4:13 Podcast: Jennifer's Sons Interview Her - Part 2 [Episode 392]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends, Jennifer here. If you enjoy the 4:13 Podcast, you are going to love my new Hope of Heaven Tour. Kelly Minter will be with me, Point of Grace will be with me. It's one night, learning, laughing. We're going to bring the Hope of Heaven to earth today. I want you to come, so get your besties, get your tickets. Hopeofheaventour.com. And you might be interested in bringing it to your church or your city. Go to hopeofheaventour.com. All right, let's get to the podcast.

Well, hey, 4:13ers. For the last five years on The 4:13, and for the last 18 years at Fresh Grounded Faith Conferences, you have heard me Spill the Beans and interview guests. But today we're going to do something that we've not done before, and that is this. My two sons, Clayton and Connor, sat down with me for a conversation about the story behind the ministry and the heart behind the microphone. Well, in this two-part mini-series, you are going to hear a spontaneous, curious, revealing conversation about ministry, blindness, writing, speaking, and legacy. So last week you got to hear part one. So now settle in, here's part two.

All right, my friends, I'm glad you're back for the rest of this conversation. I saved you a seat with me and my boys sitting around the table. Now we're going to pick back up where they asked about C.S. Lewis, and then I got into growing up and not being a reader and my first exposure to audiobooks. Okay. We also talked about how depression led me to C.S. Lewis. There's a lot here, so settle in. Here we go.

Clayton Rothschild: You mentioned C.S. Lewis earlier. And I am curious to hear more about C.S. Lewis and who he is to you and what he means and where he came into your life, like, when and what stage of life were you in when you discovered C.S. Lewis, and why is he important to you today?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I had never read C.S. Lewis as an adult. I'd heard about him, I hadn't read him as a child, none of it. Because here's the bottom line. When I was a girl, I was not a big reader. I just wasn't. I was busy with other things and creativity. Okay, so that's one thing.

I was involved in school. I got good grades. I was naturally smart, and didn't know it, and had no interest in it because it was easy and it just wasn't that big of a deal. I enjoyed music and art. Okay, so that's that segment that will lead to this.

When -- Clayton, when you were born, I somehow got involved with the Division of Blind Services of the State of Florida. And in their intake interview, they asked me what kind of books I read, and I said I couldn't read -- because I couldn't read Braille. This was back in the day. I did not have access to audiobooks. And they set me up with the Talking Books Library.

And back in the day, it was chunky. Like, I'm holding my hands showing almost like this -- you know, a foot by a foot. I mean, it was a giant tape player with these giant buttons like a toddler would use. And they would send these tapes to me of different books. Well, because when I was interviewed and, "What kind of books do you like?" I said, "I have no idea. Just send me everything."

And so the very first book I listened to -- it was not C.S. Lewis, but it's going to lead to this. The very first book I listened to -- and if somebody is literary, they will go, "Are you kidding me?" It's like your first cup of coffee being Starbucks. Okay? It was hefty. It was Henry James' "Portrait Of A Lady." Henry James was a writer in the late 1800s. This is a long book and very sophisticated. Okay.

Well, something happened. I came alive when I listened to it. I learned that I probably had dealt with more mental boredom in my life than I realized. I came alive. So that began me on this book of reading. And because I cut my teeth on classic literature and dead authors, I was just hooked.

All right. Fast forward now to I'm in my 40s, and I went through a season of depression that was extremely dismantling. And because -- I would read Scripture -- because at this point I did have audio Bible, et cetera. It just wasn't there, and I was beginning to fall deeply into this season of doubt. And I knew C.S. Lewis' stories, I had read some of him at that point. And I liked him, but I didn't really get it.

And I really believe that God led me to C.S. Lewis. Because I literally thought, he used to be an atheist; then he became a theist, meaning that God did exist; but then he had this conversion experience with Christ which was so genuine and so un-walk down the aisle at a Baptist Church. Like, everything about his life, because -- just really, I got very curious. God used him as an authoritative guide in my life to bring me back. When I read his stuff, it also came alive and something came alive in me. And he was used by God to bring me back to a very -- not just an intellectually sound faith, but an emotionally comfortable faith, comfortable with the mystery of faith.

