Jennifer Rothschild Show: Am I Being Controlling or Just Being Responsible? with Lysa TerKeurst

**NOTE: This transcript was automatically transcribed and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Lysa TerKeurst: Usually where I see control showing up in my life and in other people's lives that I've talked to about this message, it's people who are responsible, people who are highly capable, and people who are very caring. Now, those are really good words. It's good to be responsible.

It's good to be caring. It's good to be capable. But it's when we take that too far, then we start to slip over into controlling tendencies, and we may not even recognize it.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not that I want to be controlling. It's just that I want to keep bad things from happening, and I want to keep the peace. That all sounds right, doesn't it?

So why does it sometimes go so wrong? Well, today, Lysa TerKeurst is going to debunk the myth of control. You know, where we believe everything depends on us.

We are about to learn the core beliefs that fuel control, find out the difference between being Controlling and being responsible and learn how to let go. Ooh, this is gonna be so good. So let's grow.

Well, hey, you're at the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow, and I am so glad you're here. And just in case you don't remember, that is why you're here, because you are a thoughtful person.

It is God's word that helps us grow and these kinds of conversations that help us to think more broadly. And we're going to talk about something today that sadly I have a lot of personal experience with, control. You might also, but here's what astounded me, my friend, when Lisa and I were talking, what I thought was control-isms were not what she said were control-isms.

You are going to really learn a lot, but I learned something already from my friend Lori. Now I've told you about Lori Cooley in the past before. She's one of my dearest friends and she better be listening right now.

But Lori and I were talking a couple of summers ago about situations in our life where we wish we could control them and we couldn't. And so I particularly called her one night and was talking to her about something like that. And she said, do you remember what I showed you with your hands?

And of course I remembered. So I did it with her on the phone and I'm going to teach it to you because it's going to help you if you deal With control issues, like I think we all do. Can we be honest?

So what she told me to do first, and what I'm going to ask you to do first, is just open your hands. Okay? This is the posture we want to have.

Open hands toward others, open hands toward the Lord, because when your hands are open, you can receive, right? So I have my hands open right here, sitting in front of this computer, in front of this microphone, palms up to the ceiling. My hands are open and they're relaxed.

And then Lori told me to make a fist with both hands, and I'm doing that right now. And I want you to do that also. Make a Fist and make it kind of a hard fist, like you're gonna hold on to something, like you have something in your hand you don't want to fall out, so you're doing a pretty tight grip.

Then she said, now I want you to squeeze as hard as you can, almost so that you're making indentions with the top of your fingernails into the palm of your hand. I'm doing it right now. I want you to do it too and keep doing it.

It starts to get uncomfortable, doesn't it? I mean, my, my hands are hurting right now. I'm doing it so hard.

Feel that tension. Feel that difficulty. Feel that pain.

And then open your hands and let go. Do you feel the relief when your hands are open again after clinging that tightly? You feel such relief.

That right there is a good physical representation of what happens to us when we try to control. We don't grasp loosely. We try to control things that are out of our control.

We hold onto them. But then what happens is we grasp So tightly that we start to feel the pain. And until we let go, do we recognize really the pain we were putting ourselves through?

I want you to remember that image in your mind. Remember what your hands feel like as you did that, as you listen to this conversation, uh, with my friend Lisa TerKeurst. We've been friends for a super long time, and she is the author, as you know, of many bestsellers, 8 actually.

And the one we're talking about today is Can I Make Peace, or How to Make Peace with The Things I Can't Control. Hmm. The girl is wise and she's warm and she's our buddy.

So just settle in and let's enjoy this conversation with Lisa TerKeurst.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Lisa, your book is about control and that's an issue that pops up every now and then with me, maybe even this morning before our conversation. So I would love for you to unpack What the cause, if there is just one cause, of control issues is.

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, here's the thing. I think when we hear the word control issues, it immediately starts to put a picture in our mind of somebody who's overly controlling or somebody who's been controlling in our life and we didn't like it.

