Jennifer Rothschild Show: Why the Trinity Matters to Your Relationships with Liz Daye

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Liz Daye: I wanted to make sure that I could ground myself in something that was true about God. So when I'm in the hospital and I'm either with a patient or I'm with one of my children or whatever the case is, I'm asking, what is God like here? Because I need to ask that so that I can know what's true.

And so that in that moment, I can have comfort that is rooted in truth, that is rooted in something real. And that's what it looks like to promote that kind of discipleship, because that shouldn't be an individual thing, right?

We should be doing that in community with each other. When we're going through hard stuff, we need to remind one another the truth about the triune God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome to the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow. I'm so glad you are here today because we're talking about something so good today.

Now, here's what it is, okay? In a culture shaped by individualism, chaplain and theologian, our guest today, Liz is going to invite us back to the relational heart of God.

Don't we need that? And here's how she's gonna do it. She's gonna unpack the mystery of the Trinity to help us rediscover the beauty of belonging to God's family.

Oh, listen, if you've got some theological questions on the Trinity, I just want you to know we've got some really good answers today. So let's grow. Well, hey friends, I'm glad you are back again for another amazing week here at the Jennifer Rothschild Show.

And some of you have been leaving reviews and man, can I just tell you how much I appreciate that? You guys are just the kindest, most wonderful people.

So thank you for doing that. We're talking today with Liz Day, first time I ever talked to her. And I want to tell you something interesting that you're going to hear.

Liz is autistic and she kind of explains that, and I'm just going to I just wanna give you that heads up because it was super helpful to me. And I thought it was really special just to break down some of the mystique. So if that's a thing for you, you're gonna appreciate that today.

And you know, I realized too, the last couple of weeks we've touched on the importance of relationships. So I'm gonna tell you that something happened to me because of relationship.

All right, ready? Mushroom coffee.

Yes. I have a couple of friends who are like, oh my gosh, you will love mushroom coffee.

And it's so good for your brain. Now you may already know I am a coffee girl. In fact, I have a steaming cup of Verona that I made with my espresso machine.

So even though it's coffee, it's got like this foamy crema on the top. Mm. My, my whole podcast studio smells like it.

It makes me very happy. So I thought, my friends know how much I love coffee. So if they think I'm gonna love this mushroom coffee, of course I'm gonna love it.

And you may love mushroom coffee. Like it is the thing. It's made with all these mushrooms.

I opened the bag. It smelled like coffee. I thought, this is fantastic. And then I brewed it. Okay, can I just say, friends don't let friends drink mushroom coffee.

I know, I know, you may be out there going, but you haven't tried such and such. And you're right, I probably haven't. It might just be the brand that I tried, which I will not name.

But I just realized I've got 2 bags of mushroom coffee here and my brain needs the mushrooms. So here's what I'm doing. I'm trying to put a little scoop of mushroom coffee in my good coffee so that it doesn't ruin my good coffee, but that my brain gets a little mushrooms.

Okay. That's what I'm doing. So as your friend, if you don't love mushroom coffee, that's the advice I'm giving you.

And so far it's working. I can't even taste it in my Verona. It hasn't ruined it.

Okay. You know what that has to do with anything? Nothing. All right. Let's just go to Liz because she's got a lot better going on, but here's the thing.

She's going to tell you something about the Trinity that helps us understand our belonging to God and our relationship with the family that could be just startling for you and so inspiring. I can't wait for you to hear it. So I'm going to introduce you to my new friend, Liz.

She's a hospital chaplain and she's a teacher and she's a theologian. She's an author. And here's what she does, which is interesting.

She integrates academic theology and biblical scholarship with research-based clinical interventions. Okay? She graduated way high from Dallas Theological Seminary with a degree, a master's degree in chaplaincy and ministry care.

And she keeps serving there, right in that seminary in the theological studies department. Okay.

The woman is pretty amazing. She's married, she's got some kids, and she's got great insight. So just settle in, enjoy your coffee as you listen to me and Liz Daye.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Liz, first off, I'm gonna share, uh, with our listeners what I read about you. Okay?

