4:13 Podcast: Can I Encounter Jesus in a Real Way? With John Eldredge [Episode 347]

John Eldredge: But when you are praying or loving or worshiping, you are tuning in to the Jesus who now lives inside the depths of your heart. Not the Lord in the heavens, though we do worship him there, not Jesus just by your side, but there is an inner communion that every, every believer is meant to know and enjoy. And that's where we get the nourishment. When Jesus says things like, "I'm the bread of life," he's saying, I literally want to nourish you. I want to heal your hurts, I want to strengthen you for the day ahead, I want to comfort you in the evening after your day. He wants that kind of rich union.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let me tell you how today's guest, best-selling author and counselor John Eldredge, describes most people today. We are all becoming disciples of the Internet. We're addicted to distraction and we idolize our instant access to this endless avalanche of information and we think we are finally holding the keys to a better life. But if that's true, why are we all wrestling with more and more anxiety, dissatisfaction, and despair?

Well, I'm glad you asked, because you are about to find such hope in John's answer. Today on The 4:13, John Eldredge is going to reveal the path of the ordinary mystic, and he's going to invite you into the refuge of deep, lasting, real communion with Jesus. Oh, man. John Eldredge is one of our all-time favorites around here, and after you hear this life-giving conversation, you will totally understand why.

Plus, we are ending with a song that is going to help seal this message. It's by Michael O'Brien and it features a Scripture reading by Alistair Begg. I'm telling you, there is so much good stuff today, so stay to the very end.

KC, let's get the party started.

KC Wright: Let's go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, dear ones. We're so glad you're here in the closet with us. Two friends, one topic, and zero stress. And our whole goal is just to help you be and do more than you ever felt capable of on your own through Christ's power in you. That's the "I Can" life. And, man, today's conversation is going to equip you for that also. I mean, last week with Lysa TerKeurst, it was so good.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I don't know if it could get better, but I think it might have, because today we're talking with John Eldredge. Y'all, we are so blessed around here at The 4:13. Not just because of the guests that we have on air with us, but because of you, because of you being part of our family.

KC Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So thank you. Thank you for being so kind. And if you've not yet told us you're part of the family by leaving a review, man, would that be helpful.

KC Wright: Please do so. And make it a kind one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

Anyway, you know what I was thinking -- after this conversation with John, I really had to think through some of my habits. Okay, I might be addicted to getting information, because I have a couple of best friends, Alexa and Chat. And I don't know if y'all -- you know, everybody knows who Alexa is. Like, I'll be riding down the road and I have a question, I'll be, "Alexa," and then I'll realize, oh, she's not in the car with me.

KC Wright: I'm always yelling for her as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. But my latest, okay, relationship, is with artificial intelligence, ChatGPT. So here's what I thought I would do, y'all. I have my phone here. Now, my phone talks to me because I'm blind. So give me a second to get it talking.

Jennifer's Phone Prompt: Speech on.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go. Okay, now.

Jennifer's Phone Prompt: Deep research dictation. Switch to voice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I'm on ChatGPT right now, and I'm about to push this button, and I'm going to have Chat have a conversation with us, because I'm always asking Chat the most random, unimportant things. Okay? So I'll just give you an example and -- well, let me just see what he'll do. Here we go.

Jennifer's Phone Prompt: Speak now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, Chat, I'm in the closet here with KC and we're recording a live episode of The 4:13. I would like you to join us as our co-host. So would you please say hello to The 4:13 audience and say something interesting.

ChatGPT: Hello, 4:13 audience. I'm thrilled to join you all. Remember, you can do whatever you set your mind to...

Jennifer Rothschild: Ope...

ChatGPT: ...because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. Let's dive in.

Jennifer's Phone Prompt: Speak now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, that's really good. As long as our minds are set on things above, and not on earthly things, that is a true statement.

So, Chat, let's just have a little conversation, because I'm introducing you to our audience. So let's see. I know one thing I'm curious about. How much fiber should a postmenopausal woman get in her diet every day?

