4:13 Podcast: Can I Pray Through My Doubt? With Niki Hardy [Episode 372]

Niki Hardy: When we have these questions like, "Why did you answer her prayer and not mine?" or, you know, "Are you good? This doesn't feel good," intellectually we know we're kind of okay, but emotionally we react and we don't go to God because we do believe these lies that say things like, "Well, I can't question God," and, "Who am I to question him?" and, "Well, I can't tell him that, that's awful," and, "I'm the only one," and, "I need proof to be sure." And Jesus said don't doubt. And so there's a whole load of shame and guilt and hidden messaging that comes with it.

Jennifer Rothschild: When we find ourselves torn between doubt and faith, we can feel disappointed or disillusioned and even distant from God and it's really hard to know where to turn. But that, my friend, is when we turn to God. So if you've ever dealt with doubt, today author Niki Hardy is going to invite you to take Jesus at his word. She's going to give you a very simple four-step conversation guide for praying through your doubt and even hearing from God. Doubt does not have to be your faith's kryptonite. Oh, no. It can be your faith's superpower. So let's unpack this beautiful gift today with Niki Hardy. KC, let's go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey there. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. It's two friends and one topic -- good topic today, by the way -- and zero stress here in the podcast closet (singing) under the stairs.

KC Wright: (Singing) Under the stairs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, (singing) under the stairs. That's where we are, we're under the stairs. (Singing) Everything's better. We don't need a sweater.

KC Wright: (Singing) Under the stairs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Under the stairs.

KC Wright: Oh, I'm going to have to just write a jingle.

Jennifer Rothschild: You are going to have to write a jingle.

KC Wright: I'm going to have to write it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Tell him, people. Tell him in your reviews that you want KC to write and sing the jingle.

Anyway, if you're new to us, I'm Jennifer, and my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13 along with us. We really are glad you're here. I already told you a couple of weeks ago -- I've been telling you that I'm out on the road because it's the Grand Finale tour of my Fresh Grounded Faith conference. Fresh Grounded Faith is retiring; Jennifer is not.

KC Wright: Thank you, Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can still find me on the road all through the fall and next year; I'm just not going to be doing Fresh Grounded Faith anymore. So if you want to come the end of October, I'm going to be in Lubbock, Texas. And then the very last Fresh Grounded Faith is November 7th and 8th in Springfield, Missouri. Kirk Cameron will be with me, and comedian Anita Renfro.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's going to be so good. You know, one of the things I do, KC, for most of my guests, I give them some of my favorite things, which includes my favorite chocolate from Springfield, which is Askinosie Chocolate, and then Buff City soap.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I always give them a little bar of soap. One time I gave Tim Hawkins one, Narcissist. Well, I didn't mean anything by it. He goes, "What are you saying? You think I'm a narcissist?" So anyway, now it's our little joke. But I love that Buff City soap.

And you were telling me, right as we began to record, that your phone is blowing up.

KC Wright: Well, yeah. Because, you know, we have a rule in the podcast booth, silence the watch --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

KC Wright: -- silence the phone. And I'm getting notifications from Buff City Soap -- which they do not sponsor our podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. They should.

KC Wright: They should. But once again, JR has made an impact on my life. I now go to Buff City Soap. And they are telling me that there's a sale going on with soap bombs and all these things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Now, you just have to be careful on what soap you buy from Buff City. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

KC Wright: Because right now I'm scrubbing down with this one bar and it's like confetti.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's fun.

KC Wright: It's bright and colorful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

KC Wright: But a few weeks ago, I used a bar of soap that was -- it was brown. And that don't look too good in your shower.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what was the fragrance or the mix?

KC Wright: It was a coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh. Did it smell good?

KC Wright: It was a coffee soap bar, and it did smell good. But after you use it a couple times, you just don't want that sitting in your shower. I have a cleaning lady that comes once a month, and I had to get rid of that. She would have had some thoughts.

Jennifer Rothschild: She would have wondered, what is that?

KC Wright: Soap.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's humbling.

KC Wright: You just have to be careful with the soap you purchase, the color of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, mushy brown soap in the shower could be confusing to the eye. I got you. I got you. Well, on that note, everyone.

KC Wright: Oh, goodness. Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's hard to recover from that. But I will tell you this. Okay. My favorite fragrance, though, from Buff City is called Narcissist. And it's really based on the flower, the Narcissist. But, yeah, it looks like you're just calling everyone a Narcissist that you give the soap to. But at least it doesn't look like a mm-hmm.

KC Wright: That is one thing about coming to the Rothschilds' residence, you are hit every moment you walk in this -- in any room, fragrance --

Jennifer Rothschild: I do love it.

KC Wright: -- beautiful smells. I mean, candles and...

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's like a fragrance library.

KC Wright: True story.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

KC Wright: And we won't even go with the smells from the coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

KC Wright: Wonderful. Wonderful scents.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is what it smells like in here right now, by the way.

KC Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It smells lovely. Okay. Well, I hope the smells around you today are lovely. And if they're not, make them lovely. You can do that. Okay, this is the podcast. You can. You can. So light a candle.

Actually, pour yourself a cup of proper British tea. Because Niki Hardy is with us, and she is a proud Brit. I love her accent.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I not only love how she talks, but I love what she's got to say. So let's introduce Niki.

KC Wright: She's, yes, a proud Brit now living in the United States and the author of the Audi Award nominated "Breathe Again" and "One-Minute Prayers for Women with Cancer." Niki has been featured on the Hallmark Channel, Life Today, and Premiere Radio. She lives in North Carolina with her husband and a ridiculous Doodle named Charlie, who is the main reason their three grown children come home. They just come home for Charlie. And I understand. I have a Doodle too --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we get that.

KC Wright: -- named Brennan.

Jennifer Rothschild: We get that.

KC Wright: I get it. You will love this conversation between Jennifer and Niki, so pour your tea and let's listen in.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Niki, I already bragged about you with me and KC, you know, that I love having you on the podcast. Pretty much -- I mean, you have good content -- okay? -- you do. But pretty much you could just give me your grocery list and I would be like, "Oh, yes, I receive you, Jesus." Because you have just such a beautiful accent. And even the tone of your voice, I told you before we went on air, it's like dark chocolate. So I just love that.

So listeners, get ready. Just stay awake -- okay? -- because she can just soothe you as you listen to this voice.

So we're going to start, though, with something that going to keep us wide awake. Okay? We're going to talk about, Niki, praying through our doubts, which is a thing.

But before we do that and get into that specificity, I want you to kind of brainstorm a little with us about how you think most of us who are believers feel about doubts. Like, are we okay with that? Do we feel comfortable with it? Or is there something that you've observed that maybe we believe about doubting that is incorrect or destructive?

Niki Hardy: That's such a great question to start with, because I think on an intellectual basis many of us are okay with the idea of doubting. On a theological basis we say, yes, we're never going to know everything, God is mysterious. He is ultimately knowable but unknowable; it's okay that I don't have all the answers. But then something happens internally when we have questions.

When life is so painful, it raises up these difficult issues that we struggle with, whether it's about the church as a whole, whether it's about God and his providence and his provision and his goodness, or whether it's about his Word, whatever it is.

When we have these questions like, "Why did you answer her prayer and not mine?" or, you know, "Are you good? This doesn't feel good," intellectually we know we're kind of okay, but emotionally we react and we don't go to God because we do believe these lies that say things like, "Well, I can't question God," and, "Who am I to question him?" and, "Well, I can't tell him that. That's awful," and, "I'm the only one and I need proof to be sure." And Jesus said don't doubt.

And so there's a whole load of shame and guilt and hidden messaging that comes with it that we have inherited perhaps from our church upbringing, perhaps from even reading the Word, whatever it is. But I think there's this kind of intellectual versus emotional response that we have to our questions.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think you're so right. I think that's true in a lot of areas in the Christian faith, like depression, anxiety, mental health issues. I think we're intellectually okay with it, but then emotionally we can get all sorts of shame and guilt, et cetera. I think the same applies to doubt. And I think it's really important -- thank you for pointing that out to differentiate, because there is no shame in it. And that's something we're going to unpack in a minute.

But I think it's important to acknowledge right up front that you can feel the emotions of doubt and all of the things that go with it; whereas at the same time, you're still kind of solidly trusting, which is, I think, what your life demonstrates. Because I remember the last time you were on The 4:13, you talked about your cancer and your battle with cancer. And in that same conversation, you also told us about losing your mom and your sister to cancer. Okay.

And that's just, like, the stuff in the life of Niki Hardy that we actually know about, right? You've had plenty of opportunities to wrestle with this. So I am curious, has doubt been one of your responses to the hard stuff in your life?

Niki Hardy: Well, it's interesting you bring up our last conversation, because I think what came out of that season was -- I did question God. I wanted to know why. But really what God was showing me in that season was how to connect with him and lay hold of the abundant life, the full life that he has for us even in the midst of the storms.

Because I mistakenly assumed in my head because I'd believed an abundant life is a Facebook fabulous life, and it's Instagram worthy and -- rather than it being one of intimacy and connection and joy and delight even in the hardest time. So I think that's what he was teaching me during this season.

But since then, Jennifer, I've come to this place where -- been through a whole 'nother raft of things. And what I felt like was -- I started to feel untethered in my faith. And I remember we were pastoring a church and we stepped down from leadership. No drama, just felt called out by the Lord. And after that season and COVID and other things layered on top of it, I remember I was out for a walk early one morning with my lovely but rather ridiculous Golden Doodle, Charlie, and I knew exactly where I was.

I was on the trail that we always walk for him to do his morning business, you know, and yet I felt so lost. Not geographically, but more spiritually than emotionally even. And I remember I came back inside and my husband, Al, was sitting on the sofa, and he had "Amazing Grace" playing over the speaker. And I kind of rolled my eyes with the emotional maturity of a tween because I was like, ugh, he's so spiritual, you know, even when things are rubbish and so annoying.

And as I went upstairs, the famous words that I had held on to and made my own, as so many of us have from that wonderful hymn, they followed me up the stairs. "I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see." And I thought no, the opposite is now truer for me. I once was found, but now I'm lost.

And it was as if my faith was changing and shifting, even dying from a thousand paper cuts. I wasn't sure what was happening, I just knew that I felt incredibly lost. I still knew God, I still loved God, but I didn't understand him. I wasn't even sure if I liked him and his Word and his people. Things that once either brought me alive, now laid me low. Or once things that I read and I could say, well, that was just God doing that in the Bible and -- you know, so it must be okay. And then I was at a place where I was like, well, hold on. If that was a headline in today's newspaper, "King Orders Murder of All Two-Year-Old Boys," we wouldn't think, oh, well, it was God, so it must be okay.

And so things started to kind of unravel, and that was very unnerving, British understatement there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay. There's so many things you said there. I went through a very similar season and, honestly -- I wouldn't have said it as lovely as you -- but the same sentiments. Very unraveling. It was a spiral and untethering. I called it an inner deterioration. Like, this framework that had held me up started to crumble piece by piece.

And so I'm curious -- you use the analogy of a thousand paper cuts. Unpack that for me. What does that mean to you?

Niki Hardy: Well, I think for many people, we can get to the same place feeling disconnected from God, disappointed, disillusioned, confused, skeptical, whatever kind of words sit best with your situation. Many people get to that place with one big sucker punch. You know, it's the loss of a child, it is a diagnosis. It's something that just wipes them out completely.