This is part of your official bio. It says Liz Daye is an autistic hospital chaplain, teacher, and theologian with a passion for accessible theology and relationship-based discipleship.

Okay. Now we could talk for 30 minutes just about the attributes that are in that bio.

Okay? But if it's okay with you, I really want to know, are you autistic? And what exactly does that mean?

Liz Daye: Yeah, so I was diagnosed as an adult. And I am excited because I feel like growing up, I struggled to find language to explain what was going on in my brain and in my body.

So I think even just having— knowing that this book in particular, this book that's really about belonging and finding new vocabulary for our faith, that it's coming from this perspective of somebody who's been looking for language for a really long time. And I hope that these different parts of my life and these different experiences that I've had can contribute meaningfully to this work.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I know it has to because it just, it deepens the message. And it also really gives you a platform for credibility. Because I think autism, that's why it was my first question.

It is so misunderstood. And maybe it's because it's so nuanced that it shows up differently with each person.

Liz Daye: Yeah, I think, and everybody has a different relationship with their body. All of us experience the spectrum in very different ways.

We have different support needs. And those are always going to look different. So knowing, first of all, being able to name what you need, and then know what you need and recognize it in that moment, that takes time to kind of figure out.

And there's some trial and error involved, especially if you have limited support or less resources. There's, there's a whole lot there. But yeah, I'm excited to maybe surprise people with maybe a different way of experiencing my body and my brain.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I love that. And you're basing so much of it on something that, that I didn't expect.

Okay, so let me put it this way. So like, when I read your bio, you make theology accessible, which I so highly regard and appreciate. And so I'm going to ask you a question. been about something that is usually not accessible, the Trinity.

Okay, because you base a lot of what you're teaching in this book on the relationship of the Trinity. Okay, so first of all, explain to us what the Trinity is for someone who may not know.

I mean, as much as we humans can. And then tell us what we can learn from the Trinity about relationships.

Liz Daye: Yeah, so I think one of the core Christian convictions that most of us share, you know, we fight about lots of things, but one of the things that we share is that God is one. And God is 3 persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, right?

We have these 2 things in tension. God is one, God is 3. But this really important part of our faith is that God is alive.

And so I think when we're looking for language to talk about the Trinity, usually we get like a triangle-shaped graphic with like the Father on the top, and sometimes you have some like different directions pointing in different ways. But a lot of those graphics and a lot of those things that we, you know, rely on to communicate our faith, a lot of them—

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Liz Daye: are missing the language that God is moving and God is alive and God is at work in the world and in our relationships.

So one of the reasons that I wanted to write about the Trinity and kind of bring some of this really academic, like gross Latin, Greek, you know, these, these terms that are just really inaccessible for most of us, and I wanted to translate them to a way that actually this doctrine is really important to our faith. It is important that we know how to communicate --

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Liz Daye: -- that God is alive. We're resurrection people, and what that looks like in our relationships with one another, what that looks like as the church. So, that's kind of the framing for my approach, and what I hope readers take away as, you know, this scary doctrine maybe becomes a little bit less scary, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, because it shouldn't be. This is the foundation of our faith.

So, let me just ask you something unexpected that I'm going to mispronounce. Okay, Perichoresis?

Liz Daye: Yes. Okay, so that's— yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Talk about that, because I think when you said movement, that helped me. So talk about that, please. Fix my word and then explain it.

Liz Daye: No, your word is perfect. So perichoresis, this is that term where we get the vocabulary for movement. So in, you know, with the early church fathers, they're looking for language to describe God.

We have all these different councils that are, you know, Dudes are writing letters back and forth, trying to find the best ways to articulate. And this was one of those words that came up during that period of time to really give language to the fact that God is moving, God is alive, God is moving around, inseparable, interdependent, constantly in motion.

