4:13 Podcast: Can I Understand Scripture Without a Seminary Degree? With Mikella Van Dyke [Episode 348]

Mikella Van Dyke: All these questions, they help us to really understand the original intent of the passage we're studying. So some other questions are when did this happen? Where did it take place? Why was this written? How will it happen? So we're asking all these questions to try to discover the original intent of what God is saying in the pages of Scripture.

And then the last step of inductive Bible study is, okay, now that I've understood and asked all these questions and gathered information on the context, well, now I can more so correctly apply it to my life and have these transcendent truths that are going to just lead me as I live my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Calling all Bible study geeks. Actually, this episode is for anyone who is curious about the Bible. So today on The 4:13, Bible teacher Mikella Van Dyke is going to break down the misconceptions and reservations that so many of us have when it comes to studying the Bible. She'll be using her story along with the inductive Bible study method, and she will teach us a systematic way to study Scripture.

Oh, my friend, you don't need a seminary degree to understand Scripture. All you need is an open heart. So open your heart and here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our people. Welcome back to the 4:13 family. We're so glad you're here. KC Wright over there, my Seeing Eye Guy, and we are nestled under the stairs here in the podcast closet. Two friends, one topic, and zero stress.

I hope you've had a good week. We've had a good week around here. It's getting springtime, and I love that. And I only have a few more weeks left to wear my new long sleeve T-shirt. KC, you see what it says on it?

KC Wright: Yeah. What's it say?

Jennifer Rothschild: It says "Palm Beach Atlantic --

Jennifer and KC: Sailfish.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. You know why I'm wearing this?

KC Wright: Explain.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's where I went to college, Palm Beach Atlantic University in West Palm Beach, Florida.

By the way, you mamas, you grandmas, you dads, listen, this is a great university for you to send your students to. Christ-centered, educationally very rigorous, beautiful campus in West Palm Beach, Florida.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And they've got 4,000 students now.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: It is really a wonderful experience. But I'm wearing the T-shirt because we were there. I guess it was the end of February, KC. They had, like, a founder's weekend and parents' weekend.

Anyway, Phil and I were honored to receive alumni awards.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: That's a big deal.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're distinguished. You get old enough, and soon it'll be extinguished alumni award.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: But anyway...

I got to tell you something, though, that happened. Okay. So the university was very kind in the way they honored us, and we got to speak at chapel. It was really special. Everything was special. But two things I'll tell you about. Okay. So one, when Phil was a -- he worked at the university when he graduated. He was the Director of Student Life, Director of Student Activities. And so the school did not yet have -- they had the sailfish as the mascot, but they didn't have any, like, costumed fun thing, right?

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So he with another student named Paul, the student worker, they sketched out this mascot that they named Sailfish Jack. And he's like this big old giant sailfish with attitude. You know what I mean? He's cool. Okay. And so we even -- we were newly married. We even went to Atlanta, because you can't just find anybody to make these giant costumes.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So we went to this costume designer who lived in Atlanta. She designed -- you know, she helped create. So that was how Sailfish Jack was born.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: So we are in the bookstore late February when we're at this event, and they have these little stuffy Sailfish Jacks.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Phil handed it to me. I was like, "Oh, honey," like, "you are Jack Daddy." So I've been calling him Jack Daddy ever since.

KC Wright: He loves that.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I got Jack Daddy. Oh, my goodness. But, yeah, Sailfish Jack is very cool. Okay, that was just a fun thing.

But here was the sweetest thing. So we're in chapel, we are speaking to the students, and it's a really sweet thing. They kind of did this little interview. Well, then the Director of Development -- her name is Laura -- she says, "By the way, we have" -- or, I'm sorry, V.P. of Development -- "We have a special surprise for you, Phil." And then this video runs. And this video was a woman named Sara. Her married name now is Chauncey. And so Sara is talking about when she was a student, and that she was, you know, like three or four years younger than Phil, and how one day -- she was not a believer in Christ yet, and she was standing near this building we affectionately -- you know how you do on college campuses, you rename things. So we called it the Orange Building.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so she was standing near the Orange Building, and having a bad day, Phil got into conversation with her and basically shared the Gospel with her.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: During that conversation she did not come to Christ, but shortly thereafter she did.

KC Wright: Praise God.

Jennifer Rothschild: And she talked about how it was because of his influence in that conversation.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so he didn't know all this, so it was such a sweet revelation. Then not only did that video show, but that woman, Sara, was there.

KC Wright: Yes. Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then they presented him, Phil, with a brick. Okay. So they had taken down that Orange Building. It had been torn down. But someone knew about this story, and so -- it was Laura Bishop, and so she saved the brick.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so she had it put together in a frame with a beautiful plaque representing how a life was changed.

KC Wright: That is beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm telling you --

KC Wright: Beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- y'all, in this life could there ever be a better reward than to know that because of your faithfulness --

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- someone is in eternity. And she's a pastor's wife. Multiplied the message. She has reached so many for Christ. And so we have that orange brick now as a reminder. Isn't that the sweetest?

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: That's what life's all about.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is what life's all about.

So I am wearing my Palm Beach Atlantic Sailfish shirt proudly.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what they say on campus? Fear the fish. Yes.

KC Wright: Fear the fish.

Jennifer Rothschild: Fear the fish.

Okay. Anyway, really I don't think that has anything to do with what we're talking about today, except I guess I could make a sorry little connection with this, you know. I mean, obviously, when we were at Palm Beach Atlantic, it was a place of learning and -- but the beautiful thing is -- what we're about to talk about today is you don't have to have a college degree. You don't have to have a seminary degree. All you need is the Holy Spirit.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: So Mikella's going to talk to us about that. So introduce her, KC.

KC Wright: Mikella Van Dyke is the founder of Chasing Sacred, a ministry that provides resources to help women study the Bible. She has a master's in practical theology from Regent University. She and her husband, Jamie, live in New Hampshire with their five kids. Did I say five kids?

Jennifer Rothschild: Five.

KC Wright: I said five kids. How does this woman have time for anything? Well, here she is.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Mikella. I think the way you pronounce your name is beautiful, by the way. So I'm telling our listeners, get it right, sisters and brothers out there, Mikella, Mikella, Mikella, because it's beautiful.

So we're going to talk, Mikella, about studying the Bible. But before we do, I read that your parents are Bible translators. And I think that's so fascinating. So I don't know if they're in a country where you could share where they work or -- just give us a picture of what that's like to have Bible translators as parents.

Mikella Van Dyke: Yes, it is actually wild. So I actually grew up in Southeast Asia. I grew up in Thailand. They translate the Bible for a minority group in Southeast Asia that is actually under a lot of persecution, so I do not actually talk about the name of the people group.

But it was such a wild experience growing up with parents as Bible translators. I just remember the richness of going off to school and seeing my mom and dad open the pages of Scripture, because they were in it all day long. And so they often talked about how much they loved their job and how it was so amazing to be able to be reading the Bible all day, and just how much they loved their minority group that they were translating the Bible with.

They talk often about how they're not the only people translating the Bible, they do it with national translators, and so I got kind of an inside scoop into the process of Bible translation growing up. And so as I got older, I realized how much people don't understand about Bible translation, and so in my book I actually write an entire chapter on it. Which my publishing house was like, "I think we need to move that to the appendix," and I was like, "No. This is important."

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. So that was one of the reasons I was really excited about talking to you, because I agree, it is so important. And there is ignorance sometimes. And I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean we just don't know. Believers don't know. We pick up a Bible and assume, okay, well, this is it. And there's so much nuance in translation, in the way we study. So let's just go at this, Mikella, with a very -- like, as if we know nothing at all. All right? Because it is familiar to you, and all these concepts of translation and study are familiar to you, even though it's -- because it's not for everyone, let's start with some very basic definitions.

For instance, tell us what inductive Bible study is. Because a lot of times we just open the Bible, and whatever verse we land on, we're like, oh, thank you, Holy Spirit, and we start. Okay. So what is inductive bible study?

Mikella Van Dyke: Yes. So inductive Bible study is actually a method of Bible interpretation, so interpreting the Scriptures. Now, I always like to preface this to my audience. It's not the only method, and it's not saying that this is the right one for everyone, but I have found that inductive Bible study has really helped me to study the Scriptures in a way that brings the Scriptures to life.

I learned about it in Bible college, and so I kind of was -- you know, as a daughter of missionaries and being with parents that were Bible translators, I went off to get my theology degree, and I just remember I had all this pride. I was like, you know what? I know how to study the Bible. You know, don't worry about me, I know everything there is about this. And I just remember being blown away when I went to my first class that taught me how to do inductive Bible study.

So the inductive method actually looks at the text, the biblical text, and then draws conclusions from what is already there. So it uses inductive reasoning, and that's through a three-step process, which is actually observation, what do I see or what does this say; interpretation, what does this mean; and then application, how does this apply to me or what does this tell me about God's character?

Because I think what happens is often -- I did this -- pretty much my entire upbringing was -- I would approach the biblical text and I'd be like, okay, what is this saying to me right now? You know, where I am, in this culture, in the 21st century, like, what is the Bible saying to me? And I didn't consider the context. I didn't consider the historical context, the cultural context, the literary context.

So then I go off to Bible college -- you know, I am an adult at this time -- and I am like, oh, my goodness, how I wish I had known.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I love that, because I think -- you know, we all have the tendency to look at it like, what does it say to me right now in this culture? So tell us, then -- and by the way, we will have -- those three ways of doing inductive Bible study, we will have that on the transcripts, our people. So if you realize, oh, my gosh, I wish I had written that down, you can look at the Show Notes.

But let's stick with that. Because you mentioned something, Mikella, that studying -- observing what are the places. Like, what are -- what's the context here? So tell us, why is it important that we note the background, the places, the people? Why is that important for studying Scripture?

Mikella Van Dyke: Yeah. So what I like to say to answer that question is that it's important because it really helps us to discern and see what God is actually saying. And then the last step of inductive Bible study is actually to apply it to ourselves, so once we gather what I call is background information.

So inductive Bible study is asking questions of the text. And so I do a lot of this in my book as I give you all the questions to ask. But gathering background information, like you just talked about, would be asking, who was the author? Who was the audience in this book of the Bible? Who are the key characters? What is the author saying? And all these questions, they help us to really understand the original intent of the passage we're studying.

So some other questions are when did this happen? Where did it take place? Why was this written? How will it happen? So we're asking all these questions to try to discover the original intent of what God is saying in the pages of Scripture.

And then the last step of inductive Bible study is, okay, now that I've understood and asked all these questions and gathered information on the context, well, now I can more so correctly apply it to my life and have these transcendent truths that are going to just lead me as I live my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so when we're doing that, when we're studying, trying to understand background, people, places, et cetera, how would someone -- if they're new to the Bible, how do they figure that out? Do they look in other places in the Bible to understand that? How do they find that information?

Mikella Van Dyke: Well, I love that you said that, because there is a hermeneutical principle that I like to say often, which is Scripture interprets Scripture. And so, yes, for sure you can look at other places in Scripture. But I also -- especially if you're new to studying the Bible -- and also I do this as well -- but I like to check my observations with trusted commentaries. I use Logos Bible software to look through different commentaries and to see what other scholars, other people that are a lot smarter than I am, have to say about the text. And so there are so many things.

Like, if you get a study Bible -- I always say start with a study Bible. And when you open and you're like, you know what? I need a place to start in Scripture. Maybe you decide, okay, I'm going to pick a gospel or I'm going to pick an epistle, you end up picking a place in Scripture. Read through the entire book that you're studying, if you can, to just gain that context, that overarching view, and then start by reading front to back slowly, chronologically of that book of the Bible, and then start by asking these questions. So what I do first is gather that background information so I can really understand, okay, what am I looking at? What am I getting into? Where -- you know, when did this happen? Who wrote this?

And it really helps us -- like, for example, with maybe an epistle and a letter, you're going to be able to contextualize like, okay, so the author is writing to this audience. Well, there's probably a specific problem or this might be an occasional document, which means there's something -- a specific issue that this author is addressing with their audience, then it really helps you to root yourself in the pages of Scripture and in the pages of what you're studying.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's so good. And I appreciate you mentioned Logos Bible software, which is really great. And I know also for some people that may not be as affordable, and there's lots of free resources out there. We'll have links to them, also for you to be able to find some of what I call my favorite dead authors, Mikella.

Mikella Van Dyke: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: There are some great commentators who you can even access for free. So, yes, this is so accessible, our people. But the best part of this is there is one thing we have accessible as we're studying Scripture, and you talk about it in your book. So let's go there. What is the importance of prayer when we're studying the Bible?

Mikella Van Dyke: I love that question. So I always say start your Bible reading with prayer, because what you want to do is root yourself in the fact that God is the one that interprets Scripture for us, right? The Holy Spirit helps us as we're reading the Scriptures. And so we pray as a means to talk to God, and just like we read the Bible, as he talks to us. So it's a two-way communication there. And so communicating with God through prayer is so important when it comes to reading the Bible.

But I kind of give this example. So growing up in Thailand, we had a king, we had a queen, we had a princess, the royal family. And I talk about how basically I remember doing this dance performance, and during the dance performance -- the princess decided to come watch my dance performance. And there's all these things in Thailand, rules about approaching royalty. And so after the dance performance -- she had watched it -- we all came in. And we all had to come in on our knees, and we couldn't look at her. And it was this, like, thing where it was like, okay, we're honoring her royalty.

But I just thought -- you know, when I thought back to this memory, like, I am so glad that God makes himself so accessible through the pages of Scripture to us, and then through prayer as we pray to him. And it's not like every single day we serve this accessible God where we're not having to go through the Old Testament sacrificial system; instead, we have the Holy Spirit within us. And so that was really cool for me to kind of talk about in the book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I love that picture. Because God Most High is worthy of that kind of reverence, yet he humbled himself through Christ and now we can approach him. And so to think that we are asking the author of the Book to help us understand what he means is pretty substantial when it comes to studying. So I love that you pull that out.

Because here's the thing too, Mikella. I don't know about you, but I enjoy studying Scripture. And without the guardrails and guidance of prayer, I can just get kind of like buzzed up about just, oh, this is so fun. I'm learning this and I'm learning that. And the point of Scripture is not just for our learning, but it's for our living and being able to translate that life into the way we live and the way we minister to others.

So, yeah, we cannot -- we just can't approach Scripture outside of prayer or I think we're missing a big, huge element. So I'm really grateful you talk about that so much in the book. I love that illustration, by the way, of the princess and the dancing. Wow.

Mikella Van Dyke: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really cool.

Okay. So another thing that I think is a big deal for people, where there's a lot of confusion, is Bible translations. Okay, we got the NIV, we got the NASB, we got the NLT. We got the alphabet soup of Bible translations. And so sometimes people are like, well, I don't know which one is best. Is one better than the other? Why are they different? So let's go there. All right? So why is it that we have so many translations, and then what tips do you have? Like, if someone is trying to figure out which one should I read or which one should I use to study, like, what tips could you give us to figure that out?

Mikella Van Dyke: I love this question. So I actually get asked this question a lot, and I think because there's so much confusion, as you highlighted. So one of the things I like to say, first and foremost, is that all of our English translations are so well done, with such great scholarship, right? I talk about a few of them sometimes that maybe aren't. But most of them -- right? -- are just great scholarship. Teams of translators worked on them. You should trust -- you should trust your English Bible.

And so what I get a little bit frustrated with is if we get hung up on a specific translation. The truth is, I say we should compare translations, because comparing translations give us a lot of insight into the words and phrases that the author used to convey what they were saying. When we compare translations, we get to see different words that the translators picked, which show us that some words can have varying meanings.

Because when you look at Bible translation, each Bible translator, group of Bible translators, have translation philosophies. And so what that means is that you have some that are more word-for-word, you have some that are more thought-for-thought, you have some that try to stay in the middle, and when you compare translations, you're getting a variety of different interpretations of what that means.

So I think it's really interesting, I like to always say to everyone, like, trust the scholarship of your translation. Understand that every translator is working with that Greek and Hebrew text -- right? -- and then they're moving it into the receptor language, which is whatever translation they're translating into -- so for us, English -- and they're doing so with so many resources, with usually a national translator, and so they're doing so.

So trust your Bibles and also compare translations, some from word-for-word, some from thought-for-thought, maybe grab some that are more middle of the road, and then look at all of those together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good. Okay. Tell us, is there a difference between a translation and a paraphrase of Scripture?

Mikella Van Dyke: Yes. Yes, that's a great question. And so when you're studying the Scriptures, a paraphrase is going to be moving a little bit farther off of the thought-for-thought. So I would say consider a paraphrase translation more so when you're trying to get more to the poetry and the emotion behind the text, maybe not so when you're studying and trying to do a word study or something like that.

So there is a difference. I would say paraphrase I wouldn't more so make as my -- I mean, I would. In certain seasons when I'm really struggling, picking up a paraphrase can be really beautiful so I can kind of get those ideas into my heart and really meditate on the Scriptures. But when I am studying, I'm going to more so pick one of the ones on the spectrum of thought-for-thought versus word-for-word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I love that you pointed that out. I agree with you. And there is a place for paraphrase. Like, many of us love The Message by Eugene Peterson. That is truly a paraphrase --

Mikella Van Dyke: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and there's a specific intention behind that. That is not lackadaisical scholarship either, by the way. The man was very scholarly in his intention behind how he did that. But, yeah, it's more devotional. It's kind of just something you -- it's like listening to music in some ways. And so, yes, comparing all of them all the time is going to be our best way to do this. But I appreciate you pointing all that out. That's super helpful.

Okay, so we've gone from the head and the theory, so now we got to put feet on the ground, Mikella. Because in my introduction -- or in KC's introduction of you -- okay, we mentioned you have five children. So every busy person wants to know, how in heaven's name are you able to study the Bible while you're raising five humans?

Mikella Van Dyke: Yeah. I love that question. So it makes me laugh, because it is not always easy.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Mikella Van Dyke: I'm just going to put that out there. It's not quiet. And in a lot of seasons, I have had a baby on my lap while I'm reading the Bible. And so I think I just want to put it out there that, like, it is for every season. The Bible is for every season. And you can do it audibly, you can mark up your Bible, you can not mark up your Bible and just try to read it while you're doing dishes at the kitchen sink. I have had to fit the Scriptures into my life in every season in different ways. I think it's more so about that hunger for the Scriptures, and so always trying to put it in somewhere in my life.

I think also slowing down. I know that -- I think that in every season -- like, there's times we want to read front to back of the Bible and get the overarching meta-narrative. There's other times that we want to slow down and use the inductive Bible study method and zoom into the text and really just study one passage of Scripture. Do not let that deter you. Studying one paragraph or one sentence is still being in the Word of God. And so I do that sometimes.

In some seasons, I wake up and I'm like, you know what? I am literally going to just repeat this one sentence over and over again to myself today, and that is the only thing that's realistic for that day. And so just knowing that every season is different and that there's grace when it comes to Bible studies, so much grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know -- thank you for saying that. Because I think a lot of us who have really good intentions, and we love the Lord, we think if it's not done a certain way for a certain time frame, for a certain duration like she does it, then it's not good enough. And what does that lack of Bible study bring us? Is shame. Or what if we pull it off? Then it brings pride. It's all about grace.

And I love that you said one verse, because I have an empty nest and there days when my life is so crammed full, I do one verse also. Like, my YouVersion, you know, gives me a verse of the day, and I literally will leave it there on my phone and I'll listen to it all day. Meditate on it, pray it. It's Bible study. It's just being in the Word. It's the relationship. So I love that no matter -- like you said, whatever season we're in, the Bible is for all of us. Mmm, girl.

Okay. We're going to hit our last question, though. And we're going to do something fun. I hope you think it's fun. All right.

So this podcast is based on Philippians 4:13, because we are really striving in all that we do to show that it is through Christ that we can be who he's called us to be, we can do what he's called us to do. Okay. But you always risk, when you pull a verse like that out -- it's like what I call a Hobby Lobby verse. We put it on our coffee mugs, we hang it on our walls. So when we use Philippians 4:13 as a title of a podcast, we can risk it being misunderstood or taken out of context. So I want you to kind of show us, how should we approach a verse like Philippians 4:13, like, when we're studying the Bible -- like, let's just do a brief coaching, Mikella, of how you would approach studying Philippians 4:13.

Mikella Van Dyke: I love that. Because -- I talk about this in my book. I talk about this and I say never -- there's this verse I love by Greg Koukl, and it's, "Never read a Bible verse." And it makes me laugh. Because right now we're talking about Bible study, right? And so, of course, I'm not saying never read a Bible verse. But what he is saying is always read the context of a Bible verse.

So we would go to that -- you know, we would go to Philippians and we would do an overarching readthrough. So we would read through the Book of Philippians -- and I actually talk about it in my book. Like, read it, if you can, like, two times to yourself and then once out loud. When you read Scripture out loud, it sets in, like, you really, really learn it and understand it.

And then what I would do after I gained that overarching context, I would ask myself, okay, there's context to this. There's literary context, right? So it's in Philippians, which is a letter. So I would think about the genre of it. I would answer some questions about it. So I would say, okay, who wrote it? You know, Paul wrote it. Who was it to? The Church of Philippi, right? You would do those kind of things.

And then I would mark up some of the key characters. And then I would kind of write in, okay, what is he saying and what does the context around us tell us about what he is saying? Who is he actually writing this to? Why did he write this? What was the original intent of this passage? What was he seeking to encourage them in?

And then I would mark up my text. And so I would say, okay, are there any keywords in this text? I would mark up any of those linking words. Linking words would be like "but," "and," "then."

And so I would do all that, and then I would move -- so after I observe it, which is, what does this say? Paraphrasing is really helpful here -- I would move to interpretation. So I would say, what does this actually mean? Considering the context, considering the historical context, the cultural context, and the literary context, and the context of being in the Book of Philippians, right?

And then I would go to application. So how does this apply to me right now where I'm at? Move towards the 21st century, how does it apply to me right where I'm at in my everyday life?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's so good. Because if you don't do that, you risk taking a verse like Philippians 4:13 as your superpower, your magic sugar pill. Oh, I can do it. I can do it. I can lose 20 pounds. But when you're reading the context, you recognize Paul's talking about contentment and having a ton and having nothing. And then suddenly he says, ah, but I found the secret of being content. "I can do all things." And then the real significance is "through Christ." Yeah, and you miss that, Mikella. You miss that. So what great coaching.

Okay. So, our people, you heard all that. That's the way we approach all Scripture.

I said that was the last question you were going to give us coaching, Mikella, but I have to ask you one more. Okay. This is your really last, last question. So if there was one book of the Bible that someone was like, okay, I am so inspired, I want to start this, which Book of the Bible would you recommend they start?

Mikella Van Dyke: Ooh. It depends on -- that's such a hard question because it depends on where they're at. You know, are they new believers? Are they seasoned believers? Are they struggling? But I guess I go always back to the Psalms, and that's because the Psalms in every season give us the words that we can pray and help us to really feel that emotional connection with the Lord and really give us words to express what it's like to be human. And so I guess I would start maybe with the Psalms.

KC Wright: For all the humans out there, Psalms is always a good place to go. It gives words to your joy, sorrow, struggle. You need to do this. So apply this method of inductive study to just one psalm. In fact, we did a podcast on this a while back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we sure did.

KC Wright: I say that more and more. When people have problems and they come talk to me, I go, "We did a podcast on that." You know, in the old days you'd hand them a book. Now I just refer them to a podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

KC Wright: Anyway, you've got to go back and check out the podcast about the different Psalms. I do believe it was Episode 111. You can go there to determine which one you want to start with.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's great. 111's easy to remember. Also, my people, we're going to have a link to that podcast on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/348. And, of course, we'll link you to the transcript of this conversation so that you can review these steps of inductive Bible study and, even better, get the book. What a great resource.

KC Wright: Or you know what? You could do Philippians as Mikella showed us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: The point is, get her book and then do this thing. You need it. You need the Word, I need the Word. All us humans need the Word. And you can study Scripture, give Scripture without going to seminary, because, you know what? You have the teacher. Hallelujah. You have the Holy Spirit, the teacher living big on the inside, and you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: And, you know, Phil -- that testimony really inspires me today. What conversation can I jump into today with the gal at Walmart or the dude at Dollar General or wherever your path may go that may -- one day down the road they present you with a brick of a legacy of them becoming born again from above because of a conversation you started.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. Pressure's off. Just be faithful. Let the Holy Spirit do what he does.

4:13 Podcast: What You Need To Know About Heaven [Episode 333]

Alex Kendrick: Stephen and I quote you.

Stephen Kendrick: Yes, we do --

Alex Kendrick: Yeah, we --

Stephen Kendrick: -- quote Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

Stephen Kendrick: We got to spend time with you, and we did that Fathom event a few years ago.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Alex Kendrick: And Stephen and I have often quoted, "Jennifer Rothschild said" -- when you were talking about what you're going through in this life and what's to come, that Jennifer said, "Earth is short and heaven is long."

Stephen Kendrick: Yes.

Alex Kendrick: And so keep your eyes on what's coming. Don't put all your focus on this earthly life. Jesus said, you know, set your treasures in heaven, and that is the wiser thing to focus on. And we have -- Stephen and I have even both said the first thing Jennifer will see is what you would want to see the most.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right?

Stephen Kendrick: The face of Jesus.

Alex Kendrick: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: The face of -- nothing else.

Alex Kendrick: And so --

Jennifer Rothschild: Nothing else can compare.

Alex Kendrick: Yeah, so we have quoted you a number of times.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, okay. I just got to say --

Stephen Kendrick: We're fans. We're fans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, right back at you. Here's what I love about that too, you guys. I am just publishing a Bible study on heaven that comes out in January of '25 because of that reality: Earth is short, heaven is long. So we want to know about our forever home.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast. This whole month we're using the song you hear in background called "Ascending" by Michael O'Brien. Do you know why? Because this song is a part of our girl Jennifer's latest video-based Bible study called "Heaven: When Faith Becomes Sight." And we're celebrating around here for the whole month.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: So welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength.

Now, here's your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome back, our 4:13 family. And if you're new to us, we're so glad you're here. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And it's just two friends here in the podcast closet, with one topic and zero stress. And, yeah, we're going to talk about heaven. But it's interesting. It's not just going to be me and KC talking about heaven. You're going to get to hear from some other voices. Well, you already did. Because when we started, you heard the voices of Alex and Stephen Kendrick, you know, the Kendrick Brothers. They were in the opening. And you probably guessed, this is going to be different, very interesting, and super fun episode because we really are about to hear from lots of 4:13 friends about heaven.

So here's why. I have been collecting -- anytime somebody said something about heaven, I've been collecting the audio clips. But here's the best part, at least to me. You are going to even get to hear the voice of my dad, even though he is actually already in heaven. So I have his voice recorded, and I can't wait for you to hear it.

So while I was writing the Heaven Bible study, KC, my mom would text me on most days and she would ask, "Are you going to be in heaven today?" Well, of course, she meant in the Heaven manuscript. But I tell you that because, of course, even though I wasn't in heaven literally, heaven was in me. The hope of it, the wonder of it, the anticipation of it. And so after steeping myself in what Scripture says about heaven, I feel so much more grounded and anchored in the reality of eternity, and I'm just growing in anticipation of my faith actually becoming sight someday. I will be living fully in my glorious unending. Oh, man.

Now, I'm not really ready to leave immediately, but I will tell you this, I am looking forward to that day. And you know what? That is what a biblical understanding of heaven really has done for me. And it can do that for you too. Ground you in eternity, strengthen you in the face of uncertainty, and it can anchor you in deep spiritual serenity. And I think you're going to hear that. So every time you hear something from one of these guests, you're going to hear that kind of serenity, that kind of hope. So these different voices that you're about to hear, they speak very candidly about heaven, and what they say is going to encourage you deeply.

So, my people, since heaven is real, like, what you believe about that day can really impact this day. And it did for the first voice you're about to hear, Karen Kingsbury. You know who she is. She's an amazing author, best-selling author, and now become a filmmaker. So she was talking about sinking her family's life savings into making this movie. And here's how her view of heaven impacted that risky choice.

Karen Kingsbury: It was trusting the Lord and being able to say, okay, even if it all falls apart, then this day, did I live this day well? Did I make the most of sharing his light and love, his joy and peace with the people around me? Did I live my life for Jesus to lead others toward him today? If this is the last day I get, and when the movie never happens, if the theaters never open, is it enough that we did this and we did this path and we made an impact on the people around us? And the answer was always yes.

And it comes back to -- and even on days when you might feel afraid or when I might feel anxious about something, I really quickly turn to Jesus and I hear him saying, "It's just earth." This is just earth. We have so much ahead. And so what impact we can make here, we will do by the grace and strength of God alone. And the rest, hey, we have eternity, so we don't have to worry about it.

KC Wright: It's just earth. Such a short, profound sentence.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Don't you love that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I really did. It's just earth.

You know, I find myself often, KC, saying earth is short and heaven is long. Y'all, we need that kind of perspective. It's an eternal perspective.

KC Wright: Hey, you got to have a conversation with Lisa-Jo Baker at one of the live events and found out that you guys share the same favorite verses.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: And this clip will let you know what that is. And here's a hint. It all points to an eternal perspective.

Jennifer Rothschild: We share the same favorite verses.

Lisa-Jo Baker: Oh, we do.

Jennifer Rothschild: 2 Corinthians 4 --

Lisa-Jo Baker: Sixteen, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- through 18.

Lisa-Jo Baker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Tell me why that's your -- well, first of all, can you quote it?

Lisa-Jo Baker: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Quote it for us, because your accent will make prettier than mine, and then tell us why it's your favorite.

Lisa-Jo Baker: Sure. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed. For these light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal weight of glory that far outweighs them all.

It will seem a sad reason, but it isn't. This was my mom's verse that she loved when she was dying essentially of leukemia. And we used to joke with her because her hair was falling out from all the chemotherapy and she would wear wigs. And then we were teenagers, we were super obnoxious, and when she'd get stressed about something, we'd be like, "Mom, keep your hair on, okay?" But she laughed because she said this verse, you know, though outwardly we are wasting away -- and she literally was. We watched her waste away before our eyes -- yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day, and that is what I saw in my tiny, frail mom.

I'll never forget her sitting in her hospice bed. But when she talked to God, I had never experienced that before. She was in this little blue nightgown, and she had a pink scarf around her head, and she was wasted away to almost nothing, but she was talking to God. And when she spoke to him, she kind of hit her fist into the side of the bed like, "Lord," and she talked to him with authority. And I was an 18-year-old teenager, who didn't know much about life yet, and I felt the shivers go up my spine because I knew she was talking to somebody real, that there was actually a presence in the room responding to my tiny mother. And we watched her grow into this shining human, and her tiny body just couldn't contain that anymore.

And when she talked to God, I realized for the first time God listens. And when I stood in that hospital room -- it was the night before she died when I watched her pray like that -- I felt like I was eavesdropping on a conversation between close friends. And I knew in that moment that everything I'd read or heard in Sunday school or been forced to sit through in church, suddenly it occurred to me that was real. There was a real place and a real God who was really involved in our lives. And I learned that firsthand through watching my mother.

So that verse is actually on her tombstone. And I'll just say, it's come full circle for me. Because as a woman now in her 40s, who has three kids -- say it with me ladies -- do we get to this point in our lives where suddenly in our culture there's this stress factor about age and weight?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes --

Lisa-Jo Baker: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- yes, yes.

Lisa-Jo Baker: And it's sort of exhausting. And I just felt like it had got to a point where I didn't want the scale to be the boss of me anymore. It was frustrating that there was that voice in my mind about weight. And I went back to that verse that talks about a weight of glory, and I thought to myself, you know, we have an enemy who wants to trick us into thinking you could possibly be weighed by a scale. When you are carrying in you an eternal weight of glory, it cannot possibly be measured by a scale.

And so for me, that verse from when I was 18 to now -- I'm 44, about to turn 45 -- continues to speak into my life, Jennifer, about -- when I think now about that line an eternal weight of glory, I think, yep, that's what I'm carrying inside these jeans. Don't care what the size says on the label.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Lisa-Jo Baker: Thank you very much.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do not lose weight. Do not.

Oh, my friend, death is not the period at the end of our stories; death is just the comma that transitions us from the prologue to the forever stories of our lives. It's like death just allows you to step fully into your glorious unending, finally trading faith for sight. That's kind of -- when I heard Lisa-Jo, I just -- that perspective is just -- man, brought me such hope. Anyway...

Now this next woman, she is one of my heroes. She has been paralyzed and in a wheelchair since she was 17 years old because of a diving accident. So I want you to listen to her eternal perspective and again just how that weight of glory gives her hope for today.

KC Wright: She's one of my heroes too. This is Joni Eareckson-Tada.

Jennifer Rothschild: "On This Side of Eternity," you're talking about practicing the presence of the Lord. But one day, sister, you will be in the presence of Jesus in heaven, right in front of him. So what does that mean to you? And how can the reality of that day -- how is that going to impact this day on earth for you?

Joni Eareckson-Tada: Oh, my goodness, you've just painted a most marvelous picture. Because I imagine at that point I'll be standing up --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Joni Eareckson-Tada: -- and I can hold the hands of my Savior and I will feel the nail prints in his hand. And I will say to him -- looking in his eyes, I'll say, "Jesus, thank you. Thank you for giving me grace, grace all those years I was paralyzed. Thank you so much." And you know what? When I say that, I know Jesus will know that I mean it, because he will know that I'm the one who for 56 years came to him every day, hammering human strength, "I can't do this," and he will know that my gratitude is sincere and from the heart. And nothing could please me more than that.

And as I said earlier, I want to do everything down here on earth that I can to enlarge my eternal estate, to stretch it. And we know that if we have the perspective that our light and momentary afflictions are just that, light and momentary, and have a godly response to it, then they are accruing for us an eternal weight of glory that is far more significant than the inconvenience of blindness, of paralysis, whatever else our listeners might be struggling with. I mean, it just far outweighs it.

So I don't want to diminish it; I want to enlarge it. I want to work for that day. I cannot wait to see the Lord Jesus and tell him thank you from the heart. I won't be mouthing my thankfulness; it'll be a river of living gratitude poured out upon him for glory upon glory forevermore.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, may we all have that same heart of thankfulness.

Now, I want you to hear from my ultimate hero, my dad. Now, I just can't wait for you to meet this guy. He really is my forever hero. I always call him my Hero Dad. So Lawson Jolly, my dad, he went to heaven in 2018, yet I am so privileged, I have his voice on tape. He was reading Scripture from a sermon -- my dad was a pastor -- and he gave this sermon just a few months before he died. He's reading out of Hebrews 11 about heaven.

Pastor Lawson Jolly: Verse 13 says, "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promise; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance." They were expecting something beyond death. They didn't get it while they were alive, but they knew it was coming and it was going to be theirs. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. They were just here for a period of time passing through."

Verse 14, "People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own." Just aliens in this world. "If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country -- a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them." God has prepared a city for these heroes and for those that die in the faith. Jesus spoke of it, you know, in John 14. He said, "Don't let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; you believe also in me. In my Father's house there many, many mansions. Now, I'm going to go and prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I'm going to come again, and I'm going to receive you unto myself so that where I am, you can be also."

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen, Dad. Amen. I am longing for that city, and I'm just so thankful that heaven is real.

KC Wright: Me too. That was so special.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wasn't it special?

KC Wright: So special.

Okay, now to a journalist who sought evidence for heaven. You're about to hear from Lee Strobel. And he helps us understand what heaven feels like by reminding us of what Jesus calls heaven.

Lee Strobel: But Jesus uses metaphors. And I'll end with one of my favorites when he's talking to his disciples. And he uses a metaphor of home, that heaven is like home. And I don't know if you've ever traveled internationally, maybe to a third-world country where conditions are difficult. But I've been to India. I've lived on, you know, a sleeping bag on the ground and eaten foods that were strange to me. And you do that for a period of time and you begin to develop a homesickness. You begin to long for home. And when you finally return home from this trip and you walk into the door of your home, it is such a place of wonder and warmth and security and grace that you're just overwhelmed by. And you crawl into your own bed and it feels so good.

And Jesus is saying to his disciples and to us, that's the metaphor I want you to hang on to. Heaven is like a home. It's like a real home. This is not -- in our world, this is not our home. We're just passing through this world. Heaven is like home on steroids. And so we will experience those qualities of grace and joy and wonder and appreciation, and I believe adventure and creativity, as we spend eternity in the presence of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Heaven is our home. I mean, what Lee said reminds me of the Spurgeon quote that I won't quote perfectly. So, KC, read it for us.

KC Wright: "We are not far from home. Heaven is just one sigh and we get there. Our departed friends are only in the upper room, as it were, of the same house. They have not gone far off. They are upstairs, and we are down below." Isn't that beautiful?

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

KC Wright: Whoo! Chill bumps.

All right. Now from a journalist to a pastor. Pastors Lisa and Ed Young of Fellowship Church lost their daughter, LeeBeth, when she was just a young woman. Such a searing pain for parents.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: So Jennifer asked them if their perspective on heaven has changed, and here is what Lisa said.

Lisa Young: It's real, it's -- I had heard about books and things about heaven, and I can't really say that I read too many. I think more than anything -- which I will definitely read yours. But I look to Scripture to kind of see the truth text behind what we should imagine. You hear words like -- and I don't know. None of us really know. But I hear words about, oh, if, you know -- I'll tell you an example. My father passed away in 1997. And he was such a handyman, and he could just fix anything, build anything. And so whenever I'm fixing something, I'm like, oh, Daddy's looking down from heaven and he's so happy because I just fixed something.

And in reality, I now think that the glory of God is so magnificent, it would be a shame for them to be looking down on me because of so much that they have to see in heaven. And I don't know that that's accurate, but it's given me great comfort in my worship time, publicly at Fellowship Church or privately, to think about LeeBeth being before the throne and all of our loved ones being before the throne of God and in the most ultimate perfect worship ever. And ironically, as I worship, I am basking in the glory of God, but there is a hint of her presence right beside me because we're doing the same thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because you're fellowshipping before the throne.

Lisa Young: Right, right, right.

Pastor Ed Young: That's right.

Lisa Young: So I don't know that it gives us a clearer picture of what heaven is, but it does give us a greater desire to let people know that this is where they need to go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, KC, I think we just need to hear the Word, so will you read out of Revelation 7 for us.

KC Wright: Revelation 7:9-10. "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.'"

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I'm so glad you read that, because that is the reality that is happening right now. You know, I have a friend named Tammy Trent, and she lost her husband when they had only been married just about ten years. And she has said so many times Trent is not just part of her past; he's part of her future. Same applies to LeeBeth.

Anyway, let's move on, because there's going to be another voice here that you will recognize, Kathie Lee Gifford. And I want you to listen when I asked her what she would do -- when she gets to heaven, what's the first thing that she's going to do.

Someday your body is going to pass from death to life.

Kathie Lee Gifford: That's the good news.

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't it?

Kathie Lee Gifford: Especially the older you get.

Jennifer Rothschild: You'll be free someday in heaven.

Kathie Lee Gifford: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Frank's there, special people to you are there, Jesus is there. So -- you can answer this question however you want. You can be as spiritual as you want, you can -- whatever you want. But I want to know, what's the best thing that you're looking forward to doing or seeing or saying when you get to heaven?

Kathie Lee Gifford: Well, I always say people say all through their lives, When I get to heaven, I'm going to ask him about this, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Kathie Lee Gifford: I'm not going to ask him about anything.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kathie Lee Gifford: All will be revealed. There will be no questions. We will be in his presence, and that will be enough. Enough. And we won't even think about asking him a question. We will throw ourselves at his feet, which are also nail scarred. We always talk about his hands. But his feet were too. And we will throw ourselves at those feet and thank him and glorify him. And we'll say, "Okay, Jesus, what's next? We're here. Let's do it." Because our work will not be over, it will just be beginning.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't think I've heard a sweeter answer. Thank you for that, Kathie Lee.

Kathie Lee Gifford: Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Yeshua.

KC Wright: Love that.

Here's one more new voice and then one last voice. This is Amy Baik Lee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I got to talk to her about tuning in to eternity even now. Because when you think about it, we live right now between Jesus' two comings, in the already and in the not yet. And we want to experience the full reality of heaven now, because the hope of heaven, the reality of heaven really can heal the wounds of earth. So listen to Amy's words. They're just filled with wonder.

Amy Baik Lee: I think I always had a nebulous view of heaven as a place where all things would be set right and that we would no longer have death and pain and crying, like Revelation says, but I don't know that I ever knew how to imagine anything beyond that. And I certainly hadn't looked any more closely at the different passages in Scripture that talk about it too, but there's very concrete language that is given to describe the restoration that is coming.

So we have the heaven -- I guess theologians kind of -- some of them call it the intermediary heaven where -- that's immediately where we go after death. But at the end of the world, and at the end of time as we know it right now, there will be a great remaking of this current earth, and we'll have the New Heaven and the New Earth and that will be a wholeness. It will be a restoration not just of things as right before they were unbroken, but something even more whole than that. A place where we will bring our creation mandate to bear, a place where we will be fruitful and multiply and spread all over the earth with, you know, work that is not cursed and with worship that pervades everything. And so everything that we're learning to do here as a mode of worship to God -- which is not just gathering in churches on Sundays, but it's all of the creative endeavors, it's all of the things that we do for one another -- those are the things that we will get to flourish in.

So I've just loved that, that we get to think about that and we get to look forward to a life that is full and busy, but not in our sense of busy as we think of it now. Living into the reality that Jesus has told us that the Kingdom of God is coming, but it's also here among us right now, and it's in the midst of us and it's breaking through. I think that there is all the worth of our lives summed up in that statement, that it's worth paying attention to the Kingdom in our midst and to the Kingdom that is breaking through. Because, yes, we're waiting for wholeness and healing and restoration, but here is where we get to walk with him. And here, I believe, is where we get to see God in a capacity that we will not get to see him in in the new creation and in restoration, because it's here that we see him right alongside the brokenness. And it's here that we get to wait for him and watch for him and see the overtures to his love to us breaking through no matter what the afflictions of the present moment are. And as that relationship with him grows and as that adventure grows -- and it breaks us at times, I know. But as we build that history with him -- when I think of what it might be like when we arrive to our long-awaited home and we look back, I think it will be those stories that we remember that make us cry, that help us when we come face to face with him to remember all that he has been to us and all that we know him to be, and that is going to add an immeasurably sweet note of worship to him for eternity because we have seen him here and we have walked with him here.

And so if anything, I would say as we're living on this earth, it's worth it to embrace everything that is given to us to the full extent that we can, to lean into our lament and our grief and our sorrow, but also our celebration and our joy, and to embrace that, because it's here that we'll get to see him and here that he keeps surprising us. So I hope that as that happens, that we fall more and more deeply in love with him as we understand the depth of his character and we see the constancy of his tenderness towards us.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, KC, thinking about heaven, it really does just help us fall more in love with the Treasure of Heaven, Jesus. So let's walk with him now until the day he walks us home. And let's look forward. Because according to my dad, who you're about to hear again, it's going to be a glorious reunion.

Pastor Lawson Jolly: It's going to be a great reunion time. Reunion with those that you've loved on this earth, but they've gone on before. But it's going to be a reunion time with people we never saw on this earth. And maybe even we saw them, we never met them. And maybe even when we tried to meet them, we couldn't speak the same language or they were not the same color. But, oh, how we're going to rejoice for that reunion time, to know them then, to love them as a sister and brother in Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thanks, Dad. Heaven is going to be a forever reunion, and I cannot wait.

And can I just say a big thank you to all of our friends who gave us such beautiful words about heaven today. I loved each one. So you might need to listen to this again. You need to hear what your brothers and sisters say about our eventual home. And I bet you need to share this with somebody, because you've thought of somebody as you've been listening who you know needs this kind of encouragement. So share it with somebody.

KC Wright: And I just need to give a shameless plug right here. Okay? Jennifer's new Heaven Bible study is out. And if you were ministered to by just these glimpses of heaven, buckle up, because her "Heaven: When Faith Becomes Sight" Bible study is video enhanced. So that means you get seven free teaching videos with it to watch on your own or to do with a group. You can read a free sample chapter and even watch the first video teaching at 413podcast.com/Heaven.

Plus, there are some really good extra resources right there to help you long for heaven. You know, Max Lucado said, "We say they departed, but they have arrived."

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that the truth? They have arrived. They have.

KC Wright: They have arrived.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, listen, my people, if you want to go, you need to know. Okay? So if you want to go to heaven, you need to know all about it. So I will say one last line and then my Daddy will talk to you as we leave. So here's my last line. Save your fork. The best is yet to come.

Take it away, Dad.

Pastor Lawson Jolly: You probably have heard that story about the fork. A lady was terminally ill and had her pastor to come visit her. And talked about the songs she wanted and just how she wanted her funeral service to go. And she said, "Now, there's going to be something unusual as I -- there I'm going to have a fork in my hand." And he looked a little strange, and she said, "Let me explain it to you. Because everybody that's going to come by is going to ask, 'Why is she holding that fork?' And then I want you to tell them during your message."

She went on to say, "When I was a little girl and eating at my grandmother's, and they'd start cleaning the table and taking the plates away, my grandmother used to say, 'Keep your fork, the best is coming,' meaning the dessert." She said, "And, Pastor, I want you to explain to them that's what that fork means. It's been a good life, but the best is yet to be."

Unidentified Man: Amen.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Become a Biblical Future Thinker? [Episode 332]

Jennifer Rothschild: Focusing on your future can change today. Research has actually shown that thinking about the future can actually improve your mental health. It can reduce worry, it can increase hope, and refine your sense of purpose. Sounds pretty good, right? Well, today we're going to break get this down to discover how thinking about your certain future, which is heaven, can make a huge difference in how you live today. I'm going to give you three ways to become a biblical future thinker. So get ready to lighten your load, get some practical strategies to fight the doldrums, and become the future thinker that God created you to be.

All right, KC. It's a new year and new focus. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, our friends. We're so glad you're with us in this new year. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. It's two friends and one topic and zero stress here in the podcast closet. And we are calling this year 20-20-thrive.

KC Wright: Whoo!

Jennifer Rothschild: We're pretty pumped around here. Because as you know, my latest Bible study, "Heaven: When Faith Becomes Sight" is finally available. It's only been out a couple of weeks, and we've gotten some really good reviews. But by the way, you may not know this. We were out of town when our shipment came in.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so Phil called you, KC, and said, "Hey, will you pick it up?"

KC Wright: It was such an honor.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what happened?

KC Wright: It was such an honor. I felt such a weight of responsibility on me. And because Dr. Phil and Jennifer do so much for me -- they never ask for anything in return. And so when the opportunity arises that I get to give back, I'm first in line.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, you're so nice.

KC Wright: So I fly over there in the Jeep, and here I find all these boxes at the UPS store, and I load my truck with Heaven. And I'm driving down the road in my Jeep truck with Heaven in my truck. And so I was -- I don't know, I got a little emotional. I know that sounds really weird.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's sweet, though.

KC Wright: But I was thinking about the impact, seriously, of every one of these books and how heaven is our home We don't belong here; we're just pilgrims, we're passing through.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: One translation says we're aliens, which I'm more --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you are kinda --

KC Wright: -- I can relate with that.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- some days, yeah.

KC Wright: But I was thinking about, oh, my goodness, God has penned yet another book through our J.R., and it's sitting in the back of my truck.

And so then I felt another responsibility. When I arrived, I had to just make sure all the boxes were perfect.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, don't damage Heaven.

KC Wright: Yes. Because they arrived undamaged.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: I did not want to be the guy to --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Heaven is perfect. Keep it that way.

Well, I love it, KC, because you always have heaven in your heart. Then you had Heaven in your Jeep.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then, ladies and gentlemen, we're very sophisticated here at World Headquarters. Our warehouse is in the garage. So KC stacked box after box after box in the garage.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I love it, KC, because Heaven, the Bible study itself, it's been out just a week or two, but it's already making a difference. And so I think Gretchen -- you've got some -- she caught some reviews for you, for you to read there to see how women are already responding. Which I love this.

KC Wright: Let me read some reviews, just to give you a taste. So, Rose, podcast hug to you. She wrote, "I highly recommend doing the study because it will change your life and perspective on how to live on earth and how important heaven is beyond wanting just to see family and friends."

Janet said, "I was reminded that our life here is brief and I need to number my days. Also love the statement that as wonderful as heaven will be, Jesus is our greatest reward."

Jennifer Rothschild: I loved that.

KC Wright: Yes. Marie wrote, "I love the concept that we can re-brand frailty with strength and dignity."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: And one other one that I loved, Marie wrote, "Eden had no tombstones" -- amen to that -- "and neither will heaven."

Jennifer Rothschild: Nope.

KC Wright: Whoo!

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, man.

KC Wright: You know, Jennifer, you said last week on the behind-the-scenes audio picture episode that earth is short and heaven is long, and that has really stuck with me.

And by the way, if you missed that, you will need to go back and listen. It was so cool to get just some ear candy, a little snapshot of being behind the scenes with J.R. And the bonus episode of Blue Flower Moments that followed, really inspiring.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: Also, you said that Ann Voskamp said you should promote your Heaven Bible study as beginning with the end in mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good idea, right?

KC Wright: So true. Because heaven is our future, it is the end. Well, actually, the beginning really.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: So you call it our glorious unending.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is our glorious unending. And if we really think about that truth, my people, like, if we really grasp that reality, it can change everything. It has for me. And so if we keep the future in mind, that certain future of heaven, it can change how we live today. I said it earlier, that focusing on the future can actually impact and change today.

But here's the thing. It can do that either for the positive or the not so positive. It's easy, though, you know, when you think about it, KC, at the beginning of a new year, to think about this brand-new future -- right? -- that lies before us. We've got all these days ahead that are full of hope and possibility, and we wonder what will unfold. It'll have so much hope and promise.

And, of course, it also contains uncertainty. There might be a lot of hope, but there's still uncertainty. And uncertainty is often a whole lot less easy to be excited about and to embrace with anticipation. You know, what's going to happen with my kids at school, or what's going to happen with my mom's health, or my finances, or, you know, this job. You get the idea. We think about those things because it is pretty uncertain. And it's easier to be excited about what we know will happen. Like, I know I'm going to have coffee with my friend on Friday, or I know I'm getting that new car this year. Or at least we suppose we know those things. But even the coffee date or the new car, I mean, they're still not certain. They're not 100%. Our futures, like, no matter how much we plan at best, there's still an element of uncertainty.

So what if you could start this new year by focusing on the bright future that is ahead of you that is absolutely for certain? Because heaven is your certain future if you are in Christ, if you know Jesus. Now, even though it might feel like it's forever away, the reality of that day can really make a difference on how you live this day and all the days to come.

KC Wright: And, you know, this conversation is not just for those who are a little closer to heaven. It's for the 20- and 30- and 40- and 50-somethings also. And it's not morbid to acknowledge that, that someday we will be in heaven. I like to say it this way: there's 100% chance none of us are getting out of here alive. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, the statistics are true.

KC Wright: But it's actually wise to think about it. I was reading that there is actually science that affirms why focusing on the future is good for you. And when it is a certain future, like heaven, then it is really wise to do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And I sent you that -- I know exactly what you're talking about. So part of that article talked about how our brains are anticipatory in nature. Because we're only capable of moving toward the future, our brains are wired to be future oriented, to anticipate. So that's why you might spend a little bit of your brain time speculating on what you think might happen. Or if you're like me, you have a Plan A, a Plan B, a Plan C. Okay, I might have some prepper tendencies. Like, I'm always planning. Seriously, I go out of town for two days, you should see my backpack. Like, I have everything you could possibly need. Like, one time I literally had one of those little heat pouches, like, that -- you know, it's like a hot pack, so you open it and it gets hot?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just in case my back started hurting. Did I ever need it? No. But I had it. I don't know.

Are you that way, KC? Are you a prepper?

KC Wright: I have friends that are end-time preppers. Like, I have a buddy who -- he is ready for a zombie apocalypse at any time. And I kid you not, if World War III happens -- in Jesus' name it won't -- we're all safe in his home. I mean, he's got the food, he's got the -- whatever.

I mean, I prep for vacation really well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's a great thing to be a prepper for.

KC Wright: And I do have a backpack in case something happens.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you could step out the house real quick with yourself?

KC Wright: I have things like that in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you're a little bit of a future thinker --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and that's good.

KC Wright: I have things in case of an emergency. Like, if the lights go out, we're good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: You know, if the heat goes down, you know, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and the good thing is you have a friend who's prepared for actually --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- anything that could happen, right?

KC Wright: For real. For real, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I think a lot of us are that way. We focus on the future. So let's think about you -- okay? -- as you're listening right now. How does future thinking show up in your life? Future thinking, it can take the form of planning, strategizing, or anticipating. And that's really good stuff. We need people like KC's friend who are prepared, who think ahead and do all this and focus on the future. But the problem comes when you fixate on the uncertainty of the future. And maybe even you start to obsess about a worst-case scenario. Or maybe you anticipate, oh, it's just a matter of time till the next shoe drops. You know what I'm talking about. That kind of future thinking, man, that creates mental health issues like anxiety, like depression.

But here's the thing. Even if you aren't, like, a real depressed Eeyore kind of thinker and you don't spend a lot of time imagining those worst-case scenarios, just contemplating the uncertainty of life, it can create this kind of, you know, low-grade, free-floating anxiety and make you insecure, which can eventually lead to doom and gloom. And then if you find yourself depressed, it becomes this vicious cycle. Because research has even shown that many people who struggle with depression, they have parts of their brain that are supposed to be in charge of future thinking, they're not as active as they should be, which makes it really hard to anticipate positive future events like your beautiful future in heaven. What do you think about that, KC?

KC Wright: Okay, that is bleak. So let's think about this for a moment. In Christ, your future is not uncertain.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: Sure, you don't know exactly how every chapter of your life will unfold -- we don't know that -- but you know how it ends, with your glorious unending, with your faith becoming sight. Can we just stop right there and ponder? Selah, calm, pause, think about this. When your faith becomes sight, you know your future is in heaven. One day our faith will become our vision. Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm glad you repeated it. Because that is our reality.

You know, I've got this friend named John, and he was telling me that his daughter -- she loves to read, but she always reads the last chapter of her book first, because she says that it helps her get through, like, the hard chapters or the difficult chapters, the challenging chapters, the boring chapters, whatever, if she knows how the story ends. I love that, my people, because we know how our story ends. We have a certain future.

In fact, I just want KC to read for us, because I want the Word to speak for itself when it comes to our future. Just sit back, take a deep breath, and listen while KC reads these verses about your glorious unending, about when your faith becomes sight, about heaven. He's going to read these over you.

KC Wright: John 14:1-3. "Do not let your heart be troubled. You believe in God. Believe also in me. My Father's house has many rooms. If that were not so, would I have told you that I'm going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

KC Wright: 2 Corinthians 5:5-8. "Now, the One who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Therefore, we will always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord, for we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."

Revelation 21:4-7. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new!' Then he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.' He said to me: 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty, I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.'"

Jennifer Rothschild: Beautiful.

KC Wright: I hope I'm in your corner of heaven, J.R.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I think you will be.

KC Wright: With all the 4:13ers --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I think we will be.

KC Wright: -- and Cece Winans leading worship.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, KC, I mean, you just read about it. That right there, that's our future.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It really is our future. So I'm curious, what would happen if you focused on that, my people --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- on your future? What if you keep the end in mind, as KC said earlier?

You know -- I was a psychology major, KC. I know you know that. And in therapy, a mental health professional, she would help her client develop future thinking skills, because that would help reduce depression. And so she might, you know, really coach up and train her client to visualize the future. She may encourage her client to have some goal setting and to help that person who might be struggling with depression or anxiety. She might help that client ponder and get to know her future self. Like, think about what your future self is going to be.

Okay. So I was thinking about those principles, like what would happen in a therapeutic setting with a counselor. And knowing what Scripture says about heaven, what if we applied some of those therapeutic practices in a biblical way to ground us in eternity and make life better on this day? Okay? So I thought we would just go through these. And let's just consider how these following three practices might help this day better in light of the reality of your certain future in heaven. I want you to think about that day, think about how these three concepts, these three practices, might help you have a better day today and every day to come this new year.

KC Wright: I love this.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. First one is this: visualize your future. Now, this is not some weird hooley-gooley out-there thing. Like, you know, visualize yourself being 100% successful and therefore you will be. No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about in the context of what KC just read in Scripture. Visualize your future. I mean, he just read about heaven. Could you see it? I mean, I could. And so if you even read Revelation 22, you're going to see the river of life flowing, you're going to see the Holy City coming down from God. That's your future home.

Now, often when we think of heaven, like, we think of clouds and angels and harps and all these ethereal things that we just really can't relate to. But, my people, heaven, it's a literal place. It is a material place. It's not just ethereal, but it is literal and it is material. That means there is a present heaven right now. When my daddy died in 2018, my daddy went immediately to be in the presence of the Lord, in the present heaven, in the presence of God.

Now, there will come a day when Christ returns. And all of us who are in Christ, whether we have been in the present heaven or whether we are still on earth, will be ushered into the New Earth, our forever heaven, where we will have resurrected bodies. So think about it. How can visualizing your certain future in heaven, both the present heaven and the New Earth, improve your mental and emotional health today? What does your biblically-informed imagination see when you imagine heaven and you visualize your future, and how can what you see impact what you see today?

So for me, KC, when darkness just presses in, literally I visualize that city where Revelation talks about where we won't need the light because Jesus will be our light. And I'm telling you, the darkness of blindness suddenly doesn't feel so heavy when I visualize my future. Or when tears flow, like, when I'm just fatigued or sad and tears flow, I literally visualize the hand of God wiping away those tears once and for all. To feel the hand of God, to visualize that moment, y'all, that's what I'm talking about.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So pause and consider how you can apply this technique within the biblical confines of visualizing your future. And how's that going to strengthen you right now? How's that going to give you hope for this day? How's that going to build your anticipation for that day? So consider that. You want to visualize your future. Okay?

Second way. This is another technique to help you become a very biblically grounded future thinker. Okay? Second way, set some goals. So, like, if you were in counseling and you were just stuck in the doldrums or in depression, one of the things a therapist would help you do is figure out some goals, some short-term goals, some accessible goals, some realistic goals, some doable goals -- okay? -- because we need goals in life. Well, think about how the reality of heaven initiates and may shape some goals here for you here on earth. Okay?

So the present heaven and the New Earth, they are sure things. If that's true, which it is, then what kinds of goals could you implement here that would give you a greater sense of purpose and align your heart with that day, like, as you're pressing on to that prize that God has called you heavenward? So I'm thinking, KC, like, for me, it makes me persevere. Literally one of my goals in this life is I am not going to quit.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I know James 1:12 says that I will be blessed -- there will be a crown of life --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for me if I persevere, right?

KC Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it is a goal for me. I am going to persevere.

But I'll tell you another goal that I have learned to choose, because of the reality of heaven, is to love people more.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just to love them more. Because the stuff -- like, accumulating stuff or having -- it doesn't matter. People do. And to love them well. I know that one of my goals is that when I get to heaven, I want to hear Jesus say, like he said in -- oh, man, was it John 13? "You have loved them like I have loved you." Like, that's a goal for me --

KC Wright: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because of the reality of heaven.

So I'm curious. Like, what about you? Do you have some goals that you just live by because of the truth of heaven?

KC Wright: Well, and one more about you, J.R. -- and I'm so proud of you. Jesus said, "If you love me, feed my sheep." And that is what's happening with the 4:13 Podcast. You love Jesus with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength. And each podcast we pray, "Father, use this podcast to reach one more heart with the Word." We are feeding his sheep.

But with me, all the things you said, You know, we've got this grace to run this race, and I am not going to quit. In "Finding Nemo," it's, "Just keep swimming." But honestly, you just keep going. Do not let the enemy of our souls win. We are the victorious ones.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we are.

KC Wright: The same power that raised Christ Jesus from the dead dwells in us.

But one thing -- you know, we thank God for all the ministry gifts. And God has placed the evangelist and the prophet and the teacher and all that. But we're all called to the ministry of reconciliation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we are.

KC Wright: And we can't be so attached to things on earth that we forget that people are the only things we can take to heaven, bring to heaven, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: So just -- yes, we praise God for the evangelists, but we're all called to seek and save that which is lost.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's right.

KC Wright: There was a group of grannies that prayed for this troubled teenager when I was a mess, you know. And who can we pray for? Who can we invite? I read this stat this week that 82% of people would come to church if you just invited them, and only 2% of Christians invite friends.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word.

KC Wright: But not only getting them to church, but we are to be the church everywhere we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, to love them like Jesus.

KC Wright: So the goal is to love and to also -- man, I'm telling you, we have all these conversations that don't mean squat. Politics and sports and the weather. Man, if you really love somebody, look them square in the eye and just say, "Have you made Jesus your Lord?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: "Can I tell you about the greatest love story ever?" "Can I tell you some Good News?" And then just tell them about Jesus. Like, I was this way before him and I'm this way now. And It's all through a prayer I prayed, and I can pray that with you, and I can get you a Bible, and -- just be about the Father's business, man.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love that. I mean, when Jesus was on earth, that's what his goal was, to be about the Father's business. He said, "I came to serve, not to be served."

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, I think we can literally look at Jesus' earthly life and ministry. Whatever were his goals, boy, they'd be some good goals for us. So, yeah, I think it's important to think about our goals.

I remember when I was in seventh grade, there was a bulletin board -- I could still see then. And there was a bulletin board in one of my classrooms that said, "Set goals. Because if you aim at nothing, you will hit it."

KC Wright: You will hit nothing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And I'm like -- I've never forgotten it.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I think when we consider the reality of heaven, setting goals here helps us. Because here's the thing, we don't want to get to the end, to our last breath, with this boatload of regret, thinking, oh, my gosh, I wish I had done this. Because we're not going to get to the end of our life and go, oh, man, I wish I'd built a bigger house, oh, man, I wish I --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. It's going to be, no, I wish I'd loved people better, I wish I'd listened more, I wish I'd invited -- you know.

KC Wright: It's true. It's true, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah, we got to think about those goals. So let's be goal setters, my people.

All right, third way. Get to know your future self. Now, I love this concept. Okay? And this is really just an exercise in choosing to live intentionally and to experiencing hope. Okay? Because there is a future you. There's a future you who will be alive and well on the New Earth in your glorious unending when your faith becomes sight someday. Okay? So what is she going to experience? What is he going to be like? How is he going to feel? Think about those things. Because it's true, you will be more alive then than you are even today. So visualize, think about, and get to know that future you when you're finally home in your Father's house.

2 Corinthians 15, by the way, if you read that whole chapter, you learn that we will eventually have a resurrected body. When Christ returns, we will have a resurrected body, a glorified body, and it will be like Jesus' resurrected body. Well, if you think about Jesus' resurrected body after he rose from the dead, he was here on earth for a little while before he ascended to the Father. And he ate --

KC Wright: Yeah, fish.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- he drank, he laughed, he loved. He was a part of life in its fullest sense. You will be also.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You will be fully alive. And so I think sometimes we need to get to know that future us who's going to live unconfined and unconstrained.

Now, you know, when Jesus still was here on earth, yes, there were some laws of nature, but he didn't have to obey all of them. He still walked through walls if he chose to. And who knows what the laws of nature will be when we are there and nature has been renewed. But we will still be like Jesus was. We will have some kind of embodiment.

But even better, seriously, y'all, than the physical is the state of our emotions and our intellect. We're going to be fully redeemed, perfected. We are going to know as we are known. There will no more sin, there will be no sorrow, no pain. That's the you who's going to live forever in the presence of the Lord on the New Earth.

So what is that future you? Think about this. What would that future you, who's fully alive, free, mature in God's presence, what would that future you say to you right now? How would that future you coach you to have maybe a more grounded perspective or eternal perspective? How can your future self influence your present self? What would she say to you? Anything? Maybe that when you think about that, you might want to begin to change now based on future you. I know when I think about it, there's some things that I'm like, I don't know that I want to make a big deal of that because someday that won't exist anymore. I think I'm going to let that go. I'm going to forgive quicker. I'm going to let my future me influence my now me and grow in maturity.

So I think of 2 Corinthians 4:16-18. There's going to be a day when we are fully alive on the New Earth. And I'm going to look back on that day and think of 2 Corinthians 4:16 that said, "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we're wasting away" -- which that's us right now -- "inwardly daily we're still being renewed." And these light and temporary troubles, when we get there someday, our future us is going to say, see, it was working in you a far greater weight of glory. Remember all those things that you saw? You shouldn't have fixed your eyes on those things that were seen, because those were temporary. So what I'm saying now, what my present self needs to hear from my future self is, hey, keep fixing your eyes on the future, because that is your reality. So, my people, this result, the result of really having sound biblical future thinking, is boosted hope.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't you need it?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: An eternal perspective.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And greater perseverance. So become the future thinker that you were created to be. Don't waste time getting weighed down by the troubles of today when you can be grounded by the truth of eternity. So when sorrow hits, visualize God wiping away those tears.

When you get caught up in the mundane and you feel like you're just starting to lose your shine or your sense of purpose, turn your mind to your future joy, your future self, and your future reality and make pressing on to the prize of knowing Jesus better, better, and better one of the goals, because that way it'll just be a sweet reunion when you get to heaven someday.

This is part of the way, quite honestly -- I'm being very candid -- that I manage blindness. I mean, I live completely present in the dailiness, in the moments of darkness, of blindness. I feel the sting of it. I feel the loss of it. I feel the weight of it. It's very fatiguing. I don't ever get a vacation from it. I just never escape the dark. But I do think about my future, that is just as real as the present darkness, and I imagine the place that blue flowers grow, where there's no night, the place that I'm going to dance and I'm going to run. And if you're there -- and I hope you're there -- I'm going to serve you coffee and we're going to fellowship together in the light, and it'll be the light that even these blind eyes will see.

KC Wright: This is so good. This is so good. I needed all of this. I know you did too. Such a good way to start a new year. Such a good way to reset our thinking and set our mind on things above. And this is a great taste of the kind of wisdom and encouragement you will get in Jennifer's "Heaven: When Faith Becomes Sight" Bible study. It's a six-week study and includes seven free videos of Jennifer's teaching also. You can learn more right now and get a copy at 413podcast.com/Heaven, or you can just simply go to jenniferrothschild.com/Heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And there you can find -- if you want to read the first chapter for free, check it out. You can do that. And you can also watch the first teaching video for free also there.

I also put together, KC, a Heaven playlist while I was writing the Bible study.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: So I have all these songs that I listened to while I was writing, and I broke them up based on themes. So as you're reading and studying, you can listen to these same songs, and I think it'll help deepen the message. So that's there too. There's all sorts of good stuff there at jenniferrothschild.com/Heaven.

KC Wright: Yeah, and all sorts of Heaven swag, believe it or not.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Like the cool "Earth Is Short, Heaven Is Long" T-shirt and tote bag. You need this beautiful study on heaven. You will learn and unlearn so much.

So become a biblical future thinker. You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: You know, while we were talking about heaven, one of my favorite evangelists, Dwight L. Moody.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: Yeah. He said, "One day you'll read in the paper that Dwight L. Moody has died. But on that day, don't you believe a word of it, because on that day, I'll be more alive than ever."

And when he was dying, his son has an account of -- his dad was slipping out of earth into the reality of heaven, and he kept going in and out of his sleep. And he said, "I've been to the city. I've seen the children." And his son goes, "Oh, Dad, you're just dreaming. You're just imagining that." He said, "No. No. I've been to the city gates. Today is my coronation day."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh. May it be, Lord, may it be.

4:13 Podcast: Blue Flower Moments - Audio Pictures [BONUS]

KC Wright: Welcome to a bonus episode, a beautiful bonus episode of the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. Now, settle in for a special episode about Blue Flower Moments.

Here's your host and my soul sister, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness, my people, you're about to love this. So we've been talking about the Heaven Bible study around here, and a blue flower is very significant. And so you're about to learn why. So if we're new friends, I'm Jennifer, and I really do want to share with you some Blue Flower Moments.

Okay. So as I mentioned, in my new Heaven Bible study, I try to depict, like, the longing for heaven, the ache for our forever home using the motif of a blue flower. And here's why. I first learned about it from none other than -- you're going to be so surprised, KC -- C.S. Lewis.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: If we've been friends for long, you know I love C.S. Lewis. And so in his book "Surprised By Joy," he called himself a votary of the blue flower. Well, that was so unique to me. So first of all, a votary, it's just an old-fashioned way of saying a devote, like someone who's devoted to. So I was like, okay, C.S. Lewis is devoted to the blue flower, and I am devoted to C.S. Lewis.

Okay. So what in the world does that mean? All right. Well, in German romantic literature, the blue flower was used to represent or to capture longing, transcendence, beauty, the ache for the eternal. Like, it's almost this longing that is unmet, yet the not being met is still very satisfying. It's just this beautiful ache that is satisfying in and of itself. Well, that's how I feel about heaven. I do have this ache for the eternal.

So for me, when I created what I call these Blue Flower Moments, they're just moments that awaken my longing for heaven. They, like, stir my spiritual senses and they make me cast my gaze toward heaven. So I just thought I would take you into my Blue Flower Moments through these audio pictures, and maybe you can open your spiritual eyes, open your heart, and see with me these Blue Flower Moments.

[AUDIO PICTURE #1]

Jennifer Rothschild: So here I am out on the deck. Spring morning. The rain is still just drizzling. And the birds. Like, where I'm standing, it's like surround sound, like all creation is saying, "It's almost time, it's almost time, our redemption." I wonder if this is what it was like that weekend when Jesus was crucified. I know it was so very dark and sad for the followers who were confused, but I just think creation knew the Master was about to bust through and reverse the curse and redeem this whole earth and all creation and all created beings from the curse of death. This must have been what it sounded like.

So now I stand here right now and I literally am turning my head to follow the whole width and distance of where I'm hearing all the sound. And I know my eyes right now cannot see one single thing except dark, but I can see it in my imagination. I can see the blue flowers blooming. I can see the rain droplets glistening on the leaves of that Japanese maple. I can see how the drops of water are pooling and puddling on the wood of the deck. In my imagination, I can see every feather on those mourning doves and cardinals. And I just know if this captures my imagination and I think this is like exhaling into a beauty I've never known, then what in the world will it be like? I cannot even imagine. It's beyond what I can imagine.

This right here is the blue flower. It's the ache. I'm just going to call this moment, this morning, one of the seeds of the blue flower. That longing, that ache, the joy that comes from being and wanting, the joy that comes from possessing and wanting more, that's the blue flower. So let these seeds grow and grow and grow and continue to awaken in me and grow in me this longing and desire for my true home, my true country, the true beauty. This right here, it's not the point; it's one of the pointers.

[AUDIO PICTURE #2]

Jennifer Rothschild: This is an audio picture at -- almost 9:00 p.m., right, honey?

Dr. Phil: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like May 25th. We're sitting out in a cove in the boat. You can hear the water lapping up against the boat. We had music playing, but we decided the birds were more beautiful. And there were some crickets, but it just got quiet. Phil said a little mama duck and her line of baby ducks just passed us.

[AUDIO PICTURE #3]

Jennifer Rothschild: (The song "Thank You Jesus for the Blood" playing.) Listen to that. A little taste of heaven when every tribe, every tongue, and every nation will be basking in the glory of the Lamb. We'll all sing the same song that Jesus redeemed us. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus, for Women of Joy gathering all these women. Yeah. That glorious light is going to be in a place also where there is no more night. We get to live it now and look forward to it then.

[AUDIO PICTURE #4]

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it is the Saturday night before Labor Day 2023 and I'm sitting out here on the deck for just a few minutes by myself. Close to 9:00 p.m. And Lori and Todd have been here all weekend, and we've had such a blessing of a time. It's been so much fun. Lori and I have sung '70s music at the top of our lungs, we've been out on the boat, we've been to dinner. We've just talked about everything and nothing. And I've known Lori Cooley for 32 years, and for 32 years she's been one of my dearest friends and richest treasures. And it's a blessing to have her husband, Todd, who's also my brother and such a dear friend of Phil, as part of this beautiful time together.

So just taking a moment to pause and think and thank the Lord for my friends and for his kindness in giving me my friends and this time to just experience the joy of it all. Maybe this is part of the ache, the longing, the recognition that how good this is is just a foretaste of what it's going to be like forever and ever, because I don't like the thought of it ending tomorrow. But maybe that's because there's going to be a forever beginning when it's never going to end. Pure fellowship forever and ever in heaven.

[AUDIO PICTURE #5]

Jennifer Rothschild: I can't really see, of course, the light very well, but I can always tell when it's soft, because it doesn't hurt my eyes. And so it's really soft right now. The light is very soft. So I just know that it must be that grayish blue beautiful soft light. I don't know. If heaven has a soundtrack, I think this must be on the playlist. All creatures of our God and King.

[AUDIO PICTURE #6]

Jennifer Rothschild: Sitting outside here at The Cove, the Billy Graham Training Center. There's a creek babbling beneath us. Listen to how -- when I came out here, I thought of the line from the song, "The Hills are Alive With the Sound of Music," and then I thought -- after studying heaven, all I could think when I heard all this beauty surrounding me is as beautiful as this is, what will it be when it's been redeemed and fully restored? Because this right here is still groaning. Wait till the glory. What is the New Earth going to be like? No wonder we have to have glorified bodies. These earthbound flesh ones just can't take it in. It's so beautiful. It is such a beautiful morning.

[AUDIO PICTURE #7]

Jennifer Rothschild: Early October, sitting out on the deck. Low '70s, warm afternoon with a cool breeze. Got me a cappuccino from Seven Brew, which is the new coffee shop near our house. Taking off the lid so that I can enjoy all the foam. Oh, yeah. It's the small things. It's the small things. Got to pause and notice the small things, because they represent -- they're like little glimpses, little shadows of all the good things to come.

[AUDIO PICTURE #8]

Jennifer Rothschild: Speaking of blue, can I ask you a question?

Jennifer's Grandson: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: So -- just because I want to hear what you just said about this. Did you think these blue flowers -- do you remember where these blue flowers were from?

Jennifer's Grandson: No.

Jennifer's Grandson: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you remember that Gigi had --

Jennifer's Grandson: When you graduated?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, like graduation? Yeah. It's when Gigi was teaching about heaven. But are they pretty still, or are they about to fade?

Jennifer's Grandson: They're still pretty.

Jennifer Rothschild: They are pretty.

Jennifer's Grandson: They're mostly blue and white.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's pretty, yeah.

Jennifer's Grandson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you know what these flowers are called?

Jennifer's Grandson: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Hydrangea.

Jennifer's Grandson: I might have actually heard of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a hard word to say.

Jennifer's Grandson: Is that like flowers of God?

Jennifer Rothschild: They are like flowers of God. I like to think of them as flowers of God, because this flower reminds me of heaven because it's so beautiful.

Jennifer's Grandson: And I know that God is --

Jennifer's Grandson: And also [indecipherable] name?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well --

Jennifer's Grandson: And I also know that heaven is paradise.

Jennifer Rothschild: Heaven is paradise. That's right. How'd you learn that?

Jennifer's Grandson: Well, Mommy just told me that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, Mommy's right, heaven is paradise.

Jennifer's Grandson: I think I knew that.

Jennifer Rothschild: You probably did. You know what?

Jennifer's Grandson: Because paradise means great.

Jennifer Rothschild: It sure does. It's going to be beautiful. Gigi just likes to imagine that there's blue flowers in heaven.

Jennifer's Grandson: Um, Gigi?

Jennifer Rothschild: What?

Jennifer's Grandson: So, like, in heaven, people just think, like, it's -- like the ground is made of water, but actually not. It's actually the whole town.

Jennifer Rothschild: The whole town is? Wow.

Jennifer's Grandson: Actually, the streets are made of gold, diamonds, and things like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Really?

Jennifer's Grandson: And rubies.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. That's going to be beautiful.

Jennifer's Grandson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Who gets to go to heaven?

Jennifer's Grandson: Grandpa Jolly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, Grandpa Jolly went to heaven, that's for sure.

Jennifer's Grandson: Well, if you believe in him, then you will get to go to heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right, if you believe in Jesus, we go to heaven, yeah.

Jennifer's Grandson: But I must be nice?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, when we believe in Jesus, we are nice.

Jennifer's Grandson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But just being nice doesn't help us go to heaven. Only believing in Jesus lets us go to heaven.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURES]

Jennifer Rothschild: It is Christ who draws our hearts to beauty. He is the one who gives us capacity to even long for a deep joy that he alone can satisfy. So the Blue Flower Moments, they are pointers. They point to Jesus, who can satisfy every single longing.

So slow down. Notice your Blue Flower Moments. They are everywhere. And let each of those Blue Flower Moments draw you closer to heaven, and even more importantly, to the Treasure of Heaven, Jesus.

KC Wright: You can get a copy of the Heaven Bible study at 413podcast.com/Heaven or jenniferrothschild.com/Heaven. And there you can find Jennifer's heaven playlist, her favorite seven books about heaven, and even watch the first video teaching and read the very first chapter for free. Okay, enjoy your Blue Flower Moments.

4:13 Podcast: Behind the Scenes of Heaven - Audio Pictures [Episode 331]

KC Wright: Hey, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast. Do you like the new music? The whole month we're using this song called "Ascending" by Michael O'Brien on the podcast. Do you know why? Because this song is part of our girl Jennifer's latest video-based Bible study titled "Heaven: When Faith Becomes Sight." And we're celebrating around here for the whole month. So welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength.

Now here's your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. And that was my friend KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. He's right, we are celebrating all month, because finally my "Heaven: When Faith Becomes Sight" Bible study releases today. I'm so grateful. It was a long time coming, and I am so thankful it is out in the world.

So I was with a friend of mine -- KC, you know her and love her -- Ann Voskamp --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and we were talking about my Bible study and when it was releasing. You know, I said, "January 2nd." She said, "Oh my goodness. Then you should promote it as beginning with the end in mind."

KC Wright: Oh, wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that true? You want to begin 2025 with the ultimate end in mind, heaven.

KC Wright: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that is just a great way to think about heaven. It really is. When our faith becomes sight, is our glorious unending. So this year let's do that, let's begin with the end in mind.

But since we're family, I thought it would be fun for you to hear some of the behind the scenes of me writing "Heaven." Okay. So before we begin with the end in mind, we're going to begin at the beginning. Now, what you're about to hear is a bunch of audio pictures. And if you've never heard any of my audio picture episodes, this is literally just like what you would do with your camera where you would take a picture of something and then look at it later. Well, because I can't see, I record things, and they're little audio snapshots of moments in my world. So I thought I would take you behind the scenes writing, or attempting to write, "Heaven." So we'll start with me in Florida. Because that's a very inspiring place to write about heaven, right? Well, not so much. I had high hopes, but very low output.

[AUDIO PICTURE #1]

Jennifer Rothschild: This is the sound outside my window here in Treasure Island as I'm working. I have a standing desk right under the window. And it's a cool morning, so the windows are open. Again writing on heaven. Trying, actually. Did I say writing? That's a very strong word. I'm reading about heaven and thinking about heaven and feeling writer's block about heaven.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #1]

Jennifer Rothschild: So I got home and then I was thinking, you know, I can write better at home. Right? But before I could write, I had to rearrange my office --

KC Wright: Of course.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because that's what I do. Right? That's what I literally do with every new writing project. I redecorate, I rearrange. And so here you go.

[AUDIO PICTURE #2]

Jennifer Rothschild: This one here.

Kenzie Harkrider: Yes, ma'am.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then the only -- the other lamp I had on my desk --

Kenzie Harkrider: Yeah, you had one on your desk, one on the middle table, and then the one in the corner.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you prefer this one over here than the one with the white shade?

Kenzie Harkrider: The tall one? Is that what you're talking about?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Kenzie Harkrider: I think so. I think it would block the windows too much.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, gotcha. That's all I need here. Okay. All right. So then I have that extra lamp that I could put somewhere?

Kenzie Harkrider: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Okay.

Kenzie Harkrider: It's a pretty lamp.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is a pretty lamp. All right. Where is it right now, just so I know for later?

Kenzie Harkrider: It is -- where do you want me to put it? It's in here. So --

Jennifer Rothschild: What else do I have left? I have the --

Kenzie Harkrider: We just need to put your chair behind your desk and on the big metal trunk.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm. With the silver service on it?

Kenzie Harkrider: Yes, ma'am.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then I have that other lamp?

Kenzie Harkrider: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think this is gonna look good.

Kenzie Harkrider: I think so.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a different look, but I like it.

Kenzie Harkrider: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Does it look bigger?

Kenzie Harkrider: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. It's an odd shaped office [indecipherable] furniture in it. Okay. Let's just move my trunk into the dining room.

Kenzie Harkrider: Okay. I'm gonna leave the lamp in here with all the other stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, on that trunk?

Kenzie Harkrider: By the trunk, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Thank you.

Kenzie Harkrider: So we know where it's at. Let me put your chair back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you.

Kenzie Harkrider: New Bible study, new office.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's usually what I do.

Kenzie Harkrider: Late night office renovations.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #2]

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm not really sure that it helped, because here's another example of my attempt to write.

[AUDIO PICTURE #3]

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So now I decided to come sit at the kitchen table. And I am dressed and working with a second cup of coffee, and it is in a mug that says, "It Is Well With My Soul." I'm running the dishwasher. I've got my sun lamp at the table here for me and my prayer plant. So, like, here we go. Here. We. Go. Yes. It's only like 5:55. Yes.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #3]

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, then we went to Nashville, Tennessee, for a writers' conference. Now, let me explain what that is. A writers' conference is when all these different representatives from the publishing house gather and I, as the author, get to kind of share what the vision is. If I have a proposal written -- which I did -- I share the proposal. And then as a team we get to go through it and, like, see if there's any gaps or if they have any better ideas.

And so what's really cool, KC, is they include, like, someone from marketing, someone from art, someone from video, someone from content. So you get this -- you really do get a holistic from the very beginning experience. And it's super supportive to me as the author.

Well, you're about to hear a little bit of that. And at one point, the actual president of Lifeway Publishing House, Ben Mandrell, even popped in --

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to be an encouragement, which was so sweet. So here's a bit of the writers' conference.

[AUDIO PICTURE #4]

Mike Wakefield: I'm very excited. That's what it kind of sounded like after I said that. We lost a few people, so -- you know. But great discussion this morning, guys, really great discussion. I appreciate it. I want you to continue to feel that openness to -- everybody to share, because we're going to need that as we talk about titles, that kind of thing, how we title the study. So that's what we're going to move into. We'll talk about titling and then we'll talk about cover. But I'm going to turn the titling portion of this over to Tina. Tina, I'm going to let you drive this a little bit.

Tina Boesch: I just told Jennifer I had one idea of what we might do. But in this case, I actually think she's brought some incredible possibilities to the table, so I'm not sure our Post-It Note method is going to be as helpful in this case. But in addition -- so first of all, Jennifer, I want you to tell us the titles you've been thinking through, the subtitles, and also the conversations you've already had with women and their reactions to these.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Tina Boesch: And you guys also know if as we've been talking other possibilities have presented themselves to you, like, let's just make this a conversation around titling and subtitling. If you've had other thoughts, if there were things that Jennifer said that sparked an idea, feel free to bring those. We don't want to shut down any ideas and limit ourselves. But Jennifer also has some really good ideas.

Mike Wakefield: Come on in and interrupt. Come on. You can come interrupt.

Ben Mandrell: What's up?

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Hey, hey.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Humming "Hail To The Chief.")

Ben Mandrell: Hi.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's Mr. President.

Ben Mandrell: How are you guys?

Jennifer Rothschild: Glad to see you, Ben.

Ben Mandrell: Well, how are you? Are you being onery?

Jennifer Rothschild: He is.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Oh, man.

Jennifer Rothschild: He is.

Ben Mandrell: Always.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I'm just here to make these people behave.

Ben Mandrell: What are we working on?

Jennifer Rothschild: Heaven.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: We've had such great discussion on the topic of heaven.

Ben Mandrell: Oh, this is the heaven thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is the heaven thing, yes.

Ben Mandrell: Awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we've had a great morning so far. We just went through content. Now we're about to do media, video. And great team.

Ben Mandrell: Awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: Great input, great insights.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #4]

Jennifer Rothschild: Wasn't that awesome? I just really wanted you to hear that. Because my name may be on the cover of the Heaven Bible study, but there are so many names that make a project like this happen, and I am super thankful for each one of them.

So after all that collaboration and inspiration, I went back home and I got to writing. Now, buckle up, because you are about to ride along with me on my ten-month emotional and spiritual roller coaster. It was early mornings, it was late nights. It was dinner with Phil where I talked about it. You'll hear me very peaceful, you'll hear me procrastinating. And even panicking a little bit, but always persevering.

[AUDIO PICTURE #5]

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm sitting here at the lake by myself. We made candles all day yesterday. And listen to this one. (Sound of a candle burning.) That is a good wood wick right there. And it smells like coffee. I decided to name this one Coffee Break, because it's got a coffee fragrance with a little bit of vanilla cream, like a French vanilla cream. So I've got my coffee candle next to my cup of Starbucks Verona.

And I also yesterday made blue flower candles to try to create something to go with my Heaven Bible study, which is what I need to work on today. Which is why I'm doing the voice memo, because I'm procrastinating, because this is probably the hardest day of study, because I gotta get everybody to the New Earth. In 1,500 words or less, I need to figure out how to get them there.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: So what was the breakthrough, then, for you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's not really a breakthrough as much as it's been a -- I don't know how to describe it. I think it helped me that I didn't read N.T. Wright's book until this week.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then when I did, I was like, dang, the Lord's already showed me all this stuff.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, that was my goal, is to learn it hard knocks, study Scripture, try to figure it out myself --

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- instead of just be influenced by a scholar and be influenced by a book. But I've been nervous that I'm missing something. So thankfully when I read his book, I was like, oh, yes. I mean I feel good about it.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: That's awesome.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #5]

[AUDIO PICTURE #6]

Jennifer Rothschild: It's just now about 7 a.m. and I'm sitting in my office. It's quiet in the house. And I lit a candle, my blue flower candle with the wood wick. Let me -- there, you can hear it. (Sound of a candle burning.) And I thought I would just capture how I start writing days. I'm getting near the end. And I had emailed Mike, my editor and friend, a few weeks ago because I was still dealing with the after-effects of COVID, and I had pleurisy, and Phil was in a car accident. Just so many things that were making it very difficult to persevere.

And Mike in an email sent me just some encouragement, but then at the very end you can tell he spontaneously prayed this. And he put it in writing. So literally ever since he sent the prayer, I have started my writing with this prayer. So I thought I would let you hear it. And you'll hear it the way I hear it, because I have to listen to it on my computer. But then I literally pray it as I hear it. So this could be a little cluttery, audio clutter, but this is -- welcome to my world. This is how I begin with prayer.

"Lord, hear our prayer as we commit all of this and ourselves to your keeping. We are trusting you to establish the work of our hands for your glory and for Kingdom work." Yes and Amen. "We are trusting the work of your Holy Spirit in each of us to help us say what needs to be said" -- yes and Amen -- "and not say what does not need to be said. Help us know truth from error. Help us be able to clearly communicate the message that you have given." And then he prays this for me specifically. "Hold tight my precious friend Jennifer close as she finishes her writing. Protect her, heal her, comfort her, encourage her, and strengthen her. May your favor rest on her." And I agree with that prayer, Lord. I need it. "Both of us" -- and I agree with that, Lord -- "and all who surround and contribute to this project are yours and are surrendered to you." And that means all my team, all the publishing team that will touch this. "It is for your purpose and for your glory. Amen."

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #6]

[AUDIO PICTURE #7]

Jennifer Rothschild: I have no confidence.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: You feel rushed.

