4:13 Podcast: Can I Understand Spiritual Warfare? Dr. Joel Muddamalle [Episode 395]

Joel Muddamalle: Spiritual warfare is -- and I think this is actually seen pretty prolifically in the Garden of Eden. The issue isn't simply about the appearance of the serpent, the issue is about the substance of what comes out of the mouth of the serpent. It creates doubt.

And so the issue here is, like, oh, angelic beings, supernatural beings, would come to and fro from Eden, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve -- this is in Genesis 3. But what was uncommon, what was, like, odd, is for somebody to dare challenge the integrity and the character of Yahweh, of God, the goodness of God, to introduce doubt into relationship.

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know that God has both a heavenly and a human family? Have you ever thought about that? Well, me neither. Not until this insightful conversation with author and theologian Joel Muddamalle.

On today's episode, Joel is going to give you some straight-up sound Bible teaching that is going to cut through all the confusion that lots of us have about spiritual warfare. You are going to get a biblical and balanced understanding. So no matter what you've heard or been taught about this topic, oh, I promise you are about to get a brilliant framework for winning this unseen battle. So are you ready?

Here we go, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, our friends. Did you hear that voice? If you're here every week, you know we have missed KC.

KC Wright: Oh, it was only two weeks.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Well, you know what, though?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Technically --

KC Wright: Technically.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- it was even more because I did those conversations with my sons.

KC Wright: You're right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, like, people are in KC withdrawal right now because that's, like, four episodes in a row.

KC Wright: It's great to be back in the saddle again. And can I just say, you are looking -- oh, my goodness. You're looking fresh, you're looking sly.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm looking light blue, aren't I?

KC Wright: You're looking -- I love those sassy glasses.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so --

KC Wright: She's got sassy glasses.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, describe them. They're rectangle, right?

KC Wright: They are. And I noticed them as soon as I walked in. They've got a beautiful light tint blue that actually, in J.R. style, I'm telling you, match her pants right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Her pants.

KC Wright: And her shoes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Thank you

KC Wright: And her shoes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: I'm telling you, I come over here and I'm -- I live in gym attire. I'm in a Nike ball cap right now, a hoodie, and I'm wearing, like, gym pant things, whatever they are. Joggers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, joggers.

KC Wright: And J.R., every time I come over here, she's dressed for television.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no, I'm not. Well, so let me tell you why I'm wearing my light blue glasses. Okay. Well, first of all, let me say this.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, we've had the Hope of Heaven Tour. It's going on. And I've told all the ladies who come to the Hope of Heaven Tour to wear blue. And there's a reason.

KC Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because of the blue flower. And if y'all don't know about this, you need to do the Heaven Bible study or come -- even better -- to the Hope of Heaven Tour. You can still come in April. But it's -- I call it the color of heaven, so, of course, so I'm always attracted to blue.

But I'm wearing these light blue tinted shades right now because -- I didn't tell anybody this, because, you know, when you're in the middle of it, it's hard to discuss it. But I started the new year with a bad situation with my eyes. I thought it was a migraine. It turned out to be what they call -- oh, what did they call it? Acute angle closure glaucoma.

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Anyway, it was like -- I thought my eye was going to explode out of my head, and technically it probably would have. So what happens, KC, is we have natural eye pressure in our eyes, which should be 20 or below. Mine was 75.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: So here's the thing. If I could have seen, like, if I did have some eyesight, it would have damaged my sight. But there's a silver lining; it didn't. But anyway, it was very significant. And it ended up with having to go to the emergency room, some treatments. I was actually in Florida, so I had two emergency treatments. Then I had to fly home by myself, because Phil's parents were so sick -- which, by the way, let me give that little -- they both died within 25 days of each other, which we did not anticipate.

So this was also in the month of January. I came home and ended up having two eye surgeries. They corrected -- well, they did what they could to fix the left eye. But then they went ahead and did surgery on the right eye because they knew it was going to happen to that one eventually. So anyway, the month of January was quite a thing.

But here I am in March, and my eye -- my left eye, which was the most damaged one, is still dilated. So it has terrible light sensitivity. Which is a weird thing with blindness, because I can't see light, but my eye can still perceive it. So if you imagine what it's like being out on a really bright day or with your eyes dilated and seeing sun, it's painful.

So that's why I'm sporting some nifty shades. And I'm still not wearing mascara. I still will try to do it, but I'm trying to protect because I've got new lenses and new all sorts of stuff in my eyes. So anyway, there you go. That's my story.

KC Wright: My goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: But there is also always a fashion remedy to every situation.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's my silver lining, is I'm sporting cute glasses and not wearing mascara. Life is good.

But anyway, I did just gloss over real quickly, and I will say this. Phil's parents -- his dad died on Christmas Eve, his mother died, well, the day before my first surgery, January 18th. And Phil was such a stud. I mean, the way he took care of his parents and walked them Home was beautiful. And to see how he has grieved with hope, which is how we do grieve according to Scripture, it's been a beautiful thing. So, yeah, the Lord was good.