But for me, it was thing after thing, knock after knock after -- you know, painful little jabs and -- just a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Niki Hardy: That's the only way I can describe it. And I thought, is my faith fading? Is it changing? But it did feel like it was slowly dying. And I found that quite frightening really, because I love my faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yes. I can relate. And I think that's important to describe, because sometimes it is the one event. But sometimes it's just so many events that the fabric of our faith just gets weak. We can't pile more stuff on it.

And so one of the things I hear as you're describing, that I would like you to explore for a moment, is what manifested perhaps as doubt, was that really the root? Or was it fatigue? Or was it just many things and doubt became one of the manifestations?

Niki Hardy: I think I want to say yes and all the above.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Niki Hardy: So doubt was in there. I was doubting God's goodness and I was doubting his Word and his people. And when I say was, I mean, this isn't like it's a season that's a one and done, I'm like, "Oh, now I'm all good."

Jennifer Rothschild: Last Tuesday. Right.

Niki Hardy: Yeah. It's more that now I'm able to live with this mystery and these questions in tension with my walk with God in a way that I couldn't before. I think a life of walking and talking in faith and questioning God is actually a really healthy faith. So I would hate people to come away from listening to this thinking, well, Niki went through a season of doubt and questioning and now her faith is rock solid and it's all tied up with a pretty bow. No, no, no, no, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gotcha. Yeah, yeah.

Niki Hardy: You know, I've just figured out a way to walk and talk with God about it. But I think it was a mixture of doubt and questioning, skepticism, confusion, disillusionment, disappointment. So many different things, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it makes total sense because we are so fully integrated. I mean, we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and it's frightening sometimes.

So something you just said which reminds me of something I read, Niki, that caught my attention. You said in your book that over the last few years you've grown more unsure of your faith, but -- than you've ever been. Okay, more unsure of your faith than you've ever been, but more sure of God than you could hope for. Okay, so unpack that.

Niki Hardy: Yes. Everyone was, Wait. What?

Jennifer Rothschild: What?

Niki Hardy: Hold on a minute.

Jennifer Rothschild: Love it.

Niki Hardy: That doesn't make sense. Unpack that for me.

I think what I mean by that is my relationship with God has grown stronger and stronger, but I don't profess to know his ways better or understand his thinking better, or even necessarily his Word better or his church better or anything. So for me, when I say I'm more unsure of my faith, I think that's everything around that surrounds the core of our relationship with God. So those things are all very -- quite shaky in a healthy way, much more healthy way. I think they've moved from being shaken in an unhealthy way to just being held in tension in the many paradoxes of our faith and theology and walk with God.

But my relationship with God has grown closer and closer. And that's because, as I say in "God, Can We Chat?" it's about spending time with him and being in conversation. And I can say to you, Jennifer, "Oh, you should trust my friend Julie. She is fantastic. She's honest and she's kind and she's forgiving and she's full of grace and she's fun, and your life will become better if you read about her and you get to know her." And you say, "Well, I've read about her and I've talked to her." And I say, "Well, have you had her speak into your life? Have you walked through hard things with her?"

And you're, "Oh, no, no. I just read about her or read what other people think about her." And so I'm like, "Well, get to know her personally. Go through hard stuff with her and you will see that your relationship with her is growing stronger and stronger and more intimate." All the other stuff about why, you know, she lives where she lives, why she makes the choices she makes, you might not fully understand, but your relationship with her is stronger. And that's kind of the analogy I like to use.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it makes so much sense. It really makes so much sense. And I appreciate it too, Niki, because I think sometimes, oh, my faith is solid. It feels so self-generated. But when you can say, I'm more certain of God than I've ever been or than I ever hope to be, that's a very God-centered -- whereas he's your anchor, not your experience, circumstances, set of beliefs as your anchor. And there is a difference there, and one -- boy, if it gets untethered even slightly, it is so unmooring. Yeah, when God is your anchor, that doesn't change. I love the way you think, my sister.

Okay, I want to talk about something else in your book because you alluded to it just now. You emphasize the difference between seeking certainty and seeking relationship with God. Okay. Lots of people equate certainty with the goodness of God or the revelation of God, and lots of people do not feel comfortable in this life without certainty, even if they have a, quote/unquote, relationship with God. So talk to me about the difference between seeking certainty versus seeking relationship.