The whole thing was a total package for me. I kind of found someone in my life that I was like, oh, my gosh, I get you. Like, if you knew me, you would get me. Now, he's a million times smarter, but, like, I got him. Like, I felt like we had walked down the same path and we could walk together. And so at that point is when I started reading absolutely everything he wrote.

Clayton Rothschild: Have you read everything he's wrote?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Not a lot of his academic stuff, because it is just too academic. And I appreciate his medieval stuff and -- because he was a medieval scholar. I appreciate it, but I haven't read all of it.

Clayton Rothschild: It's not the same path that you're walking now --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Clayton Rothschild: -- and you're not --

Jennifer Rothschild: But I've read everything that inspired him. Like, he liked Norse mythology. I've read Norse mythology. He liked George MacDonald. I've read all George MacDonald. You know what I'm saying? I dived deep --

Clayton Rothschild: Interesting.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and it has made a difference in my life.

Connor Rothschild: That's awesome.

Clayton Rothschild: C.S. Lewis is intellectual without being cold, and he's emotionally attached without being, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Academic and aloof.

Clayton Rothschild: Yeah, without -- yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: And that's really interesting. What was, other than his fiction, your first exposure, I guess, that made you have that aha moment? Was it "Mere Christianity" --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Clayton Rothschild: -- or was it a different title?

Jennifer Rothschild: It was "Surprised by Joy." "Surprised by Joy" is his spiritual memoir, and he basically talked through his childhood up to just how he found Christ. But he was super honest about all the things he experienced and how he grappled.

But one of the things that first caught me in the first chapter, he talked about being a votary of the blue flower. And when I got to the Heaven study -- fast forward in my life -- I remembered that phrase. And I began to research it and realized, you know, that he always had this ache for eternity, this ache for transcendence. Blue flower in romantic German literature represents longing, beauty, that which is greatly other.

And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's it. You know, I've always had the seeds of the blue flower in my own spirit and didn't know that's what it was. And then, of course, I associated that with Heaven. So, yeah, there's just been myriad -- myriad things about C.S. Lewis. And then, of course, as I read his Narnia, my deep appreciation for his unbelievable skill, unbelievable skill to communicate huge truths in small ways.

But one of the things that has inspired me, because I've studied him as a human, as a person, as a writer, as a believer, you know, and getting to go to Oxford, he genuinely loved people. He cared about them. He was willing to even sacrifice his reputation. Like, Narnia, he was a college -- an Oxford Don, and he's writing children's books. And he was highly disrespected among academic circles for doing that. But he was ready to take the reputational hit because he cared so much about the message, and he had found the truth and wanted to express the truth.

You know, he was paying for children's colleges, he was -- every letter he received from a reader, he took the time to write back. As a man, he influenced me because I knew he was 100% committed to what God had called him to be. Not just to do, but to call him to be, and that has influenced me.

Clayton Rothschild: So as you consider your career up to at this point, and the audience you have, the type of books you've written, do you see the next phase of your career taking on more of a philosophical, theologic -- more C.S. Lewis-like --

Connor Rothschild: Or do you wish?

Clayton Rothschild: -- or do you tend to stay accessible?

Connor Rothschild: Yeah. Like, if not you plan on it, is there a part of you that longs for that, like, you kind of wonder if you can flex those muscles?

Clayton Rothschild: Just to go nerd out?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love to nerd out. Well, here's what I've learned. No. I believe it is still my calling to make accessible God's Word, you know, and the truth. And God's truth is embedded in everything. It's embedded in literature, it's embedded in philosophy, it's embedded in nature. So it is my -- I know that is my calling, to continue to make God's Word accessible to women. And because of the way I'm wired, I always want to show how it's all connected. Okay? So that's one thing I know I will continue to do.

And I'm willing to sacrifice the being known as, oh, wow, she's so smart -- because there's so many who are out there who are smarter. But I'm willing to sacrifice -- I don't have that -- whereas one day -- okay. I don't have the need to prove like maybe ten years ago I did. Like, I want them to know I really know this stuff. Well, who cares what I know? It's about what I'm making known. And I've learned that, and I'm -- there's much more freedom in caring less about what gratifies me and my reputation when I know I can fulfill a calling that I'm known to -- okay, so that's one thing.

