4:13 Podcast: Can I Prevent Mental and Emotional Meltdowns? With Jeff Peabody [Episode 262]

Jeff Peabody: What I had wanted in my prayer was eradication of the anxiety, and I found that I didn't need God to take it away. What I needed was for him to take the power of it away. So I could live with whatever it was causing me to feel anxious or worried there, but it couldn't be in the driver's seat. It needed to move to the side and to say, Okay, God, if this is going to be in my life, what's more important to me is to see you in it.

Jennifer Rothschild: What do you do if your own mind turns on you? Fear, anxiety, and that critical voice in your head, it can be overwhelming, even if you know that Christ died to free you from those things. Well, according to today's guest, Jeff Peabody, what you do is put on the Armor of God. Today we're going to explore the Armor of God through the lens of personal struggle, showing how the ancient metaphor for God's care is powerful for his children in every generation. This is some good stuff, so let's go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hello, our people. Jennifer here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life. And it's a special day around here because someone, who is sitting in the closet next to me -- you just heard his voice -- my Seeing Eye Guy, K.C. Wright, is having a big birthday.

K.C. Wright: It's a big one.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a big birthday this weekend.

K.C. Wright: It's a big one.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. But you know what? Happy Birthday.

K.C. Wright: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: We are so grateful for you. In fact, if you've never left a review, this is the best time to do it and tell K.C. how much you appreciate him, because we do. And I think it's really appropriate that you're having a big birthday and we're talking about emotional and mental meltdowns today.

K.C. Wright: Oh, boy. I'm telling you, sometimes these podcasts are almost prophetic --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

K.C. Wright: -- in my life.

Have you ever heard of having a midlife crisis --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

K.C. Wright: -- and you end up doing a purchase with that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. Men do it. They buy, like, the Corvette?

K.C. Wright: Okay. Well, yeah. So I did a thing, and it's in your parking lot right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: What'd you do?

K.C. Wright: I went ahead and purchased my dream vehicle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, K.C., good for you.

K.C. Wright: And here's the thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, what is it?

K.C. Wright: Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I never woke up the other morning and said, you know what? I'm going to go out and buy a car. Okay? But I've been praying and dreaming and wishing, and on the bucket list, and I thought I'd go test drive a dream vehicle of mine. And so I went and picked it up, and they strapped one of those license plates on the back of it so I could pick Ellie up from school. I only did it just to get a reaction out of her and make her smile ear to ear, then I was going to drop it off. Well, I went and dropped it off and it just kept unfolding from there. And then I ended up driving out of the parking lot with it in, like, an hour. But I bought a Jeep.

Jennifer Rothschild: A Jeep?

K.C. Wright: I have not had one since I've been 18 years old. I used to have a red Wrangler Jeep with a white top. I went jeeping in every creek bed at the Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri. And then I grew up and I went to Bible school and I got rid of it, and I have -- every time a Jeep passes me on the road, one day, one day. And my best friend, James, bought a Jeep, and I'm like, "Man." I was in his Jeep this year saying, "Someday I'll have one like this, someday" -- and then it hit me that someday is now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Someday is now. And, you know, if you could afford it, then you should.

K.C. Wright: And here's the thing. I have two jobs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: And, yes. I would never have sat in the seat if I didn't afford it -- couldn't afford it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: And so anyway, yes, I can afford it. I got approved and I -- I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: What color is it?

K.C. Wright: It's black.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, very sleek.

K.C. Wright: It's a Jeep truck.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, and black makes you look thin, so that's good.

K.C. Wright: Yes. And It's the exact same Jeep as my best friend, James. So we have twin Jeeps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's fun. K.C., I'm happy for you. Well, Happy Birthday.

K.C. Wright: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's the best gift ever. You deserve it. You deserve it.

K.C. Wright: Thank you. So, yes, I had a mental and emotional breakdown --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah.

K.C. Wright: -- and purchased something.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or you prevented a worse one by purchasing one. But I will say, that's not exactly what Jeff is talking about today --

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but it fits. And I just think that's wonderful.

You know, one of the things you won't hear is -- Jeff and I got to talk a little before the mic opened up. And he was talking about how in his book, he talks about how 77% of Americans experience physical symptoms of stress. I mean, that's crazy. And 73% experience psychological symptoms. Because it's a real deal. I mean, it is a real deal, emotional, mental pressure, and stress.