And so, it's easy for us to think about it from that vantage point, but I think a lot of us, if we're struggling with anxiety, fear, and wanting to make outcomes different in our life, chances are we're struggling with control, but we probably wouldn't call it that because we're not power hungry.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's— okay, that's true. We're not power hungry. That's not why I feel like I'm having control issues.

Lysa TerKeurst: That's right. The root of it isn't power. Usually where I see control showing up in my life and in other people's lives that I've talked to about this message, it's people who are responsible, people who are highly capable, and people who are very caring.

Now, those are really good words. It's good to be responsible. It's good to be caring.

It's good to be capable. But it's when we take that too far, then we start to slip over into controlling tendencies, and we may not even recognize it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I don't know that I would have. But when you break it down that way, um, yeah, I could see. Because even the frustration that I was dealing with today, I thought, well, my issue is not control.

My issue is I want to do the right thing. I can't fix the problem. I wish they would do such and And such, you know, and, and so I put a whole different vocabulary to it, but as you describe it, okay, there is some control there probably.

So in your book, you say that control often stems from 7 longings. Now I thought this was fascinating, so I would love for you to unpack this for us. What are— I mean, maybe you can name all 7 longings, but if not, just hit the highlights.

What are the longings that control stems from?

Lysa TerKeurst: Absolutely. So these are those driving motivations that we have because there's something we're trying to do, and, and controlling is sort of a, a way to hopefully get this that we want. So I control because I want to prevent something, or I'm trying to protect.

I want to make sure that something doesn't happen or something doesn't get worse.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst: I want to— I control because I want to pretend. I want to sweep things under the rug so that I don't have to deal with hard realities or prepare. I want to control because I never want to get caught off guard.

Or one of my favorite is predict. I control because overthinking and over-processing and overanalyzing give me a greater chance at making sure that the future is going to line up the way that I want it to line up, and that, that feels good to me. That again, maybe I'm trying to brace for impact.

So all of these words, again, is it wrong to prevent? Is it wrong to protect? Is it wrong to prepare or to predict?

None of those things are really bad in and of themselves. But what can happen is we start throwing out statements like, oh, everything depends on me, or I'm the one holding everything together. Or we start saying, like, the only hope that anybody has for this to get better is if I keep working to change it.

And, and then probably the classic one is, if I don't try to control this, then it's gonna come back to hurt me and hurt someone that I love. And so our motivation, like I said before, it's usually not I'm power hungry. It's usually because there's dynamics going on that we feel if we do not step in, Then things are gonna go really poorly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. This is really uncomfortably, uh, clear to me. So, because I'm dealing with a situation where this— you just— if I, I literally feel like you were on the other side of the phone when I was having a conversation this morning, because I get this, girl.

I get it. And so as I hear it, I think, yeah, none of it's wrong, but it doesn't make me feel right. Like something about it just doesn't feel right.

And so, that must be because I'm trying to do something I wasn't designed for. Try to help me understand; just sit in the role of my counseling friend. Why doesn't it feel right if the longings are not wrong?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, because at the end of the day, you know, ultimately, you cannot control another person. You cannot make a circumstance go in the direction that you want it to. So, I have these little mantras that I say to myself when I'm— I feel kind of stuck in a situation where I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't wanna control, but also, you know, what's gonna happen?

What's gonna happen if I don't? And so here's some mantras, and maybe this'll help, because sometimes if we have— if we can vocalize things and we have verbiage to put around it, then we can give our brain a place to park rather than in all the anxiety swirling in our, in our brain. So here are a couple of these little mantras.

I can't rescue them. I can only help them within reason.

I cannot make them see things my way. I can only share my perspective and pray for them.

I can't change them. I can only change myself for the better.

I can't save them. I can only point them to the real Savior.

And I can't say— I can't stop them from saying hurtful things. I can only have healthy boundaries and remove myself if necessary.