That's really where we get a lot of this accessible language, especially when we start talking about like a Shalom-shaped communion. All of this language—

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Liz Daye: comes directly from this really scary, really weird-sounding thing that actually isn't that scary when we start taking a look at it.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, Liz, just because you are a theologian, I want us to dive even just a little bit deeper.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so is, in your understanding of the Trinity, we have God the Father, Jesus the Son, Holy Spirit. Is there a hierarchy? Because God is one, so there is equality, yet is there a hierarchy?

Liz Daye: So based on historic Christian teaching, there is no hierarchy in the Godhead, right? There is no— there's no, you know, ranking of importance. There is no, you know, one was first, second, third.

None of that is language that is appropriate for when we're talking about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Over and over, the testimony of Scripture, when we really look at the whole story of it, we see this God that is power-sharing and overflowing with love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Liz Daye: And it's, God is much less concerned with power and authority and hierarchy and much more concerned with sharing love and sharing goodness with the world and promoting shalom.

So I think that, yeah, even just reimagining some of the ways that we think about power and hierarchy, what might it look like and how might our faith be affected if we started reimagining that a little bit, maybe reevaluating where we've internalized some of those assumptions.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Liz Daye: Specifically about God the Father.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, Liz, too. And when you think about it, because the Trinity really— they're all out loving each other, out serving each other. I mean, that's really what they're doing.

And so if you're looking at that as the template for how we relate to each other in what you called a shalom-shaped community, okay, break that down for me. What in your definition is a shalom-shaped community?

Liz Daye: Right, so when we're looking at the very beginning at the Hebrew Bible, starting in Genesis 1 and 2, when everything that God made was perfect and wonderful and beautiful. That is the best picture of shalom that we have in the Bible, right? It's in picture form where all of creation is living in right relationship.

Everybody's doing what they're supposed to do. The trees are cooperating. Like, everything in nature is rightly related.

When sin comes in and destroys that and fractures that and breaks that Then now our new mission, you know, as resurrection people is to be people of shalom because the way that it started, that's our, that's our destiny in Revelation. When it's all said and done, God is going to bring us back to this shalom-shaped communion.

And so I think promoting that and living that out, like practicing now how we're going to be living for eternity, is again where we get just a consistent vocabulary for a way to be with one another in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, I'm loving this. Okay, so let's take that from the pages of the Bible to our church pews.

Okay, so what does this look like, like this shared siblinghood? What, what would it look like in everyday church life?

Liz Daye: I think, you know, for us, we've experienced this. And I, you know, in other conversations we've talked about, you know, does your church structure need to change, or does the way that you have your programs, you know, organized, does that need to change? You can live this way regardless of how your church is structured, right?

And I think part of it is just— is paying attention to suffering. That's a really big part of the work that I do as a chaplain. But it's also something that my church is just very good at, making space to pay attention and slow down enough to say, okay, I see that something's happening here.

How can I enter in and be with this person? And that creates space for a lot of really interesting things to happen, but it creates space for the Holy Spirit to, to be a part of that moment. So I think that we're looking at how do we live this way and how do we enact it?

It's not a checklist of things that we need to do. It's really just an approach of how can I make sure that I am, I'm really experiencing the people that I'm with, that I'm slowing down enough to pay attention. And yeah, I think, I don't know about you, but we, I tend, I have 4 kids.

We live busy lives. You know, we're always, you know, bopping around all over the place and slowing down can be very challenging.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah. And a little unsettling because it's easier.

Yeah. It's easier just to speed through, you know, as you're describing it, I'm thinking it's like the difference between Liz, a formula and family. You know, we come in with our church life, our life in Christ.

Here's the formula. I do my devotionals, I do this, I go serve the poor, I come home, I read my Bible.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so different than just, I'm part of the family.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm gonna be a sister today, and I'm gonna be available to love and to serve and to do nothing if I need to do nothing. And it's so different. But it— I can see how, let's be honest, there's a little insecurity there because it's easier to have a formula and be in the fast lane.

