4:13 Podcast: Can I Love My Neighbor As Myself? With Jada Edwards [Episode 365]

Jada Edwards: We really kind of don't understand the depth of what it means to love the way God's called us to love. So being a loving person goes far beyond acts of kindness or our personality type and really starts to lean into this divine agapao, this agape in action, initiative-taking kind of love that God gave to us first, and it shows up in some really unexpected ways.

Jennifer Rothschild: Conflict. Differences. It happens with neighbors, with coworkers, with friends, and, yes, with spouses. And right in the middle of all this messy humanness that we experience, we are called to love, to love our neighbors. But how do we do this? Like, what does love really even look like and how does it show up? Well, spoiler alert, it looks nothing like the world's conventional definition of love.

And so on today's podcast, author and Bible teacher Jada Edwards is going to reveal how we often get love wrong. But with the right definition, so much can change, including ourselves. So you are about to love this funny, insightful, and deep conversation with my friend Jada, so let's do it.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, hey. Jennifer here. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And our goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13.

We're really glad you're back with us. Hope you had a really good week and you're doing okay. We're talking about loving our neighbors, which KC decided he's not going to share a personal testimony on today because he's still working on that. Did I say that out loud?

Anyway, it's not just our neighbors, the people who live in the house or apartment next door, it's the people that we encounter. Sometimes they live in our own home, sometimes we work with them. But let's be honest, there's conflict. There's people who are like heavenly sandpaper to us, they rub us the wrong way. But it does refine us at the same time.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I was thinking, based on knowing what we're about to talk about, KC, one of my favorite episodes was Bob Goff.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: We had Bob Goff a little while ago, y'all. And we'll have a link to it on the Show Notes just so you can check it out if you hadn't. But one of the things he dealt with in living this whimsical life was dealing with people that are, you know, not as easy to hang around with. And he said that one of the things he does is -- two things that I remembered. One, he sees that person with a thought bubble above their head.

KC Wright: Ooh, that's interesting.

Jennifer Rothschild: And the thought bubble says, "I am trying to be helpful," or something like that. And I thought, okay, that's a really good way to do it.

But my very favorite is he says he comes up with an LCE. Okay. So if you've not heard this podcast, I'm not going to do it justice, but I'm going to try to paraphrase what Bob Goff suggests we do with our neighbors who are difficult to love.

We come up with an LCE, which is a least creepy explanation. Okay, come up with a least creepy explanation. All right. They're not trying to be a jerk right now; they're trying to be helpful. Or they don't think you're an idiot when they go on and on and on and on and on telling you what to do; they think that they know something that they are trying to instruct you on.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what is the least creepy explanation? They're not just annoying you about leaving your garbage can out too long because they don't like you; they care about what the neighborhood looks like. Okay.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Come up with an LCE.

KC Wright: I like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I've tried really hard to have LCEs for the people in my life who are heavenly sandpaper. And it's hard sometimes, but that's a better alternative than just being ugly, especially when, as we're about to hear, Jada talks to us about what love is and that the Bible does instruct us Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.

Ya'll, I love myself. I love myself a lot. Even on my bad days, I'm still going to feed myself, bathe myself, pamper myself. I love myself. And that's the standard that we're supposed to love our neighbor with. So with that in mind, get ready. Let's do this with Jada.

KC Wright: Jada Edwards is an author, speaker, Bible teacher, and a mentor. Studying and teaching the Bible to women is one of the greatest passions she has. While she is a lively and sought-after speaker, the local church is her heart and home. She and her husband, Conway, planted One Community Church in Plano, Texas, where she leads a regular women's Bible study and serves on the teaching team. Jada and Conway have two children, Joah and Chloe.

Let's listen in right now with Jennifer and Jada.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Jada. You and I have had the privilege -- at least a privilege to me -- to work together in ministry before, so I am super thrilled that I get to introduce you to my 4:13ers, because you're one of my favorite people. Absolutely delightful. So we're going to talk about your new book.

But I got to start with this because I was reading about your book. Okay? Just reading about your book. I hadn't been able to read the whole thing yet. But I was reading about your book and I read this one question: Are you a loving person? And I thought, hmm, I'm going to ask Jada that question right up front. So, Jada, are you a loving person? And, like, unpack that. What does it mean? So are you a loving person? What does it mean to be one?