But I will be honest. I'm just now into my new year, here I am late March, because I decided it didn't start till February.

KC Wright: Right. I'm with you. Hey, lots of prayers for our Rothschilds, and lots of tears shed. And I'm just so proud of both of you, how you just keep standing and your faith is so strong and the ministry goes forward. And we don't grieve as those with no hope --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, we don't.

KC Wright: -- right?

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't.

KC Wright: But you're battle tested, which makes you stronger, which makes all of us stronger.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And not only are we battle tested, but we were victorious before it started.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And listen, we didn't do that on purpose, but what a perfect segue, KC, to what we're talking about today.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because Joel is going to talk to us about this unseen battle that we're always fighting. Where it came from, why it's a thing, and, even better, why it is not thing because we are victorious. So, yeah, let's get to Joel. Because I had a long conversation, and I want you guys to hear every bit of it from Dr. Joel Muddamalle.

KC Wright: Dr. Joel Muddamalle is the Director of Theology and Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries and the theologian in residence for Haven Place Ministries. He also co-hosts the popular podcast, it's called Therapy & Theology. Joel serves on the preaching team at Transformation Church with Pastor Derwin Gray and is the author of "The Hidden Peace." He lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, with his wife, their four children, and dog.

Here's Dr. Joel and Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Joel. I already told you before we got on mic how happy I am that you're back with us. And we're going to link to your last conversation that we had together because it was so good. But this one, I told you, I'm looking forward to it because of the subject.

So let me just ask you this first off. Okay. Sometimes we're a little wary or maybe freaked out about spiritual warfare conversations because sometimes it feels like, well, hyperbolic or sensational or maybe scary or just a little out of our league. So let's start with a biblically sound and healthy framework of what spiritual warfare is.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. One, Jennifer, thank you for having me and for this conversation. I think it's important.

I would say that a definition for spiritual warfare -- I kind of like to simplify things down to its kind of very foundation. And so I want to start with what is the story of Scripture? So the story of Scripture is simply -- and if I were to just, like, very -- like I explain this to my kids, you know. If I were to explain this to my kids -- and I do. I've got four kids that are 14, 12, 10, and 5. And so my daughter Emmy the other day was like, "Daddy, tell me about Jesus. Like, why do we read the Bible? Why do we go to church?"

And this is what I would say to her, and I did say to her. I said, "Babe, the story of Scripture is a story of a good dad who wants to have his family back together. And the way in which he gets his family back together is through his son, Jesus." And so that simple kind of statement is simple, but far from simplistic, because it kind of sets the stage for the question and the conversation around spiritual warfare.

The reality is that God is a good father, who's also the king of heaven and earth. Right? Like, he is the cosmic king. And he made his royal children -- Genesis 1:26-27 -- in his likeness and in his image, and yet sin and chaos and evil creates a series of separations between God and humanity. One theologian, I think, helpfully says "despoils Shalom," creates hundreds of thousands of ruptures in the created order that God always intended to be together.

And so spiritual warfare is simply this reality that there are two competing households. You have the household of God and then you have what Paul talks about in Ephesians as the sons of disobedience and elsewhere the prince of the power of the air. You have the reality of evil forces that absolutely hate God, and they hate us, and they want to work through deception, division, and destruction.

And so when we talk about spiritual warfare, I think it's really helpful for us to frame it within the conversation of a good dad who's determined to have his family back together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I love that picture. And you just mentioned that the big idea is that God has both this supernatural and human family.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So unpack that just a little more so that -- because I know for some, as you said that, that was like -- they're still processing. So unpack that a little more for us, Joel.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, absolutely. Often I think sometimes we come to the Bible with our kind of 21st Century understanding of Scripture or just what things have been told to us. And one of the things I've been passionate about in my book "The Unseen Battle" is to read the Bible on its own terms and to try to, for a moment, be hesitant to jump into the Bible with our own preconceived notions. So I just want to kind of jump from the text from the Scripture.

So this idea that God has a heavenly family and a human family might be, like, odd to some people, but let me just read from Ephesians 3:14-16. It says this: "For this reason, I kneel before the Father" -- look at those familial terms -- "from whom" -- this is so wild, Jennifer -- "from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name."

And so in the New Testament, Paul already presumes an understanding that God is a father, and as a father he has, what I try to argue in "The Unseen Battle," a two-family household. This household is made up of supernatural beings and humanity.

And the other evidence for this -- and we can go kind of wherever you'd like to go. But one of the distinctive phrases throughout the Old Testament to describe a part of God's family or these heavenly beings is the Hebrew phrase "sons of God." The Hebrew term there is "bene Elohim." And it's framed in the context of family. You've got sons of the Most High God. And in the context -- like, if you look at Job 1 through 2 or Job 1 and then 2, I think it's the first two verses of Job 2, and then it's Job 1, I think, like, 6 through 7 or 6 through 8, or Job 38:4-7, you have the exact same phrase, "bene Elohim," to describe a divine council scene where God is king and he's kind of doing his business as a king. And then you've got these angelic beings who are described as his sons, his children.

And so that kind of sets the framework for us to recognize that, once again, God is a good father, who's also a king, and he relates to humanity and all of creation-- I think it's kind of important -- not as a distant, disconnected, far-off deity, as all the other competing myths of the time, ancient or Eastern.

Think about the Mesopotamian and the Cainite myths, you know. Even in the New Testament, you get -- the Hellenistic world grows, and you've got Greek mythology and Roman mythology. And all of these deities are, like, almost bothered by humans, you know? And it's really fascinating to me because it's like all humanity wants to do is try to just get a glimpse of the deities' attention, try to just get them to pay attention. And the story of Scripture is the complete opposite. It's about a God who would dare to enter into humanity through the incarnation, through his son Jesus, and he's working in intimate ways and relating with all of creation in an intimate way.

And so hopefully that gives just a 30,000-foot kind of view that these are actually not new or novel ideas. In fact, we have -- in the 1st Century you've got Paul, and then you have Peter and James that are all -- and even in the letter Jude, you have this same understanding that's being presented. And in the medieval time with the church fathers, you get the same kind of concept that's happening with Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen, where they just kind of received and understood the cosmic element of the Scriptures.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is really good. And so much. And for so many right now, it could be a paradigm -- I was going to -- not even shift. A paradigm breaker and re-creator.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So in a moment I do want us to talk a little bit about the heavenly family, the angels, the divine council, that thing. Okay? So let's press pause on that part because I want us to go back to that. But in this family vein that you're talking about -- okay? -- that makes so much sense. I get it, I'm resonating. And so with any family, with any father, sometimes the children rebel.

Okay. So I know that in your book you talk about three rebellions in Genesis.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Which are, I think, Eden, the flood generation, and Babel. So you contend that -- like, you frame this conflict -- these rebellions actually frame this conflict we live in right now.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So kind of give us an understanding of that.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So I did my Ph.D. under two incredible scholars. My first reader is a guy named Dr. Patrick Schreiner. Patrick is a New Testament scholar, has done incredible work, "The Ascension." His dad, Tom Schreiner, is kind of like a prolific legend in Pauline studies.

And then my second reader was an Old Testament legend. His name was Dr. Michael Heiser. Mike was a Hebrew Semitic scholar. I kind of joke about Mike. Mike -- you know, it's -- original languages, Jennifer, it's like you're great if you can have a conversation and you're kind of thinking in the original language. You're a whole different level of intuition with the original languages when you can tell jokes in the language.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And Mike would, like, dream in Hebrew and Greek and Semitic languages, like -- he was that type -- I mean, he just was a legend, just so brilliant.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And so Mike was my second reader. He wrote an incredible book called "The Unseen Realm," which obviously you can kind of hear the title play off of words. In fact, my book "The Unseen Battle" was dedicated to Mike. As I was finishing my dissertation, Mike was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and I ended up being the very last Ph.D. student that he saw across the finish line. And defended my dissertation underneath him, and then, sadly, tragically he passed a couple years after that.

And so this idea of the three rebellions is actually something that Mike once said to me that absolutely shook me. Because I kind of grew up in the church. My grandparents are missionaries in India. All I've ever really known is the story of Jesus kind of all around me. And yet once Mike said -- and he's kind of famous for this statement. He said, you know, when you ask a Christian today why is there so much evil in the world, they would go, "Well, Genesis 3." Like, Genesis 3 and the fall. And then Mike would say, "That's so true."

But if you asked a person who lived in the Second Temple period, it is the time period of the second temple that was constructed and kind of those -- what we refer to as the 400 years of silence was anything but silent for many of the Jewish people who were trying to write and make sense of where they were in human history and what was taking place in the Old Testament. So there's a lot of writing that took place in that kind of 400 years.

And so if you asked a person who lived in that time period, "Why is there so much evil in the world?" they would respond, "Oh, you know, Genesis 3, absolutely." But, hey, don't forget that odd story in Genesis 6 with the sons of God and human women and the issue of the Nephilim. And then for sure don't forget about the Tower of Babel fiasco and the rebellion that took place there and the origin story of the gods of the nations.

And so this actually helps us, and it helps us, I think, today frame what spiritual warfare is. Because in each of these rebellions, you find rebellion in two spheres of existence, both the supernatural realm, which is, you know, God's angelic family or supernatural family, and the human family.

And so in Eden you have this serpent that shows up. The Hebrew phrase is "nachash." And that word in Hebrew can mean a guardian cherubim. It can mean a fiery bronze image and a literal serpent. I tend to believe all three are at play there. Jennifer, I don't know if you've ever kind of wondered, how come Eve doesn't just freak out when a snake starts talking?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Yeah. Because we would. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: Absolutely. Well, in the ancient world, whenever an animal started to speak, this was an indication that the gods were speaking, that there was some supernatural element to it. And also, if we remember, there are two guardian cherubim that are placed outside of Eden to protect Eden after the fall.

And so part of spiritual warfare is -- and I think this is actually seen pretty prolifically in the Garden of Eden. The issue isn't simply about the appearance of the serpent, the issue is about the substance of what comes out of the mouth of the serpent. It creates doubt. And so the issue here is like, oh, angelic beings, supernatural beings, would come to and fro from Eden. God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. This is in Genesis 3.

But what was uncommon, what was, like, odd is for somebody to dare challenge the integrity and the character of Yahweh, of God, the goodness of God, to introduce doubt into relationship. And so you have supernatural rebellion with the serpent, but you also have human rebellion because they succumb to that deception.

I always wonder, Jennifer, what would have happened if even Adam -- if they're like, You know what, Nachash, that's a really good question. You know what? Every day, at the cool of the evening breeze, Yahweh comes and takes a walk with us. Just hang out for a second, and why don't you wait until Yahweh shows up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Wow.

Joel Muddamalle: What's the serpent going to do? Run for its dang life, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: Like, it's not going to stick around.

Jennifer Rothschild: He can't appear before Yahweh. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: Exactly. And so the issue here is that Adam and Eve entertain a curious thought, and that curious thought leads them into temptation and doubt of the goodness of God. So you've got rebellion one.

Then rebellion two is Genesis 6, the phrase "sons of God." The clearest understanding of the sons of God from my perspective -- and there are theologians and scholars who would disagree with this interpretation. And I deal with that in my book and try to give a response to those views. The common kind of human view of Genesis 6 is what was referred to as the Sethite view. I personally don't think the Sethite view is convincing for a couple of reasons.

One, you have to kind of impose a lot of things into that. The Hebrew term "Adam" means humanity. And in Genesis 6:1-2, you would have to then say that humanity in the first instance is the righteous line of Seth. But in the second instance, it now refers to the daughters of Cain. Which you just don't find in the text, and you don't find that kind of elsewhere in the Bible, so that's a challenge.

And the second probably biggest challenge is how do you get Nephilim from just a group of people who marry based off of, like, a lack of morality? You know, you've got a righteous line versus an evil line and they produce these giants. Like, that kind of doesn't -- you know, that's not super coherent for me and so I kind of have a challenge with that.

And so I like to interpret the Bible -- at least this is my hermeneutical method -- based off of what we find clear. And what we find clear, I then want to try to track that onto these unclear passages, right? So where do we find the Hebrew phrase, "bene Elohim" the clearest? Well, you actually find it in Job 1 and Job 2 and Job 38. And that exact same phrase, "bene Elohim," is seen in context as angelic divine beings.

And so I would want to then take that and then another famous passage, Psalm 82, and then read that and say, I think the clearest way to understand this and to see the coherence of it is that you have angelic beings who in rebellion go into and exchange -- have unholy union with human women, and the production of that are these giants called the Nephilim. The Hebrew word "Nephilim" in the Septuagint, the Greek Bible -- the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, they translate that word as "gigas," which is giants. And Goliath comes from the line of the Nephilim. He is a giant from the giant clan of Gath. I mean, you kind of find this issue that is coming up.

And there is a story -- this is going to sound a little interesting, Jennifer. So just understand that for people, it's like, wait a minute, Joel, what is kind of going on? Let me give an example.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: So today -- I grew up in Chicago. I'm a Chicago kid through and through. So, Jennifer, you and I have never had this conversation, so this is risky for me to even say this -- right? -- in the interview.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. No, good. I love risk. Go.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay, okay. So here we go. If I were to say to you, Jennifer, who is the GOAT, MJ or LeBron, what would be your response?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. I don't know because I'm not from Chicago. But I'd say Michael Jordan just because -- isn't he older? I would assume he's the greatest of all time.

Joel Muddamalle: You're the best. You're the absolute best. Okay? And here's why. Because without me giving an ounce of the context -- and this was a little bit scary for me because I don't even know if you're a basketball gal or anything, right? It was kind of scary. Like, wait a minute. How did you know that when I said MJ, I was talking about Michael Jordan?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I just remember from back in the day. Wasn't his number even 21 or 23? I don't remember.

Joel Muddamalle: Twenty-three. Yeah, 23, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And then when I say GOAT, what am I referring to?

Jennifer Rothschild: The greatest of all time.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. But how did you know that I wasn't, when I said MJ, referring to Michael Jackson? And how did you know that when I said GOAT, I wasn't referring to a furry animal called a goat?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't know. Because you said you were Chicago, yeah --

Joel Muddamalle: Right, context.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and so I know basketball. Yeah, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And you live in a contextual moment where that all makes sense. I don't feel the need to explain all those details to you because you understand it, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Joel Muddamalle: Now, in 500 years from now, maybe even a thousand years if the Lord tarries, those terms are going to have to be defined, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they will. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: People are going to have to figure out, wait, what did they mean in that podcast interview about -- like, are they talking about a furry animal and that animal's name is MJ? And why are they putting two furry animals named MJ and LeBron in competition? Like, you can see how this can --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: -- go sideways really quickly without the context.

Well, at the time of Genesis 6, there was a story that was already well known in that time period, that the biblical authors themselves knew. In fact, Peter and Jude both quote this book. It's a book in Second Temple literature called the Book of Enoch. And I want to be very careful here. The Book of Enoch is not canon. I don't view it as canon, I don't view it as inspired, none of that at all.

But what the Book of Enoch is is insight into the cultural context of that moment. And we know that God in his sovereignty chose to give us the canon of Scripture through human authors who lived in time and space, and he divinely inspired them and protected the text and guarded it, and yet still allowed for there to be personality. Like, when I read Paul, I'm always like, man, Paul's kind of passive-aggressive, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Intense. Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: You know, when I read John, I'm kind of like, man, John's kind of a goody two-shoes. Like, he's always bragging about his relationship with Jesus. You know? Like, oh, gosh. But I love that because it brings the Bible to life.

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Let's get back now to our conversation.

Joel Muddamalle: So in Genesis 6, there was already a pre-understood story, and the story is the story of the watchers who came to Mount Hermon. And when they came to Mount Hermon -- this is the background of this entire story of Genesis 6 -- they come into an unholy union. They give humanity access to knowledge that they were not prepared for. I mean, that sounds like an echo of Genesis 3, doesn't it, right --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure does.

Joel Muddamalle: -- the knowledge of good and evil, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure does.

Joel Muddamalle: And then the production is these giants, these half-breed beings that cause havoc and evil throughout the world, which is what necessitates in Genesis 6 the story of the flood. And so what you have in Genesis 6, this second rebellion, is a rebellion of a transgression of domains. Angelic beings were given a task and a vocation and responsibility, and yet these beings transgress. They go past the domains that they were given, and the result is evil and chaos in the world.

And the last one, for the sake of time, I'll summarize it -- you can read all about this in "The Unseen Battle" -- is the Tower of Babel.

Genesis 11 opens up with the story of the people going to the plains of Shinar. And in the ancient world, mountains were very, very important because the mountains were the place where you communed with God. And if you go to a plain and there's no mountains, you're like, uh-oh, we're in trouble. And so what do they do? They build what's called a ziggurat temple tower. In fact, archeologists have found these exact figures -- there's actually one archeologist who thinks he might have even found the actual Tower of Babel itself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Joel Muddamalle: And there's a phrase for it, and I'm blanking on the name. It's like, Entemenanki or something like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, we wouldn't know if you were right or wrong, so you could just fake it.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Well, it means, like, the tower of heaven or something like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gotcha.

Joel Muddamalle: And what they found was -- at the very top was a room for the deity to come down, and then there was a priestly kind of housing location at the base of the tower. And so what you find with the rebellion here in Genesis 11 is -- you see that humanity is tasked to make the name of God great. That's the goal.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's our goal, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: What happens in Genesis 11 is they want to make their own name great.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: It's an inversion of it, right? It's arrogance and pride. And so they try to force God to come down by building a tower that goes up, and yet God comes down and diversifies their language. He takes the one language away so that they disperse.

And this is one of the things that I kind of just think is so amazing, is that even in the midst of human rebellion, God still works so that his mission and his vision is executed throughout the world. And the goal was for them to go out into the world. And even in the midst of the rebellion, his task, his mission, his vision still happens.

Now you might be wondering, Joel, how do you know that there's -- like, this just sounds like human rebellion. Where do you get the supernatural aspect here?

Well, there's a phrase in Genesis 11 where God says, "Let us come down and confuse their tongues." That Hebrew phrase, "Let us come down," is a telltale sign of God speaking to his heavenly host, to the divine council. And it's kind of fascinating. It's the same verbiage that's used in Genesis 1:26. And Hebrew scholars call this the plural of majesty, and it's used actually in other places to describe the divine council.

And then you have a more explicit reference, which is Deuteronomy 32:8-9. It says this: "When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind." Well, when did God divide mankind? The Tower of Babel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: "He fixed the borders of the peoples according to" -- and this is amazing -- "the number of the sons of God. But the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob is his allotted heritage." And so if you've ever wondered where did the Jew and Gentile distinction come from, it came right here in Genesis 11. Because in Genesis 12, you have the story of Abraham and the Abrahamic covenant that God would take Abram out of Ur of the Chaldeans -- which in interesting detail, Ur of the Chaldeans, Jennifer, is geographically in the same area of Babel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, I never knew that.

Joel Muddamalle: It's amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so cool.

Joel Muddamalle: So God reaches into the epicenter of rebellion -- right? -- grabs one family and says, Actually, through your family I'm going to create a path to have my family back together. Because all the nations of the world actually belong to me, and so through you, you, Abram, will be a blessing to all the nations. And this is restated in Genesis 12, 15, 17, and 22.

In Deuteronomy 32:8-9, it's this phrase "the sons of God," which is really important. There's a little bit of textual stuff that's going on here. If you look at some of your Bibles, like NIV or CSB, it might say "Sons of Israel." ESV says "sons of God." Well, why the distinction there? It's because in some manuscripts -- it's called the Masoretic text -- the phrase is "Sons of Israel."

But the challenge is in the Septuagint, the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, the earliest trans- -- which the Septuagint is actually earlier than the Masoretic text -- the language there is "the angels of God." So it's like, wait a minute, why would the Septuagint have a cosmic view of this, but the Masoretic text has a human view of this?

And then the Dead Sea Scrolls are found, Jennifer. And this is where things get really interesting. Because the Dead Sea Scrolls are significantly earlier in dating than the Masoretic text, and arguably the Septuagint as well. And so with that, guess what they found? They found the phrase "bene Elohim" for Deuteronomy 32:8-9. And that affirms that the appropriate reading, the right reading, is this cosmic reading, which actually sets the framework of the gods of the nations.

Because you'll notice after this and throughout Deuteronomy, throughout Leviticus, all throughout the Old Testament, the issue is for the people of Israel not to be tempted by the gods of the nations. Don't follow after Baal, don't worship at the Asherah poles, don't -- you know, if you read 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles, I mean, these deities are everywhere. They're the ones who lead Solomon astray. I mean, he marries all these wives, and the gods of the wives lead -- I mean, it's just like it's chaos. And it's like, well, where did all this happen? Right here, Deuteronomy 32:8-9.

Deuteronomy 4:19 and elsewhere, there's this warning, which is to the Israelites, don't look to the heavens, the starry heavenly host, don't look to the moon and the stars, and don't bow in worship to them because they are not allotted to you. They were never given to you.

And so what we're told is just that this happened. We're not told how it happened or the details behind it, just that this was the fact that the gods of the nations entice humanity to worship themselves, and in so doing they become the false gods of the Old Testament that are absolutely trying to deceive people, to divide the people from God, and ultimately lead people into their own self-destruction.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And this right here, my friends, is why we study Scripture. I'm telling you, Joel, you answered some questions for me that I have been asked before and I truly have not really known, like the sons of God. And that was so thorough and so helpful and such a great foundation to where I want us to go next.

I want us to go from that global understanding of basically our human history to the history we're living right now. Let's make this very personal right now, in Joel's life, in Jennifer's life, in all of our listeners' life, where do you see this unseen battle that began with these three rebellions? Or at least was made manifest in these three rebellions. Where is it being waged most right now in our lives?

Joel Muddamalle: Well, we could do a whole other episode on this. But Paul's language in the New Testament is powers, principalities, authorities, and thrones. And what Paul is talking about is -- he's actually got a play on words here where he has in mind both cosmic beings and human institutions or systems and structures that the enemy uses to entrap us. And so think about Genesis 4. You've got God's warning to Cain, Be careful, the enemy is waiting. Sin is crouching and waiting for you. This is the tactic of the enemy. The enemy is so incredibly patient, Jennifer. The enemy is laying traps and watching and observing.

And a couple very important theological clarifications that I want to make. One, the enemy is not God. This is not like the Asian yin and yang idea that you have co-equal powers and there's this eternal tug of war. That is not what we're talking about. We're talking about the victorious King of heaven and earth, Jesus himself, the uncreated Creator who creates everything. And it's the created order that goes into rebellion. And so God is already victorious, we're just watching in human history as he accomplishes his victory in and through humanity and through the church primarily.

And why I use that as a starting point into the practicality of this is because the enemy is not omniscient, they don't know all things; they are not omnipresent, they cannot be in all places at all times; and they're not omnipotent, they're not all powerful. They do have a high degree of knowledge because they've been around for a very long time and they're observing. They have a high ability of even power as supernatural beings, and yet they are not in totality those things.

And the biggest issue is their limitation in time and space. And this is why, if we think about spiritual warfare today, I would suggest that we don't get distracted by -- this might sound interesting -- but we don't get distracted by what people often refer to today as power encounters with demons, you know. It's like demonic exorcisms and these power encounters and hauntings. And hear me clearly. I believe those things happen. I think that there's a real enemy who hates us. So I'm not saying that those things don't happen. I want to distinguish between what is normative and what is non-normative. And so the non-normative would be exorcisms and demonic possessions or extreme levels of oppression.

But what is normative in terms of spiritual warfare? Here's what it is. I remember, Jennifer, when I first got Instagram. And you would scroll to the bottom, and you would get done and it would say, "You're all caught up. Congratulations." The first thing that left Instagram was that feature.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Joel Muddamalle: Now you and I have the endless scroll. And as we are endlessly scrolling at night -- I mean, I find myself doing this sometimes. Sometimes -- this is so wild -- I will reach for my phone to scroll, my phone is in my hand, and I start to panic like, Where's my phone?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Yes, I've been there.

Joel Muddamalle: You know? And it's like, Oh, wait. This is an indication that there's an issue of dependence that is being exposed in my own heart. And so what the enemy wants us to do is to be dependent on anything and everything other than the total source of dependence, which is God himself. And so I'd want us to just be very keenly aware of these vices. Paul uses the vice lists throughout his letters, the vices of the flesh, the vices of the heart, the vices of the mind, that the enemy loves to use neutral things to make them ultimate things so that they always become idolatrous things.

And this is why I go back to these kind of three words, that the enemy wants to deceive us, you know. It's like, it's not a big deal, it's just social media. Of course you want to know what your friends are up to, until you're comparing yourself with every one of your friends. You're not a good enough mom, right? Because look at the other moms that are doing all the things and taking their kids to all the travel sports and doing -- and here you are just trying -- and it's like, Wait a minute. That's not what God thinks of you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Joel Muddamalle: This isn't the truth of God's identity for who you are, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Joel Muddamalle: Or it's the dad who's like, Man, I'm just working as hard as I can. And you scroll and you're like, well, look at this, dad. He's taking his kids and his family on Disney trips and this and that, and they're -- and it's like, well -- it's like, Wait a minute. That's not what God thinks of you. This is an enemy who's trying to expose us to more information than we know what to do with to allow the sinfulness of our flesh and the insecurity and the anxiety that is inside of us to actually create our own spiritual turmoil and our own spiritual warfare.

And so I want us to be aware of the systems and the structures that the enemy loves to establish so that the enemy can go spiritual warfare mass market. Things like social media, things like -- I'm just amazed at the opioid addiction that's happening right now. Over-the-counter pills. Pornography. My goodness. The rise of AI. I mean, I think that there's something really amazing about AI, and I think there's something that is very devastating about the potential of AI being misunderstood, misused, and really weaponized against humanity in our own hearts.

And so I think these are the ways that -- all of what we talked about, if you think about the three rebellions, it's like Genesis 3 and knowledge. Look at ChatG -- look at what's presented to us. We have more knowledge than ever before, and yet I'm kind of convinced we're becoming a dumber people, not a smarter people because of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. We're not thinking. Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: We're not thinking. Exactly. We've lost discernment in the process, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, right.

Joel Muddamalle: Think about Genesis 6 and the sons of God, the phrases that they use. They see human women, they desire the human women, and they take the women. Whenever those three phrases in Hebrew are put together, see, desire, and take, it's always bad, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: This is the exact same phrase of David. When he sees Bathsheba, he desires her and then he takes her for himself. Like, this is how the enemy wants to present something that is in a neutral sense beautiful, but then wants to make you believe that you deserve it, and the only way that you can get it is if you take it of your own accord. And so that's what we're finding with sexual addictions, that's what we're finding with pornography, that's what we're finding with alcoholism, that's what we're finding with these kinds of vices. And really, Genesis 6 puts that in the forefront for us.

And then the last one is Genesis 11, is that pride. Like, I want to make a name for myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: I want to make a name -- and I remember once, Jennifer, John Piper in a Passion Conference early, early on -- and I remember I was so -- just convicted -- he used this illustration of asking, what scenario would you be more satisfied in the Lord with? If your name was exalted, God used you -- I mean, I think -- let me personalize it for myself. He uses your books, you become a best seller. Like, you speak all over. Like, you do all these things, and in that God's like, I'm going to make my name glorified.

Or the second option God determines is, like, actually nobody will ever know your name, nobody's ever going to read any books of yours. It's actually in the sight of the world to all be flops and failures. And yet, in and through that, that is the way my name is going to be the most magnified and the most glorified. What does your heart actually rest in? And the sinfulness in my heart always says I want one. I would hate two. And yet the Lord is saying, like, And by the way, either/or, are you satisfied in who I am?

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah.

Joel Muddamalle: And so that for me has been like, oh, this is the crux of spiritual warfare. It is a question of dependence, it's a question of aim and ambition of my loves being rightly ordered and my allegiance ultimately to King Jesus. The enemy wants us to be in a conflict of allegiance and in disorder with our loves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course he does. I'm so glad that you made that so clear, Joel, because that really is where we live. And I've often thought when I don't live circumspectly and humbly, then I inadvertently just turn over all those things. My pride, my messed-up allegiance, whatever it may be, I just turn it over to the enemy, like, with an open hand and say, Here you go. Here you go. Destroy me. I'm here. I've gotcha. And that -- we belong to Jesus and so, yes, may we humbly bow at his throne and confess sin and walk humbly, Micah 6:8, our whole life. You know, seriously, walk humbly with our God.

Okay. I am so thankful, number one, for your scholarship, your thoughtfulness, your ability to communicate with such clarity some very difficult and deep things. So I am highly recommending this book. We're going to have a link to it on the Show Notes 4:13ers. We're going to get to our last question, Joel, because clearly this can't be covered in a conversation. We need to go deep in the book. And, of course, your Therapy & Theology Podcast with Lisa. Just so many resources that God has gifted you with.

But let's get to our last question. Because I'm listening to you -- okay, so as a scholar, Ph.D., you've done this great work. As a follower of Christ, you've fought this battle. Okay. So now let's say that this is not the 4:13 Podcast, but you are talking right now to either a very thoughtful skeptic, or maybe it's a Christian journalist and they're very curious and they ask you, Come on, Joel, why does this unseen battle really matter for me? Okay? You just gave us the history of it, but why does it really matter for me, like, right now this week? How would you answer them? Why does this really matter?

Joel Muddamalle: Okay, I'm going to answer in two ways. Here's the first one. I want to ask a hypothetical question. If you are a follower of Jesus, would you say that this is a true statement?

That the foundation of our faith is built on the belief that God created all things, that he's the uncreated Creator, that he sent his son Jesus, who is 100% God, but takes on humanity, comes into humanity through the incarnation, immaculate conception, literal virgin birth, lives a perfect life, dies on a literal Roman cross, goes into the grave, defeats sin and death through death itself, rises on the third day, hangs out for a period of 40 days, just to kind of prove the point, and then literally, in front of his disciples and eyewitnesses, ascends to the right hand of the Father, which is where he rules and reigns today.

What part of that, my friends, is not supernatural and cosmic in nature? I mean, all of it is. And so it's like -- the question of why should this matter, I would just say, like, if we lose one of the cosmic elements of the story of Scripture, particularly in the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus, it's like we've lost it all.

So why would we want to intentionally or unintentionally live a life absent of the supernatural element of the Scriptures from Genesis through Revelation? Why would we want to allow ourselves to be confused instead of seeing clarity that comes through the cosmic Christ? So that's that part.

And the second part is very simple, but far from simplistic. It's a quote from our friend Jim Cress, who is an incredible therapist on the Therapy & Theology Podcast. It's because you have an enemy who hates you. Like, you have an enemy who actually hates you. And this enemy knows that he and they could never defeat the King of heaven and earth. But you know what could grieve the heart of God, who is a good father? For this enemy to deceive, to divide, and to destroy God's human children.

And so I kind of think of ourselves as that frog, the illustration of the frog in a bowl, you know, on a burner.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: It's just cool and the frog's totally chill, totally fine, and the burner heats up. But then the frog just gets desensitized to the heat until eventually it is just burnt alive.

And my concern for us today is that we are that frog in that water and we're living in a climate that is becoming more spiritualized than ever before, and yet we're becoming desensitized to the truth of the Gospel, and we're being conned and deceived into alternative spiritual practices that will not make us better people, it will not save us. It will lead us into destruction. And the answer to this is the Gospel, and the Gospel is cosmic in nature.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you heard Dr. Joel. He quoted Jim Cress, You have an enemy who hates you. And here's the thing. He knows he can't defeat Jesus, but he can sure try to defeat you. He is ready to deceive you, defied all of us, and destroy you. He wants to do it to you because he knows that's how he can get to God. That's how he can most hurt God. So we need to be alert and awake.

KC Wright: And get out of the pot on the stove that is slowly heating up. We do need to live awake and aware and like the victors that we are. We're the head and not the tail, we're above and not beneath.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: This book is a rich, rich resource, and it's such a deep biblical exploration. I am really thankful for this resource, for the body of Christ, and I'm going to really think through those three rebellions he taught.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? That was new to me.

KC Wright: I'm going to listen to this again. And I want to go to the Show Notes, just like you do. But I've never thought of all this this this way.

So we will have a link to this book on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/395. That's 413podcast.com/395, so you can get the book. But really, you and I need to read this transcript. It was so good. There was so much there.

So friends, family, 4:13ers, we love you. But here's the word. Stand strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Put on the whole armor of God. And when you have done all you can stand, keep standing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Keep standing.

KC Wright: -- just like J.R. is. Just like I am.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, me too. I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can.

KC Wright: And notice that armor is only for the front. It doesn't cover the back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Why not?

KC Wright: Because we're not supposed to be running backwards.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: We're supposed to be advancing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: We're a force to be reckoned with because greater is He that is in us that he that is in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach.