4:13 Podcast: Can I Stop Emotional Hoarding? With Laurie Davies

Laurie Davies: In the pages of "Emotional Hoarding," we're not hauling our emotions out to a dumpster. Even if we could, we would just -- to use your word "restock."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So we have to get to the root of why we're holding on. And that takes a little bit of courage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: I would say that's the first thing. If you're asking about how do we process this stuff instead of possess this stuff, I would say the first thing is, you know, to have a little bit of courage to dig into the corners of your emotional closets.

Jennifer Rothschild: The concept of emotional baggage is awfully trendy and we often joke about it. Yet, one of the earliest English definitions of "luggage" is anything of more weight than value. Ooh, let that sink in. When we collect, stack, and stockpile burdens, we add weight, but we don't add value to our lives. Those are the wise words of today's guest, author Laurie Davies.

So with humor and biblical wisdom, Laurie is going to help us stop hoarding grudges, anger, regrets, and instead we're going to find wholeness and healing in Christ. Ooh, doesn't that sound good? All right, friends, it is time to move from hoarding to healing.

KC, let's get the party started.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, friends, we're glad you're here today. I've got a happy tingle going on about today's topic. Ooh, it's a good topic. So it is two friends here -- it's me and KC -- and one topic, and zero stress. So glad you're here. And I hope your week has been good. I'm telling you, this next 30 minutes is gonna be really good, 'cause we are talking about a concept that I find absolutely fascinating, and you're going to also, emotional hoarding.

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: And Laurie, you know, she deals a lot with that physical image of hoarding when she's talking about this and we can relate. I'm telling you, nothing -- okay, not nothing. Very few things, KC, bring me more stress than too much stuff.

KC Wright: Yeah. And I've really -- you know, you are who you hang out with. And that is something that I'm so grateful I've picked up from you, because you are always decluttering --

Jennifer Rothschild: Always.

KC Wright: -- cleaning --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: -- making things better, sharper. Beauty is beheld here at the Rothschild Homestead. But you're always giving me your treasures --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: -- and I love it, I love it, I love it. But I give a lot of it away.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you do. And you've got your antique flea market booth --

KC Wright: Right. I have a little booth.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- so you can sell some of it too.

KC Wright: And the only reason I do that is because it helps pay for my daughter's piano lessons.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I think it's great.

KC Wright: And it's so fun, 'cause you just shove stuff in there -- my friends own it -- and you walk away, and you go back in a month and you're like, oh, wow, I made $300 off junk?

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. It's the best.

KC Wright: But, no, I think you taught me this, but I -- several years ago I started having a -- just placing a box in my house, and in that box goes, hey, I don't wear that anymore. I don't like that anymore. Why am I keeping this?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: And you know what? Right now in my life, I gotta get rid of some things that -- the only reason I have them is because someone gave them to me, that are now in heaven, and I feel -- and I'm like, no, they need to go --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- because they don't care anymore. They don't care.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, they -- they're so happy and whole.

KC Wright: They don't care.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what, KC? I -- so I have this rule, one for one. If I get something new, I get rid of something old.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I donate it or -- but, yeah, I keep the box.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I also have a rule that I will keep the box for at least a month. Because sometimes I can get a little impetuous. I'm like, Oh, I'm stressed out, I think I'll clean something, and I'll get rid of 12 things that I actually should have kept. So that's part of it.

KC Wright: Where's my favorite coffee mug?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Oh, it's in the box.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do that. You would not believe.

KC Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, you know, Kenzie -- y'all, I've talked about Kenzie before. She's my assistant. She will help me. She'll be like, "Well, why are you keeping this?" "Well, because so-and-so from such-and-such gave me it because" -- and she's like, "Get rid of it. They don't care and you don't care." You're right, yeah. So, yeah, we need people to help us clean it out.

KC Wright: Yeah. However, today she's talking about something that is so big.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: Because I know a lady in my life, and I love her so much, and she is sunshine with hair. But every time I'm around this lady, she starts talking about her divorce that happened 100 years ago, and her ex-husband that caused her all this pain is now dead. He's in heaven, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But here we are, it's a beautiful day, blue skies, the flowers are blooming, the birds are chirping, and she's stuck 20 years ago. And it's a stronghold.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. That's exactly what Laurie's talking about.

KC Wright: It's a stronghold, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's this emotional hoarding, not willing to let go. We don't even know we're doing it sometimes. Like, Miss Sunshine probably doesn't know she's doing it --

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know?

KC Wright: But my heart breaks for her because whom the Son sets free is free indeed --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, hallelujah.

KC Wright: -- and she's not free because she needs a renewed mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, you just -- it's like you and Laurie had this conversation, not me and Laurie. Dude, that was so good.

Okay, introduce her, because we need to hear from this girl.

KC Wright: Laurie Davies is a former journalist and women's ministry director. Laurie knows the burdens that weigh women down. As an author, speaker, and lay counselor, she encourages women to trade their emotional hoards for freedom. Laurie lives in Mesa, Arizona, with her husband of 30 years, Greg. Their adult son, Morgan, lives nearby. And after hearing this great conversation, you will wish you lived near Laurie too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: So here's J.R. and Laurie.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Laurie, I love that we both have short hair. And though I have a red streak and you don't yet, it's coming. It is coming, girl. I know it's coming.

But we're gonna talk about something that is fun today. It's a fun topic, but it can get very un-fun. Okay? So when I saw your book, I was like, I gotta talk to this girl, because we're gonna talk about emotional hoarding.

But before we do, like, there is -- everybody bats around these words "emotional luggage" or "emotional baggage." So first of all I want you to talk about what emotional baggage is, and do we all carry it, and then I want you to explain what you mean by emotional hoarding.

Laurie Davies: I will do both. But first I will mention that maybe one day I will have a red streak in my hair.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, one day.

Laurie Davies: Maybe I'll be cool enough.

Yeah, so emotional baggage, you're right, I think we sort of toss that term around. It's become just a natural part of our vernacular. And I think by -- sometimes we're joking about it. You know, we've made memes out of it. But generally by "emotional baggage," we mean difficult emotions or unresolved emotions that just are -- you know, that have piled up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Laurie Davies: So by emotional hoarding, I would take that same definition to the next level and say not only have they piled up and accumulated, but sometimes we don't want to let go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Ooh. Okay. I can kind of get where you're going with that. So then here's the question. How do we know if you're an emotional hoarder? Like, make that real.

Laurie Davies: Well -- so 10,000-foot view, there are some global cues and clues. I'll do those first. And then maybe we can pick specifically on one of the emotions in the book so that your listener will be able to work that out specifically.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Laurie Davies: So globally I would say we can know we're holding on with no intention of letting go. If it's something we're nurturing in our thinking, clinicians call that ruminating. You know, we think about it all the time. Last thing we think about before we go to bed, first thing we think about when we wake up. So there's that side of the coin.

The other side of the coin is sometimes we just stuff it down and forget it's there. It'll go away if I just sweep it under the rug. Listen to the language we use. It's even the language of kind of -- it's household language.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: You know, it sort of lines up with how a physical hoarder might sort of start to accumulate things and not even see them anymore. So we sort of do that with our emotions sometimes. We can tell we're hoarding if we're ignoring the thing. "No, I don't feel this way." So that'll come out later. You'll be playing an emergency game of emotional whack-a-mole, you know. And spoiler alert, that's never convenient timing. So those two things can offer evidence.

This stuff also shows up in our physiology. So how are you sleeping? How's your tummy? Do you have headaches a lot? You know, is your jaw clenched throughout the day because you're just thinking about this hard thing? So that's sort of top-level view. If those things are going on, if you see yourself in that at all, you may be holding on to stuff and thinking you can't or shouldn't or won't or don't deserve to let go of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that's -- and that was good qualification there. You can't, you won't, you don't deserve. And then I think sometimes we're just ignorant too.

Laurie Davies: Yeah. Sometimes we don't see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't because it's so familiar to us. Even if it's dangerous or unhealthy, it's so familiar that it just -- yeah, it feels like it's ours.

So in your book, I know you cover ten different emotions. And I think this will help us, like you said, get granular here. And these are the emotions that hurt us if we hoard them. Okay. So, like, why don't you pick one -- or give us an idea of what they might be, some of them, and then let's pick one that might have been your favorite or least favorite, like, the hardest for you to write about, and let's go granular with that.

Laurie Davies: Yeah, doesn't that sometimes happen? The least favorite becomes the most favorite because that's where God helped you grow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Laurie Davies: So, yeah, I think if we survey the emotions, the things we hold on to, worry is one. How many have said, "I'm just from a family of worriers. I worry all the time"? Fear, regret, guilt, specifically false guilt. Pride. I saved that for a little deeper into the book because I don't think any of your listeners woke up this morning thinking, boy, I really hope I get a handle on my pride today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: But it piles up and it hurts us and it hurts our relationships. Anger, bitterness. Dread. There's some mystery around that one. That was fun to unpack. And then I end the book with worthlessness and shame.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Okay. Yeah, these are sadly familiar.

Laurie Davies: Yeah. And it's a hard list, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Laurie Davies: I mean, there's -- there is humor in these pages because I needed it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Laurie Davies: We can't unpack this stuff without some mileposts along the way where we stop and just laugh. And no one is going to feel beaten up on this journey either because --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Laurie Davies: -- this is stuff -- none of us hoard good emotions, positive. You know, we find 20 bucks in our jeans and we just express joy. It just comes out of us. It's the hard stuff that we hold on to.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And that's what I wanted to take a look at, because -- you know, in the book I had the luxury of tackling one emotion at a time, but in real life this stuff becomes like a combo platter and we -- it gets messy and tangled up, and anger overlaps with regret, and that comes out as shame and it all becomes so much. So I wanted to tackle one at a time so we could clear some floor space in our hearts. And actually what we're doing in these pages is charting a course toward freedom.

So you wanted me to pick on --

Jennifer Rothschild: Pick on you.

Laurie Davies: -- one emotion.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: Well, I will. I will tell you, late in the book is a chapter on worthlessness. It was a hard one for me to write. Because honestly, you know, I approached this thinking I'm going to help all those readers out there --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: -- deal with worthlessness. And what I realized -- and I think I knew it coming in. I think that's why I went away to write this chapter. One of my friends graciously offered me a lake house for the week, and I just -- I didn't put on makeup, I -- I just sat and wept through this chapter because it's my core wound.

So, you know, clues that worthlessness may have become chronic, and I -- some of these came from my own heart. You know, attention seeking. You fish for compliments. You need something to get attention. Or maybe it comes out the opposite way, you put yourself down.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mmm, yeah.

Laurie Davies: Comparison. You compare your performance to others as a measure of finding your worth. Maybe striving comes to mind. You know, you hustle, you stay busy. I used to call myself high capacity. I think that's just a euphemism for workaholic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So you strive, you hustle to find your worth. Or you have a lack of boundaries. You don't know how to say no because it's that going and doing and producing that gives you your worth. Negative self-talk. You put yourself down. Or you, even worse, agree with others' destructive statements. And we've got a real problem if that's the case, because that's all the enemy does.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. He's there to accuse.

Laurie Davies: That's all he feeds us. Yeah, he stands before God. He has the audacity to stand before God night and day accusing the brethren. That's us, the brethren and the sisters.

So that one is something -- you know, I probably from now until glory will be getting a handle on that one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: But it was sweet to write, it was difficult to write. It was a little bit autobiographical. But also I have this deep compassion for my reader in that chapter because I know what it's like to struggle with that. And, you know, there's really something to understanding when God made us, he made a masterpiece. And we don't get the right to hang a clearance tag on that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Yeah. Wow. Laurie, that's hard and that's powerful. And I think a lot of us as women -- well, I do -- identify with that. Now, of course, we might have different levels of it, but, I mean, I think we all identify with that. And of course we would. Because if we are of ultimate worth that Jesus would die for us, the Imago Dei of God -- I mean, if this is who we are, of course Satan's going to attack that very part of us. And then we can agree with it

And so I'm thinking of just your physicality of how you create this image of hoarding, right? So if I think, okay, so let's say I'm a worthlessness hoarder emotionally. If I think about something that I hoard in my house, even if I clean it out -- okay? -- even if I clean it out of my house, I'm like, okay, I just noticed this hoarding, I'm getting rid of all this junk, I'm still going to have the propensity toward getting it again and putting it right back in my house because it was familiar.

So how do we overcome that temptation or walk in the grace to not just keep restocking?

Laurie Davies: Wow. First of all, I love this question. Second of all, you hit this whole concept on the head. Because in the pages of "Emotional Hoarding," we're not hauling our emotions out to a dumpster. Even if we could, we would just, to use your word, restock.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So we have to get to the root of why we're holding on. And that takes a little bit of courage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: I would say that's the first thing. If you're asking about how do we process this stuff instead of possess this stuff, I would say the first thing is, you know, to have a little bit of courage to dig into the corners of your emotional closets.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So that does take a little bit -- you know, I've had a funny reaction to this book. People will look at the title, "Emotional Hoarding," and go, "Oh, I need that." And then there's almost sometimes a, "Ooh, I don't" --

Jennifer Rothschild: "I don't want that."

Laurie Davies: -- "I don't know if I want that," yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it -- I get that. I do. I understand that wholeheartedly. That first step does take a little courage to kind of -- hmm, do I want to peek in this closet here that I've had shut for a long time?

I would say the second thing would be, we have a real strong ally in this process. We have a helper called the Holy Spirit. We can, as David did, invite God to search our heart to see if there's any offensive way in us. There is zero risk here because God already knows everything in us that's offensive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And when we ask him that, we're showing him a humility that he loves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: He'll partner with us in that. And so we can invite him in.

And then, you know, maybe a third -- I go through this in a little bit more detail in the book, but high-level third step would be to challenge your thinking about why you're holding on. That gets to the restocking thing you're talking about.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Laurie Davies: Is it godly? Is it ingrained because it was imprinted on you at a young age?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Laurie Davies: Is it even working for you? Is it helping you parent better, love your husband, or is it working for the enemy?

Jennifer Rothschild: Dude, this is so practical, Laurie. I love this. And I can assure the reader of this book, yeah -- yeah, it may be some challenging concepts, but it is so safe and delightful the way you've framed it. And it is, it's a safe journey that you have taken and that you hold the hand of the reader. I love that. Because all of us have dealt with this and -- I just love that.

And speaking of something all of us have dealt with -- okay, so you did mention these ten different emotions. You talked about worthlessness, which I think a lot of us can identify with. But you started with worry. And I think that's interesting. So I know you're a writer, you're an editor, so I'm curious. You intentionally led with that. So why did you lead with worry, and did you learn anything about it that surprised you?

Laurie Davies: I led with worry because I wanted the reader to clear some quick emotional floor space.

I just got some new shelves in my office, so -- they're floor to ceiling. I had to move everything out so we could get these shelves in. And when we were moving everything out, I was astonished at what had accumulated that I didn't even see anymore. You know, the pile of papers I thought I'll deal with later and the -- I have so many books -- it's a problem -- that they -- you know, they were stacking on the floor. I have a computer monitor I haven't hooked up yet, so there's this big box in the corner.

So anyway, moving everything out revealed to me how much there was. And I think that can be true sometimes with our emotional builds on builds, if you will.

So I picked on worry first because it's fairly universal and there is a very neat, clean way in Scripture to close the worry loop. So I thought, if I can help my reader feel like they've made quick progress, maybe they'll have the courage to move on to chapter 3, and then 4, and then 5.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. Yeah. And so give me a quick understanding of what the -- how to close that worry loop.

Laurie Davies: Yeah. So it's found in Philippians 4, which is near and dear to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And so it's all the whatevers. And really it's a thought modification process, if you will. Because at the end of all of them it says, "Think on these things."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So again, I kind of unpack them really in more detail in the book. But maybe we could look at the first one, whatever is --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, just look at one of them.

Laurie Davies: Whatever is true. So this is -- so for the listener who's wondering, you know, where I'm going with this, this is Philippians -- really I start in Philippians 4:5, because it's really important to know what comes before the whatevers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And it's, "The Lord is near," so do not be anxious for anything. That changes that. That hits different.

Jennifer Rothschild: Big time. Yeah, big time.