Okay. But also -- this stat will blow your mind. 40 million American adults suffer from an anxiety disorder.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay? And get this. Since the pandemic, depression is the leading cause of disability worldwide.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So that means, like, quite a few of us who are listening right now, I mean, this truth applies to. Or these -- I'm sorry. These facts apply to. It can be a fact, but there can be a greater truth. And that greater truth is that there is hope. And there's hope in Christ, in His Word, in his provision, and the help that you can get. So that's why we're going to dive into this today, because not everybody can run out and afford a Jeep to prevent a meltdown. So we're going to get some good counsel from Jeff, or J.D. by the way, Peabody.

Okay. So, K.C. -- Birthday Boy -- would you introduce him, please.

K.C. Wright: Yes, let me introduce Jeff. Jeff, or J.D., Peabody is the founding pastor of New Day Church in Federal Way, Washington, a graduate of Fuller Seminary and Biola University. He is written for "Worship Leader," "First Things," and "Christianity Today." He and his wife live in the rainy, but beautiful Pacific Northwest.

All right. Are you all ready?

Jennifer Rothschild: We're ready.

K.C. Wright: Let's lean in, listen in to Jennifer and Jeff.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Jeff, J.D., I love this topic. I don't love this topic. I love that we're talking about this topic, anxiety. Okay? So let's just start right there. You are very candid in your book about your struggles with anxiety, and I appreciate that. So I would love for you to take us back to when you first noticed it.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah. You know, I probably spent most of my adult life largely out of touch with my emotions. And, I mean, there's a whole story there of how I grew up. But I think -- you could ask me at any given time how I was feeling, and I probably couldn't tell you, which meant that I skated along pretty oblivious to most of what was going on inside. And yet our brains and our bodies are keeping track, even when we're not, and they have a way of getting our attention when we aren't really aware, and sometimes that comes out sideways. And for me, that came in the form of what I refer to as my mental and emotional wall that I just smacked into.

I found myself all of a sudden being completely just bombarded and overwhelmed with unwanted and intrusive thoughts. And it felt like my mind -- I told people it felt like my brain broke. It just was spinning out of control. And it really scared me. I didn't know how to stop it and I didn't know what was going on. And I went on a walk with a friend of mine, who happened to be a therapist, which was convenient --

Jennifer Rothschild: Handy, yeah.

Jeff Peabody: -- and, you know, I'm just a mess. I'm just kind of blubbering all through the walk, which was also very uncharacteristic of me. And we get to the end and I'm just bewildered and I say, you know, "I am not an anxious person." And he looked at me and he just laughed. And it really caught me up short. It was not the reaction I was going for. I was hoping for a little more sympathy. But it really made me realize that I was not aware of what other people could see going on inside me, and so that really started my journey kind of unpacking what was going on. It's been a process ever since to realize that, oh, yeah, no, I had actually been carrying around a lot of anxiety for a really long time and -- so that's the short version of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, you clearly had some very executive function coping mechanisms going on. But like you said, the brain and the body, they do keep the score.

Jeff Peabody: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: They get to a point out of self-protection. I mean, I think it's God's protection he builds into us where it's like, okay, that's it, that's it.

I'm just curious. I know you were in advertising before -- or I think it was advertising, before you were a pastor?

Jeff Peabody: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: What was your role in life when you had this episode? Were you in pastorate yet or were you --

Jeff Peabody: Yes. Yes. That's a good question. Yeah, I had been a pastor at that point for a number of years. And it was really strange, because on one level I was able to function through all of this pretty well. So for a long time, the majority of the congregation was not aware of the intensity of the struggle that was going on inside for me. Which is -- when I was eventually diagnosed with OCD -- that's actually a common characteristic of OCD, is being able to be highly functional and it's all deep inside that this turmoil is happening. So, yeah, I feel like actually, you know, a lot of the role itself probably exacerbated or fed the anxiety as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, I'm a pastor's daughter, and I'm in ministry, and there is pressure that people don't probably recognize unless they're walking in those shoes, so I can imagine it would exacerbate that anxiety. And so you've written this book. And about your book -- I thought this was interesting -- you say this is a book about protection and vulnerability, about defensiveness and pain and avoidance. All right. So unpack that. Those seem oxymoronic, but I don't think they are. So unpack that.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah. Well, I think as I began to break down a little bit -- you know, I'd always been kind of the classic compliant overachiever performer. You know, you give me something to do and I would hit the mark. Like, I just -- I'm a people pleaser and I, you know, just by nature could try to do what was expected of me. And what I realized was a lot of that really was using that performance as a way to be okay in the world and be okay with God.

