4:13 Podcast: Can I Learn To Trust Again? With Lysa TerKeurst [Episode 346]

Lysa TerKeurst: Sometimes when we're hurt, we start to develop this hyperfocus on all we've lost. And I was there for a long time. And when we hyperfocus on all that we've lost, we start to reduce our life down to the limitations of living hurt, and we narrow the possibilities of our future down so low that we can quietly quit on hope. Like, we just stop hoping for better things and we start having more faith in our fears coming true than in God coming through for us, or that we would ever find people who are genuinely trustworthy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Can you learn to trust again? Well, according to today's guest, best-selling author Lysa TerKeurst, you can move forward, manage your skepticism, and heal from betrayal. Trust is the oxygen of all human relationships, so let's breathe in. And that means we're going to breathe in some practical encouragement. And we're going to breathe out, we're going to breathe out some fear. And we are going to learn the when and the how to trust again.

All right, KC, buckle up. This is about to be good.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends, welcome to The 4:13. I'm Jennifer. And it really is our goal to help you be and do more than you even feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life along with me and KC. It is true, it is through Christ. It is through Christ and Christ alone, through his power in us, that we are the people he's called us to be. So let's do that, our people. It is two friends and one topic and zero stress under the stairs here in the podcast closet. We are really glad you're here.

I got to tell you, though, I'm just a little scattered. Just a little scattered. Couple reasons I'm scattered. One, I'm trying to do intermittent fasting. My brain is, like, rebelling, saying, What the heck are you doing? We need all the nutrients we can get every minute of every day. I just started it. I know it's going to be powerful and meaningful and work. I'm only doing it for seven days. But I'm trying to do this gut cleanse.

KC Wright: You can do all things --

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: -- through Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: I should listen to this podcast. Anyway, I'm scattered because of that.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But the real reason I'm scattered, KC?

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Got a wedding coming up. Okay. So if I have not announced this to you, our 4:13 family, our youngest son, Connor, is getting married on May 30th, so I am doing wedding stuff.

KC Wright: Ooooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: He is marrying Chloe Watkins. Chloe is a sergeant. Or was. She's not in the military anymore. But she was a sergeant in the Army. All hail.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well done, Chloe.

KC Wright: He needs to salute her.

Jennifer Rothschild: We all need to salute her. I'm so glad she's joining our family. So excited.

They met, by the way -- I don't remember what I've told our people, so I'm just going to say it again, because you don't remember. If I don't remember, you don't remember. They met in the gym. Okay, this is the sweetest little story. So they're both super built. I mean, like, really, really built. Like, Connor has muscles on his earlobes, he's so built. And like I said, please forgive if I mess up my words. I'm operating only on a protein shake.

Okay. Anyway, so Chloe, who knows everything about working out also, she's totally fine. She sees this cute boy over there. And she's been watching him for a while, and so finally she goes over, "Hey, I'm feeling a little back pain. I'm not sure if I'm" -- what did she say? Benching or squatting. Doing something correctly. "Could you help me with my form?" Yeah. And now there's a ring on her finger. And I'm so glad, Sergeant Watkins.

So anyway, we are getting ready for this wedding and doing all the fun things, and I am just so excited and so grateful and so thankful.

KC Wright: You're about to have a daughter-in-love.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm about to have a daughter. And her name starts with C, so we've got Clayton and Caroline, Connor and Chloe. So there you go, KC.

KC Wright: There you go, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: We got all the C words.

So anyway, we're going to talk with Lysa today. Lysa and I have been friends for many years. And I've been a part of her story, been able to have a front row seat in her story of love and betrayal and losing that love and building back and finding love again and trusting again. It's a beautiful difficult story. Like Margaret Feinberg once said, it is brutiful, brutal and beautiful.

So I think you're going to enjoy this conversation today with our friend Lysa TerKeurst, who doesn't need an introduction. But for those of you who just landed here on Planet Earth, or maybe those of you who are trying to intermittent fast and you can't think or remember anything either, let's reintroduce Lysa.

KC Wright: Lysa TerKeurst is President of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of seven New York Times best sellers, including "Good Boundaries and Goodbyes." She enjoys life with her husband, Chaz, and her kids and her grandbabies. This is going to be so good. There's room at the table for you. Pull up a chair. Here's Jennifer and Lysa.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Lysa. I told you before we went on mic that I love to talk to you. I wish we had more time off of a mic. But we're just going to use this mic as an opportunity to catch up and talk about stuff, including what's going on in your life and your latest book, and everybody else gets to listen in. Deal?

