4:13 Podcast: Can I Stop Overthinking? With Anne Bogel [Episode 138]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need. If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. COVID-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing. And that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name. So go to 413podcast.com/compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/compassion. And now it's time for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on the 4:13.

We've all been there: stuck in a cycle of what-ifs, plagued by indecision, paralyzed by that fear of getting it wrong. Nobody wants to live a life of constant overthinking, but it doesn't feel like it's easy to fix. It feels like something that we're just wired to do, right? Well, today, our guest, Anne Bogel, she has an answer for you, and that answer is no. Today, she's going to show you how you can break those thought patterns that are repetitive and unhealthy and you can replace them with thought patterns that will bring just lots more joy and peace into your life. So 4:13'ers, today is the day you stop overthinking. Let's do it, K.C.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life because you can do all things through Christ, who strengthens you. Now welcome your host, a woman who is always up for a lively conversation about dead authors. This is true and a little morbid.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is so true.

KC Wright: Would you please make welcome my sister, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, welcome. I'm glad you're here. I'm Jennifer, here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13, and I'm still giggling because it's true, KC. I am a verified book geek. I am. And I happen to have a preference for dead authors. Some of my friends who are authors are like: Do I have to die before you'll read my book? I'm like: Well, I do have some exceptions. Anyway, I am a lover of anything that involves words and lets me learn and grow and escape and imagine, you know. So, you know, I use Audible. And by the way, if you have never checked out Audible, you can get a free trial subscription with Audible. Just a little momentary plug here. Go to 413podcast.com/audible and you can get a free book and a free trial. No obligations. So, anyway, I am a member of Audible. I have been for years, but this year was the first time that I got an email that had a review of all the books that I had read in 2020 last year.

KC Wright: Oh, wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it was fascinating. Well, at least I thought it was fascinating. We'll see if you do, because I thought I would tell you, because I was a little bit surprised by some of it. So I thought I would tell you and see if you find it fun or interesting, okay. So, and by the way, because of blindness, that's all I do is listen. I use Audible, but I also use the Talking Books library from the Library of Congress. So, okay, so here's what Audible told me, though, in my email. In 2020, I listened to 104 books.

KC Wright: Oh, I'm impressed with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's easier when you're listening because you can multitask.

KC Wright: Yes, I get that, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That was a total of 1,002 listening hours.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Okay, so 249 of those hours were nonfiction. Okay, and 853 of those hours were glorious escape fiction. That's how I leave my house. I listen to fiction books. Okay, so I began last year in 2020. I began with a book called A Gentleman in Moscow by Amor Towles. And then I ended in December of 2020 with a book by Anne Lamott. It's a classic on writing called Bird by Bird. So that's kind of what, you know, where I started and where I ended. And then, of course, there were many in between.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: But in 2020, here's some more stats. The authors, they told me even the most, the authors that I listen to the most, and you could tell this was during pandemic and sheltering in place. Okay, John Grisham.

KC Wright: Oh, hello.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, C.S. Lewis.

KC Wright: Oh, hello.

Jennifer Rothschild: Philippa Gregory. She does a lot on historical fiction, which is very historically accurate for the British monarchy. And then I did a lot on Anne Lamott because I'm learning from her. She's just a really good example for me, learning, writing stuff. Okay, so, but there were also some very interesting surprises that I listen to books that I listen to that were like unique. I didn't expect, okay, that really captured me. One of them we've had him on the podcast was All Things New by John Eldredge. That was such an encouraging book, you guys. I loved it, All Things New. One that was a memoir that was fascinating about a diamond thief. It's called Diamond Doris by Doris Payne. That was fascinating. I also, because I'm such a British fanatic, you remember, you know, the series on Netflix, The Crown. Well, it was Princess Margaret's, Lady In Waiting, her name is Anne Glenconner.

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And she wrote her memoir. It was called Lady In Waiting. That was fascinating. Then I read this one called "Breathe" by James Nestor. And it was just on the whole science and all about breathing and it was fascinating. And then I did read one book by Stephen King, you guys, this probably took up a lot of hours. His books are very long. About a pandemic. It was old from the 70s. It's called The Stand. Oh, my goodness. So I'm one of those who reads about the pandemic during the pandemic. Then one more that was really fascinating was called Unfollow.

KC Wright: Huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that was by Megan Phelps-Roper. She was part of the church in, oh, you know, the Baptist Church that was super (anti) they protest at funerals and stuff, anyway. Fascinating story of her life and faith. Okay, and then I'll tell you two more little things, because people may not be as interested in this as I am. I get that. Two more books that I read for the umpteenth time, because these characters in these books are like my old friends, The Accidental Tourist by Anne Tyler. I am just so charmed by that story and those characters, and then The Help by Kathryn Stockett.

KC Wright: Oh, The Help. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I reread those last year during the pandemic because they're like, you know, comforting and my old friends. Anyway, so those were just a sampling, and I just thought it was fascinating, you know. So I would love to know, my people out there, if you've enjoyed some books. Please let us know. KC, what about you? Any books that, I know you're not quite as available to read as I am.

KC Wright:: Listen to you, little miss smarty britches.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I just love books. I just love books. But what about you?

KC Wright: Well, I read a book last year, a children's book called The Wonky Donkey. All right, let's get on with the podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nothing wrong with that.

KC Wright: Hey, years ago, someone loaned me a book on integrity, and I never returned it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Okay, all right. All right. We're moving on. I could tell where this is going and we're not going there, okay? What we are going to do is we are going to move toward our guest. Okay, you are going to love our guest. Anne is our guest today, and she loves to approach old books, you know, old familiar ideas from new and fresh angles. She's got this blog called Modern Mrs. Darcy, you know, with a nod to the Jane Austen book. And it's not just a book blog, but she does write often about books and reading. And in fact, her book lists are among her most popular posts. So, she's also got a podcast called What Should I Read Next? which is really good and I highly recommend, my friends. So, she says it's all about literary matchmaking or bibliotherapy, which I think is fun. So, since I'm such a book geek, obviously, I was looking forward to this conversation and I think you're going to really enjoy it. And by the way, stick around to the end. She's going to end with some book recommendations, too.

KC Wright: Well, then we need to hear this. So, let me introduce her. Anne Bogel is the author of Reading People and I'd Rather Be Reading and this latest book we're talking about today. She's been featured in The Oprah magazine, Real Simple, The Washington Post, and many, many more. Her popular book lists and reading guides have established her as a tastemaker among readers, authors, and publishers, and she lives in Louisville, Kentucky, with her husband, four children, and a yellow lab named Daisy.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, Anne, I have followed you because I happen to be just a book geek myself. So I love what you do. But, I got to be honest, this book title about overthinking really caught my eye because I can relate. In fact, I think there's a lot of us who can relate because we've all been stuck in that spin cycle of just thinking and overthinking. And so I'm curious, as you were working on this book, did you discover anything that surprised you about it? And I'm curious how universal this is. Does it affect a lot of people? And if so, how does it affect us?

Anne Bogel: Oh, goodness. Well, first of all, it seems so obvious now to me because the connection is so clear. But yes, I was constantly surprised by all the ways overthinking infiltrates our lives. And you know, what I didn't see until I began to understand the framework better is what specifically was driving overthinking in many of our lives. But specifically my life, for example, perfectionism is a huge source of overthinking. And I've called myself a recovering perfectionist for 10 or so years.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Bogel: I thought that I had mostly beat back those instincts, but once I understood the connection, I can see so many days my tendency to overthink things because of that latent perfectionism. And yes, this isn't a universal issue, but the overwhelming majority of us do struggle with overthinking in some way, shape, or form. And it's funny like some people consider themselves to be pervasive overthinkers, and some people are totally fine, except when it comes to something specific, like money or relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. So it might be targeted toward one thing. And some people, they're just like, they are not discriminators when it comes to overthinking.

Anne Bogel: Yes, that's a funny and accurate way to put it.

Jennifer Rothschild: So here's what I'm curious about. Somebody might be listening and they wonder: Okay, well then how do I know if I'm in overthinker? Am I overthinking? How do I know?

Anne Bogel: That's funny because so many times what we're doing in our own life seems normal, because if we haven't talked to other people, if we haven't read anything, we may not know that there is a different way or that other people approach things differently. The definition I keep coming back to, that's broad enough to encompass it, but specific enough to help us recognize overthinking when it pops up, is that the common thread through the different kinds of overthinking are when we're having thoughts that are repetitive, unhealthy, and unhelpful. If your brain is hard at work, but it's not accomplishing anything, you may be overthinking. If it's exhausting and it makes you feel bad, it may be overthinking.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really good because those are standards. We can recognize those. We can recognize the manifestation and the outcome. So that's good to help us to identify with the sources. So in your book, you write that part of overcoming this is to be able to change your negative thought patterns. And so, what's the first step of doing that? Is that partly just recognizing?

Anne Bogel: Yeah, absolutely. If you don't know that it's a problem you won't seek to, you have no reason to change it. It's just part of your regular life and so many of our thought patterns are ones we go into automatically. And there is nothing wrong with that if they're healthy and if they're helpful. But if they're not, the first thing to do is pinpoint which ones are.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, and so once a woman or anyone pinpoints this area, right, that they're doing this, I would think it might show up also in this second-guessing. Like I know some people who are chronic second-guessers and I see their misery. That's not one of my tendencies. I'm one of these targeted overthinkers, okay. I'm not a second-thinker. When I finally make the decision done, I'm done. I don't even care if it's bad. I'm done with it. I'm not going to second guess it. But...

Anne Bogel: That's sounds lovely.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right.

Anne Bogel: To have that as your default setting.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, but I know a lot of people aren't that way, so I see their misery and I'm wondering how could a person who really second guesses a lot, I mean, how do they get out of that misery? What can they do about that?

Anne Bogel: Well, first of all, I'm not giving the only ways, I'm giving specific ways. But something that really helped me, I already mentioned perfectionism. Something that helped me was to recognize that so many times when I am second-guessing a decision, it's that I'm applying the lens of perfectionism to something that happened in the past. I'm thinking: How could I have done that better? How could I have done that more? How could I have done it more efficiently? How could I, you know, so I could, I could trick myself into thinking, "Oh, I'm just thinking of what to do next time." And it's not that there isn't a place for that. But first, some decisions don't merit that kind of reflection. And also, if it's making me feel bad, if I'm not just reflecting, but maybe perseverating on it, dwelling on it to an unhealthy degree, what would I find personally is that I'm applying that perfectionism to something that happened in the past instead of something that's happening right now in front of me. Another thing that many people find to be useful for all kinds of different, overthinking and beyond, is to think, "Okay, if your best friend were in this situation, what would you tell them to do?" So if my best friend told me, "Oh, I did this on Tuesday and I just can't believe it," I might be like, "Uh, make a phone call" or "Are you serious?" Like, that's not worth it. Get on with your life. If my best friend told me that, I would believe her. But I find that we're harder on ourselves than we are on other people. So if you can help, just get a fresh perspective and think about it a little more objectively and not so much caught up in your own head, that can also be the key to unlock the thing that's got a hold of you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good, Anne, because we do tend to live in our own echo chamber. And so our thought then affirms that thought and then we think it back again and it's all just totally affirming. So you're right, we got to have a different voice interrupting that. And that's a good strategy. So I'm wondering, do you have some other strategies for interrupting that process of overthinking? Besides, you know, what would, what would a friend say or that kind of thing? Or what would I say to a friend?

Anne Bogel: Yeah, first of all, that word you used, interrupt, is so good because so often there's some law of thermodynamics, like you will just keep on going down the course you're on unless an outside force comes in and says, "You got to stop what you're doing."

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm. Hmm.

Anne Bogel: Something I love is the metaphor of changing the channel. Like if your brain is keyed in to a certain radio station that you are finding to be unhealthy, unhelpful, repetitive, make you miserable, not accomplishing anything, you can visualize. This is what I'm listening to now. Let's flip to a different program. Just understanding that visual is really helpful for others, for many people. Something else you can do is move your body to move your mind. It's so true that just getting a sometimes literal change of scenery by getting up and taking yourself outside, doing something else, doing some jumping jacks, taking a walk literally gives you a new perspective and a new outlook. So taking advantage of that can be super, super helpful. And finally, like, distract yourself. I know many people don't like this at first. They bristle because they're like, you know, I'm not a kid, that sounds kind of juvenile. Like I should do something more measured and deliberate than just going for a simple distraction. But it works. The research shows it works. It's like writing out a craving. Tetris, actually, something they've studied is a very effective distraction because it occupies many different areas of your brain at once. But if you can call a friend, pay a bill, pick up a book, put on a show, listen to a song, take the dog outside, any of those things, help you interrupt the negative thought you're having.

Jennifer Rothschild: I really appreciate that, because that's something I do. Like I told you earlier, I love books and so I will call that my fiction vacation. Okay, reality is too much right now. I'm going on a fiction vacation.

Anne Bogel: I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I literally will put in an audiobook and get on the treadmill. That's a recent habit. I don't want it to sound like I'm super disciplined. That's a recent habit. Before it was sit on the couch with a fiction book in my ears. But the point is, you're right because it demands your attention, so it takes it off of what you're overthinking. This is super practical, Anne. This is why I wanted to have this conversation. I really, I think a lot of us live here and aren't aware of it, and I appreciate how you're exposing it so that we can get free from it. So one of the ways you fight overthinking is to make the good stuff a habit. I thought this was curious. So I want you to tell us what that means. What it looks like in real life, and why is it important?

