4:13 Podcast: Can I Fight Shame With the Word of God? With Scarlet Hiltibidal [Episode 307]

Scarlet Hiltibidal: One of my favorite people that I looked at was Peter. I so identify with Peter. And think about his life, his following Jesus that's recorded. All of his big mess-ups happened after he had already decided to and followed Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting. Yeah.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: And I think that that's the whole thing. It's so easy -- just like you said, you might not say, "I am struggling with shame." You might just feel awful and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Not know why.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: -- kind of enslaved. Right. You're kind of like, I'm not enslaved. Why do I feel like this? Where's my joy and peace that I'm supposed to have because I walk with Jesus? And I think it's just because we take our eyes off of the Lord and we -- again, even if we've been redeemed, we can so easily have our mind set on our own performance. And if we do that, we are going to feel ashamed.

Jennifer Rothschild: You've got the best weapon against shame, the Word of God. So today author Scarlet Hiltibidal is going to be with us to help us move beyond shame to the joy-inducing, peace-producing joy that comes from a relationship with Jesus. Scarlet is going to expose the forces of shame, give you scriptural strategies to combat them, and she is going to help all of us live in the light and in the victory of God's Word. And I need that. So don't you? Shame off us. Here we go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, hey, hey, hey. Two friends here. One topic. And I am just going to be honest. It is not zero stress. Like, I am squeezing the life out of my stress ball right now.

K.C. Wright: Which is a -- her stress ball -- I'm getting you a better one. I'm getting you one that matches you, because it's not cute enough for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It looks like a Tylenol.

K.C. Wright: It's a pill from Walgreens.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I know. But it fits so nicely in my hand, and I'm squeezing the life out of it.

K.C. Wright: She's about to rip the tar out of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because here's why. Okay, Scarlet, I love you. But that 30-second intro I did took me seven and a half minutes to record because I kept mispronouncing her name. Hiltibidal. Look, I can do it fine when I'm not trying.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But when I'm trying, I'm like, Hiltibidal. It was so stressful, y'all. Because I really do care about Scarlet, I want to say her name right.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: My people, it is Hiltibidal. Hiltibidal. See how well I can say it when I'm not trying?

K.C. Wright: I know. It's just flowing.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Anyway -- and K.C.'s like, "Jennifer, this is about no shame. Stop being so ashamed you can't say the woman's name." I'm like, hmm. Seriously, I want a Go Fund me. I just want to change your name, Scarlet, for me alone, so that I can get over the angst of saying it.

Okay, she is one of my favorite people. She really is. She's so delightful.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: If y'all haven't read her books or done her Bible studies yet, you need to, because she is the real thing. I love this girl so much. So I think we should just introduce her so we don't have to keep talking about her.

K.C. Wright: Scarlet Hitibidal is the --

Jennifer Rothschild: You forgot the L.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my word. I'd like to buy a vowel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Scarlet --

K.C. Wright: Scarlet --

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Hiltibidal.

K.C. Wright: -- Hiltibidal.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now go.

K.C. Wright: Scarlet Hiltibidal is the author of books like "You're The Most" -- oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Laughing) We are such --

K.C. Wright: Scarlet -- Scarlet Hiltibidal -- take 5,478. Here we go.

Scarlet Hiltibidal is the author of books like, "You're the Worst Person in the World," "Afraid of All the Things," and "He Numbered the Pores On My Face." She writes regularly for Parent Life magazine and She Reads Truth and enjoys speaking to women across the country about freedom and rest only available in Jesus.

Scarlet has a degree in biblical counseling and taught elementary school before she started writing. She and her husband live in NashVegas, where she loves doing sign language with her daughters, eating nachos by herself, writing for her friends, and studying stand-up comedy. This is a woman after my own heart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: She's got a passion that should be reserved for more important pursuits, right? All right. Lean back, soak in this great conversation between Jennifer and our friend, our 4:13er, Scarlet.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Scarlet, you've been on the 4:13 Podcast before, so I -- as I had talked about with K.C. before we started, this is your family now. You are a 4:13er. So welcome back home, Scarlet, I will say.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: We are really glad that you're with us. And last time you were with us, we talked about anxiety. Because that was your first Bible study. It dealt with anxiety. And now this one, the one we're going to talk about today, deals with being ashamed. Okay? So you don't mess around. You don't play in the shallow end, you go right to the deep end. So I want to know, why shame? What attracted you or made shame seem like a topic you needed to tackle?