Jada Edwards: The answer for me is I am trying my best to be better every day at it. The question, I think -- typically when people are posing that question, or even when they're saying that about someone, they're typically speaking of a kindness or a compassion or a sacrificial giving type of aspect to someone's personality or the way they relate to others.

And so when I started diving into this topic, this idea, I was like, man, we really kind of don't understand the depth of what it means to love the way God's called us to love. So being a loving person goes far beyond acts of kindness or our personality type and really starts to lean into this divine agapao, this agape in action, initiative-taking kind of love that God gave to us first, and it shows up in some really unexpected ways.

And so being a loving person is not really a subjective question based on the way someone may outwardly act. Jesus says that's the mark. "They know you're mine by your love." And so it really sent me on a deeper journey to figure out what are some ways that might not even be visible to others that I need to be more loving, that I need to love better. And so that's what began this whole journey.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, I love this. Because you're right, we assume often it's a personality type. You know, she's sweet, she's kind. She brought me a casserole. What a loving person. But you can bring someone a casserole and have hate in your heart.

Jada Edwards: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? So I really want us to unpack this, because it is the mark of God, of Christ in us. And so one of the things, though, that I have detected in my life and the life of others is it can be hard to be loving when you don't know what love is. So what do you think it is that keeps us often from fully experiencing God's love? And then how can we begin to break through those barriers so we can be God's love to others?

Jada Edwards: Yeah. It's a few things. I think there's culturally -- and I don't mean U.S. culture, I mean just as humanity has evolved, we don't have really the proper language to even kind of trigger us mentally to know the difference between what God calls us to do and how we love things commonly around us. So I think some of the time is -- you know, when you're going through Scriptures, if you study original languages, you'll start to see hesed love and ahava love. And then in the New Testament, phileo and agape. And you start to learn all these different words that mean love, but they also tell you -- they also point the person to the type of love they're referring to.

We don't really have that in our language, and so we love pizza, we love our pets, we love a car, we love vacation, we love God, we love our family. And so I think primarily we don't even really have anything that's constantly reminding us that loving my favorite food is different than loving my brother. It just kind of all gets lumped into there. You know, we love a post, we love a comment, we just love everything. And so you really get lost. You don't have anything constantly pointing you to a divine kind of love.

And then you've got other limits that the individual brings to their relationship with God, which is their past, how they were first introduced to love, you know, the home you grew up in, the role your parents did or did not play. Man, a lot of that drives the way we relate to God. And so if I relate to God from an unhealthy perspective of love, like maybe I see God as someone who just wants me to perform well like my father wanted me to perform well, or maybe I see God as controlling as my mother was controlling, or whatever the stuff is you bring from family, man, that creates a deficit in the way that we love God and the way we receive his love, and eventually it's going to affect the way we relate to others.

So I think our past and our stories and the culture around us that really does not prioritize and value sacred things. There's a lot of things contributing to our inability to receive God's love well, which is foundational for us to be able to love anyone else.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that's such a good description, because it is foundational, yet it is a -- how do I put it? I'd love to do something wordsmithy there. I can't. It's foundational, yet at the same time it's a daily practice. It's a daily reception, it's a daily --

Jada Edwards: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, I'm constantly having to recalibrate to the unconditional love of God on me. Because like you said, we may inadvertently received a definition of love that's performance based, so, boy, when I don't perform well, then I've got to earn God's love all over again.

So, Jada, I know this is -- this could be a four-hour conversation. But how do we -- like, what is a first step to being able, then, to kind of get reoriented to God's love, to that kind of love in our life, so that our identity is more secure and, therefore, we have real love to give to others? Like, what can we do?

Jada Edwards: Yeah. I think, you know, there's a -- one of the things I talk about in the book is that love is always learning, and that learning is kind of 360 degrees. It's not just you're learning about God. The more you're in the Scriptures, you start to see the breadth and the depth, the reach of his love. And if you start to try to compare that to any kind of human love, even great human love you experience, you'll just realize that it's just another stratosphere, the love of God. So that learning and staying in the Scriptures.

