4:13 Podcast: Can I Get Over Feeling Awkward About Sharing My Faith? With Dr. Derwin Gray [Episode 360]

Dr. Derwin Gray: Research shows that most unbelievers, if invited to church, will go. Research shows that most unbelievers have never had a believer share the Gospel with them. And I think the best way to share the Gospel the most effective is to bear your testimony, to share your life. This is what I was like before Christ, this is how I met Christ, this is how my life has changed after Christ, and here's how you can meet him as well. And that is relational. That part of the conversation could take years or months.

Jennifer Rothschild: Everyone longs for love, especially God's love, even if they don't know that's exactly what they're longing for. So why is it so hard to share about the love of God with others? Well, lots of us, we really want to make a meaningful impact for Christ, but feel very inadequate, awkward, and afraid of just making a mess of things. So how can we communicate the love of Jesus that has changed our lives in a better way?

Well, on today's episode of The 4:13, Dr. Derwin Gray is going to provide a guide for sharing the Gospel. You're going to learn how to communicate the invitation of Jesus to a hurting world and discover how to manage maybe your reluctance or your fear or whatever it is that keeps you nervous about sharing your faith. I'm telling you, this is going to be encouraging and practical, so here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, my soul sister, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, guys, it's Jennifer here sitting next to KC in the podcast closet shoved under the stairs in World Headquarters, a/k/a the basement. We're so happy to be with you. It's two friends --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- one topic, zero stress. And you know our goal. It's just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13.

And I'm happy, today we've got Dr. Derwin Gray back with us. I just love him. If I were in his church, I'd be sitting on the front row every Sunday. But listen, he's going to be on the front row of your heart right now because you're going to get to hear from him.

But before we hear from him, I want you guys to hear from one of you, because you've been leaving such sweet --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- awesome reviews. KC, did you pull some up for us?

KC Wright: I have them right here. And once again, if you could, take some time today, or just whenever, you know, and leave us a kind review. Five stars, please. Feel the podcast hug. We just appreciate all of these reviews because they help us reach more and more people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: "So Jennifer, KC are so fun" -- CinSharp, she did this -- "so relatable, and the podcasts and guest speakers are deep and real and life-changing. I have enjoyed EVERY episode for a couple of years!"

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

KC Wright: CinSharp.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you, Cin- -- I think her name's Cindy.

KC Wright: Cindy?

Jennifer Rothschild: I bet it is.

KC Wright: Okay, you're an angel.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know. Or Sydney or whatever.

KC Wright: I feel the hug.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay, who else you got?

KC Wright: Sdisciple.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: "What a great podcast! I look forward to every podcast as I am challenged in my faith and encouraged and always finish with a smile on my face. Jennifer and KC make me feel like a valued friend!"

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you are a valued friend. I wish you were here right now. We'd shove you right in the closet with us and share some coffee.

KC Wright: Jennifer would make you a casserole, and we'd put a load of laundry on for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, actually I would. Laundry is my love language.

KC Wright: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love to do laundry for people.

KC Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway...

KC Wright: And all the smells. All the detergent and all the things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

KC Wright: Okay. Memypet, last one. Her little line -- you can put a little line on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like your title?

KC Wright: "Uplifting and inspiring. Love this podcast." She wrote -- this just touched my heart -- "So thankful." She said, "I am so glad that I found your site. New to these --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, good for you.

KC Wright: -- but what a great way to start my day."

Jennifer Rothschild: Man.

KC Wright: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, thank you, Memypet.

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is fantastic. We're so thankful.

KC Wright: We're so thankful, and we couldn't do it without you.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. We wouldn't want to.

KC Wright: Hey, I got to tell you really funny about my daughter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah?

KC Wright: This happened the other day. I think it was because I had too many expressos.

Jennifer Rothschild: What happened?

KC Wright: I picked her up from school and -- you know, I try to put myself in her shoes because, you know, school is hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And she's a teenager.

KC Wright: She has all these classes. It's like having seven different bosses redirecting you and bossing you around. And then she's got all these relationships, and it's public school, and it's --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's hard to be a teenager.

KC Wright: We did Christian school for a while and...

