4:13 Podcast: Can I Experience the Nearness of God? With Matthew West [Episode 216]

Matthew West: Jennifer, it's great to talk with you today. Thanks for having me today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I'm really grateful for this opportunity.

Matthew West: Is my audio good?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you sound good. Do you hear me well?

Matthew West: Yeah. Yeah, I hear you perfectly. I see a 40-minute limit on this call, so I -- sometimes I talk too long, though, Jennifer, I'm going to warn you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, I'll watch the time. And here's what I'll do. I will say to you, "Matthew, this is going to be our last question," and that way you know, land the plane. How's that?

Matthew West: That's great.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Have you ever felt alone after losing a job, a dream, a loved one, or even just losing your sense of purpose? Well, today singer-songwriter Matthew West will encourage you that wherever you are or whatever you're going through, God is right by your side and nothing can separate you from his love. Matthew West, though, he is not just an amazing songwriter, he's written an amazing book called "The God Who Stays," and it's based on his hit song of the same name. So settle in while Matthew takes you through the pages of his new book, and I bet you're going to hear your story in his words. Plus, the guy is hilarious. So get ready to get blessed.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because it's true, you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Happy you guys are here today. Me and K.C. in the podcast closet, and it always gets sweeter when you show up. I'm Jennifer, here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. And I just want to make sure we all understand exactly what that means. Philippians is not a spiritual sugar pill.

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it is not a superpower like I believe I can do all things; therefore, I shall win the lottery. We always want to make sure we were reminded of the context of that verse. When Paul wrote it in Philippians 4, he was talking about being content. Whether you got a ton of stuff or nothing at all, whether you have the whole world in front of you or whether you've lost everything, he said, "I have learned the secret --

K.C. Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to being content is that I can do all things.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So when we are talking about Philippians 4:13, being and doing more than we feel capable of, we're talking about being exactly who God's called us to be, doing what he's called us to do, and not doing it through our own strength, but through Christ's strength. That's the "I Can" message, and sometimes we need to be reminded. So I just wanted to make sure we're all on the same page of the Bible when it comes to Philippians 4:13.

Okay. Now, K.C. and I say it frequently -- right? -- that this is two friends --

K.C. Wright: Yeah, come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- one topic --

K.C. Wright: Oh, here's my favorite part.

Jennifer and K.C.: Zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it is, it is zero stress. And I want it to be zero stress for you.

And listen, y'all are going to enjoy this conversation. You already got a little tease of what Matthew and I are going to be talking about, so hopefully you'll see it with zero stress. And I can tell you it will be zero stress for you, but it was not zero stress for me. Okay. After I finished the conversation, my stress level went up high. I texted him and I was like, "I am such a doofus brain." Okay, and here's why.

K.C. Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you heard that he and I were talking about the time, because Matthew likes to talk a lot, he said. And he sees that our Zoom conversation has only -- it has a 40-minute limit. And I'm like, "No problem, bro, I got you. I will watch the time. I will make sure we do not go over." Okay, well, here's the problem with that. That would have worked if Jennifer could do math. Jennifer clearly cannot do math. So I forgot what time we started our conversation. So when I'm paying attention to the 40 minutes, I had already been 30 minutes into it, so I'm, like, speeding him through to get him to land the plane. Okay? Oh, I'm so embarrassed.

So when I was done -- and this is the first time I'd met Matthew. So I'm like, yeah, great for first impressions. It can only go up from here. So if this conversation feels like it's shorter, well, it's because it was. And at the very end of this podcast, you'll hear the end of me and Matthew talking about -- he's like, "Wow, I didn't realize 40 minutes went so fast. It didn't feel like it." Well, it's because it wasn't. All right, so there you go. I clearly need a timekeeper, and it shouldn't be me.

But here's the good news, my friends.

K.C. Wright: That's so funny.

Jennifer Rothschild: It just shows that if Matthew West can make this conversation so meaningful when it was only 15 or 20 minutes, you're going to see why he's such an exceptional songwriter. I mean, he just knows how to put a message into a succinct but super accessible, warm and welcoming and fun style.

So let's get to Matthew West.

K.C. Wright: Matthew West is a five-time Grammy nominee. Five times. That's amazing. He has received an American Music Award, a Billboard Music Award, a K-LOVE fan award, and named Billboard's hot Christian songwriter of the year. Apart from his successful career as a musician, he is also an accomplished author and the host of the Matthew West Podcast. Matthew and his wife, Emily, live in Nashvegas with their two daughters --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that was funny.

K.C. Wright: -- Lulu and Delaney and their dog Nick. I love it.

Okay, get ready. This is going to be so good. We love Matthew. And you're going to love this conversation, I promise.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Matthew. Because of the pandemic, it just feels like so many people have felt isolation and separation like we've never experienced before. And a lot of people, I mean, their souls are still bruised and achy, but God has never left us. So my question that I want to start with is how do we recognize the nearness of God? I mean -- now, I did say recognize, because clearly he never left us, he does not leave us, but often we don't feel it. So how do we learn to recognize the nearness of God, his presence, that he's right there with us?

Matthew West: Boy, that's a great question. I thought you were going to start with, like, what's your favorite flavor of ice cream or something. We're going right to it, aren't we?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, let's hit it.

Matthew West: I love that question. And I was -- I mean, I was putting gas in my car, and looking at the numbers going up and up, and I said, "Lord, where are you?" But it is easy to look around the world and say, God, where are you and what are you up to? And have you left us, are you -- you know, what's going to happen here? And I, like many, have had so many moments where we've wondered those things. And all I can say is that I have experienced in a very life-changing and powerful way God's finite focus and somehow, some way, this ability to find you, like that needle in the haystack, like that one in 7 billion, and get your attention in a special and meaningful way that can kind of let you know, oh, wait a minute, like, that was for me.

And when I'm telling you that -- when I'm saying that, I'm thinking of specific instances over the last couple of years when God spoke to me through different means and let me know that he had me on his mind, that he was paying attention to me, and that he wanted to remind me of his presence, you know, whether it was hearing a message from my pastor where I felt like literally what he was saying was just for me. Have you ever had that feeling?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Matthew West: I'll tell you, what I pray for during our talk today, I pray that one of your listeners has a moment like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Matthew West: Right? How cool is that? And that in itself is how we begin to discover God's presence through every stage of our lives, you know.

I think about yesterday, I was in this magical place called Wisconsin, right? And I was there by -- I thought by accident, because they called me and they said -- there's a huge festival that I've played many times, right? Ten thousand people come to this thing. I wasn't scheduled to be there this year. But the headlining artist got Covid, and they called me in the afternoon, they said, "Can you get here?" Two hours later, I was on an airplane flying to Wisconsin. And then the very next night standing on stage, with just me and my guitar, playing for 10,000 people. But before that -- before that, I'm in a vehicle with a runner. Now, a runner is the person who never gets to see the actual show. The runner is the person who volunteers and drives the singers like me from the hotel to the airport, from the airport to the hotel, from the hotel to the stage, right?

And so I got in the car with Howie. And Howie was driving me to the stage, and we started to talk. And I was a nervous wreck because I got to get on stage in front of 10,000 people, with just my guitar, because my band and crew are all on vacation. And he starts telling me a story. And he said, "I've been driving for this festival for 20 years and I've never actually seen the concert. I just know God called me to serve in this way." And I'm like, "How cool is that?" He said, "Last year I had quadruple bypass and I couldn't volunteer, but God healed me and brought me and now I'm here," right? And so during my show, I just had it in my heart -- I was like, I want Howie to come on stage to experience the concert, right? And so all of a sudden, I bring Howie and his wife, Pam, on stage, and 10,000 people are giving them a standing ovation.

And I say that story -- that's the freshest thing that comes to mind of just an example where I felt like God was mindful of me to allow my story to intersect with Howie, and for Howie to intersect with me, and then for the two of us to share that moment of God's faithfulness in Howie's life, saving his life, bringing him through that serious heart surgery, bringing him to that stage at Lifest, and letting everybody in that collective moment, thousands of people, sharing the beauty of God's hand at work in the stories of our lives.

So do I think God is present? Absolutely. Have I seen him pursue us? Absolutely. Are we always paying attention? Absolutely not. And do I ask God to give me eyes to see how he's trying to get my attention every single day? That is my prayer, even right here in this moment talking to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and it's right -- what you just described, Matthew, it's right in the middle of the ordinary.

Matthew West: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And sometimes we think God's big reveal presence is going to be on stage or it's going to be in a burning bush moment, but it is in the midst of the ordinary that God shows up.

Matthew West: Well said.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like the woman at the well. I mean, if we just -- that was her ordinary. And look who showed up. It's no different for us. God is right there in the midst of it.

Matthew West: Jesus came to her too, and I love that. And I could tell you so many stories of Jesus meeting me right in the moment where I need to -- and I love how you just said it, finding inspiration in the ordinary, seeing God at work in the ordinary. And I know -- like, when somebody says something like that, I know that somebody who has written books. And I did some studying on you, by the way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

Matthew West: Yeah, that you've written over eleven books and Bible studies. Now, that's according to Wikipedia, so maybe it's even more than that now.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not updated. Yes, it's a few more.