But then also learning about self. And I don't mean that in a self-centered kind of way, that our culture likes us to be, you know, self, self, self, but I mean in a Psalm 139 kind of way where David says, "Lord, search me and know me, try me, show me who I am." And it's David's plea -- you know, because it's not that the Lord did not know who David was. Because he spends the whole portion of Psalm 139 saying, "You know me. You know my thoughts from afar. You know when I sit down, when I rise up. You know everything. I can't flee your presence." So for him to end that Psalm and say, "But Lord, search me," like, show me myself.

So, you know, see if there's anything grievous in me or anything that's not pleasing, then lead me in the way everlasting. It's such an anchor verse for me because it reminds me that I have to constantly be asking God to show me what he already knows about me. Because I can't walk around with this partial view of myself. My life did not start at salvation. There was a whole lot of life and learning and childhood experiences that shaped who I was even before I said yes to Jesus.

And David is like, Hey, before you lead me in path in the way everlasting, or the righteous path, show me who I am. And I think as Christians, we don't do that. We're like, Show me the righteous path. Let me do my checklist of things I need to do. Be better, be kinder, be sweeter, be more forgiving. We're trying to walk in the way everlasting without having ever asked God to show us who we are. Because you have to know the deficit that you're bringing to whatever spiritual journey God's calling you to. We don't all bring the same deficit. We have different struggles. Different aspects of this journey will be harder for us based on the lives we lived.

And so that learning piece I think we skim over. And it is really, really important, because the more I know who I am, the more I'm open to where I fail or I can hear the Holy Spirit's conviction without being defensive. All of these things because I'm very aware, and I continue to be aware of what my natural shortcomings are. That was a long answer, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Wow.

Jada Edwards: -- the learning piece, man, we just -- I think Christians, we really want the doing piece. Give me a list of things I need to do to be better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and that's kind of what I set you up for, is tell me what to do. And you're basically saying no, here's what you need to be. You need to be in the presence of the Lord, be in the Word, and just let that presence saturate and reframe and recalibrate.

You know, it reminds me, Jada, one time I had a good friend who was on this spiritual journey of kind of -- I called her -- I said she was defrosting. Okay? She was just coming to this warmth of life with Christ, transitioning from a lot of stuff she had dealt with. And this one definition of love was probably part of it, a performance-based love versus just the lavished unconditional love of Jesus.

And so we were in a hotel room one night, and she was sitting in a chair across from me. And they were these big club chairs, you know. And she was telling me this thing, like, this hard thing. And I looked her and I said, "I don't know what to say to you. What would you want me to say to you right now to help you?" And she didn't say anything. She got up and she came and sat next to me in this big ol' club chair. So we're smushed in there together. And she put her arm around me and she said, "This is what I would want you to do. I don't want you to say anything, I just want you to do this."

And it was a very transformative moment for me because I realized I was trying to fix, and she just needed presence. And it was the love thing. It was the love thing. And, boy, if that's a human experience I had, how much more, Jada, can we have that with the living God --

Jada Edwards: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- through his Word and through his presence.

But I also think, sister, we need people who model it for us. You know?

Jada Edwards: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do. And one of the things you talk about in your book is, like, red flags. Okay? Because sometimes we think we're being a loving person, and we're really just being an enabler or we're tolerating nonsense from people or whatever. So what are some red flags, not just for us to be aware of, like, whether we're being loving, but whether others are being loving to us? Because that'll lead us even to talking a little bit about boundaries. So let's first talk about red flags.

Jada Edwards: Yeah. I think that can be a really nuanced kind of thing to be aware of. It has a lot to do, to me, with discernment. Because if I say, oh, it's a red flag if a person is always a taker, for example -- it's one of the little things I talk about in this little supplemental book. When you preorder, I have this little supplemental sheet talks about hard relationships. So it's so hard to create these blanket kind of rules, because a red flag -- most would say, hey, this person's a taker. They only call when they want something, they always need something, they never give back to you. And in many situations, that would be a red flag.

But the reason I always add the discernment piece is because God will call us into imbalanced relationships. And he will say, Hey, this person for this season, they don't have anything to give you. I just want you to love them well, I want you to show them what forgiveness looks like, I want you to show them what grace looks like. Don't worry about being taken advantage of. I got you. I am using you to change this person's life.

And if you don't have the discernment, you will put a blanket flag that says, oh, anybody that takes, takes, takes, takes, or any relationship where it doesn't feel reciprocal, oh, that's a red flag. I mean, it might be 85% of the time, you know, but there's always that Spirit element that calls us to illogical things.

And so the red flag to me is when you don't have the affirmation and the providence of God in your decisions in that relationship. Because you can set your own boundary that is not a God-led boundary, and it will make sense to everyone around you and not be in line with what God's asking you to do. So the flag is, is the Spirit affirming how you're engaging in this relationship, or is he convicting? If you ignore him, then you're just going to be down a bad path. And so my biggest thing is what is the Spirit asking me to do in this relationship? Because it will vary from person to person and from season to season in my own life.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so wise, Jada. I'm so glad you shared that. And it reminds me what you just shared about Psalm 139. We're constantly asking, "Lord, search me and know me so that I can go down this path." And that's that discernment. So for me, a red flag might be different for you, and it's the Spirit who shows us. Wow, this is so wise.

Okay. In your book, you also introduce five surprising ways to love others around us. Okay. I want you to share one of them that would surprise us. We love surprises. Okay? So give us a surprising way we can love somebody.

Jada Edwards: One of the things I talk about, which is one of -- a thing that has really impacted me in recent years, and that is loving people like you know their whole story. And the Lord has so challenged me with this. That whether it's the cashier that's frustrating me that's going slow or the wait staff at a restaurant, or something deep like a family member or a friend or someone I have to work with, the Lord has really impressed upon me in these last few years that, Jada, your frustrations or annoyance or even your offense, even if it's legitimate, it's based on the slice of a person that you're engaging with. That person has a whole story.

So think about the wait server or the wait staff person that's frustrating you, or your coworker who drives you crazy because they lack integrity. What if you knew how they grew up? What if you knew that they just found out about a diagnosis in their mother or their sister or their brother? What if you knew something about them that would make whatever this interaction is, whatever this tension is in this relationship, would make it very, very small compared to their story?

And there are many times where the Lord will give me a divine insight, like, just a little bit where I'm like, hmm, there's more to this than what meets the eye. And there's other times, many times, where I don't know. But it's just what I call divine imagination.

It's the same thing that makes a C.S. Lewis or, you know, somebody write a story, like write Narnia. It's not that it's biblical, but it's divine imagination where God is like, I'm showing you how to put imagery to this. And he gives it to us. It's why we can write stories and make movies and all these things. When it's for his glory, it's divine, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jada Edwards: And so anyway, this thing has changed me, Jennifer. It seems so minor, but I'm telling you, I've been in situations where I'm frustrated or this person is difficult, and I just start thinking, what could they tell me today about them and about their story that would make my frustration or my pain even seem very small?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Okay.

Jada Edwards: And it probably wouldn't take much.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it wouldn't. And, you know, that's a very humble posture. It's very Christ-like. It's empathetic, it's compassionate. And what it does, Jada, it reduces self. It's like, well, okay, maybe this moment is not all about me, you know?

Jada Edwards: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what a freedom to live that way. Girl, that's -- okay, that's really good. That is a surprising way. I love that. It's a paradigm shift.

Okay. In your book, you also emphasize curiosity, bravery, resilience, and authenticity. Those are keys to loving others well. And I can see where that little surprising way you just shared fits that. Okay? So how do those choices, though, bravery, resilience, curiosity, how do they impact our ability to love others well?

Jada Edwards: Well, they anchor us in this completeness that only God can give us so that we're not needing something from other people that they can never provide. So bravery is not because I'm a fearless person and I can just take it all, whatever you bring me, I can take it. It's not that. It's the Joshua 1 be strong and courageous kind of bravery, like, "For I am with you."

Like, you can take risks, I can love you well. You cannot reciprocate that love, and I'm not driven by fear. You me a text that hurt my feelings or not invite me to something, and that will not shut down my engagement with you unless the Lord is telling me to do that. Like, there's a fearlessness, a courage, that I don't have to muster up. But the Lord is with me, and he loves you, he loves my neighbors, he loves everybody more than I do, and so he's always guiding me.

And the same thing that shows up with curiosity. Ask questions. Ask questions. Like, we typically make our decisions about people in a moment or over the course of a relationship based on our own experiences. But again, it's just like the story part I was saying, people are bigger than their experience with you. So ask questions. Because you would want someone to ask questions.

On your crazy day that you cut somebody off in traffic or you're snippy or you don't give the right answer or you ignore a text, you just kind of wish that person knew that, oh, my gosh, this is the fourth day this week that this thing hasn't gone well or I just got back from my doctor's appointment again and found out that this treatment's not taking, or my kid is still struggling in school. Like, you want somebody to know how all that affected you not putting heart emojis on your text. So you're just like -- it's so small, but that thing sent another person into the stratosphere. Like, they're so offended, and you're like, that's so small in the scheme of my life right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jada Edwards: And I think curiosity -- I mean, it does require humility, because I have to care about who you are beyond who you are to me. I have to care about Jennifer, the whole person, beyond my interactions with her. So, I mean, it's kind of -- you can see how loving well is kind of consuming work. That's why Jesus says it's your whole identity. Because this will take work to constantly be asking the Spirit how to love well, what questions to ask. What should I ignore, what should I address.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, yeah.

Jada Edwards: You know, it's an ongoing thing.

The same thing with resilience. It means you don't give up. Love bears all things. It bears all things. And that does not mean stay in unsafe places or toxic places, it just means before you quit, you ask God, "What should I do next? What should I do?" And he will lead you in the right way, as opposed to us just deciding when we've had enough. And so it's -- you know what I'm saying? It's not to be unsafe. I don't think God ever says go be unsafe.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. No, but --

Jada Edwards: He just says, Be like me and I'll protect you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's literally what I was about to say. No, he's just calling us to be like Christ. And that means we have the wisdom of God. Those are really good. And, Jada, everything I've asked you, every answer you've given, I could pretty much summarize it with John's prayer, that I would decrease and you would increase. Honestly. Because this cannot be about us. It just can't. And I think selfish people are the least happy people ever that walked the planet. So, I mean, this is really an invitation to a better life.

But let me just focus in. You said, you know, that God's not calling us to be unsafe, et cetera. Okay, so let's talk about boundaries just for a sec. So how do we know what is a right boundary and what's just an excuse to avoid hard people or hard things?

Jada Edwards: I know I'm going to sound like a broken record. I just feel like --

Jennifer Rothschild: No. There's a good one answer here probably.

Jada Edwards: Yeah. Because, man, the Holy Spirit has to tell you. I don't think we depend on the Spirit in the minutiae things of life that we think we can handle. I really think most of us depend on the Spirit when something is clearly beyond our capacity. The trick is there's so many things that you think are within your capacity and they're not.

If you're living for God, nothing is within your capacity. Nothing. Like, every kind thing you say, every time you need to forgive, every time you extend yourself, every time you serve, all of it is supposed to be in the power of the Spirit. So I just think when it comes to relationships, we typically are self-protective and so boundaries are the default. They are the default.

And we serve a Savior who called a man who he knew would be toxic. He called Judas. Like, he called him. He didn't say, I know you're going to be a mess, I'm going to keep my eye on you for the next three years. He called him. The Scriptures don't tell us that everybody's feet got washed except Judas'. The Scriptures don't tell us that, that Judas -- Judas was at the Last Supper. Jesus was like, I know -- there's a Peter kind of betrayal and a Judas betrayal. The toxic evil person with evil intentions, Judas, versus the Peter, which most of us are and most encounter.

This is just our immaturity and our fear and insecurity showing up like betrayal, but really we don't have ill intentions, right? So you got Peters and Judases. Most people are Peters. We're Peters -- we've all done it -- versus a Judas. But here's the thing, Jennifer. They're both at the table.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Wow.

Jada Edwards: That blows me away. And even for Jesus to look at him at the Last Supper and say, Listen, basically I know what you have planned. I'll allow it. Now you can go and do what I know you're going to do. Like, I'm -- even in your evil intentions, I'm still in control. I'm still in control. And so I don't say that to scare people. I don't want people to not ever set boundaries. I just want them to be God led, because he will show you how to still love a person from a distance. Because he may say, Hey, you can't be physically near that person, but I want you praying for them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Jada Edwards: Or he may say, Hey, y'all may not be ready for a face-to-face conversation, but I just want you to text him "Happy Birthday." Like, you just never know. But if you set that boundary and close God off and you're like, Oh, this boundary, God? I got it. You'll never be able to hear when he's asking us to do divine things that will represent him well at the end of the day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I know our 4:13ers are ready to get this book. I am. This is why I love you. It's just wise and practical. And I appreciate how every time I ask you for a formula, you send me back to the Spirit. That's where we need --

Jada Edwards: I know. People are like, Where's my checklist?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? But this is so good. It reminds me a little bit, you know, Brother Lawrence, "Practicing The Presence."