Anyway, long story short, she gets in the car, I'm trying to make her laugh. I think I'm actually going to start posting every once in a while on my social media an Elly quote, because they're killers, I'm telling you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. What'd she --

KC Wright: Anyway, I said -- she gave me an eye roll that you could see from space because I had laid out some dad joke for her. And I said, "Elly, you know what? You can have a fun dad or you can have a boring dad. The choice is yours." And she looked at me and she goes, "How about normal? Can we just go for normal? I'm just shooting and praying for normal." Anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh. I just got to say, because I know you so well, that is so true. It's so true.

KC Wright: I know. I knew you would be with Elly on that.

Jennifer Rothschild: I kind of am. No, I like you not normal. I like you, but you are very extra. You are. But it's fun. And you're right, I don't want you to be boring.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

KC Wright: Her bestie, Brooklyn, said, "Your dad, he is his own vibe."

Jennifer Rothschild: KC -- listen, Willis, you just take all this as compliments.

KC Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You just take it as compliments.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. You feel comfortable being you, and that's the way it should be.

KC Wright: Right. You want fun or you want boring?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: You want normal? Can we just have normal, says the teenager.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, I'll tell you somebody who is normal, but he is, like, exceptional, and that is Derwin Gray. We've had him on before. Y'all, we love him. So let's introduce him and get to this conversation.

KC Wright: Dr. Derwin Gray is the co-founder and lead pastor of Transformation Church, a multi-ethnic, multi-generational, mission-shaped church in Charlotte, North Carolina. He is a popular conference speaker, author of several books, including "Hero: Unleashing God's Power in a Man's Heart," "The Good Life," and "God, Do You Hear Me?" among others. Today Derwin and Jennifer are talking about his book, "Lit Up With Love."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that title. "Lit Up With Love."

KC Wright: Derwin earned a Masters of Divinity degree, with a concentration in apologetics, from Southern Evangelical Seminary and a Doctor of Ministry degree in the New Testament at Northern Seminary. Derwin and his wife, Vicki, have two adult children, Presley and Jeremiah.

All right. This is going to be good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. Get ready.

KC Wright: Here's Jennifer and Derwin.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Derwin Gray, Dr. Derwin Gray, we are so happy to have you back on The 4:13. It's been a little while. But for those of our friends who may have forgotten a little of your story, I want to kind of start there. Because you are currently a pastor, but you used to be in the NFL. So in this new book, you talk about how making it to the NFL, it just didn't give you that ultimate fulfillment that you were hoping for, but then one of your teammates shared the Gospel with you. Okay. So take us into this part of your story and tell us how it relates to this new book of yours, "Lit Up With Love."

Dr. Derwin Gray: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Before I share the story, one of the ways that God has wired us is that he uses sight and sound and voice and memory to remind us of his presence. And so as soon as we started talking, I got this, like, comforting feeling. And so the Lord is using you to minister to me through the non-anxious presence of your voice, and so I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. Thank you, Lord. That's beautiful. Thank you, brother. I love that. Thank you.

Dr. Derwin Gray: You're welcome.

So the year was 1993. I was drafted by the Indianapolis Colts. And so I was drafted to be a free safety for them. That just meant that I played on defense. Now, my mindset was -- when I got drafted by the NFL to play with the Colts, this was like my picture of heaven, because I thought, one, I'm going to make a lot of money and this money's going to fix all of the issues that my family had.

I didn't know what trauma was. Now that I look back, lots of trauma. There was lots of violence, incredible dysfunction. The Bible has a word for it: sin. And I thought money was going to be able to fix the sin problem. And actually, it didn't. It actually made it worse.

I thought the money and the status would allow me to see myself differently. Because in my context, my background, I had the worst house in the neighborhood, my dad has substance abuse issues, and I thought, you know, hey, if I make it, then I'm going to see myself differently. That didn't happen. And here's why...

Whenever a person's dependency of their self-worth is found in what they do, you can never do enough. And the NFL not only stands for National Football League, it also stands for "not for long." And so I knew that one day my football career would be over.

So from '93 to '95, the first year was tough. Second year was better. My third year, I'm doing really good. I'm playing good, I'm a team captain. But at the end of that year, I thought there's got to be more. The money hasn't fixed my problems, the money has not relieved my anxiety of wondering who I'm going to be when I don't play anymore. I can't love my wife the way she deserves. I've got anger, I've got bitterness.

I wouldn't have said I needed forgiveness for sins because I didn't know what that meant, but I knew if I could do more good things than bad things, I could make up for the bad things that I did. And the more I tried to do good things -- it was like taking a shower and scrubbing soap on yourself, only to see that you are more dirty than you thought. So that was 1995.

Backing up to 1993, I had a teammate with the Colts. His name was Steve Grant, but his nickname was The Naked Preacher. Because every day -- seriously, every day he would take a shower, dry off, wrap a towel around his waist, and then he would ask my teammates this question. He would say, "Do you know Jesus?" And in my mind, I'm going, "Do you know you're half naked?" Yeah, seriously.

And so I would talk to my teammates on the team and I would say, "What's up with the half-naked black man walking around talking about Jesus?" They said, "Don't pay no attention to him. That's The Naked Preacher." His real name was Steve Grant, but his nickname was The Naked Preacher.

And in 1993, he asked me a question that changed my life. He said, "Do you know Jesus?" And like every person who doesn't know Jesus, I said, "Well, I'm a good person." And he said, "Well, good compared to who? Because the standard of goodness is God. That's why God came in the person of Jesus to show us what goodness truly is."

And I began to think, "Well, if he's the standard, what can I do to reach him?" He says, "You can do nothing. But he's done everything to reach you. That's why he went to the cross to die for your sins. That's why he rose again to give you new life." And that began the little ember flames of being lit up with God's love.

And on August 2nd, 1997, my fifth year in NFL, my bank account is full, but my spiritual account is empty. And I'm walking back to my dorm room -- it was my fifth year in the NFL training camp at Anderson University in Anderson, Indiana, for the Colts. And I'm walking back to my dorm room and there was just a gaping void in my soul. Now I know that was the conviction of the Holy Spirit. And I got back to my dorm room, and I called my wife on the phone and I said, "Sweetheart, I want to be more committed to you and I want to be committed to Jesus." And that's when I was born again. That's when I was lit up with God's love. I felt the love of God, I felt the peace of God, I felt the forgiveness of God.

And for three nights after practice, I would get in my bed and I would just weep and cry and say, "How can someone like Jesus love someone like me?" Now I know that all Jesus has is people like me and you and the rest of the world to love. That's why the Scripture says, "But while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." And so that's when I got lit up with love.

And my whole life as a football player -- and all of humanity is this way. We're striving to prove we're good enough. We're working to show we're good enough. And so as a football player, if I played good, I could start on the varsity team in high school. If I played good, I could get to college. And if I played good, I could be a starter in college. And if I played good, I could get to the NFL. And if I played good, I could be a starter and get a contract.

And my whole life was performance, performance, performance, and then Jesus looks at me and says, "You can't perform good enough, but I am your good enough. I don't love you because you're useful, I love you because I'm beautiful."

And I have fell in -- this love relationship that I have with Jesus has continued to burn more brightly, and so my new book, "Lit Up With Love: Becoming Good-News People to a Gospel-Starved World," it's simply that. I'm writing it for people who want to experience God's love deeper, who wants that love to transform them, and then that love moves them into the world as everyday missionary with flames of grace to give cold hearts that need to be warmed by God's mercy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, Derwin, that's beautiful. Because what you just described too is so highly relational, you know, with The Naked Preacher, with just your relationship with Christ and the intimacy and the companionship that developed when you were born again. And so what I think is interesting is we tend to narrowcast that what your fellow teammate did with you was evangelism, you know, with a capital E, and it sounds so seminary.

And we talk about that word, and often it's very intimidating because it can feel very high pressure, you know, high stakes, like, oh, my gosh, if I don't do it the right way -- you know, I can't afford to get it wrong, they're going to go to hell, and so our hearts beat fast, our hearts race, our palms sweat. So I want to hear how you frame evangelism for the scared and awkward among us.

Dr. Derwin Gray: Yeah. So first of all, I want to apologize to fellow Christ followers, because typically what us preachers do is we teach people how to do confrontational, quote/unquote, evangelism only. And it kind of works this way...

You meet someone and you ask them a few questions. "Have you ever lied?" That means you're a liar. "Have you ever stolen?" That means you're a thief. "Well, you're going to go to hell, but Jesus came, so you wouldn't go to hell. Pray this prayer. If you pray this prayer, then you're good." And so it's almost like a judge, and you're a criminal, and you better do this, right? And that's a part of it, but there's a greater, bigger story.

We have a Father who wants to be with us. Even when you think about in the Garden of Eden, God walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the day. I believe that that is a Christophany, that that's the person of Christ. And even after Adam and Eve sin, God calls Abraham, and it moves on to the Nation of Israel and it's, "I want you to build a tabernacle because I want to be with you." "I want you to build a temple because I want to be with you." And Jesus -- God comes, "I want to be with you." When Jesus ascends back to heaven, he says, "I'm with you through the Holy Spirit in you."

And then at the end of the Bible, we see a new Jerusalem coming down to the new heavens and new earth and we see God is with his people. The incarnation is about God saying, "I want to be with you, and to be with you, I'm going to take what divides us, your sin, upon my Son and I'm going to reconcile you." And so what I teach throughout the book is not controversial -- confrontational evangelism, but more relational evangelism that flows out of a deep well of love. And it flows first not to people, but to prayer. And then secondly it moves to care. And then thirdly it moves to share.

But share is not a one-time event. It is being curious about people and listening to them. So for example, in the book there are several chapters -- for example, I talk about people being starved for hope. How is Jesus our hope? People being starved for rest. What does it mean that he's our Good Shepherd and he brings us to green pastures and quiet waters? People are starved for healing and new life. And so the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus clothed in God's love hits people differently according to what their needs are.

And so it's more like a dance, and not a one-time hit and run, but a relational idea. So for example, there's a coffee shop where I do a lot of my sermon prep at and where I write books at. And people go, "Why would you do sermons at a coffee shop? Why would you write books at a coffee shop? You're going to get disturbed." And I go, "No, it's not a disturbance, it's a divine appointment." I walk into the coffee shop and I say, "Lord, bring people to me that don't know you." And as I sit down, there are conversations, there are people who ask questions, and from that I've had hundreds, if not thousands, of Gospel conversations where I can cast seeds. Many people have come to faith. Some people are in the process of coming to faith.

I actually had an atheist guy one time as we're talking and I asked him what he wanted to be, he said he wanted to be a psychiatrist. I told him the need for psychiatry and mental health. And he looks at me and says, "I think more people have mental health issues because they don't have the hope that comes from believing in God." And I said, "You know what, my friend, you are exactly right. And I would like to invite you to church so that you can hear about this hope that you see that people need, that we all need hope. And hope has a name, and his name is Jesus."

And so throughout the book, I am walking with people, first and foremost, to experience the depth of God's love. Secondly, that that love begins to shape our hearts and our minds. And thirdly, that moves us to become good news to people that need it. And so we are equipped in how to share the Gospel in ways to share the Gospel, but most importantly, when we prayer, care, share, it's amazing what happens.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love those three concepts. Because often we feel like evangelism is that one-time conversation. Like when you're on an airplane, oh, my gosh, it's the final descent, I better go ahead and share the Gospel. You know, we've got such a narrow-casted view. But the prayer -- and the other thing you said, Derwin, that I think is really powerful is -- what I detected in that is you're saying basically you can't give that love if you haven't received it. So we got to really start living in the love.

And so I'm curious, if we've been transformed by the Gospel -- because most of our listeners have -- we are in Christ. We are born again. He has changed our lives. Okay. Like, it is the most important thing to us. So why is it so hard to tell people about it, even within relationship? What's the deal? Why are we so intimidated?

Dr. Derwin Gray: Yeah. My old mentor, Dr. Norman Geisler, when I would ask him questions of why, he would go, "Well, the devil."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Derwin Gray: That there are dark, demonic forces that whisper lies to us. In the book I talk about barriers to sharing your faith. And some of those barriers are fear of rejection, fear of am I going to say the right thing. There's also, which I think is the worst one, indifference, I just don't care. And so I actually walk with people how to use these barriers to draw us to Christ, and the barriers become a trampoline.

So, for example, fear of rejection. Well, when I share the Gospel, they're not rejecting me, they're rejecting the message. But what I have found is typically what nonbelievers reject is not the Gospel or the person, they reject if the person is a jerk or not.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Dr. Derwin Gray: Matthew 11:19 says Jesus was a friend to sinners. And then here's kind of some strong medicine for us to drink. Oftentimes we view Jesus from a consumptive perspective. And here's what I mean. We view Jesus as, okay, Jesus, you saved me, okay, Jesus, help me with my kids, help me with this, give me that; and that's the wrong perspective. Jesus saves us from sin, death, and evil so that we can participate in his life, in his mission, so that his kingdom will come to earth as it is in heaven. We're not consumers, we are participators.

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach. Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Derwin Gray: And overwhelmingly what I see from followers of Jesus is not, "I want to join you on mission," it's, "Jesus, here's my list of what I need you to do today, and preferably I would prefer for you to do it." And that's the wrong approach. The approach is we become the body of Christ. That Jesus, who right now is at the right hand of the Father in a blood-soaked robe, with piercings in his side, in his ankles, and in his wrists, says, "I make my appeal through you." So the goal is not comfort on earth, the goal is to be a comforting presence through the power of heaven on earth as we are God's people. So we're not consumers, we are participators.

As a pastor, I believe that there are a lot of pastors who are afraid to teach that message, and so they teach a consumer message so people can continue to come. And the thing is, what good is having a building full of consumers? That's not going to change the world. But I believe your listeners want to participate in the goodness of God's grace. They want to participate in the power of the Holy Spirit. They want what they do now to echo through eternity. I don't think they want to be consumers, I think they want to be like the Prophet Isaiah, "Lord, here am I. Send me. I'll go."

And you know where the going is? It's the grocery store --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Dr. Derwin Gray: -- it's the neighborhood, it's the school, it's the job. Research shows that most unbelievers, if invited to church, will go. Research shows that most unbelievers have never had a believer share the Gospel with them. And I think the best way to share the Gospel the most effective is to bear your testimony, to share your life. This is what I was like before Christ, this is how I met Christ, this is how my life has changed after Christ, and here's how you can meet him as well. And that is relational. That part of the conversation could take years or months.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, and the words that we speak have to match up with the life that we're living. So we got to be like Jesus, who said, "I didn't come to be served, I came to serve." And we need to be -- believers in Christ, we need to be the ones in our neighborhood, in our communities with the best reputation for love and serving so that our words are heard with respect and credibility.

Dr. Derwin Gray: Exactly. And, Jennifer, if I could add this. And this is why I wrote "Lit Up With Love." And the subtitle is, "Becoming Good-News People To A Gospel-Starved World." So the idea is because God has changed me, I want others to be changed. It's not simply go share your faith, it's I can't help but invite others into this love story. I can't help but say, Hey, I have found water for my thirsty soul. Hey, I have found bread for my hungry stomach. I have found life, and his name is Jesus.

And so what I try to do in this book -- and by the way, it's a short book. It's like 30,000 words.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Dr. Derwin Gray: I wrote it short because I want people to read it. I want them to read it in community, I want them to share it. And I wrote it short, but it can have a big impact. Because ideally, the greater you understand God's love, the greater you know what God has done for you, the more you want to share that, and you share it first and foremost with a life that becomes a God reflector to the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and you started this conversation talking about that need within you to perform -- I mean, we all have that need -- and this idea that really self is never going to satisfy self, and we keep trying to do that. So I think -- and I'd love your feedback on this. I think that there's no way to really share the love of Jesus with others unless we've really in some ways humbled ourself to really receive it and allow ourselves to be loved by Jesus and to understand we didn't deserve it, we can't lose it. And once we're really living in that love, then it would seem we've got something more naturally to flow out of us rather than just, have you lied? You're a liar. You know, showing the judgment. We're showing the love and how the love transformed us. Your thoughts?

Dr. Derwin Gray: Amen. For God so loved the world that he gave. Love, love -- love gives. One of the things, particularly in contemporary society, people are just exhausted. They are striving and achieving -- in one of the chapters, what I write about is being starved for rest. And I coach it in Psalm 23. And Jesus is the Great Shepherd in John 10. Jesus is the Shepherd; we are his sheep. And what does it say? In Psalm 23:2 it says, "And he makes us lie down in green pastures and leads us to quiet waters." So what is green pastures? It's life. Jesus came to give life and give it abundantly. He says quiet waters. Jesus is the living water. And the rest of the verse says, "And he renews our souls." So the rest we're looking for is not a vacation. Vacations are cool. But the problem with a vacation is you got to go right back to where you left.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Derwin Gray: Jesus is calling us to lay in his green pastures of grace and drink from his eternal well of living water, which is the power of the Holy Spirit. And so when we model that ourselves, when we live at the pace of grace, which I talk about in the book, it's different. When everybody's on a treadmill, we're walking with Jesus, and it's different. The way we live our lives is a, quote/unquote, evangelistic strategy because people are going to want to know, what is it about you?

And so what I've done in "Lit Up With Love" -- not only is it a book about sharing your faith -- that's the cherry on top. But the most important part of it, you're going to leave going, I had no idea that God loved me this way. I had no idea that this is who I am in Christ.

And if there are some mothers that are listening right now with children, regardless of the age, there's something powerful about a mom and their kids. You know, I read about Timothy. In 2 Timothy it says that Timothy, Paul's protege, learned the faith from his mother and grandma. If you want to teach your kids the Gospel, "Lit Up With Love" is going to help you be a non-anxious presence in their life. It's going to help you Gospel them daily.

So often we parent the action, but not the heart behind the action. Parenting the action is like putting a Band-Aid on a knife wound. We've got to parent the heart. And the Gospel goes to the heart and reminds our kids, Listen, God's love for you is not based on what you do or what you haven't done, who you are is not determined by what you do or what you possess. Who you are is determined by the living God of the universe who said, I love you and I want you. My name is Immanuel. I am with you. And through the power of the Holy Spirit, you can flourish and blossom and be the person I've created you to be. I come to you by grace, I hold you by grace, I keep you by grace, and I sustain you by grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach. Okay, Pastor, that's so good. That is really -- like your subtitle says, it's being the Good-News people. Not just sharing it, you're living it.

But I want us to get honest here, because I know people are tracking and like, oh, my gosh, this is so aspirational, I want this and I'm inspired. But there are some speed bumps on this practical pathway. Okay, so let's talk about some of the internal and external obstacles that we often run into when we're trying to share our faith.

Dr. Derwin Gray: Yeah. You know, there is a lot of ways to say it, but there are three things that keep people from coming to faith in Christ. So one is emotional. They have experienced maybe church hurt, maybe some abuse. Maybe they've just seen a bad example of Jesus. Secondly, there's the intellectual. It's like they have legitimate intellectual questions about Jesus, which is fair. And then thirdly there's what's called the volitional. Or the Derwin Gray way of saying it is there are sins I want to keep committing, and Jesus doesn't want me to commit them, and I want to stay in my sin.

So let's look at the first, the emotional barrier. There are people who will come to me and say, "You know what? I would consider Christ, but I read about all these sexual abuse cases and I've been hurt in the church." And they're surprised when I say, "I agree with you. Those things are wrong, and I'm sorry that you've experienced that. And, yes, throughout history there have been people who've used the name of Jesus to do horrible things, and I'm so, so sorry. People will let you down every time, but only Jesus was lifted up upon a cross."

And then I say, "I hear what you're saying, but keep this in mind. If you go to a symphony and the orchestra is playing Beethoven, and they don't play it good, don't get mad at Beethoven. It's the orchestra." So a lot of times there are people who represent Christ, who may not even know Christ, who've done some horrible things. But always keep your mind on Christ, and together let's walk through the hurt.

With the intellectual questions, I think there's so many resources now that we can study, that we can read to help people intellectually.

And then for the volitional, like, hey, I'm just going to do what I want to do, oftentimes what God does is he allows people to have what they want, and when it breaks them, he's there to put them back together again. Pretty much like the prodigal son in the story in Luke. The prodigal son leaves the comfort of his dad's house, goes to the faraway land, is used and abused and makes dumb decisions and is rolling around with pigs, and the lightbulb comes on, I can go back home. And as he's coming back home, his father has been waiting for him, and when he sees him, he runs towards him and embraces him. That's what God's grace does. There's no sin too big for God's grace. And so there are those barriers for us, for people.

And then once again, if you're a follower of Christ and there's hesitancies and there's barriers, ultimately what's going to break down those hesitancies and barriers to share your faith is the force of his love. Because when we get a taste of the glory of his love, we're like, there's no way in the world I'm keeping this. It's like having a cure for cancer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Dr. Derwin Gray: 1 Corinthians 5:14 says, "For it is the love of Christ that compels me." And so in the book, I give you strategy, I help you, I give you a playbook. But ultimately, I teach you about the depth of God's love, and that's what empowers us to move beyond the barriers.

And then lastly -- and this is what helps me out so much. Derwin Gray cannot save anybody. It's my job to cast seeds of grace and then go to sleep and let the Holy Spirit do what he does best. So there's no pressure on me. And throughout the book, the pressure is not on us to save anybody. It's the deep, beautiful work of the Holy Spirit that takes our words, takes the seeds of the Gospel, and roots them in people's hearts and eventually makes them grow.

In 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, the Apostle Paul says this: "I planted, Apollos watered, but the one who plants and waters is nothing but God who gives the increase." God is the one who saves. Our role is simply to throw as many seeds as possible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like you shared earlier, we use prayer, we care, and we share.

Dr. Derwin Gray: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it is the Lord who does the work. It's God who works in us, both to will and to work for his good pleasure, because he's not willing that any should perish. The pressure is off.

Okay, Pastor, I'm so glad this is only 30,000 words. My people, that means you can read that in about three hours, even if you're not the greatest reader in the world. So if for no other reason than you need to be reminded of God's love for you, you need to read this, and then I believe that love will flow from you and through you.

Okay. So, Pastor, let's get to this last question here. And I was encouraged by this. In the book you mention that you are not immune from being afraid of rejection. Like, you still -- you know, you feel it, you hesitate, you don't want to feel rejection. So when you're sharing about your faith, you try to not experience rejection. Okay. So --

Dr. Derwin Gray: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- how is it that you manage that? Okay? Because here you are, like, you're like what I would casually call a, quote/unquote, professional Christian. I mean, this is what you do, like, you share your faith. Okay. But you still fear rejection.

Dr. Derwin Gray: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what do you remind yourself of in those moments? And then what words of encouragement can you leave us with if we struggle with the same thing?

Dr. Derwin Gray: Yes. I want everybody listening to know that I, Derwin Gray, oh, my gosh, I can feel the fear coming up when the door opens for an opportunity with the Gospel. For those of you who may not know, I grew up as a compulsive stutterer, so speaking to people has never been easy. I'm like, am I going to say the right thing? Am I going to push this person away? All of those thoughts go through my mind. All of those things. And I constantly remind myself, Derwin, you have the greatest treasure the universe has to offer. By faith, share this treasure and trust God with the results.

I remind myself that it is for this purpose that God has placed me on earth to be a conduit of his mercy, to be a living portrait of his grace. And there's something beautiful about looking into the face of fear and seeing Jesus smiling, saying, "Come on, my precious one, I got you." And from that, there are times where I stumble and bumble and people come to faith, and there are times I stumble and bumble, and three years later they come to faith. There are people still who have yet to come to faith.

So I want to encourage you -- you're going to feel resistance, you're going to feel fear, but it is so worth it to look fear in the face and say, "Devil, not today. I've got Good News to share," and we share it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Look into the face of fear and say, "Not today, devil. I have the best news ever, and you cannot stop me from sharing it."

KC Wright: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: I love that he was also honest about his stutter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, man.

KC Wright: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Man, that takes this to a whole new level of inspiration. The stumbles and the bumbles are just the jar of clay. We have this treasure in jars of clay --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we do.

KC Wright: -- and it's the broken places where the light can shine through. He said for this purpose, God has put us here. We are living pictures of his grace. Wow. I'm pumped. We all need his book. We will have a link to it on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/360.

And we are also giving one away. Go to Jennifer's Insta @jennrothschild to enter to win. Or you can get there straight from the Show Notes too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay. All that you said, the stutter, the jar of clay, yeah, mm-hmm, thank you, Lord.

Okay. Anyway, this was great stuff today, our people. We love you. And I just want to remind all of us, we can do this. We can be lit up with love because we can do all things through Christ, who gives us strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And this podcast was brought to you by the not normal KC Wright. But next week we're going to be normal. We're going to be exceptional. You know with whom? Margaret Feinberg. She's going to be talking about the Holy Spirit. You want an extra exceptional life? We're going to talk about the Holy Spirit next week. Bring it on.

KC Wright: Yes.