So when I've done all of that, I must rest in the fact that I have done enough. But here's the feeling... It's uncomfortable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm. So it may not feel ever so comfortable, especially because if you've been one who has lived with that level of overthinking and hyper-responsibility, those are the masks of control. Yeah, it feels odd because suddenly you're unmoored from what you've always done.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, so was this you, Lisa? Was this you? Do you know this because you lived it?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, here's what's kind of ironic about me, and maybe the same is true for you too. If we were hanging out today, which we've done many, many times, you would probably agree with me. I'll let you decide where we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: And I'll let you decide, like, where we eat and what we do. And I'm not gonna be the one that steps in and says, I have to be large and in charge all the time. That's not me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nope. Right. I agree.

Lysa TerKeurst: But if something happens and fear gets stirred up in me that this is gonna go poorly, and whoever I'm with is not acknowledging that this could go poorly, or they're saying it'll be fine when I already know it's not fine, or they put me in a situation where their poor choices, I fear, are gonna cause them to have consequences that then will affect or impact me because I'll feel responsible to help them, or they're gonna come to me for help, that's where this gets stirred up in me.

So it's not that I'm a naturally controlling person, but I've had enough worst-case scenarios in my life where I can no longer say, worst-case scenario won't happen, best-case scenario won't happen, it'll land in the middle. That just hasn't been my experience.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst: And so I do have the tendency, if fear comes at me, and I start to fear that things are gonna get out of control and it's gonna cause suffering for me or someone I love, then that's where I step in and I can find myself quicker than I can even think, starting to want to control things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yep. Okay. I identify, and I do, I see that.

So what do you do? Like all those mantras that you recited, those were super helpful. And I noticed they all started with I can't.

And so for me, as I'm hearing that, I'm thinking probably even though I'm not power-hungry as one of my roots of control, I do still want power. I'm trying to manage an issue. I'm trying to have some sense of power.

But all of your mantras that you quoted said, I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't. So talk to me about that weird juxtaposition of powerlessness and how that gives you a sense of stability within things you can't control.

Lysa TerKeurst: Right. Well, it helps me stay in tune with reality. Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs.

So if I feel like Oh, I can make them see things my way. I can stop them from saying hurtful things. I can change them.

I can save them. If I keep saying that, that means that I am losing touch with reality. And I, I know now, I guess at 57, that I have to know where that paper-thin line is between being responsible and being controlling.

And so it really comes down to the word outcome. If I'm being responsible, that means I do all I can do to manage whatever it is in front of me. And I do all I can do, but I recognize where efforts are no longer effective.

Like, I can manage me, but I cannot manage you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: And regarding the outcome, ultimately, I have to trust the Lord with how this is gonna go, because I can't force it to go in any one direction. So that's how I know I'm being responsible. If I'm being controlling, then I'll do everything I can do to manage, and then I'm gonna start managing things that are outside of my control.

And regarding the outcome, I'm only willing to accept the outcome that I think is best. So that word outcome is really important as we examine this. So let me bring it down to practical everyday life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: So if you are in a situation, like maybe a conversation that you had earlier today, there's 2 things that I've learned to say. There's 2 statements. And the first thing that you say is when someone shares something that they're doing and it causes you like, That, that you already know that's not gonna go well.

So your first statement is, are you open to a thought? And if they say yes, then share all the wisdom that you wanna share. But when they make their final decision, even if, and especially if it doesn't go in alignment with your wisdom that you shared, your second statement is okay.

And that's how you can participate and be responsible and still share your wisdom. But at the end of the day, when they make their decision, the only thing left to do at that point is to say, okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Lysa TerKeurst: And I learned that lesson over and over and over with having adult children, because it's really hard when I'm— I have 57-year-old wisdom, and I'm looking at a 30-year-old's problem. And so, I have wisdom that I'm like, I can already see where this is gonna go. And so, I wanna prevent you from making this decision.