Jada Edwards: Oh, my gosh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? It's the same kind of thing. It's just every little thing, every little thing for the glory of God, because there are no little things. And so constantly navigating.

Jada Edwards: And there's no copy/paste.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Jada Edwards: Because you know what, Jennifer? I've seen God, in the course of a week or a matter of days, lead me on how to interact differently with people who are very similar or who have done the same thing. There's been a person who I know was not responsible with money, and they needed money, and the Lord was like, Absolutely not. Show them this resource, give them this, tell them you'll be there, da, da, da, da, da. Same week, another person needing money, not responsible with money, and the Lord said, Give it. Give it. I need them to give it. I'm going to speak to them about grace. You do what I say.

So I've seen it in my own life where same situation or similar situation, or he tells me to do one thing with a person on Monday, and then a month later he tells me to do something different.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jada Edwards: I can't say, Oh, if you don't ever pay me back, I'll never loan you money again. Because God is like, If I never gave to you when you didn't give back to me, come on now, where would we be?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Wow. Yeah.

Jada Edwards: So you can't -- it's practically impossible to set those kind of hard markers as to how you're going to always engage with people. I'm not talking about theology and doctrine, I'm talking about --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no.

Jada Edwards: -- relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Jada Edwards: Because God is always telling us. Sometimes he's going to rebuke Peter, and sometimes he's just going to kind of roll his eyes and be like, Come on, I'm going to build my church on you. You know, like -- he does it different.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Jada Edwards: He just does it different. And so he's like, No. Moment to moment I'm going to tell you how to love this person well, so you got to keep asking me.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. And, you know, even when you did the Peter versus Judas kind of betrayals, Judas kind of self-selected out.

Jada Edwards: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think that's something we can trust the Lord with too.

Jada Edwards: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: That those ones that don't belong will self-select out eventually.

Jada Edwards: Absolutely. That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: We can trust the Lord with that.

Okay, Jada, this is fantastico. We're going to get to our last question, though. And I don't know if anything's hard for you, but I think this is a hard question. And I saved it for last. You're welcome.

Jada Edwards: Thank you, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So we've been real honest. You've been talking about the nuance of all of this. And the bottom line is we're going to get our hearts broken, we're going to get offended, we're going to do it right and it's going to turn out wrong. Okay? All the stuff. That's all going to eventually happen at some point with somebody in our lives. All right? So how do we handle forgiveness? Like, what role does forgiveness play in loving others well? And, like, what is a very practical way that someone who's struggling right now with forgiveness or unforgiveness, what's a very practical step they can take even today?

Jada Edwards: I would say two things. One, ask the Lord the level or the depth of the offense or the pain that you're feeling. Because sometimes, depending on our temperament, Jennifer, the ignored text message or not being invited to the dinner sends us into an orbit that's disproportionate to the offense. And then there's some of us who are so resilient and self-built that we've got deep childhood trauma that we just push to the back of our minds and, like, we got to live life and press through. That's also disproportionate to the level of offense.

So I think the first question I have to ask myself is, Lord, what is really happening? What's the pain? What's the offense that I'm feeling here? Because if I don't have a good handle on that, I cannot properly determine what it's going to take for me to release that to the Lord.

If I minimize sexual abuse as a child and think, well, I'm just a pusher through, I can figure it out, I'm going to hustle, I'll work through it, God is good, say my prayers, life -- I don't have time to deal with that, I will minimize the work that I need to do to really heal from that, and that forgiveness will follow me in every area -- that unforgiveness will follow me around.

And on the flip side, if there's something that's relatively minor, but because I've got my own wounds, I will think that I need to be in two years of therapy to deal with not being invited to that dinner. And the Lord is like, Girl, come on now, there's something else going on, it's not about the dinner. And so asking those questions of what is really offending me? What is the pain? What's the hurt? What's the level? Because I'm probably minimizing it or maximizing it or not seeing it in some healthy way.