Scarlet Hiltibidal: What drew me to that was I think that my anxiety battle led me to strive for so long. And we talked about this before. But I was just this striver for so many years as a believer, just trying to be good enough, quote, good enough for that day, check the boxes that I thought would make me a good person, even though I was doing it under the name of Jesus, you know, which doesn't make sense because that's like an opposite of what Christianity is. You know, we were called to -- made for worshiping Jesus and resting in Jesus. And when we're striving to be perfect or, you know, approved -- when we're striving to achieve something for our own glory, obviously we're going to suffer.

And so just for so long I was trying to make myself worthy, and it led to me being really stuck up feeling some days because, oh, my goodness, I'm a believer. I'm walking with Jesus, the Lord uses me to do stuff sometimes, patting myself on the back. Wrong perspective, right? Or it would lead me to just kind of fall into almost a despair when I would fail, which is so often.

And so I was really grateful to get to dive into the topic of shame, because I think -- I mean, you know, it's a huge topic, we're going to talk about it. But I think it's hard for a lot of believers -- once they're already Christians, you kind of think, okay, the Lord is supposed to be making me more like him. I'm supposed to be more obedient than I was a year ago. Why am I still -- why am I still not perfect, you know? And so then we live in shame. So that's why I wanted to write about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm glad you did, because I do think it is pervasive. But I also think it's sneaky. Like, I don't know that we can always name that that's what we're dealing with. Kind of like if you're trying to walk in the ocean and there's a subtle undertow that you're always fighting against, you don't really notice it, you just know it's hard. And I think that's kind of what shame is. And so I -- I guess let's do this. Let's define it. Okay? So why don't you define what shame is and tell us where it comes from.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: I wish I had my book handy, because I really studied this. I left it downstairs. So I'm going to do my best off the top of my head.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's all right.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: Hey, listen, you look in the book.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. This is why people buy the book.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: This is an off-the-cuff answer. When I think of shame -- this is definitely in the book. Like, if I weren't looking at a dictionary, I would think of that feeling when you stick your foot in your mouth and you hurt someone you love and you're like -- the words are out. You want to cram them back in. The damage has been done. And you just know there's nothing I can do or say to take this -- it's just that horrifying feeling of I've messed up. I'm embarrassed. I'm unworthy. That's what I think of.

I also think of -- man, the first thing I thought of before I even studied to put this study together, I thought of Isaiah in the throne room and, you know, when he saw the train of God's robe fill the temple and he immediately drops to his face. And, you know, if you translate it from the original language, essentially, he says, I should die. I should not be alive. Cry of despair. That is shame, right? And so the beautiful thing, of course, after that is that the angels, who are covering their faces because God is so holy, and shouting, "Holy is the Lord," they touched his mouth with the coals and say, "Your sin is forgiven." And then that leads him to say, "Here I am, send me," before he knows what God needs. And then what God needs is for him to deliver a really awful message of judgment, right? So it's not an easy assignment. But being forgiven, being lifted up out of that shame -- which was appropriate when he was under judgment, right? --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: -- leads him to joy and freedom and victory.

And I think that's such a beautiful picture of the Christian life, because shame -- we should be ashamed when we recognize our sin, but through Jesus -- Jesus was shamed in our place when he died on the Cross and paid the price for our sins and so we can walk in joy and service and victory rather than staying in shame as if we are still under judgment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So in some ways -- I guess what I'm saying, without Christ, shame is a legitimate response to being in the presence of God and being aware of our own sin. But in Christ, we can have moments of circumstantial shame or guilt, maybe. But you're saying shame in and of itself has been removed from us and put on Christ, so we don't live under it. Is that what you're saying? Like, we don't need to have shame?

Scarlet Hiltibidal: That's exactly what I'm saying. And, of course, I wrote about this because, like I said, it's so personal to me. And it was so fun to look into the lives of all these people in the Bible, different types of shame they experience. Some of it because of their own sin, some of it because they were sinned against, had nothing to do with them.