And look, my kids are not bad. They're really good kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, they're good and smart.

Lysa TerKeurst: But as mama bear and someone who has wisdom that's 57 years old, I've learned a lot. I've seen a lot. I can— I'm pretty good at predicting a lot.

And so it gets kind of complicated. But I just learned over and over and over, they're adults. And so I wanna be able to give wisdom without strings attached.

Wisdom with strings attached, that means that you're gonna try to force them to not only listen to your wisdom, but also go in the direction that you want. That's controlling. But when you share your wisdom, they make their decision, and it's not in alignment with what you want, when you say okay, that is your signal that you are not gonna control them, that you really will release them to the good and the bad of whatever their decision is.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. That's good, and that's hard. But that's super helpful.

I like that wisdom with strings attached is controlling. Okay, something else you've talked about in the book that I would love for you to unpack is this concept of If I can't own it, I can't control it. Okay, what does that look like in real life?

Lysa TerKeurst: So if I can't own the problem, like, it's good to have self-control. If the problem is something that I own, that means I can exercise self-control to make whatever part that I'm contributing, I can make it better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst: But if it is a problem someone else is having, then they own that problem. Now, it, it may impact me, and it may cause me emotional suffering, and it may require me to put in boundaries in place because they're gonna want a rescue when things go poorly. But ultimately, if they are making the decision, they own the problem.

So therefore, they are the only ones that can control the choices from here. And that is a tough pill to swallow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst: And here's where our care and compassion for people get taken too far. We see a problem, we want to help, we take our help too far, so we want to rescue, then we wanna fix the problem, and then eventually what happens is we become part of the problem.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst: And so that's where we have to be really careful. Our controlling tendencies, the most we'll ever accomplish is temporary behavior modification, but we will not be able to fix them. We will not be able to save them.

We will not be able to shift a circumstance beyond our control. And the more that we try, the more we will lose self-control. We'll get frustrated.

We'll be so anxious that we start to degrade the way that we act, the way that we react. And then when we do that, when we're angry and frustrated and anxious beyond reasonable, then we become part of that problem.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can so see that playing out in relationships. Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. This is super helpful, Lysa.

And what I appreciate is the specificity that you're giving. Like, you know, you even gave the— in the conversation, are you willing to listen to my ideas? Or however you phrased it.

And then after that, it's, Okay. All right. That's so specific.

And I love the specificity. But I do want us to just tell me, is there like a— so those are practical implementations. Is there a spiritual application that we can put to this?

Like, is there a spiritual solution to control issues? Like, what do we do?

Lysa TerKeurst: Absolutely. So one of the stories that I focused on from the Bible in the book, believe it or not, is the story of Judas. And Judas gets a very bad rap, rightfully so, based on some of the actions and attitudes that he put on display.

And I think a lot of people focus in on his possible greed, and I do think that was part of the issue, but I wanna take a look at it from a different angle. When Judas was about to betray Jesus at the Last Supper, Jesus says, one of you's gonna betray me. And the disciples start going around the table saying, not I, Lord, not I, Lord, not I, Lord.

But he gets to Judas, and Judas says, not I, Rabbi. And words frame our reality, so it's really important for us to pay attention to that, and ask ourselves when we are trying to control a situation, which Judas was, when we're trying to control a situation, do we look at Jesus as a rabbi, like as a teacher or a guide, or do we see Jesus as our ultimate Lord and Savior?

And why this is important is because the rest of Judas's story is that he betrays Jesus, for the 30 pieces of silver, because he was trying to force Jesus' hand to give him the outcome that he felt was best.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Lysa TerKeurst: And basically, Jesus wasn't doing what Judas wanted him to do. And what Judas really wanted him to do is rise up, become an earthly king, and free the people from Roman oppression, set them free right now in a physical sense. But Jesus had a different goal in mind.