Then the second question is, Lord, how do I honestly give that to you? What does that mean? Because, man, I think many times it's more than a prayer. It's more than, Lord, I leave it at the altar, I lay it at your feet. We have all these great sayings. But what does that mean?

There have been things in my life where the Lord has said, I need you to grieve the loss of that. You can say you gave it to me, but I need you to imagine now, Jada, that five years from now, hey, this person may not be in this special part of your life. Grieve what that really means if there's no reconciliation. Because you can have forgiveness without reconciliation. Grieve it. Like, tell me what dream you think is going to be blown up. Tell me what fear you -- like, we have to walk through that so that I understand truly the depth of what I'm giving to God. Do you know what I'm saying?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

Jada Edwards: I just think we make that so light sometimes. And we can release it and, like, God, yes, I don't want to hold this person accountable for owing me this debt. But then the healing part may not be so quick.

And so practically, I would encourage people to ask God to show them what is the level or what's the depth of this pain or this offense that I'm feeling? Am I making light of it or am I making too much of it? Tell me what to do, God. And then how are you calling me to practically give this back to you so that I'm not carrying this? And I just don't know that that's overnight work. That's asking the Lord again, Search me. What is this thing?

Because I'm telling you, I've had some things that I thought I had dealt with. I had some things that happened in my childhood that I literally had not thought about. That's why people think they're over it, because you literally can disassociate and not think about it. And it wasn't until I had children. I was a grown woman. It wasn't until I had children that I did not realize this unhealthy fear and anxiety kept creeping up. And I finally started thinking about it and ended up going to a counselor, because the Lord was like, Girl, this thing has always been there. But now that you have kids, it's coming back.

And so I had to deal with that all over again like it was fresh, because I had never really dealt with it. You know what I'm saying?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, 100%. And then it unclutters your ability to really recognize what the level of pain is, what the level of offense is, and then it also clears the path for you to give it to the Lord. But you know what I love you said too? Yeah, we give it to the Lord, but the healing may take a little longer.

Jada Edwards: It may take a little longer. And it can come in cycles. You'll be like, I'm good. Then some other life event, some reality will happen, and you're like, Oh, I need to re-address this at a different level, you know. So those things can happen.

If you got, for example, father trauma or father wounds, well, there's a level of healing that just has to happen for you to be a healthy, functioning adult. Well, it's probably going to require additional healing once you get married, because now you're realizing, oh, that was another deficit. My father affected the way I love well in my marriage. Oh, my father affected the way I parent. You have kids and another level of healing has to be unlocked.

So sometimes those things -- that healing changes or requires more of us as our life changes and we start realizing that there's other areas of some pain that we have to grieve. And so I think it's just an ongoing thing. The release, the not needing something from another person, that actual forgiveness can happen relatively quickly, but the healing process of what you're releasing, I think, can take some time.

KC Wright: All right, let me drop some of the truth bombs we just heard from Jada. Okay? Truth bomb number one, healing may take longer than releasing it. Number two, ask God to show you the level of pain. Number three, you don't want to make light or too much of it. Okay? Ask him -- number four, ask him, God, how are you calling me to give it back to you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Good job. Okay. Bam.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And those were just a few, y'all. I mean, the girl was on fire. So you need to read this transcript. It's going to be on the Show Notes, of course, at 413podcast.com/365. And, of course, you can also get her book there.

KC Wright: Yes. We're giving one away. So go to Jennifer's Instagram right now, or to the Show Notes, to connect to win the free book.

This was some really, really, really good stuff today, as always, so share this with a friend. While you were listening, the Holy Spirit may have shown you a face of someone you need to share this podcast with. Listen to it again and again if you want to. And we'll also link you to some other podcasts we've had that support Jada's message.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, exactly. Because Karen Ehman, she talked about hospitality on Episode 149 -- we'll have that on the Show Notes -- and it was super practical. So that'll be there at 413podcast.com/365.

KC Wright: All right, our people. We do love you. 100% feel the podcast hug. We love you, and we mean it. And we would never complain about where you put your trash can.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: Never. Okay? We can love our neighbor. You can love your neighbor because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's funny. At least we wouldn't complain out loud about where the neighbor put the garbage can. Oh, my goodness.

KC Wright: Oh, goodness.