Matthew West: How many books have you written?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I just finished 19. And I will tell you something --

Matthew West: Are you serious?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- highly geeky. Okay? Highly geeky. I love the minor prophets. Like, I have a desperate crush on them. So I just finished a Bible study on the Book of Amos. There you go.

Matthew West: Wow. I love -- that is a sentence I've probably never heard before, and never will again --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, you probably won't.

Matthew West: -- "I have a major crush on the minor prophets."

Jennifer Rothschild: But here's what I want to know from you -- okay? -- that's not related to minor prophets. What is your favorite kind of ice cream?

Matthew West: Oh, so now -- okay. I'm going to get whiplash here.

Jennifer Rothschild: I am, I'm keeping you on your toes.

Matthew West: Well, I love how you deflect it and try not to talk about all your books, because I was going to ask you. But before I tell you my favorite ice cream, I have to say, though, like, you know as well as I do -- I write songs, I write books, you write books -- we have to have our antennas up. We have to be paying attention --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Matthew West: -- to the stories going on all around us. So I love that. And I know you're somebody who does that well.

So now the real meaningful stuff. My all-time favorite flavor of ice cream is probably mint chocolate chip because it always feels, like, ten degrees colder than any other flavor, and I've always thought that's, like a scientific marvel. But then typically there's -- Jeni's Ice Cream in Nashville has a flavor called Ooey Gooey Butter Cake, and that has changed my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, I just have to tell you -- because we are moving on because I want to get more to your book. But I just have to tell you, I've been eating low carb for a while, and I have found Rebel Ice Cream. I don't know if you've ever had it or heard of it.

Matthew West: I know. But it's like -- well, is it like the -- there's another one that's like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Halo. Halo Top.

Matthew West: Halo?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Matthew West: And I try to like it, but, come on, man, I just -- once you've tasted the texture of the full carb, it's hard to go low carb.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Except carbs don't fit in my jeans as well as they used to, so I have changed my standard.

Matthew West: So wait. Are you sponsored by Rebel Ice Cream?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. But I should be. I should be.

Matthew West: I should be. We need to talk about it for ten minutes on this interview and both of us will get a sponsorship.

Jennifer Rothschild: That sounds like a plan. That sounds like a plan.

All right, let me move on. I want to know what a blue couch moment is. Okay? Because I've heard about this and I want to know what it is and how we're able to experience it also. What's a blue couch moment?

Matthew West: I love to talk about this. And, in fact, I have my own podcast, and on every episode with every guest that I interview -- which wink, wink, maybe you could be a guest on my podcast at some point. I would love --

Jennifer Rothschild: I would love it, yeah.

Matthew West: -- it if we could do that. And I would ask you this question as well.

But I ask every guest, "Hey, what's your blue couch story?" And for me, what that means is -- I was a 13-year-old preacher's kid whose parents always told him about God's love, whose parents always raised me right and raised me to know that God wanted to have a personal friendship with me, not a long-distance one. But as a kid growing up, you know, church was what you did. It was the feeling that, you know, I think I'm going to get to heaven because I'm in the family business, you know. And so there was somewhat of a disconnect for a long time that I can remember.

But when I was 13 years old, I came home from school one day and I sat down on my mom's blue couch in the basement den of our home. And I always sat on this blue couch. My mom loved this blue couch. It was our family couch, you know, and it was lived in, right? And I sat on this blue couch, and I had a snack, and I turned on the TV. I grew up in Chicago, and the Chicago Cubs would always play day games and I would watch the rest of the baseball game before getting to my homework.

And on that day, I was changing the channels and I accidentally stumbled across a Billy Graham crusade, a rerun of an old crusade, and preaching to a stadium full of people. And I don't know how else to describe it other than he was saying all the same things I'd heard my parents say many times before, he was quoting the same Scriptures, but I heard John 3:16 differently that day, you know. It's "For God so loved the world." And I don't know how else to explain it other than it felt like it was "For God so loved Matthew West." Like, it became that personal.

And I think I've learned all these years later that the message of the Gospel, the message of a God who loves you, that he would send his only son to die for you, that doesn't become life changing, it doesn't become real to you until it becomes that personal to you, until you see your name filling in that blank, "For God so loved Jennifer," "For God so loved Matthew."

And so I'll never forget, my mom was doing laundry nearby, and the next thing I knew, she was actually seated next to me, and she asked me, "Do you want to pray right now?" And she knew. I remember thinking, how did she know? How does she know that I was thinking that, right? Well, you realize that's the moment every Jesus-loving parent prays for, when it becomes real to their child. And I let my walls down. Normally -- you know, you're a 13-year-old boy, you're trying to be too cool for school, which when you're a 13-year-old kid, there's no such thing. But I let my walls down, I said, "Yeah, I want to pray." And I took my mom's hand, and with Billy Graham in the background, and the choir was singing the old hymn "Just As I Am." I can remember it. It's such a vivid memory. That was my blue couch story, I asked Jesus Christ to be my personal Lord and Savior.

And I love to tell that story because it takes me back and it's the reminder of my first love. And I love to ask that question to others, because when I hear other people's stories, it's that reminder -- kind of what you asked me at the very beginning of God's pursuit of each and every one of us in unique and different ways. And really, as we read through Scripture, the whole message of the Gospel is a message of pursuit. And so I love hearing that story, and I love telling that story in the hopes that maybe even somebody listening today can think about their own story and say, well, do I have a blue couch story? If not, why not? And if not, could there be one for me? Could it be that God wants me to have that type of personal encounter?

Now, here's the biggest thing that I've walked away with, though, is -- I've been humbled in realizing that too many times I've assumed that God intends for us to have just one of those moments, or just one every now and then. These last couple years God's been showing me, like, no, no, no, no, no. It's like that old hymn, "And he walks with me, and he talks with me, and he tells me I am his own." And so I have to often say, "God forgive me for missing the invitation to have a blue couch moment with you day by day by day."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that Jesus comes to us when we're at our most awkward stage of life on an ordinary blue couch. What a kind God we have that he does pursue us. And I'm hearing in this conversation, just as I've heard in your music and in your books, that grace, Matthew, is a constant theme. And so obviously there's so many beautiful and inviting attributes of God, so I'm curious what it is about grace that has captivated you, and why is grace so meaningful to you?

Matthew West: Man. I mean -- here's what I wrote in my journal many years ago. And I'm still living this out. In fact, there is one word -- and you just said it -- that I've put into more of my lyrics of my songs than any other word, and it's that word "grace." And I think one of the things that I wrote down has always stuck with me is -- to put it in a nutshell, I feel like I write and I sing songs about what I know I need, what I know I don't deserve, and what gives me hope to wake up every single morning. And the answer to all of those is the same word, it's grace.

You know, there's a song of mine called "Broken Things," and it talks about, like, "I'm just a beggar in the presence of a king. I wish I could bring so much more. But if it's true that you use broken things, then here I am, Lord, I'm all yours." It's that idea of, like, how many times in my life has the enemy made me feel like if grace was a kingdom, I belong out on the street, out on the other side of that gate. And that song is a reminder to myself, and anybody who listens to it as well, to say, no, the gates are open wide. And as the song says, "And there's a seat at the table just waiting for you, so come on inside."

And so I think it's so funny -- isn't it ironic how -- we're living in a world right now that preaches the word inclusion, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew West: It's just crazy because it's like the world is craving these good things, and yet in the true fashion of a messed-up world, we seek it out in all the wrong things -- right? --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes.

Matthew West: -- and we twist the true definition. It's like all of these things that we see, it's like, you know, the world tries to distort and twist wonderful truths that are found in Scripture, right? It's like -- you know, I want to be able to look at a rainbow and be reminded of God's faithfulness, and the world wants to twist -- I'm not going to get into all that. But I think about, like -- I think about that, that word "inclusion" and all these things. I'm like, man, the ultimate inclusion is God's invitation to us by way of sending his Son Jesus and that word "grace" that says, "Come, come as you are."

But as my friend Max Lucado says -- I always loved -- I used to read his books growing up, and he'd say, "God loves you just the way that you are, but he refuses to let you stay that way."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ahh. Yeah.

Matthew West: And I've always thought about that. Thank you, Lord, for loving me the way that I am, but continually, day by day, making me more like you, a new creation in Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that is through grace. Through grace. Oh, Matthew, I'm just saying thank you, Lord, for the gift of God in Matthew West. I am loving this conversation, and I love the way that God -- it's clear when someone writes a three-minute song, when we hear it, we think, oh, it's so beautiful and it sounds like it just flowed out. I can hear the preponderance of your life and your ponderings showing up and how you have synthesized those into beautiful songs that minister to us. That is the gift of God, which I'm so grateful for.

And I know I could listen to you for hours, but we're going to have to get to our last question. I am so sorry. We might have to do another conversation sometime, my brother. Okay? But here's our last question.

Matthew West: I'm just impressed you use the word "preponderance." That was very --

Jennifer Rothschild: It's because I eat Rebel Ice Cream. Okay? You have too many carbs. Your vocabulary goes down with too many carbs.

Okay. Anyway, last question. Your book "The God Who Stays," okay, so this -- it clearly describes the nearness of God. So here's the thing. We are his people and we need to be the people who stay. So I want us to end this conversation with you describing the importance of our calling to be people who stay, and tell us how to do that when it's just not easy.

Matthew West: Yeah, that's a great question. This whole book is inspired by the reminder that God stays with us through each and every season of our lives. Especially coming out of a season of such isolation, that reminder that even in the midst of the social distancing and all those terms that we had to learn, life six feet apart, I was just powerfully reminded day after day that there is no six feet apart with God. If we will choose to draw near to him, he will draw near to us, right? And I love that reminder.

But if we stop short at just receiving the presence of God and never step out into the world and display the pursuit of God by the way that we pursue relationships with other people -- and this is way easier said than done. Isn't that the hard thing about -- you know, look, you've written, you said, 19 books. Do you ever sit down and feel like I do when you're writing your book, you feel like a giant hypocrite?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness, yes.

Matthew West: Because you know what God's calling you to write.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's easier to write it than to do it, yeah.

Matthew West: Oh, gosh. Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Matthew West: And sometimes I feel like -- even with my songs or with my books, like, I pray that they will be arrows that shoot straight to somebody's heart. But I'll tell you what, there's been more than one occasion when I'm on stage and I'm praying, "Lord, turn this song into an arrow," and the Lord will say, "You asked for arrows, but I gave you boomerangs," and they come around and they hit me upside the head, right?

And I feel like this book "The God Who Stays," specifically the section about being the people who stay, the people who create a blue couch invitation for the lost and the hurting and the broken, for the people who don't feel like they have a safe place to turn to. How can we as Christians do the same that God has done to us, stand at the door of our hearts and knock and say, "Come as you are." And so that's really one of the things that I wanted to make sure that I addressed in this book. Not just a chapter-by-chapter reminder of how God stays, but tangible examples of how we can be the people who stay with others.

And honestly, I drew a lot of powerful illustrations from guests that I've had on my podcast, whether it's a former NFL star who found a greater calling in opening grocery stores in low-income housing areas or -- I mean, the list literally is just one powerful story after the other. Of a college student, middle-class -- upper middle-class college student who left her education behind and is serving orphans in Iganga, Uganda, and just radically changing people's lives. I mean -- and it can be changes like that across borders and they can be changes like that being the people who stay with our neighbors and those around us who need us and they're crying out for help.

You know, I feel the loneliness around me when I do all my virtual concerts and when I go live on Instagram, and I see the comments pop up and they say, "I'm so lonely, I'm contemplating suicide." Our ministry gets messages like that day after day after day. And I feel now more than ever it's like, Lord, thank you for staying with me. Help remind me that my life gets good when I become about a cause greater than just me and help me learn how to be somebody who stays with somebody else even when it's not easy to do so.

Jennifer Rothschild: Our God is the God who stays. And so, my friends, I got nothing to add to this great conversation.

K.C. Wright: So good. Agree. Except you need to get his book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, true that.

K.C. Wright: And you need to listen to his podcast. And, of course, if you're new on Planet Earth and you haven't heard Matthew's songs, you need to listen to his music. We will have links to all things Matthew West, of course, on the show notes at 413podcast.com/216, so go check it out. And while you're picking up his book, pick up some Rebel Ice Cream.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: All right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? Because -- I'll give you a recommendation. Cherry chocolate chip is my favorite. And, my people and K.C., you are my favorites too.

K.C. Wright: Ahh.

Jennifer Rothschild: So thanks for being part of the family. All right, our people, love God and love each other well. You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: You truly can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Boom. Drop the mic. What a great ending statement. Okay, that was fantastic. And I would just like to tell you, you are one minute shy, I think, of that 40. Is that about right? Well done.

Matthew West: Awesome. Well, it was so great talking to you today. I don't know where we were on time, but I just enjoyed talking to you and I'm so glad that we got to do this.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I was just regretting I hadn't updated Zoom and gotten my more than 40 minutes, because this was so powerful, Matthew. Seriously, I really do see the gift of God in you.

K.C. Wright: Well, let's do it again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, let's do it again.