Lysa TerKeurst: That sounds great. Also, can I just put this out there, that I would really love to take a trip with Jennifer Rothschild over the pond to see C.S. Lewis somewhere. I'm just going to put that out there. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know what? That just might be of the Lord. And here's why. Because do you know in my secret bucket list -- if we got to talk more often, you would know this. My secret bucket list is that I take a group of women with me to Oxford, and maybe even to Belfast, and do all things C.S. Lewis: his boyhood, his teaching, his adulthood, his conversion, the whole deal. So you're in? We've got one. So 4:13ers, tell us in the reviews if you want to sign up for the trip, because now we're doing it. That's awesome, Lysa. That's awesome.

Lysa TerKeurst: That is so funny. We did not talk about this in advance at all. So this is not a trick. It was just genuine. I know you love dead authors, and I do too, and so there we have it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And I do have the biggest crush on C.S. Lewis, so thank you. And, Lysa, it would be so fun. Okay. Well, I'm going to remember this day that you said that out loud, when it's been a secret in my heart. So thank you, Lord.

All right. Well, then good. So you dealt with one of my issues. I'm going to go to one of your issues. Okay? And I heard that you've had an issue with the phrase "trust issues." All right? So I want to know why you've had an issue with that phrase "trust issues" in your past.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. Well, there's two issues that I actually have with the phraseology "trust issues." One is I think we can so easily use it as this diagnosis we put on ourselves. Like, "Well, it's just how I'm wired, I have trust issues." And when we do that and we're so accepting of the fact that we either have had our heart broken or we are skeptical for another reason, I think we can really reduce our life down to the limitations of living hurt. And I don't want us to do that. I think we should acknowledge if we have issues with trust, but also see it as something to work on, not as a permanent condition.

The second issue that I have with the phrase "trust issues" is that other people have put this on me, or on other people before, as if it's just sort of this bad smell and it's just part of the DNA of who I am or the part of a DNA of someone who's struggling with trust. And I just want to say, like, can we just not weaponize the phrase "trust issues"? Can we just simply say of course we all struggle with trust. Statistics show that in America, the average American lies or is deceitful on average four times a day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

Lysa TerKeurst: Now, throw in that plus the political climate, plus all of the difficulties that people are having in relationships in general, and fake news and conspiracy theories, it's no wonder that so many of us are walking around wondering, who can we really trust?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, that's so good. Because you just took it from the me and my issues to, like, everybody's got this. And I agree with you, let's not call it trust issues. Let's call it awareness opportunities and growth opportunities, because that's what it is. In fact, in a minute I want to ask you about how we can know the difference between blind trust and wise trust. Okay? But hold that thought. Because this really means I need to get to the point of trust. Okay, so -- like, I know you're a smart girl, and I know that you could write an entire book on trust based on just research, but I don't think that's where you're coming from. So for those who may not yet really know a lot of your story and your deal, give us an idea of why, why you wrote a book on trust. Like, what's your deal? What has happened in your life that's made it an issue, a thing?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, if you've been following my story at all, you know that I went through ten years of just really shocking things happening with my marriage, and it ended in the death of my marriage. And that was probably one of the most disillusioning things I have ever walked through, and so much hurt, so much pain, and suddenly my life took this turn that I never expected.

And so out of that, I discovered that I had been working harder on another person than they were willing to work on ourselves. And then the divorce came, and then it was time for me to work on me. And what happened wasn't my fault, but now the resulting aftermath of the trauma was a problem that I needed to deal with.

And so when I started examining this topic of trust, I was like, nope, I am not touching that one with a ten-foot pole. And mostly because I had trust issues and I didn't know what to know about them. I had never studied it in the Bible. I had a lot of misunderstandings, a lot of misconceptions. I kind of felt like unconditional trust was this Christian thing, when in reality love can be unconditional, but trust never should be. And sometimes distrust is the wisest choice we make. But I'd never been taught that. And so I had a lot of misunderstandings around trust, so I decided to work on myself. And in the process, I got together with other women and just listened. Like, do you struggle with trust? And what do you do about it? How do you repair trust? What is the definition of trust? And furthermore, is it really possible to heal when you've had your trust shattered?