Liz Daye: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whew, okay, this is really good.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so you're talking a lot about discipleship, obviously, though that's just a word, you know, that I try to not avoid, but I try not to overuse it because I think it sounds formulaic again. And you're really talking about relationships that spur us on to shalom and deeper life in Christ.

So I'm curious how your work, because it's so interesting what you've done as a hospital chaplain, you've seen a lot, you've dealt with a lot of trauma care, I'm curious how that's changed your understanding of what I just called discipleship.

Liz Daye: Yeah, I think, you know, even just based on my own family's experience shuttling kids back and forth to the children's hospital and things like that, I came to experience this dissonance where I couldn't check the boxes the way that I really want.

I wanted to be a good faithful Christian, right? I wanted to check the boxes and be a reliable volunteer and show up when I was supposed to show up and, you know, contribute what I was supposed to contribute.

And especially when we were in this several-year season of just being back and forth in the hospital, I couldn't do that. And I realized that in part I couldn't do it because we're not supposed to approach our faith that way. So in that season, I learned how to receive as a sister, and that was really meaningful to me.

But it also helped me make space to say, you know what, even if I'm not productive, I'm still a part of this family. And even if I, you know, need to say, I'm a person, I need space right now.

I need to rest. My soul needs rest. You know, my family's going to want that for me because they love me.

And so I think even just remembering that the family of God is special, and it's supposed to be something that promotes safety and promotes healing and wholeness for all of us, especially those of us that are suffering or that are going through a hard diagnosis or a trauma or an accident or something beyond our control.

Those, those boxes, you'll find they limit us very quickly and they marginalize people very quickly. And because when you're in the hospital, you can't even think straight enough to check a box.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Liz Daye: Yeah. So I think even especially in those weeks where I just, I wasn't sleeping, I was caregiving, I was very tired. I wanted to make sure that I could ground myself in something that was true about God.

So when I'm in the hospital and I'm either with a patient or I'm with one of my children or whatever the case is, I'm asking, what is God like here? Because I need to ask that so that I can know what's true. And so that in that moment, I can have comfort that is rooted in truth, that is rooted in something real.

And that's what it looks like to promote that kind of discipleship, because that shouldn't be an individual thing, right? We should be doing that in community with each other. When we're going through hard stuff, we need to remind one another the truth about the Triune God, that God is with us, that the incarnation is a big deal because God is with us.

So yeah, I mean, I think that that just gives us space to practice compassion and to really live out this faith. I think practicing compassion is a much better word than, or a much better phrase than discipleship.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right.

Liz Daye: Because it encompasses all of the different things that we can do. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Liz Daye: And even just the way that we can just exist without doing anything!

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just being and being together. And you know, I love that you kind of reframed the situation where, what is God like right now? Because often we think of, okay, what is my situation like right now?

Or how do I feel right now? And you're saying in the midst of these difficult situations, you're looking, okay, what is God like right now?

Who is He right now? Because that is the grounding reality.

That's really beautiful. And so you mentioned And Liz, compassion.

And so let's go another place that could be somewhat controversial, okay? Because some Christians, I think because of a misunderstanding or because of the political charge of certain phrases, they get all freaked out when they hear the words social justice, okay?

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so let's talk about that. What role should justice socially and compassion play in our everyday family life as the family of God?

Liz Daye: Yeah, I think when I look at Scripture, again, I'm always going to turn to Scripture. That's my primary lens through which I want to view the world and encounter God, right? So when I'm thinking about Scripture, and when I'm thinking about the concept of justice specifically, you know, justice and righteousness aren't something that the Bible separates.

They're two sides of the same coin. So really, it's the way that we're living as righteous believers, that is going to translate to just living and living justly in right relationship. And I think when we let those 2 kind of sets of vocabulary talk to each other, like the language of righteousness and holiness and the language of justice, we realize that we have to do these things in community.

And we can't— we— the Christian faith, the testimony of Scripture doesn't let us live faith alone, isolated by ourselves. And so much of the teaching of Scripture is now that we are resurrection people representing a God that is alive in the world, what does that look like?