And then one of my favorite people that I looked at was Peter. I so identify with Peter. And think about his life, his following Jesus that's recorded. All of his big mess-ups happened after he had already decided to and followed Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting. Yeah.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: And I think that that's the whole thing. It's so easy. Just like you said, you might not say, "I am struggling with shame." You might just feel awful and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Not know why.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: -- kind of enslaved. Right. You're kind of like, I'm not enslaved. Why do I feel like this? Where's my joy and peace that I'm supposed to have because I walk with Jesus? And I think it's just because we take our eyes off of the Lord and we -- again, even if we've been redeemed, we can so easily have our mind set on our own performance. And if we do that, we are going to feel ashamed because we are not going to get it right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. And our eyes are in the wrong place.

Okay, so here's a question then. Because the older I get and the more I live and observe myself, other women, and men, honestly, it feels like to me -- and this is not scientific. Anecdotally it feels like to me women deal with shame more than men. So I know we are women, so we can speak to this. Do you have an opinion about that? Do you think women struggle with shame in particular? And, if so, why?

Scarlet Hiltibidal: You're so smart, Jennifer. I remember this now being on your podcast before. My brain has to, like, turn on to turbo mode. Let me think. Do I have an opinion on this? I'm not sure if I have an opinion. Because I think men are typically -- not always, but they're more internal, you know. And so I think of, like -- I don't know. Again, like you said at the beginning, it's such a kind of quiet struggle. I don't know. I don't know if I have an opinion. Whatever your opinion is, I'm going to piggyback off of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't know if I have an opinion either. But our listeners, I bet right now, are crafting an opinion since you and I are kind of ambiguous about this. And I think you're right, though. I mean, it would be a blanket statement to say one gender over another struggles when shame is a human issue, not a gender issue. I get that.

I do think sometimes for me personally -- I speak as one woman in the universe of women -- I think sometimes I internalize situations and relationships more than my husband does. He's able to externalize, you know, and be maybe a little more Teflon. And I'm like a sponge, like, Oh, you got a problem? Let me absorb it. Oh, I can't fix it? Let me feel guilty for that. Which is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. But I do think sometimes for me personally, I probably haven't realized that I have adopted shame unintentionally that was not something I should have picked up on because it didn't belong to me. And I kind of think sometimes women, we have a tendency to do that. Maybe more than men, or maybe just a disposition, I don't know.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: No, I think you're right. I think you're right now, now that you've said that. No, I do think you're right because I think we tend to be more relational. We tend to try to -- I don't know about you, but it's like I want everyone in the room, when I'm there, to be comfortable and happy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: And you're kind of just like always -- yes. Whereas men typically maybe can just kind of do their thing and, like you said, let it bounce off. Yeah, I would say that's true of me. So there we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: I agree.

Jennifer Rothschild: But we do have Peter, thankfully. And you've already given him as a good illustration, so obviously shame knows no gender. So y'all, don't take that as scientific or truth right there. That's just two girls talking about a thing.

Okay. But as you did study shame in the Bible, Scarlet, I'm curious -- you mentioned, you know, how much you identified with Peter. But I'm curious if there was anything in the Bible that actually stood out to you or surprised you about how Scripture deals with shame. Because a lot of people from the outside in thinks, well, the Bible is a book of shame, it's going to shame you because you blow it all the time. So was there anything you read in Scripture that surprised you about how Scripture handles shame?

Scarlet Hiltibidal: That's the best question. Well, let me see. I mean, I think the surprising thing about how the Bible deals with shame is that an encounter with Jesus removes our shame, because he's the only one who has the power to do it. He's the only one who has the power to do it.

When I was studying this, I, of course, super identified with Peter. I was very intrigued looking at the woman at the well and her interaction with Jesus and just -- it was very interesting because, of course, when you put a Bible study together, you're at this big round table with all these smart theologians. And I'm coming to it with -- like, before I have studied it, and I'm just thinking about it, and I have my personal experience and I have -- here's when I, Scarlet, have wrestled with shame.

But the woman at the well, except just in her little life story that we get from Scripture, we see all these different types of shame she wrestles with. You know, I didn't know much about -- you know, I always kind of focused on Jesus in that story, which we should. We focus on Jesus in the whole Bible. But I had never thought about the cultural shame she must have faced. You know, she was a Samaritan, right? And Jesus was a Jew. And Jewish people would go around the long way, I think through the Jordan River -- I might be saying this wrong -- just so they wouldn't have to interact with Samaritans. And there were all these things that she was born into that she would have felt ashamed about just by existing. Plus, the fact that, you know, she had five husbands, she had lived in sin, plus sin had been done to her. Just shame from every angle, you know.