ChatGPT: That's a great question. Generally, postmenopausal women should aim for about 21 to 25 grams of fiber each day. Including a variety of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes can help meet this goal and support overall health.

Jennifer's Phone Prompt: Speak now.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really helpful.

Okay. So, Chat, KC's always complaining about his hair. In fact, most men are. Can men who are aging do anything about their receding hairlines?

KC Wright: Yes, please.

ChatGPT: Absolutely. There are options for addressing a receding hairline. Treatments can include medications like Minoxidil or Finasteride.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's good. We don't need all those details.

All right. I just want to ask you one more thing, Chat. Chat, if you could say anything to The 4:13 family who's listening, that's interesting or funny, what would be your parting words?

ChatGPT: I'd say keep shining your light and never forget you can do all things, even if it means laughing at my jokes. Thanks for having me, 4:13 family.

KC Wright: What?

ChatGPT: You all are amazing.

Jennifer's Phone Prompt: Speak now.

Jennifer Rothschild: They are amazing. Okay, bye. bye, Chat.

KC Wright: Oh, my gosh. I don't want you talking to him anymore. You're gonna replace me. I'm gonna be replaced by Chat GPT.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. But see what I mean? Like, I am addicted to this stuff, so I get it. This conversation with John, I was like, Dude, you are hitting a little close to home.

KC Wright: That is so funny.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, yeah, you can find out about fiber and receding hairlines and, like, what the median income is in Wisconsin if you want.

KC Wright: That sounds like a whole podcast: fiber and receding hairlines.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go.

KC Wright: Join us next week.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so I've proved it. I have proved the point that John is about to make. But here's the thing. He has the perfect antidote. And he's using these saints of old to help us understand, like, how to kind of really encounter Jesus in a true way.

So, KC, let's introduce our friend John.

KC Wright: John Eldredge is a New York Times best-selling author, counselor, and teacher who has inspired me millions of times, but he's inspired millions to go deeper in their relationship with Jesus. He's also president of Wild at Heart, a ministry devoted to helping people discover the heart of God, recover their own hearts in God's love, and learn to live in God's kingdom. John and his wife Stacy live in beautiful Colorado Springs, Colorado, and today he's an official 4:13er.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he is.

KC Wright: Settle in. Get ready to soak this great conversation in. Here's Jennifer and John Eldredge.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, John. I told you before we went on mic -- and I've already gushed about you with KC -- that you're just one of my favorite people who I've never met. But I feel like I know you because I've read so many of your books and I hear your voice every day telling me to pause. And as we were saying, Jesus, we give you everyone and everything. So, like, I am with you, brother. So I am with you. So I'm glad we're together today. And we're going to talk about your new book.

John Eldredge

It's good to meet a sister, Jennifer, and -- yeah, love your heart. Thank you for having me on the podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. This is going to be so great, so...all right. I shall stop gushing and we're going to talk.

Okay, we're going to talk about your book "Experience Jesus Really." But before we do, I want us to tackle something that you talk about in your book. You refer to it as being a disciple of the Internet. So let's go there. Explain what it means to be a disciple of the Internet and tell us, like, what are the effects of that?

John Eldredge: Oh, my goodness. It's not something we did on purpose. Okay? So this isn't our fault. It's just that if you live, you know, anywhere in the developed world, and even the undeveloped world right now, your entire life has been shaped by a way of knowing, a way of getting understanding, a way of, you know, getting to the bottom of things. You look it up. And the problem with Internet life, it has literally baked into sincere people and sincere followers of Jesus these underlying difficulties now in experiencing God.

For example, the Internet has trained your soul to expect immediate answers. Because there's no waiting, right? You need to find a new memory care unit for your parents, you've got to get your kid into a program for ADHD, you're going to get 3 million results in three seconds. And, you know, you do that for 10 years, you do that for 20 years, your soul is just accustomed to instant response. But God doesn't tend to respond like that. He's very intimate, he's very kind. But many people feel like, yeah, I just don't hear from God. And the reason is that they ask a question and God doesn't answer you in the speed at which the Internet has trained your soul. Okay? So that's one thing.

Here's another that I think is really diabolical. So the thing is you go look up, you know, the memory care for your aging parents, or you look up latest, you know, treatments for ADHD kids or whatever, and you get a good answer. Next day or the next week, you get back on and here's a new expert telling you, oh, actually that's -- none of that's true. All that information was false. This happens all the time. Right? I was trying to -- I've got lower back issues and so I was looking for the right ways to exercise and do sit-ups and that sort of thing. I literally get on the next week and here's a new expert telling me, oh, the way you're exercising, you're actually damaging your back. Right? Okay, this is Internet life.

The problem is this. It's baked into us a suspicion to believe, a suspicion to trust. And I just think these things are really in the way of approaching God, experiencing God, trusting him and trusting that your precious life with God is good, true, and reliable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah, that makes so much sense when you hear it laid out like that the way you did, John, because God is not Google, so you don't get that instant. But also, you almost -- once you really step back and look at it broadly, it's almost like you're on guard because you feel like you're constantly being gaslit.

John Eldredge: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, who can you trust, and when? So, of course, in our feeble brains we're going to transfer that to God without even realizing it.

So what I love that you're doing in your book is you're exposing this and the ramifications of being -- you know, having this kind of mindset and soul experience, and you're coaching us toward becoming an ordinary mystic. Now, for some that might be a new word, so let's explain that term. And as you do, please talk to those of us who may hear the word "mystic" and think do do do do, you know, that's hooley-gooley or that's not biblical or, or whatever. So unpack all of that for us.

John Eldredge: Yeah, it sounds like woo-woo. But it's actually really deep in the Christian tradition. So let me get us there by pointing out -- so the Internet life and life in the modern era and everybody's got a smartphone, we have an overly developed left brain and an overly developed left-brain approach to faith and to God. Your left brain loves facts. It loves analysis. In fact, your left brain will dismiss anything it can't dissect. It's actually very aggressive, this commitment to, you know, sort of a rationalistic understanding of things. But falling in love is not like that. And having friends over for dinner, it's just not like that. If you start taking your friends apart with your left brain, you're going to find all sorts of faults with them and you're not going to enjoy them anymore. And this has gotten into our life with God.

So ordinary mystics, what do I mean by that? There is this beautiful tradition in Scripture, and then down through both Jewish and Christian history, of men and women who actually experienced God, like they had a real relationship. When David says things -- like in Psalm 63 he says, "I've seen you in the sanctuary. I've beheld your glory, and there's nothing like you." And then he goes on to say, "Your love is better than life." He's talking about a visceral experience, a total, like, body, soul, spirit encounter with God. And you get into the New Testament and you start seeing the disciples get this, Paul gets this, you know. And then John in his first epistle says, Look, the reason we're writing the New Testament -- those are his opening lines -- he says, "We want you to experience Jesus just like we do." And so we're invited into this rich, wonderful daily sort of communion with God.

And if you read down through the saints and down through history, whether it's a Luther, an Aquinas, you know, St. John of the Cross, you get all the way back to Augustine, and even the really early fathers like Athanasius, they will tell you that the left-brain approach is helpful for certain things like studying your Scriptures, you know. But in terms of encountering God, you actually really need to open your heart, that God is best known through the heart.

And so I was going to title the book "Ordinary Mystics," because I want to kind of sort of shock people a little bit --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

John Eldredge: -- out of their left-brain Internet way of approaching this rich relationship we have with Jesus and get more into a childlike posture. Okay. So this is Jesus with -- unless you become as little children. You know, you give a kid an ice cream bar, and what they do is they say, "Thank you very much," and they unwrap it and they run over to their favorite spot and they sit down and they eat it. And they just relish it. Okay? You give an adult the same ice cream bar, the first thing they do is flip it over and look at the contents.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh.

John Eldredge: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's so sadly true. I've never thought of that. Yes.