And so I didn't start out writing this book; I started out listening and learning, and from that I decided to tackle it. But not from someone who has mastered this, but from someone who's on the journey with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well -- and I've watched you on this journey. And I love too, Lysa, that you're saying you're not -- you haven't mastered it. And I think all of us need to right now say that this is going to be a conversation we're having, which reveals the process and the problem, and that there is hope. But that doesn't mean that at the end of this conversation we're going to have it all solved. It means we're going to be closer on the path of trust.

And you mentioned a definition of trust. So in your book you give a formula for trust that describes it: connection plus safety equals trust. Okay? Connection plus safety equals trust. So explain why that is how you explain trust.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. So when we are attempting to be in a relationship -- all relationships require connection. And those connections can sometimes be risky. You know when you're going to step in and open up your heart to someone else, there is a certain amount of risk involved. So the goal isn't to try to find relationships that have zero risk, because if they have zero risk, they have zero connection. The goal is to find connections that are safe. And when I say safe, I mean that you can count on this person to be who they say they are, do what they say they're going to do, and to tell you the truth. And so that creates a sense of safety where the connection and the relationship is something that feels good to both people involved, and both people involved are seeking each other's highest good.

Now, what can happen when trust is broken, we have to take an examination, when that trust is broken, as to what we're really dealing with. We all make mistakes, so at times we're all going to let other people down, we're all going to break trust with other people. But here's a crucial question to ask: Is this a mistake? And if so, then, hey, this is a difficulty we need to work on. But if this broken trust is a repeated pattern of behavior -- that's a big difference between that and a mistake. If it's a repeated pattern of behavior where the other person is unwilling or incapable of walking through the process to repair that trust, to own what they did, to acknowledge how much they hurt you, if this is a repeated pattern of behavior that is no longer just a difficulty, but it starts to become destructive to your well-being, well, then that's something where the safety in the relationship has been diminished; therefore, the connection in the relationship should also be diminished.

Where we can get out of whack, Jennifer, is when we are so desperate for that connection to stay intact, that instead of requiring the other person to be more safe, more honest, more trustworthy, we elevate the priority of connection so high and we diminish our own need for safety. That's where dysfunction really starts to take over.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So here's, then, a question. You know, because you did work hard and you biblically sought to have the kind of marital connection that you longed for, why did you stay as long as you did? Like, how did you know it was okay, that that formula had been broken to the extent that there was no longer an ability to have a connection?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. It's a complicated question, but such a good one, Jennifer. I was desperate to keep my marriage. I just was. I did not want to be a divorced woman. And I thought as a Christian, that we must give unconditional trust. And, look, I understand the sentiment of this. Like, I truly wish all relationships were absolutely safe and honest and in keeping with the way that the Bible teaches us to treat one another. I really wish that other people wouldn't make decisions that break our trust, but we all know that that's not possible on this side of eternity.

And so in my situation, I had to start making a shift. Instead of shooting for unconditional trust where I was blind to red flags and, honestly, just kind of expected to overlook them, I needed to shift from that blind trust to wise trust. Wise trust, it requires us to take an honest look at reality. And reality was a really hard thing for me to acknowledge, and that's why it took so long. I didn't want certain things that were happening, I didn't want them to be real, and so I was constantly trying to navigate around them and fix them. But in the end, I was working harder on this other person than they were willing to work on themselves.

And so the other hardship was that this other person would say things that I wanted them to say, which gave me this hope -- just enough little bit of hope to hang on. Like, okay, just a little bit longer, just a little bit longer, and things were going to get better. But I had to recognize that people can sometimes lie with their words, but the truth eventually emerges in their actions. So I was not being wise by constantly overriding my need for safety just to keep the connection with this person going. I had to admit what was real and what was not real.

And my counselor gave me this statement, which I've thought over, mulled over, and said it so many times: Mental health is a commitment to reality at all cost. And at some point, the cost became so great to me to continue to deny reality that I had to pay the cost of acknowledging the death of that marriage. I didn't walk away from my marriage, but I did accept the reality that it was no longer viable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Such a good explanation. And I thank you, Lysa, for your generosity too in sharing that with us, because I know that's personal stuff. But I also think your willingness to share it honestly, it does help a lot of people who are just kind of stuck in -- with all the right motives, trying to do what they think is the right thing, and it's turning out wrong. So even giving us that good picture of the difference between blind trust and wise trust is super helpful.