How do we shine brightly? We do that through our relationships.

So think about the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Every single one of those things, they're not, again, they're not things that you check off on a box.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Liz Daye: They are, they're, they describe the way that relationships should be lived. There should be goodness. In relationships, if you go down that list, it shouldn't feel like a list.

It should just feel like, oh yeah, this is what I want to promote in these different ways of you know being a parent, being a friend, being a minister, being a neighbor, being a person.

And then I think that we can, forgetting all the hot button buzzwords and all of the politically charged language, I think that just scripture and just looking at it through that lens gives us enough of a framework to remember that we have a responsibility to our communities and to the people that are around us, especially to the vulnerable.

And we need to take our Christian responsibility seriously to live as compassionate people, to represent a compassionate God in the world, and to promote goodness.

I think that that's really important. And again, there's not room in the New Testament, there's not room in scripture to live a private faith by yourself, disconnected from everybody else. We don't get that luxury.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Liz Daye: So yeah, I hope that we can invite one another into relationship, into communion, into community with God, not just as our template, but God is inviting us into the life of God. It's—

Jennifer Rothschild: yeah.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Liz, this is a good conversation for us all to have together because I think sometimes we, I mean, we, we are, our hearts are so confused sometimes and we become so self-centered. My faith, my Jesus, my personal Savior, my this, my that. And we're in the family and, and The nature of Christianity and being Christlike is deeply relational.

And so what a good reminder. Yeah, we don't have the fruits of the Spirit so we can feed ourselves.

So that's a beautiful thing. And so as we're talking about this community, you write about cultivating communities of inclusion, reciprocity, and mutual care.

Liz Daye: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those are 3 very interesting words that I want us to kind of hit: inclusion, reciprocity, and mutual care. Okay, so first of all, how do we do this? And if we do, what does it look like?

Liz Daye: It's gonna look a lot of different ways because again, when we talk about inclusion, there's not just one way. That's the whole point is we want to make space for more than just one experience to feel like they belong and that they matter.

So that means we're going to pay attention to who's around us, who's in our community, and we're gonna get uncomfortable really fast because you know, if you have, for example, a friend that's going through a really tricky divorce, and she's trying to decide, is it safe for me to go to church?

Am I going to belong there? Is she really going to belong there? Like, do we nod and smile and have our slogans that say you belong here?

Or are we actually going to say, you know what, I recognize that this situation needs something even more specific, right? And that specificity is really where we show love for one another.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Liz Daye: It's really easy to do things generally, but when we get specific, when we get personal, when we know names and faces and what their hands feel like, that, that makes everything a little bit different. Um, so that's the inclusion part is, that's kind of where I would start there. What was the next one?

Jennifer Rothschild: Reciprocity.

Liz Daye: Reciprocity. Okay. This is, this is huge for especially those of us in evangelicalism, right?

Because We're told a lot of times that it's, you know, you're more blessed to give than to receive. We have all these messages about being generous, and this is good, right? Generosity is a good Christian virtue.

And also, the gospel is something we receive, and we receive it freely. So even just making space to say, yes, I'm going to be a generous person, and there are going to be times where I need to receive, and I need to be willing to receive. And having that mindset of, yes, there's going to be giving, and yes, there's going to be receiving.

Otherwise, if we're only giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, it creates subtle hierarchy between people who feel really, really good that they're the givers all the time, um, and, and people who can't give as much or can't be recognized. And that's, that's not how God's family is supposed to work, right?

We have this Romans 16 picture of God's family, you know, living in reciprocity, giving and sharing with the poor, sharing with one another, living in vibrant community, communion, living not just on Sunday, but every single day.

So it's just a different kind of picture of living that— I don't know, like, I remember there was one time I was volunteering for Vacation Bible School several years ago. They're doing this big fundraising situation, and all of the parents were in the back with their checkbooks because they wanted to win the fundraising competition.

