4:13 Podcast: Can I Steward Biblical Self-Care? With Dr. Benjamin Espinoza [Episode 397]

Ben Espinoza: What if that time of solitude and prayer fueled his ministry? And I began to think about this quote from Martin Luther where he says, "I'm too busy not to pray." And that was a paradigm shift for me, right? It was as though -- you know, prayer and that relationship with God and that self-care sort of was like an aside for Jesus' ministry. But what if it fueled everything?

And I started to think about the two greatest commandments. Love God with everything that you are. And the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And when you look at the teachings of Jesus, it's there multiple times in the Gospels. He says do unto others as they would have them do unto you. So there really is that stewardship of self.

Jennifer Rothschild: What do you think of when you hear the words self-care? Well, let's be honest. Most of us think of massages and facials and -- well, me, naps. But is that really the kind of self-care that is going to sustain us in the long run? The truth is those are good things, but they're shallow, temporary fixes at best.

So today's guest, pastor and theologian Dr. Benjamin Espinosa, is going to take us beyond the surface level indulgences that dominate today's self-care culture, and instead he is going to present self-care as a deeply Christian practice rooted in our relationships with God, others, and society.

Ooh, you are about to discover that self-care is an act of faithfulness and stewardship. So let's hit it, KC.

KC Wright: KC, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends, we're so glad you're back with us today. Hope you've had a good week, that spring has sprung where you live. It's me and KC. We're here in the podcast closet. And we have one goal, and that's to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. And you know the drill. It's two friends and one topic and zero stress.

So I gotta give a big shoutout before we start talking about this topic. I am out again this month with Point of Grace for the Hope of Heaven Tour. So if you guys have not been able to come in March, you need to come in April to the Hope of Heaven Tour with me and Point of Grace. And you can find all that you need on the Show Notes, or you can just go to HopeOfHeavenTour.com or to my website, JenniferRothschild.com.

And you can get connected there, because I would love to see you as I'm out and about this spring. But I gotta tell you, we're talking self-care. And one of the best things that you can do to care for yourself is be spiritually fed. All right? So come to Hope of Heaven.

But I have got to tell you something about my friend KC. Okay. So back a couple months ago, we -- I remember texting you. It was Valentine's Day. And I remember texting you and telling you you're my favorite guy friend. Because KC, not so happily, calls Valentine's Day Single Awareness Day.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so, like, that's a day where, like, you need to be kind to yourself --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because that can be a rough day.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So he sends me, my friends, this verse. And I'm like, "Dude, you have got to post this on social media," because it cracked me up. And I thought, what a perfect way to manage your soul, is to laugh, right? And to relate to others, which is what we were doing. And that's what people are going to -- what we're going to be talking about today. But you posted on social media.

All right. So with no further ado, KC, tell them the verse that you posted on Valentine's Day as a single man. And then I want to know what some people said about it.

KC Wright: Isaiah 4:1, New Living Translation. "In that day so few men will be left that seven women will fight for each man, saying, 'Let us all marry you! We will provide our own food and clothing. Only let us take your name so that we won't be mocked as old maids.'" Talk about a verse of the day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, I claim it, Lord.

KC Wright: Oh, my gosh, that's an idea. Maybe we find all the funny Scriptures and put them in a daily calendar.

Jennifer Rothschild: That would be hilarious.

KC Wright: Wouldn't that be funny if that was a verse --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, pull them all out of context.

KC Wright: You'll never find this on a mug at Mardel's or Hobby Lobby.

But anyway, some of my friends -- of course, you know, Sweet Janice, "It'll be okay. You'll be okay. Love you."

Jennifer Rothschild: Sweet.

KC Wright: My friend, Kelly, "Seven women? Yikes! If I were you, I'd run like Joseph." My friend Patricia wrote, "Much better than Judges 9:53 that I read this morning. 'And a certain woman threw an upper millstone on Abimelech's head and crushed his skull.'" Oh, my goodness. And then Jeannie said, "I guess there are seven times more single women." Anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: My favorite part of that verse is the women are like, We'll get our own food and clothes. Just give us your name. I mean, that's hilarious.

KC Wright: But I want to talk about self-care.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Yes, talk.

KC Wright: I'm serious. You know, in my 20s and my 30s, I didn't even -- I didn't even know what self-care was.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But I don't know a better blessing you could bless yourself with would be J.R. and Point of Grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Right?

KC Wright: Because Point of Grace is like the Wilson Phillips of Christian music. And then J.R. and Point of Grace?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's gonna be awesome. That's what your soul needs.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. But in my world, I get blessed with a good haircut.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: You know, a good haircut and a beard trim and -- you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm not going to discuss my beard trimming. But that does happen post menopause.

KC Wright: But also just going to the gym one hour a day. Because, you know, they say if the plane's going down, you got to put the mask on yourself first.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

KC Wright: So self-care is important.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that's what Dr. Ben is going to talk about today. That it's actually stewardship. It's actually stewardship of the bodies that God gave us. But it's more than just the facial or the gym.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those are, like, the -- to me, those are like the icing on the cake. Because if you don't have the deeper stuff, like being nourished by God and others, and relationships and your community, then those don't satisfy. They only work when you really are caring for your soul as a steward.

So that was a great setup for this, so let's introduce Dr. Ben and get it moving.

KC Wright: Dr. Ben Espinoza is passionate about developing the next generation of leaders for the church and society. He currently serves as the lead pastor of Riverstone Church in Avon, New York, and previously served in a number of executive level roles at Roberts Wesleyan University in Rochester.

You are going to love this practical family conversation between Ben and Jennifer talking about Ben's latest book, "Good News About Self-Care." Here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Ben. I've looked forward to this conversation when I just read about your book. And here's my first thought. Okay? Because I'm an author. So anytime I notice someone has written a book on something, like for yours the stewardship of self-care, I wonder, hmm, sometimes the author writes books that they need to read, right?

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So my question is, what kind of experience have you had or what have you observed that made you realize, hey, I need to speak into this thing of self-care in the body of Christ?

Ben Espinoza: I appreciate that, Jennifer. It's such a joy and honor to be here with you today.

So this book emerged out of a really difficult experience -- set of experiences I had in 2020, which is everybody's favorite year, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Ben Espinoza: So in early 2020, let me give you a snapshot into what I was dealing with. So I was finishing up my doctoral dissertation, my wife was finishing up her doctoral dissertation. I had gotten this big administrative job at a Christian university here in New York, and my wife was pregnant with our second child, Elijah. And I started this new big job in 2020, early 2020, and in March of 2020 everything kind of fell apart with the COVID-19 pandemic.

So there we were finishing up our education, my wife was going to have our second kid, I was trying to get my feet under me at this new job, and the pandemic happened. And it was a really, really stressful time trying to, you know, handle all these things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ben Espinoza: So in April of 2020 I started to get these bumps on my hands. And like any thoughtful, discerning, wise adult, I decided to go to Dr. Google and WebMD --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

Ben Espinoza: -- to tell me what was wrong with me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course. Your medical team.

Ben Espinoza: Exactly, exactly. So it came about that these bumps on my hands were just stress bumps. I put some lotion on it. That was okay, it was gone. And then about a month later I started to get these eye twitches. And I started to catastrophize about these things, Jennifer. And I was like, wow, is something really, really wrong with me?

So then after that, after I got the bumps relieved off my hands, after my eyes started twitching -- stopped twitching rather, I started to get this incredible back pain. And it just emanated to every single part of my body. So there I was in the thick of the pandemic, living with my in-laws, 'cause they live locally where the university is, trying to understand what's going on in the world. Just a really, really stressful time.

And, you know, when you go through really stressful times like that, Jennifer, you're not sleeping very much. And if you don't sleep very much, you know, reality and your imagination start to blend together in really unhealthy ways. So I was like, okay, I have to go see a doctor.

So I went and saw a doctor, and he ran a bunch of tests for me and told me that I had a clean bill of health and I was perfectly fine. And I was like, "Look, man, like, my life is falling apart here. My entire body hurts. Something bad is happening." And he was like, "Look, Ben, I think that too many good things are happening to you all at once. You are very, very busy, you are very, very stressed out, and you wrap all of that in a global pandemic, that's a recipe for disaster. You need to go get some help."

So I started to enter therapy, I started to enter some spiritual direction. And I've been a Christian my whole life and was really blessed by reading Scripture and reading what God had to say about Sabbath and solitude and rest, but it really didn't mean anything to me until I had that whole experience.

So the book that you have in your hands, "Good News About Self-Care," I talk about this journey of going from a very, very ambitious kind of person, graduating from college quickly, getting my doctorate quickly, getting all these different kinds of raises and promotions, and writing books at an early age, and realizing I had no idea how to care for myself, and in 2020 I paid the price.

So that's the story. That's where it came from. And the book is really about my journey and really stuff that I'm still working through, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Well, it is a lifelong work-through, because you don't change your inherent drive and your inherent intellect and what motivates you in life --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but you have to learn how to mitigate some of the harder benefits --

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of that kind of personality.

Ben Espinoza: Definitely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, you're speaking my language. This is my family. We're academic, we're -- I get you. I totally --

Ben Espinoza: Good. I like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I get you. Sadly, I get you. And that's part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation, because I think we're not the only ones.

Ben Espinoza: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes we think something's wrong with us. You know, here you had all these good things happening. And you're trying to do your best for your people, for your family, for the Lord, for your career --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and you're falling apart physically and you think, what is wrong with me? And the answer is nothing.

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's learning how to steward this. So I'm glad you've written this book. And we're going to unpack it.

So in this book that you've written, "Good News About Self-Care," you debunk some of the biggest misunderstandings that Christians often have about self-care. And so I'd like you to talk to us about what the myths we have about self-care are, because sometimes we think, well, I shouldn't need this if I've got Jesus.

Ben Espinoza: Right? Exactly. No, that's a really good question.

So some of the myths that I see out in culture, but particularly Christian culture today, is you don't need self-care. You are a sinner, you've got to repent, you got to give your life to Jesus and then give yourself over to the church and the ministry of other people. And there's a lot of truth to that. So that's one sort of idea that's out there.

The other idea is that self-care is sort of resistance against, you know, an oppressive society that just demands all of us all the time, and self-care is really sort of a mini form of resistance. And really I say these are all pretty good ideas, we don't need to throw any of them out.

But at the same time when I look at Jesus' life and ministry, this is somebody who is teaching, he's preaching, he's healing the sick, he's feeding the poor, he's preaching and proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom of God, and yet there are times when he decides to retreat to spend time with his Father to get more wisdom and insight and clarity.

There are times when he's enjoying fellowship with his disciples, with people in Levi -- Matthew, the tax collector's house. There are times when he's just enjoying fellowship with people. And he also had limits too. He understood that he was there for a certain amount of time for a very specific purpose.

So some of the myths out there are you shouldn't care about self-care because Jesus didn't care about self-care, you know, he gave his life for us. And yet when you look at Jesus' life and ministry, there is a lot of self-care that is taking place.

One of the things that I struggle with too, Jennifer, is the Apostle Paul. I mean, he's shipwrecked, he's cold, he's hungry, he's getting beaten up all the time, and yet you can see in his own life that he's spending time with people, that he's encouraging people to bear with one another, to love one another, to care for one another, just as Christ has called us to love and care for one another too. So those are some of the myths that I see out there.

And I'll say this too. That there are a lot of folks, I think, that like the idea of self-care, but don't know exactly where to start. And my hope in this book is, hey, baby steps. Let's just start to focus on some things that you know that you need to do better in your relationship with God and in your self-care. Let's just start walking this path together.

So those are a few of the ideas that I see out there in Christian culture today.

Jennifer Rothschild: I agree with all that, Ben. And I was thinking too, for me, one of the things that's hard for me -- I've gone through seasons where I'm like, oh, well, self-care is -- it's just indulgent. It's just selfish. Like, how can I waste time, valuable time, when people are dying and going to hell --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I just care about, you know, getting a facial.

But what I'm hearing from you is that self-care -- it's a lot more than bubble baths and facials and spa days or naps or whatever.

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think you're talking about something deeper.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So give us an understanding about what real self-soul care is.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely. So one of the things that you see in culture today is a focus on self-care as caring for the physical. As you said, it's Jacuzzis, it's bubble baths, it's facials, it's eating good food, resting, those kinds of things. And those are all very, very important. I do not want to, you know, diminish the importance of going to the spa and just having and just enjoying that time. But what I've found is that true self-care is really finding your joy and purpose in a relationship with the Lord.

So when you look at my book, there are four quadrants that I talk about, four different relationships. Number one is your relationship with God. Making sure that you're in the Word every single day, making sure that you're in communication with the Lord through prayer, making sure that you are spending time in worship and thanking God for everything that you have. So your relationship with God really, really does come first, and then you can talk about your relationship with yourself. So this is where I talk about physical self-care, emotional self-care, because there's a lot of emotional untangling that I find a lot of us really need to do.

And then I also talk about playfulness. And I coined this term "playlessness," because there are times when we're not very playful. We forget to enjoy life, enjoy the good things that God has given us, and I think we suffer as a result. So you have to care for your relationship with God, because if you don't have that right, if you're not in the Word every day, if you're not praying every day, if you're not living a life filled with worship or gratitude, then everything falls apart. It's like a house of cards. So you start with your relationship with the Lord, make sure that is strong. Then we can start to look at the physical, the emotional, the playful self-care.

And then we can start to look at our relationship with society. Because the messages that we get in society today, Jennifer, are, you know, you are not more than what you can produce. You are only as valuable as your contribution to society, right? And yet the Lord says that we are image bearers created in his image, worthy of respect and dignity and love and care. So this is why I talk about Sabbath as, like, a form of resistance against some of those rhythms -- right? -- to work the 70, 80 hours a week while neglecting all the other different kinds of relationships that we have, relationship with God, relationship with ourselves, relationship with our family.

I talk about putting limitations on our technology. Because social media can do some good things, as we know, but it can also be detrimental to our relationships and our sense of self-worth too.

And then finally I talk about our relationships -- right? -- our relationship with our mission in life. I talk about how many of us like the idea of having a life's mission, I was born to do this, and yet the reality is at different times in our lives we are called to do different things. It's, I have young kids, so I'm called to do this here; or my kids are out of the house, I'm called to do this; or this specific opportunity came up, I'm called to do this. We're called to love God and love neighbor wholeheartedly, but how that's manifested in our work and in our relationships changes over time. So we have to give attention to that. We have to care about our relationship with work and getting good work-life balance, making sure it's not overtaking our personal lives and our spiritual lives.

And then finally I talk about relationships that we might want to walk away from. You know, it's really difficult for us, Jennifer, because as Christians, you know, we're called to love and care for everybody, but there are specific instances in Scripture where you see that it is okay and almost preferable to walk away from certain relationships.

So to get back to your original question, then, true, deep self-care starts with a strong relationship with God, relationship with his Word, in prayer, with worship, with gratitude, and then everything else flows from there. Your sense of self-worth, your self-care, physical, emotional self-care, your relationship with society, how you interact with the rhythms of society and your relationship with other folks, that all stems from a strong relationship with God.

And as I mentioned, when you look at the secular resources that are out there, they almost always talk about the physical self-care. And they'll talk about your life's mission and knowing your limits and work-life balance and all that, and that's good. But I'm saying that unless you have a strong relationship with the Lord, everything else is gonna fall apart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, everything else just becomes like a numbing gel --

Ben Espinoza: It's true. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for the real problem --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know?

Ben Espinoza: That's a good way to put it.

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: I will never forget sitting outside Dr. Engels' office right there in Borbe Hall at Palm Beach Atlantic University where he helped me take my statistic exams. Now, some people call statistics "sadistics." And let me just say, there is a reason for that. It was hard. And this was back in the day when computers and accessible software, they just weren't existent, or at least not what they are today. And so being blind, I literally could not navigate all the charts and formulas to pull off statistics.

So Dr. Engels, he would sit outside his office, because he was my stats professor, and he would read the exam to me. He would help me navigate charts and he would read me formulas so that I could take each of those tests. Amazing, right?

Well, that professor, he perfectly captures the spirit of the university where I graduated, Palm Beach Atlantic University.

PBA is a relationally caring, academically challenging, oh, and spiritually enriching university that you need to know about for your kids and your grandkids. But can I just say this? Palm Beach Atlantic University isn't just for your kids or grandkids. It can be for you also.

PBA offers online courses that you can enroll in bachelor's and master level programs that can fit your schedule, your goals, and your timeline. You gotta check it out, all in this amazing, caring Christian community.

So go to 413podcast.com/PBA to learn all you need to know. I promise you're gonna love, just like I know you're loving this conversation, so let's get back to it.

Jennifer Rothschild: As I'm hearing you explain this too, what I like is you kind of flip the paradigm upside down. Because a lot of times we think self-care is just, okay, I need to change my calendar, I need to have some downtime, or whatever it might be. But what you're saying is self-care is a mindset.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so to begin, Ben, with a relationship with the Lord and worship, I'll be honest, sometimes to me I feel like, okay, that's my duty, that's my spiritual discipline.

Ben Espinoza: That's right. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But what you're saying is if you really want to care for yourself, then you seek God and then you get your soul needs met right there first and foremost. And, of course, what blesses God blesses you.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, wow, what a good paradigm shift. And so I want you to make the connection, then, for us between living purposefully, caring for ourselves, and caring for and serving others. Okay? Make that connection. How do those things all go together?

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely. So let me go back to the life and ministry of Jesus. So as I mentioned, he's busy all the time. He's teaching, he's healing, he's preaching, he's recruiting his disciples, he's standing up to the Pharisees. He has a very, very robust life and ministry, and yet, as I mentioned, he retreats often to have talks with his father.

And to me, that is just so important. We often miss that. Because sometimes we'll say, okay, his business is really the business of the Kingdom, and then when he has some downtime, he'll go and talk with his Father. But in reality, one of the things that I talk about in the book is what if that time of solitude and prayer fueled his ministry?

And I began to think about this quote from Martin Luther where he says, "I'm too busy not to pray." And that was a paradigm shift for me. Right? It was as though -- you know, prayer and that relationship with God and that self-care sort of was, like, an aside for Jesus' ministry. But what if it fueled everything?

And I started to think about the two greatest commandments: love God with everything that you are, and then the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And when you look at the teachings of Jesus, it's there multiple times in the Gospels. He says do unto others as they would have them do unto you. So there really is that stewardship of self.

And one of the things I talk about in the book too -- and actually, the original title of the book, the one that I pitched to my publisher, was "Honoring the Divine Image." Because when you look at us created in the image of God for a purpose worthy of value and dignity and care and love, we are called to steward the great resource that God has given us, which is our bodies, which is ourselves, right? And if we don't steward ourselves, if we don't steward our bodies and our souls and our minds and our relationships well, then nothing that we do can be stewarded, right?

So one of the things that we talk about a lot sort of in self-care circles is the analogy of the airplane mask, right? So, like, you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, putting on our mask first?

Ben Espinoza: Exactly. Put on your mask first before you help other people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Espinoza: And it's such a cliche, but you know what, there's so much truth to that. Because unless you are healthy, unless you are prayed up, unless you understand God's Word, unless -- things are going well in your life, unless you care for yourself in a deep way, you're not going to be able to care for others. So that's the connection that I would make, Jennifer, is as image bearers, we need to make sure that we are in a strong relationship with God, that we are caring for ourselves in a deep way so that we can care for others, otherwise we're ministering out of something that we don't have.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. And then it becomes counterfeit --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and fake and just the precursor to burnout.

Ben Espinoza: It's true. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, speaking of burnout -- okay? -- let's go back to 2020.

Ben Espinoza: Oh, wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're in the midst of all of this. Now here we are six years later, that little baby is five or six years old.

Ben Espinoza: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm curious, now that you have gone through the school of hard knocks, learning the reality of all of this, where are you now? What do you do with your life? How do you in a practical way experience self-care? And I believe it is a discipline. How do you exercise the discipline of self-care?

Ben Espinoza: Well, that's good. Yeah, so I'm very intentional, so every morning is prayer, it's Bible study, it's writing in a gratitude journal that I have about the things that I'm grateful for. And I pray for people in my church, pray for people in my community. If I say I'm going to pray for you, I have to write it down so I remember. So that morning routine is very, very important.

Most of the time it's going and hitting up my punching bag. You know, somebody asked me, "So you're a boxer?" And I said, "I don't think I'd call it that. I just put on gloves and I go punch something for 20 minutes."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Ben Espinoza: It sounds really angry, but it's -- actually, I get a lot of joy out of it. You burn a lot of calories and everything. So it's really trying, like, to follow my own advice here of making sure I have a strong, solid foundation with God in the very beginning of the day, making sure that I'm caring for myself and getting in the right sort of physical head space, and then looking at my relationship with society and thinking more about different pauses that I can have throughout my day. If I'm in the middle of a big project, I need to take a break or two to remind myself, okay, I'm more than my project. You know, if this succeeds, amen, I'm so glad for that. If it fails, I am more than what I produce, right?

And then also it comes back to your relationships and making sure that I have strong, healthy relationships, people that can build me up in my walk with Christ, who can hold me accountable. So, you know, I have several friends that I go to for that. There are a couple friends I talk to weekly just as an accountability measure. Hey, what's going well? What are you struggling with? How can I pray for you? These kinds of things.

And I say this at the very end of my book, Jennifer. I'm not perfect at this, sort of that -- like we'd talked about, when you're an academic, when you're in ministry, you want to serve, you want to do, you want to create, you want to build, and that tendency is just so real to all of us. So it's something that I'm still working through.

And even when I was writing this book -- I mention this at the very end of the book. Maybe I'm too honest in my book, Jennifer. I don't know. But I mentioned this. It's like, you know, I probably stayed up way too late to write the chapter on physical self-care. It's like, you know what, I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't do that. So I'm learning. I'm learning.

Like you said, Jennifer, it's one of those things that's a -- it is a lifelong pursuit of learning how to do well. But that's the relationship with Christ, right? It's something that we're going to be continuing to hone throughout the rest of our lives. So I'm nowhere near perfect, but those are some of the rhythms that I have in my life today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't think any of us want to read a book from someone who's standing up at an ivory tower saying, "I have perfected this --

Ben Espinoza: Oh, exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- let me lead you therefore."

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think we'd rather have a guide walking us through who's just maybe a step ahead and stumbles every now and then --

Ben Espinoza: That's what I tell people.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and so I appreciate that honesty.

Ben Espinoza: I'm glad.

Jennifer Rothschild: I appreciate that honesty. And I think we all do struggle. And you know what? I think it's a worthy struggle too, Ben --

Ben Espinoza: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we want to live in that tension of --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of serving Christ well, serving others well, and still taking care of us. We don't want it to be so easy to just self-indulge or give up our lives in a martyrdom sort of way --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for others.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it's a good tension to have.

I appreciate the practicality of the book too, so --

Ben Espinoza: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. I can't wait. We're going to have at the very end, y'all listening, a link to his book, to Ben's book, "The Good News About Self-Care."

And by the way, one more thing. If I were on your publicity committee or your PubCo, I would have so chosen the "Honoring the Image of God In You." I love that concept. Or the Divine Image --

Ben Espinoza: Noted.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- whatever you called it. I love that. I love that.

Ben Espinoza: "Honoring the Divine Image," yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: "Honoring the Divine Image." That's what we're doing when we take care of ourselves. Yeah --

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we belong to him.

Okay, we're going to get to our last question, brother.

Ben Espinoza: Great.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So you addressed very clearly, which I appreciate, what your book explores, which is this self-care exploration through these dimensions of our relationship with God first, then self, then society and others. Okay. So some of us have listened, and we got some Type A's. They are taking notes, they're like, okay, I gotta do this, I gotta do this.

Ben Espinoza: Oh, yeah. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So let's end with this. How can we begin to apply this, like today when the podcast ends, without getting totally overwhelmed?

Ben Espinoza: I appreciate that. So what I would do is just baby steps. We know what we struggle with. If you're not in God's Word every day, get in God's Word five, ten minutes. Just pick one of the Gospels, start reading through that. Start to submit your life to what God has to say through his Word. Start small.

If you don't have a regular prayer life, go ahead and start praying for a few things. If you don't have a regular worship life, if you don't have a gratitude journal, start doing those kinds of things. Start with baby steps. You know, it doesn't need to take a lot of time. You know, if we have a lot of time to spend in God's Word, great. That would be wonderful. But I'd encourage people to start with these small things.

And we know our tendencies, right? If your tendency is to go, go, go, go, go, stay up late, wake up early, then I would encourage you, try and focus on your sleep patterns, right? What's keeping you up late? What's getting you up early? You know, go see a doctor. Get a checkup if you haven't. Really figure out if you have, like, some sort of physical issue going on.

And I would also look at your rhythms of Sabbath. And when I talk about Sabbath, people are like, okay. You know, I'm so busy. I'm working three or four jobs just to try to make ends meet here, Ben. Are you asking me to take a day off? And I usually say, if you can, go ahead and do that and spend it wisely. But if you can't, you know, try and find pockets of time where you can spend recovering that sense of joy and recovering a relationship with the Lord there.

And then finally I would say look at the rhythms of your life and say, okay, what gives me deep joy, what gives me purpose, and what detracts from that, and really do that work of evaluation. So it doesn't need to be perfection. I'm still working on this six years later, Jennifer.

But I would encourage somebody, as soon as you get off the call, if you haven't cared for any of these dimensions, your relationship with God, yourself, with society, with others, then start to look at one of those and start to really try and figure out what rhythms you can get into your life today that will help. And start small and be gracious with yourself, because you're not going to perfect it. I still haven't. Jennifer, as holy as you are, you will not.

Jennifer Rothschild: No way.

Ben Espinoza: And neither will any of your listeners. But we can try. We can do it because it really is about stewarding this gift that God has given to the world, which is us.

So those are a few ways I would say. Just take baby steps. Go easy on yourself. And I think over time those habits are going to form and shape you in a powerful way.

KC Wright: Think of the dimensions he listed. Which one needs the most attention? Pick one and start small.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's a good word. And like Ben said, be gracious to yourself, you know? Most importantly, take baby steps. First and foremost, though, you start in God's Word, even if it's just five minutes a day, and then do what the Word says and pray.

And, you know, I loved what he said too, KC, about, like, going to bed early, getting up early, because I think there's some of you out there, you know, you may be a late-night person and an early riser all at once. And so -- you also could be a person who maybe just drives in the fast lane all the time.

You know, I thought as Ben was saying all that -- my brother Lawson is a therapist. He's fantastic. And one of his things he always challenges his client, consider your opposite impulse. So, like, if you're always going 100 miles per hour, what is the opposite impulse of that? Slowing down. If you stay up late and get up early, what's the opposite impulse of that? Well, you go to bed a little earlier or you sleep a little later, whatever. But I think that's an important thing to consider.

KC Wright: This is a book that needs to be read for sure. This can be your first step actually to some self-care. And because we care about your self, we're giving one away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: So simply go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/397 to register to win and read a transcript. And, of course, you can go straight to Jennifer's Insta @jennrothschild to enter to win Ben's book "The Good News About Self-Care."

All right, I will say this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Say it.

KC Wright: You did this already today. You showed good care for yourself by joining us here at The 4:13.

Jennifer Rothschild: True.

KC Wright: You are caring for your soul every time you tune in, and we are so thankful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: So until next week, care well for yourself because God cares for you. One translation says he cares for you affectionately. He cares for you so deeply. You can be a good steward of your self-care, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: Okay. If you're going to do some self-care today, J.R., what are you going to do?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, what am I going to do?

KC Wright: What are you going to do to bless yourself?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm going to eat a grilled cheese sandwich.

KC Wright: Because you do work all the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do work all the time. But you know what? I like to work.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, it brings me joy.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I love grilled cheese sandwiches. I'm gonna eat a grilled cheese sandwich. And you know what I do, KC?

KC Wright: Yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: I put a slice of cheddar, I put a slice of Colby, and I put a slice of pepper jack.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: That right there is some self-care.

KC Wright: Oh, that is.