4:13 Podcast: Can I Be Part of Racial Healing? With Derwin Gray [Episode 207]

Derwin Gray: A lot of times we think the supremacy of Christ is simply he's Lord, he's King, he's God. That's true. But the application of that is since Jesus is Lord King, and since Jesus clothes us all in his righteousness, covers us all in his blood, there is no reason for me to boast in my political party, there's no reason for me to boast in my ethnicity, there's no reason for me to boast in my country of origin, there's only a need to boast in Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: If you're like me, you long to see hurts healed, wrongs corrected, and distrust replaced with trust in each other. The good news is that the Bible has a lot to say about how to heal what divides us. So on today's 4:13 Podcast, author and pastor Derwin Gray is going to walk us through Scripture, and he's going to show us the heart of God, how God from the very beginning envisioned a reconciled, multi-ethnic family living in community, reflecting God's beauty in this world. Sounds good, right?

Well, what are we waiting for? K.C., cue the intro.

K.C. Wright: Let's do this. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength.

Now, welcome your host. She's a spitfire from heaven. I always want to introduce you in different ways.

Jennifer Rothschild: Spitfire.

K.C. Wright: She's caffeinated and cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, she is.

K.C. Wright: She's --

Jennifer Rothschild: Wearing yoga pants and no makeup, Jennifer Rothschild. Yay. Okay.

K.C. Wright: Okay. Would you please make welcome, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, we are super glad you're here today. Boy, I'm really pumped, got to be honest, K.C. Really pumped about this conversation.

K.C. Wright: I am so happy that we are doing a podcast on this topic. You share a very tender story on your upcoming Amos Bible study about what we're talking about today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So -- listen, Amos, it should have just released. You know what is interesting, K.C., we had to push back the Amos release because of a paper shortage because of the pandemic --

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and supply chains and all that.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm not sure where you live if it's available yet for you. But if it's not, it will be very soon, because this is the release time. But, yeah, the book is called "Amos." The subtitle is, "An Invitation to the Good Life." So it's really a study of the Book of Amos. And what I've done is I've taken all those condemnations in Amos and I've turned them into invitations. Like, what if Israel had accepted God's invitation to seek him and live? Well, then they would have avoided all those condemnations. So what I do in the book, in the Bible study of Amos, is we flip those condemnations into invitations so that we can live the God Life, which is the Good Life.

Okay. But within it, I deal with some of the real difficult things that were being dealt with in Amos' day. Like, there were people who are being oppressed. The poor were being exploded. Exploded. They weren't being exploded. They were being exploited. Sorry about that, everybody.

K.C. Wright: We are live.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. We're not editing that.

K.C. Wright: No, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: Too much trouble. Okay, you get the point. Anyway...

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, as I was studying Amos, there were some pictures from my life that came to me that I realized have been super influential. And I won't tell all of them right now. But just one of them, K.C., that was so troubling to me -- and it's so fitting for this conversation today, and it will probably explain to you why I'm so very tender to what Derwin and I talked about. I was maybe 16 or 17 years old. And for those of you who don't know my story, I had already lost the majority of my eyesight. So I'm blind now. But at that point I was legally blind, but, I mean, for all practical purposes, I saw shadows. So really there was nothing useful in my line of vision. The only difference was I just didn't see dark; I still had some light perception.

All right. So I'm shopping with my mom, and we were school shopping, and so we had a bunch of bags. And my mom was going to go to the car, and so she said to me, you know, "Sit here." It was one of those -- you know, those, like, little stands where a mannequin is sitting on top? It's probably about three feet tall. So I'm sitting there in front of this mannequin with, like, 12 bags surrounding me. And I was not very far from the mall exit. Okay. So my mom leaves. I hear the door open of someone coming into the mall. And instinctively, because I knew I had all these bags, I didn't know where they were, I started pulling bags toward me because I didn't know if they were in the aisle, if I was going to be in the way. Okay, that's honestly what was going on. And then I hear this voice. And he's a young man and he says, "You wouldn't have done that if I were white." Yeah.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I was so stunned. Now, he had no idea that I was blind. He had no idea that I could not see him. I was not moving those packages because I was threatened by him or because he was black --

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- it was because I just didn't want my stuff to be in the way. But he had no idea.

K.C. Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So at that point, I'm too young -- I'm just processing a million things at once, and I was stunned. But I was like, oh, my gosh. You know, I'll be honest, at first I was like, wait a minute, don't mischaracterize me. I don't even see you. I didn't have a chance to be prejudice, right?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But here's the thing, K.C. As I have rewound that story in my mind's eye thousands of times, what I really feel over it is a sense of lament. What did that young man endure in his life --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that his first response when a white woman moved her bags was that --

K.C. Wright: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- he was a threat. Right? That to me is heartbreaking. That to me is worth lamentation. And I also look and think, you know, my blind eyes didn't give me a chance to have a response based on cultural bias or prejudice, but I'm not saying I would have been beyond it. It's been a very healthy, difficult picture for me to revisit. And so what it says to me is there are broken things in our culture, but Jesus is the Way and he has made us family.

And I think one of the most powerful things about Derwin Gray is how he really is, from a biblical perspective, helping us be the unified family that God intended. So anyway, I want you -- of course, yes, check out the Amos Bible study. We'll have a link on the show notes. But I also want you to check out Derwin's book. And we'll tell you more about it after the conversation.

But, K.C., let's introduce one of my new favorite pastors, Derwin Gray.

K.C. Wright: Yes, he is the man. Dr. Derwin Gray is the founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church, a multi-ethnic, multi-generational community just south of Charlotte, North Carolina. He has written several books, including "God, Do You Hear Me?" and the best-selling book, "The Good Life."

Dr. Gray and his wife, Vicki, have been married since 1992 and have two adult children. Here's a fun fact. Pastor Derwin played professional football --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he did.

K.C. Wright: -- in the NFL. Five years with the Indianapolis Colts and one year with the Carolina Panthers.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's cool.

K.C. Wright: That is so cool, since I used to live in Indiana.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go.

K.C. Wright: And I'll tell you what, the Colts becomes a cult that you just have to be a part of if you lived in the state. All right?

Now, settle in because you are about to hear a great conversation based on Derwin's latest book, "How to Heal Our Racial Divide." Here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Derwin, let's jump right into your book, because I find your book so fascinating and exciting because of the healing potential in it. So let's start with this. You define the difference between race and ethnicity. Okay? So talk to us why this distinction matters. Why is it important for a right understanding and application of the Bible?

Derwin Gray: Yes. Well, okay, so there's only one race, the human race, that -- all of humanity is the human, quote/unquote, race. But within the human race is an array of beautiful ethnicities. And ethnicity deals with culture and language and historical journeying through time. And so when you read throughout the Scriptures, you'll see things like the Egyptians, the Jews, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Romans, the Babylonians. Those are different ethnicities within the human race. So biologically there's only one race, the human race.

Now, coming out of the European Enlightenment, race as a social construct was developed with a hierarchy to put Europeans on top of that race, which was one of the fuels for the transatlantic slave trade, and so it became a way to categorize people and dehumanize people. Whereas I believe the Gospel levels the playing field and says we're all made in the image of God, and when we come to Christ, we're all clothed in Christ. This doesn't obliterate our ethnic distinctions, it actually empowers us to celebrate them, that we celebrate our ethnic distinctions as an aspect of God's creatus genius to display his glory to the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that. The foot of the cross, perfectly level. Yet God made us -- he allowed us to be born into these different ethnicities, which involves different colors of skin, so let's just go there. Because you talk in your book about colorblind theology. And so I'm curious, how has that messed with us? How has it kept us from getting further down this road of reconciliation? Because we are definitely not there yet.

Derwin Gray: Yeah. You know, I get the sentiment, particularly from our white siblings in Christ, to say, "Well, I'm colorblind." And underneath it is, "Well, I'm not, quote/unquote, prejudice." And what I want to encourage people to do is not be colorblind, but to be color blessed. And here's why. In every ethnicity and culture is the image of God. And when we say we're colorblind, we're actually muting some of the creative genius of God. And when we mute the creative genius of God, we're the ones who lose out, and thus our humanity is shrunken, not expanded. And so to be color blessed is an example of Revelation 5:9, the new heavens and new earth with glorified resurrected bodies, male and female, of every nation, tribe, and tongue. It is a colorful family.

And so also when we say we're colorblind, it kind of acts as like a spiritual sleeping aid. Because we go, well, if I'm colorblind, then I don't really have to think about the injustices that happen to people of color. So let me give you an example. Our church is probably 55 to 58 percent white, and everything else after that. And some of our white members will adopt black children. And particularly with little boys, when they go from 3, 4 and 5, they're, like, cute, but 15, 16, they become a threat. And those parents will come to me and say, you know, "Pastor, we just didn't know that racism and prejudice was this bad until we saw the way our adopted son was treated in comparison to our biological white son. We just didn't know." And, of course, you know, you give empathy, you give compassion, but then I say, "How could you have not known? We've been telling you for so long."

And so the reason why it was known is because those families now are approximate to the pain. So proximity to pain makes you to start caring. And what I want to try to do through my book "How to Heal the Racial Divide" is to say let's begin to see each other as brothers and sisters and the pain doesn't have to knock on your door for you to care about it. We should care about it because we're brothers and sisters in God's colorful family. And what will happen is we'll begin to love more.

And when you think about it, Jennifer, it is all rooted in the Gospel. Could you imagine in eternity the Father, Son, and Spirit know that human beings are going to sin and make a mess of things, and Jesus tells the Father and Holy Spirit, "Hey, I'm not going to go because sin is not my problem. I'm holy, I'm perfect, I'm not going to go." Well, no. Love means you go into problems that are not your own, with the solution in your hand.

And so Jesus sets the model for us. Jesus gives us the power to actually model and live out what he did for us. That someone else's pain becomes my pain and that fuels me to love. So healing the racial divide is really about a deeper understanding of love, and I'm hoping that people are willing to walk in that power to accomplish this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, to be willing to take it personally. Because you're an African American man; I'm a white woman. I hear this and I hear the story of the adopted child. And so this teenage boy turns 16 and then it becomes very personal. So a similar thing happened in my life in that my son's roommate in college was African American. We went to visit their family at one point -- very wealthy family -- and his mom was describing to me how they bought their son this smackdaddy, like, fancy car. I don't even remember what it is. But it was something, you know, really fancy. And then she says to me, "So" -- and she says this in the same breath, like it's just exactly what you would do. "So we took him and the car to the police station and showed all the officers and introduced him." And I remember sitting across from her, with our sons being the same age -- hers is black, mine is white -- and thinking, I would never in a million years as a white woman think I would have to take my son to show the officers, for his own protection, because he's driving a fancy car. It broke my heart into a million pieces. And that was one of the first times, I think, my heart broke enough for me to be able to take it personally.

And I want my white brothers and sisters who are hearing this to be vulnerable, be willing. Don't be defensive. Don't try to explain something we really don't understand, but instead enter in and love like Jesus. I want to learn this, Pastor. I want to learn it so much, and I want us to love like Jesus. So I'm so grateful for this book, I truly am. I'm so grateful for what you've done here.

Well, let's just -- speaking of -- you just mentioned the Gospel, you mentioned Christ, so let's go to The Book, the Bible. Because you talk about in the book that Jesus first revealed his identity publicly to a Samaritan woman. Okay? So why is that significant to you?

Derwin Gray: Oh, gosh, it's so significant. First of all, in the first century, Jews and Samaritans had a 700-year ethnic feud. In 722 B.C., the Babylonians captured the northern ten tribes of Israel, and out of the Babylonians and the northern ten tribes of Israel came the Samaritans. And so there was a historical racial feud, religious feud. And so when Jesus in John 4:4 tells his Jewish disciples, "We must go through Samaria," that would have been unheard of. Jews of that day avoided Samaria because the Samaritans were there. It was deeply contentious. Deep hate. So Jesus breaks down that barrier. And then next -- a Jewish rabbi, number one, would not be in Samaria.

Number two, he would not be talking to a woman in public. Yet Jesus meets this woman at the well, who had been married five times and divorced. And I want to add, I don't think she was an adulteress, I actually think she was the victim of cruel men. Because if she was an adulteress, she could have been stoned to death. I think she was the victim of cruel men, and the man she was living with now was simply a means of survival.

And so Jesus breaks down the racial sin, he breaks down the misogynist sin, and then he looks into the eyes of a woman who's living in sin and he offers her living water. And eventually she comes to see that he is the Jewish Messiah. And what does she do? She runs to the city of Sychar and she tells the other Samaritans. And then they come to Jesus and they say we believe not only because of her words, but because we've seen with our own eyes. So here's Jewish Jesus just knocking down the walls of racism, misogyny, and sin, which is racism and misogyny, to the point that these Jews and Samaritans are reconciled.

And here's what's beautiful. The first person that Jesus tells that he's the Jewish Messiah is a Samaritan woman. And what is the Samaritan? A Jew and a Gentile in one body. What's the church supposed to be? A Jew and a Gentile in one body. What is the church described as? The Bride of Christ. What was the Samaritan? She was a woman. And then what is the church supposed to do? Join Jesus on making disciples of all ethnic groups. So in the Samaritan woman is redemption, the multi-ethnic church, and the mission of God revealed right there.

And let me add this too. I was raised by strong women. I'm married to an incredibly strong woman, my wife. Women have been carrying to church since her beginning. Think about this. After Jesus was crucified and buried, who was at the empty tomb first? Women. So the women were apostles to the apostles that Jesus had rose from the dead.

And so even this message of how to heal our racial of divide, I want to encourage thousands of women to get this book, read it in small groups, and then disciple your husbands, disciple your sons, disciple your daughters. Women have so much influence and gifting to nurture. And so I want to encourage women. I wrote this book for you. You have the power to influence and shape your family. Women get men to read books and women pour into their children, that out of you could come the healing that this generation needs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, thank you for saying that. Amen. Amen.

All right, let me ask you this question. So since we -- like, I love that story about the Samaritan woman. I trust the Bible. And so if we trust the Bible, that means we're accepting the supremacy of Christ. All right? So how does accepting the supremacy of Christ help us in healing this racial divide?

Derwin Gray: Yeah, I think the first thing is we have to recognize the supremacy of Christ. A lot of times we think the supremacy of Christ is simply he's Lord, he's King. he's God. That's true. But the application of that is since Jesus is Lord King, and since Jesus clothes us all in his righteousness, covers us all in his blood, there is no reason for me to boast in my political party, there's no reason for me to boast in my ethnicity, there's no reason for me to boast in my country of origin, there's only a need to boast in Christ. And so what happens is is when Jesus' supremacy rules and reigns in us, we begin to look at brothers and sisters as though they're people that Jesus died for.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Derwin Gray: How in the world can I look down on someone when at the foot of the cross we all need grace?

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Derwin Gray: Grace allows us to see each other in a way that honors Christ. And what has happened over the last 20 years, and specifically over the last six years, is we have allowed politics to divide us. And one of the reasons why I think we've done that is because we're looking for Jesus, and oftentimes what we're getting is simply do more, do less, don't do this, don't do that. And so we've lost hope in the Gospel when we weren't really hearing the Gospel, and we've put our hope in politics, either the right or the left. Voting is very important, but the greatest vote you can ever make is to say, "Jesus, you are Lord and King."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Derwin Gray: And I'm not going to be partisan, I'm going to be a disciple of Jesus. And I'm going to love my brothers and sisters across political, ethnic, and socioeconomic lines, because the blood of Jesus is greater than anything that can divide us. So it's important that we actually begin to see each other as the body of Jesus. That when you look at a black Christian, a white Christian, an Asian Christian, indigenous Christian, Latino Christian, you are looking at Jesus because we are the body of Christ clothed in his righteousness, soaked in his blood arena.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Okay. And, you know, as I hear you describing that too, Dr. Gray, what I hear is this call for humility. I mean, there cannot be an acknowledgement of the supremacy of Christ and any pride remaining in us. And so when we live humble, then we really do see each other from the vantage point at the foot of the cross.

Derwin Gray: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let me move on. Let me go back to your book for a second. Because in your book you say that the real problem in healing this racial divide is sin, and even demonic powers. So if that is true, how can that impact the way we relate to each other, especially, like you just mentioned, when we might disagree with each other?

Derwin Gray: So the first thing I would say is somehow, some way, this topic of racism and racial injustice has gotten moved out of the category of sin and put into political camps. Sin means to miss the mark. And the mark is to love your neighbor as you love yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Derwin Gray: And so we know every human being is born broken and sinful and we know that there are dark demonic powers. And because there are dark demonic powers and human beings are born broken, there's going to be sin. And as a result of sin, you have prejudice and racism and broken systems as such, and so, therefore, we need to expand our discipleship to include these aspects.

Let me give you an example. So when NFL players were taking a knee during the national anthem, a lot of my white siblings that are part of our church were upset at that. And they said, "Well, Pastor, I can't believe they're protesting the flag." And I said, "Well, the players have made it clear they're not protesting the flag, they're bringing awareness to racial injustice and things like that around the country." And they would go on to say, "Well, my great grandfather fought in World War II, and that dishonors him. What do you say about that?" And I'll say, "Well, I'm thankful your great great grandfather fought in World War II. I love my country." I said, "But don't forget that there were 1.2 million black GIs that fought in World War II." They went all the way to Nazi Germany to defeat racists in Germany, only to come back to racism in America, segregation, Jim Crow. And don't forget this: 1.2 million black GIs did not get the GI Bill, which created the modern-day suburban movement that 1.2 million black GIs and their descendants missed out on trillions of dollars of economic * advantagement from owning homes. Jesse Owens, who destroyed Hitler's master race in the 1936 Olympics didn't even get a phone call from FDR. He couldn't even go through the front door of the hotels that were celebrating his dominant performance. And so when we look at history, we must look at it not just through eyes of people who look like us, but through the eyes of our brothers and sisters as well.

And my fourth great grandfather, Moses Davis, fought in the Civil War for the Virginia Colored Calvary Fourth Regiment against the Confederacy. So in my blood is patriotism, liberty and justice for all. Not some, but all. So this goes back to this Gospel humility of Philippians 2:3, "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but consider others better than yourself." Look not only out for your own interests, but look out for the interests of others.

And so a lot of our discipleship is very consumptive and self-absorbed, whereas true Gospel cruciform discipleship is I'm a humble servant saying, "Hey I want to see this from your eyes. Hey, I want to see this from your perspective. Hey, what do Native Americans think about this?"

And one of the things that's exhausting, Jennifer, is that for people of color, it is exhausting always having to defend that prejudice, racism, and systemic injustice is real. It gets exhausting. Not only does it happen, but then you have to build a 12-point case --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

Derwin Gray: -- to prove to people that it happens. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I hate that.

Derwin Gray: It is exhausting. And in the family of God, we should be the ones who are listening. But the reason we don't listen is because of political idolatry, whether it's on the left or the right. We're not elephants or donkeys, we're the party of the lamb.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Well, and I think sometimes too, Pastor, we don't listen. Well, I speak for myself -- okay? -- as a white person I think sometimes in general, when I look at what I hear around me, sometimes a white person may not feel as comfortable listening because they're ashamed or they feel like they're going to be shamed, or they'll say the wrong thing or they'll look back and go, "Yeah, but if I were there, you know, so many years ago, I wouldn't have done that."

So that leads me to this question, because I think this is a hard thing for some people, especially some white people -- okay? -- let's just be honest. Why is it important, then, that we should all mourn these past sins: slavery, segregation, the systemic junk that has occurred that has caused what we have now? Okay, even if we didn't commit them, why do we need to mourn them?

Derwin Gray: Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. So Matthew 5:4 says this, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted." One of the things that I do with my white congregation members is I encourage them, "Your identity is in Jesus, his life, his death, his resurrection. You are securely in his hands." When people of color talk about the past atrocities of America, don't be shamed because you didn't commit it, you didn't do it. There's nothing for you to be ashamed about. That's not your sin. So, therefore, we can look back together and go, that was awful, that was terrible. But we want to bring the Kingdom of God to earth, so that's never going to happen on my watch again.

Now, also acknowledge that while the sin of the past gave me advantages in the present, for example, like the GIs who got the GI Bill -- right? -- now that you know that, it's like don't be guilty about it, leverage it for the good of others.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Yeah.

Derwin Gray: But if your identity is in Jesus has an American flag wrapped around him, number one, it's idolatrous and it's wrong, and you're never going to be able to look back at history with sober eyes. And history repeats itself when we don't learn. Who would have ever thought that American GIs would have gone to Nazi Germany to fight the racist Nazis and in 2017 Nazis are marching in the United States of America?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Derwin Gray: And so what I want to say to the Christians listening, this is not something you can sit out. This is not something you can say that's someone else's problem, right? Because those Nazis that were marching were somebody's sons and daughters. What did their churches teach them? So if you don't teach them, the devil's going to do it; if you don't teach them, late night partisan propaganda news is going to do that. So it's important that you have a resource where you can pour into the next generation. So don't feel guilty, don't feel ashamed. Acknowledge there are some things that you got as a result of it, but mourn the past and join your brothers and sisters in creating a present that reflects the Kingdom of God. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And when we mourn, we are comforted. And with the comfort we receive, we comfort others. I think anytime we are confronted with something that makes us uncomfortable, we got to sit with that discomfort. Instead of immediately giving an excuse or immediately feeling shame or immediately being defensive, let's just sit with it a second and ask the question, why am I so comfortable with this? I think we don't do it enough, Pastor, so I think your book gives us a safe place to process this.

