4:13 Podcast: Can I Forgive and Make It Stick? With Debbie Barr [Episode 352]

Debbie Barr: What forgiveness doesn't mean is that what was done to you is okay. It doesn't mean that the person is not accountable for what they did and it doesn't mean that your pain doesn't matter or you should, quote, just get over it. It's not that at all. And when we understand that that's what it's not, we can better appreciate what it is. And what it is is the decision to no longer hold somebody's offense against them. It's a choice to cancel the debt it feels like they owe you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Making the brave choice to forgive can benefit us in a million ways. In fact, it sets us free. Even more amazing is the mysterious fact that God can bring something good out of even your worst painful wounds.

Today's guest, author Debbie Barr, is going to explain the high price that we pay to our mental, emotional, and physical health when we choose to hold on to resentment, bitterness, or thoughts of revenge. My friends, you are going to get a little science, a little psychology, and a lot of Scripture to help you, so let's rise to this challenge of forgiveness. All right, get ready to get free. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live what we call the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. We're so glad you're with us. Spring has sprung and we're happy in the podcast closet today. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. You know by now it's just two friends and one topic and zero stress. And I'm Jennifer. My goal, along with KC, is to help you be and do more than you even feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life. And forgiveness is sometimes one of those things we do not feel capable of, so you're about to get some really good news today, my friend.

We're recording this a little bit early, because I am technically right now, as you are listening, at my son's wedding. Yes. So I'm sure right now I've got on dancing shoes as you're listening. But right now actually, I'm in the podcast with KC with tennis shoes on. And, y'all, Phil was out of town, my husband was out of town, and so I had a nail appointment this morning, so I asked KC to pick me up.

KC Wright: Which is such an honor.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is so kind.

KC Wright: Please.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so Phil was like, "Yeah, get KC. That's awesome." So KC's picking me up. I send him a text, and I told you where it was -- and it was called Indulge Salon -- and you were just a few minutes late. And the reason was?

KC Wright: Well, we as a society, we are not using our brains anymore. Okay, at least I'm not. And we just type things into our GPS, our little things on our iPhones, and my iPhone sent me to another nail salon on the same highway, but across from a tire shop. And I walk in there and I'm like, "Where's my JR?" And I got all these ladies in front of me going, "You want your nails done? You want your nails done?" I'm like, "No. No, I don't want" -- "We can do your feet. You want your feet done?" "No. I'm looking for my co-host."

And so, praise God, I reread the text. You know, us men, we don't listen or read very well sometimes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's true.

KC Wright: So I reread the text, instead of just typing in the address, and lo and behold, she told me in the text where this place was. Drove straight there and, oh, oh, there's the sign. You talk about pressure. I am driving a national treasure --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, please.

KC Wright: -- through this city. I am.

Jennifer Rothschild: And by the way --

KC Wright: A national treasure.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- we were in the Jeep. We were in the Jeep. I felt like I was 15 years old jumping up in that thing with that -- what's it called? A pull bar?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, man, that was fun. I'm glad I had on my tennis shoes because I had to do some trekking up there. Yeah, but we were in the Jeep. We went through Starbucks --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and we are now here. I've got today a Flat White with me, and KC's got an Americano.

KC Wright: Americano with cream.

Jennifer Rothschild: With cream.

KC Wright: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's it. So we're being pretty well behaved with our coffees.

All right. So anyway, we are super thankful we get to be together and, most importantly, that we get to be with you. And by the way, KC was telling me -- you did send me a text, which I did read, that said, "Hey, we need to remember to ask our friends for reviews."

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So we're asking you for reviews. We haven't had a review -- we've had a lot of ratings. So when y'all leave ratings, that's so great and --

KC Wright: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- we are super thankful. But if you take it one step further and write a few words, like a review, that makes it even more helpful. So if you haven't done that, do it. We need it. The 4:13 needs it. It just keeps us active on the platforms where you listen. So please leave us a review, an honest review -- as long as it's nice, an honest review --

KC Wright: A kind review.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- otherwise, just keep it to yourself.

KC Wright: Yes, please.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's get to this conversation, because it's super life-giving.

KC Wright: Debbie Barr is an author and speaker with a passion for encouraging people to engage deeply with God as they journey through tough times. She's a Master Certified Health Education Specialist with degrees in journalism and health education. She lives in beautiful North Carolina, but today she is a 4:13er. Here's Jennifer and Debbie.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Debbie, I'm really glad we're having this conversation, because, unfortunately, it applies to all of us. It's on forgiveness. So I want us to talk about a definition. So what does forgiving someone not mean? Okay? Not what does it mean, but what does forgiving someone not mean?

Debbie Barr: You are so wise to put it in that order, because that is really important. I think when we don't really understand what it's not, it keeps us from actually forgiving people. So I like to start with that too.

What forgiveness doesn't mean is that what was done to you is okay. It doesn't mean that the person is not accountable for what they did and it doesn't mean that your pain doesn't matter or you should, quote, just get over it. It's not that at all. And when we understand that that's what it's not, we can better appreciate what it is.

And what it is is the decision to no longer hold somebody's offense against them. It's a choice to cancel the debt it feels like they owe you. And that mirrors, you know, what God did for us, because we had a debt of sin that was canceled on the cross by what Jesus did. And so when we forgive, we do for another person what God did for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that right there is part of the reason I didn't start with what forgiveness is, because that feels lofty. Okay? That feels so hard. And outside of Christ, we can't do that. And let's be honest at the beginning of this conversation, sometimes we don't want to. I mean, you know, if somebody's messed with us, sometimes we don't want to forgive them, Debbie.

So it's interesting that you say in your book that forgiveness, though -- there's benefits to it. Because you mention it has a decisional, but it also has an emotional component. So can you talk about what that difference is between a decisional and an emotional component when we forgive?

Debbie Barr: Yeah. And this is part of what I think people just generally don't know. There's so much more to forgiveness than we typically think about.

There is such a thing as forgiveness research. And what forgiveness research has come up with, they've told us there are two components to forgiveness. One is the decisional component, and the other is the emotional component. And so for Christians, arriving at the decisional component is really pretty quick and easy because we know God wants us to forgive. But our emotions often lag behind that and it's not so easy to arrive at the emotional green light.

But one of the things that I learned in writing this book, which was fascinating to me, there's actually a biological reason for that. In our brain we have this structure called the amygdala. We've got one on the left, one on the right. And it is the job of the amygdala to kind of tag emotional experiences or painful experiences in such a way that we don't forget them. And the reason for that, of course, is, you know, that's a survival thing. The reason you don't put your hand on the stove, the hot stove, the second time is because you remember what happened when you did it the first time.

And so that's the reason I love to tell people this. It's a mistake to wait for your emotions to give you the green light to forgive. Because while memories, you know, tend to dim over time, if something has been done to you that's really, really wrong or really, really painful, there's very little chance you're ever going to completely forget it, and that's why forgiveness is ultimately a decision of the will and not the emotions.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then I guess once you make that decision through Christ's power and grace, then you just have to keep reminding your emotions. And in a minute I want us to talk a little bit more about that -- well, what I think is a myth, forgive and forget, because you just kind of addressed it. So I want to go there in just a moment.

But before we do, I'm curious, because I think there are -- from your forgiveness research, you discovered even some physical and health benefits that come from forgiveness. So what's that spin on that? What's the benefit of forgiveness physically?

Debbie Barr: That's such a great question. And we don't often think about that either. But when we're harboring toxic emotions like revenge or bitterness or anger, that doesn't help us feel good physically or emotionally. It enters into our other relationships. You know, eventually it spills out. And we can also become so wrapped up in that hurt, you know, ruminating over what was done, what was said, that we stop enjoying the present. We lose our valuable enriching connections with other people. So forgiveness, the benefits of that are better mental health, happiness, less depression, less stress, better relationships. And that's what God wants for us. God wants all of that for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, when you described early on how forgiveness is basically canceling someone's debt, and then you just mentioned harboring resentment and those toxic emotions that come from unforgiveness, it's like we're the ones trying to say everyone is -- you are still in prison because of what you did to me. But, gosh, what you just described is we're imprisoning ourselves, because we're the ones --

Debbie Barr: You're exactly right. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We are. And, you know, the stress headaches, the resentment, it does, it affects all of our relationships. We almost develop our own sense of like, well, I'm just waiting for the next person to hurt me, and so we're guarded. And it is a vicious cycle.

So I'm curious then, if we want to forgive -- which, of course, we do, especially when we are in Christ -- is there a connection between empathizing with the person who may have violated you and forgiving them?

Debbie Barr: Yeah, there actually is. And this is another fascinating thing that I came upon in researching this book. The truth is, if we can dig deep and find some empathy for a person who has hurt us, it is easier to forgive them. And so what we have to do, though, is put that hurt on hold for a second long enough to think about that person, what might be going on in their life, you know, that contributed to that hurtful thing they said or that awful thing they did.

You know, are they going through a divorce? Have they just lost their job? Does their child have cancer? Have they just buried a loved one? You know, if there's a yes in there somewhere, it helps us to have empathy. And empathy for that person makes it a little easier to forgive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And if you think, Debbie, sometimes even the hurt that they're acting out of may have happened decades before we met them when they were a child. Maybe they were spoken to terribly by a parent and so it's their natural reaction to speak terribly to you, you know, when they're upset.

Debbie Barr: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you know what I hear you saying, too -- and I'm curious about this -- it seems to me forgiveness is a very self-reducing, it's a very humbling act on our behalf. Talk to me about that.

Debbie Barr: How do you mean humbling?

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean --

Debbie Barr: I mean, just kind of -- yeah, go ahead, tell me.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't mean -- and I'm glad you clarify that. I don't mean humiliating. I mean more like we have to have almost a posture of humility to realize, okay, I've been violated. This person may have been violated in their past. I'm going to humble myself, not put myself up on this big pedestal and saying, You got to make it right. You owe me. But instead, I'm going to humble myself, have empathy for you, forgive like Christ. That's the kind of humility I mean.

Debbie Barr: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can't see forgiveness happening without that humility. So talk to me about that.

Debbie Barr: I think you're completely correct about that. The type of forgiveness you're talking about -- I'll just say, I was amazed to discover something I really didn't know when I started writing this book was that there are actually two kinds of forgiveness.

One is called unilateral forgiveness, and that's the type you're talking about. It's one-sided forgiveness that takes place entirely within the mind and the heart of the offended person. The person who caused that hurt is not even involved. And because unilateral forgiveness requires nothing from the person who caused the offense -- here's the thing. It doesn't matter if that other person has even asked you for forgiveness. It doesn't matter if they have no remorse for what they did. It doesn't matter if they're not speaking to you. It doesn't even matter if they've passed away, which kind of is a throwback to the childhood hurts.

We can still forgive them, because the purpose of unilateral forgiveness is to set us free. You know, it's for our peace of mind and heart and our happiness and our spiritual freedom from the toxic effects of resentment and unforgiveness. And that's where the title of the book comes from, "Forgiveness: The Choice that Sets You Free."

The other kind of forgiveness, it does involve that other person and potentially, you know, results in restoration of a relationship. But I think it starts with that humility of unilateral forgiveness to work that through with God and to say, I choose to forgive this person. And that actually sets you up to be in a good position to then go to them and transact -- you know, to do that transactional forgiveness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's really a good differentiation. I appreciate that. And I think that gives us even a greater sense of security that our forgiveness is not dependent upon someone else's response.

Because in your book, you also talk about forgiveness and reconciliation and trust. Okay? So reconciliation and trust. So how are these related?

Debbie Barr: Well, one way to think about it is forgiveness is kind of focused on the past. It's something that happened, you know, in the past. Reconciliation would be something that you can do in the present. Trust is in the future because trust has to be earned.

And I like to put it like this: Forgiveness is not glue, meaning it's not always possible to reconcile with that other person. And it's not always safe either. If there's been physical abuse or violence or addiction or, you know, something really serious, you can forgive them. You can do that unilateral forgiveness. But putting that relationship back together may not be safe, at least not without some kind of professional oversight there. And God always wants us to forgive, no matter what happens after that, whether the relationship can be restored or not.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. And trust may never -- yeah, trust may never be a result of forgiveness. And that's okay. I think that's why it's so good you're helping us -- you're giving us a very narrow lane to understand what forgiveness is. Because I think sometimes as Christians we think it has to be all the things. We have to be holding hands, singing Kum ba yah, trusting. No, we don't. We don't. And you mentioned, though, it's as God leads, as the Spirit leads.

One of the things you talk about in your book, too, which -- the reason I'm drilling down on this is because I think these are all concepts that get thrown in the same bucket, and when we don't focus on them, we may overlook them. So you talk about in your book forgiveness that is withheld. Okay. So talk to us about that idea of forgiveness that is withheld and why that matters.

Debbie Barr: Well, I can tell you from personal experience, the reason it matters, at least to the person who's needing that, is it hurts. It hurts to be humble enough to ask for forgiveness and that forgiveness being withheld.

People are slow many times to arrive at forgiveness. And I guess the encouragement that I've also seen from a situation in my own life where a person was withholding forgiveness for years, eventually they change their mind. And so because we all have that amygdala, you know, tagging that and the pain is there, people don't always arrive quickly at forgiveness. And so if you ask for forgiveness and that person isn't ready to forgive you, it doesn't mean they won't change their mind at some point, especially if you're praying for that person, praying for that to happen.

But in the meanwhile, Romans 12:18, when you ask for forgiveness, we should remember that what Paul told us is that as far as it depends on you, you know, be at peace with everyone. And so if you've asked and they're withholding, though that's painful, you've done what you can do, and you leave the results of that with God, and so you can feel good about what you did regardless of their response.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word, Debbie. Good hard word, but good word.

Well, and let's go back, because you've mentioned it a couple of times because you've talked about how we can't just make ourselves forget something. And I'm grateful we're talking about this, because I think that forgive and forget, assuming they're synonymous, it sends us down the wrong path often. So since we can't always forget, and maybe time does help us forget a little bit, or rebrand the memory, what can we do in a very practical way? How can we handle these painful memories when they come up?

Debbie Barr: You know, that is the tough part. And I wish I had a -- oh, just do this, one, two, three.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So do I, Debbie. So do I.

Debbie Barr: Yeah. So I personally don't have that at all. But the thing I think that we have to keep coming back to -- I think you actually said it -- is we have to sit before God with the emotions, you know, reaffirm, I choose to forgive this person. But you know what, Lord? This still really hurts. And just to sit with God on that part of it. Because we can choose to forgive, but we can't choose to forget. And it's only God's work in us.

And just like a physical wound -- you know, if you have surgery, you're not going to be out jogging the next day. Depending on what was said or done, wow, you know, that can really knock you out for a while. And we just have to kind of heal with God, you know, let him work within our heart, you know, to mitigate the painful reality of, hey, I was treated like that and it's hurtful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and acknowledging it. Like you said, acknowledging it is part of the healing. To not acknowledge it or to do the -- like you were talking at the very beginning, you know, about the myths about forgiveness basically, one of them is I shouldn't feel this way. And that's not true. So to be able to acknowledge that emotion is healthy.

And one of the things I've done, Debbie, for me -- and it's hard because it is an act of the will, and emotions are so powerful -- I literally have learned over the years to tell myself, I will not always feel this way.

Debbie Barr: Yes. Oh, good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? And it doesn't make sense at the time because it's like, no, I will always feel this way, here is the prophecy of my future, and it's not true. It's not time that heals. But God uses time. God uses maturity and growth and empathy and all those things to help us. So, yeah, I think -- because I've had an experience with someone and -- a terrible betrayal and unjust situation, and I thought literally, I will never forgive you. You will never deserve it. And you know what? The person did not deserve forgiveness. But holding on to it, Debbie, those toxic emotions, the resentment, it hurt me far worse than it hurt that person, I'm convinced.

Debbie Barr: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so thank you, Lord, for the freedom to forgive. So thank you for explaining to us the decisional and the emotional component. Life's too short, isn't it, sister --

Debbie Barr: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know, to bind ourselves up in all the toxicity of unforgiveness.

Debbie Barr: Yeah. And to say, you know, because I feel this way, I must not have forgiven. No, no. When you feel that way, all that means is your memory's working.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Debbie Barr: It doesn't mean you haven't forgiven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's good. And it's saying God fearfully and wonderfully put me together so that my amygdalas, they are just helping me protect myself in the future. But I'm safe in the Lord, so we can not have to have full theory over these emotions each time we feel them. All right, sister, this is so practical.

And, our 4:13ers, I'm going to link you to Debbie's book. Some of you right now are already googling it. Just pause. Okay? We'll link you to the book because you need the book. I need the book. To me, Debbie, it's such a practical resource. And I can even just tell, from the sound of your voice, it's a comforting resource. Thanks for doing the hard work of putting it together for us.

But I will get to the last question for us today. So there's people listening, and they are, you know, feeling the, oh, crud. We're talking about forgiveness. I know I need to. And I know I need to forgive, but I am really struggling to forgive. So what would you tell that person right now in a very practical way? Where can they start? How can they change their thinking and then how can they change their action and start today with forgiveness?

Debbie Barr: Well, I would say for believers, just to remember that just like parents have house rules, like, the house rule is you always tell the truth or the house rule is you must knock on a closed door before you open it, you know, God has house rules for his kids too. For us. And one of the house rules is you must forgive. It is not optional for Christians. For Christians, it is a step of obedience.

It's -- you know, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" This, for many of us, is the hardest thing we will ever have to trust God with. But it is a step of obedience. It is -- also, we can't forget that the reason that's a house rule is because God wants us to have that inner peace, that freedom, that lack of toxic, damaging emotions that's going to impact our other relationships and our ministry for him.

You know, really our whole life, if we cling to it -- if we wait for time to heal, hmm-mm. It's what you do with the time. And what we do with the time is we make the choice to forgive as a step of obedience, and then we just kind of have to wrestle through and struggle through those painful emotions that are not really going to go away just because we want them to.

KC Wright: God has house rules, and one of those is forgiveness. So, family, let's trust God and do what he says.

By the way, if forgiveness is hard for you, welcome to the club.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: Just welcome to being human.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: We've got some other great podcasts on forgiveness, and we will link you to those on the Show Notes. Lysa TerKeurst, by the way, she talks about it, and some other great guests do too that we've had on the show. Go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/352 to get connected, read a transcript, and find Debbie's book simply titled "Forgiveness: The Choice that Sets You Free."

And you can win one of Debbie's books right now at Jennifer's Instagram. Just simply go to Instagram and look for @jennrothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. That's all it takes.

Well, like I said, I'm probably putting on my dancing shoes about now in Austin, Texas -- yee-haw -- ready to dance at a wedding. And this is, by the way, if you didn't hear a few weeks ago, our youngest son. It's his wedding to Chloe. So Connor and Chloe are getting married. And it's the last one. Yeah. So it's the sweetest. Anyway...

One thing I was thinking, by the way, before we say goodbye, KC, any time we talk about forgiveness, I always think of Stormie Omartian, because she said that forgiveness does not make other people right; forgiveness makes you free. That's a good word.

All right, our people, forgive. You can, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, KC. By the way, you know what my nails are called?

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Romantic.

KC Wright: Well, they're beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's like a milky color. And I understand that the royal family in England, the princesses are only allowed to wear, like, this color and one other --

KC Wright: Okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- really light.

KC Wright: I've heard that too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So there you go. Just go ahead, call me Her Royal Highness.

KC Wright: Yes. Hello, Queen.