4:13 Podcast: Can I Make Wise Decisions? With Katie M. Reid [Episode 373]

Katie Reid: Whether you're just getting ready to enter into adulthood, or maybe you're an empty nester or you are faced with a big change in your life, I think we can get paralyzed with all the options and what do we do about this and what do we do about that? And so I want to look at what are some of the decisions we can make every time, even when we don't know specifically what to do about a given situation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Uncertainty about the future, like even the next step, can paralyze you and keep you from making important decisions, or it can make you second guess every decision that you do make. You just want to be sure that each choice is the right one, right? But how do you know? And what if you're wrong?

Well, today's guest, author Katie Reid, is going to draw from the stories of Deborah and the early judges to show you how you can make wise decisions. She's going to give you six biblical principles that you can apply no matter what decision you face.

I really love this conversation, and I know you're going to, so, KC, let's get this going.

KC Wright: Let's do it. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. I hope you've had a good week. KC and I are down in the closet here together, and we were just complaining that we are hot. Not the good kind of hot, the sweaty kind of hot.

KC Wright: Yeah, it's a little -- it's a little --

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a little toasty in the closet.

KC Wright: Humid.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

KC Wright: Why is it humid in here?

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know. But we are going to warrior on and soldier through this. Just don't imagine us too sweaty. We look good when we glisten.

KC Wright: Oh, it's a sauna. We're losing weight as we speak.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that is what we're doing. But our goal is just to help you and us be more than we even feel capable of through living this "I Can" life, Christ's power in us. And, of course, his two friends, sweaty, with one topic and zero stress.

But I will tell you this. Not only are we sweaty and hot, but we were very confused before we went on mic and this was cracking me up. So Gretchen in our office, whenever one of you wonderful 4:13ers sends us an email, she will often print it out and leave it on KC's computer. So he comes in, I don't know it's there, and he starts reading. And it's this sweet email. And he's reading little pieces and he said, "Oh, it's from Katie Reed." I said, "Katie Reid? That's who we're talking to today."

Okay, so we have been so confused. But we just learned that the Katie Reid, who we are talking to today, has a different spelling of her name. But whoever you are, Katie Reed, KC's going to read some of your sweet comments because they were just really kind and we want to give you a big shoutout.

KC Wright: Absolutely. Thank you for this. It says, "Dear Sweet Jennifer and KC." First of all, how kind is that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we are sweet.

KC Wright: "Wow. Your podcasts are so good. To God be the glory."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: "So inspiring, so encouraging, and this one was as well." And she goes into this podcast that just touched her heart. But she goes on to say, "Thank you for all your positive, encouraging episodes. I don't think I've heard even one that did not hit home in an encouraging way.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

KC Wright: Katie, that's answered prayer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. I love that.

KC Wright: We pray that. "Way to go. May you always and forever be richly blessed, both Jennifer and her own Dr. Phil and KC and his Elly. You are loved. And, Jennifer, if you are ever in my area, I'd love to come hear you speak live. Your Bible studies are so good." And I give that a hearty amen, and I know you do too.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's sweet. Wow, I love that. Thank you, Katie.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what? We got another -- KC, I didn't even tell you this yet. But we got another sweet review, and this one was on the Apple podcast platform. Oh, man, maybe it was a few weeks ago. I don't know when you read it. But it was from -- we said David Smith. Okay?

KC Wright: Oh, yes, I remember this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Okay. And it was really great review. Well, I got an email last week, or sometime recently -- listen, the older I get, everything was last week, so...

Anyway, I got an email from this dear person, and she said, "Thank you so much for reading my review. My name is Daveida. I am a woman." We're like, "Oh." And you know what I did? I said, "Well, KC can't see so well. He's getting old." No. And those little usernames are hard to read --

KC Wright: Yeah, they are.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because they're teeny-weeny and smushed together. But anyway, I wrote her back and I said, "Daveida, thank you. I'm so glad to know actually who you are," so going to give out another big shoutout to her.

But anyway, I hope what you see from this is that we love you. We appreciate hearing from you because, y'all, we're just sweating in the closet here. Okay? And so when we get to hear your voice on one of the platforms with a review -- which please leave one and/or email -- that just blesses us. And thank you. We know you're out there.

All right. So thank you, Katie Reid. And now we're going to introduce the other Katie Reid, because this was a great conversation.