And I realized that a lot of my faith was really faith in myself rather than faith in God because -- because I wasn't a particularly bad kid growing up, you know, I was by and large living within what I thought God was asking of me. And so it's very easy, even though you're preaching and sharing a message of grace, to somehow kind of internalize this idea that really why God likes me is because I'm living up to what's expected.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jeff Peabody: And so to reach this point where all of a sudden I couldn't even control my brain. Then I came to a point of going, oh, well, that's what grace is for, it's for the things that we can't fix ourselves, and to suddenly go, oh, there is a whole lot more grace here than I've been living in and -- so, yeah, a lot of striving and trying to avoid just the limits of being human, and finally breaking down and realizing vulnerability is actually the way forward.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. In our weakness, he is strong.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You just described, like, the curse of the capable Christian right there. I mean, we're driven, we pull it off and we think it's grace, until suddenly we can't pull it off, and then we're like, oh, maybe that's not what was going on.

Jeff Peabody: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's tough, Brother.

Okay. So you also write something in your book that I think a lot of us can relate to. You said you wanted to be a strong Christian. Okay? And you alluded to this being a good kid growing up. But you said you wanted to be a strong Christian, but most of the time deep down you felt guilty. So was that OCD? Was that spiritual? What was that? Explain that.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah. You know, I think personality-wise, I'm always going to be guilt prone. I think that just is wired into me. I think it's very difficult to -- you know, I grew up in a Christian home, and I think it's very difficult for parents seeking to raise their children in the faith to separate out the messages of grace and behavior. It's very hard for a child to distinguish between the rules and the sense that God just loves you. And so I think for me, I think that started at an early age of really the guilt feeling like I'm trying to be good enough for God.

And then I think also as you go on and you are wrestling with things like anxiety and worry, that compounds the guilt. As Christians, you know, we read Scripture verses like, "Don't be anxious, Don't be worried," and then if we're feeling those things, we go, well, I'm not supposed to be feeling this. And so then you've not only got the bad feeling, you feel bad about the bad feeling and -- so, yeah, the guilt just piles up. And I don't think now -- as I read those verses now, I read them differently because I go, you don't tell a child not to be anxious in a way that's scolding, you're telling them, oh, don't worry about that, I've got that, you know, like it is --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's a comfort.

Jeff Peabody: It's a comfort rather than a reprimand. And so I read some of those texts differently now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I think you make a very good point. I even remember as a little girl, I think it was Colossians 3 maybe, the title above the chapter was "Rules for Holy Living." And I remember reading that all the time because I was like, tell me the rules so I can make sure I follow the rules.

Jeff Peabody: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But then here's the thing. Life happens, things break down, unexpected stuff. Okay. And so when that happens, even for the faith-filled believer, I still think sometimes we kind of spin into this self-reliance. You know, we rely on ourselves when things get tough. So why do you think we do that?

Jeff Peabody: Oh, I think it's -- it's just so difficult to ask for help all the time. And I think we don't want to feel needy, we -- I will always hear people in my role coming to me, "Well, I don't want to be a burden to you. I didn't want to call you because I didn't want you to have to carry this." And I think we have this internal need for self-sufficiency and for a sense of being okay. And so we want that so badly that I think -- yeah, we don't want to reach for help, so we begin developing all these things of our own.

And in the book, I refer to the armor of me, all these ways of protecting ourselves that we grab on to, instead of what God has for us, and we kind of rob ourselves of what's right there and available to us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, self-sabotage.

Well, you do write in your book that our attempts at self-protection have an element of hiding within them, which is interesting. So explain that.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah. Well, I think we can be really good at not wanting to be seen for who we really are. Because our fear is that if people really knew what was going on inside us, they'd reject us, and so we develop all these ways to avoid looking at what's going on inside us anyway. We can have denial. I would use humor a lot because I could always joke my way out of a situation. Or, you know, just escape, or whatever is our go-to mechanism of not dealing with the reality that's right there.

