4:13 Podcast: Can I Care for Others Without Burning Out? With Shaunti Feldhahn [Episode 376]

Shaunti Feldhahn: For years, way before the pandemic, that mental health issues had been rising. And, you know, sort of there's been a scourge of anxiety and depression and trauma and addiction and marriage issues and all these things that we've always dealt with, but the numbers have been getting more and more, and at the same time the number of pastors and counselors has been staying basically the same.

And so ultimately to some degree, there's a bit of a supply and demand problem, especially because over the last, like, 40 or 50 years we've become more uncomfortable with, like, lay people or pastors addressing some of these mental and emotional health issues.

Jennifer Rothschild: People are hurting today at a scale that we have never seen before. They are dealing with an onslaught of issues like anxiety or grief or mental health issues or family troubles, and even hopelessness.

And here's the thing, pastors and counselors, they can't see everybody in need. But there is a solution. We have an incredible opportunity to bring healing to the hurting, take the load off of the pastor and the counselor, and grow healthy church communities of care. And we can do it all without burning out.

So today, author and social researcher Shaunti Feldhahn is back on the 4:13, and she's got a brilliant way to care for others. You can care for others, along with those in your church, and you can do it with empathy, wisdom, grace, and, of course, like I already said, without burning out. So don't miss this chance for your church and you to become a place where people don't just hear about hope; they experience it.

KC, it's time.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends, Jennifer here. Just two friends and one topic and zero stress. And our goal, as you know, is to help you live the "I Can" life, to make you know through Christ and his Scripture and his truth and his spirit, that whatever you face or however you feel, you can do it through Christ's power.

So thankful for that truth. Because even with what we're going to talk about today, there's so many needs that we see and so many needs that we have, to know that it is Christ's power within us gives us all we need.

Shaunti's been on the show before, and we love Shaunti. She's a friend of mine. I've known her for many years. We shared the same publisher back in the day. And she's just a wise, gentle soul. And, you know, she, with social research, points out problems. But she also gives solutions, and that makes me happy.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But as I was thinking about what we're talking about, KC, one of the things that helps me with my mental health is laughing. Like, it is so therapeutic. So a few weeks ago I said to Phil -- I was -- okay, let me put it this way.

KC Wright: Okay, okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love Nate Bargatze.

KC Wright: Oh, yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, I love him.

KC Wright: You know he's coming to Springfield.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I know.

KC Wright: Okay, okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I was looking to buy tickets. So we got tickets. We're going in February to see him.

KC Wright: Yeah, you are.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm so excited. And his tour is called Big Dumb Eyes, and I'm like, I can relate. And so I love him. He makes me laugh. And he's clean, y'all. He's so clean.

Okay. So as I was looking for Nate, though, a few weeks ago, something on Google came up about Leanne Morgan. Now, I have got to tell you, I laugh so hard at Leanne Morgan.

KC Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And, you know, she even did a Netflix sitcom series.

KC Wright: I binge watched all of them.

Jennifer Rothschild: I did too.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I laughed so hard.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Even Phil laughed. And sometimes he's very reserved at his laughter. I mean, it was hilarious. So when I saw that she was going to be four hours away from us, I said, "Phil, let's go." Okay, this was on a Thursday --

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- her show was on a Friday.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: I said, "Let's take the Barbie camper and let's just go." And he was like, "But there's a football game on." And I said, "And?" "Let's go," he said. I said, "You could tape football, but we can't see Leanne live." Okay, we went, KC.

KC Wright: Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was spontaneous, it was fun. But I am telling you, that woman made me laugh so hard.

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is so funny, and she's so clean, and she's so dear. And you know what I loved about her? She just loved the audience.

KC Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You could tell she loves the audience.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do believe she loves the Lord too, just some of the things that she said.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But she is just divine. So, Leanne, I know that you're probably never going to listen to the 4:13. But if someone who knows you and loves you does, that you, that someone, you better tell Leanne that I love her and I want to be her BFF. Okay? Because she makes me laugh.

KC Wright: Oh, same.

Jennifer Rothschild: But she doesn't even have to be funny if we go to coffee. Like, she could just be boring and I'm okay with it.

KC Wright: She's not even trying. It's just who she is.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's just her.

KC Wright: It's how she's wired. And the whole world is cheering her on because we're all seeing her dream be fulfilled.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so precious.

KC Wright: But she'll talk about her past, and she's -- but then she'll say, "But I've been washed in the blood."

Jennifer Rothschild: She does. She is redeemed.

KC Wright: She's redeemed from her past, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's beautiful. I love her. I love her. But anyway, so --

KC Wright: We're big fans.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- laughing just really is therapeutic to me. And, I mean, isn't that what Proverbs says? A merry heart is what? Good medicine.

KC Wright: And you're a little joy bomb yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I try.

KC Wright: I sit in those Fresh Grounded Faith conferences and I'm laughing hard at you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, life is better when you laugh. Life is so much better. In fact, we're doing a tour in the spring. And if you guys want to know more about that, please follow me on socials or sign up for my Java with Jennifer email. You'll see it on my website at jenniferrothschild.com, or it'll be there in the transcript.

But we're doing a tour in the spring where we're going to different cities, and it's going to be based on heaven. But the whole idea is to step into the joy of heaven.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so literally I have two goals: you laugh and you learn. That's it. Those are our two goals. It's going to be a great night. And we'll be all over the southeast, so check us out.

Anyway, I think that's a good way to care for our souls, and it also equips us and helps us just to be able to care for others well. And that's what we're going to talk about, but in a very practical way. So if you are a caregiver, don't worry, this is going to give you hope if you're tired. If you feel like you can't do one more thing or you're going to burn out, don't worry, this is going to give you hope. You're going to love this. So let's introduce Shaunti.

KC Wright: Shaunti Feldhahn is a best-selling author, popular speaker, and social researcher known for her ground-breaking work to help people flourish in life, faith, and leadership and relationships. Her research-based books such as "The Good News About Marriage," "For Women Only," "For Men Only," and a book called "Find Rest" are filled with surprising and practical insights, selling more than 3 million copies in 25 languages. She and her husband, Jeff, are some of our favorites around here at the 4:13. So let's listen in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, Shaunti, I'm glad -- we finally had to make ourselves stop talking so that we could talk to our 4:13ers --

Shaunti Feldhahn: I know. I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we are friends. And y'all, I -- well, I mentioned this in the intro earlier, but I've known Shaunti for -- what do you think, Shaunti, 20-ish years?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, more than 20 years, probably, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We had the same publisher early on and -- anyway, it's been a gift. It's been a gift to have a friendship with you and Jeff. And I just am grateful we get to talk again with all my friends. I love sharing some of my favorite people with my other favorite people.

So we're going to dive in because you have a new book, "When Hurting People Come To Church." Ooh, what a title.

So in your book you describe that there is this growing mental health crisis. And lots of us listening right now, we can relate, because we know the struggle of, like, trying to find help for someone we love. And then sometimes we are just like -- we feel powerless, we don't know where to start, or, if we do find a counselor, we're like, oh, my gosh, it's going to take eight months to get them in, or they're not taking clients. You know what I mean? It's such a crisis.

So I'm curious if -- in your research and observation, if you know why this is such a crisis today. Why is it such an issue?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, this is going to really oversimplify something, but really it boils down to the fact that for years, way before the pandemic, that mental health issues had been rising. And, you know, sort of there's been a scourge of anxiety and depression and trauma and addiction and marriage issues and all these things that we've always dealt with, but the numbers have been getting more and more, and at the same time the number of pastors and counselors has been staying basically the same.

And so ultimately, to some degree, there's a bit of a supply and demand problem, especially because over the last, like, 40 or 50 years, we've become more uncomfortable with, like, lay people or pastors addressing some of these mental and emotional health issues. And so it's like, okay, you know, the best thing I can do for my friend is to refer out, right? It's to find a counselor. And yet, as I mentioned, there just aren't enough counselors.

There's a portal you can actually go on on one of the government websites and say, like, how many psychiatrists do we have compared to the demand, or how many counselors? And right now we have 109,000 fewer counselors than we need today, and that number is only going to increase to, like, 250,000 in the next ten years.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shaunti Feldhahn: So there is really, truly just a lot of hurting people. And many people want to help, many counselors, many pastors, there just aren't enough.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Well, to me, there's a couple things too. One, a lot of times insurance doesn't cover counseling, and so people are --

Shaunti Feldhahn: Or they don't take insurance.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or they don't take insurance, right. So it's very hard to justify when you think, okay, I'll just figure it out myself. So I think the cost is an issue.

But I think also then -- like when you said, you know, we maybe as non-professionals, we get a little shy because we're like, well, I don't want to say the wrong thing or --

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so -- and there is a degree. There's a reason it is a profession, because there does need to be professional training.

But I'm curious with the role of the church. Okay? Because lots of us in this conversation, we go to church faithfully. And you say that the church has a vital role in responding to this mental health crisis. So I would love for you to kind of paint a picture, like, what is the church doing now? How are we responding right now to this crisis? And then let's talk about how we could maybe get better and more comfortable at this.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah. So we ended up doing a big national study of pastors. I know that's a huge shock to you, Jennifer, that I did a big research study on this. But my co-author, Dr. Jim Sells, who's a clinical psychologist, he's a professor at Regent University and is the leader of this initiative that I want to explain in a minute called The Church Cares.

But we wrote this book together and did this research together and interviewed and surveyed more than 2,000 pastors of all streams of the church. So, like, I really wanted to cast a very, very wide net, you know, Protestant and Catholic and black churches and white churches and charismatic churches and -- you know, just the whole spectrum.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shaunti Feldhahn: And what we found is that 88% of pastors think that if there is a psychological issue that comes to them, their primary role is to find a good counselor. And that's -- like I said, that's great. Like, Jim, my co-author on this, he's a clinical psychologist. He's trained these Christian counselors for 30 years. But like we were saying, there's just not enough.

And so what we're trying to do is to cast a vision to say, I wonder if it's both/and. I wonder if we say, you know what, the folks who need the most help, who need that specialized care, absolutely. If you have -- for example, probably many of your listeners have either gone through something like postpartum depression or know someone who has, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Yeah.

Shaunti Feldhahn: So when you have someone who is dealing with this postpartum depression and can't get out of bed -- and maybe the husband is worried about the baby, right? Like, oh, my word, you need a specialist. You need to find somebody who can provide some skills and sort of see, like, oh, my goodness, what do we do?

But what if it's not like a really significant situation like that that requires specialized care? What if it's your mom died? Of course, you're sad, your mom died.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. You've got grief. You're dealing with grief.

Shaunti Feldhahn: You've got --exactly. And you need somebody to go to coffee with. And maybe if it's gotten complex, sure, maybe you do need some additional help.

But what would happen if the church built a system where in addition to referring somebody out to a counselor, where it might take weeks to get help, that we weren't scared of that? What happens if in addition we say, you know what -- to the woman who has significant postpartum depression, you know, there's a group of people who have been trained in just basic listening inside the church, and I happen to know that one of those women had postpartum depression herself, and she would love to have coffee with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: See, I love this because -- and I'm going to ask you -- I want you to explain this Cares Initiative also, Church Cares Initiative.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because, Shaunti, I'm reminded, when you say all this, Phil and I, early in our marriage, maybe we were three years in, and we were really stuck. It was not pretty. It was not good. And we went to a counselor. And I'll never forget Larry, the trained counselor, saying to me, "I wouldn't have a job if the church were trained to do theirs." And that's what he's talking about. Because we were not in a catastrophic situation. We just needed a wiser adult, another married person, to kind of say, okay, let's deal with y'all's selfishness. Because that was our root problem, you know.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: But the point is, the church is equipped because we have the Holy Spirit. So let's move. I want to hear about this care strategy and the Church Cares Initiative. So explain what it is and tell us how it could help us.

Shaunti Feldhahn: So think of this idea of as you get more need for specialization, you pursue more specialization, right? Like, the most significant issues get referred to the pastor, and the pastor probably refers them to the counselor the way that they've been doing. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Shaunti Feldhahn: But today, all of the issues get referred to the pastor and the counselor. Any issue in the church, the pastor is trying to meet all those needs, and they can't, so they refer out to the counselors, who can't meet all those needs either.

And so what would happen if we said let's coordinate this by levels sort of, and that we had somebody who sort of stood in the middle of that as a -- we call that person -- whatever their title is, whoever they are, volunteer, staff member, whatever, we call them just a coordinator who can receive those issues that come in. And, you know, the husband of the woman with the postpartum depression reaches out, talks to the coordinator, and she goes, yes, let's get you in to see the pastor, and we're going to refer you to a professional.

But the woman who has the grief talks to the coordinator, and the coordinator says, you know, I have somebody who's been trained in listening who would just love to walk alongside you. And, yeah, if it -- if it looks like you need more care, absolutely. But truly, most people, once they actually understand the situation, it's kind of like what you were talking about with you and Phil, right? It's the -- many of these people, what they really want and really need isn't the more specialized, you know, the higher-end skillset development. They just need a friend. They need somebody to walk alongside. And so that's the vision.

Because one of the things that we don't realize, we don't really grapple with, is that the professionals, they're not allowed to walk alongside. Like, if you're seeing a professional licensed counselor, that person may deeply care about you. If that's a Christian counselor, they are working in the power of the Holy Spirit, they are trying to help, but they cannot come to your house for dinner on Thursday.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Shaunti Feldhahn: They will lose their license. Whereas, the church better come to your house for dinner on Thursday. We want friends. And imagine you could get those marriage mentors who invite you over for dinner. That can be more valuable in some cases than a counselor.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Well, and I think what you're saying, too, is there's wisdom, Holy Spirit wisdom, and some genuine guidelines with what you all are creating here.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is helpful because that does help reduce our overwhelm. So as I'm hearing this, I'm thinking, oh, what a beautiful picture this would be. So I'd like to know that. So let's say that a church has -- they're applying this Church Cares Initiative. So what would it look like if the church really embraced this vision? What would the church look like?

Shaunti Feldhahn: So picture this. Like, I love this. This is the church returning to being the church and not being afraid of -- that we've professionalized the care of distress and just coming alongside.

So imagine, for example, what it would look like if any Sunday morning you had -- for example, somebody comes up to the pastor. Like, I was just interviewing a pastor a couple of weeks ago, and he said, "A woman came up to me on Sunday morning after I preached, and I said something about sexual abuse in my message. And she had tears on her cheeks and she said, 'Pastor, I dealt with sexual abuse as a child, and it's affecting everything in my life. It's affecting my marriage, my mental health. Like, I don't know what to do.'"

And the pastor said, "I just felt so helpless, like, okay, come see me." Because she was like, "Can I come see you?" And he said, "Absolutely." But he's like, "In my head, I know I'm just going to refer her to a counselor."

And I said, Okay, now picture something slightly different, but very different. Picture that this dear woman comes up to you and you're able to say, Oh, my goodness, I am so sorry that you went through that. I am so sorry that that has impacted you. You know what? Yes, absolutely I'm willing to talk to you. It's going to be a few weeks because, you know, I've got so many people on the schedule. But in the meantime, I'm going to have Bonnie call you tomorrow. Bonnie is our care coordinator. And she is going to hear your story, she's going to listen and she's going to see, can we find somebody to walk alongside you?

As a matter of fact, we have a group of trained listeners, people who've just gone through just a little bit of extra training on what does it mean to listen well. And I think Bonnie will be able to tell you, I think, one or two of the women have this same kind of story and want to walk alongside, so you'll get that call tomorrow.

And then these women step up -- or men, if it's a guy -- and they step up. And there are people who are like, I'm not a counselor, but I know how to care. And imagine what the church would look like if all of us say, You know what? All of us have a bit of that responsibility. Maybe -- you know, what we're proposing and what the Church Cares Initiative is officially doing is to help churches build a layer of lay care that -- where people are just trained in basic, basic listening.

But all of us, even if we don't have that training, all of us have the responsibility to say, Oh, my goodness, this couple is struggling. You know what? Maybe they get referred to a counselor, but maybe they need to come over for dinner on Thursday night. And imagine the difference that this would make to the body of Christ and to our communities to have the church really, truly be a light to the world in this very needy area.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes we hesitate with those things because we're like, It's messy. I don't know what to do or say. And what you're saying is -- I've heard you say it so many times -- we're listening. And so you have written actually in your book that you don't need a counseling license to love people well.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So is that what you're talking about, that it starts with listening and just allowing yourself to be in someone's life? What does that look like?

Shaunti Feldhahn: It does. One of the things that all of us get a little squirrely about is like, I don't know what to say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Right? Well, you know what? One of the things that we found and that many studies have found over the years is it's not what you say, it's what you listen to that matters.

It's really interesting, my co-author, Jim, he says -- and I love this. He said, you know, the best counselor -- and I'm using "counselor" loosely, right? "The best counselor I've ever known" -- this is his words -- "was my grandmother, who lived in the suburbs of Chicago. She had an eighth-grade education, a coffee pot, a kitchen table, and a Bible." And she counseled so many people, but it wasn't counseling the way we think of it. It's listening. It's saying, "I'm so sorry." It's being able to enter into someone's pain and to know that you don't have to have all the answers. I mean, because we don't. We're not going to.

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't. And only one does, and that's Christ.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And he's given us his wisdom.

You know, Shaunti, what you're describing too, to me, is living out the one another's in the New Testament, you know?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're bearing one another's burdens. I mean, that's just -- you're right, we would look like the church is supposed to look.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Look like -- well, and so many of us try.

Jennifer Rothschild: We want to, yes.

Shaunti Feldhahn: But there is -- we want to, yes. It's just so many of us feel we don't have the -- we need permission, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Shaunti Feldhahn: And I love -- I actually tell this story in the book because it cracked me up...

Our pastor in graduate school -- I still remember him saying this. He did church services on campus in graduate school, so there wasn't a church building, right? They had a little office, held services on campus. And he said -- this was in Massachusetts. And he said the Massachusetts tax assessment group sent a tax assessor to the address for the church. He walked in, and it was the office -- right? -- this little tiny staff office.

And he goes to the pastor very suspicious and he says, "Where's the church?" Like, 'cause, you know, they're trying to check and see, are you trying to scam the -- you know, is this really a real church? He goes, "Where's the church?" And the pastor said, "I was legitimately confused for a minute." And he said -- the pastor said, "Well, some of them are at work and some of them are at school." And he's like, "The guy was asking about a building," and he's like, "I was thinking, where's the church? Where's the people?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shaunti Feldhahn: And that's us. We are the church. We are the body of Christ. And all of us have to grapple with this responsibility, but this opportunity that God has handed us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's a privilege to be Christ to someone.

And I was a psych major, so, of course, this really thrills me.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, no kidding?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shaunti Feldhahn: I didn't know that. That's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, you know, one of the most effective styles of counseling is called the Rogerian, the active listening. And that's really -- people just need to know they're heard and there's a safe place for them to lay their burdens.

And so that brings me to this because we're talking about helping the hurting. But I have a feeling there's somebody listening right now and this person is really hurting. She or he is like, I can't help anybody right now because I am a train wreck myself. My heart is broken. So what do you want to say to their heart?

Shaunti Feldhahn: So the key for everybody to know, no matter where you are, is that there is hope and there is help for you. For example, if you're in crisis -- I love the fact that our nation has a crisis hotline. You can literally call 988 on any phone and get to a crisis hotline. There's all sorts of these opportunities depending on what your issue is.

Actually, we have those resources on thechurchcares.com, which is the site that we're using to try to help equip the body of Christ in all these different ways with this basic training and these resources for people.

But if you are in that spot, just be aware that there is that hope and help for you. And our hope is that your local church, if you approach them and if you say, "I need somebody to walk alongside me," that they will catch that vision as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I will have a link, by the way, to the website. Mention it one more time, even though we will have a link to it on the Show Notes. What is your website again?

Shaunti Feldhahn: The website for this initiative is thechurchcares.com.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good. And we will have a link to it. But it is important what Shaunti is saying, is you just don't stay in your isolation. Jesus cares and he's going to provide someone who cares also, whether it's on the crisis hotline, through the website, in your local church. But you just be brave and you reach out. Good stuff, Shaunti.

Okay. Y'all see why I love her so much? But we have to get to the last question, so here we go, Shaunti.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. What's the last question?

Jennifer Rothschild: How can the average person who is sitting in the pew every Sunday -- you know, they're not a pastor, they're not a staff member, and they're very inspired by what they've heard here. How can they start caring for others without burning out or getting totally overwhelmed?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, of course, because that's something we all have to care about. So here's what I would suggest. If this is resonating with you, what we most need is for people to come alongside the pastor, come alongside the church, and say, I think it's important for us to get a few people trained in, like, just basic listening.

"Hey, Pastor, I'm not suggesting you do this," because every pastor is overwhelmed and they can't do one more thing. But if you feel like maybe the Holy Spirit is kind of knocking on you to say maybe I should explore this, to ask the pastor, "Would you be willing for me to explore this and to see what it might take for our church to step in just to do a basic layer of lay care and lay listening in these cases?"

And that's what the book is for, that's what the churchcares.com is for, is to equip you. And that's the hope, is that people will go, oh, my word, I feel like this is what I'm built for, because it probably is.

KC Wright: I'm just saying, as a pastor I really resonated with what she just said. What we most need is people to come alongside the pastor and say, Hey, I'll help. It's not just your job.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: I got two hands and two feet.

She talked about the care strategy and the Church Cares Initiative. We will have links to these at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/376. And we really want you to check this out. Let's help, as the family of God, learn to listen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right?

Okay, so explore this. You got a lot of information today and so we want you to pray about this. Step in. And Shaunti's book is going to help you understand the crisis, but more importantly, the doable solution. So go to the Show Notes, as KC said, at 413podcast.com/376 and share this with your pastor, or maybe someone on your church staff, and tell them, I'm here. I'm willing to help with this.

KC Wright: And maybe you can win the book we're giving away so you can re-gift it to your pastor.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go.

KC Wright: You can enter to win at J.R.'s Insta @jennrothschild, or you can buy a book, or several, and make this thing happen. All you need, you can find at the Show Notes now at 413podcast.com/376.

All right, enough for today. You can do this, our people, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: I'm excited about this Joy tour you're about to embark on talking about heaven, because the kingdom of God is made up of righteousness, peace, and joy --

Jennifer Rothschild: It is joy.

KC Wright: -- in the Holy Spirit. You can't talk about heaven without talking about joy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. We want to live heaven now. I think C.S. Lewis said, "Joy is the serious business of heaven."

KC Wright: Love it.