But I was thinking as you were describing that too, when our trust is broken, I think -- at least I do this. I will try to replace trust with control. Like, okay, I'm just going to control the situation and the person. So I figure you might have done that. If so, or even if not, theoretically why do you think that's a thing?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, of course it's a thing. Because whatever our motivation is, we want that. So my highest motivation is peace, and so -- I'm not naturally a controlling person. But when things start to feel out of control, it's only natural for me to do whatever I can possibly do to try to bring peace back to my life. Other people, their motivation might be purely control and, like, they want to make sure that other people are doing what they think they should do. You know, we have different motivations. I don't know what your motivation would be, but we all have the motivations to get back to a sense where we're not afraid. Our brains are wired for the confidence of knowing, so our brains are constantly scanning what's in front of us and trying to make the determination if we're safe or not.

The problem is that we don't have all the information, so we're constantly filling in the gaps as well. And sometimes I think we feel like if we control, we can fill in the gaps to make things a little safer than what they actually are. That sounds like a great solution until we recognize we cannot control what another person thinks, we cannot control what another person does, we cannot control how another person acts or reacts. All we can do is control ourselves. So the secret -- when what we don't trust we try to control, the secret isn't to try to control other people, the secret is to exercise self-control and only allow the person who feels out of control -- only allow them as much access as the safety they're willing to bring to the table.

You know, I think as Christians we have bought into this notion that we just need to take it and take it and take it and take it when somebody is doing things that are hurtful to us. And I think there's noble reasons for that. But I want us to all remember, Jesus did exemplify and model to us and he did this for us. He laid down his life for his friends, and he taught us to do the same. But when Jesus laid down his life, it was to accomplish a high and holy purpose; it was not to enable bad behavior to continue. I think we need to remember that and I think we need to pay attention when these trust issues come up. Often they present themselves as red flags, but red flags, they don't take care of themselves on their own and will eventually turn into roots of distrust.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, red flags, let's go there. Because in your book, you do give these relationship red flags. So we've already heard some of them throughout this conversation, but give us some real clear, like -- to the person who's listening, what are some relationship red flags?

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. There's 11 of them. We're not going to go through all 11. That would take too much time. But let me list some of these just so it can get you thinking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: Incongruity. Okay, incongruity is when who the other person says they are isn't in line with what they actually do. Okay? And you can already feel the tension of the trust issues that can occur with incongruity.

Inconsistency. It's like inconsistency is sometimes they're kind, sometimes they're not. Sometimes they remember to do what they promise, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they act like they love you, sometimes they seem cold and indifferent. Look, we all have bad days. But this is more of that pattern of duality that confuses you and you never quite know what you're going to get. So that's inconsistency.

Insincerity. You know, we've all encountered situations where you get an uneasy feeling when someone compliments you because you are not really sure that they're being sincere. It's like you tilt your head after interacting with them and you think to yourself, did they really mean that or did they just try to put on some show to make themselves appear nice?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, why did they say that? Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: And then self-centeredness. This is when the other person just really doesn't think or they don't care how their words and actions impact other people or their feelings.

Insecurity. This person has this anxiety -- have you ever been around someone -- they have an anxiety inside of them that they're expecting you to fix. And the problem is you can't fix what's really a struggle inside of them. So how this plays out is sometimes this person can be really jealous, even when there's not a legitimate reason to be jealous. They need incessant encouragement to feel more stable in the relationship. And they're always afraid that you are going to either walk away from them or, even when it's not justified, they question your loyalty and commitment to them constantly. So that's insecurity.

And then, of course, a big one is immaturity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: And I don't need to define that one. You know what that one is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. You know what I call that? Can I just say what I call that when it's in a man?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nothing personal, guys. But it is a thing. A grown-up baby man, that's what I call it.

Lysa TerKeurst: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And there can be grown-up baby women too. But that's what that is to me, that immaturity. And we know what that is even if we can't necessarily name it.

Okay, keep going. I like this. This is helpful.

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay, immorality. Now, this is a really, really, really big one. I would say this one can cause more hurt and more damage in a relationship than -- I mean, all of these are hurtful, but this one's super hurtful, because this is someone that just has a disregard for the principles of right and wrong. They just do not see a problem with engaging in sinful, mean, insulting, possibly even illegal behaviors. They can appear upstanding while actively participating in a secret double life. And so I don't have to define why that would be a major red flag and why, of course, if you're in a situation with someone like that, that trust issues would emerge.

