4:13 Podcast: Can I Kick Self-Doubt to the Curb? With Erica Wiggenhorn [Episode 181]

Jennifer Rothschild: Everyone thinks you've got it all together, but inside you're asking, "Am I really enough?" No matter how good we look to others, the nagging voice of self-doubt is hard to shake, isn't it? Well, today we're getting honest about self-doubt and then we're going to kick it to the curb. On the 4:13, author Erica Wiggenhorn draws from the story of Moses, the greatest self-doubter in the Bible, to show us the lethal connection between self-doubt and self-reliance. You're going to learn how to stomp on that nagging doubt and step out into God's power instead. So self-doubt, you have been warned. Here we go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up, my friend, to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey there. I'm Jennifer and I'm here to help you be and do more than you even feel capable of as you live the "I Can" life. That was K.C. Wright, my seeing eye guy. It is just two friends, one topic --

K.C. Wright: And --

Jennifer and K.C.: -- zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're not stressed. Are you stressed? We hope you're not stressed today.

K.C. Wright: This is a stress-free environment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

K.C. Wright: No stress allowed.

Jennifer Rothschild: And today we're talking about something that could be stressful, and we're going to kick it to the curb.

K.C. Wright: Get on out of here.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's going to mean you will even have that stress alleviated. So I hope you're ready. So take a deep breath, because we are going to talk today about self-doubt. We've all got it.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, different degrees. But mine has gotten less as I have gotten older. I think I've just gotten more accepting of myself and learned to find my confidence in Christ. But it's a real thing. It is a real thing. Oh, K.C., it was the worst in my twenties, though I wouldn't have known that's what it was.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so way back in the day in ministry, I started out with singing. I used to travel and sing. We'd get in our little Dodge Caravan with my keyboard and our sound system and we'd travel all these places and sing. Well, this one particular event was -- it was a church that was having a big New Year's bash for their singles ministry. So I was a little married woman at this point in my late twenties and I forgot what it was like on New Year's Eve when you're single. So I set up my sound system and I'm singing. And the whole time I'm singing, they're talking. And I'd sing a little louder and they would talk a little louder. And I would try to say something to them and they would ignore me, because they're talking to each other, of course. And so I'd sing again and they'd talk, and I'd sing louder and they'd talk louder. You get the whole thing, right? So by the time it gets to my last song --

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I am so full of insecurity, I am so full of myself trying to make this thing work; it's not working. I totally missed the whole memo of people don't listen to singers on New Year's Eve. But anyway, I didn't figure that out at that point. I get to the last song. I sing it probably through gritted teeth. I cannot remember. I'm sure it was beautiful. And no lie, here's what I said at the very end: "All right. Well, I'm done singing now, so y'all can be quiet," and I walked off the stage.

K.C. Wright: Drop the mic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. And drop the contract of hiring this woman again. Yes, I did that. Now, you know why I did that was because of self-doubt.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I was feeling totally, like, out of my element and I was just so full of myself. And the more self-aware I became, the more miserable I became. They didn't care, they didn't know, but, boy, did they hear that last line. And then we awkwardly left the stage, left the building, and I was like, "Oh, no, I have got an issue." Well, thankfully that issue has been resolved.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But that's a good picture --

K.C. Wright: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of how self-doubt can totally mess us up. So I'm glad we're talking about that today with this amazing woman. I loved this conversation, by the way. Erica is -- she's a rock star.

K.C. Wright: She is.

Jennifer Rothschild: She's just awesome. So let's introduce her.

K.C. Wright: Erica is an award-winning author and the founder of Every Life Ministries, bringing you the truths of Scripture to transform your life. She's the author of three Bible studies released by Moody Publishers: "An Unexplainable Life," "The Unexplainable Church," and "Unexplainable Jesus: Rediscovering the God You Thought You Knew." Man, I want to read all those.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Good titles.

K.C. Wright: She teaches the Bible all over the place, including the Arizona State Prison System and Bridges, an online show on the Christian Television Network. Erica lives in Phoenix with her best friend and husband, Jonathan, and their four kiddos, only two of which are human. Okay. The others are furry and adorable, and I understand, I'm a dog lover myself. Now, take a deep breath, relax, and listen in as Erica and Jennifer talk about Erica's book, "Letting God Be Enough."

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Erica, we are going to talk about your book in some very specifics in just a minute. But first I want to start with something that is a constant, perplexing question to me. Okay?

Erica Wiggenhorn: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So why do you think so many Christians -- well, actually, let me drill it down. Why do you think so many Christian women -- okay? Because I am one. Why do you think we struggle with self-doubt?

Erica Wiggenhorn: Such a great question. A question I wish more people were asking, honestly. I think we struggle with it because a lot of times in our church culture, we really applaud the Christian superwoman syndrome, if you will. You know, we are the first person to sign up to take a casserole to a family in need, we volunteer in the children's ministry, we have to be the person ready to give hospitality at the drop of a hat. And so church culture tells us that we need to be all things to all people in all of our church at all times. And we know that we can't do that on top of, of course, having perfect children who are always well behaved and the wonderful romantic marriage with the date night every Friday on Instagram, right? So we know that living that life is impossible, but yet at the same time we feel compelled to try to somehow keep it all up, and we know deep down it's more than we can handle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh. Girl, you sound like you've been inside my head and in the head of most women I know. I mean, I think you really pegged it. And so, yeah, it's kind of this -- we're set up to experience the self-doubt because we have expectations -- or perceptions of expectations that just don't fit reality. So speaking of non-reality, tell us what imposter syndrome is. And what does it look like and what does it feel like in our lives? Because a woman might go, "Impostor syndrome? Well, I don't have that." What is it?

Erica Wiggenhorn: You know, I love what you said there about perceptions. Because imposter syndrome is nothing more than a perception. And perceptions are not reality, they are these false expectations that we have of ourselves or that we assume other people have upon us. But imposter syndrome is a perception that we are a fraud, that on the outside everybody sees us one way and we are working super hard to try to keep that perception alive in the minds of people around us, but on the inside we feel like a fake. We feel like what we really think about ourselves, how we really feel on the inside is completely different than what everybody else sees and experiences when they are around us. And so it can come in feelings of intense fear of rejection. If people really knew how I felt about myself, if people really knew how I felt about dropping off a casserole tonight at Mrs. Smith's house at 5:00, they would reject me. And it can also be a fear of failure that, you know, this house of cards that I'm striving so hard to keep standing can just get blown over at the drop of a hat. And when that does happen, when I fail to perform, when I fail to meet other people's expectations, what will happen? And so we sort of keep this mask on that we are happy and we are loving life and we are full of joy in Jesus and doing all the things, and inside we feel lonely and we feel empty and we feel tired and we feel afraid.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think some people hearing this are resonating right now. I think you've hit on something. But, you know, there are tons of books out there on this topic of self-doubt and how it shows up in imposter syndrome. And so I'm curious, though, in your studying, what does The Book, the Bible, what does the Bible say about this?

Erica Wiggenhorn: Amen. Well, you know, I'm a Bible study girl. So, of course, the first thing you're going to do when you begin to realize -- you know, this was my personal struggle, Jennifer, and so it was like, okay -- God was like, "When are we going to deal with this, child?" Like, "It's robbing you of all of your joy, you are allowing the enemy to control your thoughts, control your feelings. When are you going to allow me to bring healing to this?" And so the first step was to go to The Book. The Book. And I discovered Moses, who I affectionately refer to now, after spending lots and lots of time with him wandering around in the desert -- he is the greatest self-doubter of the Bible. And what was so fascinating to me is how God taught Moses to overcome his self-doubt, and how fundamentally different it is from the world. Because the world tells us -- you know, I began to look up imposter syndrome, research it. What do psychologists say? What do thought leaders say about how we overcome this pattern of thinking in our lives, these perceptions about ourselves and other people? And they said, you know, well, what you do is you write down a list of all of your past successes. You recount your resume and experiences that you've had, and education that you mastered, and all of these things that you've accomplished, so that when you begin to beat yourself up, you just sort of unroll that resume, look yourself in the mirror, and remind yourself of all of the truths about your life. And, you know, that's not bad advice. I mean, you talk about, in your study "Me, Myself & Lies," how it's not honoring to God to be constantly beating ourselves up and speaking negatively over ourselves in our own head. So that's not bad advice, it's just inadequate advice to overcome --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Erica Wiggenhorn: -- a fear of inadequacy. Because there will be things that we face in this life -- and, Jennifer, you know this, this is part of your testimony. There's things that we will face in this life that there is nothing on a resume or that we sat in a classroom to prepare us for.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Right.

Erica Wiggenhorn: Only God can give us what we need in that season and in that assignment. So what I found so fascinating is that when Moses came to God with his fear of inadequacy and he was like, "God, I can't do this." Like, "Who am I to do this, God?" Like, this is way bigger than me, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Erica Wiggenhorn: God did not unroll Moses' resume and give him a bunch of props. Which your first reaction is, "Well, man, it would have been kind of nice if you would have done that, God." I mean, clearly he was struggling with self-doubt. A few props might have been nice. But God doesn't do that. Instead, what God did is he offered Moses the promise of his presence. He said, "Moses, I will be with you." I will be with you. And I take so much comfort in that, because when I am trying to do all the things and be all the things and make everybody else happy and be a good Christian girl, and I feel like I'm drowning, it's not about looking at all -- it's not about looking inside of myself and saying, "I can do this. Let's just look in the mirror, Erica, and tell yourself all of the reasons why you can do this." No. It's just pausing and saying, you know what? God is with me. And if God was enough for Moses to lead 2 million plus people through a desert and through a Red Sea, God is going to be enough for me for what I'm facing today, because thank goodness he has never called me to do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Wow.

Erica Wiggenhorn: But God does call us to do hard things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Erica Wiggenhorn: And that is a beautiful promise. God would be with him the whole way. And secondly, God goes on to give a second promise, which I have circled in bright red ink in my Bible. God goes on to say, he says, "But, Moses, I'll be with you. And when you have led the people out" -- and I have that "when" circled a whole bunch of times, because it just jumped off the page at me. Because God didn't say to Moses, you know, if you are obedient enough, if you are spiritual enough to fully understand my will and hear my voice, if you are clever and smart enough to be able to communicate the plans to the people. There's no condition there. God's saying when. Like, "I'm going to do this, Moses, I just need you to follow along. Just take my hand, follow me. I've got this, Moses. All I need you to do is believe me." And that is so freeing to me, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn: It's like, okay, I can let go and just say, "All right, God, I'm going to believe you. I know I don't have -- I know I am inadequate in this situation, but you are with me."

Jennifer Rothschild: It's interesting, Erica, what you're describing. You know, we feel this lack of confidence. And so, yeah, when God and Moses are having this encounter, God is not saying, well, here's the reason you should be confident, he's just saying, "I'm with you," and then, therefore, the response is God has confidence in Moses and Moses is just going to act according to God's presence and promise. That's a beautiful picture, Erica. Because I think we feel the ifs rather than the whens, we really do. And you're giving a beautiful picture. Almost a simplicity. And the other thing I hear you saying, Sister, that's really interesting to me, it's this whole concept of self-doubt. What's the first four letters? Self. It's about us.

Erica Wiggenhorn: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you flipped it upside down and said, no, it's really not. It's about God and his presence and his calling. So one thing that's curious, though, to me -- and you kind of alluded to it -- is that when God's calling us to something, it seems like or we assume that it should feel easy. You know, like we should wake up fired up to do the thing. But often it feels like the things that we try the very hardest at, they seem to be the most difficult. So I don't know if you feel that also, but I'd love your opinion about that.

Erica Wiggenhorn: Yes. I think that's a big tactic really that the enemy brings against us, right? And I think we see it a lot on social media, you know, people that are out there, and it's like, "I'm loving life," and, you know, "I'm hustling hard," and, "I'm doing the thing and life is great." We don't see them in a puddle on the floor at the end of the day when they got some bad news, right? We just see the highlight reel. And so somehow we get this thought in our head that it's like if I'm doing what God wants me to do, if God is in this with me, it's going to be easy, it's going to be thrilling, it's going to be amazing. And I don't know why we get that idea in our head, because, man, if we open up our Bibles, our heroes of the faith in The Book, nothing was easy in their following God. It was glorious, it was incredible. I mean, we look at the amazing wonders that Moses was able to witness, you know, parting the Red Sea, manna from heaven, you know, water from a rock. I mean, Moses was able to witness some incredible wonders of God, but Moses also asked God to strike him dead because his calling was too hard. I can't really think of anyone in particular in the Bible that as soon as God called them to something, they were like, "Yee-haw, this is great." It was all hard. They all had hard moments. And I think God does that on purpose, not because God wants us to experience hard things, but because he wants to teach us that his presence is enough. No matter what we go through, he will never leave us or forsake us. He will never abandon us. He will never lie to us. He will never just leave us in the middle of our crisis or our desperation and say, "Well, you know what? You just didn't have enough faith and you just weren't obedient enough and so, you know, I'm done with you now, I'm going to move on to somebody else." God never does that.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Erica Wiggenhorn: And so until we can release that expectation that it's going to be easy, it's going to be thrilling -- you know, we're told, "Hey, if you're operating in your passion and in your skill set, it's not going to feel depleting." Well, that's not really the way of Jesus either. I mean, Jesus calls us to be poured out for the sake of his kingdom. It's about emptying ourselves so we can be filled with him, and that's where the strength and the joy is going to come from.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, girl, I cannot recommend this message and this book enough to our listeners, because -- well, even with the nature of this podcast, I'm constantly reminding our 4:13 family the reason I named this podcast 4:13 after Philippians 4:13 is not because of the first two words, it's not because of the "I can," it's because of the "through Christ." When he is in us, he is our power. He's the one who empowers us, because without him, we can't, nor should we. And, you know, as you were describing all that too, Erica, I love the paradigm shift. Because you're right, we have been sold a bill of goods in the church and in the culture: if you're living out your passion, it should be easy. No, it can be hard. And I thought of even just the psalmists, "Serve the Lord with gladness." Why would he tell us to do that if there were days that it wasn't going to feel like something happy and glad, you know?

Erica Wiggenhorn: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is a recognition that there are hard days. But I also know that sometimes we compensate for that with the flesh. For lack of a better word, with the flesh. In other words -- like, how do you know that you're not striving out of a place of fear -- okay? -- like you're just trying to make it happen, when it comes to these roles and responsibilities that God has called you to?

Erica Wiggenhorn: Yeah. So there's a couple of very clear markers that you can hold on to, that you can identify with to say, okay, I'm in a place of striving. And again, we talked about this. A lot of times, you know, we're so busy doing good things, but those good things have become a bad thing because we pursue them in exchange for the best thing. And so we're doing all of these good things out of fear of other people being unhappy with us or thinking we're not a good friend or not a good Christian or not a good mother. And God has a different plan, but we're so worried about other people's perceptions that we continue to operate in that place of fear. But a couple of very strong markers are -- one would be isolation. There's nobody in your life who truly knows how you're thinking and feeling about yourself. You are faking it until you make it, you are posting all the happy family pictures on your Instagram, and inside as a mom you are completely empty and exhausted and wondering if you're doing this all wrong. There's a huge disconnect. There's an isolation between what everyone else sees of you and who you really are on the inside. That's a big sign that you're striving from a place of fear. A second one is micromanaging. When you are feeling like you have to have your hand in everything and you cannot let go, you can't delegate, you can't trust anybody else to do things that are important to you, that is another big, big sign. Because the fear behind it is is if it's not done the right way, if it's not done perfectly, I will be deemed a failure. And so we are trying to control everything, we're trying to manipulate relationships. We just cannot let go of anything and we're working ourselves to death. So those are two very simple questions to ask yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Erica Wiggenhorn: And if you're saying I do those things, that's me, then, girl, you're in a place of fear and you need some freedom in Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Oh, that's so good. Well, I think we can all identify. I can see seasons of my life when I have been both of those things on steroids, you know, and then I can see other seasons in my life when I've been cool with those. And I think that speaks so much to just the process of walking with the Lord and really, like, accepting the promise that Moses received, the "I am with you." Because when we really know, you know, that he's enough, then we just don't have to try to be. Girl, I'm glad you wrote a book on this, because we're clearly not going to have enough time to go through all the amazing nuggets, I can just tell. So this is going to be our last question. Let's end practical. Okay? So give us some practical ways to stop responding in fear. Okay, so you just exposed it to us. So give us some practical ways to stop responding in fear and instead surrender in faith when God calls us to something.

Erica Wiggenhorn: Yes. So I would love to be able to say here's the one thing you do and then it'll just be all better, but I would be dishonest. It's a process. It's a process. And what we have to understand is that to really surrender to God, it comes from fully resting in the goodness of his character. For most people out there, if we were to go around and take a poll and say, "Hey, do you believe God can do anything? Do you believe God's power is great enough to accomplish anything God wants to do?" I think probably 99% of Christians would be like, "Oh, yeah, absolutely. I know God is great, I know God can do anything." Where we wrestle, Jennifer, is with the -- we wonder if God is willing to be good on our behalf. It's not if he's able to make good on his promises, it is will he be good on our behalf. And that really comes from an understanding of his character. We have to know the heart of God to be able to trust that God's heart for us is good and he longs to be good on our behalf, and that always comes in the context of a relationship. And so if we're not spending time with God in His Word, if we're not getting our face in The Book, we're never going to be able to live like it's true. So it comes from saying, "God, I struggle to believe that." It starts with honesty and saying, "God, I struggle to believe that you are somehow going to be good in this situation. I can't wrap my mind around that and I need you to help me," and then being intentional about spending time with God in His Word and allowing him to show you that he indeed is willing to be good. We see that in Exodus 33. Moses has his all-time moment where he's just like, "You know what, God? This is too much. Strike me dead." Like, "I'm out. This is too hard." You know, he experienced ultimate betrayal by his brother, he was lied to, the people disobeyed. You know, it just went on and on. And Moses felt entirely alone and it was all just too much. And I've been there. I've been in that place where I've just said, "God, I feel like I'm carrying this burden all by myself, and it just feels too heavy, I can't do this anymore." And in that moment, Moses cried out to God and he said, "Show me your glory." And essentially what Moses is saying, he's saying, "God, I know what you can do, because I've seen you do amazing things. But right now, when I'm in the pit of my despair, I need to know who you are. I need to know the essence of your character. I need to know if you're good." And what God does for Moses in that moment -- you know, he doesn't shame Moses, and he's not like, you know, "After all I've done for you, how dare would you ask me if I'm really good?" You know, that was not God's response.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn: He's like, "Look, Moses, you're going to go over there in the cleft of the rock, I'm going to hold you with my very own hand. I'm going to pass by and you are going to behold all of my goodness." I mean, can you even imagine? I'd just like to see a glimpse of God's goodness every now and then.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Erica Wiggenhorn: Moses is experiencing all of God's goodness. And he follows it up with, you know, "I am the God who is abounding in love and full of mercy and compassion." God answered that cry of Moses' heart when he was like, "Show me your glory. Show me who you really are, because I need to know you're good today, God." God answered that in Moses' life in a beautiful way. And I believe that's an honest cry from our heart that God loves to answer. He wants to show us his goodness. So when we're stuck in that place and we're afraid and we're overwhelmed, pray that prayer to God, "Show me your glory. Show me who you are, God. I need to know you today."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, Lord, show us your glory. Show us your goodness. Because when we see his glory, everything else gets into perspective.

K.C. Wright: I could identify with a lot of what she described here, because I think we all deal with self-doubt on some kind of level.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we do.

K.C. Wright: Heck, even Moses did, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: So I think we're in good company. Okay? Be encouraged. So if you want to go deeper with all of this, get Erica's book. And we'll have a link to it right now, just for you, on the show notes at 413podcast.com/181. And we will also have a transcript of this conversation right there so you can review it or share it. Share it all kinds of ways, on Facebook, on -- however -- whatever way the Lord leads you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whatever your sharer is, share it.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. You just hit that like button, that love button. And we love those kind reviews as well. Well, our people, we love you and we mean it. We really do love you. We're here for you. We love the reviews that say you two have become my best friends --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: -- that we can take along wherever we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like having coffee.

K.C. Wright: That's our prayer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's good stuff.

K.C. Wright: So, remember, fear is not the boss of you. Remember, you can kick self-doubt to the curb because you can do all things through Christ, which gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

K.C. Wright: And --

Jennifer and K.C.: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Doesn't she have a lot of substance? That was super practical.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I like Moses.

K.C. Wright: Yes. I relate with Moses.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can identify with him.

K.C. Wright: Me too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Can't we all? And I think it's so cool he was a stutterer.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gives you a lot of hope.