Laurie Davies: Yeah. I mean, if you've ever been worried, anxious, and you have a friend -- or friend -- air quotes friend who throws the don't -- "You know, the Bible says don't be anxious for anything," you just want to like, you know, just snap their neck. Not literally. But it's a frustrating moment when you're in that place of worry and you're told not to worry. But I love what the Lord places before that. "I'm near." "I'm so near to you."

So then we hear, "Don't be anxious for anything, but in everything, by prayer and supplication, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God, which transcends understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus." That's what we're going for here, guarding our hearts and minds.

Then we get to the whatevers. Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, you know, that whole list. Whatever is lovely. So the first one, whatever is true. In different Bible translations, "right" might be translated "just," "noble" might be translated -- don't remember. But there's different words for noble. True is always true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah. It's either true or false. There is no --

Laurie Davies: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there's no nuance there.

Laurie Davies: So whatever is true, that's such a great starting point. So I'm worried I won't have enough money for retirement. Or I'm worried I'm wrecking my kids. I hear that from moms a lot. Worried I'm not a good mom. Well, load up with what's true. God chose you for this assignment. On the money question, you know, God provides. I've been worried about money so many times in my life. You know what? I've never missed a meal. That is true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Laurie Davies: So we can start right out of the chute with just a pretty long list of what is true. What's the truth that God speaks over your situation? And then we work through the others. And by the end of that progression, you know, there's a reason Paul encouraged us the Lord's inspiration to think on these things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: 'Cause they work.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I see you in your office with your bookshelves and your computer monitor box, et cetera, and I see that image with our emotions and that you lay that Philippians 4:8 standard over it.

And it's almost like you pick up each thing in your emotional closet and you look at it and you go, Is this true? No. It's got to get out of here. It's not going to stay here. Is this noble? Is this good? Is this right? Well, if it doesn't -- if it's not good and noble and right, then it cannot stay in your office there.

So I can just see what a beautiful way this is to help you discern that which is cluttering and that which you are hoarding and, therefore, get rid of it just with that easy biblical -- I say easy -- with that simple biblical standard. Which on our own in our flesh is not easy, but through the power of the Holy Spirit it is a done deal.

Laurie Davies: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, Laurie, that's so good. That's so -- I love visual things. Even though I can't see, I love visual things. It just helps us really process it. So thank you for sharing that.

And then I guess as I'm hearing that, I'm thinking of things that I hoard, that I hold on to. Like, there's some things that I hold on to, like, let's say bitterness, and I think I'm holding on to it because I think I'm justified, and if I just continue to resent, then they will pay. But really I'm the only one, right?

Laurie Davies: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm curious, why is it -- you kind of alluded to this a little bit a couple of questions ago -- but that we -- why is it that we hold on to these emotions that hurt us?

Laurie Davies: Well, first of all, thanks for being honest. Because I don't think we fess up about the stuff we hold on to enough, especially as women. I think it's -- oh, that's probably a whole different podcast. But I think if we could just be a little more honest about what we're -- you know, we even use the language of holding on with that one. We hold grudges.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: I don't have to go too far in my own mind and in my own circle to find some grudges that are being held on to out of that sense of entitlement. I don't see Jesus hanging on the cross and saying things like, You know, Laurie, 99% of how you've sinned against me I'm going to forgive. But that 1%, I'm just -- I can't do it. I can't give it. I'm gonna withhold that. That would change every -- that would not be a good deal for me, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Laurie Davies: I would spend the rest of my life approaching a throne of partial grace with a lack of confidence. So anyway, bitterness in particular, I'm glad you hit that one, because I think sometimes we do feel entitled to hold on. So that's one --

Jennifer Rothschild: We do, yeah.

Laurie Davies: -- one reason to your question. Now I'll answer your question.

You know, sometimes it's good old-fashioned rebellion. We want to hold that grudge. We think we are entitled to that grudge. Sometimes maybe it's a survival strategy. Grew up maybe -- false guilt comes to mind. I wrote a whole chapter on that. And some of your listeners may have grown up knowing in the family drama and dysfunction that was happening, there was a price to pay. Somebody had to say they were sorry.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And they learned wrongly that if they said sorry, even if things weren't their fault, even if they weren't responsible, if they just took the blame, that the hard thing would stop. So sometimes it's a survival strategy we learned when we were young that, guess what, we don't need that to survive anymore.

It may seem sometimes wrong to let some of these things go. If I just wallow in regret, that feels maybe like spiritual conviction. Or if I stay in shame, I won't repeat that sin.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, right. Yeah.

Laurie Davies: Sometimes -- you've already brought this up -- we don't even see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: A physically hoarded home doesn't go from piles of paper on the kitchen table to I have to walk sideways just to shimmy down the hall. That doesn't happen overnight.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Right.

Laurie Davies: You know, it's years and years of accumulation.

And, you know, let's not forget the obvious. We do have an enemy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: He does want us to feel trapped and isolated and ashamed and small and worthless. He wants us to be trapped in all of these things. He wants us to be bound in a state of not freedom. So, yeah, those are some of the reasons we hold on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, those all make a lot of sense to me. Sadly, they make a lot of sense to me. I mean, they make a lot of sense to me because I'm a woman who has lived for many decades, right? So I feel them, I get them, I've experienced them, I have -- I can see all that in my -- what I call thought closet.

But I'll tell you this too, Laurie. I was a psych major in college, so this is resonating with me also. So I am pretty fascinated by this topic of emotional hoarding. So I'm curious, just as you were researching and writing, did anything, like, really go, like, wow or surprise you when you were researching this topic of emotional hoarding?

Laurie Davies: Yes. A couple of things did. I wrote a chapter on grudges and bitterness. Holding grudges are just a nice way of saying we're bitter, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, resentment, all that stuff, yeah.

Laurie Davies: So I discovered there's science on this. And a nationally representative study has found that each of us at any given time are holding an average of seven grudges.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Laurie Davies: Sometimes when I speak, I try to work this forgiveness part into my talks because it's just a universal thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

Laurie Davies: We're all holding grudges. And so I'll drop that seven grudges thing, and I'll see women in the front sometimes sort of looking like, oh, well, that's not me, I'm not -- I don't hold grudges. Which, first of all, is denial.

Second of all, I'll point that out -- you know, I never call anyone out specifically. But I'll point that out that I see these expressions, and I'll say that's -- I'm seeing some sort of pushback, like facial pushback. And if you don't hold grudges, that is very good news for you, but that means the woman next to you is holding 14.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. So be honest.

Laurie Davies: Yeah, yeah. So that was shocking to me that --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: -- seven grudges. And I think also I wrote a chapter on dread.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that one was curious when you mentioned that.

Laurie Davies: Dread isn't something we talk about a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Laurie Davies: But specifically I went after dread in the context of keeping secrets, and I discovered -- there's also science on this. Someone has devoted a career to studying secrets. And we keep 13 secrets on average.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Yeah, I can see that.

Laurie Davies: 97% of the participants in his research were keeping one secret, at least one. So it's a universal thing, 97% of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And some of your listeners just now went to that secret they're keeping --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: -- and they felt dread. They felt so scared that their husband or their family or the public or their people will find out. And I have such compassion for that listener today because it's such a trap.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurie Davies: It's such a trap.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, I've never thought of dread as -- but I can see that. And I can -- you know, immediately when you said 13, I started ticking off a few I kept in my heart. I don't know if I could get to 13 at this very moment, but I bet if I thought hard, I could. That's crazy.

Laurie Davies: And I want to point out quickly, not all of these are 13 big skeletons in the closet. There's another household analogy for us, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. There you go.

Laurie Davies: So not all of them are these -- you know, these big sins, like flash them on the screen --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Laurie Davies: -- and we would just...

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Laurie Davies: Some of them are things we want to keep secret -- you know, maybe we have a mental health diagnosis and we just don't want people to know. That's not a sin. That's just something we're keeping in. And maybe the Lord is asking us to -- you know, we don't have to blab all this stuff on social media. We've kind of lost the handle on how to communicate with discretion --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Laurie Davies: -- to our inner circle. You know, Jesus modeled this. He had 12, but he had an inner circle of three.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right.

Laurie Davies: So if you hear yourself in this place of "I feel dread" or "I feel" -- "I struggle with worthlessness," or, "I'm angry all the time, I just struggle with anger," where's your inner circle that you can invite to carry that stuff with you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's good.

Laurie Davies: Because the enemy really wants us to stay isolated and trapped. And all of these things point to shame --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they do.

Laurie Davies: -- for the believer --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they do.

Laurie Davies: -- who knows they're living in an active disconnect with the freedom life that Jesus came to give us. So, yeah. I think I went on a tangent, but...

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it was a good tangent. It was worthy. And --

Laurie Davies: It was worthy. Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was a worthy tangent.

Laurie Davies: Thank you for pouring into my core wound.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's true. I forgot.

But here's what's interesting. As you were describing that too, I thought, you know, there is a difference between something that needs to remain private and something we keep a secret.

Laurie Davies: Correct.

Jennifer Rothschild: And the Holy Spirit will help us discern that along with our inner circle. So I appreciate that. But, you know, dread is rarely associated with private things, but it is often associated with secret things.

Laurie Davies: Secret things, yeah. That's a good distinction. Thank you for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's a good word. Okay, I'm highly recommending this book. I love the concept. I love the way you framed it. And so we're going to get to our last question,

Laurie, because I know that I've resonated with a lot of this and I know I can't wait to go deeper. So I have a feeling some of our listeners are feeling the same way right now.

And so let's say she or he has detected, oh, my goodness, I think I'm an emotional hoarder. And they can even think of the couple of things that they're big hoarding on. So what can that listener do when they finish this podcast? What is the first step to getting free of all of this?

Laurie Davies: Wow, I love that question. I think -- you know, more than anything, I hope the listener understands that the Lord is near. And he's near to us in these pages and he's near to us in this process. Sometimes we'll hear -- and I think it's well-meaning, this notion of, "God feels so far," and we might hear in response to that, "Well, you're the one that moved."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laurie Davies: Which, look, when I'm feeling far from the Lord, I don't want to hear just in that moment that I'm being a jerk and I'm the one that moved. What I want to hear -- what I'm saying is I need relief. I've lost my way. I'm in pain. I need to know that he's near, not that I've been a jerk.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And I think the Lord wants us to know this, right? Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. The Lord is close to the brokenhearted. His very name Emmanuel means "God With Us." Jesus' last words were, "I am with you to the very end of the age." So we could go on and on. This is the point he wants us to get.

But I think where we start is understanding we're in a position already of nearness to God, and he's the one who can help us tease out some of the things that we've been hiding or ignoring or haven't even seen the buildup. And he's good. You know, he knows how hard to poke. He won't break us because he loves us and he cares about us and he wants us to be free.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Lord is near. And he is near in this process, so draw near to him. Because if you're brokenhearted, don't forget, he's near to the brokenhearted. I love that Laurie repeated Jesus' last words, "I am with you even until the end of the age."

KC Wright: So good. We start with knowing we are near to him, because he's the one who helps us see what is hidden or ignored. He will to help us unclutter, move from emotional hoarding to spiritual healing. I thought of the verse in the Old Testament describing Jesus, "He will not break a bruised reed."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, I thought of that too, KC.

And I was also thinking when Laurie was sharing, sometimes we just really want a formula. But what we really need most is God's nearness. The Holy Spirit, he is our best counselor. So get in his presence, invite him into your emotional closet, and ask him to identify what you are hoarding. And then, like, get with your people and let them help you. You guys can start cleaning it out together.

KC Wright: For sure. Get Laurie's book. It's so funny, wise, and practical. My favorite kind of book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Kind of like she is --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right?

KC Wright: -- funny, wise, and practical. We'll have a link to it on the Show Notes right now, plus a full transcript of this conversation. 413podcast.com/410.

Well, until next week, our people --

Jennifer Rothschild: You sound so official.

KC Wright: -- let go of that emotional baggage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: You know, one way, well, you can get rid of your emotional baggage --

Jennifer Rothschild: How?

KC Wright: -- is stop talking about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: But that Scripture, "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which lie behind."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: I preached a message once called "Forget About It" --

Jennifer Rothschild: Forget about it.

KC Wright: -- said in my Italian voice. Forget about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Forget about it.