Secondly, would I still want to write like that on C.S. Lewis? Yes. But you know what? I get just as gratified going and learning and then writing out all my notes and writing my thoughts about it. I don't have to publish it is my point. I really don't. I don't care about that.

Connor Rothschild: And do you make a hobby out of that? Like, how do you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes. Every --

Connor Rothschild: Do you just kind of write as kind of a thought process?

Jennifer Rothschild: I do. Everything I read, I write about, just for my own -- because then I learn what I know.

Connor Rothschild: I'd like to read the archives of that. That'd be cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: The other thing I think I will do someday is write my memoir. Which is very different from an autobiography. And so I've already got some files going that I'm playing with and trying to figure out. But I think I will do that. That will be very gratifying.

Connor Rothschild: And you described that the first book that you encountered from C.S. Lewis -- what was the name of it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: Well, it was his memoir, right?

Connor Rothschild: But you described it as a spiritual memoir?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: Does that differ in that it has a little more infusion of kind of like spiritual principles, or what is -- how would you describe the difference?

Jennifer Rothschild: He calls it a spiritual memoir. Or his early life, a memoir of his early life, something like that. But it is spiritual in that everything is spiritual. You know, that his first longing when he sees a little garden in a tin can lid, he has this longing for eternity. That's spiritual, though he has no idea what that means when he's eight years old or six years old.

So, yeah, when I write a memoir, I am trying to discover -- because you always want one angle, you know. And I don't what my angle would be yet. But the difference in a memoir and an autobiography is an autobiography, I'm just sitting down from -- I was born here, I'm dying here, and this is everything in between. That's the biography.

A memoir, you get to pick out parts of your life that, for whatever reason, are significant to you that are communicating a message to a reader. You never tell them what the message is, you communicate it through the choices of what you include in your story. And I'm looking forward to that challenge. I think that will be a fun, interesting thing to write.

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And speaking of great, let's get back to the conversation.

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Clayton Rothschild: So as you look back on your life and, like, a memoir, you know, potentially that you'd write someday, do you identify yourself through your blindness significantly, that that would be a common theme, or do you think that there are aspects and elements of your life that transcend blindness that you want to talk about?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good question. Yeah, because you can't separate blindness.

So one thing I've already written -- and I couldn't figure out why I was so attracted to this. But I think it might communicate what the real plot and subplot is. When I was a little girl, Dad's mom and dad, Mama and Papa, lived in Clearwater, Florida. And they lived kind of on a lake and they had this stone bench under a -- it was called a Kapok tree, I think. It had these big hard shells. I don't remember what it was called. But anyway, she had a box of books in her garage. And, of course, I could see then.

So I pulled out this Hans Christian Andersen fairytale book. It was really thick. And I remember as a girl, I read this story called "One Blind Daughter." This was far before I ever knew I would be blind. And the basic premise of the story was -- she's the blind daughter, but somehow she has to go on this grand journey and she has to somehow bring something back -- I don't remember all the details -- to save her father. And it was this whole concept of -- she does it. And, like, she's the only one who can almost, you know.

Okay. When I was writing about that and how I recalled it, I thought, I think that's more the plot of my life, that there's been this overt higher calling, deeper purpose, stronger drive, and yet there's this subplot of blindness that you would think would disrupt it and be the detour, when really it's become the path. And it's the thing that has always been the challenge, the drive, the ally, the issue, the interruption, but it's always been the thing that's made the higher path possible of whatever that is that my calling and attainment is. And so I think that's where -- that's, I think, what I will communicate. I'm kind of glad you asked me --

Clayton Rothschild: That's super profound.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because that gave me a chance to answer it --

Connor Rothschild: That's cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to see what I thought.

Clayton Rothschild: Yeah. That's very profound. And not necessarily what I would expect, because -- well, I don't think of you as, oh, my blind mother. But it is a big part of your life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: But I actually would kind of expect the answer that you gave, which is, hey, this is a big part of my life, it's a tool towards this greater, actually, story of my life. It's not the main story. It informs the story, though. That's what I heard you say at least. I don't know if that's accurate.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's accurate.

Connor Rothschild: Yeah, that's cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I think it's accurate.

Connor Rothschild: I'm curious just a little more on the topic of writing. I think we've all known that C.S. Lewis has been your go-to.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: He's number one on the intellectual podium, on the kind of inspiration and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: I'm curious if you were to put a second and third place up there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

Connor Rothschild: Is it easy? Does it come to mind immediately? Do you have to labor a little more to think about, like, authors that have been very influential for you in that second and third position? Or maybe just second position, if you have any thoughts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, one of the things that I have done is -- I don't read very often living authors, because I'm terrified of plagiarizing. Okay? So I don't read within my genre, my friends. Now, I will read parts of their books. Or if they ask me to endorse, of course I'll read that. You know what I'm saying. But otherwise, I don't read a lot of it.

Now, I will read a lot of Christian living books and I will read a lot of fiction. And there are some fiction authors that I marvel at their ability to tell a story. I marvel at their ability to write sentences. I like Hemingway's -- dead author -- I like Hemingway's short sentences. I think F. Scott Fitzgerald's sentences are unbelievable.

There is a biographer, who lives today, named Ellen Vaugn, who is an exceptional storyteller, and she does this beautiful job of giving information and facts and making you feel like you can see it with your eyes. So she influences me. And I like to study -- those are the kind of writers I like to study and see how they do it.

Connor Rothschild: Interesting. Speaking a little on fiction and autobiography, because those -- I mean, really you could kind of split this into three genres, I feel like. There's nonfiction, there's fiction, and then there's the art of autobiography or biography.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Connor Rothschild: That's kind of a whole different genre, I feel like.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whole different.

Connor Rothschild: Technically it's nonfiction, of course. What are the transferrable skills -- like, you admire those authors, you speak about you're impressed by their short sentences. Do you think that they improve you as a writer in a very material way? Like, are your short sentences better as a result or -- how much is kind of lost in translation between a fiction book, and how that is written, and a nonfiction book?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah. And how do you know what you're just observing and what you're going to eventually absorb, right? It's hard to know. Because that's, I think, the insidious effect of influence. You kind of can't tell sometimes when you grabbed it. Which is why I say I'm careful about reading living authors who are in my genre, because I'm afraid I'll grab it and think it's my idea.

I do think that I -- I never read first to study it. And I do think anyone who's a writer has to be a reader. When I have met women who say, "I want to write a book," and I ask, "Well, what kind of books do you read?" "Well, I don't really like to read." And I think, well, you'll never be a writer. You'll never be a writer. Because if you don't have the discipline or interest to read, you will not have the discipline and ability to write.

Connor Rothschild: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so that's two things.

But I know for me -- like, I will read Anne Lamott. She is one of the best living writers out there. And the reason I enjoy reading her is some books are like music. Just like you enjoy a song the first time, you love it more the second time. The third time you might notice what key it's in, the fourth time you might notice, oh, wow, I love how the strings come in on the third verse. That's how I read Anne Lamott. And so I will read her stuff over and over and over because I will study it.

And I will see why did I feel that emotion on this sentence? And then I'll look back to see what she did. Did she tell me how to feel? Did she draw a word picture? Did she -- was it humor? So I can't give you a lot of one-to-one transferables because I'm not sure if I have figured that out. I could, you know, show you -- I will write down some things that I think, oh, that was a good sentence, and here's why.

Sometimes I will write down quotes from books, that I don't even know why I like them. And then I'll go back and study them and think why does that -- what about that quote hits me? Why does that matter? Why is that significant to me? Why do I remember?

Now, I will say one other thing with writing. I do carefully write sticky statements into my books.

In other words, I may have told a story, I may have made the point, but then I will literally summarize it into what you could tweet and you could remember that's sticky. Like, "It may not be well with your circumstances, but it can be well with your soul." Boom, sticky statement. They'll remember that. They'll remember how they felt about the story and they'll see that picture in their mind. They'll kind of remember the truth that I just told them, and they'll often remember the statement.

Connor Rothschild: That's very cool.

I'm curious, because you don't read as many living authors -- and I bet a lot of living authors do read all of their peers --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: -- it probably is this kind of, like, language that is adopted and -- a lot of similarities. Not to say they're --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there may be, uh-huh.

