4:13 Podcast: Can I Heal After Church Hurt? With Joe Dobbins [Episode 349]

Joe Dobbins: For many people, they have moved on in time since that event of hurt. Since the person gossiped about them, since the leader mistreated them, they've moved on. But if they didn't heal, their emotions are still affected by what happened in the past. And what happens is over time is we just press forward, we push emotions down, we push them to the side, and they tend to almost manifest in new dysfunctions. You know, anger, sadness, things like that that all of a sudden we're dealing with consistently, but we don't actually connect it to what happened to us all those years ago.

Jennifer Rothschild: Church hurt has become such a common phrase that it trends on social media, makes headlines, and is the subject of documentaries, yet we in the church, we often don't talk about the causes and the results of church hurt. Not because we don't care, but often because we just don't know how. Well, on today's episode, you're going to get an insightful and honest conversation if you're one of the precious many who love Jesus, but you've been touched by church hurt.

Today's guest, pastor and author Joe Dobbins, is going to offer you compassion, wisdom, and practical advice to help you understand the nature of church hurt, heal, and reengage the church. And he's going to show you how to be part of the solution. Jesus loves people. Jesus loves the church. And by the way, there will be no church bashing on this conversation. And we love Jesus and his people, so let's tackle this topic.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our dear ones. Glad you're back with us. 4:13 Podcast is always better when you're around. And by the way, some of you have been leaving reviews, and we're so thankful. We read every one of them. So if you have not yet done that, please, as a 4:13 family member, would you leave us a kind review on whatever platform you listen. It just helps spread this message. And it's a good message of practical encouragement. So if you're new to us, I'm Jennifer. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And our goal is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13.

And we're talking about an important subject today. And I said up at the top there will be no church bashing, and that is the truth. We can talk about, as the church family, that sometimes there's church hurt without bashing the church. Jesus died for the church. We love the church, and we want to be servants of the church and serve our world through the church. So we're going to talk about that today, but we're not going to neglect the fact that church hurt is real and people have felt it. And you may be one or you may be someone who loves someone who's touched by it. And I want you to know, KC and I get it.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC's a pastor.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: He knows church hurt. And I'm a pastor's daughter.

I'll never forget this, KC. Oh, my gosh. I was in eighth grade. And it was between -- back in the day, you know, we had Sunday school and church. And it was between Sunday school and church, and I was in the ladies bathroom right outside our sanctuary. And our church was small enough that, like, everybody knew everybody, and so I knew voices very well. So I was inside one of the bathroom stalls. And so two ladies came inside the ladies bathroom. They could not see if anyone, or who, was in that bathroom stall. And they began to talk. They were choir members. And I loved both these ladies. And they started talking about the pastor --

KC Wright: Oh, no, they didn't.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- who was my dad.

KC Wright: Yes, he was.

Jennifer Rothschild: And they did not say anything about the substance of his messages or anything like that, but they were being very unkind about his appearance, specifically his hair, and evidently the way he styled his hair and this hair gel he wore.

KC Wright: Terrible.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was terrible. It was unkind. It was very junior high.

And I remember standing in that bathroom -- because I was done, but I was -- I couldn't decide. Here I was, eighth grade, I'm like, do I come out and make them feel awkward? Do I stay in here and protect them from being so embarrassed? I mean, I was steaming, I was furious, I was hurt. I was so protective of my dad. Oh, it was just one of the worst moments. And then literally I go out and church starts and there's those two ladies singing in the choir. And it was just one of the most hurtful -- hurtful and disappointing experiences.

But here's why it happened: because people are people. And you know what?

KC Wright: Yeah, come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Somebody could be telling a story about me that I'm not aware of, where I've hurt them as part of a church body. So what I'm trying to say is not, oh, aren't those awful people who do this awful. I'm trying to say, aren't all of us humans capable, without humility, of hurting others? And when we do it under the auspices of the church, Jesus gets thrown in and there's all sorts of confusion. So I get it. It's real.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But some of us can be part of the problem and some of us can be part of the solution. And actually, more accurately, all of us can be part of the problem sometimes --

KC Wright: Come on. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and all of us must be part of the solution.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm glad we're going to talk about church hurt today.

KC Wright: Me too. You know, I heard somebody say once, saying that you love Jesus and you don't like the church is like telling a husband that you like him but you think his wife is ugly.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what? It's true. Because the church is the bride of Christ.

KC Wright: Right, right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: And people will always let you down. People will always let you down. But God won't. He's faithful. So today's gonna be a good conversation.

Joe Dobbins is the lead pastor of Twin Rivers Church. A popular speaker, leadership coach, and strategic thinker, he serves on multiple executive boards for global ministries and universities. He and his wife, Kayla, have five children and live in beautiful St. Louis, Missouri.

This is a much-needed podcast, and it's just for you. Pull up a chair. Here's Joe and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Joe, we're going to talk about something today that I've heard way too much about lately, because it is the term "church hurt." And it's, like, talked about a lot more in the last few years than it ever has been before in my memory. So let's start right there with the hard stuff. Would you please define, what is church hurt?

Joe Dobbins: Well, thanks so much for having me today, Jennifer. And this is a very important topic, that hopefully this honest and maybe even raw conversation will help lead some people to healing.

You know, "church hurt" is a phrase that almost -- it almost seems like those two words should be diametrically opposed, as if they don't go in the same sentence, yet they're the reality of so many people. And I think one of the truth -- kind of to the definition of it is just -- it means you've been wounded in a place of worship.

And the reason that that is so difficult is -- I want you to imagine for a second that you are going to a hospital, and you're going there to have surgery for a condition that you have. And when you get there, you check in, you go through the procedure, but then on the backside you find out, due to the negligence of a doctor or a technician, that you're actually leaving worse than you came. So you came looking for healing, but what you found is a compounding hurt.

Well, that's the experience many people have had in church, and that's the reason that church hurt is such a difficult thing to heal from, is that it wasn't just that you didn't need healing, but now you need a secondary healing because the place that was supposed to heal actually caused you more pain.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. That is a terribly clear, good definition. Yeah, because if we step into a war zone with enemies, we expect injury. But you're right, it is oxymoronic to think that church hurt should go together, that that happens.

So in your book you identify eight types of church hurt. So I know we don't have time to go through all eight, but I would love for you to give us an idea of what are some examples of the kinds of church hurt that people experience, and tell us why we need to diagnose the exact type of hurt that somebody is facing.

Joe Dobbins: Well, I think it's important that we take time to identify them, because too often hurt is just generalized. But the reality is is that something has to first be properly labeled before you can treat it. And so in my book, I do cover eight unique hurts, things that range from rejection or wounding words, to toxic leaders, and even sexual abuse.

And I think that one of the reasons this is important is because for many people, they have moved on in time since that event of hurt. Since the person gossiped about them, since the leader mistreated them, they've moved on. But if they didn't heal, their emotions are still affected by what happened in the past. And what happens is over time is we just press forward, we push emotions down, we push them to the side, and they tend to almost manifest in new dysfunctions. You know, anger, sadness, things like that that all of a sudden we're dealing with consistently, but we don't actually connect it to what happened to us all those years ago.

It's kind of like in my house, we have a basket full of single socks. And I don't know how this happens, because two socks go into the washer, then those two socks are moved into the dryer, which is only four inches away, but somehow when it's all done, I end up with one sock. And now I've got something without a match. Well, I think a lot of people today are holding up anger. They're holding up, you know, depression, they're holding up anxiety. And they have this outputted emotion, but they forgot the event it ties to.

And so hopefully what this book will do is help them take that emotion they're dealing with in the present and tie it all the way back to what may have happened in the past, and by doing that, now they can properly label it and also they can find the proper path to move forward. And I think that's -- half the journey that people are fighting is they just don't recognize the exact healing that needs to take place.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good to connect the dots. Well, and then too sometimes, Joe, I think when we don't connect the dots, then we do this whole blanket "I don't like the church" or "God let me down" or -- when it may have been one specific person within a specific organization that made one specific hurt. So, yeah, I think sometimes we injure ourselves too when we don't diagnose and label. That's really interesting. Because a lot of people will stay away from church when they've had church hurt.

And so I'm curious, because I know you love the church and that's why you've written this book, and you love people, what do we lose if we just decide, okay, that's it, and we isolate ourselves from communities of faith?

Joe Dobbins: Well, that's a great question. And it's probably the most common question that people need to consider in their own journey, is this isolation that they've done. You know, this is just the truth. When we get burnt by touching a hot stove, we pull back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Joe Dobbins: Well, when we get burnt in a relationship, we pull back. And so -- it's not even within the church, but there are epidemic levels of isolation working in people's lives. And here's what that costs us. We start to believe things that aren't true, things that say that, you know, I can -- I don't need the church, you know, I can grow spiritually outside of the way God operates in the church.

But ultimately what we ignore is just an underlying truth in the New Testament, which is this: God delivers his best through people. If you were to read the list of spiritual gifts that are found in the New Testament, you know, healing, encouragement, wisdom, knowledge, things that we all want to receive, what you'll discover is all of them are delivered through people. And so when we isolate ourselves, we actually cut off God's delivery system. It's kind of like trying to get something from Amazon without giving them your address. It's just not going to happen, no matter how bad you want it.

And so you may need to change churches, you may need to put yourself under a different leader, but at some point you are going to need to open up to relationships again so that you can open up God's delivery system for the healing that you need.

And I just want to say this. This isn't only about what you need from someone else. Isolation also keeps us away from what you have for us. And there are so many gifted, talented, insightful people who are in isolation right now, and they may feel that they're okay, but I just want to point out, you've got something someone else needs. There's something God wants to send through you that's not being able to make it to someone else because of that isolation.

So I know it's one of the biggest steps, and I know it takes a lot of faith, because when you've been hurt in a relationship, you never want to enter into them again, but taking the step to rejoin or re-engage community is one of the most vital things you can do on your journey to heal.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm so glad you said that, Joe, too, because sometimes we just think about -- let me just phrase it this way. That is a good paradigm shift, that you also -- if you are the one isolating yourself because you've been hurt, you may realize you are keeping someone else from receiving the value of who you are and what God has to do through you. That's such a good paradigm shift.

And, you know, it's humbling. It's humbling to step back into a situation where you feel like you've been hurt. And even if it's a different church, just -- it's humbling and there's risk there. But we can trust. We can trust God. And so why keep the gift of God that is in you from others who need it. That's a good word right there, Brother.

Joe Dobbins: So true.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. You mentioned something when you were talking about the different kinds of church hurt, you mentioned something about people, leaders. So let's go there, because this is hard for people. Leaders who may not have been honest or who have fallen or have chosen to actively deceive. All right. So how do people who have been hurt by that really just, like, cling to the main thing, cling to hope when the people that they trusted the most have been deceitful?

Joe Dobbins: Well, this is a huge part of the church hurt discussion, and it's one I'm glad we're having. I want to thank you for being real and honest and not sweeping things under the rug. It seems like we're seeing news reports on the regular, you know, of leaders who have moral failures, who were dishonest, who have abused others.

You know, C.S. Lewis said, "Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst." And what he was really communicating to us is that in a faith setting, we have such high expectations for faith leaders, that what happens over time is is that we actually start to put confidence in them. So that when they fail us, it seems like there's an extra measure of hurt.

But I also think that it's an opportunity for us to take a step back. And if you're disappointed right now in a leader, you're disappointed in how they treated you or conducted their life and they did do something wrong, let me just say, first and foremost, here's what we do. We remind ourselves that's why Jesus said, "Follow me," not "Follow my followers." When we find disappointment in leaders falling, often it's because we've put confidence in them in a way that is unhealthy. And so we all have to take a step back and say, I'm following Jesus, I'm not following his followers.

But if you happen to be disappointed with a leader right now, I just want to encourage you with two things. And the first one's this. God understands. You know, it never ceases to amaze me that the most vicious lies and the ultimate rejection of Jesus came not from Greeks or Romans or pagans, it came from those who were considered children of God, those leaders. And so I just want to say God understands what it's like to be disappointed by a leader, he understands what it's like to be abused by leaders, to be overlooked by leaders, to be spoken harshly towards. He understands the pain you feel.

But I also want to encourage you with this. God not only understands; God is just. Resentment is our way of keeping record of what someone did wrong towards us. And we hold on to it because we believe if we let go of resentment, that they get off the hook.

Well, when a crime is committed, you know, in real life, a detective will come in, and he goes through a meticulous, tedious process to collect the evidence so that justice can be served. And one of my favorite verses is Psalm 56:8 that says God collects all of our tears. I believe he doesn't just collect them to show he empathizes or that he has compassion. I believe God collects our tears as evidence to the wrongs done, so that we can have assurance that justice will be served. It's his gift to us to basically say this: You can let go of resentment because I'm holding your tears. And by holding your tears, you can trust justice will be served.

And so I hope you find some comfort in that if you're disappointed with a leader, because maybe of all of the stings of church hurt, that's one of the worst.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is. And then -- I'm glad you said that about resentment, because when we hold on to the resentment, then we're just adding more insult to the original injury because we're hurting ourselves. I'm glad you pointed that out. That's a hard thing. God give you grace if you're in that situation. He will. He will give you grace to relinquish that resentment. Because God's got this. Yeah, he is just. He doesn't overlook. He doesn't overlook our labor of love and he doesn't overlook when his shepherds choose to mislead the sheep. So good word, Joe.

So let's stick with honest and hard, because you also mentioned in the eight types of hurt -- and you deal with it a lot in your book in a very honest way, so I'd love for you to go there with us. You talk about the type of church hurt, wounding words. So let's go real with that. Because I think you might have been, you and your wife, on the wrong end of this, and I'd love to know how you navigated it.

Joe Dobbins: Yeah. You know, the church has given me some of my best experiences, and also some of my worst.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. I'm sure.

Joe Dobbins: And, you know, at the end of that, what we all discover is that usually it's people's words, because they carry so much power, that end up damaging us the most. Even when we were young -- my wife and I got engaged very young -- we were just in our early 20s -- and, you know, there was a lack of confidence in her parents about our budding relationship, and they honestly chose to kind of not support us in our engagement. It was a real tense family kind of thing. And my wife wanted to honor her parents, but she also wanted to follow God's will and what she felt like was, you know, marrying me and moving forward.

Well, in her tradition, one of the things when you're carrying a stressful load and -- that you would go in a worship service while people maybe were singing or praying -- and it wasn't uncommon for someone to go to the front of the room, kind of kneel down at a bench and just pray, just pour their heart out to God. This was a very comforting way to handle stresses that can get too heavy to carry. Well, she did this one Sunday. But what she didn't know is behind the scenes, some members of her family had kind of gossiped about this situation. And so a church leader had received some of that gossip, and so that church leader comes up to my wife while she's praying in front. And normally when a leader would come up, they would just pray with you, they would comfort you. Well, instead, this leader, in front of the entire congregation, just began to verbally correct and harshly accuse my wife of being rebellious and ugly towards her parents and outside of God's will. And this is in front of everyone. And each one of those phrases, each one of those words were the opposite of the heart my wife actually had, and they wounded her immensely.

Because first and foremost, it stole from her her safe place. You know, the reason that some of these rooms are called sanctuaries is because they're meant to be protective, to allow people to weather these storms that they're in. So it stole that from her. She was embarrassed, she felt like she had been falsely represented. Obviously I felt incredible rejection from those words, and it was incredibly painful. For us, it put us in a season where we didn't leave the church, but our hearts became closed to anything happening in the church.

And I think that's an important distinction, that there are many people listening right now, Jennifer, who -- they're in church, they attend, but their hearts are closed. And I think that's important to recognize that just because you're in church doesn't mean your heart's open and that you may need to heal from something.

And so for us, we had to go through a process where we first recognized that, hey, we're present, but our hearts are not open. But then we also had to go through this process that allowed us to forgive, to move forward and heal in that. And I think many people are there today, that they need to go through a process of healing from these wounding words they've experienced.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, yeah. And the goal is not just to stay engaged in the church, not just your body to show up, but for your heart to be open. That was a real good distinction. And it reminds me, your end goal for your book is to help people re-engage with the church.

So how do you recommend, like, in your situation, you know -- I think you touched on it a little bit. But those who have been hurt, how do they step back into a community of faith? What process do they need to go through?

Joe Dobbins: Well, and we talk about the specific hurts. And each specific hurt has a unique path. But if I were to give you an overall kind of process that almost every single hurt is going to have to have, it would be -- you know, just three things. Here's the first one...

First and foremost, restore God's authority over your pain. You know, when we end up getting in a place where emotionally our whole life is turned over because of something someone did towards us, well, in all that chaos internally, what happens are our feelings take the throne of our heart, and all of the sudden they're now in charge. So we start making our decisions by our feelings, our actions are governed by our feelings and our attitudes. What we believe is true is all filtered through our feelings because they're sitting on the throne of our heart.

Well, here's the thing. Your feelings are there to enhance life, but they're not there to lead life. And so one of the very first things you and I have to do is we have to say, Christ, you are put back on the throne of my heart. You're made Lord over this pain. It's interesting to me that Jesus is called the Prince of Peace. That means that his peace is tied to his authority. That if he's not ruling, we don't receive. And so one of the very first things we have to do is go, Christ, you call the shots on how I look at this. Christ, you're the one that's going to inform how I treat people or how I react or the things I say. You're going to be Lord over this pain.

The second thing that's going to have to happen is you're going to have to release that pain to Christ. You know, the truth is is that Jesus was the most rejected man to ever live. I mean, his earthly father rejected him before he was even born. Herod so rejected Christ that he killed every one of his peers. And this just continued on. His brothers and sisters rejected him. You know, the Greeks, the Jews, the Romans all rejected him. They tried to throw him off a cliff, they ridiculed him. And even his closest disciples. So he understands what it is. And it's in that understanding that we do this: we recognize because he understands he can receive our pain. And so we choose to release it to him.

Now, what does that practically mean? Well, to release your pain to Christ practically means you refuse to go anywhere else for comfort. It means that you stop going to substances, to success, to sex, to accomplishments. It means that you no longer start -- you stop treating this pain with anything other than returning to Christ. And so that means every time the memory comes up, every time the trigger is pulled, every time that you feel the anger bubbling back to the top, you go to a place where you say, Christ, I'm giving this to you again because you understand my pain. And then out of that exercise of that, what we find is eventually he receives our pain and we receive his peace.

And then the last thing I think all of us are going to have to do is we've got to refuse to carry unforgiveness. You know, very few people ever feel their way into forgiving. And it's because forgiveness is a decision. It's not a feeling. It's an intentional moment where you decide this person doesn't owe me anymore. They don't owe me an apology, they don't owe me an explanation, they don't owe me a repayment or -- you know, I'm just letting them off the hook. And what that does is that you're letting them go, but you're also now deciding to bless them instead of curse them in your mind. Jesus talks about this in Luke 6:28. He says, "Bless those who curse you."

And so what this looks like is every time their memory, their -- that offense starts to grip its way back in your heart or memory, you just take a moment to pray for them. Listen, now, that's not easy. The very first time you try to pray for them, it may be pretty limited in what you can want for them. But eventually -- listen, it's not the feeling of doing this, it's the obedience that all of the sudden starts to work in your heart. That when you pray, God, I pray they would come to know you more. I pray that they, God, would be blessed today, that, God, they would sleep well tonight. Just even those small things, it works out that unforgiveness in our hearts.

And let me just say this. Forgiveness is not a one-time event; it's a daily exercise. It's like going to the gym. We do it again and again and again until one day what we notice is the memories aren't as strong, they're not as frequent, the pain is not as pronounced because we have truly forgiven them. And listen, this is possible. I know there are people listening that think there's no way. Just begin to obey what Scripture says and watch and see the work of the Holy Spirit in the way that he's able to take your obedience and turn it into a blessing that you receive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, good and hard. Good and hard.

You know, I remember -- Stormie Omartian, the author, once wrote, "Forgiveness doesn't make the other person right, but it makes you free." And that's what you're describing. Wow. And through grace we can do this. And so this was really good, because you touched on our -- you know, our responsibility in reconciling and being, you know, made -- coming back to the church or to Christ or whatever it is. Okay. Because we all know the church can blow it, people in the church can blow it. And obviously we can blow it, too, when we choose to just carry the resentment.

Okay. So, like, our spiritual growth, our relationship with God, it is not the responsibility of the church. It is our responsibility. So how can we take responsibility for our own growth? You just gave those three points. So is that how we take responsibility for our own growth, or is there anything else we can do?

Joe Dobbins: Yeah. And this is so important. Because if you live believing someone else is going to come heal you or going to forgive for you, it's just not going to -- you can't outsource those things. The truth is that you have to do this. And I think the pitfall we're describing is blame. And we have to create space in our minds that the other person wronged us, but we're not going to blame them for where we presently are. We are going to take responsibility for what we have. Like -- you know, and if you look, blame is one of the first things that ever happened in Scripture. You know, Eve blamed the snake, Adam blamed Eve. And so it's the first relational dysfunction.

So I think that I felt that personally when I was in that season where I'd felt rejected. You know, every week it was just, you know, well, what she did and what she said, and that's not where I -- that's the reason I'm not where I am or not where I want to be. And the truth is at some point we have to recognize we were wronged, but we can also take responsibility. Both of those things can be true at the exact same time.

And so what I would say to someone who today -- wherever you are, you know, if you're years past the pain or it just happened this week, there's two things that are required. The first one is this: you have to make a decision to heal. You just have to decide. You're never going to just wander into healing, it's not going to come about by chance.

You know, when Jesus -- in John 9, he comes to a man who's been laying by a pool for 30 years lame. And Jesus asks him this question, he says, "Do you want to be made well?" That seems like the most ridiculous question on the planet. But here's what Jesus is acknowledging. It doesn't matter what I want for you. Do you want to make a decision to move forward? And, you know, what you'll find in Scripture is God never heals anyone against their will. And so it's a partnership between us and God, so the very first thing you have to do is decide, I'm beginning to heal today.

And then the second decision you have to make is you have to decide to dedicate time to healing. Now, I know, you know, every person listening, Well, I'm so busy, I'm short on time. Listen, we've got five children. You know, we barely sleep. But what I'm saying is recent research has showed that the average person looks at 265 social media posts, emails, texts on their phone every day. Turns out we have the time, we just need to dedicate it to healing.

And so if you're here today and you feel like you're stuck, I think starting with the decision to heal and then dedicating time to that could be the two most monumental decisions of your entire life. Because God is a healer, but we have to choose to begin the healing journey.

Jennifer Rothschild: Word. All right, Joe, this is excellent. I am so grateful for this resource for us as believers.

You may be listening right now and you need this resource, you may know somebody who needs this resource also. So instead of just sending it to them and say, Hey, you need to get right with God and go back to church, perhaps you need to read it first and lovingly enter into a conversation with them and engage them with the book. I just think this is such a great resource, and I'm grateful for it.

We're going to get to our last question, though, because it is the last section of your book, Joe. It's very practical and it challenges each of us that each of us as the church -- because the church is us. It's those who've been redeemed and born again in Christ. Okay. So we want to embody certain values, certain character qualities that will help reduce church hurt, make it like it's a non-thing, and help those who have been hurt be restored in their confidence again in who the church is. So what are some of these things that we can do as the body of Christ to help be part of the solution and not keep creating the problem?

Joe Dobbins: Yeah. And that's the reason the last few chapters of the book are dedicated towards, hey, let's make sure that we're all living out this reality of trying to make our churches healthier. Because like you said, it's not a building, it's not a person, it's a collective community.

And so we talk about what it takes to actually have unity. And that is a very interesting chapter, because I think we throw that word around and it's -- you know, it's always seen as so wonderful and warm. But, you know, diversity means nobody gets their way. It means everybody compromises for the greater good. And so how can we preserve unity?

We talk about, you know, what it means to love, to actually reach out and love. And it's one of -- that's one of the most powerful chapters, because what happens is in -- as we're young children -- I have a -- you know, some very young children. They love everybody. I mean, they'll hug anybody. But it seems like the more we mature, our love goes from whoever and whenever to very selected and few, and so we actually do the reverse of what the Gospel calls us to do. And the truth is every church hurt was grounded in a lack of love. And so if we can learn to love according to the way Christ loved -- and I talk about that very practically -- you can see immense ground gained in this discussion.

We also talk about having a flexible faith. And what that means is is how do we deal with change and how do we -- you know, a lot of disagreements in churches are based on change. But what do you need when you need a change? You know, I talk about that there are three tests to take to determine if you may need to change churches. Because I recognize that not everybody needs to stay. Some people are in toxic environments, some people are under abusive leaders. And then sometimes it's just your time to find a new place, a new community for a purpose that God has. And I give a very specific set of tests that people can take to make sure they're leaving in a healthy way.

Ultimately what I hope people get is that they hear me come alongside of them in a practical -- with practical steps, personal stories, and, honestly, just no waxing over, but the raw discussion of what does it take to look like Christ in a community, but also to heal from some of the things that were very un-Christlike in our past.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's live like Christ and let's love like Christ.

KC Wright: Yes. Did you hear him say that every church hurt is grounded in a lack of love? Not on my watch. I want to love like Jesus. He loves the church, he died for the church, and he does his best work through the church. I believe the local church is the hope of the world. So let's represent the heart of Jesus and be a part of the solution when it comes to church hurt.

Hey, you need this book. Every pastor, every church leader, every church member needs this book. It's a powerful resource, seriously, for healing and a prescription for prevention. So as always, we're giving one away. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And by the way, I also loved how he said at the end that diversity means nobody gets their way. I mean, I love that. We choose unity and love. We want to be people of grace. So if you need to leave, leave healthy. The world needs to see a church that looks like Jesus. So may we all reflect our Savior.

So, KC, we probably need to tell them how to get to the Show Notes.

KC Wright: Yeah. You simply go to the Show Notes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not written there.

KC Wright: No, it isn't.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's see how -- we've only done this about 347 times. It is 413podcast.com slash --

KC Wright: Yes, it's --

Jennifer Rothschild: What is our episode?

KC Wright: 349.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. You got that? You want the transcript, you want to get the free book, you want to buy the book, you go to 413podcast.com/349.

KC Wright: And to win one, you go to Jenn's Instagram. @jennrothschild, right? That's how we normally give away the book.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is how we normally give away the book. And can you tell our people that we did not prepare that part of the episode. Well, we just winged it and we didn't do it well. But that's okay. We can do all things, right?

KC Wright: Through Christ. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Love you guys.

KC Wright: We love you.