4:13 Podcast: Can I Get Free and Stay Free? With Ian Morgan Cron [Episode 362]

Ian Cron: You know, all of us have fixes that we come up with to deal with internal pain. Some of them are mild, granted, and some of them are severe, but we all have them. And that is just classic Christian teaching going back 1,600 or 1,700 years. Now, obviously some of those have more severe consequences on relationships, jobs, you know, health, et cetera; but the fact of the matter is no matter how mild or severe, all addictions, or what the early fathers of the church would have called attachments, diminish our relationship with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: We all suffer from a sense of spiritual homelessness, this feeling that we're not fully at home in this world. So to cope with this feeling, we search for quick fixes that can eventually become self-destructive choices that ultimately create more problems than they actually solve. Listen, everybody is addicted to something just to get through life in this messed-up world. But today you are about to get the fix.

Bestselling author Ian Cron is going to unpack his latest book, and it's called "The Fix." And you are about to learn how working the Twelve Steps -- yes, those Twelve Steps -- can result in a vital spiritual awakening that is going to give you an entirely new and liberating way of living. So if you want to get free and stay free, today's episode is for you. Here we come, KC Wright.

KC Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our dear ones. We're so glad you're here. And you -- because of you, we have 4 million downloads.

Group of Women: Four million downloads! (cheering)

Jennifer Rothschild: We're a little bit thankful and a whole lot grateful. So I'm Jennifer, and my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life along with me and my buddy, my Seeing Eye Guy, KC Wright. You know the drill. It's two friends and one topic and zero stress.

And seriously, we are super thankful celebrating 4 million downloads, because that -- doesn't it, KC? -- represents 4 million hearts that have been touched, 4 million people who have potentially been set free.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, this is good stuff, people. It's not numbers, it's souls. And we are thankful --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for everything that God does --

KC Wright: Thank you, God.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- in the soul of a human.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And guess what, KC? I didn't even tell you this. Today is also a big day for Jennifer.

KC Wright: Yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: It is my anniversary.

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Me and Dr. Phil, we've been married -- he always remembers more than me. Thirty-nine years, I think.

KC Wright: Happy anniversary.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. And I'm not that old, so it's really striking. But I am feeling that old.

Okay. But I have to tell you something else, KC, speaking of feeling. Okay?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it's true that the older we get, the more we're seeking for trying to figure out our health, the way our body changes, all those things, right?

KC Wright: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I have this young friend, Kenzie -- our 4:13er have heard me talk about her. She had an Oura ring. Have you heard of those?

KC Wright: I've heard about them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, I got one because -- Kenzie's conservative, Kenzie's smart. And I'm like, well, if she likes it and it's worth the money, then I'm going to try. Oh, my gosh. I love it. It tells me how long I sleep, like, what the quality of sleep was. It counts my steps for me. Look, I'm wearing it right here. See it?

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's pretty, right?

KC Wright: It's -- yeah, it's really pretty.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, KC, I'm going to turn off the light here in the studio. Hold on one second. Where's the light? Okay. Can you see it glowing slightly?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I had had this ring, I don't know, KC, maybe a week --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and it was still learning me and, you know, my stress. Oh, it'll tell you when you're under stress, it'll tell you your heart rate. It's cool.

KC Wright: So cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: Actually, I just thought about this in real time. I will have a link on the Show Notes. Okay? Because I got mine on Amazon, so you can get it there. So I will have an Amazon link for you people who want to try it. Mine happens to be gold, and it's the Heritage. I didn't get the brand-new version because it was $150 more. I'm like, well, I'll just get the old version since I'm old.

Okay. Anyway, all that setup is to say this. Okay. So I had this conversation with Ian Cron that you're about to hear. And I get this notification on my phone that Oura is telling me, "Jennifer, you are in a restorative state." And I'm like, "What?"

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what I said. I'm like, "Restorative state? What does this mean?" Okay. And so it describes it to me, right? And it says, "This is a beautiful place to be." And I was like, Yep. This was one of the most life-giving, restorative conversations that I've had, and even my Oura ring noticed.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think you guys are going to feel the same way. But yeah, it lets you know when you're engaged, when you're stressed, when you're restored. And it was the first time I had been in a restorative state, like, for the whole conversation.

KC Wright: This is like a 2025 mood ring.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're right. KC, you are so funny. It is. Except it'll tell you what your heart rate is. Anyway, I love it, and it's pretty.

KC Wright: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's pretty. I have it on --

KC Wright: And you're such a techie.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love tech.

KC Wright: Yes. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, I love tech.

Okay. But I also loved this conversation. But before we have it, I'm going to say one more thing. All right. So Ian Cron is known as the Enneagram guy. Okay? He wrote what I think is one of the very best books on the Enneagram called "The Road Back to You," which we'll also have a link to on the Show Notes.

Okay. So, KC, I know that you knew your Enneagram at one point, but I also know you, and you forgot what it was.

KC Wright: You really know me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Which means you're probably a 7. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: But here's the thing. Have you ever done those, like, where you compare yourself to an animal or --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Because when people ask me about you, I describe us as animals. Okay. So I want to know, if you've done one of those, what animal you were. Do you remember?

KC Wright: I don't think I've ever done one of those where I'm thinking of the animal. Now, people look like animals --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: -- and that's a whole 'nother podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, that is.

KC Wright: Every person resembles an animal to me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's funny. Do I want to know what mine is? I'm a little nervy. It better be a cute --

KC Wright: Elly asked me the other day what I thought of this little boy she's like, and I go, "He looks like a little baby calf."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Okay, you're funny.

All right. Well, I'm going to tell you how I describe us to people.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: I said, You put me and KC in the closet, and KC's like the Labrador Retriever -- Oh, can we play? Oh, look at the shiny object. Oh, let me run, catch the ball -- and Jennifer's like the Pitbull (barking), Get over here. Get us moving.

KC Wright: So true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Is that not true?

KC Wright: So true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. It is. All right. But anyway, that has nothing to do with anything.

But seriously, my people, you're about to become --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- entering into a restorative state. You're about to become restored. So breathe in, breathe out. KC's going to introduce this guy. I really -- I had read his book. I loved him in person. Like, I would stalk him. He doesn't even know this. Like, I would be one of his BFFs if he'd have me.

Okay. Anyway, his name is Ian Morgan Cron, so why don't you introduce him, KC.

KC Wright: I want to be in a restorative state.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: Let's intro Ian, yes, and get this going.

Ian Morgan Cron is a best-selling author, Enneagram teacher. He's a priest and the host of the popular podcast Typology. His books include "The Road Back to You," which has sold over -- get this -- 1 million copies --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's right.

KC Wright: -- and "The Story of You," among others. So again, you're going to love this conversation, and I am so excited for it. Because if Jennifer's given this guy all the green flags, I'm in, right? So here is Jennifer and Ian.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Ian. You and I, before we even got on mic, were talking about Enneagram. And we're going to hit that, because who can ever have a conversation with you without touching on that?

But we're going to start with your newest book, "The Fix," because there's so much about it that I'm very curious about. So I want us just to dive right into the deep end, because you say that you've been on a 30-year journey of recovery. And you write in your book "The Fix" that the Twelve Steps saved and restored your life. And so I want to start there. What was the situation that would cause you to say the Twelve Steps saved and restored your life?

Ian Cron: Well, first, Jennifer, thanks for having me on the podcast. It's a delight to spend time with you.

My first introduction to the Twelve Steps of recovery was many decades ago when I was a young man struggling with an alcohol problem. And I was in my late 20s and I had reached a point where I needed to find outside help to support me on a journey of living life without alcohol, and I was introduced to a Twelve Step community.

What I discovered there is that the Twelve Steps were actually derived from a Christian organization called The Oxford Group, and that they were not only a wonderful tool for people in recovery for substance use disorder or for what we call process addictions, that would be things like porn or sex or overeating or et cetera, et cetera. That they wouldn't just help those people, but they would be incredibly useful to people who don't identify as addicts or alcoholics, because they're just a wonderful Gospel-centered design for living that did, in fact, revolutionize my life and made me a better follower of Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's fascinating. Now, some of us are listening right now, I can imagine, and they're thinking, okay, that's cool. Yeah, I've heard of the Twelve Steps, but that's not me. I have no addictions in my life.

But you say that everyone is an addict. So I want you to explain what addiction is and why you claim that all of us may be an addict.

Ian Cron: I love what the Christian psychiatrist Gerald May once wrote. He said, "To be alive is to be addicted, and to be alive and addicted is to stand in need of grace." You know, all of us have fixes that we come up with to deal with internal pain. Some of them are mild, granted, and some of them are severe, but we all have them. And that is just classic Christian teaching going back 16 or 17 hundred years.

Now, obviously some of those have more severe consequences on relationships, jobs, you know, health, et cetera, but the fact of the matter is no matter how mild or severe, all addictions, or what the early fathers of the church would have called attachments, diminish our relationship with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So if someone were to throw a Christian biblical template over this, would they call it idolatry?

Ian Cron: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Okay. All right.

Ian Cron: Yes. If you want to get down into the theological weeds, absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Okay.

Ian Cron: It is -- you know, just quoting from the Old Testament, it's called drinking from the wrong well. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Yeah.

Ian Cron: A well that leaks, a cistern that leaks. Right? So in other words, no matter how much you drink from that well, it always runs out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay. That makes sense to me, because all of us -- so, yeah, sometimes it's a matter of semantics, but all of us find other lovers, quote/unquote, like in Hosea --

Ian Cron: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know, to satisfy us, when we have the ultimate lover of our soul. But we wander to other things for our -- well, as you put it, the fix.

Ian Cron: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's super interesting, Ian.

All right. So let's say someone has the humility to concede, Okay, yeah, mm-hmm, I see this in me. Then I want you to go here, because you mention also in your book that addiction is really just a symptom. Okay? So does that mean you're not saying it's a problem, or are you just saying you can see the problem as a symptom of a deeper problem? So explain that.

Ian Cron: Boy, Jennifer, this is an insightful question. So oftentimes people will come to me and they'll say, "Oh, I'm so glad that you've written this book because my cousin Bob has a drinking problem." Okay. And whenever they say that, I appreciate what they're trying to say, but I try to correct them. And I say, "Actually, your cousin Bob doesn't have a drinking problem. Your cousin Bob has a drinking solution."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. That's so powerful. I think we need to pause there. Everybody just needs to think about that. You need to repeat it, Ian, because that's super powerful, and it's a paradigm shift.

Okay. So your cousin Bob doesn't have a drinking problem --

Ian Cron: Bob has a drinking solution.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Now unpack it.

Ian Cron: All right. So -- and trust me, I understand why they're saying problem, but I'm trying to get them to actually have a paradigm shift, right? A paradigm shift that will arouse compassion and empathy and understanding in them for Bob. Okay? In Bob's mind, drinking is not the problem, it's the solution to another problem inside of him that he has no other way, for now, of addressing. You know what I'm saying?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: Like, he's just -- you know, in that kind of twisted logic that we all can fall into -- right? -- Bob is thinking, there is another place in my life, another part of who I am that is on fire, and this is the only kind of, you know -- this is like an internal firefighter that I've let loose on it, right? And so it's trying to solve an internal problem with an external solution.

Now, the key is we got to get Bob, obviously, to stop drinking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, sure. Sure, sure, sure.

Ian Cron: Not that -- Bob has to stop drinking. Whether or not we can get him there is a whole different issue.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Ian Cron: Now, what we want to do, then, is have Bob turn his gaze toward the actual problem. And this is what the Twelve Steps helps us to do, right? Like, it actually gives us a plan for looking at the real problem and then rendering the solution we've come up for it, whether it's porn or drinking or eating, or whatever the case may be, so that it renders that unnecessary because you've actually addressed the problem that was trying to solve.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love this. And it makes so much sense. You're saying that what we would call the drinking, quote/unquote, problem is really just the fruit of the root, which is a deeper problem. So --

Ian Cron: Yeah, it's a symptom of the problem, but not the problem itself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. Gotcha. But it creates all sorts of problems, that's for sure.

Ian Cron: Yeah. Well, that's the thing. So eventually -- when you use an external solution to solve an internal problem, eventually the external solution becomes bigger than the problem it was trying to solve.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Ian Cron: And now you got two problems.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. And then you've got -- well, no, you got a lot more than that, because then you have the guilt and the frustration --

Ian Cron: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and the shame and all the stuff.

And so let me just for our listeners -- because perhaps -- you know, we're using a great example here that all of us are aware of of alcoholism. But that may not be your thing as you're listening. But, you know, I'll just admit, mine is eating. Like, oh, my gosh, that's where I go. I'm happy, I'm sad, I'm stressed, let me just be comforted by food, and then a week later be frustrated because I gained two pounds. But it's really not the weight, it's the lack of self-control. You know what I'm saying?

So let's keep it general as we're listening, because otherwise -- we don't want to other. We don't want to make this about someone else. I want this to be about me, Lord. How do I get free?

So, Ian, you've talked about the Twelve Steps, but a lot of us may not know exactly what they are. I mean, I think the first one is something about a higher power. But can you go through the Twelve Steps with us so we know what they are?

Ian Cron: Sure. Let me do it super quick, because I know -- for the sake of time. But secondly, understand that when you hear them -- and this is kind of the genius. They're going to sound super simple. But I want you to know that when you start to do work with them, they're very deep.

Okay, here we go. Number one, we admitted we were powerless over blank, that our lives had become unmanageable. Jennifer, can I use you as an example?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Ian Cron: All right. So you could say, "I admit that I'm powerless over food." Now -- my relationship with food, right? Now, it may not be severe, but I'm kind of powerless over it. When I get anxious, when I get depressed, when I get angry, what do I do? I eat.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Ian Cron: Okay. And it does make my life unmanageable to a certain extent, right? You're not losing your home, your job, or your car, but you are experiencing what I call emotional unmanageability. Sadness about it, anger about it --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: -- you know, just, Gosh, what am I doing? You know, Why can't I rely on God to do for me what I'm looking for food to do? You know what I mean?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Ian Cron: Have you been there?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. I mean, I sacrifice my peace, my self-esteem. Yeah, I lose all of it. Yeah.

Ian Cron: Yeah. So step two, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Well, what does that mean? Well, I love how the Twelve Steps actually sets a low bar. Right? It's just like, okay, can we just start with this belief that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to wholeness. Right? Sanity, wholeness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Ian Cron: What this is trying to do is infuse us with hope. Oh, guess what? There's a solution.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Ian Cron: Right? Now, you may say, Oh, I'm a Christian, I've already done this. It's like, well -- it says "come to believe." And I don't know about you, but I'm coming to believe every single day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Me too. Me too. I have to rehearse it over and over. Yeah.

Ian Cron: Yes. And I have to expand my understanding of God beyond just a mental theological idea into an experience of God. Does that make sense?

Jennifer Rothschild: Totally.

Ian Cron: Then step three, made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him. Okay, this is a big move now. Think of the first three steps as this. Number one, I can't. Number two, he can. Number three, I think I'll let him.

Jennifer Rothschild: I will. Yeah.

Ian Cron: Okay. I think I'll let him.

So this is very big because these are steps I do every single day. Yes, I gave my life to Christ many years ago. But let me tell you, I'm making a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God every -- sometimes hourly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Ian Cron: So it's a very conscious way of life. It's not seeing, you know, everything as being, oh, on the day that I gave my life to Christ and then everything was settled and finished. Like, I got to revisit that all the time, you know. Then in steps four through seven, we're going to talk about turning our gaze inward at all the stuff that's going on inside that's kind of fueling our addictions.

So four is made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. So we're just going to go in and with kindness and compassion begin to unearth -- or as my friend says, to uncover, discover, and then eventually discard -- what we find inside that is standing as an obstacle between us and our relationship with God and that's fueling addictions.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Ian Cron: So then we make this searching and fearless moral inventory.

We then admit to God -- in step five, admit to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. That's a huge step.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's hard.

Ian Cron: And then six -- oh, yeah. But listen. You know, it's just the Gospel, Jennifer. I mean, James is pretty clear, even though it's not a Gospel, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: Like James says, "Confess your sins to one another that you might be healed."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Okay.

Ian Cron: I mean, how come people don't take advantage of that more?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because we're embarrassed.

Ian Cron: Well, yeah. And ashamed and all that stuff. But it is the path to healing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is, right. And it's incredible. It's not like confess and then do these 12 things and you'll be healed. I mean, there's a quick correlation. Confession and healing, it puts you on the path. Okay.

Ian Cron: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah, bad stuff thrives in secret.

Okay, so what's the next step?

Ian Cron: Oh, man. Well, you know, sunshine is the best antiseptic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Amen.

Ian Cron: So anyway, getting to six and seven, we're entirely ready to have God remove all of these defects of character. That's six.

And then seven is humbly ask him to remove our shortcomings. Now, this is big, Jennifer. Most -- I think people -- I think Christianity is so simple we try to make it hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: Okay? It's really, really simple. Most people are -- and they do it with good intentions, but they're involved in a reformation project. They're trying on their own unaided willpower to change themselves into the likeness of Christ thinking, I'm going to try really hard to be a good Christian. And I call that taping fruit to trees. Okay? That is, I'm going to fix myself.

And there is a kind of stiff-necked rebelliousness in that, even though it may be well intentioned. It's like, all right -- okay, I'm going to do all the heavy lifting here. And that's not what the Gospel says.

The Gospel is about transformation, not reformation. And transformation is what happens when we turn our shortcomings and all our defects of character over to God so that he can do for us what we cannot do for ourselves, which is change.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Ian Cron: And that can take a minute.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: But it's a matter of giving God consent to change us. That's the job, right? And then it's not to say that we don't, you know, apply effort, so long as we don't think of effort as a way of earning something, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's more like cooperation with what Christ --

Ian Cron: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: But not earning anything. You can't earn something you've already been given.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Good word.

Ian Cron: Namely forgiveness and grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: Right?

And then when you move into steps eight and nine, they're all about fixing relationships with other people. So we make a list of all persons we'd harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. That's eight. Nine, made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

So notice something right now, Jennifer. Steps one to three are about mending and deepening your relationship with God. Four through seven is mending and deepening your relationship with yourself. And then eight and nine is about mending and deepening your relationship with others.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Ian Cron: So here's where we go and say, you know, I have probably a fairly long list of people whom I have hurt or I have had a rupture in relationship with and I need to go back and clean up. So many people carry the weight of broken relationships that have never been addressed either because of pride or because of embarrassment or shame or fear. But this is -- again, this is just Bible 101, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Ian Cron: Like, if you're at the temple and someone comes to mind with whom you have an unresolved thing going on, leave immediately and go fix it and then come back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Wow.

Ian Cron: Right? And this is also just good mental health stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is.

Ian Cron: It's like you should not be -- I had a sponsor one time, he used to say to me all the time, "How long are you going to carry that corpse around?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Wow. Yeah.

Ian Cron: It was his way of saying, you know, if you've got unfinished business with people, you need to go back and seek peace and healing and restoration, or at the very least reconciliation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And even if -- Ian, here's the question. Because I can imagine someone listening going, Yeah, but you don't know my so and so, and they're not going to concede, they're not going to forgive, they're not going to restore. How does that person deal with that?

Ian Cron: Yeah. Can I be blunt?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: You got to clean own -- you got to clean your side of the street. That's all you got to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Ian Cron: Sweep your side of the street. You can't say to yourself, for example, well, you know, they hurt me more than I hurt them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: Okay. Well, first of all, you're probably a fairly poor judge of that.

And secondly, that's not the point. With humility we go back, and we only claim -- we only go back and talk to them about what we did. If they choose to own up to something they did and that leads to a deeper conversation, great. But that's actually not the point, right? The point is you take responsibility for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word. Okay.

Ian Cron: And if you -- you know, and then if they receive it poorly, just walk away knowing did my part, move on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And you've already gone through some of those earlier steps, so hopefully you've got a more clear relationship with your own soul that you can --

Ian Cron: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- with your soul and with the Lord so that you can manage that kind of rejection or disappointment or whatever it may be.

Ian Cron: Yeah. Most of the time there's -- actually, you'd be amazed at how gracious and willing people are to have those conversations, and grateful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. Good. That's awesome.

Ian Cron: And then finally, ten through twelve are just really about cultivating a lifestyle that supports health and growth in those three other areas of your life: relationship with God, self, and others. Right?

So ten is continue to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. So I'm just going through life making sure that I'm not making a mess. And when I do, I fix it quickly.

Eleven, sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out. So that's just a matter of am I working on my relationship with God in such a way that I'm going through the day more consciously in touch with him than I was the day before. Just living with awareness.

And then twelve is having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we try to carry this message to fellow sufferers and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Okay. So notice this thing at the beginning of twelve, having had a spiritual awakening. Everybody tends to think that Twelve Steps are a self-help program, and that is not true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Yeah.

Ian Cron: Listen, self-help is a contradiction in terms. I don't even know why we have self-help sections of bookstores, because it's like if yourself could have helped yourself, wouldn't yourself have already done it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Why would we need books about it? Exactly.

Ian Cron: Yeah, why would we need to look to somebody else if we could help ourselves, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Oh, my gosh, that is such an illusion. Okay, that's so good. I'm glad you said that.

Ian Cron: So the whole point of the steps is not to self-help, it is to facilitate a spiritual awakening of sufficient force that it renders your need for addictions and attachments unnecessary. Now God is firmly at the center and you are drawing on the wisdom of all these steps all day long as kind of a pattern for living, rooted in the Gospel, that helps you live at peace with God, yourself, and with others.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm glad you went through those. Because you're right, I think a lot of us just look at Twelve Steps and we think that's for those who are addicted to alcohol and narcotics and it's self-help. And you just totally blew that out of the water, and I appreciate it, because what that sounds like to me is a humble, dependent, beautiful way to live.

Ian Cron: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I want to review -- I mean, I'm just super thankful for your book, because what a beautiful road to travel. And what I love, Ian, is you're saying -- what you earlier said is you do this every day basically. You speak these truths to yourself and you renew your dependence on God. And then look what you're doing even here and now, you are sharing this same hope, because of your spiritual awakening, to others who are fellow strugglers.

Ian Cron: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's beautiful. It's a beautiful way to live.

Ian Cron: Thank you. I think one of the things that I love about "The Fix," if I say so myself, Jennifer --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you may, you may.

Ian Cron: -- is that it comes with a 120-page workbook that's available to people. And so, look, working the steps is -- it's like working the steps, right? And so you need a plan. And the workbook actually walks people step by step through how to do these steps.

And I encourage people to get together with four or five others and do that together, right? Because community accelerates and deepens the work as you go along, right? I oftentimes say that we get sick alone and we get well together. It's just a pattern of life. And, yes, could you do it yourself? Sure. Benefit from it? Yes. Do it in community? Ten times the amount of return on investment.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word. Because I tend to want to figure it out, work it out myself, and then join others and tell them how I've done it.

Ian Cron: That's because you're a five, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, let's move there. You're right. The Lord has really taught me about that. So I do still have my secret study that I do, but I am trying to be more open. But let's go there.

Okay. So I cannot imagine that anyone listening isn't aware of the Enneagram. And, you know, this is -- thank you, Lord, what he has done in you. "The Road Back to You" is the best book, I believe. So we'll have a link to that also on the Show Note that Ian wrote about the Enneagram. It's just so comprehensive, but very accessible.

So, Ian, tell us what the Enneagram is, for those who may have just landed on Planet Earth a few weeks ago, and then I want to know if there's a correlation between somebody's number, Enneagram number, and their propensity toward addiction.

Ian Cron: Great question. So the Enneagram is a personality typing system that teaches there are nine basic personality styles in the world, one of which we gravitate toward and adopt in childhood, you know, as a way to cope, to feel safe, and navigate the new world of relationships in which we find ourselves. Now, each of those types has an unconscious motivation that really powerfully influences how that type habitually and predictably acts, thinks, and feels from moment to moment on a daily basis. Okay? Now, I love the Enneagram because it feathers and integrates so beautifully with the Gospel. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. I agree.

Ian Cron: And I can teach it from that perspective very, very easily.

Now, as far as personality -- like, here's what I always tell people. People will say to me, "Oh, I have an addictive personality," and I gently try to tell them that there's no such thing. There is absolutely no scientific evidence that there is such a thing as an addictive personality type. Now, I always like to say that, you know, addictions are equal opportunity enslavers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, sadly. That's good.

Ian Cron: I meet addicts of every single Enneagram type. You know, because, again, it's the human condition. It's not a subset of the population. You know, when we talk about alcoholics and drug addicts, they're just more visible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Ian Cron: Like, they're -- it's just more visible. Jennifer, I actually feel really sorry for people whose addictions are invisible, because they suffer quietly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Ian Cron: People like me, who eventually their problems become known to family and friends or colleagues -- right? -- like, we're lucky. We get spotted and we're given help. But I feel sorry for the poor workaholic who actually has people applauding them for continuing in an addiction that's hurting them, their family, their health, and their way of being in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: So again, there are no type types that are particularly vulnerable to addiction. I think it's pretty equal across the board.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which makes sense to me. But at the same time, I realize you can be -- well, I'm just going to use this word -- a mature follower of Christ who's an Enneagram 6, or you can be an immature follower of Christ who's an Enneagram 4. I think so much of it depends on our humility and our maturity, not our number on the Enneagram scale.

Ian Cron: Yeah. So you're -- you know, to be clear to your listeners here -- right? -- like, I love the Enneagram, but I am not nearly as enthusiastic about it as lots of other people are.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. Oh, my gosh. I love that.

Ian Cron: No. I mean, I'm always trying to talk people off the ledge of the Enneagram, right? They discover it and they just can't stop talking about it for about a year.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Ian Cron: You know what I mean?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And they've typed everyone in their world and -- yeah.

Ian Cron: Yes. Including their Golden Retriever. It's just unbelievable, right?

Now, I appreciate it and I just sort of give people a pass for a little while, you know. But eventually I'm going to say, Look, this is a really useful, powerful tool, among many powerful tools, that can help you figure out how to love God, yourself, and neighbor in a better, clearer way, but don't turn it into something magical or weird by saying this explains everything. It does not explain everything.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no. It confuses some things.

Ian Cron: Human beings are complicated.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right, right. We are. So we've got two more questions.

Ian Cron: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But this one I wasn't planning to ask, but I really feel like I need to.

Okay, so you've explained so much about all of our propensity toward addiction. But I know there is someone listening and she is thinking, Well, how do I help my husband? You have just exposed to me, Ian, that, man, is he addicted to fill in the blank, and I need to tell him all about this conversation. I need to get him with the picture.

How does that person -- what would you say to that person who wants to fix someone in her world because now she's just recognized, Oh, I think my person deals with addiction? What would you say to her?

Ian Cron: Yeah. You can't fix anybody. I hate to say it, but you can't fix anybody. The only thing that you have any amount of influence over is yourself. And having worked with lots of addicts and alcoholics in my life, I can just tell you, you can't. You have to work on yourself in such a way that it creates an environment in which the probability of the other person getting well will become greater.

So for example, if you're the spouse of someone that has a drinking problem or a porn problem or something like that, you need to join Al-Anon -- right? -- which is a support group for people that are in relationship with a substance user. Right? And when you go there, you're going to realize that you're really codependent, and in some ways you're as sick and crazy as the other person. Okay?

And part of the way that sickness shows up in your life is by your radical need for control and to make other people do what you think is the right thing to do. Okay? And you need to give that up because it's not working. It's driving you crazy, it's driving other people crazy. And you're not sleeping, you've become obsessed with this other person's problems. You got to deal with your own.

Now, when you deal with your own and you start to let go of the other person with a loving kind of detachment -- you know what I mean?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: Then what happens is you're allowing them to -- without enabling anymore, you're allowing them to experience the consequences of their decisions without rescuing them, and eventually -- with the hope that if they have enough consequences, they'll eventually say, Oh, I am powerless over alcohol or porn or drugs -- you know what I mean? -- and my life is unmanageable because I don't have another person in my life who's covering for me, who's trying to fix me, who's trying to stand between me and the consequences.

So I'll give you an example. And I have permission to share this. I have a son in recovery. Super bright, Ivy League educated. Developed a substance use problem, went to treatment a couple of times, finally got sober. He's doing fabulously now. And I will say, though, that we had to go through a season where we had to say to our son -- we had to say, "Now, listen, son, we love you, and we love you so much that we're not going to let you live in our house anymore."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, hard.

Ian Cron: "And we care so much about you that we're going to ask you to pack your stuff and leave in the next 60 minutes." "Well, I don't have money and, you know, you've given me money before. Where am I going to stay?" It's like, "Son, we know this is hard, but we just feel like we need to let you go until such time that you're willing and open to getting help. And when that time comes, we're here. We're going to be here for that. We're going to be all about that. But until you reach that point, we have to put you in God's hands and wish you well."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's hard.

Ian Cron: It's really hard. But we tried for couple of years to try and fix our kid, and trust me, it didn't work. Our kid had to reach a place where he was willing to enter into a relationship with God that would lead to his own healing on his own effort, not ours.

Jennifer Rothschild: Man, Ian, I appreciate you sharing that. I mean, that's the real stuff of life. And what it does, too, is it deepens the credibility of our conversation. Because you're not just throwing out theories. This is stuff that really you've lived and you've -- it's been a hard one for you to say, yeah, this is true, the Gospel is true. And whether you live it out and experience it through the Twelve Steps or whether you begin to know your own soul through the Enneagram, it's all the Gospel and just different tools to help us really become more deeply acquainted with our need and God's lavish provision.

I hate that we're at our last question, because I could listen to you all day. This is one of the richest conversations ever. And so, my people, get his books. We'll have links on the Show Notes. But let's get to our last question, Ian. We're going to end very practical.

Because I know some of us, our minds are swirling around with so much information and a lot of inspiration, but we need to know what's the first thing we can do. Okay. So give us one practical thing that someone can do -- because they've kind of gotten acquainted now with maybe a little bit more of themselves and of the potential they have in their relationship with the Lord. So what is one practical thing they can do, when this podcast ends, to begin this journey of restoration and recovery?

Ian Cron: Yeah. So two things to clarify. One, this book is really for two audiences. The first audience is for people already in active recovery who want a fresh take on the Twelve Steps through the lens of the Gospel and a way to work through it with themselves, with a small group, or even, if you're in a program, with sponsees -- right? -- people that you're mentoring. All right. So that's one group.

But the other group are people who don't necessarily identify as addicts or alcoholics, at least not on the severe end of the spectrum. And I always just tell people in that category, I say, Look, let's say you don't think you're an addict of any kind. Okay, fine. But do you want to have a better life? Do you want to experience more joy and freedom? And do you want to have a pattern for living that would really deeply enrich your life with God? Well, then just work the steps. Like, don't cop to being an addict of any kind, just work the steps. I promise you your life will be deeply impacted and enriched.

Now, first thing you can do is -- you know, for many of us it's a matter of really just owning what's the truth about ourselves. That's step one. It's interesting, step one is the only one you have to get 100% right. You got to do it perfectly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Ian Cron: You have to admit you're powerless over blank, that your life has become unmanageable. And if you can't cop to an addiction, let me just give you two words you could put in there and you really can't argue with. Can you say to me, we admitted -- I admit that I am powerless over sin and that it's making your life unmanageable?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ian Cron: All right. Can you admit to this one? I admit I'm powerless over my desire to play God and that it's making my life unmanageable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yeah.

Ian Cron

Now, if you can say yes to either of those, the Twelve Steps are for you. But you got to get honest first and do that step perfectly. Like, you can't have any doubts on that one. Otherwise, you won't -- the steps are difficult to do. They're very rewarding and worth the effort. But if you can't get step one right, you will not be motivated to do the work in steps particularly two through nine. You know what I'm saying? Like, you just won't be motivated. You won't feel enough desperation and need to do the rest of the work.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, our friends, wasn't that great? I hope you feel restored. You heard what he said, Get honest first. That's step one. Admit that you are powerless over -- fill in the blank, right? You can at least fill in the blank with sin or your desire to be God.

KC Wright: Yep. And we can all fill in the blank with one of those. But I have others. I need lots of blanks.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

KC Wright: This is all about connecting with God in a deep, dependent way, and it's also about connecting with yourself in an honest, humble way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's true. And it's about connecting with others in a very generous, vulnerable way.

And you know what, friends? I get it. Because when I started this conversation, I thought, I'm not an addict. Well, that took me about ten minutes to decide no. We all are. But I get it. You may not think you're an addict, but here's the question: Do you want a better life? Do you want more joy? Do you want more freedom? Of course you do. I do. And this book and this conversation helps you get a pattern for living.

KC Wright: So good. We all need to work the steps and we all need the book. So get the book. You can go to the Show Notes now at 413podcast.com/362 to connect with all things Ian, and that includes this incredible life-changing transcript. Okay? There are some Show Notes right there that you must read. There was so much good stuff here, I'm overwhelmed.

So, our people, get the book. You can get with a small group and do this together. And here's the best part. Of course, we're giving one away. So you know the drill. Go to Jennifer's Instagram right now to enter to win, or 413podcast.com/362. You will find a link on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/362.

Jennifer Rothschild: Excellenté. And also on that Show Notes we are going to have a link to that other book that I mentioned of his, "The Road Back to You." And then, of course, I'm going to add the Oura ring so all of you can get restorative.

Okay. This really was so, so good.

KC Wright: Yes, one of the best. See why I was restored?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, see?

KC Wright: Yeah. Well, our people, I hope you are encouraged and restored. Remember, whatever you face, however you feel, today, you're not alone. You can take the first step. You can work the Twelve Steps because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you can.

KC Wright: Happy anniversary --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, thank you.

KC Wright: -- Jennifer and Dr. Phil.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, next year's going to be 40. We're going to have to do something big bang like --

KC Wright: Big.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- like a river cruise.

KC Wright: Celebration.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like a Viking river cruise with all the other old people.

KC Wright: With confetti cannons.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay, that sounds good.