And then -- you know, like I said, there's 11 of them. I'll only cover one more. And that's incompetence. And this really comes out in a work environment when someone says that they're very capable of doing something that you already know they don't have the training. Maybe they don't have the experience. They don't have the track record to be able to carry this task out, and they will not acknowledge their inability to do something until it becomes a problem too big to deny. And so you can see how incompetence, while it's not on the same level as immorality, it still creates trust issues because you are not convinced that you can turn something over to this person and they'll actually do it the right way.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so interesting. And, Lysa, as you describe all of them, it's so interesting, it's like they've all got the same mama. It's like it's all just -- I can see where the insecurity and the self-centeredness, where they all just -- everything flows from the same source of just basically a lack of self-awareness and maybe an elevation of self above anyone else.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. It's almost like the opposite of the Fruits of the Spirit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes.

Lysa TerKeurst: And it kind of gets at -- although they're not worded exactly the same, but the vices of the flesh, you know, where it's about us. It's about our pride, it's about what we want, when we want it, how we want it, and to the cost or possibly the detriment of other people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And putting it that simply kind of clarifies it even more. It turns all the gray into black and white.

You talk about something in your book, too, that was a phrase I want you to unpack for us. You call them rebellious acts of resilience. What is a rebellious act of resilience?

Lysa TerKeurst: Okay. So this comes toward the end of the book. And I love this question because it's one of my favorite parts. So spoiler alert, there's more in the book than what I'm going to give you, but this is -- this is one of my favorite parts of the whole message. Sometimes when we're hurt, we start to develop this hyperfocus on all we've lost. And I was there for a long time. And when we hyperfocus on all that we've lost, we start to reduce our life down to the limitations of living hurt, and we narrow the possibilities of our future down so low that we can quietly quit on hope. Like, we just stop hoping for better things and we start having more faith in our fears coming true than in God coming through for us, or that we would ever find people who are genuinely trustworthy.

So I decided I wanted to rebel against living my life in such a reduced manner. I did not want to reduce my life down to the limitations of living hurt, and so I challenged myself to start listening for the "I Can'ts" and "I Don'ts." Sometimes an "I Can't" is true; I legitimately can't. But sometimes I say I can't when I really could, and sometimes I say I don't when I really should. And if we don't tend well to our "can'ts" and "don'ts," they will turn into "I Won'ts." I won't get better, I won't move forward, I won't learn new things, I won't look for -- instead of all that I've lost, I won't look for what I could possibly gain. And so I wanted to rebel against this.

And it all happened -- this awareness came to me. One day I was at the beach with a couple of friends. And two things significant happened that day. One, the ice maker broke. Now, Jennifer, when I go to the beach, I need ice. I don't mean to sound like a prima donna or anything like that, but I like my cold things to be very cold. And I don't want my sandwich to spoil, I want my water bottle to be cold, I want my fruit to be chilled. So, okay, I'm not trying to be, like, overly demanding, but simply I need ice. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Lysa TerKeurst: And so I went to get ice out of the ice maker to put it in my cooler, and the ice maker was broken. And I had a very out-of-proportion reaction to this situation. I literally had my fist up in the air, and I was saying, "Oh, my gosh, if he would have never cheated on me, then we wouldn't be divorced. And if we weren't divorced, he would be here. And he knows how to fix the ice maker, and then I would have ice, but because he did all of that, now I can't have ice because I can't fix the ice maker."

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm not laughing at you. I get you. Wow. But I get you. That's so -- wow. Okay.

Lysa TerKeurst: I give you permission to laugh at me, because I was being very immature. I admit this.

But I stopped myself and I just said, okay, you can't fix the ice maker. But what if I could? And so I googled directions. I'm terrible at written instructions. It was a disaster. That was not going to work. And then I You-Tubed a video. And as God is my witness, Jennifer, I fixed the ice maker.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Okay, I'm so impressed.

Lysa TerKeurst: I did a victory dance around the kitchen. And it wasn't about the ice. It was about the fact that I had gained something in that moment and my life wasn't just a series of losses. I gained the confidence that sometimes I can. And it was a really profound moment for me. Yeah, I was excited about the ice; but I was more excited about the fact that sometimes when we don't feel brave, we just need to do brave. And when we do brave, suddenly one day we'll wake up and we'll become brave. So that was the first thing that happened at the beach.

The second thing is my friend -- I was with two friends. One of my friends had the same definition of what it means go to the beach. That means we take a chair, a good book, our little cooler with our sandwich and our fruit and our ice water, and we go sit and watch the waves and read our book and have a chill day. Okay. That was what me and one of my friends decided. That was our definition of going to the beach.

Our other friend had a different definition. Her definition of going to the beach was that she was going to take boogie boards down there and play in the ocean. And so she was so excited, she was like, "Okay, I've got everybody a boogie board." And I'm like, "Oh, I do not do oceans." I mean, there are sharks that eat people, there are jellyfish that sting people, there are shells that can cut my foot. I don't do oceans. So I fully expected her to be okay with that. Respect my boundary, right? No, that is not what happened. We went down to the beach, and as we're walking down there I noticed she wasn't just carrying one boogie board, she was carrying three boogie boards.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my.

Lysa TerKeurst: And I was like, Oh, she is not going to trick me. So we get down and I sit in my chair, I start to read my book. And without saying a word, she just comes and lays a boogie board down in front of me and in front of my other friend. And then I watched her. She grabbed her boogie board and went and jumped in the ocean, and she was having a grand old time. And I rolled my eyes and said again, "I don't do oceans." And then I stopped myself and I said, "But what if I did?" And before I could overthink the situation, I grabbed the boogie board, I went and I jumped in the ocean. A wave took me under, my bathing suit bottoms came off. It was a whole thing, right? I pulled my bathing suit bottoms back up, though, and I stayed. I stayed in that ocean and I played and I laughed, and for one whole hour that day I had no problems. I had nothing but sheer joy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Wow, I love it.

Lysa TerKeurst: I tell that story just to make us more aware. Like, we cannot -- just because we've been hurt doesn't mean we need to live hurt, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: And what if we started paying attention to the "Can'ts" and "Don'ts" before they turned into "I Won'ts"? And what if we just challenge ourself, what if we could and what if we did?

Now, how does this relate to trust? Oh, it has everything to do with trust. Because trust can only be repaired in the context of relationships. Now, it doesn't have to be the relationship that originally broke your trust. But when trust has been broken, we have to be willing to not isolate, which is going to be what we're tempted to do, but to step into another relationship where we find safety and connection and time. Trust is built time plus believable behavior. And when you're in a relationship with someone and there's time that passes and a string of believable behavior, that makes a new track record and the new possibility that trust is possible. So broken trust, it can be life altering, but it shouldn't be life ruining.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Amen. And the description of the "I Won't" is so helpful. There's some of us that are settling for "I Won't." And, oh, my friends, we are too valuable to settle for "I Won't."

And, you know, I'm thinking of some people, Lysa, who are listening right now, and they're resonating -- maybe it's not because of a one-on-one relationship, like a marriage or a friend or an adult child or whatever, but maybe the hurt and the broken trust is because of a group situation, like a church or a ministry, or maybe even a work environment. You know, a group that we trust to be there to help us and be for our good, yet now we can't trust because maybe they have hurt us. So how does someone move forward in that kind of situation?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, first of all I want to say I really understand it. I didn't go through church hurt, but I certainly experienced an organization that should have helped me, that hurt me, and it was really devastating. When I went through my divorce, there was a ministry that -- I loved this ministry for years and years, and the woman that ran it was just amazing. And then when I went through my divorce, I don't know what happened. I don't know if there was a group of people that encouraged her that this was a good decision, but she decided to run a conference promotion for a conference that she was doing, and the tagline for the marketing was, "Don't let what happened to Lysa TerKeurst's marriage happen to you."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.

Lysa TerKeurst: And it hurt so bad. Thankfully, her legal department caught wind of it before it aired and they pulled it down. But the damage had been done in my heart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: And so I don't know what organizational hurt or church hurt you're walking through, but I do just want to speak straight to your heart. What they did, it shouldn't have happened. And what they said to you or possibly even about you should have never been said. And I know it's so hurtful, because chances are you gave to that organization, you invested in the organization, and all that you poured your heart into should have warranted more care and more concern being extended to you. They should absolutely have not broken your heart and they should not have broken your trust.

You know, I always want to just fully acknowledge that, because I don't want to gloss over this, minimize it, or, you know, make it seem like you should get over it more quickly, because sometimes leaders should have led better and bosses should have cared for you better. And certainly fellow Christians should have been honest, they should have been fair, they should have been kind. They should have been more loving to you. And I think it's so crucial. So just to say that. And so with everything in me, I -- if you never get an apology from them, I want to say to you, I am so sorry. I'm so sorry for what they did to you and what happened.

And again, I'm not implying we should sweep any of this under the rug, but I do want to just put something out there that I think is really important for us to really consider. When they hurt you, they did something that they shouldn't have done. But what you do from here is fully your determination. Like, you didn't get to have any control over what they did that hurt you, but you do have control over what you do with it as we move forward. And if we hitch our ability to find peace to choices that the other people may never ever make, we're in essence saying that they get to control how we live from now on. And so if we say, okay, that group of Christians hurt me so I'm never going to trust Christians again, I'm never going to go to church again, I'm done with the whole Christian thing, like, that's giving them some kind of power over you that they do not deserve.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Lysa TerKeurst: And I feel like enough has been taken from us. And so, you know, I'm not saying we just need to move on really, really quickly, but what I am saying is you deserve to stop suffering from this situation. And the best thing that you can do is realize sometimes when we want to read the Bible the least is when we need to read it the most. Sometimes when we want to go to church the least is when we need to go and gather in corporate worship the most. And so just because that church hurt you doesn't mean that all churches are bad. Just because some Christians let you down doesn't mean that all Christians have bad intentions.

And so I just want us to say to ourselves, like, God will take care of what they did. They're not ultimately going to get away with it. That God will not be mocked. You don't have to put some stand against going to church or against being involved with Christians in hopes of punishing that other person, because God will take care of that. And God will take care of it. But you don't want to just continue to allow them and their choices to punish you.

And when I wrote about this in this chapter, at the very end of the chapter I talked about how I walked into church and -- after a season of just taking time off from church because I just needed that time and I was disillusioned and I was hurt. But I walked back into church, and I stood there and I let the corporate worship wash over me. Most of the time I'm the girl that's like, okay, okay, we sang three songs, now get on with the message. I'm not proud of that, I'm just saying. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: But that day, I didn't want the worship to end. That day, I just stood there with tears streaming down my face, and I thought, they took enough from me, they're not going to take this too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Amen. You know, Lysa, as I hear all this, I'm just so reminded that when we are in Christ, there's really no way we can manage our trust that has been broken between us and other humans without trusting God completely, knowing that we're safe with him, that that connection and safety is there with God ultimately, which gives us the ability then to trust him with just the difference between wise trust and not assigning blind trust, so we don't just keep stepping into situations where we can be injured, we -- give us that phrase one more time that your counselor said mental health is.

Lysa TerKeurst: A commitment to reality at all costs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Reality at all costs. And that means you call something -- when it's wrong, you call it wrong. When you're wrong, you call yourself -- you know, I need to learn and grow from this. So, yeah, let's be those people. And gosh, Lysa, wouldn't that just change all the trust issues that may occur in the church if we're all walking with the Lord like that? I mean, I want to be that person.

Okay. We got to get to our last question, though, girl. I could talk to you all day. I know we could all listen. So I'm glad you've written the book. All right. You have said a couple of times in this conversation, just because I've been hurt doesn't mean I have to live hurt. Okay? That is a very profound statement that we all can relate to, because we've all been hurt. But we don't have to live hurt. And you've given us two or three real markers here on how we do that. But just because I know people sometimes are just -- we get emotional as we're listening to all this. I would love it if you'd just be super clear as we end, very practical, how does someone who has been hurt now, from this point on, begin to not live hurt?

Lysa TerKeurst: I think that is the ultimate question, honestly, and that's why I've been on this journey of healing myself. Look, when we start to reduce our life down to the limitations of living hurt, we start to get a very narrow view of God and we can sometimes wonder, how can I continue to trust God when I don't understand what he allows? I think this is a very fair question, I think it's something worth wrestling through.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

Lysa TerKeurst: In the Bible there's -- the biblical word for trust or trustworthiness is batah, b-a-t-a-h. And it's interesting, Jennifer, when that word is directed toward God, it's always in a positive sense. When that word is directed toward people, it's almost always in a negative sense. Now, I don't say that to discourage us. The reason that I'm saying that is ultimately we're not going to solve trust issues. We're not going to come up with a formula where if we do this, this, if we look out for these red flags and we examine these roots of distrust, and if this person exemplifies all these qualities, then we reduce the risk of that relationship down to zero. No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Lysa TerKeurst: Because ultimately we can't place our ultimate trust in people. If we could place our ultimate trust in people, then we would have no need for God.

So trust has to flow from a stability that God gives us, recognizing that people are going to disappoint us. People are going to at times hurt us. People are going to let us down. But the rise and fall of our own sanity, stability, and ultimately security, it can't be that we find people who are perfect. It's that we have so gotten to the place in our relationship with God, where we do trust him even when we don't understand him, that we become utterly convinced in the goodness of God and that's where we anchor the hope of our life, so that when storms come in relationships and with other people -- and they will come -- that we won't be destroyed by them.

But we can weather them with truth, with integrity, and with a desire that sometimes restoration will be possible for that relationship, and sometimes it won't. But either way, we'll survive this. We really will. And not only will we survive, but we'll thrive in the midst of life, and instead of always focusing on what other people need to give us, we will become a conduit of God's peace, that when we step into any situation, any relationship, that we have a different kind of peace, we have a different kind of stability because of our rich connection with God.

I would love to end with this question. What would be different about your life if you were absolutely convinced of the goodness of God? What would be different? And if I'm forced to answer that question today, I would say a lot would be different. Because sometimes I try to judge the goodness of God based on the goodness of circumstances or the goodness of people or God's definition of being good to be the same as mine. God is always good. But sometimes his definition of good is going to be different than mine, but different doesn't mean bad.

And so, Jennifer, this is my lifelong pursuit, that I want to day by day become more and more and more convinced and live from the place where I am absolutely certain in the goodness of God. And if we're in that place, then we know. We have a stability based on our trust in God that won't be shaken and it won't be destroyed.

KC Wright: Her last question, what would be different if you were convinced of the goodness of God, everything in your life can be different if you truly believe that God is good and has your good in mind and works -- wait for it -- all things together for good. So taste and see that he is good. Trust him with all you don't understand. He is with you and for you, and he can restore the years the locusts have eaten.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, preach, preach, preach.

I was thinking, KC, she did say there is no formula. Which I really appreciated that. That trust must flow from the stability that God gives us. Because people will mess up, of course. But the rise and fall of our stability is not finding perfect people, but it's entrusting our perfect God. Okay, our people, so, therefore, no more "I Won'ts." We can trust God completely, and we can learn to apply wise trust to all of our relationships.

KC Wright: I need her book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you do.

KC Wright: And so do you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And so do I.

KC Wright: You can win one right now on Jennifer's Instagram, or go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/346 to enter to win.

And this is one transcript, my friend, that you need to review for sure. Lysa drops so many truth bombs you need to read and think about. We will have all the links on the Show Notes to past episodes on forgiveness and trust with our girl Lysa and other 4:13 guests, so go there to just immerse yourself in encouragement. Don't we need it.

Again, until next week -- oh, just one more thing. One more thing. Sign me up, Jennifer, for your C.S. Lewis Oxford tour. I want to go. I will carry your bags, I will carry Lysa's bags. Heck, I'll do whatever it takes to get on this trip. But I know you will bring me back something, because you always do. And I have my shelf in my office with all my C.S. Lewis things from J.R.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Yes, you're right, if I ever do, our 4:13ers, a C.S. Lewis Oxford trip, yes, we want you all to come. But I don't guarantee that KC will carry everyone's bags.

But, hey, seriously, as we're saying that out loud -- you know, Lysa just kind of surprised me with that. But as we're saying that out loud, if that is something you would ever be interested in, if you've not left a review, jot that down in your review, because we always need the reviews and that's a really good way to communicate. Or you could just email me at jenniferothschild.com. Go there and you'll see a place to contact me. I'd love to know. And we'll save your emails. Wouldn't that be fun?

KC Wright: Wouldn't that be something?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that would be something.

KC Wright: Epic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, our people, this one is a wrap, because I get to eat in about 30 minutes, so I'm about to leave you.

And just remember, our people, whatever you're facing, you can trust again, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think I'm going to have peanut butter and jelly, KC. That's all I'm having, peanut butter and jelly.

KC Wright: Peanut butter, jelly time. Peanut butter, jelly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay.