4:13 Podcast: Can I Live Like Heaven Is Real? With Philip De Courcy [Episode 388]

Philip De Courcy: Our aspiration should be heaven. A man was asked one day, you know, "Do you expect to get to heaven?" He said, "I already live there." And there's that sense that I've got to have heaven on my mind. Heaven can't wait. It's not just a destination -- which it is, we started the broadcast -- it's a place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Philip De Courcy: But it's an orientation. It's a mindset. And as a Christian, I've got to bring that mindset to everything I ought to do. It's an aspiration. It's a longing. It should shape my thinking. It should affect the way I think about money, right? Because my treasure is in heaven. It should affect the way I pray, because we're told to pray, "Your Kingdom come." It should affect the way I sorrow and suffer because my suffering is not to be compared to the glory that awaits me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sometimes when we think of heaven, we might imagine, you know, like, chubby cherubs and pearly gates and glowing halos and endless, endless, endless singing. But if that is all that heaven really is, what hope and relevance does it even have for us today? Well, fortunately, a biblical view of eternity can give us far more, way more.

So today's guest, author and pastor Philip De Courcy, is going to reveal the impact that a heavenly mindset can have on your everyday, right now life. You are going to hear engaging stories -- with, by the way, the most lovely Irish accent -- you're going to get theological insights, and, best of all, you are going to get a deep knowledge of Scripture. So let's get a very clear understanding of our inheritance so that we can live the hope of heaven right now.

Here we go, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is my Seeing Eye Guy, my friends, KC Wright, with a little bit of sinuses going on. Did you notice? Our friends who have known you for a while --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- they heard just a little bit.

KC Wright: A little bit.

Jennifer Rothschild: A little bit. I think it makes you sound manly.

KC Wright: Oh, thank you. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway, I'm Jennifer, and I'm here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. And it's just two friends here in the closet, with one topic -- one of my favorites, by the way -- and zero stress, because we are talking about heaven.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: I've written a Bible study on heaven. You know it's one of my favorite subjects.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Heaven.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's not just for someday; it's for this day. So you're going to love hearing from Philip De Courcy.

But before you do, you've got to hear from my friend KC, because he and I have been talking, talking, talking. I finally said, "You just need to stop" --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we need to tell our friends, Because what you do not know, my people, over the holidays -- well, right before Christmas --

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and then we've had holidays -- it's been busy -- KC went to Vietnam on a mission trip. So besides all the beautiful spiritual fruit -- okay, you know the man. It's funny.

All right. So let's start -- tell them why you went to Vietnam. Give us just a brief overview of the beautiful spiritual fruit. But, like, I just want us to go to the funny things like you getting your suit tailored and how you preached and what they ate. All right, go.

KC Wright: Okay. Loved it, loved it, loved it. It was a trip of a lifetime. Ten days in Vietnam. The flight over there is a humdinger. Sixteen hours --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- from Los Angeles to Hong Kong. Then, wait, you're hopping on another plane to go to Hi Chi Minh City. Anyway, it was magical, it was phenomenal. One hundred said yes to Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah.

KC Wright: Yes. You know, with me, everything is a comedy show.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

KC Wright: I mean, there's just never a boring moment in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you preached?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you had an interpreter?

KC Wright: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you didn't wear normal clothes when you preached, evidently?

KC Wright: So it is custom over there, you do not enter the House of the Lord with shoes on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Well, I love that idea.

KC Wright: So you must be in socks. Now, if I would have known that I was going to be preaching in socks, I would have packed some nicer socks, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: I mean, I just packed some boring socks because I didn't think anybody was going to be looking at my feet. But they are so sweet over there. I love them so much. They love to laugh. The Vietnamese love to laugh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, no wonder they love you, because you're funny.

KC Wright: So we connected instantly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: So you would kind of tell a one-liner, like, "Hey, good thing I'm leaving Tuesday because I've ate my weight in mango." And then the interpreter would repeat that and then the church would laugh, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's funny.

KC Wright: And then some of the pastors found out that I was single, and they were trying to find me a wife in the congregation.

Jennifer Rothschild: A little cute Vietnamese wife.

KC Wright: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you didn't come home with a wife?

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: You came home with a suit though?

KC Wright: I did.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Tell us about the suit.

KC Wright: So it is a tradition with a lot of people -- and I just learned this -- that when you go over there, make sure you get fitted for a suit. Because a suit there, probably valued with U.S. dollars is over $1,000, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But you can get a suit there for $100.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's amazing. And they're amazing seamstresses.

KC Wright: They're beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Right. So I got fitted for a suit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: I ate things I never thought I would eat.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like?

KC Wright: A lot of -- I watched a lot of people eat snail. I never did that. They were popping snail like I pop popcorn. Not this guy.

But I love the Vietnamese coffee. I brought J.R. home some coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And some Vietnamese tea --

KC Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I'm very excited about. I haven't even opened it yet because I'm still eating my way through Christmas leftovers and gifts, like chocolate and coffees from that. So I haven't even opened your Vietnamese yet.

KC Wright: Another sweet thing they did is every time I would preach, they would present me with a bouquet of flowers. Well, you know, as a guy, no one's ever given me flowers.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's beautiful.

KC Wright: You just don't do that here. But they want to honor you and love you with a bouquet of flowers.

They're so hungry for the Word of God. They worship like I've never seen people worship before. The children stand in the aisles of the church, hands lifted, weeping and crying. The hunger for God is incredible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: So God is moving in Vietnam, and I will go back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you will.

KC Wright: They love to laugh, I love to laugh; they love Jesus, I love Jesus. But next time I'm bringing an empty suitcase to bring back more treasures for the people that I love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? Well, and who knows, you might need another suit.

KC Wright: Yeah. Right.

And one thing, one last thing. Like I said, my life is never boring. But when we were coming back into the country, we got through customs again. And when we hit security, of all the people's tickets to get flagged, mine got flagged.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

KC Wright: So I got pulled into the back. My team actually --

Jennifer Rothschild: But the way -- and which country was this?

KC Wright: This was in Vietnam.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: I was leaving Vietnam.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you're in the Ho Chi Minh City airport?

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: And I'm leaving. Yeah. So my entire team moves forward, but I'm being held back. My team was concerned. I was covered with the peace of God. Anyway, long story short --

Jennifer Rothschild: Why'd they pull you over?

KC Wright: Because I had an iPad and a ridiculous amount of magnets I bought for family and friends, and the magnets with the iPad was triggering the alarm, whatever it was, saying that there was a battery in my bag. Anyway, they laughed --

Jennifer Rothschild: Only KC.

KC Wright: -- they laughed it off and sent me back to my group. But when I returned to my group, I'm telling you, they were having a prayer meeting. They thought KC's going down.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

KC Wright: This is the end for him.

Jennifer Rothschild: He's going straight from --

KC Wright: They thought I was being interrogated, but it was just magnets and an iPad.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that makes so much sense.

KC Wright: Once again, never boring in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Never boring. Never boring.

KC Wright: But I can't wait to go back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I can't wait to see you in your nice new suit.

KC Wright: Yes, I'm going to wear it on Easter Sunday and preach.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, you're going to look so nice. A man in a good suit, that's a good look. That's what I'm saying.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I remember when Phil and I were dating, and he worked at the university and they had to still at that point wear, like, tie and -- I just thought he was so cute in his tie and his dress shirts and his suits. Mmm. Anyway...

KC Wright: You got to look sharp.

Jennifer Rothschild: You got to look sharp, that's right. A man in a suit is a good thing.

All right. Well, let's get on to this conversation with Philip, because, oh, my goodness, you know this -- because this is one of my favorite subjects. But I love this guy. He is charming. He just has the joy. When I got to go to Ireland, there's just a lightness and a joy just as a culture. He's got it. You can hear it in his voice. Anyway...

So let's introduce Philip De Courcy.

KC Wright: Philip De Courcy is the senior pastor of Kindred Community Church and a dynamic speaker on the national media program "Know The Truth." Born in Belfast, Northern Ireland, Philip became an engineer and also spent six years as a reserve police officer in North Belfast, where civil tension and terrorism were commonplace. After being called to full-time ministry, he pastored a church just outside of Belfast and then came to the United States where he graduated from the Master's Seminary and served in churches in Southern California and Central Ohio. He and his wife, June, have three grown daughters and one son-in-law.

Okay. Get ready for a great conversation. And you are going to love his accent.

Jennifer Rothschild: You will.

KC Wright: So here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's start with this, Philip: definition. Because so many people have so many different definitions of what heaven is. So tell me, what is heaven?

Philip De Courcy: Yeah. Well, before we go there, Jennifer, thank you for having me on the program. I appreciate you, your ministry. I know you've written on this subject yourself, and so I'm glad you've added to the church's knowledge of what lies ahead.

In terms of a definition of heaven, I think at the baseline, heaven's a place. In some sense, heaven's an orientation. But at the end of the day, in John 14:1-6, Jesus tells us, "I go to prepare a place for you." And I think we need to, you know, nail that one down to the floor. I think people think that heaven's a mindset, heaven's an experience on earth perhaps. But biblically, heaven is a place.

Paul talks about the third heaven, which I think is the heaven where God dwells and where the departed live until a new heaven and a new earth. And I think it's something we need to underscore. I think throughout church history at times, the church has been affected by Greek philosophy rather than biblical theology, where there was a discounting of the body, a discounting of the material, where things are ethereal and spiritual. But ultimately, heaven is a place where God dwells, where his throne is, where the angels abide and serve God, where departed souls of the saints are with God. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

And then ultimately -- let me get into this, Jennifer. I think this is something I wanted to get in towards the end of the book when I talk about the new heaven and the new earth ultimately. So there's a present heaven right now. And in some senses, we could say it's a temporary heaven, because the ultimate heaven and the eternal experience of God's people will be back on earth, according to Revelation 21 to 22, where God will renew this earth, remake it, and we will be back on this earth in a resurrected body, exploring it, enjoying God. Almost Eden restored, Eden regained.

So I'll stop there. But fundamentally, heaven's a place where God resides, where the saints will dwell. It's a place marked by peace, joy, holiness, by the affluent presence of God and his glory, and it's a place I want to get to sooner than later.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. The more you know about it, the more you understand why Paul says, "I long to be there." I long to be there.

Philip De Courcy: It's better, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, it's better.

Philip De Courcy: It's better to be with Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's better.

So here's the question, Pastor. Because what I heard you say is there is a present heaven. And I know, you know, people smarter than us call it the intermediate state. And then there's the eternal state of that, like, forever heaven of the new earth. But what does that mean for someone right now who just lost someone they love? They were a believer in Christ, they were in Christ, and they just died. So where are they right now, and are they alive in that place?

Philip De Courcy: Yeah. I deal with that in a chapter in the book. I call it "During the Interval." That is the interval between now and the eternal state of the world to come. And Paul addresses that. If someone's listening today, my heart breaks for you as your heart breaks. And it's not unspiritual to weep. It's not unspiritual to ache for the presence of a loved one. Paul doesn't dismiss that in 1 Thessalonians 4 when he addresses those who have loved ones who have fallen asleep in Jesus. But he would remind them, "We sorrow, but not as those without hope." And then towards the end of that Chapter 4, verse 18, "Comfort one another with these words."

So that's the beauty. We will sorrow, we feel the sting and the thievery of death in this present experience. But as Christians, if we're in Christ, if we have embraced the Gospel of Christ's atoning death and Christ's physical resurrection and him as the only mediator between God and man, then we have hope in the Gospel because Jesus is the resurrection and the life, and though a man die, yet shall he live.

Jennifer, I love that story about D.L. Moody, the Billy Graham before there was a Billy Graham. And he said to his congregation one day in Chicago, "Someday you're going to read in the papers that D.L. Moody is dead. Don't believe it. D.L. Moody will be more alive than he's ever been before."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: So to your question are our loved ones alive, yes. And sadly, there's a dark side to that. The dead are alive whether with Christ or without Christ, whether in heaven or in hell. There's a consciousness. There's an eternal conscious punishment for those who rejected Christ and trembled underfoot the blood of the cross, but there's an eternal conscious joy for those who are in Christ.

In the chapter -- we'll not get into the depth of this, but I'll hopefully whet the appetite. Whereas -- my mother died just a couple of years ago and it got me thinking a lot more about heaven. And she's with the Lord. So Paul talks in 2 Corinthians 5 quickly about three states. He talks about we're clothed. That's our present existence. We've got a body and we've got a soul. The body is subject to death, the soul is eternal. And when we die, there's a separation takes place where the body is put to rest in the grave. The cemetery means a place of sleeping. The body is kind of laid down like someone's sleeping to be resurrected.

The spirit goes to be with Christ. Absent from the body at death, present --immediately present. We don't believe in soul sleep, we don't believe in purgatory, we don't believe in some intermediate existence. It's earth to heaven or it's earth to hell. And that's the reality Jesus talks about, right? Two roads, two destinies, Matthew 7.

But you go from being clothed with the body to being unclothed. So I believe our loved ones are in -- their spirits are with Christ. Some theologians wonder, are they given a temporary body? I'm not going to fight that, but I don't see that. I don't see that promised anywhere. I think Paul says we're unclothed, we're naked. So the spirit is with Christ. And again, that doesn't mean they're less than what they were. Our identity's certainly tied to our corporality, but it is not the fullness of who we are. And God is spirit, without a body, until the incarnations, and God's real. So you can be in a real state as a spirit.

And then they'll be clothed again or clothed further. That's when Jesus returns with those who the spirits that are with him, perfected and returns, and their bodies are resurrected, 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15, and now they're in that perfect state.

So long answer, but, hey, our loved ones are alive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We need that.

Philip De Courcy: If they're in Christ, they're with Christ. And they are enjoying his presence and they've no desire to come back, they have simply a desire for us to join them.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I've often thought how Lazarus must have felt when Jesus called out Lazarus, "Come forth." I wonder if he thought, No. Really? Don't make me.

Philip De Courcy: It's true --

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't make me come back.

Philip De Courcy: -- you know. That's a great thought. And he came back to die again --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

Philip De Courcy: -- you know. Poor man had to die twice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: But again, a wonderful illustration of what we will enjoy. But it's a good thought. You know, it's a bit like -- again, Paul got a taste -- right? -- of heaven and saw things that no man should see. And you can sense, you know, the struggle as God humbled him back on earth, waiting. And in some sense when Paul says it's far better --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: -- he should know because he got a peek.

Jennifer Rothschild: He should. He did. He did.

Well, and what's interesting to me is -- you know, as I ask you these questions about heaven, I'm reflecting a lot, of course, of what the believer in Christ wonders about heaven. But here's the thing, Pastor. You write in your book that most people, humanity in general, has this innate belief in heaven. So talk to us about that. Because it's not just believers in Christ who thinks there's something that comes next. You contend that all humanity does.

Philip De Courcy: Absolutely. I talk about that in a chapter on John 14. You know, it's innate to the human nature. There's a desire for a heavenly state. There's a sense that this can't be it. There's a James Bond movie called "The World is Not Enough," and I've always kind of been -- you know, thought about that titling. People know this world is not enough. It's not.

And in the book I talk about three things that kind of fuel our desire for heaven and inform it. It's God's Word to us. Thankfully God has pulled back the curtain. I mean, 25% of the Bible is prophetic. The Bible is historic, but it's also prophetic. God wants us to understand there's a world beyond this world.

One of the striking words in the Book of Revelation is "behold" or "see." God wants us to see something beyond what our eyes can view, right? We walk by faith, not by sight. So God's Word to us fuels that. Where we read the Scriptures, the God who came from heaven wants us to be with him in heaven, and he helps us see something of what we can look forward to.

Then there's God's witness in us. The Holy Spirit has been given to us, according to Jesus, as an engagement ring, a sign of, hey, the bridegroom -- I'm coming back for my bride, and the spirit within you causes you to desire heaven and desire me.

And then as I've said, God's world around us. This is a fallen world. It's a sin-cursed world, it's marked by death, it's less than what it was. And we know innately Ecclesiastes 3, God has put eternity in our heart. You and I were talking before the broadcast here about my upbringing in Belfast. C.S. Lewis, he -- I'm paraphrasing. But somewhere C.S. Lewis talks about if we have got desires that can't be fulfilled in this life, it's got to be a harbinger or a telltale that maybe we're made for something more than this life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: And the world around us -- I was going to say I love it. I appreciate Romans 8. We groan longing for the liberation.

And so God's Word to us, God's witness in us, God's world around us. But it all fuels this sense that, hey, there's a life beyond this life. That's why I call the book "Life After Life."

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I love, by the way. I love that phrase, "Life After Life."

And, you know, Pastor, as you describe that too, speaking of your kindred, C.S. Lewis from Belfast, he also talks about just these desires that we feel, as you quoted, but he talks about, like, a baby doesn't have a -- a baby's hunger doesn't mean necessarily that baby's going to be fed immediately, but it's a representation that food exists. And so as we've got this ache in this life for something more, it represents that something more exists. Even that groan of the beauty of this world, it's an imperfect beauty, but it makes us ache for more. So, yeah, it's all this -- they're all pointing. They're pointing to the reality.

Philip De Courcy: That's why the New Testament talks about looking, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: I mean, the first chapter in my book is called "Heaven Can't Wait," and it's based on -- all my chapters are based on an exposition of a passage because I'm committed to biblical exposition. It's Colossians 3:1-4. Seek those things that are above. Set your affection. You know, Jennifer, our longing, our aspiration should be heaven.

A man was asked one day, you know, "Do you expect to get to heaven?" He said, "I already live there." And there's that sense that I've got to have heaven on my mind. Heaven can't wait. It's not just a destination -- which it is, we started the broadcast -- it's a place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Philip De Courcy: But it's an orientation. It's a mindset. And as a Christian, I've got to bring that mindset to everything I ought to do. It's an aspiration, it's a longing. It should shape my thinking. It should affect the way I think about money -- right? -- because my treasure is in heaven. It should affect the way I pray because we're told to pray, "Your kingdom come." It should affect the way I sorrow and suffer because my suffering is not to be compared to the glory that awaits me.

And it should affect my appetite. I mean, Philippians 3:17-21, Paul talks about, you know, there are those whose God is their -- their belly is their God. They've got earthly appetites. But we don't. We desire the heavenly, the lasting, the eternal. It should affect the way we bury our dead. 1 Thessalonians 4, "Don't sorrow." Christian funerals should be marked by dignity, mourning, but there's got to be an element of celebration. We're not like the Greeks, we're not like the Romans, we're not like the pagans where we stare into a grave, a hole, and think that's it, that's where it ends.

And then it affects the way we face persecution, because we're willing to suffer for righteousness sake knowing that God will reward us, Matthew 5:12. And I could go on, but the point is this. Heaven, while it's a destination, it's a mindset. It's something that should, you know, shape our thinking and our living.

My dad's still alive, Jennifer. He's 92. He's a deacon, was a deacon for many -- he's not a preacher. But I heard my father preach a message once, and I've never forgot it. Here's a verse maybe your listeners have never thought much about. I don't know if you've reflected on this. It's Jeremiah 51:50, where the exiles of Israel who were in Babylon were told this as they worship and prayed towards Jerusalem. There's a little phrase that says, "Let Jerusalem come into your mind." And my father preached that very devotionally one day at my church in Ohio. And he said, "There's coming a new Jerusalem and a new world, and we've got to let Jerusalem come into our mind."

We're exiles. We're pilgrims. And I'm bothered -- maybe a subject you and I can talk about briefly. Why is it, Jennifer, the church doesn't let Jerusalem come into its mind? Why aren't we thinking more about heaven than we do? What's your own thoughts on that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, I think part of it is we hesitate because that which we don't have certain knowledge about, we avoid because we don't like uncertainty. But the thing is, Pastor, we can have -- we may not have perfect knowledge about heaven -- I'm sorry, I got that wrong. Well, we don't have perfect knowledge. If we can't figure out all the answers to our questions, we avoid thinking about it. But we can have certain knowledge. Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place."

So unfortunately, I think sometimes we are all so committed to self-preservation, we don't want to think about death because we don't get to heaven until we die or until Jesus returns. We get too attached to the things of this earth, we get too involved in what's relevant and what's about me. And when you really think about it -- well, let me tell you this, Pastor. Okay, let me just say this.

When I first started studying heaven myself, the Lord really revealed to me that the reason I wanted to go there was very self-centered. I missed my dad. My dad died. I happen to be blind. My vision -- I will see, I will know, you know, I just -- I will be relieved of my suffering. So for me, heaven became this very Jennifer-centric experience, and that's why I wanted to go, until I really studied it and I realized that's not the point of heaven. Jesus is the Treasure of Heaven. It's that full union that my soul was made for. And when God began to shift my longings, I cannot desire earth more than heaven, because I know every longing I have will be fulfilled in heaven.

Philip De Courcy: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I think -- you know, I gave you a lot right there. But I think that's part of the reason. We're so self-oriented that we just don't really clue in to -- if we really love ourselves the way Jesus loves us, then we would love heaven more, because that's where every desire is met.

Philip De Courcy: Yeah, I love that. And look, we don't want to discount the new body --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Philip De Courcy: -- and we don't want discount to the reunion of loved one. That's held out to us as the carrot on the end of a stick. But at the end of the day, you're right. You know, one of the things about Revelation 21:22, the new heaven and the new earth, the Lamb is the light.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: I talk about the splendor of the city in my last chapter. And Christ is the splendor.

And you know what the inverse of that is? I was convicted even as you talk. On the days I don't long for heaven, there's something missing about my love for Christ. Because if I truly long for him -- and that's what Paul challenges us. For me to live is Christ, and dying is gain. And when we don't want to die, or death becomes this -- it overwhelms us, if we've got more negative thoughts about it than positive thoughts, more fear than hope, we have lost sight of Christ.

And if I'm living for Christ -- I think John Piper talked about this one day in a sermon. I heard him at the Shepherds Conference. Here's the little syllogy he puts together. If I'm living for Christ, and heaven is more Christ, then death is gain, bring it on. Bring it on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: And I want that. And I need to be in that state of looking onto Jesus, the author and finisher. Or I love -- Jude 24, is it? Looking for that mercy from heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: You know, old Vance Havner talks about -- you know, he imagines a girl standing -- it's wartime -- standing on the platform. She's longing for the train that's about to arrive. But why is she longing for the train? Because of her soldier boyfriend on the train. And we long for the world to come. We long for the kingdom to come. We long for a world without sighing, crying, and dying. But, boy, it's who's on the train. It's who's -- it's who is coming, not what is coming.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. I'm telling you, Jesus is the Treasure of Heaven.

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: I will never forget sitting outside Dr. Ingle's office right there in Borbe Hall at Palm Beach Atlantic University, where he helped me take my statistic exams. Now, some people call statistics "sadistics." And let me just say there is a reason for that. It was hard. And this was back in the day when computers and accessible software, they just weren't existent, or at least not what they are today.

And so being blind, I literally could not navigate all the charts and formulas to pull off statistics. So Dr. Ingles, he would sit outside his office -- because he was my stats professor -- and he would read the exam to me. He would help me navigate charts, and he would read me formulas so that I could take each of those tests. Amazing, right? Well, that professor, he perfectly captures the spirit of the university where I graduated, Palm Beach Atlantic University.

PBA is a relationally caring, academically challenging, oh, and spiritually enriching university that you need to know about for your kids and your grandkids. But can I just say this? Palm Beach Atlantic University isn't just for your kids or grandkids. It can be for you also. PBA offers online courses that you can enroll in bachelor's and master level programs that can fit your schedule, your goals, and your timeline. You got to check it out all in this amazing, caring Christian community.

So go to 413podcast.com/PBA to learn all you need to know. I promise you're going to love it, just like I know you're loving this conversation. So let's get back to it.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, you know, like you said, there are side benefits to heaven, of course.

Philip De Courcy: Sure. A bunch of them.

Jennifer Rothschild: A bunch of them. In fact -- yeah, Revelation is full of the "no mores" and the "no longers."

Philip De Courcy: There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: But here's a question that I have, that you talk about in your book, and I would love for you to address this. Because when we're talking about heaven, sometimes we hear about the beauty, the benefits, and then I think it leads to the question that some of us believe that there are different levels of heaven or levels of hell. Can you address that?

Philip De Courcy: Yeah, I believe that myself. I think there are degrees of reward and there are degrees of punishment. We'll concentrate mostly on what that means for the believer. Because in my book, I have a chapter on the Judgment Seat of Christ, which I think is a lost doctrine. And Paul talks about it in 1 Corinthians 3 and he talks about it in 2 Corinthians 5 and Romans 14. But as there are degrees of joy or reward in heaven, there are degrees of punishment in hell. I believe that hell is a place. I believe -- I don't believe in annihilation, I believe in the conscious eternal punishment of the lost. That's a hard doctrine to swallow, but it's in my Bible. It fell from the lips of the greatest lover of all mankind, the Lord Jesus himself.

And if we wanted an area to think about, Jesus talks about those -- there were some cities in Israel who rejected him and his disciples. And he says, "It'll be worse for you on the day of judgment than Sodom and Gomorrah." And the point was the greater the light, the greater the damnation. We live in the -- we're post Christ's birth. We're post Christ's death, resurrection. We're post his atoning death. We're post his miracles, his displaying of his deity. God has come and centuries of ignorance have passed, and God calls all men to repent everywhere. And so it's clear there are degrees of hell.

Now, we don't want to deduce from that, well, then, you know, hell at its lightest is a heavy thing, if I can put it that way. There's no comfort in that other than it does tell us God is just. And we are all accountable for everything we did, the works we do. You know, there's that scene in Gladiator -- and sorry, it's a guy illustration. But as that started -- right, Gladiator? Maximus, the beginning of the movie they're facing the barbarian hordes, the Germans, and he says, "What we do today will echo into eternity." And that's such a good little phrase. It's in the contemporary culture, and it's true. What we do today affects our eternity.

And for the believer, according to 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, we will receive reward and the pleasure of God and the commendation of God based on the things we did in the body, whether they be good or bad. We're saved by grace, by faith alone in Christ alone. But, Jennifer, faith in Christ gets us to heaven, but our work produced by faith will determine what we receive in heaven. And it's clear, Jesus says, you know, I'm coming quickly and my reward is with me, Revelation 22:20. You can't read anything other than that.

There's going to be different rewards for different Christians, you know. Has some person had dedicated their life to the mission field, with all its attendant sacrifices and hardships? You know, are they going to get treated equal to the believer that was -- you know, we'll see them in church twice a month? They dip their toe in here and they drop a little offering the plate. But where's that passion? Where's that ongoing pursuing of Christ?

And the doctrine of the Judgment Seat of Christ is a sobering one, and that's why we've got to make it our ambition, whether absent or present, to be found pleasing to him. We've got to live, you know, coram Deo. We've got to live with that sense that I will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. The word "appear" there is a strong Greek word. It means where our life will be made manifest. The hidden, the seen, the thought, the word, the deed, it's all going to get examined. Now, thankfully, you know, our sin has been judged.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, thankfully.

Philip De Courcy: We will not be judged for our sins, praise God. There's no condemnation to those who are in Christ. But there will be a judgment of our works. And I think there will be degrees of responsibility in the new heaven and the new earth in the reign of Christ. There's a theory, possibly our resurrected bodies may have different elements of radiance and displaying God's glory.

I think it was Pentecost, Dwight Pentecost out of Dallas Seminary, said, Look, we're all going to shine, you know, but there's 25-watt bulbs and 50-watt bulbs and 100-watt bulbs. If there's any truth to that, I want to be a 100-watt bulb.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Philip De Courcy: I want to be Daniel 12 or Matthew 13. The righteous will shine.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: So I get into that in the book on the Judgment Seat of Christ. There's several aspects to God's reward. And that should motivate us, right? There's an old -- I forget. It's an old British missionary who said we have all eternity to enjoy our rewards, but only a few years to win them. So we got to get after it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and he deserves it.

Philip De Courcy: The lukewarmness has got to stop.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: We got to be on fire for Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes. Well, and he's worthy of that. He deserves that.

Philip De Courcy: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, as I studied this -- and I'm glad you addressed it. And I want to recommend, you guys that are listening, Philip's book here, "Life After Life," because judgment seat is a question I get a lot. And you need to study this. So I want to highly recommend that you look at his book and go deeper here.

But here's what I want to say about this also. As I studied it, the more I studied, I thought, why in the world would Jesus even regard us that much that he would even care to give us rewards, like, when he is our reward? When we deserve nothing from him, that he would honor us as his joint heirs enough that he would say, I see your good works, and you've glorified your Father, and now here's your reward. That's mind blowing. So our motivation alone should be just to honor him for that kindness he shows us.

Philip De Courcy: Absolutely. And then the other side, let's not forget, we were made -- I think I'm paraphrasing something I read years ago. We're made in the image of a working God. When God put man in the Garden, he made need him to work. Tend the garden --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: -- be a coregent with me, be a steward along alongside me. The fall comes, man becomes self-centered, works for himself. We're then redeemed in Christ and we're getting back to that, hey, let's be -- we're co-heirs and joint heirs with Christ. And we want to reflect the image of God that's now being remade in Christ, and that means working. Jesus said, "My Father works and I work, and the night comes when no man shall work."

So you're right, it's -- I mean, Jesus is enough. And we're trying to think through, so, you know, what's all the purpose of this? But you go back to our original purpose in the Garden, we were made to work and subdue -- exercise dominion. So we're getting ready. The Judgment Seat of Christ reminds us we ought to be working, we ought to be serving, we ought to have a resume that will please God, because our works will follow us, which is a very interesting little phrase --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

Philip De Courcy: -- and a wonderful thing. My works will follow me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes.

Philip De Courcy: And the quality of them, the quantity of them. But while I will rest -- I talk about this in the -- what we'll do in heaven. One of the things we'll do is rest. But I don't think that means fold your arms, kick up your feet, where's the nice leather easy chair?

Jennifer Rothschild: Me neither.

Philip De Courcy: You know, it's rest from the works you once did, and find joy in them and you'll be rewarded for them. Like, God, after six days of work rested. He took -- it's good. He looked over his work and he said, "It's good." I want to get to the Judgment Seat of Christ with my life in this earth, the books are closed, and I hope there's enough there to hear the, "Well done, good and faithful servant," and I'll rest from my work.

But then I'll turn around in the new heaven and the new earth and I'll work again. And we'll be back to Eden where with God we will exercise dominion over this world. And I think Randy Alcorn -- I don't know if you touched on this, Jennifer, in your own book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Philip De Courcy: We will have dominion over the galaxies.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: Our bodies may be able to travel from place to place quickly. So it's all fascinating. The world to come is a place of work. It's not a five-star resort.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Philip De Courcy: It's a place of work where we will achieve what man failed to achieve first time around. Does that make sense?

Jennifer Rothschild: Totally. Well, and if we are really made in God's image, which we are, of course, he's a creator.

Philip De Courcy: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: He made us to create and to be creative.

Philip De Courcy: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes we associate wrongly work here on earth and work there on the new earth. Work here is sin stained. There's drive, there's failure --

Philip De Courcy: Frustrating.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's so draining. But that will be work that is to the glory of God and that gives us joy. So, yeah, I don't think we can compare the two because we live on a fallen planet and work here is fallen.

Philip De Courcy: And people have a mistake, right? You've touched on it. People think that work is a result of the fall and the curse. It's not.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Philip De Courcy: The curse is the frustration of it. The curse is it's less fulfilling. The curse is it can be turned towards idolatry and our own self-aggrandizement. But again, we're made in the image of a working God and, therefore, the life that God designed in a state of perfection in Eden will be returned to us in the new heaven and the new earth. And I'm glad for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too.

Philip De Courcy: I mean, we'll be given projects, we'll build, we'll create, we'll subdue, we'll exercise dominion. It just blows apart this silly idea of, you know, the bodyless soul, you know, fluffing up a cloud as a pillow and strumming on a harp. That's not heaven. That's not even close to it. It's a caricature.

I mean, Mark Twain speaks for a generation around us where he talks about, you know, the caricature of heaven. He says heaven is like hell. Well, that's not. It's not boring, it's not tedious, it's not repetitive. It's expansive. It's glorious. I love the phrasing of Ephesians 2:6-7, where in the age to come he will show us the exceeding riches of his grace. Eternity will be a time of exhilaration and exploration, where our souls will expand increasingly in our experience of God, our knowledge of him, as he shows us and keeps on showing us the exceeding, never-ending treasure and riches of his grace. It's just phenomenal.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we'll need eternity to even begin --

Philip De Courcy: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to absorb a tenth of it.

Philip De Courcy: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you just talked about the potential of our glorified, resurrected bodies on the new earth, so let's go there. Because according to Scripture, we don't know exactly what it will be like, but we do know we will be like him when we see him as he is. Okay. So what is the hope of heaven? What does heaven's hope tell us about our earthly bodies even now?

Philip De Courcy: Yeah, I love it. I have a chapter in the book called "The New You." And I begin it with kind of this analogy -- and if you go back to maybe a high school retreat or a reunion and the years have passed and you see someone and you go -- you don't say it to their face, unless you just want to get whacked on the nose, but you might say in your mind, man, they're a shadow of their former selves. You know, boy, they have changed. They have aged. You know?

But if you flip that, when you and I look into each other's face as the saints of God, we are a shadow of our future selves. You know, 1 Corinthians 15:35-48 describes the transformation that's going to take place. I love Philippians 3:20-21 where, you know, we're waiting for Jesus to come when he will transform our vile body. The Old King James. I grew up on that. And I'm not going to run from that, because the Greek word carries the idea that this present body, ultimately -- if you're in your 30s, your 40s or 50s, whatever. But as you get up into your 60s and 70s and 80s and gravitation takes its toll and all of that, you begin to see what Paul's talking about.

We have a body that will ultimately humiliate us, that will ultimately deteriorate. And there's a vileness and an ugliness. I've been there as a pastor, have seen the ravages of cancer and how it can leave a body in a very ugly state. And Paul's saying, but -- that's our present condition, but here's our hope. We're going to be transformed when Jesus returns and he resurrects that body that's been laid to sleep in the grave into his glorious body. The Christian faith is the only faith that boasts an empty tomb. Buddha's dead, Abraham's dead, Muhammad's dead. Jesus is alive in endless life.

And I have a friend, H.B. Charles, African-American pastor, who said Christianity is the only religion where the adherents go to the grave of its founder to make sure he's not there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: I love that. I think he joked there's no skeletons in the Christian's cupboard.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: Right? We have a resurrected Christ who was resurrected bodily. It's a tenant of orthodoxy. You must believe that Jesus was raised from the dead bodily. And if you don't, according to Romans 10:9-10, you're not a Christian. But Jesus was raised physically, and we're going to be made like unto him.

And in the chapter, I -- we'll not get into this. It talks about six things about our resurrected body. It'll be physical. We're getting a body. C.S. Lewis said Christianity is the most materialistic of all the world religions. You know, there's views of nirvana and some kind of perfect state that's ethereal, spiritual, bodiless, you know, where we're all some little Casper floating about the place. No. We're going to be resurrected with a physical body that will endure.

Second, it'll be personal. We'll look like ourselves. Hopefully a little bit better, you know. I didn't get the beauty genes. My daughter said -- you'll like this, Jennifer. My youngest daughter is not married yet, and dying to find the right guy. She said to me one day, "Dad, I want to marry somebody like you, just better looking." So we'll be better looking, but we'll look like ourselves. Jesus was recognized, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. We'll be recognizable, yeah.

Philip De Courcy: Matthew 17, Moses and Elijah were recognized by the disciples, which is interesting since they never met them --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

Philip De Courcy: -- which I think tells us we'll know each other in heaven -- right? -- you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: Number three, it'll be permanent. It's a body that will be a glorious body, sowed in dishonor, raised in glory.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: It'll be a perfect body. It'll be a powerful body, you know, sown in weakness, raised in strength.

But the one I love, it's a pure body. It was sown as a natural body, be raised as a spiritual body. I think what that means -- not that it's -- spiritual in the sense it's not corporal or material. It's a body now no longer subject to sin.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: I get tired fighting sin. Don't you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, so tired.

Philip De Courcy: Sadly I have to admit, the things I would do, I don't, and the things I don't want to do, I do. But there's going to come a point where my desire to please Christ will be matched by a body no longer subject to unredeemed flesh, to sinful tendencies, and that's the thing I'm looking forward to most. So, I mean, we are a shadow of our future selves. We've got this living hope based on the resurrection of Christ.

I love this story. Have you gone cruising?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: All right. I've gone. I like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Philip De Courcy: So I heard a story about this guy's on a cruise. You know, the ship hits a bit of rough water, it's bobbing up and down, he starts to get a little seasick. So he goes out onto the deck, get a bit of fresh air. He's leaning over the rails. He looks like death warmed up. And this crew member comes by and he realizes -- he's seen this a thousand times. He goes over to the guy and he says, "Look, I know how you're feeling, you know, but I want you to know that in all my years of sailing the seven seas, no one has ever died of sea sickness, although you might feel like you're about to." And the poor soul looks at him and says, "Don't tell me that. It's the hope of dying that keeps me alive." And -- look, that's no hope, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Philip De Courcy: The hope of dying -- the hope of dying is not a hope. The hope of dying and to never die again, that's a hope.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes.

Philip De Courcy: And that's ours. We're born on to a living hope. We've got that blessed hope of the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior and so...

You know, my daughter Beth, who was the one who said she wants to marry somebody like me, just better looking, she's over our disability ministry at our church. Or she calls it Indispensables. They're the indispensable part of the body.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Philip De Courcy: But think about the hope that Christianity brings --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: -- to the broken body --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: -- to those who are -- your own self has dealt with a physical ailment that's limited your ability to see. Christianity is promising a new body, a fully functioning body, with no downside, no death, no decay, no limitations, no disabilities. This is a message to sell. Amen?

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Hallelujah.

And here's the thing. The same Jesus who is going to restore and give us that resurrected body is the same Jesus who honors the body we have now, and so we need to honor it. Just treat it well.

Philip De Courcy: I like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, treat it well because this is the body that God is going to resurrect someday and make new. So let's treat it well.

Philip De Courcy: I love that. Because again, we mentioned earlier in the broadcast -- and I think Randy Alcorn in his book deals a lot with this -- that at times the church has been affected by Platonism --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Philip De Courcy: -- Plato, by Greek mythology, that -- or even we talk about Gnosticism, which was beginning to enter the church in Colossi. And basically Gnosticism or Greek mythology is redemption. Salvation is to escape the body, to shed the body --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. No. Right. Right, as if it's inferior.

Philip De Courcy: -- and to get into some kind of pure spiritual experience. And that's not Christian.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Philip De Courcy: God is going to redeem our body. We're going to -- as we've said, we're going to have a material existence forever. And I love your point. So this is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: Our bodies are not to be abused. They're not to be cut. They're not to be -- we're not to abuse them through lack of sleep. Good diet, exercise. We're to take our stewardship of our body seriously so that -- I just downloaded an article I want to read called "Longevity," as in, hey, I want to get to heaven, but I'm on earth. This is my stewardship --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Philip De Courcy: -- this is the preface of the never-ending story. So I want to have a body as much as I can that's under my control. Some things are not under my control. Some things you're born with, some things are hereditary. Get that genetic. But where I can control, I want to extend the life of my body. For what ends? That I may present it a living sacrifice so that I might prove what is that good and acceptable will of God. I want to have a life of full service to Jesus Christ. I want to die exhausted, I want to fall over the finish line and go to my eternal reward.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Well, okay. So since you just talked about the finish line, that's where we are in our conversation, unfortunately. And so can I just say, I'm so glad you've written this book, because what a rich resource. And 4:13ers, we're going to have a link to it at the end of the podcast, so hang on, because we're going to get here to the very last question, Pastor. Oh, my goodness. So hard for me to just pick one last question. But I guess this is it. Okay?

So we've heard all this about heaven, that it's a literal place, it's material, it's not just ethereal, and that it is a very present reality and can affect our today reality. So last question, what would it look like from this day forward if our present life right now was fully governed by our future life in heaven?

Philip De Courcy: I love that. We're back to kind of where we started, the Colossians then -- or Philippians 3, your citizenship is in heaven. That's such an interesting phrase. Because Philippi was 800 miles from Rome, but it was a Roman colony. And Paul is drawing from the world of politics there and he's saying to -- hey, if you're in Philippi, while it's not Rome, the language of Rome governs it, the architecture of Rome governs it, the politics of Rome governs it. Eight hundred miles away, but it feels like Rome in terms of commerce, politics, architecture, all of that. And he says, hey, we're not yet in heaven, but our citizenship is there.

Or Colossians talks about, you know, we are seated with Christ. Our life is hidden. We are ready in that sense in heaven. Our Savior's in heaven, our Lord is in heaven, we're in union with him through the Holy Spirit. So in that sense, heaven is a reality that ought to govern our present experience. It ought to govern our choices, it ought to govern our priorities. It ought to give us hope, it ought to help us redeem the time.

Maybe if I finish -- I remember hearing a preacher tell this story. I think it'll put an exclamation mark on what we've just said. We've got to set our affections on things above. We've got to let the New Jerusalem come into our mind. We've got to, you know, bring the thoughts of the throne of God, what's going on in heaven, the ultimate end of all men, that's got to determine our actions and behavior even today.

The story was told about a pastor who got ganged up on in his church and he got booted out in an angry members' meeting and congregational meeting. And so he goes around to his office, he's done, gets his stuff kind of into the box, and he's walking out to his car. And this old deacon who loved him and was so disappointed in how the meeting turned out goes -- and with a heart of concern for his pastor, he says, "Pastor, what are you going to do? What's your next step? How are you going to handle this?" And the pastor said to him, "It's okay. I'm going to heaven." And the deacon goes, "I know you're going to heaven. I'm talking about now. You just got booted, your life's been upended, things are upside down. Pastor, are you going to be okay? What are you going to do?" "It's okay. I'm going to heaven."

Now, the point of the story, Jennifer, is that's the way we ought to think. When the downturn in the economy comes, it's okay. I'm going to heaven. When we get a bad doctor's report, it's okay. I'm going to heaven. When things are tough, when we're persecuted for righteousness's sake, it's okay. We're going to heaven. Because you know what? Five seconds on the other side of this life, it'll all be washed away, and the incoming tide of eternal blessing will cause us to say it was worth it all when we see Jesus. So folks today, it's okay. We're going to heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's okay. We're going to heaven. So whatever you face, it's okay. We're going to heaven. As I love to say, earth is short and heaven is long. So my friends, the reality of heaven, it really can change how we live right here, right now, here on earth.

KC Wright: Our citizenship is in heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it sure is.

KC Wright: And everything we do, the way we talk, the way we live, all should reflect where our true country really is. Man, this was so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wasn't it?

KC Wright: And it was even better because of his accent, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: So you need to get this man's book. Jennifer recommended it, and she wrote a whole Bible study on heaven, so she should know. It's going to be a fantastic read. Get yours today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I really do think it is a great resource. And I just think you cannot, my people, read too many books on heaven. So, of course, do my Bible study, absolutely, and read Philip's book.

KC Wright: We will have links to both at 413podcast.com/388. And you can win one of Philip's books right now by going to Jennifer's Instagram @jennrothschild.

And, of course, the Show Notes will get you more info on Philip's book as well, on Jennifer's video-based Bible study on heaven, and anything else that will make your life better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Amen.

KC Wright: So let's live like heaven is real. Let it give you hope. You can, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And --

Jennifer and KC: You can.