4:13 Podcast: Can I Encounter God Through Scripture? With Bill Mowry [Episode 363]

Bill Mowry: The idea of holding the Word. And that "holding" is a relational term. It's just not a physical term, it's a relational term, because we hold on to the things that we love. And I thought, yeah, I want to hold on to the Scriptures because -- not that it's going to make me a better person, not because it's inspired, not because it's authoritative -- those are parts of it -- but because I want to love God and to hold on to the things that I love. And so I want to hold on to the Scriptures because I want to hold on to and love the author.

Jennifer Rothschild: Lots of us want a deeper and more meaningful relationship with the Bible, but figuring it out on our own can feel so intimidating. But the Bible is a living, breathing, life-changing book, and God wants you to have a first-hand encounter with him through the pages of the Bible.

So on today's episode, author Bill Mowry is going to show you how he's going to unpack five spiritual practices that are going to help you encounter God every time you open your Bible. Oh, my sisters and brothers, you are going to love this framework, so let's listen and learn. Here we come, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends, we're glad you're back with us. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And I'm Jennifer. We have one goal, and it's to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life with us, with these two friends here in the podcast closet, and one topic and zero stress.

And I'm going to tell you, if you were tuning in last week -- and if you weren't, you need to go back and listen because it was such a good episode. But we talked last week about our differences and what kind of animals we were. I said I was a Pitbull. KC was, like, a Labrador Retriever. Well, listen --

KC Wright: Bird. Squirrel.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- this little Labrador Retriever sitting next to me has been panting and wagging his tail. He is so excited. Because he told me something -- okay, KC.

KC Wright: Yeah. Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, KC's also a pastor at a church. And I'm just playing with him right now. He is a very serious, godly, deep man. He is not just a goofball.

But, KC, you are chomping at the bit to tell them what you told me. I can't wait for them to hear it about Philippians 4:13 from your sermon. You've got to tell our people that. They're going to love this.

KC Wright: Okay. So Philippians 4:13, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me," right? I can't tell you how many times this Scripture alone has got me through my CrossFit class. Because you're doing those box step-ups, you're like, "You can do it." It's all in the mind, right?

Well, in the ancient Greek, the word "Christ" from Philippians 4:13 is not in this verse. In the ancient Greek, it's the word O, and O means "the one that I know so well." So it could be read this way: "I can do all things through the One I know so well who strengthens me." The One I know so well. This means you can't have a distant fellowship with God and build in you who you are in Christ, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: This building who you are in Christ is from a place of deep fellowship with the One you know so well. And it reminds me of Paul who wrote in the New Testament -- you know, he wrote more than half of the New Testament. We need to thank God for Paul.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: God, thank you for Paul.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

KC Wright: But Paul said, "For my determined purpose is this: that I may know him, that I may become more deeply and intimately acquainted with him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of his person, and in that same way, come to know the power outflowing from his resurrection."

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Okay. Thank you for listening.

Jennifer Rothschild: Somebody get the offering plate. Seriously, KC, that's so good. And, you know, it resonates in my spirit. It's so true.

I was thinking when you said that, you know, in other languages -- English has one word for "know," k-n-o-w. But in other languages, there's nuance. Like in Spanish, it's "saber" versus "conocer." And one means to know intimately by experience, and the other means just to know, you know, information.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so there's no way we have the strengthening experience of Christ if we just have information about him. It has to -- like what you were saying, it has to be this intimate knowing, this -- you know, someone you don't know well, you're not going to fall into their arms and let them hold you up.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's only when you know them well.

KC Wright: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Who was the -- I think you mentioned to me there was a commentator or an author from --

KC Wright: I love --

Jennifer Rothschild: Who is that?

KC Wright: -- the Bible teacher Rick Renner.

Jennifer Rothschild: Renner.

KC Wright: Rick Renner.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: He has these books called "Sparkling Gems," and he just blows up every Scripture in the Greek. You know, he's always just -- anyway, I love all of his stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay.

KC Wright: I can't get enough of Rick Renner.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. Rick Renner. Okay, we're going to have a link to him on the Show Notes also.

And you know what? I'm so glad you -- this was so pulsing out of you today, KC, because this is kind of what we're talking about with Bill Mowry. We're talking about how Scripture can come to life for you. But not just for information's sake, but so that it can draw you to an intimate understanding and relationship with the God who wrote this Bible for you. So I just think we are primed and ready to meet Bill and to have this convo.

KC Wright: Bill Mowry is a veteran staff member with The Navigators. He has a master's degree in adult education from Ohio State University, is a published author in the areas of education, learning, discipleship, and leadership. Bill and his wife, Peggy, live in Columbus, Ohio, and they serve with the Navigator's Encore Ministry. His passion is to create ministry cultures where people are relationally participating in the Great Commission one relationship and one conversation at a time. Each one we reach one, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: He's our kind of guy. He's the real deal. So let's listen in on Jennifer and Bill Mowry. This is going to be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, so good.

Bill, I want you to know whenever we talk about two things here on The 4:13, our listenership just goes up, when we talk about prayer or when we talk about studying the Bible or understanding the Bible. So I know there are a lot of us tuning in right now because we love the Word and we want to know how to love the Word even more and use the Word, and that's why I'm super thrilled that you're on with us, because that's what we're going to talk about.

And in your book "Holding the Word," you use the word "hand." Okay? I love this, it's super practical. Use the word "hand" to show us five methods of learning from the Bible. So let's just dive into the deep end and you tell us those five ways.

Bill Mowry: All right. Well, thanks, Jennifer. It's a privilege to be here and to be able to interact with you and your listeners.

But, you know, the idea -- I'm on staff with The Navigators. And some of your listeners may be familiar with our ministry. But we were founded by a man named Dawson Trotman. And Dawson was a very practical individual, and that he felt discipleship and spiritual growth should be kind of practical, doable things. And so he was a very innovative guy and so he created this way of communicating the different ways we take in the Scriptures, and he compared it to a hand.

And so as you look at your hand, you get the little finger. That's hearing the Scriptures. Kind of the next finger is reading the Bible. You know, the third finger is studying it. The fourth finger is memorizing it. And, of course, the thumb is meditation. And what's kind of fun is that, you know, the thumb can touch all the other four fingers -- right? -- as you kind of move them around. So meditation should be able to touch all of those other fingers, whether we're hearing, reading, studying, or memorizing it.

And also the idea of the hand is that as they progress, you remember more of -- you know, that particular finger remembers more than a previous one. So in other words, when you memorize something, I'm remembering 100% of it. But if I'm just hearing it, you know, it's a much, much smaller percentage. And so you can picture, then, that hand kind of getting ahold of the Bible, and I need all five fingers to kind of grasp the Scriptures.

And so as believers, as we kind of participate in these five little disciplines, it helps us to kind of hold the Word. And, of course, then that the Word holds us -- right? -- it begins to change our lives.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay.

Bill Mowry: It's kind of a little story, yeah, the hand illustration.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. And I bet you some of our listeners even now, just like I am, we're moving from finger to finger, just like you were. And I know because some people are driving and they're looking at their hands right now on their steering wheel, let's review them one more time. What is the smallest finger?

Bill Mowry: Yeah, the smallest finger is we start out hearing. The next one is reading, you know, we're reading the Scriptures. And then studying. And we can have a discussion kind of between the two of studying and reading. The fourth one is memorizing. That's 100% And then the thumb is meditation. And the meditation, that thumb touches all the other four fingers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, So the way that you just repeated those, they seem to come in a very logical order. Is that true, or is that just my perception?

Bill Mowry: No, that would be true. You know, when Trotman kind of created this -- and we've used it over the years -- there is kind of a logical progression, isn't there? And particularly, it's a progression in terms of remembrance of things. And so that, again, what I memorize, I'm remembering 100% of something, as opposed to when I just hear it, it's really kind of diminishing returns over time, as you know as a public speaker.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, so we hear the Word, and then we go a little deeper and we study it. Or, no. You said we read it?

Bill Mowry: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And then we study it. And you know what I love about this, Bill, is sometimes people will just go straight for study or straight for memorize or straight for meditate. And I think this hand illustration is super helpful because it protects us in the process of really handling the Word well, so that we're really understanding what we're memorizing, understanding. I just love how the thumb touches every finger.

Bill Mowry: Yes, yes. And again, as you know, Jennifer, we all go through seasons of life, and in those seasons of life sometimes one of those fingers may be more dominant than others, just because of scheduling and so on. That's why I like the beauty of this too, is that the goal is not necessarily to be operating on all five fingers, but there are seasons where some may be more focused on than others. But I think for a healthy intake of the Scriptures, we should in some way, you know, be participating minimally in these five things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah. Because when you think about it, to hold anything well, you do need all five --

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- fingers to grasp it.

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So one of the other things you do in the book, Bill, that I think is super helpful and practical is that you suggest that as we prepare to encounter God in the Bible, like, before we're hearing and reading and studying, we ask four questions. So I would love it if you would kind of talk us through those four questions.

Bill Mowry: Sure. Yeah. I think that -- again, these questions kind of help us renew -- kind of prepare us for kind of meeting God in the Scriptures, don't they? And, you know, the four questions are -- I'm actually looking them up here quick, so I get them all right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I understand that.

Bill Mowry: Yeah. And so as we think about preparing to meet God in the Bible, I think the first question to ask ourselves -- let me just pull it up here quick --

Jennifer Rothschild: And you take your time.

Bill Mowry: -- is that am I ready -- yeah. The first one is am I ready to change? Again, you know, Jesus says it's the Spirit that gives life. The flesh is no avail. The words that I've spoken to you are spirit and life. And so that these words kind of give life to us -- don't they? -- because they're Jesus' words. And so as I come into the Scriptures, I'm thinking, well, hey, am I going to be open for God to touch on some things in my life? Am I willing to change if he does that?

The second question is the idea that -- am I willing for -- to help? You know, am I ready to get some help? And again, that's the role of the Holy Spirit, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Bill Mowry: And that the Holy Spirit is the one that gives us understanding of the Scriptures and I need his help. It's just not simply a rational approach to the Scriptures. I need his help.

Then the third question -- and this one could be a little bit unusual -- but it's the idea that am I ready for a routine? And by routine, being that, hey, I'm willing to practice these disciplines on a regular or routine basis.

And like any relationship, you know, like, being married to my wife, and that we have little routines that we've worked into our life and into our relationship that kind of keeps our love going, you know, keeps our relationship going. And that those little routines, you know, kind of build that love relationship. And so as I approach the Scriptures, it's a willingness to practice some of these routines.

And then the final one is that am I ready to obey? You know, Jesus gives a challenge, you know, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" And, you know, the great deception in the Bible is in James 1 where we can hear, but if we don't do, then we're kind of tricking ourselves into thinking that I've actually responded to the Scriptures. And so bottom line is that the last question is that am I willing to go into the Scriptures with an attitude of obeying what the Lord shows me from it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Those are good hard questions. And I can see how even asking them -- even if your answer is no to some of them, I can see how asking them softens your heart and awakens your spirit to, okay, if I'm not willing to change, or if I don't think I need help, or if I'm not really wanting a routine or to obey, then that's a heart exam right there that we need to do.

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But Lord willing, the answer is going to be yes to all those --

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- through God's grace. Bill, that's so practical, right? We've talked about a couple of things that are very practical and super helpful. But I got to hit a speed bump here. Okay?

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because some people see the Bible as a book of rules or if I want to feel guilty, I'm going to read the Bible. Or maybe they just look at it as a textbook, like, oh, wow, I love learning, I'm going to study. But you say in your book that the Bible is beautiful to you. So I would love for you to unpack why is the Bible beautiful to you?

Bill Mowry: Good question. Let me give a little analogy to play off what you said here, is that -- yeah, you're exactly right, sometimes kind of the -- there's this great quote from the author Warren Wiersbe where he says that Christians seldom rise any higher than the quality of the pictures that hang in the galleries of their minds.

And so that -- like you pointed out, there's some pictures that people -- and I've held them in my mind -- about what the Bible is. And a common one that I've heard expressed is that the Bible is God's kind of manual for life, you know.

And I think of -- boy, of a manual, you know, it's like my car manual. I don't wake up in the morning thinking, wow, I can't wait to read my car manual today, you know? But I only pull it out when that little light goes off on my dashboard and I have to consult the manual. And so if I think of that as just a manual, then I'm probably not going to be attracted to it if that's the picture that's hanging in my mind.

But now if I think of the Bible as like a seven-course -- it's an invitation to a seven-course meal. And so when I get invited to a seven-course meal, one is I start salivating over all the different courses I'm going to eat, you know, all the food. But in a seven-course meal, then in between each course is this time to talk with the people who are at the meal with you.

And so not only is it a time to kind of get the nourishment from the food, but I get the interaction with others. And so that's what I like to think about the Scriptures. The Scriptures is kind of God's invitation to the seven-course meal. Not only is he going to feed me spiritually, but I'm going to be in relationship with him and with others who are involved in the Scriptures with me.

So when I think of the Bible being beautiful, I think of it as, man, there's a beauty involved in, like, the chef cooking the seven-course meal, there's a beauty involved in what the food looks like. You know, there's a beauty that happens as we talk with other people and, boy, we find things in common, we discover things with one another. There's something about kind of that moment that's beautiful.

And so when I think of the Bible being beautiful, I think of it as being -- capturing the character of God, that things that are beautiful we come back to, don't we? You know, if I have a beautiful sunset or I have a beautiful piece of music that I listen to, you know, that I keep coming back to, beauty kind of draws us back again and again. So when I think of the Bible as being beautiful, I think of it as, boy, it's something that draws me back again and again because of the author, not only the words on the page, but it's the author who's a beautiful one, and then he draws me back again and again.

And beauty, like anything else, always needs to be cultivated, doesn't it? I can't presume upon it. And so to me, one of the ways to cultivate the beauty of the Bible is what I call -- and others have called it the same way -- is that joy of discovery.

That, again, when I have something beautiful, like I'm listening to a piece of music and I really enjoy it, and what I find myself doing is that I listen to it in different ways or I listen to it to spot maybe different instruments, different tonations, you know, different speed, all those kinds of things. So every time I come back to something beautiful, like listening to something, I'll listen to it in a new way so I'll try to spot something new.

And so it is with the Scriptures. But there's a lot of things we've gone over and over, we read over and over or heard over and over again, but when it becomes something beautiful, I come back to discover something new about it. And so that's kind of a way.

And so as I think about beauty, I think that, again, it's -- what's that picture that's hanging in the gallery of our minds? Is it an attractive one? And then beauty pulls us back again and again to look and to see and to discover something new. So I would say, at least for me, those are some of the things that describe beauty, what makes the Bible beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that's well said. And so picturesque. And you know, Bill, beauty just gets more beautiful.

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It doesn't get weary. It doesn't. It gets more beautiful.

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And when you compare the Bible to a seven-course meal, I mean, that is absolutely delight. Every course is slightly different. You're right, there's relationship within it. It's nourishing. I mean, who doesn't want that? What a beautiful, beautiful picture that is. I'm so grateful you shared that.

And one of the things that you talk about in your book that caught my ear was the difference between beginning hearers and seasoned hearers.

Bill Mowry: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, there's people listening who have been in the church, been in Bible studies their whole lives. Does that mean they're seasoned hearers? Talk to me about the difference between a beginning and a seasoned hearer and how we know the difference and what's what.

Bill Mowry: Yeah. Good point. Yeah, it's like in each of these hands, there are things that, you know, maybe some of us are just getting started on, or some of us, we realize that, well, I haven't been hearing as well as I should.

And so I think of a beginning hearer -- part of it starts with paying attention. And then throughout the book, I come back again and again to this idea of attention. Because, again, we pay attention to the things that we love. And so if I love the Scriptures, I love the voice of God, I want to pay attention to it. And attention is kind of this conscious effort to kind of focus on what's being said.

So even in our conversation here today, I'm trying to really listen to you, Jennifer, because I want to really understand your questions. So I'm really paying attention to her -- to you. And so part of it is as I'm hearing the Word taught, I need to discipline myself to pay attention and to maybe put aside all these other things running around in my head and to focus on the speaker. I think too in paying attention, I want to listen to just what are the big ideas?

You know, any speaker that -- well, on a Sunday morning message, what are the big ideas that he or she is trying to communicate? And then, of course, hearing is something that in a typical worship setting, in a preaching setting, it's done with friends, and so it becomes a shared experience.

Now, seasoned hearers, I'd like to suggest they're taking it a step further. Like, for example, you know, that our minds have the capacity to hear both words and to actively think about the words. So in other words, my mind is thinking faster than what I hear. And so my mind can -- actually, it's not wandering, but my mind can -- a speaker makes a statement, my mind can actually begin to brainstorm and ask questions about that statement. And it doesn't mean that I'm not paying attention to them because my mind has the speed to process things.

And so that for a seasoned hearer -- you know, it's like that passage in Acts where it talks about the Bereans, that these Thessolonicans were noble -- more noble because they examine the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. So they were kind of critiquing the Apostle Paul.

And so I think -- a lot of times I'll sit there and I'll debate with the speaker. You know, why did they come to that conclusion? How did they reach that conclusion? Do I agree with that? Not in a critical way, but in a way of kind of -- it takes me deeper into it.

And I think the other big thing on helping me as a seasoned listener is to -- I call it checking our bias at the door. You know, we all have certain biases, and these are these little yellow flags that go up and we wonder, do I want to listen to this guy or not? And sometimes we just need to admit to these biases.

Like, for example, I have a biases against anyone teaching about raising kids who haven't got kids out of high school yet. And I think, hey, you know, it's just all theory for you until your kids actually probably get married and have kids of their own. And so I have a biases. It's kind of an age biases. And others might have the opposite age biases that, hey, I don't want to listen to anybody that's got gray hair, you know. But we can have racial biases, appearance biases. They can be gender biases that we have.

And so I think for kind of the advanced hearers, it's sometimes taking a little check. Okay, and maybe I've got a little bias against the speaker, and maybe I just need to check it at the door.

So those are a couple things that maybe could help distinguish between the beginning hearer and the more seasoned hearer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, that's good stuff right there. And then how do we, Bill, move from being a beginning hearer to a seasoned hearer? What are those processes? Is it just paying attention?

Bill Mowry: I think paying attention is a big part of it. I think this idea of asking questions to myself about the speaker. So now I'm -- oh, by the way, the other side of this in paying attention -- you know, I played basketball in high school, and I'll never forget one time we were in the huddle, I'm going in to play, and the coach is talking to all of us. And he looks at me and he says, "Hey, Mowry, pay attention to me. All you're doing is sitting there with the arms folded." And I still remember that. It was kind of an embarrassing moment.