Anne Bogel: That is a great question. I find that so many times when we think about overthinking, we think about overcoming negative thought patterns, but we don't think about the good things that we can deliberately invite into our life in addition to that. So one of the most effective ways to bring good things into your life is to make a habit of it. A real practical way I found to put this into action is if I know something tiny brings me a huge amount of joy. You can create a habit or ritual around it so you can enjoy it more. Why not do the small thing that you know makes you happy? Like this morning I woke up. I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. For the first morning in maybe four months, it was below 60 degrees in the morning. And so I lit a candle on the kitchen counter, which is something I always do when it's cool outside, but not in the summer. It's a small thing, but I used to be a candle hoarder. So this was a huge shift for me. But I decided at a certain point that, you know, I don't need to worry the good stuff. Like I know lighting a candle makes me happy. It probably costs, I don't know, 15 cents for it to burn every morning for the hour. It does...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Anne Bogel: But I don't need to be stingy with the thing that brings me joy when it costs 15 cents. I can just leave it out on the counter, light it before I make the coffee. Like I decided once basically, and now I always do it. Another example. If you've seen, Don't Overthink It, there's a, there's a shopping cart full of flowers on the front. And the reason is it comes from a story that I tell in the book. But I used to really debate going, whenever I went to Trader Joe's. I love Trader Joe's. My city didn't have a Trader Joe's for a long time. When we got one, it was a big deal. But something you may know, if you visit a Trader Joe's regularly, is they have beautiful, relatively inexpensive flowers at the front of the store. And every time I go to Trader Joe's, I think, "I love fresh flowers" and also, "Do I really need them?" Like they're not practical. They don't serve a purpose. My inner maximizer, like wanting to make everything efficient, would be like, "We don't need those to get by. I would be just fine." And I could torture myself at the store, like putting them in the cart, being like, "No, I don't really need them." Taking them out of the cart, thinking, "Anne, what are you doing?" Putting them back in the cart. You know, it was just so wasteful, the amount of mental energy I decided about this. So taking us back to the good stuff, four dollar bouquets from Trader Joe's, that's good stuff. And I decided to invite that into my life on a regular basis by saying, "If I go to Trader Joe's, and it's been at least a week and I don't have peonies blooming in my yard, then I'm going to buy a small bouquet." Like done. It's just something I do.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you made one decision. You're reducing your decision fatigue and then you don't have to think about it. I love that.

Anne Bogel: And then I have permission to enjoy them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly.

Anne Bogel: They always make me happy on the kitchen counter.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. I just think you're giving us permission to follow our thoughts where they lead us and then grab them and say, "Okay, you're not the boss of me. I'm not going to let you overthink me into a funk. Instead, I'm going to hold every thought captive, as Scripture says, and and see what happens when it begins to really take shape in the light of truth." And so I just highly recommend this book, Anne, your book, Don't Overthink It. But as we finish up, one last question, because the book lover in me needs to know. If you were to recommend a couple of books to our audience, and I want you to pick a dead author and a living author, give us some good books that could provide some of that good mental distraction that'll help us.

Anne Bogel: Oh, okay, that really depends on the reader, because I find right now some people are finding a lot of solace in pandemic novels.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Bogel: And other people are like that is the last thing I want to read.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I get it. I'm reading one, but yeah, I get it.

Anne Bogel: But what I hear from readers finding solace in right now, Anne of Green Gables is a title I have heard a lot recently that readers are flocking to is a comfort read that they read in childhood and they're revisiting, or as a book that they are reading now as an adult for the first time because they're looking for something a little bit nostalgic and definitely gentle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Bogel: Another kind of book I see people turning to is a story where characters encounter hard things. But, you know, you're going to get some version of a happy ending and there's going to be a drumbeat of hope throughout. And for those, I really love the works of Marisa De los Santos. I think the one I would start with is Love Walked In.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sweet. That's great advice. Thanks so much, Anne.

Anne Bogel: It's my pleasure.

Jennifer Rothschild: This was fantastic. Thanks.

KC Wright: This was something I don't usually think about, I just do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright:: Now I need to guard myself against overthinking if I overthink.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: I always say this: three sisters that never did nothing, Woulda, Shoulda, and a Coulda.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's true. Well, I think my big takeaway is to interrupt that overthinking cycle, you know, and there's lots of ways that we can do it. So if you need a great interruption for your tendency to overthink, go ahead and pick a few ways, right now, so that you don't have to think too much about how to interrupt your overthinking. Well, that's a lot of thinking going on.

KC Wright: You can get a great summary of this on the show notes at 413podcast.com/138. Plus, we'll have links to the books and recommendations. And remember, you can read with your ears, you can get a free audiobook from Audible right now. You can get Anne's book free from Audible by simply going to 413podcast.com/audible. Or, of course, we will link you to it through the show notes. So much good stuff to think about today. Woo! It's been good.

Jennifer Rothschild: But one thing you never need to overthink is if you can do all things through Christ because you know the truth. You can whatever you face, however you're feeling, you can do all things through Christ, who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright:: Do you want to borrow a copy of my Wonkey Donkey?

Jennifer Rothschild: I want to know where the book on integrity is, you thief, you.

KC Wright: Who doesn't want to hear about a dinky, lanky, honky-tonky, winky-wonky donkey.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's good. You didn't just read it. You memorized it. It's good, KC. That was like spoken word poetry right here on the podcast.

KC Wright:: My favorite author is Dr. Seuss. So, that says a lot about me.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's a lot of good things about you.

KC Wright: There you go.