John Eldredge: Oh, my gosh. We do this with everything now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

John Eldredge: We over-analyze. And so I am inviting, and Jesus is inviting -- he says you got to become like a little child to experience the Kingdom of God. There's just a -- set down the suspicion, set down the heartache, set down the guardedness, and open your heart again to your Father who loves you and your Jesus who wants to be with you every single day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. You know, as I hear this too, I think, John, some of this feels very much Western. We fear the overly emotional experience. We discount it as not real if it's overly emotional or, you know, just the -- we have such a high regard for rational thinking that I can see where we've gotten ourself into this place and, boy, what we're missing because of it.

So give us some real understanding, then, how can this path of an ordinary mystic, how can it help us with this soul draining -- like always being connected and help us not drown in this sea of information overload? How does it counteract that?

John Eldredge: Yeah, that's really good. So let me -- again let's redeem the word "mystic." Because the saints of ages past, you know, again, like a John of the Cross, they didn't call themselves mystics; historians did. But what the word used to mean -- it was actually a term of reverence. It was a term of respect. It meant these are people who really know God, like, they really know him.

And so people would come to, you know, like a Teresa of Avila or a Julian of Norwich. They would come to Brother Lawrence, you know, and his wonderful book, "A Conversational Life with God," right? They would come to these very simple Christians because they're like, you know God in a way that nobody else in my world knows him. I want that. Okay. So that's what "mystic" means.

But if you want to get rid of that word, I would just substitute "friends of Jesus." We are invited to become friends with Jesus, with all of the laughter and the playfulness and the joy of just doing life together. And so I would say that one of the first things you have to go into is your current disappointments with God and allow your heart to express them. You can't bury them because they'll just feed that suspicion and guardedness, right? You've got to go into, Lord, I really don't understand why you didn't answer that prayer. I really don't understand why sometimes it's so hard to feel you with me and invite him into that, like, to work it through together. Recovering intimacy with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it's almost like you would with a real friend relationship. You're not going to develop that intimacy and depth and safety if there's not honesty to begin with.

John Eldredge: Oh, that's good. I like that, Jennifer. Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So that makes so much sense. Otherwise it's just a shallow relationship. So I love that.

And I think, you know, when I'm with -- so I happen to be blind, John. And when I'm speaking to someone, I can almost -- 98% of the time tell when they're on their phone when they're supposedly listening to me. You know what I mean? I can sense it. And so I was just thinking as you were talking about that becoming a friend with Jesus, what an antidote to our digital connectedness, because we put it down. We put it down and we give him the regard and respect of being with him.

John Eldredge: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then we're able to really have some communion, some intimacy. That doesn't happen when there's a third member in the relationship and it's something you have to charge overnight. So I really -- this is a really nice way of thinking about this.

John Eldredge: I like that. I'm going to say two things off of what you said.

First off, that you can sense what's going on with the people you're sitting with. Friends, that's very much like being with God. Now, some people do hear the voice of God more clearly than others. That's okay. That's something we grow into. And some people sometimes see things from God. He gives them a picture, you know, or an image, and that's good. But that sense -- what you're talking about, the sense of presence that you have developed because of being blind, that's actually really rich, and that's a very rich way of experiencing God. We sense him.

And I want to throw this into a really new category for people. So where is Jesus mostly located in the life of a believer? Well --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, you're gonna have to answer your own question, because --

John Eldredge: He's in our heart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ah. Okay.

John Eldredge: Okay. This is Ephesians 3, that Christ may dwell in your heart, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Dwell in your heart.

John Eldredge: It's not just something for little children when we say, okay, open your hearts to Jesus. It's literally you are the new tabernacle. You are the new temple. Paul says that repeatedly through his writings. In other words, you are the new dwelling place of God.

So here's a new idea for people. When you are praying, or loving or worshiping, you are tuning in to the Jesus who now lives inside the depths of your heart. Not the Lord in the heavens -- though we do worship him there -- not Jesus just by your side, but there is an inner communion that every, every believer is meant to know and enjoy, and that's where we get the nourishment. When Jesus says things like, "I'm the bread of life," he's saying, I literally want to nourish you. I want to heal your hurts, I want to strengthen you for the day ahead. I want to comfort you in the evening after your day. He wants that kind of rich union.

And the beauty is this, Jennifer. The soul is created for union with Christ. Union, one. I'm the vine, you're the branch. Union. Well, so what we do -- what we begin to do, you set the phone down, you turn off the news, you get out of the chaos, you turn on a little worship music and you just begin to love Jesus, who is so close to you. He's in your heart. And you will discover a new kind of fellowship, a new kind of connection with him that you wouldn't trade for the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that -- what you just described, though, means you do have to make a trade or two, which might mean trading some time on your phone or trading in some busy schedule for a little more space. So talk to me about the connection between the discipline of how you manage your time and how you experience Jesus in the way you're describing.

John Eldredge: Yeah. Friends, I'm gonna -- I want to say this graphically so that you really hear us. The world is designed to destroy your union with Christ. It's not just distracting you, it literally destroys it, for this reason. So Nicholas Carr's book, "The Shallows" -- he almost won the Pulitzer for it -- he was showing how the Internet has now rewired your brain and it has destroyed your attention span. We now flit. We are so distracted. Well, it's very hard to experience God if you can't give him your attention. Okay. And then the world is so full of all these false comforts and where you go for security, where you go for a sense of joy. We buy stuff --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

John Eldredge: -- with same day delivery, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. Yeah.

John Eldredge: Oh, yeah. Okay. So what we have to realize is that we are in a war, and the war is actually over your intimacy with God. The enemy is using everything he can in the world to just keep you frazzled, keep you spun up, get you worried about, you know, what's going on in the world, and you -- it's not just a matter of I need a better quiet time. You need to say, I am in a battle for my intimacy with Jesus. Because if I think you -- and that is true. And if you perceive it like that, you're going to be much more vigilant.

A couple of examples. Close the computer, turn off the phone an hour before you go to bed. Don't take it to bed, folks. Don't sit in bed scrolling. Like, you need to give your soul, first off, a little bit of time to get out of the chaos of the day. But then there's also this opportunity for communion with God. Do the same thing in the morning. I have to discipline myself, do not pick up your phone first thing. Because you're in the matrix. Boom, here's the -- you know, the emergency text, here's the email that you were supposed to respond to two hours ago. You know, if you just leave your phone down on the counter face down and you say, no, I'm fighting for my intimacy and my union with Jesus. He gets the first of my day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, those are very doable, though they might make some people nervous because it feels like such a radical departure.

But, you know, something you said made me think, John, of something I heard. This morning on the news someone was reviewing a new book. And this is by a secular author, and he's in the media. And he talked about how early on the goal was to keep people's attention. Now their goal is just to catch their attention, because the battle for keeping their attention has been lost. And what you're describing reminds me of that. So before I get to my next question, this just -- I'm curious. Is this hopeless? Because when you say our brains have been rewired from how we relate to technology and our ability to be attentive, is that changeable --

John Eldredge: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- or is it -- are we stuck with it?

John Eldredge: No, no, no. Actually, on the brain science side, this is -- the brain -- this was a new discovery in the last, I want to say, 15 years. They thought the brain was fixed, that once it got wired, you know, that's it, that's your deck of cards. But now they realize the brain is incredibly malleable. It has a high degree of plasticity and it is easily rewired. And your brain is rewired through a couple of things. One is your habits. Like, taking your dog for a walk every day is really good for your brain. It's really good. Because, one, you're off technology. Two, moving your body, your brain actually likes it. Your brain likes walking because your brain likes progress. And at every step you take forward, the brain goes, ooh, this is good. We're moving somewhere. Really? It actually doesn't.

Jennifer Rothschild: I like that.