I love that. And I'm just thinking, like, these are 4th and 5th graders. This is— this doesn't feel like it matches, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Liz Daye: And like little things like that. But those are— they're theological choices that we're making, right? We need to have vocabulary to say, this is really what God's family is supposed to look like and live like and act like.

And we have to have the language so that we can have healthier communities and healthier attitudes. Especially towards, I know it is frustrating to say I need something. It is humbling and it is, yeah, all the things.

I mean, it's sad to feel like you have a need that's not going to be met. And I think the more that we can be with one another in those unmet needs, beautiful things happen there. They really do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, when you think about it, Liz, that is the mutual care.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you're describing. And for us to be prideful and say, nope, I'm the giver, I don't have needs.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's truly robbing your sister or brother from their mandate to meet your needs and to receive the blessing for helping. And it doesn't esteem them. So one of the things I, I don't know if you know this about me, but my friends that listen do, is that I'm blind.

And one of the hardest things for me is always asking for help. And I remember one time I was talking to Joni Eareckson Tada, Yeah. Who's, you know, been in a wheelchair her whole life.

I was talking to her about my frustration that I always feel like a burden. I hate asking people for help.

And she said she had to make that shift, that she realizes when she asks someone like to open a door for her at a restaurant, she's giving them an opportunity to feel esteemed. And it changed my view of recognizing I still don't love needing, you know, I would rather be able to do things myself.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course. But humility is never a bad thing. And oh, what our own personal humility grants someone else can be so life-giving.

And that's part of being in a family. So I think that's kind of what you're describing.

Yes? No?

Liz Daye: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, in a sense, we do get to model that for our, our brothers and sisters in the family, right? We may feel it and experience it a different way.

But yeah, and even just recognizing we do all have needs, some of them are more physical, and they— we notice them more. But yeah, we all have needs and we should all delight in receiving care and offering care.

There's so much goodness there. There really is.

Jennifer Rothschild: So much goodness. This is such a good conversation, Liz. I, I'm so grateful you've written a book.

I think it's going to be a great book to dive deep into. We're going to get to our last question though on this conversation, because you know, this is the place where thoughtful people come to grow. And boy, have you given us a lot to think about.

But my last question for you is this. Give me something that's really helped you. What is something you'd recommend that over the years perhaps has helped you grow?

Liz Daye: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things that I had to learn, especially as a chaplain, I needed to walk much slower. Or as my friend who is in a wheelchair reminds me, I need to move through the world much slower. Typically, when we get a code at the hospital, I have to respond to every situation.

If I am out of breath and having an asthma attack by the time I get there, I'm not going to be an effective minister. Right. So I have learned that while there is urgency, I am also not the one doing CPR, right?

Nobody wants that. I need to remember that for me to do good work, I have to move slower. For me to check in with my body so that I can care for everybody else in the room, I need to slow down enough to make space for myself as a person, myself as a minister, not because I'm being selfish, but because I really want to make sure that I'm doing my best work and caring for people in a way that's meaningful.

If I'm so busy and I'm so distracted, I'm not even in my body, I'm not going to represent God well in that situation, right? Especially if it's a life and death moment. So I think just really— And obviously not every situation is a life and death moment, but sometimes they are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moving slower makes a big difference. It really does.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Good stuff, Liz. Good stuff. Did you hear, my friends, that she said that if you want to grow, walk much slower?

Walk much slower. Move through the world a little more slowly. And did you hear her say that if you If you can't breathe, you can't minister.

Yeah. If you're running so fast that you're hyperventilating, how can you serve others?

I just love it. So her book, by the way, it's a great reminder of who you are in the family. So, so let's love each other well, my friends, and let's focus more on being family than following formulas.

All you heard today, you can find, of course, at the show notes by reading the transcript. Again, it's easy for you to share the podcast from there.

You can get her book. I just want you to get what you need to keep growing and to keep thinking. And let us just be who God's called us to be for him and for each other.

All right. Have a great week. I can't wait till you join me again next week at the Jennifer Rothschild Show.