KC Wright: Katie Reid is a Bible teacher, author, and podcaster herself. Trained in education, Katie teaches around her kitchen table, in the classroom, and around the country. She co-hosts the Martha + Mary Show and runs the Martha + Mary Show Sisterhood Group on Facebook. Katie is a pastor's wife, a worship leader. Following Jesus, marrying her husband, and being a mom to five are the best decisions she's made.

All right, here is Katie and J.R.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Katie, I'm glad you're back on the podcast, because we're going to talk about your latest book, which is called "God, What Do I Do?" Boy, that is a question I have asked. And it's about making wise decisions, and you based it on the Old Testament Book of Judges. Okay. So I want to know a couple of things. First of all, why Judges? Because to some people, that's like, is that in the Bible? You know, it's an obscure book for some people. And then tell us what the connection between making good decisions and the Book of Judges is.

Katie Reid: Well, Jennifer, thanks so much for having me on again. It's always a treat to sit down and talk with you.

Yeah, Judges is not that book that people are like, "I can't wait to dive in." But in 2018, I was blessed to go on a trip to Israel. And as we were there, our guide kept bringing Deborah up from the Book of Judges. And I really didn't know a ton about her; there's not a lot written about her. But he was pointing out some historical markers and places that she would have been, and it really piqued my interest.

In fact, back then I was getting ready to launch "Made Like Martha" and wasn't really thinking about my next book yet, but I felt clearly that the Lord was directing me to lean in and look at Deborah and what can we learn from her for right now and for today.

And so as I started diving in, you know, at first it was going to be a trade book, but then I started looking verse by verse at Judges 1 through 5 and this theme of decision making came up. And honestly, Jennifer, there's a lot about what not to do. But I know in my own life, sometimes when I've really blown it, that is actually when I learn the most.

And so even though we see numerous examples of God's people, you know, they're supposed to be possessing the land and entering into what he's promised them, and they often fall short. But we do too. And so I'm thankful for that example and how Jesus is right there ready to extend mercy to us even when we don't deserve it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that is so good. And I happen to love just -- I'm an Old Testament girl, so I love these books. And so I'm curious, as you began studying the Book of Judges, even though you focused a lot on Deborah, did you notice any of the early judges and what they might have had in common with each other?

Katie Reid: Yeah. I see in these first few judges in this book, they were willing and available. Deborah, we see, was a prophetess and judge. But then we see Shamgar, and he is just going about his business from what I can tell -- he's a farmer -- and he takes on the enemy with just what he had in his hand. And so even though each of their lives looked different, I saw this commonality of willingness to do what God had asked them to do, and surely a reliance on him to do it.

And so I think that's inspiring for us today too. Are we willing to do the things God has asked us to do? Because I surely don't want to get to the end of my life and say, "Yeah, I just didn't really feel like that, God," when he had a kingdom assignment for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Man, isn't that the truth?

Well, and I love that you have focused so much on Deborah. And I want to go to her in a few minutes. But I also love that even just what you brought out about -- Shamgar, is that how you say his name?

Katie Reid: Shamgar, I think.

Jennifer Rothschild: Shamgar. Okay. The willingness and the availability of all of them. Because lots of us are just doing our ordinary thing, and we want to be willing and we want to be available, just as you said.

And so sometimes that includes being willing and available. It means we've got to make choices, right? So in your book, one of the things you do is you talk about six decisions that we can make even when we just don't know exactly what to do. So I would love to know -- because that's empowering. So I'd love to know an overview of what some of those or maybe even all six of those decisions are.

Katie Reid: Yeah, absolutely. We have just recently launched two of our kids into adulthood. And so whether you're just getting ready to enter into adulthood, or maybe you're an empty nester or you are faced with a big change in your life, I think we can get paralyzed with all the options and what do we do about this and what do we do about that? And so I want to look at what are some of the decisions we can make every time, even when we don't know specifically what to do about a given situation.

And so those six decisions, just to fly over, are the decision to remember, the decision to obey, the decision to be responsible, the decision to endure, the decision to rise, and the decision to testify. And we see this beautiful picture in Judges 1 through 5 of how we can lean in and make these decisions.

And that first one is remembering. The older I get, the harder that is, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Katie Reid: And so I have to, you know, write notes or put reminders on my phone. But we see throughout Scripture that God reminds his people of who he is and what he's done.

When my husband and I were entering into ministry, a mentor of ours said, "Okay, you guys, I know you're very excited, but storms are going to come. And what is going to be your anchor verse to hold on to so that you don't bail?" And for us, it was Psalm 78:4-8. And verse 4 says, "We will not keep silent. We will tell the next generation the praise for the deeds of the Lord, his might, and the wonders he has done." And God commands that throughout Scripture, "Remember what I have done and who I am."

And in Judges 2, we read about a generation arose that did not know the Lord. And, Jennifer, that has just been heavy on my mind. As a mom to five kids ranging in age from 9 to 21, it's like, how did that happen that a generation arose that did not know the Lord? And so as we decide to remember and tell those around us what God has done for us, it not only fortifies our faith, but it spreads the faith -- right? -- and gives other people an opportunity to taste and see that the Lord is good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is good. Now, obviously, 4:13ers, you need to read the book to go deep into all of these, because we're not going to be able to go deep into all six. But these are just so good, I want us to hit another couple.

Okay. So the decision to obey, on the surface that feels like a no-brainer, though it's always easier to talk about than to do. But I want to know, Katie, what it means to choose to rise. What does that mean?

Katie Reid: Well, there's a great verse in Judges 5, which is really a testimony song giving God the praise for delivering his people from their enemies in battle. And it talks about -- Deborah says, "I, Deborah, a mother of Israel, arose." You know, "March on, O my soul, in strength." And so I see this picture with Deborah, who is a prophetess and judge, and Barak, who was a military commander, that they both rose to their God-given position, but God used Deborah to exhort Barak and remind him of what God had commanded him, to go into battle. We see this in Judges 4.

And Deborah rose in this beautiful way. I believe she had this Godly confidence, right? She feared him, she knew his voice, but she didn't steamroll those around her, nor did she shrink back. And I think that's a beautiful picture for us of what it means to rise to that position and place of influence that God has given to us, but to do it in such a way that we're not just bulldozing those around us, but we're also not cowering and not stepping into that role.

I recently had a disagreement with one of my children. And this child has a very strong-willed personality, just like her father and I do. And it was that moment that sometimes God will whisper to me, "This is your Esther moment. Step into that authority as a mom," you know. And so I kind of -- it sounds silly, but I kind of stood up to my kid with truth, and hopefully love as well. And, of course, they didn't like it, but later on I saw them behaving differently. And I thought, you know what? So many times I have shrunk back from that role because I want to be liked, you know, whether that's at home, at work, you know, in ministry.

But I see this in Deborah, that she rose to the occasion. She faithfully carried out the sacred assignment God had given to her. And it inspired, I believe, Barak, gave him courage to do the same. Because sometimes we need to borrow courage from those next to us. Maybe the task before us just feels too scary or too overwhelming. And so I love this collaboration with Deborah and Barak, that they really doubled their strength, instead of divided it, as they agreed to go into battle together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I was going to ask you about that, because I read that in the book, that their strength was doubled.

Okay, so let's go -- because we've mentioned Deborah here -- and this is all so good. And by the way, let me say one more thing about Deborah. When you quoted that Scripture of how she rose, I love that you pulled that from that. And she also said, "March on, O my soul." I mean, she was doing some righteous self-talk right there too.

Katie Reid: Yes. And don't we need to do that to remind ourselves of what is true, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes. I love that. Because, yeah, sometimes if you're going to rise, you got to be telling yourself the truth. And I love that God used Deborah, a woman, a mother of Israel.

Okay. But some are listening and going, "I don't know who Deborah is." So you've mentioned she was a prophetess, you mentioned she was a judge. Can you give us a little bit of her biography, and then who Barak was that you've mentioned, and how they collaborated.

Katie Reid: Yeah. So we read about different judges in the Book of Judges, and Deborah was one. She was a woman, which was very unusual, especially at this time. But says she was a prophetess and a judge. So she was -- it says she sat under the palm tree, which I love, because I think it's kind of figuratively speaking of sitting under God's palm. You know, she again had this place of authority, yet I believe she was submitted to his ultimate authority in her life.

And it said she would settle disputes. So God's people would come to her and she would help discern what they were to do based on what was true and what God had instructed. And I love this picture for those that are listening that are moms. Don't we often feel that way? We are sitting there and we are settling disputes among the children.

Yeah, and so then it says that she went and summoned Barak and reminded him. And he was a military leader at that time. And the thing was that they were oppressed by Jabin. And Sisera was Jabin's commander. And so God had commanded Barak and his 10,000 troops to go into battle against Sisera. And they were oppressing God's people, and this would have been a very intimidating situation. However, God not only says, you know, "Go into battle," he tells them what the result will be.

And I don't know about you, Jennifer, but not often does God tell me what the outcome is going to be of a certain situation. But yet there was still fear even though he knew the outcome. And so Deborah is reminding him what God commanded. And then he says basically, "I'll go if you go," and so Deborah agrees to go with him into battle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So what I love about this too, Katie, is I'm thinking, you know, just -- so many of our listeners are female, are women, and sometimes women, especially in the Christian culture, can get all very confused about what their roles are, you know, what they should say, what they shouldn't say, to whom they should say it. You know, it all varies between denominations, et cetera.

But what I love is this biblical illustration of how God used a woman, not necessarily -- in another role of authority, not necessarily an authority over Barak, but with equal authority of Barak, and he submitted and listened to her. And even the, you know, "I'm not going to go if you're not going to go," I mean, it just -- I want you to kind of unpack that a little bit. How can we apply this scenario with being godly women who want to honor each other in the body of Christ properly?

Katie Reid: Yeah. I think it goes back to Deborah wasn't a one-woman show and Barak wasn't a one-man show, that they -- there was, like, this -- you know, we read in the New Testament about being co-heirs with Christ. And I think sometimes we can get a little mixed up, right? Yes, we want to stay true to the Word, and, yes, there's different interpretations, but I believe we each have spiritual gifts that God wants to use.

And I remember a couple from our church telling us one time they had gone on a trip. And this trip was really a faith journey. They just felt called to go down to where there had been some devastation with a tornado. They didn't really know exactly where they were going. But she said, "We yielded to one another's spiritual gifts." And she had a gift of discernment and he had a gift more like helps and generosity. And so they teamed together and were able to be stronger together instead of, you know, just saying, "Well, I'm the only one who can make decisions," or, "I'm going to do this." And I think we are wise when we listen to the wisdom of those around us.

And people have different lenses by which they see the world, and different experiences with the Lord. And I think it's evident that Deborah was respecting Barak's position as this military commander. She wasn't trying to go do that herself. But she was reminding him, and then he was able to rise up to that position that he had been entrusted to the Lord. And I like to kind of think about it like this: that she called him up versus called him out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, good word.

Katie Reid: And I think that is something we all need to think about. Are we calling people out or calling them up? Because I think there's a different nuance there. One's kind of like, "I gotcha," like, in a bad way, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Katie Reid: The other's like, "I've got you," in a supportive way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Katie Reid: And so I think so many times in the church we can just kind of devour our own and be critical and judgy and all the things. But really we're on the same team, as my friend Cindy Bultema says, you know. When we can work together, we can accomplish so much more than we can in isolation.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good word. It really all gets back to the heart and to rising according to our calling, how God has called us. That's really good, Katie. I appreciate that. And so we do need to have mutual submission to one another, honoring the authority of God in each of us. I just thank you for that.

So one of the things I wanted to also address is -- okay, you talk about iron chariots. And I know that was a big deal with Sisera's army. Okay. So when you talk about iron chariots, you talk about how they can trip us up, take us down. So I want you to explain to us what these iron chariots are and what you mean by that.

Katie Reid: Yeah. So in Judges 1, we see that Judah and Simeon, two of the tribes of Israel, are going in to possess the land God has promised them. And we also see this with Sisera. He also has iron chariots. But with Judah and Simeon, they're going in, they are battling, they're doing what the Lord asked them to do, and then they see those iron chariots and they stop obeying. They don't fully obey, they only partially obey.

And so I got to thinking about this. It's like what are those iron chariots in our life that we focus on? We get our eyes, you know, no longer fixed on the Lord instead of -- we're fixating on these iron chariots that are an enemy to our intimacy with the Lord. And they can be any obstacle that is keeping us from obeying the Lord. And remember, God had promised Barak the victory. He had also told Judah he was going to have the victory. And so God's promises are "Yes" and "Amen."

But this phrase that God has been bringing to mind to me is, Katie, are you going to believe what you see or are you going to believe what I said? Because sometimes what we see in front of us, our reality is -- appears contradictory to God's promises. But I believe the older I get, the unseen, the spiritual realm, is way more real than the visible. And so I think it's important to identify those iron chariots in our life in our current season right now.

For us, Jennifer, I told you right before we got on that our family is relocating from Michigan to Florida. And the area that God is calling us to is quite affluent, and we are not that fancy of people. And so I remember looking at how much rent costs down in this area, and I was like, "Lord, I know you have called us here, but this does not make sense on paper. I just don't know." And it was causing a lot of anxiety the more I looked at rentals and houses and all this.

So in God's kindness -- Jennifer, I'm sure this has happened to you with your books as well -- God will baptize you in your message and remind you of things you have written. And he said, "Oh, Katie, are finances your iron chariot? Are you going to stop short of obeying what I've clearly instructed because there's some iron chariots coming your way?" And so I had to humble myself and say, "Okay, Lord, you can do anything. Nothing is impossible with you. You can make a way where there seems to be no way." Just like he parted the Red Sea, just like he provided manna and quail, surely he can come up with a little paper, as my 17-year-old has reminded me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love that story because we can all relate. We've all been in situations like that where we can relate. And what I heard you say is your choice to obey -- I mean, that's one of the six choices. You said that's one we can always make. Your choice to obey was still solid, and you had chosen to remember that God has always provided. I mean, so it's just a beautiful picture.

All right. So let me get us, though, to our last question. I know I've got some listeners right now like me who are anxious to open the book. I'm so glad you wrote it as a Bible study, by the way, Katie, I really am, because then we get to just go deeper. Okay, but this will be our last question. There's someone listening, and they're tracking with you, and they are smack dab in the middle, kind of like you were with the Florida thing, with a big decision to make. And the stakes feel super high and there's iron chariots that are pulling their attention. But, you know, bottom line is it just feels kind of fuzzy and uncertain. And so I want you just to kind of be their friend and coach them and tell them, what can they do when this podcast ends to have a sense of peace in making this decision?

Katie Reid: Well, I think a lot of times when we're faced with uncertainty, it can either drive us to God or away from him. And so, listener, if you find yourself in the middle of a dark valley, I just want to encourage you to call out to God. We call these SOS prayers. "God, what do I do?" "God, I need you." Because one of my favorite names of God is Emmanuel, God with us. Right? We see this embodied in Jesus. And so even when you might not know what to do next, you have a God who is present with you in it. And it doesn't necessarily answer all your questions at the moment. But I remember a song we used to sing when I was young, Jesus is the answer for the world today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Katie Reid: Above him there's no other.

Jennifer and Katie: Jesus is the way.

Katie Reid: Yes. And so grab on to him. Open his Word. Look at Judges 1 through 5 and ask him to help you navigate this valley or these iron chariots that you are facing. Because obeying him -- there is blessing when you obey him. That is never the wrong choice. And so ask him, "God, what do I need to do to obey you?" And, Jennifer, sometimes what that is -- sometimes he's already told us and we just need to remember and go do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, choir, tune it up. You need to sing some Andrae' Crouch right now. (Singing) Jesus is the answer. Jesus is the way. Remember that? Sing it. He is the way. When you don't know the way, there is always blessing when you obey. So as Katie said, ask God, "What do I need to do to obey you?"

KC Wright: Good stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: I mean, really good stuff. You need her book. I need her book. All God's children need the book. And we are giving one away at Jennifer's Instagram -- talk about encouraging right there -- @jennrothschild on Instagram. Or you can go to the Show Notes now at 413podcast.com/373 to get connected with the giveaway.

And at the Show Notes you can read the full transcript just for you because she gave lots of verses you may want to review. We'll also link you to Katie's podcast at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/373.

Jennifer Rothschild: So much good stuff.

All right, our people, let's choose to remember and to rise. Let's choose to make wise decisions. We can because -- you know the drill -- we can do all things through Christ who gives us strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can.

KC Wright: And God says if you want wisdom, you just ask.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: He gives it liberally, like it rains down from heaven and floods your soul.

KC Wright: We receive it now in Jesus' name.

Jennifer Rothschild: Bring it on.