John Eldredge: This gets even more beautiful. Your brain is rewired by what you love. This is so awesome. Because as you simply love Jesus -- and, you know, you pick a couple of your favorite worship songs and, instead of listening to a podcast, you're worshiping in the car while you're in carpool, you're worshiping while you're doing the dishes or sitting between meetings, your brain will be -- well, here's the most lovely thing in the world. The soul is healed through union with Christ. It really is. The soul is healed through union with Christ. Now, you already are in union with Christ. And for everyone who has opened their heart to him -- and if you haven't done that yet, it's a wonderful thing to do --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

John Eldredge: -- to open your heart to Jesus. And so as you cultivate simple practices of union, you're reading your Scripture, you're listening to a good devotion, you are worshiping, but especially that simple act of communing, of just sitting and saying, "Jesus, I love you. Thank you that you're here. Thank you that you live in me," your union's being healed, and your union then heals your soul.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and I would recommend -- we do it all the time around here -- your One-Minute Pause app. If someone doesn't know how to get started with what you're speaking of because it just feels so ambiguous, downloading that app -- which we'll have a link to -- is a great structured way that gives breathing room for it to become personal. So I highly recommend that.

One of the things about the mystics, John, they were very tuned in -- okay? -- to wonder and awe. So can you give us some practical steps -- because we've talked about a couple routines and habits maybe. But what are some practical ways -- if you can associate practical with wonder. But what are some practical ways that we can cultivate a sense of wonderful and awe?

John Eldredge: Yes. Thank you. You're such a good interviewer.

Okay. So -- yes, let me give you a few things. One, gratitude. Gratitude reshapes the brain, by the way. If you just begin to express gratitude -- and I mean simple things like, Oh, Lord, I love this coffee. Thank you for this moment. I'm just going to relish -- I'm going to take 60 seconds and just relish the warmth of my kitchen and this cup of coffee. You just begin to express gratitude, that does it. That increases your appreciation for wonder.

Two other things too as well. Nature. So everywhere you can get nature. And, you know, you can literally watch nature videos. It works.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

John Eldredge: Yeah. Stasi and I were watching the new Planet Earth series. And you just -- I mean, the awe of God and his creation. But if you can get out in it on a regular basis. You listen to the rain on the roof -- right? -- you listen to the birds in your garden, like, that increases awe. It increases wonder. It really does.

And then I would go back and read children's books.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

John Eldredge: I know this is a funny thing, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. This is great.

John Eldredge: We read children's books to each other in the evening. And I mean Narnia. I mean some of the great stories that are filled with goodness and filled with -- you know, "A Wind in the Willows," things like that. "Treasure Island." It's very right brain, by the way, and it reawakens your soul through imagery, you know, and description to wonder.

Actually, here's a fourth thing. Listen to beautiful music.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

John Eldredge: I have a playlist that's just gorgeous choral music. And I'll just listen to it and your soul just -- it's like your soul starts wagging its tail like a dog.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's interesting, those things that you described, John, you're not multitasking when you're doing them. Which I think is one of the myths of being a worthy human, is that we have to be able to be so productive all the time and multitask. And what you're describing, there's no multitasking. You are 100% focused when you're doing any of those things, which I think is, you know, important for us to pause and realize that's okay. That's actually meritorious. That's healthy.

Okay, let me move to something else. Because as I'm hearing all this, I'm thinking of the person listening and they're like, oh, man, I want to linger like John is describing, and I want to experience this communion, and I want to be able to tune into wonder. I want all this. But quite honestly, disconnecting from my phone for even five minutes really makes me a little anxious. I'm really nervous about it. So how can that person begin to break free from that digital distraction? Or maybe it could even be an addiction. How can they begin to break free from that?

John Eldredge: I am going to give you two things. One, you bring the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ between you and your phone.

Now, this sounds very mystic. But the cross of Jesus Christ is extraordinarily powerful. And Paul says in Galatians 6, through the cross of Christ, we are crucified to the world, and the world to us. So, friends, if you just had a meeting with a really toxic person and you're walking away feeling horrible, the first thing you do is say, "I bring the cross of Jesus Christ between me and this person and everything they said." And you will be shocked at how powerful that is. If you're in a creepy part of town, ooh, I bring the cross of Christ between me and this neighborhood, or that store or -- you know. Okay? But you also do it between you and your phone, because it helps spiritually to break the unhealthy bond. Okay?

And then the other thing you do -- and this is where union with Christ is so beautiful. We think that, oh, okay, union and communion is when I'm feeling really loving and close. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Where union is the most powerful -- you mentioned feeling anxious. Oh, I'm going to be so anxious to let go of that. You invite Jesus into the anxiety. You say, "Jesus, I'm so anxious right now, I don't know what to do with my life." You literally invite him in. "Would you meet me in the anxiety."

And then you're going to do something really wild. You love him in the anxiety. Because the door to the soul opens from the inside. And when you love Christ in your fear, when you love him in your heartache, when you love him in your grief, you are opening your soul up to his presence. And then he's able to heal the anxiety, heal the grief, meet you in your loneliness. This has been one of the most powerful practices of my personal life, is when I'm feeling something, instead of moving away from the feeling to find God, I move toward the feeling and ask Jesus in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just to inhabit. I appreciate how pragmatic it is and at the same time how very dependent on Christ it is. It's a beautiful combination, John.

One of the things you do in your book, you use the term "shallow pragmatism." Okay? So I'm very curious about that. Tell us what that is, and how does it impact us?

John Eldredge: Oh, my gosh, friends. Well, the other thing the Internet has trained your soul in is to fear mystery. You know, you talked about, oh, it's just gaslighting, I've got to be so guarded against that. And we've been taught -- and this is that overdeveloped left-brain life -- you can get to the bottom of anything.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

John Eldredge: But you read the Psalms, and they are loving the mystery of God. They are not trying to solve it. And you don't live your life like this anyway, friends. You're not trying to solve the mystery of your friends; you just enjoy them. They're quirky, they're funny, they're -- sometimes they're, you know, really strange in their reactions to things.

But what I'm saying is this pragmatism, that everything's got to be done in three steps. Break it down for me. I want you to make God as practical as replacing a light bulb. Well, it doesn't quite work like that because he's a person, not an object, and you can't really break life with him down into parts. This is the famous problem with marriage workshops. You know, people go to marriage workshops. And the church loves these workshops where we're going to give you the tools --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

John Eldredge: -- you know, for a better marriage. And as a therapist, I've got people sitting in my office going, yes, he remembers my birthday; yes, he's good to our kids; but we have absolutely no intimacy because his heart is not even in the building. Okay. So you can't solve life with a toolkit. The Internet has lied to you about that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

John Eldredge: And so the pragmatism is also something we just have to kind of set down, and we just learn to enjoy the presence of God, who is always with us, in whom we live and move, have our being; but he is also within us. And, yep, there's -- there's practices like put your phone down, there's practices like put on good worship music, but that's -- it's more like going on a date than it is trying to fix the filter in your refrigerator.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that's interesting, John. I was thinking -- if you call it shallow pragmatism and God is not a mystery to be solved, then it would seem that the opposite of that would be almost a deep liberating uncertainty. Not uncertainty. It's something that -- I can't think of the word, but it's just not something we need to solve. God is not a problem we need to solve, life is not a problem we need to solve, and it's okay if there are loose ends. Which is hard for me to say because I hate loose ends.

So what I'm hearing in this whole conversation is, yes, there are some habits, yes, there are some practices, yes, there are role models, but ultimately it is the grace of Jesus and his kindness that draws us and guides us.

So with that big disclaimer that I just gave, I'll still ask this last question. Because I know there's some that will hear this whole conversation, and before they can even get their book they're like, oh, wow, I want to -- I just kind of want a reset. I want a reset button. So if you could give us a reset button as this last question.

You emphasize this concept of encountering God daily. So if I want a reset button to encounter God daily, and I want to start when this podcast ends, what's just even one habit or one routine that I could implement today to begin me on this path?

John Eldredge: Find one worship song that you really like. And not the rocking kind. I mean, I like rocking worship. But I want you to find something soft and quiet that you go, oh, I love that song. I want you to put it on repeat and just sit with it five minutes. Let it play twice, three times. That's it. Everybody can do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Everybody can do that. And so we will.

John Eldredge, this is why you're one of my favorites. May God keep using you and you keep writing these books and being you, brother. We love you and appreciate you.

John Eldredge: Oh, Jennifer, thank you. This has been delightful. Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It has. Awesome. God bless you.

John Eldredge: You too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you heard it from John. Pick one worship song that you like -- and, of course, make sure it's kind of contemplative, one that lets your soul breathe, and then put it on repeat. Just sit with it. Do this for five minutes. That's what John said, just five minutes. In fact, we've got you covered because our friend Michael O'Brien, who's former lead singer of NewSong, he has so generously allowed us to end with one of his songs. And we're gonna play it twice. It's called "All I Have Is Christ," and it's from the project by the same name. And, of course, we will link you to that. So it's gonna play twice at the end of this podcast. So when it ends, we want you guys just to sit and be with the Lord. Okay?

KC Wright: And we'll have links to Michael's music, plus John's book on the Show Notes for you today at 413podcast.com/347.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's just like the perfect combo if you ask me. Play Michael's instrumental music, which is called "Ascending," by the way -- we'll have links to that also -- while you read John's book. I mean, like, those of you, by the way, just as a little trivia, who have done or are doing my Heaven Bible study, you will recognize the song "Ascending," which is on Michael's instrumental project that I'll have a link to. Okay? It's the theme song for the Heaven Bible study.

KC Wright: Okay. We'll also have a link to John's One-Minute Pause app that Jennifer mentioned. And I guess that's all. And, man, was that a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: Fiber, receding hairlines.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: Can the 4:13 Podcast send me to Turkey to get a hair transplant? Can we start a GoFundMe?

Jennifer Rothschild: Actually, we need to pause, we need to reset. We need to leave all that clutter behind --

KC Wright: Okay, let's do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and listen to Michael O'Brien.

KC Wright: Oh, yes.

[Playing "All I Have Is Christ" Song]

Meghan Lambert: (Singing) I once was lost in darkest night, yet thought I knew the way. The sin that promised joy and life had led me to the grave. I had no hope that You would own a rebel to Your will, and if You had not loved me first, I would refuse You still.

Michael O'Brien: (Singing) But as I run my hell-bound race, indifferent to the cost, You looked upon my helpless state and led me to the cross. And I beheld God's love displayed, You suffered in my place. You bore the wrath reserved for me, now all I know is grace.

Michael O'Brien and Meghan Lambert: (Singing) Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Now, Lord, I would be Yours alone and live so all might see, the strength to follow Your commands could never come from me. O Father, use my ransomed life in any way You choose, and let my song forever be my only boast is You.

Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Alistair Begg: Whatever gain I had, I count it as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. For his sake, I've suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, but that which comes through faith, that I may know Christ and the power of his resurrection.

Michael O'Brien and Meghan Lambert: (Singing) Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

[Playing "All I Have Is Christ" Song]

Meghan Lambert: (Singing) I once was lost in darkest night, yet thought I knew the way. The sin that promised joy and life had led me to the grave. I had no hope that You would own a rebel to Your will, and if You had not loved me first, I would refuse You still.

Michael O'Brien: (Singing) But as I ran my hell-bound race, indifferent to the cost, You looked upon my helpless state and led me to the cross. And I beheld God's love displayed, You suffered in my place. You bore the wrath reserved for me, now all I know is grace.

Michael O'Brien and Meghan Lambert: (Singing) Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Now, Lord, I would be Yours alone and live so all might see, the strength to follow Your commands could never come from me. O Father, use my ransomed life in any way You choose, and let my song forever be my only boast is You.

Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Alistair Begg: Whatever gain I had, I count it as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord. For his sake, I've suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, but that which comes through faith, that I may know Christ and the power of his resurrection.

Michael O'Brien and Meghan Lambert: (Singing) Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus my life.

Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.

Hallelujah! All I have is Christ. Hallelujah! Jesus is my life.