And so I'm curious, as you were describing some of that -- even like in 2017, Nazis marching, right? And there's been so much just terrible racial unrest. So what gives you hope, right? Because if we've had this history and we've had this disunity, what gives you hope for now?

Derwin Gray: Well, what gives me hope is that the tomb is still empty. And as long as the tomb is empty, Hope himself, who has a name -- his name is Jesus -- is ruling and reigning. And because Jesus is ruling and reigning, and because he said the gates of hell would not prevail against my church, because there's a new heavens and a new earth that's going to come. And if the same power of the Holy Spirit that brought about the church is in the church now, I'm hopeful, because of Jesus, that this book is a manifesto of hope. It's a book that allows us to see how big and how great Jesus is and it's a book that equips us to be the change that we know we need to see.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I'm just telling you right now, if I'm ever in your church, your deacons might ask me to leave, because I can barely sit still without amening every two seconds with everything you say.

Derwin Gray: You would fit right in, sis.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good. 'Cause I love what you're telling us here.

All right. But we got to get to our last question, so here we go. So in a very practical way, what can we do to be peacemakers and bridge builders in our communities? Just give us something very practical we can do when we stop listening to this podcast.

Derwin Gray: Yeah, here's something very practical to do. Number one, pray and ask God to show you your ethnic blind spots.

Number two, sit at somebody's dinner table of another ethnicity, or have them come to your home. That you want a colorful table and you want to spend time with people of different colors and cultures, not to study them like they're under a microscope, but to love them, to learn from them, to be with them. And what happens is proximity creates intimacy, and intimacy means "into me you see." And when you begin to look into each other's soul, you'll find more in common than you don't.

K.C. Wright: Well, there you go. What a fantastic conversation. I'm going to listen to it again, share it with a lot of my friends. God has really gifted this man of God, Pastor Derwin, with wisdom and just an incredible way to communicate truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I agree. He's loving, he's logical, he's biblical. And like I said, if I were in his church, I am quite sure that a deacon probably would remove me from shouting "Amen" one too many times. "Woman second row, stop shouting." I can hear it now.

K.C. Wright: "Security. Security."

I bet you were shouting "Amen" too as you listened. So that means you need more of this. You need his book, "How to Heal Our Racial Divide." And we will connect you to Derwin, his book, his church, all you need, at the show notes right now at 413podcast.com/207. What a gift those show notes are.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they are.

K.C. Wright: Seriously. Because you're thinking, oh, I got to get that, I want to remember that. And guess what? It's all right there.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's right there. And there's also going to be that transcript there. So you can revisit this in writing, and that way you can review all of it, because it really was a good conversation. Lots to think about.

All right, our dear people, thanks for your kind reviews and your ratings. And if you haven't yet, please leave us a review and a rating on the app that you're listening to right now. We say it all the time because it is true, it makes a difference when you leave a review.

K.C. Wright: It does. And we're over 800 reviews. Who's counting?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: We are.

Jennifer Rothschild: Around 827.

K.C. Wright: We are. We're actually counting.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it's like 860 now.

K.C. Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, I'm not counting. Keep going.

K.C. Wright: Okay. All right. It makes a difference in our hearts, for sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Obviously.

K.C. Wright: It encourages me and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: Well, until next time, our peoples, do something to make a difference. Reach out, be a part of healing our racial divide. You can because you can do all things through Christ, who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

K.C. Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: You absolutely can.

K.C. Wright: You really can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord.

Are you an amener when you listen to pastors?

K.C. Wright: Okay, so --

Jennifer Rothschild: 'Cause I am.

K.C. Wright: Actually, we had this conversation yesterday driving home from church.

Jennifer Rothschild: No way.

K.C. Wright: Eliana was saying that our Worship Pastor Ben, she enjoys it when he is -- you can hear him from the back going, "Come on, let's go."

Jennifer Rothschild: "Come on."

K.C. Wright: "Right on." And I'm telling you, as a speaker --

Jennifer Rothschild: Doesn't it help?

K.C. Wright: Oh, it helps so much.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.