And it was so simple, her interaction with Jesus, you know, him knowing her life, proving who he is, proving his power, and then hearing her testimony after, which was so similar to the testimonies of the blind people who were healed, the deaf, the lame. They would just be like, I was this way and now I'm this way and, you know, I met Jesus and he changed everything.

So, yeah, I mean, the surprising thing to me, I guess, which it took me years of Bible study to see -- and I probably talked to you about this when I was looking at anxiety. But for so long I would just kind of take these bites out of the Bible growing up in Sunday school, Bible college. Oh, the assignment is Amos, so I'm going to look at Chapter 2 of Amos, you know. And I didn't have experience studying Scripture from beginning to end yet and seeing that Jesus is the hero of the whole book. Even if you're in the swamp of Leviticus and the law, you know, it all points to Jesus and our need for him.

And so I just think it's so beautiful that -- and surprising that it doesn't matter who throughout history, what they've done, whether they've sinned or not sinned, nobody can take shame away except Jesus. And it is, like, the worst feeling -- when you really see that God is holy and you are unworthy, just like Isaiah, your response -- the natural response should be, I should have never been born. I should not be alive. I am unworthy. So, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, because in the temple -- because you're talking about Isaiah 6 -- he did, he said, "I'm undone." And so here he is with this encounter. And it's like, Scarlet, when you get a really clear view of God, then you can see yourself very clearly. And, of course, outside of Christ, or even in our flesh, we can experience that shame. And so I want you to talk to me a little bit about the connection, if you believe there is one, between shame and humility, our own humility and how we deal with shame.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: Yeah. That's something else I looked at in the Bible study workbook, is humility. Oh, man, I really should have brought it upstairs to my 10-year-old daughter's room, so I could say it right. But I think people get humility and humiliation confused, and the definitions are so vastly different. And again I'm going to butcher this because I don't have it in front of me. But humility is recognizing your true status. We are unworthy. We've been gifted salvation and friendship with God. What a joy, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: But if you're in humiliation, then the focus is all on you and your performance. So it's like -- I don't know, I heard a pastor a long time ago when I was in college say, you know, it's not about having high self-esteem or low self-esteem. A lot of people with low self-esteem are just trying to get higher self-esteem. It's about having no self-esteem, right? It's about -- humility is looking at Jesus, worshiping Jesus, having your eyes fixed on his goodness and what he's done for you, and that makes you more like him. Whereas humility is just being stuck in that striving for righteousness.

I was just reading Psalm 31:1, and it says, "In you, O Lord, I put my trust. Let me never be ashamed. Deliver me in your righteousness." And it's just like that's the simplified whole point of the Gospel, is a full righteousness. Abraham believed it was counted to him as righteousness. It's about his righteousness. As soon as we get focused on our works, then we are not humble. We are --

Jennifer Rothschild: It's about us.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: -- cocky or humiliated and stuck, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good distinction. And I was thinking when you started mentioning that Psalm 31 -- and I don't know the reference of it, but you'll recognize it. It says something like those who look to him are radiant. Their faces are never covered with shame. And it's that same picture you're creating, that when our eyes are on him -- it's like the shame can't exist when our eyes are not on ourselves, when our eyes are on him. It's really, really beautiful, Scarlet. And I think it's great you don't have the book in front of you, because I love hearing your heart anyway. We can read the book later. But this way we get to hear your heart.

But we're going to get to our last question. So let's get super practical here. Because we've understood the concept of shame, the theoretical nature of shame, that Jesus takes our shame. Okay? We got all that. So now Scarlet's doing life and she blows it. She's -- I don't know about you, but this would be me. I got low blood sugar, I'm super stressed out, then I can really spiral into shame, or whatever it may be. Like when I'm vulnerable, is what I'm trying to say, those issues come up. Okay? So let's say that's your life, that's our lives, we live there. We know Jesus takes our shame. So how do we, in a very practical way, get free from shame and stay free? So give us a very practical way to do this.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: Okay. I'll try to be succinct and practical. I'm not good at practical, but I'll do -- you can translate it, because you are. I feel like this is what I do. I go, "Bleh, bleh, bleh, bleh, bleh," and then you're like, "So you're saying bleh." Okay, here we go practically. I will say -- and I don't know if this is true of you. I've talked to a lot of Bible teachers, authors who say when you're about to teach something or share something, you find yourself battling that very thing. Isn't that funny how that -- I don't know if that happens for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: Isn't that true?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's like, What the heck do you think you're doing, Jennifer?

Scarlet Hiltibidal: Okay. Listen --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: So shame -- again, when I set out to do this, I was like, this is a part of my former testimony. I was like, I haven't struggled with this in a while, and I hadn't. And just so recently -- you mentioned blood sugar -- I had two interactions with people I love where I put my foot in my mouth and said the thing I didn't mean to say, and I find myself having to practically live this out. And I'm like, how do I... I just wrote a story about this. But how do I do it? And I think in a way, there's not a formula, because the whole formula is look to Jesus. It's as simple -- it's like our salvation is as simple as being the man crucified next to Jesus and having the faith to say, "You're the Savior" and then -- you know, it's not about doing a thing. But at the same time, walking with Jesus is not neglecting him.

And I think that I've definitely had seasons of my walk with the Lord where I got lazy or distracted, and battling these icky, horrible feelings would be so much harder when his Word wasn't front of mind. Because for whatever reason, I prioritized something else or, oh, I'm doing this Friday Bible study and I'm doing my homework for that, rushing through it to get it done before my kids have to be in their class. But am I, like, spending time with the Lord to enjoy him and love him?

You know, seasons like that -- or seasons of grief. I just had a very deep season of grief. I lost two family members that I loved. And it is hard, man. Like, I think that the practical thing is just don't neglect the Lord, because he is the only source of freedom and peace. And I think we need each other. And he says that in his Word. We need to be in Christian community, being supported and supporting and loving each other because we need it. Like, we're too weak to do it on our own. We can't be on an island. You know, when I feel ashamed or anxious, I want to be on an island. I don't want people to see me when I'm not doing great. Which my level of great is filthy rags, yes, but -- you know what I mean.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: It's like I want to be my best self when I'm out there in the world. And it's only when we have the humility to expose our weakness in front of other people, who are also walking with the Lord, that we're able to support each other and be supported to keep our eyes on the Lord. I think that's the only way that I've found.

Jennifer Rothschild: Boom. That was so practical. You do not need me to translate that, just so you know.

Scarlet Hiltibidal: Okay. I mean, it wasn't succinct, though.

Jennifer Rothschild: It doesn't matter. It was beautiful vintage Scarlet and I loved it, seriously.

As Scarlet said, quite succinctly by the way I might add, the formula is, look to Jesus. You just say to Jesus, "You're the Savior; I'm not," you know. I can't save myself from my sin or my shame. You just got to see the Cross, because that's where shame belongs. I loved also that she said don't neglect the Lord, because he is your source of freedom and peace.

K.C. Wright: And she also reminded us that we need each other, which is so important. We do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: So be honest about your struggles. We all struggle. Everyone's got issues. If you don't think you have an issue, that may be your issue, I'm just saying. And then we can support each other and keep shame off all of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Yeah.

K.C. Wright: So you need to do this Bible study. We'll have a link to it on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/307. But we're also giving one away. You can go straight to Jennifer's Instagram right now @jennrothschild to enter to win. Or we'll link you to it on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/307.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. You know, she reminded us that you can leave shame behind. I just love that. So don't forget, you don't have to pronounce her last name --

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and you can --

K.C. Wright: Forget it.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you can leave shame behind, because you can do --

K.C. Wright: Don't even try.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- all things -- do I need to redo that? --

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

K.C. Wright: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we are done.

K.C. Wright: Shame off of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Shame off of us.

K.C. Wright: Now, listen --

Jennifer Rothschild: I think I collapsed my stress ball.

K.C. Wright: Therefore, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

K.C. Wright: Amen?

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

K.C. Wright: When the enemy of our souls, when he comes to me with shame, I say out loud, "Yeah, Mr. Devil, that's right. You know what? That just qualifies me for a Savior." I need a Savior. I need Savior.

Now, let me remind you of your future, right? Because therefore, now there is no condemnation.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

K.C. Wright: He wants to keep you on a treadmill of guilt, but Jesus says you are free.

Jennifer Rothschild: Free.

K.C. Wright: Freedom. We speak shame off of you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Shame off you.

K.C. Wright: In Jesus' name.

Jennifer Rothschild: In Jesus' name.