Connor Rothschild: -- plagiarizing. But have you ever heard, like, "Your books are very different," or, "Your writing is different"? Like, is there any indication of that based on that? Because it is kind of interesting to, like, mostly read people from 100-plus years ago or something.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: Maybe it's not 100. Fifty years ago, and use that as kind of most of the inspiration for how you write today. I wonder if other people have a different writing style or if that's -- if you ever heard anything like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I haven't. But I will say this. People can read something of mine and say, "I knew that was your writing."

But I will tell you one of the detriments of reading a lot of dead authors and living in the 2000s and trying to communicate to women. Early on my writing was too stiff. I've gone back and read --

Connor Rothschild: Yeah, what's an example?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- "God Is Just Not Fair," and I'm like, Jennifer, chill out. So that was also partly because I was trying to prove myself. I'll be very honest. I think I didn't have the intellectual humility at that point to realize you don't have to be smart. You need to communicate a message. It's not about what you know, it's about what they need to know. And so some of my word choice was so stiff, and I don't appreciate that. So if I could ever rewrite that, same content, same stories. It's still warm. It's not that it's not warm.

But I'm like -- I also am a big believer, if there's a word that has three syllables, and you can use one, you use one syllable. Whereas back in that day, oh, no. If I could prove I knew a three-syllable word, I was going to use the three-syllable word. And that wasn't necessary.

Now, I'm not saying you should never use three-syllable words. I'm not saying that. But your motive cannot be, "Let me show you what I know." Your motive has to be, "Here's what I want you to know." And you need to speak the language of the person who's reading the book.

Clayton Rothschild: What do you think your audience needs to be hearing now? Are you mindful of current moderns from a cultural perspective or from your audience? You know, what are they hungry for? What are you looking to write about in the next decade, if you've identified that yet?

Jennifer Rothschild: I think for me it is biblical literacy combined with biblical love. Because I think there is a deficit of biblical literacy in that we know about the Bible, we know what the Bible says, we know what the pastor says about the Bible, but to equip women to be able to read the Bible themselves, know how to study it themselves and -- so to have the literacy, because that will change their life.

But then not just to stop there so we all lead these legalistic perfect lives, but skip that part and go from literacy to love. Because when you really -- when I can help women love the Bible, then their literacy will grow. The more their literacy grows, the more their love grows. And it's this virtuous cycle that then they can pass down through generations. And so, you know, that would be my preferred legacy.

Clayton Rothschild: Cool.

Connor Rothschild: Very cool.

Clayton Rothschild: Excellent. Well, thank you.

Connor Rothschild: Those are my questions. How do you normally end the 4:13 Podcast? We can do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: With the hokiest way you've ever ended it.

Connor Rothschild: Yeah. Do we need to --

Jennifer Rothschild: I say remember, no matter what you face --

Connor Rothschild: No matter what you face.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- no matter how you feel --

Connor Rothschild: No matter how you feel.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you can do all things --

Connor Rothschild: You can do all things.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- through Christ who strengthens you.

Connor Rothschild: Through Christ who strengthens you.

Clayton Rothschild: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Clayton Rothschild: I can.

Connor Rothschild: And you can.

Clayton Rothschild: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can. Right? It's so goofy.

Clayton Rothschild: No. That's good. That's great.

Connor Rothschild: That's cool. All right. Well, we can consider that wrapped. Well, thanks for doing that, Mom. That was really special.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you.

Connor Rothschild: That was cool. That was fun.

Jennifer Rothschild: I appreciate it, because I never know what I think until I talk. So that's helpful.

Connor Rothschild: Sure enough.

Clayton Rothschild: Thanks.

Connor Rothschild: Signing off.

Jennifer Rothschild: They thanked me? I mean, I'm the one who is so thankful to God for these men. I learned so much my whole life for being their mother. I've learned so much from them, and I'm so thankful. I'm a grateful mom. Anyway, like I said, now I know what I think.

So again today we talked about a lot of things and a lot of people who have made an impact on me. So I'm going to have links to everything and everyone that you might be curious about on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/392.

So I'm not going to end this thing by repeating our beloved and kind of, let's be honest, goofy ending that my sons were good sports to already recite. So until next week -- you know the drill -- through Christ, whatever it is, oh, my friends, just do it. Okay, we'll see you next week. KC will be back with me on The 4:13. Have a great week!