Jesus was trying to set us free from the slavery of sin. And yes, Roman oppression was something that was terrible at the time. And yes, you know, Jesus had great compassion on the people, but the goal was much bigger than what Judas could even imagine.

So when Judas betrayed Jesus, he was trying to force Jesus's hand, like, okay, well, if you won't rise up against the Romans, I'll put you in a position where they arrest you and they're going to punish you. So surely then—

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Lysa TerKeurst: you will feel prompted to do the outcome that I think is best, and that is rise up and be an earthly king right now and deliver us from this hardship. But it all backfired on Judas. And, you know, eventually, he tried to give the money back when he realized what he had done, and they didn't want to take the money back.

And it was on, you know, Judas, the blood was on Judas's hands, so to speak. And then he wound up, you know, taking his own life. And so it's a very sad story.

It's a very hard story. But where I take a step back from the story and look at myself is, What outcomes am I so attached to? Where are the places that I think God needs a little bit of my help?

Where do I think God has missed it? A good God should surely, you know, have Jesus rise up and be a king and free me from the oppression that I feel right now, as opposed to God having this big plan to set the very souls of the people free for eternity through salvation. And so sometimes in my own situations, I really do I don't know if it's a conscious thought or if it's just kind of this attitude of, you know, I know what a good God should do, so I'm just gonna try to steer the ship to the outcome that I think is right and best right now.

And number one, ultimately, that's not gonna work. But number two, that puts me in a position where I see Jesus not as my Lord and Savior, but as him making suggestions or him having good teachings to help me along the way, like he's a rabbi, but not really my Lord. Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: Lisa, that's so good. Thank you for that, my sister. That's really— that's a beautiful umbrella under which to put all of these ways to just manage.

And I do believe that if someone's listening and God has revealed, wow, you know, this is control stuff that you're dealing with, you thought it was such and such, but it's really control. God reveals that so that He can bring us into freedom. And I know He's going to do that.

This has really been so helpful, and your book is going to be so helpful, as all your other ones are.

Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: But we're gonna get to our last question. And as you know, this is the podcast where thoughtful people come to grow. And so I cannot wait to hear your answer to this question.

Of all that you've experienced in your life, I'd love you just to give us one thing that has really helped you to grow.

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, it's gonna be a very unlikely answer, but honestly, suffering has helped me grow. And, you know, the word suffering, it is, it's such a hard word. And it's not like I wanna raise my hand and up for more suffering at all.

But we all go through times that suffering is going to be part of it. But if we look at scripture, you know, Jesus— even Jesus learned obedience through his suffering. We learned that in Hebrews.

And then as we, you know, look throughout how God uses suffering in our life, like in the book of James, you know, consider it pure joy, my brothers, my sisters, when you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith It does something. Your suffering produces endurance, and endurance must finish its work so that you can be made mature, complete, not lacking anything. And so, I don't like this answer.

I don't wanna give this answer, but it is the most honest answer. What has helped me grow the most are those seasons of suffering.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, there was so much good stuff. That's good stuff here. How about that last thought, right?

Suffering has helped her grow. Oh, suffering is so hard, my friend, but it is that thing that can produce so many good things in our lives. Yep.

It wasn't a fun answer, as she said, but it was a really good answer. So if you find yourself there in a time where it's tough and you're suffering, get ready for the fruit. These seeds of suffering, they can be planted in your life to grow you and to make you blossom.

So go to the show notes, my friend, because there was a lot in this conversation you want to read about and be able to maybe share with somebody. And of course I'll have a way for you to get her book there, but anything you need will be at the show notes. So just always visit the show notes on the platform where you're listening.

And please, would you please leave a review? And by the way, so many of you have left a review and I'm so thankful. And I know several of you have said, where's KC? Is he coming back?

I promise you he's going to pop back in soon. It's just been a busy season around here.

But you're gonna get to hear from KC again soon. So thanks for leaving your reviews. Just keep being a thoughtful person, my friend, and keep growing.

I'll see you next week.