It's interesting because my therapist, one time as we were talking about my OCD -- I could not see any value to my OCD. And he took a yellow pad of paper and he held it up in front of my face and he said, "What can you see?" And I said, "Well, nothing. Just the paper. It's blocking my view." And he said, "This is like your OCD. So what's it doing for you right now?" And I didn't think it was doing anything for me, and he said -- eventually I came to the realization that what it was doing was it was taking me out of the room. I was so preoccupied with my anxiety, it became a way almost of an escape from dealing with the -- maybe something that was more trying or stressful that was right in front of me that I didn't want to look at. So it's like a trick of the brain to kind of say, I'll pull you out entirely and then you don't have to deal with this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Interesting.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's super insightful and interesting. And you're describing what you alluded to as just elements of the armor of me. And so let's shift to your book. Because thank the Lord, you have a better solution than self, the Armor of God. So one of the things I'd be curious about as you're speaking of -- you know, these are legit physical conditions, your brain, the OCD and anxiety.

Jeff Peabody: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Yet, obviously the enemy of our souls can jump right in and exploit that. So how do you define spiritual warfare and how do you know when that's what's going on?

Jeff Peabody: Yeah. You know, that was something I was especially concerned about right as -- I was trying to make sense of what was going on. And, you know, you go through all the lists of possible causes to what you're dealing with and, you know, was there some sin in my life, was -- and I had somebody suggest that maybe this was like something demonic that I was wrestling with, and all these things that weren't necessarily helpful. I kind of have a simplified definition of spiritual warfare simply being -- anything that negatively affects our spirits is spiritual warfare. It's hurting us.

I was afflicted whatever the cause was. And, you know, there were multiple causes, because anxiety has components of physical brain chemistry. It has your story that's part of it, it has trauma. It has just all kinds of layers to it. And so parsing out the cause wasn't necessarily the most important thing as to go, okay, this is here. And the fact that it's here -- of course, we have an enemy. We know in Scripture that we have an enemy and he can use whatever in our lives. But ultimately it's an attack on our spirits. Anything that is negatively affecting it I think can be classified as some form of spiritual warfare. And the good news is that God does offer us assistance. He offers us his own protection to help us in that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love too how you've explained your story. I mean, you were a steward of your story on so many levels: physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. And so I don't want -- because I want us to talk a little bit about the Armor of God and how that became just this beautiful remedy in many ways for the vulnerability. Yet for someone who's listening who might be really identifying and struggling, this is absolutely a solution; yet at the same time, seeing a medical professional is also a solution that can be done in tandem.

Jeff Peabody: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So if you just don't know what to do, that means you probably do need to seek some help from a trusted friend, a professional. Because obviously, Jeff, that was part of your journey so that you could even get your brain clear enough to think again, you know.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's part of that physical component. So let's move to your book where you're talking about the Armor of God. Okay? And so let's just talk about a couple of those elements of the Armor of God.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Shield of Faith. Because clearly you had faith. Okay? How does trusting God with all this stuff, even that stuff that was so hard and unsettling for you, how did that Shield of Faith -- or how did that trust become a shield for you?

Jeff Peabody: Yeah. Well, I think I need to back up one step there on it. I grew up with the entire concept of the Armor of God being one that was real familiar to me. You know, I heard lots of Sunday school lessons and flannel graphs and all that of the armor. And really the big takeaway that I had from it all the time was the emphasis on that you got to take it up and put it on. That really ultimately -- it was funny when you were talking about the chapter headings in the Bible, because my childhood Bible is -- all the verses that are underlined are things that were about what I needed to do to get it right. And we talked about how all of Scripture points towards him. And I think if we can keep that at the forefront of how we're interpreting Scripture and how we're using it, I think that will prevent a lot of hurt.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. Because even just as you and I talked about titles above chapters -- and I loved all the rules for holy living, and you underlined all the to-do's, you know --

Jeff Peabody: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- in many ways that is misusing the soul of the Spirit.

Jeff Peabody: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: When we attack ourselves with that, we are eliminating the grace of Jesus from our life. So what a good word, Pastor Jeff.

All right. I'm so glad you've written the book, because I can tell there is so much here. But we have to get to our last question. So this one -- this was a statement that I have really been struck by that you wrote. You said this: "I did not need full understanding as much as I needed rescue." Okay? I'm going to just repeat it for our listeners. "I did not need full understanding as much as I needed rescue." This was so powerful to me, because I think lots of times I think -- lots of us think -- that understanding is the rescue, you know. Like, if I can just figure it out, then that's good, I'm good.

Jeff Peabody: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So for the person who is really struggling, maybe anxiety, just -- they are really resonating with your conversation here, how does this rescue begin?

Jeff Peabody: That is a really good question, you know. And I'm glad you read that statement, because I think -- I still can want full understanding. And I think that's -- a piece of our anxiety so often is we think if we could just figure it out, then we'd be okay. And again, it becomes one more thing that we're relying on. And, you know, I'll be real clear. I'm not an expert on anxiety. I'm a sufferer of anxiety. And so I'll have people -- in fact, I just got an email this morning from somebody who'd read my book who wanted more answers and advice from me. I mean, at the end of the day, I still struggle with my own anxiety. I think I had to come to a point of going -- what I had wanted in my prayer was eradication of the anxiety, and I found that I didn't need God to take it away. What I needed was for him to take the power of it away. So I could live with whatever it was causing me to feel anxious or worried there, but it couldn't be in the driver's seat. It needed to move to the side and to say, Okay, God, if this is going to be in my life, what's more important to me is to see you in it, to have you meet me and be honored in it.

And it was interesting in my treatment to learn that with -- with OCD, kind of the part of the brain that's behind it is the basal ganglia. And it was good for me somehow to have that name, because then I could think about the fact that Jesus is the name above every name. And it's not just people's names, but the name of everything. And so I could name that and bring it under his authority and say, you know, whatever's going on with me, if I'm submitting it to his will and to allow him -- or to just say your will be done with this. And If God can be glorified and honored through it still being in my life, then so be it.

And so I think part of the rescue for me was learning to see that God is bigger than -- so much bigger, and his grace is so much bigger than I ever realized. And he's got me through this, and he will continue clear to the end, because he said he'll never leave us. And so I don't know if that's an answer, but it's just being able to see him in the struggle and go, I'm not alone and it's okay. It's okay even if it remains a struggle.

K.C. Wright: Jesus is the name above all names, and even the name of your issue. Your disease has to bow to the name of Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

K.C. Wright: So powerful. And I think my favorite line was when he said something like don't just pray that God takes it away, but that he takes the power of it away. Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. I thought so, too, K.C. I also really loved when he explained that rescue was learning to see that God is bigger and see that his grace is so much bigger than the issue. That God has gotten you through this already, and he will continue to rescue you.

I know, like me and K.C., you guys got so much from this. And you're going to get even more from his book. The book is called "Perfectly Suited."

K.C. Wright: And we're giving one away. Go to Jennifer's Instagram right now, @jennrothschild on Instagram, to register to win it. And if you don't win it or want to wait to find out if you won it, you can just buy it, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. That's a good choice.

K.C. Wright: You need it. What a great investment in your emotional and spiritual life. We will have a link to this book and to Jennifer's Insta at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/262.

All right, my peoples, our peoples, we love you. And sadly, we're done for today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we're done.

K.C. Wright: So until next week, armor up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Armor up.

K.C. Wright: Jesus is Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he is.

K.C. Wright: Stand firm.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: And you can, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

K.C. Wright: And --

Jennifer and K.C.: -- you can.

K.C. Wright: Now, I just want to say, I am a Dave Ramsey follower.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you are.

K.C. Wright: And the thing was is my old car was falling apart.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know it was.

K.C. Wright: It was. I mean, they quoted me like a $5,000 fix on the electrical issues, my trunk wouldn't open.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

K.C. Wright: Oh, I went all winter without a heater. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

K.C. Wright: So when you hear the guy say, "If you trade in your vehicle, we'll give you this, and your payment will go just up a little bit more --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: -- and you can have your dream car" --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Done.

K.C. Wright: -- you don't really have to pray. But I did. I stepped outside and called my pastor and we prayed together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh. Well, that's good.