But, you know, our physical posture engages us in attention so that -- you know, again, as speakers -- you know, if I'm a listener, I can be leaning back in my chair with my arms crossed, it's kind of like, I dare you to tell me something new, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Bill Mowry: But if I'm leaning forward, just that simple act -- I'm focusing my eyes, my attention, my hearing on the speaker, just that simple physical act helps give me attention. And then in that act of attention, I begin to ask some questions about what the speaker is saying. And again, not so much to critique him. I'm not asking, boy, he should have used a hand gesture there and he didn't. I'm thinking, yeah, well, what's he really mean? How did he come to that conclusion, or she come to that conclusion? And, boy, if they're saying this, what impact could this have on my life? How can I -- and that's just part of application. How could I picture myself living out this one thought that I heard from the speaker.

Another thing I think that from -- and I'll be honest, you know, I calculated one time -- and you've probably done the same thing, Jennifer. You look over your lifetime and you think, man, how many messages have you heard in a lifetime?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yeah.

Bill Mowry: You know, it's thousands, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Bill Mowry: I don't even remember all these.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Bill Mowry: And so what I found as kind of a seasoned listener, I'm just trying to listen to one -- I'm trying to come away with just one thing from the speaker. He could have or she could have three or four points, but, hey, I'm going to forget those points by tomorrow. But what's one thought that I want to come away with?

And that's that thought -- remember the thumb? That's a thought I want to meditate on, you know. And so that -- again, I think that's a difference between a beginning and advanced hearer, is that -- beginners, we want to write everything down. And writing does help us focus, pay attention. But the reality is, I'm going to forget 90% of it tomorrow morning.

So I try to focus on what's one thing that I want to take away from this teaching time or this sermon. And that, to me, can be evidence of a little bit more of an advanced learner. And I think sometimes we assume that the advanced learner is a person that remembers all this stuff. Well, you know, it just doesn't work that way.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it doesn't. It's the person who's learning to assimilate that one thought.

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, you said that about the one thing. My pastor, former pastor, used to say -- and I loved this -- sermons don't change lives; sentences do.

Bill Mowry: Oh, that's a great statement. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't it great? And so I have thought of that when I'm sharing the Word. I will encourage my audience, yes, you do you. Listen to how you like to -- take notes, whatever. But just ask God for the one sentence, just the one sentence.

Bill Mowry: Yes. Yeah. Or the one word. Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or the one word, right.

Bill Mowry: Yes. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then, of course, what you're describing too, which I think prepares all of us to be good hearers, is humility, having the willingness to just humbly listen and receive no matter what the vessel, no matter what the message. And I still -- as much as I love the Word and I love to hear it taught, I will catch myself. And I need to check my biases too. One of mine will be, "I know that passage."

Bill Mowry: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, we all need to treat the Word with humility. Wow, Bill, this is so good.

Okay, 4:13ers, I'm going to give you a call to action at the end where you'll know how to get Bill's book.

But, Bill, I want to hold the Word with you, my brother. This is good stuff. So we're going to get to our last question. Because you mention the word "meditation," the thumb.

Bill Mowry: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think we need to end with that, because in your book you call it Biblical meditation. And I want you to explain that because that is different from perhaps other types of meditation. And so talk to us about how to Biblically meditate, and then give us an example of how we can begin to do that even now and why it will make a difference.

Bill Mowry: Sure. Yeah, you know, it's fascinating, when you look at the Scriptures, that, you know, we're often called to meditate on or think about -- and let's use that word "meditate." It means kind of prolonged thinking, I'm turning something over in my mind, you know, I'm looking at it from different angles, and my mind is -- it's kind of like -- one comparison, it's like a root stimulator. You know, I'm just going over it again and again and again.

And so that there seems to be three things that the Scriptures calls us to think about, to meditate on. One is, you know, obviously God's Word. Then he calls us to meditate on his works. And he calls us to meditate on his wonder, kind of the character of God himself.

And so when you look at what the Biblical commands are, that -- you know, I'm not meditating on my -- necessarily my experience, I'm not -- here's the big difference. In meditation, how it's typically taught in other settings is that I am emptying my mind of something And so this idea of being single-minded, of being in the moment. And those are important qualities. But what the Bible calls us to is we're to fill our minds with things. And then it's to fill our minds so we can focus on just one thing to kind of extract all the truth from it that I can.

And so the Bible then speaks to -- not of emptying our minds, but really focusing our minds. And we use the word "mindfulness," that my mind is full of the Word of God, or maybe the works of God, or the wonder of God, of who he is. And so in a practical way of doing that -- you know, again, I found this is how Scripture memory can tie into this. That if I'm memorizing a passage, that gives me something to think about during the day. I'm trying to extract -- I'm looking at keywords. I'm just mulling it over again and again.

I think another key aspect in this, Jennifer, is the role of our imagination, and that when I'm thinking about the Scriptures, I'm imagining myself living it out in the next, say, 24 hours. And so that if I've got a key thought, maybe I heard it in the message on Sunday -- that's that one thing, you know, from hearing -- my thumb's going to touch that and I'm going to meditate on that one sentence that you described.

And then I begin thinking about, boy, if I were to believe and act this one sentence, how would I picture my life being different in the next 24 hours? So I began imagining what life would look like. And out of that kind of imagining, I begin thinking, well, here's one thing maybe the Lord would want me to do.

And so to me, meditation -- and by the way, that's the thrust of Joshua 1:8, you know, "This Book of the Law shall not depart out of your mouth, but you're to meditate on it day and night, that you might be careful to do." And so that I'm thinking about meditation as what is a little application that I could take? And I think of applications not as this lifetime commitment, I'm going to do something forever, but I think, hey, is this a way I could respond to the Holy Spirit in practical ways in the next ten minutes, maybe the next ten hours, or the next ten days?

And so meditation is that taking the Word of God, the wonder of God, or the work of God into our lives, not to empty our life, but to think upon it, reflect upon it, mull it over, and maybe the Lord has something that he wants me to do as a result of thinking on it.

And so those are perhaps some of the differences between -- I think Biblical meditation as we see it, practicing the Scriptures and exhorted to practicing the Scriptures, and some of what I think and what our culture is saying about meditation.

KC Wright: I am very good at meditating because I am a professional worrier. Okay?

Bill said that meditation is prolonged thinking. It's examining something from all the different angles. See?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: This is how I worry. But if you are a worrier too, then you can be --

Jennifer Rothschild: Then you can be a good meditator.

KC Wright: Yes, you can be a good one. We just need to channel that focus. And we have three things to think on: his Word, his works, and his wonder.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Yeah, that was so succinct and so good. And I also love just how clear and practical this whole conversation was. And the part about meditation, I did think also, KC, was super practical. And he did mention that a very practical way to do this is to think on what you memorize.

So I did a whole teaching on how to do this. I think it was Episode 64. We will have a link on the Show Notes to that so that you can review that. Plus -- you may not know this -- but one of our most popular podcasts was on how to memorize Scripture. That was with Josh Summers, and it was so good. So we'll have a link to that also.

KC Wright: So, so good. And we have had so many podcasts about memorizing and meditating. And like Jennifer just said, we'll have all those links on the Show Notes just for you so you can dive deep into all that goodness. Okay? It's at 413podcast.com/363, so you and I can go deeper. And, of course, you can also enter to win one of Bill's books right there. So go straight to Jennifer's Instagram @jennrothschild.

All right, our people, you can do this, because you can absolutely encounter God in Scripture because you can do all -- I love the word "all." It always means all. Even in the Greek it means all -- all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And --

Jennifer Rothschild: You can.

KC Wright: -- you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: We can do it all through the One we know, oh, so well.

KC Wright: Hey, isn't that the win of the 4:13 Podcast? If someone walks up to us at a Fresh Grounded Faith and says, "Listening to this podcast made me fall more in love with Jesus" --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's the win-win.

KC Wright: -- can you shoot the confetti cannon?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: Where's Bob Goff?