Niki Hardy: Well, I can relate to that. I feel a lot more calm and taken care of when I know that I know that I know and I'm certain about certain things. So I get it. But that feels to me about me reaching out for things that are head knowledge, things that I can control in a way. If I go in search of certainty in my own strength and I read more and I listen to what other people think, and even study the Bible and that kind of thing, it feels like I'm reaching for something that is attainable, and I'll either get there or I won't.

But when I'm reaching for God, it's an ever-evolving relationship that grows deeper. That he is more interested in my transformation than me hitting a certain goal and knowing certain things about him. And so it can be deeply frustrating because then you're like, I just want to know, Lord, you know, is it this or is it this? But he's like, Well, come on, you know, come with me. Let's just go deeper in our relationship.

And it makes me think of the wonderful Eugene Peterson paraphrase of the wonderful Matthew 11:28 verse, you know, "Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden." And in the paraphrase of The Message, it's put like this: Are you exhausted? Are you burnt out on religion? You know, come to me. Walk with me, talk with me, learn the unforced rhythms of grace and learn to live lightly and freely.

And when I am desperately driving and trying to find certainty, it's exhausting and I get burnt out on it. And what Jesus is saying is, Come on. Come to me and walk with me, talk with me. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace of our relationship. Live lightly and freely with me. And he never promised us answers. He never promised us that we would know and understand him. I mean, if he took Job on a celestial journey and Job didn't come away any clearer, I'm not sure I will.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. You are so right. Oh, gosh, Niki, this is so good. And I hope this becomes a permission slip for those of you who are listening who have been just seeking certainty and thinking that's where you find your security. Niki's just making it very clear, the security comes from the relationship. So let's just move into those unforced rhythms of grace.

All right, Niki, here's what we're going to do. We're going to get to our last question. But that doesn't mean it is a short. I probably saved the longest answer for you for our last question. Because your book is entitled, as you've mentioned, "God, Can We Chat?" And so in your book you share a conversation guide, and it's using the acronym CHAT, C-H-A-T. So I would love as an ending for this podcast -- I want us to end super practical with you unpacking all four of those elements so that we can begin to pray through our doubts and get closer to relationship with the Lord. So give us the CHAT acronym.

Niki Hardy: Yeah. Well, I made it super short and memorable with the CHAT acronym, because being a certain age, menopausal age, my gray matter is shrinking, so I needed it --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Niki Hardy: -- memorable and short.

But many people that I chat to, they're like, okay, I have reimagined my questions and my doubts as my faith's superpower, if you like, not its kryptonite. I can see that they hold power, but not to destroy my faith, to actually strengthen it. Okay, and I've reframed the doubts, the way I think about doubt and all that guilt and shame. And I know I can come to God, but what does that actually look like? How do I do that? How do I hear God's voice in the midst of it?

And so the CHAT conversation guide, or guided prayer format if you want to call it that, is a way for us to not just chat with God and talk to him, but hear his heart and his voice for us in the midst of our biggest questions. Not really -- not so we can find answers. And I say many times in the book, if you want this to be a Q&A with God, this isn't the book for you. If you are after answers, you know, put the book down. But this is a way of us growing closer to God.

And the C is to consider the facts. So we consider the facts. Because for many of us, there's an event or a series of events that is causing us to ask the question we're asking. And the whole last third of the book is dedicated to 15 to 20 questions that many of my readers wrote in and told me about, you know, like, Well, why are -- why am I hearing messages in church that purport to love and grace and then your church isn't living it out? Why did you answer her prayer and not mine? Is the Bible really your Word, God? There's so much I don't understand. You know, all these different questions.

And for many of us, we come to ask one of these questions because something has happened. And so this is consider the facts in a very journalistic, just-the-facts-ma'am kind of way. So if it was why did you answer her prayer and not mine, it might be that my friend and I have both been trying to have children and going through infantility issues, and we've both been praying, and she's now six months pregnant and I'm still struggling. Those are the facts, as hard as they are. And the CHAT guided prayer format is based on spiritual direction practices, but also cognitive behavioral therapy. So we look at the facts and then we honor the story we're telling ourselves.

H is for honor the story we're telling ourselves. Because often buried within those facts is a story that we keep repeating about ourselves or about God. Well, I just didn't pray hard enough. God doesn't love me as much as he loves her. It's probably because I slept around in college. Whatever the underlying nugget is. Because I really think that's what God wants to talk to us about, not whether or how he answers prayers and whose prayers he answers. He wants to get to these stories that we tell ourselves, because our brains make up these stories to find calm and peace.

And the crazy thing is they don't need to be true. These stories are -- most of the time they are lies. So that's where we say, oh, okay, now I've got to the bottom of what that story is. And I lead people through ways to kind of dig for what that nugget is.

And then the A of CHAT -- so we've considered the facts, honored the story -- is to ask God what he has to say. And this is where we say, Lord, would you pull up your celestial sofa. Can we have a cup of tea? And will you tell me what you want me to know or believe or understand when it comes to that story. Help me hear it with your ears. Help me hear what you have to say.

And then the T -- once we've come through that far and when we ask God what he has to say, we realize that these stories we're telling ourselves, 99.9% of them aren't correct. And then we need to team up with God ongoing. That's the last one, T. Because, you know, real life happens and we have to come out of our conversation with God in a way and go back to seeing our friend with her big, lovely, beautiful, swollen belly. And how are we going to navigate that? Will we team up with God ongoing? What would that look like? And so I guide people through these conversations with God, giving them examples and questions and time and space to journal and pray.

KC Wright: Our people, I hope you heard her loud and unclear. Doubt is not your kryptonite. It can be your superpower. You can take it all to God. And as Niki said, you can CHAT.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. CHAT, yes, C-H-A-T.

Okay, so here's a reminder. C, consider. Consider the facts like a journalist would. You just be honest and state the facts.

H, honor. Honor the story that you're telling yourself. Because often buried within is a repeated story about yourself or about God, you know, like he doesn't love me or it's because I sinned. And our brains can make up stories to help us bring peace and calm, yet those stories may not be true. So you got to just honor that story and bring it to God. Okay.

And then A, ask. Ask God what he has to say. As Niki would say, "God, let's have a cup of tea." Like, what do I need to know or understand about my story? So help me hear my story with your ears.

And then lastly as you're chatting, T is for team up. You're going to team up with God as you go forward, as you move ahead.

KC Wright: Niki's framework is so spot on, and it's so simple. You need her book. I need her book. You can get one at the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/372, or you can also enter to win one at Jennifer's Insta @jennrothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And we're also going to link you to the last episode that Niki was on with us because it was so good. And especially if you know somebody who's dealing with a disease like cancer, I mean -- oh, wow, it was super powerful. All right. The Show Notes are at 413podcast.com/372.

Oh, our friends, it's been a lovely time with you. And I just want you to know, KC and I believe in your God, and we believe in you, so we know that you can do this. You can CHAT with God. You can pray through your doubts, because why? You can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: You know, the last time I was in England, my friends got married. And I was trying to do a little sit-down comedy at the wedding reception --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, boy.

KC Wright: -- afterwards --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

KC Wright: -- and I was telling some jokes. And one British lady, I remember her well. I can see her right now in my mind. Her name was Rosemary. And she goes, "Oh, KC, settle down. You're causing a kerfuffle." And I said, "Hold on. Hold on just for a moment. What did you just say? Did you just say the word kerfuffle?" which means you're causing a ruckus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Which is --

KC Wright: But kerfuffle, from that moment till now, has been one of my favorite words in all the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's such a KC word. Such a -- it's so true.

KC Wright: "Oh, KC, settle down. You're causing a kerfuffle."