Jennifer Rothschild: I feel rushed, I feel pressured. I have no confidence in what I'm doing. I literally have no confidence. Because I'm trying to write emphatically about things that are highly contested and somewhat uncertain. So I have no confidence. Besides the fact I don't have a seminary degree.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Uh-huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm not that smart. I am very aware I don't know what I don't know, so I'm trying to handle it very judiciously.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I don't -- I'm not enjoying it. You want to know the honest truth? I'm ready to kick the football out of the stadium and run off the field. I am done. But I can't. So I literally have asked me all day today, I've asked meself, "Self, what else do you need to know about this?" Because I can't do it. And that's what I finally said.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: We can't cover it all. So I just went to -- okay, Peter, he wrote a letter when he was about to die.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: He was like, okay, people, in light of heaven and Christ's return, here's what you need to do.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Good. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's what I'm doing on one of the days. And then I've got -- that's my second to the last day.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: That's good. That's smart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And just let it go. (Singing) Let it go.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah. And what would Jill do with it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, she'll just clean it up.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: She just cleans it up so that it's not so awful for Mike to try to read through.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that awful -- I mean, awesome?

Dr. Phil Rothschild: It is very awesome. Way to send it off.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: That was Week 5?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: So you only have Week 6 to go?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And I'm out -- I mean, I've got the outline kind of. It's all dynamic.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm now setting up documents.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: And is it four days each week?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah, and then a Dash Living.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Right, right, right. Have you worked on the Dash Living yet?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Oh, yeah, you feel good --

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm doing them as I go.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #7]

[AUDIO PICTURE #8]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, I'm in the house by myself. Phil's coming back today. And I finally got up at 4:15 this morning because I could not sleep. Because here I am near the end of the Bible study, and once again I still am getting all tripped up over the rapture and the Second Coming and communicating it clearly and how much and little to communicate and -- anyway, I just had a 26-minute conversation with ChatGPT, and he was very helpful. And if he's correct, he was very helpful. If he's not correct, then I will end up being even more unclear in what I'm trying to write. But I have only got three more days of study to write, and I'm having so much trouble landing this plane.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #8]

[AUDIO PICTURE #9]

Jennifer Rothschild: So the first day of Week 6 is "The Already and the Not Yet." Yes, Day 2, which I'm working on right now -- I'm almost done with, I think -- is this concept of sojourning well. And can you believe I'm congested again? Who am I talking to? Myself, I guess. I don't think I have Long Covid, but I surely am not 100% yet, and I wish I could get well and feel better.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #9]

[AUDIO PICTURE #10]

Jennifer Rothschild: How has your morning been?

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Good -- busy, but good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good thing you had a day off?

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yes. I'm grateful for that. So you're almost done 90%, huh?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's just now doing the -- you know, the little exercise I'm having to do on people's last words.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Oh, yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: Just, you know, making sure all my Scriptures are accurate and my questions are clear --

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Nice.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- [indecipherable] activity. But I think I've got the emotion, and there are thoughts and -- it's -- yeah. Like if I died right now, somebody could finish it easily.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Wow. Let's hope you don't die.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't want to either, but actually, it wouldn't be a bad alternative after I studied it for six weeks.

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm not sad about that idea.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #10]

[AUDIO PICTURE #11]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. This is the day that the Lord has made, and I will rejoice and be so glad in it because I just turned in my manuscript. Can we all say hallelujah? So I am so relieved. And, you know, sometimes you have to just be done even if you don't feel finished. Trust the process, trust the True Author of all that is good, and trust my editor.

Anyway, I'm playing the song I've played the whole time. It's the Gray Havens. It's called "Far Kingdom." Oh, it just helps me visualize heaven. So I'm super thankful. It's been quite, quite the hard finish. And now I'm going to start working on messages. But I'm just so thankful that I've got the manuscripts done.

And is he good? He is good. Is he God? He is God. And am I grateful? I am grateful. So grateful. But I think I'm going to take a nap before I work some more. I'll finish the song, then I'll take a nap. Then I'll drink some coffee and then I will start to look at what I could possibly teach that I haven't already written.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #11]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, well, you heard it, I turned in the manuscript. And after I turned in the manuscript, I prepared to teach it at my home church, to the women at my home church. And I just love the privilege of teaching the women at my church. And they're kind to let me do this, because I get to work out the kinks and, you know, figure out maybe what I had left out or what doesn't make sense before we publish and before I teach it on video. So that's a super big help. So big shoutout to the homegirls, the women at Second Baptist Church in Springfield, Missouri.

All right. But before I could teach, I want you to hear how we started. It was with Kenzie. She was creating for me a prop to use as an illustration. And then after you hear that, you'll hear us moving into the filming. And so after I've taught it, we are going to film the Bible study. And you'll even get to hear the voice probably of my stud husband. So here are some of the behind the scenes of all that.

[AUDIO PICTURE #12]

Jennifer Rothschild: So Kenzie is trying to make us a box of Neapolitan ice cream for me to use for my Heaven study that I'm going to teach at church before I film it. And she's trying to cut Styrofoam to fit inside an emptied and cleaned-out carton of Neapolitan ice cream.

Kenzie Harkrider: We don't have the fancy heat knife like everything suggests --

Jennifer Rothschild: No. So what'd you do?

Kenzie Harkrider: -- on the Google. I tried to heat up a regular kitchen knife --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

Kenzie Harkrider: -- and cut through it that way. That did not work.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Kenzie Harkrider: So now I'm just kind of hacking away at it and seeing what happens.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I told you it doesn't have to look good because -- in fact, if it looks pitiful when I use it on Wednesday night when I teach, there will be some crafty woman in there going, "I could do better than that," and I will say, "Could you please do that?"

Kenzie Harkrider: Please do that. Have at it.

Jennifer Rothschild: We need you to do that.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #12]

[AUDIO PICTURE #13]

Jennifer Rothschild: Lord, I thank you so much for the opportunity. And this is your -- this is your place we're going to be talking about. This is your Word. This is about your Son. So I ask you in the name of Jesus that the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart would be acceptable to you, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer.

I want to begin with a question. 9/11. Do you remember where you were on September 11th, 2001? Yeah, right? None of us will forget that dark day. That was the day that on Flight 93, United Flight 93...

C.S. Lewis has a quote I love. He wrote -- in one of his letters to Malcolm, he was talking about joy on earth and how it helps us glimpse heaven. It's like little shafts of heavenly light. And he said this: "Joy is the serious business of heaven." Joy is a serious business of heaven. And so I have found some things for me that have brought me such joy that have helped me attach to heaven. And one of them is a blue flower. That's why you have blue flowers on your table, that's why there are blue flowers on your book cover.

The blue flower I first heard about a book by C.S. Lewis called "Surprised by Joy." He was talking about this ache for eternity and this longing for joy and how just longing for something beyond yourself is even satisfying in and of itself. And so he said, "I am a votary of the blue flower." And I was like, what is a votary? "Alexa, what is the definition of votary?" She didn't know either. Okay, votary is a very old-fashioned word, but it really means devotee, like you are devoted to something. So C.S. Lewis basically said, I am devoted to the blue flower.

So I did some research to find out what in the world he meant and learned that the blue flower is a symbol in German romantic literature representing longing and an ache for the eternal, beauty, transcendence, almost an unattainable desire for something that is so beautiful. That's how the blue flower is used in literature.

So then I became a devotee of the blue flower. And I imagine the blue flower. I imagine that heaven might even be carpeted with the blue flower, because the beauty, it just captured my imagination. That's what gods of heaven are supposed to do, my friends. They're supposed to capture us and make us think beyond today.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #13]

[AUDIO PICTURE #14]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, filming the Heaven Bible study starts tomorrow, and so we came to the lake this weekend. I just finished sending my last outline to myself and correcting it based on the transcript that Kenzie gave me, plus Mike's changes. So I told Phil I was going to come outside and sit on the deck and process everything with the cicadas. The cicadas is one of my favorite sounds. I know to some people it's annoying, but at least my little section of the New Earth, I hope we have cicadas.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #14]

[AUDIO PICTURE #15]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so now I'm just going to try to discipline myself to not keep all these seven messages in my head all at once, but to try to rest in the Lord and wait patiently on him. Trust him, trust the process, trust how he works in me. And I'll review them all again today, but then I will only look at messages one and two tomorrow. That's it. And then on Wednesday, because I'm teaching three on Wednesday night, I'll look at messages three, four, and five, and that's it. Trust the Lord that he'll help me memorize them. And then on Thursday, I will look at the last two messages and no more. All right. And then Friday morning is the B-roll.

So I think we're going to come back to this lake so I can hear the cicadas in process and be thankful. Praise the Lord with the cicadas. Every creature of our God and King, we're all going to celebrate when I'm done with this project. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #15]

[AUDIO PICTURE #16]

Dr. Phil Rothschild: Thank you for what you've been doing this week. Thank you for using this beautiful bride of mine to study Your Word and to prepare and to deliver this important message for all of us so that we can live these days in the dashes in such a way that brings glory and honor to you and gives us a great hunger and thirst for our heavenly home. Thank you for all that you're doing. Thank you for these friends that have come each night to support Jennifer. So very grateful. Thank you for this team, Lord, that is -- all in the production and writing and editing. So grateful for all of these folks. And we're grateful for what you're going to do tonight. Would you please give Jennifer excellent recall. Would you give her peace to know that you are -- you are speaking through her. It's not her; it's you, your Holy Spirit empowering her.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE #16]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. That was my stud husband there at the end. He was praying for me on set. And I was so grateful that he did that when we filmed Heaven.

So now we are at the very end of the writing, the teaching, the filming, and so I asked my friend Michael O'Brien for a song that he could write that I could use as the Heaven theme song. And you're hearing it right now. It's called "Ascending," and it's perfect. I love that he had already named it "Ascending" before we chose it to be the Heaven theme song. So that means we're always moving on, moving up, moving forward onward and upward.

Well, my friends, all these audio pictures that you have just heard, I mean, they're just all part of the process behind the scenes. And the fact that there is actually a finished video-enhanced Bible study is just proof that God was in the whole thing.

KC Wright: Amazing. Wow, God.

So you will want to check out the Heaven Bible study for sure. You can go to the Show Notes right now, 413podcast.com/Heaven, or go straight to jenniferrothschild.com/Heaven.

Also, you do not want to miss the bonus episode that posts right after this, because it's all about the blue flower. And when you see the Heaven Bible study, you'll see it has a blue flower on the cover And the blue flower is significant. So keep listening to hear more audio pictures of Blue Flower Moments. They will make you smile and probably inspire you to create your very own.

Well, friends -- I mean, y'all are more than friends, you're --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they're family.

KC Wright: -- 4:13 family. As Ann said, let's begin with the end in mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Because earth is short and heaven is long.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Get a Fresh Perspective on the Bible? With Kristi McLelland [Episode 315]

Kristi McClelland: Often as Westerners, we grow up being taught to read the Bible and to ask the question, What does this teach me about me? We immediately sort of go to that application, What am I supposed to do? And one of the things I learned while studying in Israel is for the Jewish people, as they're reading the Bible, their first question is always, What does this teach me about who the Living God is? What he's like, what it's going to mean to follow him.

And I often joke with people, you know, if you stare at yourself for too long, you'll get depressed. But if you stare at the Living God, it will transform your life.

Jennifer Rothschild: We often approach the Bible like it's an instruction manual, you know, as if it were just, like, a simple set of tips for living our best life ever. But how differently would we study the Bible if we actually approached it not to learn something, but instead to encounter someone?

Well, today's guest, author, professor, and biblical culturalist, Kristi McClelland, is going to show you how to read Scripture through the Middle Eastern lens in which the Bible was actually originally written. And the result, my people, it is going to be that you will encounter the Living God in a way that you may not have ever experienced before. The Bible is about to go from black and white to vivid color. So on your mark, get set, let's go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can truly -- I mean it -- do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. That was K.C. Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And it's two friends and one topic and zero stress in the podcast closet, as you well know. And I'm Jennifer, if we're new friends. And my goal is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life.

And I will tell you this. It's in the season for me where allergies kick in. I don't know if that happens to you, K.C., but I have all morning been clearing my throat. And before we turned on the recording, I blew my nose really loud in the little closet. But when I did, I thought, oh my gosh, I've got to show you, K.C., and I've got to tell my people. Okay, the only good thing about having allergies is these new Kleenexes I found. Or tissues.

K.C. Wright: Oh, goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I didn't use this one, K.C.

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I want you to put it on your -- smell it.

K.C. Wright: You want me to smell your Kleenex?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's clean. I just pulled it out of the box.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: Is there -- it's like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Vicks?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: It smelled like one of those oils you have around here.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does. Because it's like a tea tree eucalyptus. It's a Vicks -- you remember the brand Vicks?

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. They have these tissues that kind of have a little bit of that Vicks on it.

K.C. Wright: Now, that's taken a Kleenex to the next level.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. So you, like, breathe it in, it clears your sinuses, then you blow your nose.

Okay. But then -- like, I'm on a Vicks stage right now.

K.C. Wright: But wait, there's more.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, this I won't share with you --

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because I stick it up my nose.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, my grandpa used to have those.

Jennifer Rothschild: You've seen these?

K.C. Wright: Uh-huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, I must be new kid on the block. I had never seen them.

K.C. Wright: Yep, yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, y'all, I wish you could smell this.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: They call it an inhaler, and it's like, you know, the size of your nostril. And you just put it at the edge of your nostril and you breathe in and, oh, my gosh, it clears your sinuses. And it's such a happy feeling. So I am, like, on a Vicks, like, bandwagon right now. I'm loving this stuff.

K.C. Wright: It's all the little things.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is the little things, y'all.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So pardon me if I keep clearing my throat and sniffling. But you probably are dealing with the same thing. The only thing is, when I have this, I sound like a grownup because my voice gets a little deeper. Anyway...

I will have -- literally, I will have links to the Show Notes --

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- links on the Show Notes to my Vicks products that I am, like, in love with. Or maybe addicted to. Who knows? It doesn't matter. Don't judge.

All right, we're gonna talk with my buddy Kristi McClelland now. And you've heard her on other episodes, which I'll tell you about after we hear from Kristi. But, K.C., would you introduce Kristi.

K.C. Wright: Kristi McClelland is a professor at Williamson College and best-selling author who teaches the Bible in its historical, cultural, geographic contexts. After studying in Egypt and Israel in 2007, Kristi began leading biblical study trips to Israel. I want to go. Kristi's trips, as well as her in-person online courses and resources are incredible, and they include her popular Pearls Podcast. So this gal, I'm telling you, she loves Jesus --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, she does.

K.C. Wright: -- and she is just bringing us all along for the ride.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's go to Israel with Kristi.

K.C. Wright: Seriously. I mean, this is so good. This podcast is going to be so good. So here's Kristi and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Kristi. I already said, when me and K.C. were talking, how much I love you. You are one of my favorite people. And I think once our friends hear you, if they have not yet already, you're going to be one of their favorite people also. So let's get it moving, Kristi McClelland -- or shall I say Professor McClelland.

All right. Most of us who are listening right now -- we're in America, most of us. Okay? And that means most likely we have the tendency to read the Bible through our American lens. Okay? Because it's what we know. It's that Western cultural lens. But no matter where someone is listening right now, what they know best is, you know, what they know best, their own culture. So that means all of us see most things, including Scripture, through our own cultural lens. All right? So with that disclaimer, let's start right there. All right? Let's start with our own perspectives, our own cultural lenses. Why is it important that we read and understand the Bible in the Bible's original context and culture?

Kristi McClelland: Well, first of all, I just want to say I love you. I'm starting my day with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's the best.

Kristi McClelland: And I'm a morning person, so you're getting me at my absolute best time of the day. I wish we were together in person right now. But, man, it's such a great question. And something that I'm always telling my students at the college is all language only makes sense in context. Words make sense in context. And, you know, there are some adventures in life that we choose to go on, and honestly, Jennifer, there are great adventures in this life that find us. And an adventure found me back in 2007 when the Lord opened up the door for me to go study the Bible in Egypt and Israel.

I already had a seminary degree under my belt, many, many years of biblical teaching. I went to study abroad in the spirit of professional development. I was on staff at a church teaching Bible, I was already at the college teaching Bible, and I felt like it would be an enhancement to go to Israel and to experience the Bible in its world, in its native habitat, in its geography, in its culture, in its history, in its language.

And so I think often now how the Lord was laughing, because I thought I was going on a professional development trip and it ended up absolutely changing my life. I came home from my time studying abroad and I've been taking teams to Israel multiple times a year on biblical study trips ever since. And what I learned is that fundamental to my calling -- people call me a Bible teacher, a professor, an author. But really, if you ask me what am I as a follower of Jesus in this world, I'm called to be a bridge between the Western church and the worlds and lands of the Bible, teaching the Bible in its historical, cultural, geographic, and linguistic context.

And so I often liken it -- when we learn to take off our Western lenses and put on our Middle Eastern or Near Eastern lenses, it's sort of like when you go to the eye doctor and he puts the thing in front of you and he's clicking it and he's asking you, Is it clear? Is it clear? Is it clear? And he's clicking. And with that clarity, that's what learning the Bible in that context has done for me. It's just been a significant enhancement. And I'm always quick to say, it's not that our Western way is wrong. This isn't a wrong right; it's not a bad good. It's just who doesn't want to understand the Bible better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Kristi McClelland: And that's the invitation in it. And that was the gift that it gave me back in 2007, and it's become the gift that I feel like I'm supposed to be a harbinger of in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you are. And it is the gift that thankfully keeps on giving. And you think about it, Kristi, if God's Word is God's words -- and any significant relationship we have, we want to know that person. We want to know where they grew up and how --

Kristi McClelland: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know, their whole life. It helps us understand their words better when we know their context. Okay. So with that in mind, I'm curious then -- because I appreciate you saying it's not necessarily wrong right. I appreciate that, because sometimes I do think, oh, I'm getting it all wrong. But there is a best and better. So what are some of the stumbling blocks that trip us up when we approach reading the Bible through our default lens instead of within its cultural or historical context?

Kristi McClelland: You know, when I hear -- I don't know about a stumbling block, but I'll answer your question in this way. I feel like often as Westerners, we grow up being taught to read the Bible and to ask the question, What does this teach me about me? We immediately sort of go to that application, What am I supposed to do? And one of the things I learned while studying in Israel is for the Jewish people as they're reading the Bible, their first question is always, What does this teach me about who the Living God is? What he's like, what it's going to mean to follow him.

And I often joke with people, you know, if you stare at yourself for too long, you'll get depressed. But if you stare at the Living God, it will transform your life. It will anchor you in a hopeful, buoyant, flourishing expectation of shalom, of the Kingdom of God coming down to the ground. Heaven is coming to earth, and we're being invited to be a part of that great story. The Bible is one story best read from beginning to end. And it's not a story far from us, it's actually a story that we are in it. The Living God gave us the best and truest story ever told, and it is a story that we are in as the New Testament church.

And so for me, one of the things that has transformed my faith is changing out that initial question. Anytime I'm reading the Bible -- I tell my students all the time, the point of every story in the Bible is God. He's the point. And when we begin with that framework -- you know, we never simply read the Bible; we interact with it. It's living and active, and so are we. So whether you've ever thought about it this way, you have a relationship with your Bible. And every time we open it up, it is life with life. It's like God as our father has given us as his children the best and greatest story ever told, and he's with us as we're experiencing it, as we are interacting with it.

And I love that idea, because sometimes when we get intimidated by the Bible -- I always tell people the Bible is not meant to intimidate us. The Living God is not trying to give us something perplexing. He's showing us the truth, the most truthful story, and how we can orient and locate ourselves within it, what it's going to mean to walk with him in this life, to partner with him, and seeing the Kingdom of God come down to the ground, for heaven to come to earth, and to see him -- to be a part of that great restoration. And I just tell people all the time, when we read the Bible and lead out with the question, What does this teach me about who the Living God is? What does this teach me about who Jesus is? What does this teach me about the who the Holy Spirit is? That causes us to lift up, to sort of have this buoyant expansiveness of man. The Living God is here. And you want to know what? He is keeping his word. What Jesus said in Revelation 21, I think it's verse 7, or somewhere right in there, when he said, "Behold, I am making everything new," right now he's making everything new. You and I woke up into a world. While we slept last night, the Living God was working, making all things new. He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, girl, I wish I were in your class right now.

Kristi McClelland: Oh, my gosh.

Jennifer Rothschild: If this is what it's like when you're teaching -- I mean, I've sat under your teaching. But listen, that just lifted my spirit.

Kristi McClelland: This is what the Bible is meant -- like, when I hear people say the Bible is boring, I'm like, I honestly don't understand. We're being invited into the greatest adventure of shalom that the world has ever known or will ever see. And so that's why we read it. We don't read the Bible every day to be a discipline, we don't read the Bible every day for some practice or something like that. No, we read the Bible every day because it is reminding us of this deep and profound forever restoration that is underway. And it's coming in your life, it's coming in my life. And as we receive it, we become the agency of the Kingdom of God in the world so that everybody understands that the Living God has a table and a banquet's on the way and they're invited to it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, my friends, see, this -- my 4:13ers, this is why I told you you were going to love Kristi. This is why I love Kristi.

All right, girl. So -- okay. So you mentioned something that I want to circle back to. Well, there's two things. But first one. The Bible is not meant to be intimidating, you said. Agree. Totally agree. Yet, that is the experience that some people have, which I understand. And part of it is because there's some vernacular that might be unfamiliar to us. Okay? So, for example, the Bible uses idioms. And it also refers to customs that were very, like, normal and familiar to the original writers and the listeners. Okay? But we might, like, totally get freaked out or miss them or misunderstand if we're looking at the Bible through our own lens rather than the cultural lens. So can you give us a picture of, like, how this messes up our understanding of Scripture. Maybe even give us a couple of examples of that.

Kristi McClelland: So, you know, if language matters in context -- you know, I love to tell the story -- years and years and years ago I was on staff at the Parachurch Missions Organization and I had the chance to spend some time in India. And I was walking down the street in India, in a major city -- I mean, hundreds of thousands of people, very much metropolitan -- and I was eating a banana. It was in the morning, we were headed somewhere. And out of nowhere, a monkey came out and grabbed my banana and ran away. And I stood there on that sidewalk, in that major city in India, and I just started laughing because that has never happened to me anywhere in the United States. It's a foreign experience for me. But when you spend time in India and you understand that certain religions in India see animals in a different kind of a way, all of a sudden seeing animals in major metropolitan cities out loose on the streets, it made more sense in its context.

And so when we're reading the Bible -- you know, you're talking about a people that lived very long ago, in another part of the world, that spoke a different language, that lived as a part of a different culture than our own. I'm often saying as Westerners, we are very much Greco-Roman in our orientation. We are more like Athens and Rome than we are Jerusalem. And so it's just this beautiful enhancement -- again, it's not a right or wrong -- but to learn Jewish idioms and metaphors and things like that.

And one of the things that I really learned -- and this blessed me, Jennifer, because -- like, if I were to ask all of you out there, "Where is God?" what's the first thing that just came to your mind? A lot of times when I ask people that, and I'm in their presence, they look up. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, interesting. Right.

Kristi McClelland: So God is up there. So we think of him first in his transcendence. And, yes, the Prophet Isaiah talks about the Living God sits enthroned above the heavens and the earth, right? The heavens are his footstool. And so what I learned studying in Israel is that -- I didn't lose the transcendence, but it brought the immanence of the Living God. Yes, he's up there and out there, but he's also right here and very near. And so much of what we read about in the Bible that to us it reads as metaphor, it's theology anchored in the geography of the land. You know, when the psalms talk about the Lord is my shade at my right hand, let me tell you something. I've been in the Wilderness of Zin when it was 100-plus degrees. You would give anything for some shade at your right hand.

And so you think about these visions and pictures of heaven that we find in the Old Testament. We hear it in Micah's voice, we hear it in Isaiah's voice. What will heaven be like? It will be like each one sitting under his own vine and fig tree, and no one will make them afraid. And when you are in Israel, guess what you see a bunch of? Terraced vineyards, fig trees, vines. And from time to time, seeing people during harvest shading under them. And so you start to realize, wait a minute, the Living God does sit encircled above the heavens and the earth. But the language of the Bible, given to us by these people, the Jewish people in the Middle East, it's very much the immanence. It's the right here. So what's changed for me since studying in Israel is if you ask me, "Where is God?" my first impulse is that he's right here. And then I think about his transcendence. It almost flipped for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Kristi McClelland: But what's so encouraging, Jennifer, is we serve a God who is out there and right here. And he's out there and he's right here making everything new, and he's coming for everybody. He's coming for everybody everywhere. There is no inch of the earth where he is not to be found. There is no inch of the earth. You look at Jesus' ministry -- and that was something else that was just so transformative for me about being in Israel, is I am eating foods that Jesus would have eaten. I am sitting on the shore of the Sea of Galilee, something he did himself numerous times. I'm looking up and seeing stars in the sky that he knew during his earthly life and ministry. And so it was like going home with him. I got to know Jesus in his first century Jewish world, and that's really what it felt like.

And then you read the Gospels, Jesus in context in that first century Jewish life and world, and you see the Pharisees are constantly getting upset with him. Why? Because he's eating with tax collectors and sinners. He who is clean is eating with the unclean, and the religious leaders can't handle it. And Jesus is laughing. I truly -- I mean, I wasn't there, so I don't know, but I envision him laughing and saying, You think it's bad that I'm eating with tax collectors and sinners? It is so much worse than that. I am going out looking for them, searching for them. The Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost.

And in that first century Jewish culture, table fellowship was everything. It was one of the highest public affiliations. Who you ate with, you welcomed, embraced, and accepted. So again, if we're leading out with that first question, not what does it teach me about me, but what does this teach me about who the Living God is, who Jesus is, Jesus is the one who will eat with you. And before you get your life together, he will invite you to the table, tax collector and sinner. Oh, now you're talking about me. He's talking about all of us. Because Jesus understands that salvation and transformation happen in proximity to him. Who was a sage and rabbi of the Galilee, and Messiah of the world, in a system of Judaism that was all about clean and unclean. Clean is constantly trying to not touch something unclean because it would make clean unclean. Jesus comes on the scene, inaugurates the Kingdom of God, and he reverses that. With Jesus, when unclean touches his clean, the unclean becomes clean.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Kristi McClelland: And this is core to understanding the mission of the Kingdom of God. You and I as followers of Jesus, we are here to host the world, to be heralds and ambassadors and harbingers with an invitation that a great banquet is coming, a forever Sabbath is coming, a new city, a New Jerusalem, a new heaven, a new earth so secure, Revelation talks about her gates will not even be shut at night because there will be no one to make them afraid.

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that interesting, Kristi, that symbolism, the vine and the fig tree --

Kristi McClelland: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- they sit under it; they are not afraid. The gates, not afraid. I mean, it just shows that God is making all things new. So even today, even today, the Lord our God is a shield about us. We can live without fear.

Girl, this is so good. Okay, so let me go to something you say in Chapter 6. You say that we are meant -- and I love this. Okay, everybody, tune in. You are meant to live like rivers, not lakes. We are meant to live like rivers, not lakes. So explain what you mean by that, Kristi.

Kristi McClelland: So, again, I'm just taking imagery from the Holy Land. So when you're in Israel, you have the Sea of Galilee, and the Jordan River actually flows into it, and then it flows out of it down into the Dead Sea. And the Dead Sea is called the Dead Sea because it's dead. The ancient historian Josephus called it Lake Asphaltitus. And you're completely buoyant in it, but it is not living water.

And so you find this language in Jewish literature that living water is better than dead water. Living water is water that moves: river water, stream water. Dead water is water like cistern water, it just sits there. And we all know what happens to water when it just sits there. What does it do?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Ugh.

Kristi McClelland: Yeah. It's gross. So who would rather drink living water from a fresh spring than water out of a cistern that's been sitting there forever? And so again we're using imagery from the world of the Bible that as followers of Jesus, we want to be like living water in this world. The Kingdom of God is on the move. It is not sedentary. It does not sit and rot like a cistern full of water. No. It's on the move, it's going out. And so we are being invited to be a people on the move, flowing, flourishing, wholeness, delight, shalom, the Kingdom coming, the Kingdom moving.

And so the things that we're learning, it's meant to pass through us like a river and on to others. We don't want to just sit on our couches as the people of God and not sin, we want to be on the move bringing the Kingdom of God to the earth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kristi McClelland: And so it's that difference in a sedentary faith and a flourishing faith, in a still faith and an active faith. And I don't know about you. I want living water. I want clean, moving, crisp water, not cistern water that I have to boil seven times to make it drinkable.

And so, you know, I often ask my students -- it's funny the language that we use around spiritual things here in the West, but I use that language with them often. I'll check in with them. And they know this language, and it's, Do you feel like you're living like a river or do you feel like you're sitting like a lake right now? Do you feel like a cistern right now or do you feel like the Jordan River flowing? And it's funny because they know the language. So sometimes they'll be like, Man, I'm feeling like a cistern today, you know, just like, Pray for me. And then sometimes there's this excitement, Man, I feel like I'm moving, I'm flowing. God is, like, moving in my life, I can see it.

And so again, you know, to be a follower of Jesus in Jesus' world 2,000 years ago, to follow a rabbi, you don't just want to know what he knows, you want to be just like him. You want to be an icon of him in this world. You want to sound like him, you want to taste like him, you want to feel like him, you want to be like him in the world. And I believe that that is Christian discipleship. We are not just following Jesus to know about him, we are following Jesus so that by the transformative power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, as we are informed by the Word of God, we are becoming more and more like him in his likeness, making him known in the world and inviting everyone to the forever Sabbath banquet.

Jennifer Rothschild: So beautiful, Kristi. Because when you think about it, you know, rivers, they carry things. They carry things along with the current. They cleanse things. And that is like our Savior.

Now, I want to get technical real quick here. Because something important that you talk about in your book is the intertestamental period. Okay?

Kristi McClelland: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And some people may be like, well, what in the world is that? So tell us what in the world that is and why it matters to understanding Scripture.

Kristi McClelland: Jennifer, I love you for this question. So what I always talk about is in our Bibles, we have a little white page between Malachi, which is the last book of the Old Testament for us as Protestants, and the beginning of Matthew, the beginning of the New Testament. And so sometimes when we see that little white page between Malachi and Matthew, we kind of think that nothing happened. Well, let me tell you something. That little white page between Malachi and Matthew, it covered approximately 400 years, and it's known as the intertestamental period, or the period between the testaments, between the Old and the New Testament.

And the entire world changed during the intertestamental period. The Greeks and Alexander the Great come on the stage, it's the beginning of the Pharisees. It's the beginning of so much. The story of Hanukkah happens during the intertestamental period. And so it's filled with the people of God continuing in their journey of walking with God faithfully.

And sometimes scholars have called the intertestamental period, that 400 years, the silent years. And it's been called that because there was no writing prophet of Israel during that time after Malachi. But I don't really like that phrase, because the Living God did not go on a vacation for 400 years. Again, He who watches over Israel neither slumbers nor sleeps. Psalm 121.

And so what I like to think of, and the way I teach it to my students, is the intertestamental period was when God was getting the nursery ready for baby Jesus. You know, for those of you out there, when you find out that you're pregnant, what do you start doing?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Kristi McClelland: You start nesting, you start preparing the nursery, picking out colors, getting a crib, getting a baby seat, all the stuff you're preparing.

And I really look at human history and what was going on during that 400 years, and it seems like the Living God was getting that nursery ready because his son was getting ready to incarnate. The Living God was getting ready to take on flesh and come down himself, first as a helpless babe, later as a rabbi of Israel, and ultimately as the Messiah and Savior of the world.

And so the intertestamental period, it is fascinating. Now, I'm a history nerd, so I'm going to admit that. So for those of you out there that don't love history, I love you and I'm going to pray for you, because history is amazing. And the intertestamental history is amazing, and it really even helps to bridge for us, Jennifer, the Old Testament with the New Testament. Because, man, I just can't say it enough, the Bible is one story. It is best understood from beginning to end. Nobody buys a novel and takes it to the beach and begins on page 121 --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Kristi McClelland: -- and then goes back to page 67 and reads a paragraph.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Kristi McClelland: You see what I'm saying? The Bible is the best and truest story ever told, and so getting a sense of the intertestamental period really helps us with the continuity of the narrative. It's not like there was an Old Testament -- okay, that's over -- and then some New Testament began, some brand-new story began. No. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, all the way to the end of Revelation 22 with the New Jerusalem, the new heaven, and the new earth, so safe that her gates are not even shut at night.

Jennifer Rothschild: Kristi, one of the things I've been doing -- well, I did -- was read the Bible in 90 days. Okay? Because I have had that -- and which was a discipline, of course, at first. At first. That's the point. It's not been hard to continue to do this because it's so interesting and it's so beautiful and I am seeing God in ways I haven't seen before just in the intensity of the read. Because I'm a voracious reader and fiction reader, and, dude, I can listen to an eight-hour book in two days, because I'm listening to it while I'm doing dishes or whatever. And I thought, well, why have I not done that with Scripture? And it has come to life for me in a different way.

So what I am saying is an affirmation to it is one story, and between Malachi and Matthew it's a continuation of the story. It's not, as you said, a break in the narrative. It is a continuation, and we are ready -- I've been ready every time I get to Matthew, like, yes, come, Lord Jesus. And by the time I get to Revelation, I'm ready again. Yes, come, Lord Jesus. And even now in this conversation, oh, come, Lord Jesus, come for your people.

Okay. Listen, I'm so thankful I'm going to spend forever on the new earth with you, my sister, because I got a lot more to talk about. But we got to get to our last question here.

Kristi McClelland: Let's go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I know there's many like me -- you've just whet our appetite to really be able to see Scripture more clearly within its cultural, linguistic, historical, et cetera, context. Okay? And some people may have thought, oh, my goodness, I think I've been reading this through my Western lens and I'm missing -- I'm missing it, I'm missing a lot, and so I want to be able to do this. So, of course, you've written this book, "Rediscovering Israel" -- which will be a great companion, y'all, for this journey. But let's say they don't have the book yet and this podcast ends. Like, how can they literally and figuratively turn the page on how they begin to read Scripture through this new lens?

Kristi McClelland: Such a great question. So there's so many resources out there. Like you said, the "Rediscovering Israel" book. But let me just be -- let me be a Christmas elf and bless your entire community. So here we go, and very quickly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Kristi McClelland: There are three Bibles I would recommend, that all of the commentary is the Bible in its historical cultural context. Here we go. Number one, the NIV First Century Study Bible; number two, the NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible; and number three, the NIV Archeological Study Bible. All three of those, the maps, the commentary, the book beginnings, all along, those are three Bibles that will greatly enhance your understanding and enjoyment of the best and truest story ever told, the Bible, in its world.

Beyond that, Jennifer, let me just bless the people. I'm going to continue to be a Christmas elf one more time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, come on.

Kristi McClelland: Two authors that you need to get their books, put barbecue sauce on them and eat them, take them into your bodies and walk around. Number one, Dr. Kenneth Bailey, B-a-i-l-e-y. He was an American who taught Bible in Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and Israel for 40 years. So he was Western like us, but spent 40 years teaching the Bible in its native space. And so there's one book in particular, if you -- because he's written a bunch, and anything by him. But he wrote a book called "Jesus through Middle Eastern Eyes." Bless yourself and get yourself that book. If you want to be a blessing to others, get it for somebody else.

The other author is a female. I love supporting females. Her name is Lois Tverberg. Let me spell that last name for you because it's interesting. It's T-v-e-r-b-e-r-g. Lois Tverberg. And she is a woman who has studied in Israel and is also seeking to be that bridge bringing it back here. And so, Dr. Kenneth Bailey, Lois Tverberg, those three Bibles, and "Rediscovering Israel" with Harvest house that we just put out in October.

The good news is, Jennifer -- and this is why I love kind of giving this. You know, sometimes when people are introduced to the Bible in its historical cultural context, it's such a new concept for them that they're like, where do I even begin? But I just want to encourage everyone. There are so many faithful biblical scholars and teachers and studiers out there that have been writing books and resources on this for years, so it's out there for you. Be encouraged. A big ol' feast is ready for you to dive in at whatever level you want to. And again, the Bible's not meant to intimidate us. It's the best and truest story ever told, given to us by our Father who sits with us each and every time we open our Bibles.

K.C. Wright: Okay, all those resources she mentioned are all on the Show Notes, all for you at 413podcast.com/315. We'll have links to everything you need right there to help you get on your way to reading the Bible and growing and glowing and experiencing the living, loving God who's passionately in love with you. So let's do as Kristi said, read the Bible to see God, and not ourselves. Hello.

Jennifer Rothschild: In fact, we're also going to have a link on the Show Notes to the other episode where Kristi and I were together. It was real casual. We were sitting in the green room at a conference together and we had a conversation that I think you'll really enjoy.

Also, we will have a link to an episode with Tara Leigh Cobble. You know who she is from the Bible Recap Podcast. We talked about reading the Bible to see God. Okay? So those would be real complementary to what you've just experienced.

K.C. Wright: We've got some good stuff resources for you on The 4:13, and we are just beyond grateful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: All right, you've got a lot to do now, our people. Get to the library or the bookstore or the Show Notes and start reading.

Until next week, love The Book, live The Book. It's the only Book that the author's right with you while you're reading it. You can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: And that's a promise.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a promise, and that's a wrap. Now to inhale my Vicks.

K.C. Wright: Now, listen, when the boys were small, did you put Vicks VapoRub on their chest and on their feet?

Jennifer Rothschild: I did.

K.C. Wright: 'Cause my mama did.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I did.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can't understand why it works. But evidently it works, or at least we think it works, which makes it work.

K.C. Wright: Now, listen, Vicks VapoRub is incredible. But as you get older, you have muscle soreness?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: And I'd like to just do a little mention to my favorite balm. It's kind of like Vic's VapoRub, but it's called Tiger Balm.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love Tiger Balm.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, same kind of thing.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love Tiger Balm.

K.C. Wright: But don't shove that up your nose. No, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, don't put it in anywhere except on your skin.

K.C. Wright: That's for your knees --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: -- and anywhere your body aches. Yeah, it works.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, we'll make sure we have a link to that also, because I love that too.

K.C. Wright: It comes in a fancy bottle.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does. And it's expensive.

K.C. Wright: It is.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Read Through the Whole Bible in Just 90 Days? With Mary DeMuth [Episode 312]

Mary DeMuth: Rapid reading, you think, well, I'm not really getting much. But it gives you such a context for Scripture. We have been bred and trained to read verses out of context. And even preachers are preaching them out of context. And, you know, I know there's just not a lot of time to read the whole passage. But when you're reading significant passages and you come across Jeremiah 29:11 and you realize this is actually written to an exiled nation and this isn't a promise for -- it's good words, definitely, but it's about thriving in exile. You see that context in a way that you never would have had if you had robbed it of its context.

Jennifer Rothschild: Have you ever read the whole Bible? How about, have you read the whole Bible in just three months? Yep, 90 days. Well, according to today's guest, Mary DeMuth, you can. You can supercharge your walk with God by reading the entire Bible in just three months. So here's the thing. If your time in the Bible has been tedious, or maybe you're just longing to revitalize your faith, what you are going to hear today I guarantee will be just what you need. Yes, it is possible to read the whole Bible in 90 days, because, my people, I am doing it. And today you will learn how. You need to hear this to believe it. I did. So let's get started.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, we are so happy you're here. That was K.C. Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And we're sitting here in the podcast closet, two friends, one topic, and zero stress. And this topic today may have spiked your blood pressure and made you feel a little stressed, because you're like, Read the whole Bible in 90 days? What in the world? Well, that's what I thought.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I started doing it. And I cannot tell you, my people, how much I have loved it, how life-giving it is, how the Bible suddenly has become this one big story. Now, it does take some sacrifice, but listen, Mary's going to tell us how to do it. And the good thing is you can listen. Right? You can listen to it on any of your Bible apps.

I just thought of something, though. Speaking of listening, K.C.'s ears -- K.C.'s a very good listener now, my people --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because he has very clean ears. He's got to tell you what he bought on Amazon.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And by the way, K.C., when you tell them about this, there's going to be a lot of people who are like, "I need that," or, "My husband needs that," so we're going to put a link to it on the Show Notes. So tell our people what you told me about your ears.

K.C. Wright: First of all, I cannot believe this device is only $19.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, start with the price.

K.C. Wright: It's only $19.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. What is it?

K.C. Wright: It looks like an ink pen. And what it is is a camera with a little spoon. It's so tiny. The spoon is so tiny. And by the way, it comes with a set of spoons so you can replace. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

K.C. Wright: So what you do is you download an app. Yes, an app comes with this pen. And at the end of this pen is a camera with a spoon. And you go inside your ear. Yes, you do. It magnifies everything inside your ear. So everybody's got those little ear hairs? Well, now you're in a jungle in the Amazon. Okay? But you find wax, and you use the spoon and you scoop it out. Now, I know you kind of just threw up in your mouth, but I'm telling you, it's rad. My daughter -- my daughter can't stand it. I have to go in my own private bedroom to do this. I was doing it in the living room while I was watching TV because it is so cool. Well, first of all, you've never seen inside your ears.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Who has? Nobody.

K.C. Wright: Who has?

Jennifer Rothschild: Nobody.

K.C. Wright: And this camera works legit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is awesome.

K.C. Wright: And you go inside and you see the wax and you scoop it out and it cleans your ears. Now, you have to be careful. You cannot --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

K.C. Wright: -- shove the things too deep.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

K.C. Wright: But it works, it's $19, my ears have never felt so clean, and it's amazing. And it's my new favorite purchase from Amazon, and I want to buy them for everybody.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, I think there's a lot of people who need them. I know some people who need them, because I think, Can you not hear or are you just not listening? And this would just answer that question.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But as you said, you can't shove it in. And we're going to say very clearly, we are not promoting a product that will cause hearing loss. Okay, people?

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you got to be responsible. Because I know there are doctors who say don't even use Q-tips. Yes, of course, be responsible.

But that is very fun, K.C.

K.C. Wright: The spoon is so tiny. And, of course, on the camera it looks like it's huge.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

K.C. Wright: But when you pull out just the little thing, the little piece of wax -- sorry, it's disgusting, but we all have it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we do.

K.C. Wright: When you pull it out, you're like, oh, my gosh, seriously? It's so tiny, you can hardly see it. But with the camera, it's huge.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's crazy.

K.C. Wright: But my ears have never felt so clean. Actually, my ears feel like they're born again. My ear holes are saved because of my new device.

Jennifer Rothschild: They have been cleansed -- cleansed and sanctified. Okay. Well, there you go. So now -- you guys are getting two very practical tips today. You're learning about ear spoons with apps and how to read the Bible in 90 days, and both will make you clean.

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's introduce Mary DeMuth.

K.C. Wright: Mary DeMuth is a speaker, podcaster, author of 50 books, fiction and non-fiction, including her latest book, "90-Day Bible Reading Challenge." As an avid Bible reader, she has guided many people into the Scriptures to supercharge their faith. Through God's healing, Mary has overcome a difficult past to become an authentic example of what it means to live a brand-new story. She loves to help others re-story their lives through the books she writes. Mary lives in Texas with her husband of 33 years and is a mom to three adult children.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Mary. I've already bragged about you as me and K.C. were talking. You're one of our favorite guests, so I'm glad you're back with us. But I've got to start with this question. It's a big question to me. Like, what in the world inspired you? Like, why in the world did you decide to read the entire Bible, all of it, in just three months? Okay, you got to explain this to us.

Mary DeMuth: You know, I had a friend who was doing it -- and it was about five years ago -- and I just thought that sounded interesting. And so the first time I did it, I weirdly did it in two months, which is even more crazy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Woah.

Mary DeMuth: And it became one of the most profound spiritual practices that I have practiced in my Christian life. It changed my life. And so from that point on, once or twice a year, sometimes more, I will rapid read the Bible. And because it has changed me so much -- and, you know, it takes a lot after you've walked with Christ for a long time to have something really dynamic quickly change you. I just kept doing it and I wanted it for my friends and my readers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Well, literally, when I saw the book, I was like, what is she thinking? Because I know that not only while you're doing this rapid reading, you're still also studying and, you know, you're having devotional time with the Lord. So let's just, though, be very specific about this -- okay? -- this 90-day challenge. So if someone were to do it, and, like, when you do it, how much time a day does it take? And do you do it in one sitting?

Mary DeMuth: You know, there's a lot of different ways to go about it. I have created the book in three sittings, so if one sitting makes you stressed, you can do it in three. But it usually takes me an hour a day. I'm a fairly rapid reader. But what I did in order to find the time -- because, you know, we all have plates that are full -- I had to take the mashed potatoes off my plate in order to be able to read the Bible that much and that long. And so I stopped doom scrolling on social media, which was lovely. So I got rid of one evil and replaced it with something really good.

But another thing that I've encouraged people to do is not to be legalistic about it. Because there were days and there definitely have been days where I just don't have the time in the day, and so I will listen to that section of Scripture. And sometimes if I'm really running late, I will listen to it on one and a half speed or 2.0 speed. So you can get it done. You may have to put something down, like doom scrolling, in order to do it, but it is so worth it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that's what I was going to ask you, is when you added this additional time, because you're a busy lady, what did you have to forego? So doom scrolling. And definitely that is, like, not even a tradeoff, right? That's like -- yeah, that's like stop eating junk food and eat something healthy. Is there anything else that you have chosen to -- when you're doing this, to structure your day differently or forego in order to pull this off?

Mary DeMuth: I tend to do better -- and again, everyone's different. We're all wired differently. But I tend to do better when I start all my disciplines in the morning, and so that would be my first thing. And I'm kind of an all-or-nothing person, and so I would just read all the passages at once. But you're definitely welcome to read them in three chunks. The last chunk is really small. It's like one or two psalms. The first two are pretty large chunks of Scripture.

For instance, I'll tell you in the book -- and also then there's a little bit to read for each one, where my editor told me she wanted something new and surprising on every day. So I basically had to write a commentary on the whole Bible. But for instance, day 24 is 2 Samuel 22 through 24 and then 1 Kings 1 through 10, and Psalm 34. It's very doable, and it's surprising how much you can cover in such a short period of time.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so, you know, the Bible says about itself that it is living and active. So even if you are doing rapid reading through Scripture -- number one, let me just say this. It would be hard for me not to stop and go, well, what does that mean?

Mary DeMuth: Yes. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay? So I want to know how you resist that temptation. And then secondly, how does the livingness, the life, the sheer aliveness of Scripture bring you life even when you're rapid reading? Okay? So your speed bump of stopping to search more, how do you manage that, and then how is it giving you life?

Mary DeMuth: The speed bump that I've managed -- and I don't know that my husband actually could do this rapid read because he's such a studier. And I am too, but he's more. So he would stop at, like, "It in the beginning," and he would be like, what does that mean?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Mary DeMuth: So it would be -- it'd take him forever.

So what I have done is I have a little pad of paper next to my bed, or I'll pick up my journal, and if I have a conundrum or something that I'd like to further explore, I just write it down so that I can come back to it. Or if there's a theme, I'm like, oh, my goodness, this connects to that, connects to this -- which is what's the beauty of rapid reading -- I'll write that down and come back to it.

In terms of the inspiration, what it has done for me -- you know, rapid reading, you think, well, I'm not really getting much. But it gives you such a context for Scripture. We have been bred and trained to read verses out of context. And even preachers are preaching them out of context. And, you know, I know there's just not a lot of time to read the whole passage, but when you're reading significant passages and you come across Jeremiah 29:11 and you realize this is actually written to an exiled nation and this isn't a promise for -- it's good words, definitely, but it's about thriving in exile. You see that context in a way that you never would have had if you had robbed it of its context.

Jennifer Rothschild: So is that one of the surprises that came to you, is recognizing the startling -- how often we maybe misapply -- with good intentions, misapply because of context?

Mary DeMuth: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what else would have surprised you?

Mary DeMuth: Yes, so that definitely surprised me. And also just the whole story of Scripture and being able to make those hyperlinks, as the Bible Project calls it, from Old to New Testament and to see -- even though written in different languages, you begin to see patterns. And, you know, you think about the cycle of judges and you see this -- everything's going well, then they sin, they fall into sin, there's consequences. They cry out to God, God rescues them, and they're okay again. And then they just keep doing this cycle over and over again. Well, we see that throughout the whole Bible. The cycle of judges is the cycle of humanity. And really the whole story of Scripture revolves around the cycle of judges. And these are just some of the things that you begin to pick up when you have more Scripture in your head.

And then also just this beautiful part of because you're spending more time in the Bible that day, it permeates more of your life. And for me, I would think about it more because I was spending more time there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, that leads to what I was going to ask you, because I thought -- you know, we've talked a little bit about, you know, intellectually the stimulation, just for your own learning how it slips pieces into context. But that was what I was going to ask you. Spiritually has it changed you? Like, have you seen a difference in just your demeanor, maybe some sins you might struggle with, or things that -- has God used this kind of rapid read even helping in those areas?

Mary DeMuth: Most definitely, because I have more Scripture in me and more ability to -- I don't know how the correlation is, but just more of an ability to hear the Holy Spirit because you've just spent a long time with Spirit-inspired words.

And then I would say also just this underlying confidence that comes as one -- and this may be unique to me, but -- or to people who teach the Bible. But this underlying confidence of handling the Word of God and having so much more assurance. Like, I know the reality of God in a way that I hadn't when I wasn't doing this practice. You see this redemptive arc throughout Scripture and you see this relentless God who at first -- you know, if you sometimes, you know, hear some sermons that kind of portrays God as angry in the Old Testament and really cool and nice in the New Testament. But this last rapid read through through the Old Testament, I almost wanted to shake God and say, "Would you quit giving Israel second chances." Then I'd be like, oh, wait, I really like second chances and I sin too. But he was so relentless in their pursuit.

And so on a deeper level, there was this knowledge of the greatness of God, the goodness of God, his pursuit of his people, the rescue of God, his ability to reach down from the heavens and pull us up out of the pits of our own making. And all of this just -- it brought me -- I know that there are a lot of people right now deconstructing their faith. But I would challenge them to read the Bible in 90 days with an open mind and not with a mindset of I'm going to tear this down and pull it all apart, but with a mindset of I'm going to receive this story and ask God to speak to me through it. I think it'll change your life.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, it reminds me, what you're describing, Tara Leigh Cobble has talked about -- with the Bible Recap, about teaching the Bible for years without even reading the Bible through, and how when she did, it just made God more beautiful to her. And so I love how you're describing you really saw the character of God even as you're doing rapid reads.

Okay, so here's the question, Mary. Because some of us listening, like Tara Leigh, never read the Bible all the way through ever, and so it sounds daunting to think of doing it in 90 days. So I would be curious if you think maybe that's an easier way to pursue reading Scripture from front to back for the first time, and then how, if we've never done it before? It takes discipline, I assume. Is that what it takes? And how do we develop that? How do we start?

Mary DeMuth: I actually -- that's why I wrote the book, Because I feel like if you haven't read the whole Bible, reading it in a year can weirdly be a slog.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's intimidating.

Mary DeMuth: Yes. And, like, when you're in the Book of James, you're not going to remember the Book of Leviticus because it was so far away. It was months and months ago. And so I think if you haven't ever read the Bible through, this is a really good practice.

And in terms of the discipline, I would say discipline begats discipline. And for this, I'll go to working out. When I'm working out and I'm in that good mode, it's a muscle, it's a muscle that I'm developing. And the more I do it, the more I enjoy it, and the more it encourages me to keep going.

But I was sick this last month, so there was pretty much a month off of working out. And I ran again this morning and I felt like a like a slug, like I was running through mud. Because when you're out of practice, it's hard to jump back in. It's like a muscle. And so I would say in this, I think you're going to be surprised after day five -- the first five days you're like, oh, my gosh, because you're not used to it. But once you get in the habit of it, it begets a good habit. And I wouldn't be surprised that after the 90 days, that you will want to do this again. Probably not immediately, because it is hard, but eventually again. Or it may also flood into your daily time with God and maybe even open up more space and more questions and more ability to understand the context of what you're reading.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love that -- you're right, discipline does beget discipline. And eventually it does show up as delight, which is what you described, which will fuel the discipline. So we just got to stick with it. We are not of those who shrink back. So that's a good word.

And I'm super appreciative, Mary, that you created the resource, because that does kind of unintimidate the process because we have a guide. And I'm glad your editor had you kind of give us a commentary on the whole Bible. Just a small little thing. Just a small little thing. But it does, it helps us understand and even be able to apply some. So we are highly recommending this book. What an excellent, unintimidating way to just hit it. And it's a challenge, but we are up for the challenge.

I'm going to get to the last question, though. And I think I know your answer, but I want it to be very clear to us. Okay, why? Why should we try this 90-day reading challenge? Why should we do it? And if we do it, what can we expect?

Mary DeMuth: We should do it because we need to know that the God of the universe loves us, and you can't help but understand that in the context of Scripture. And also, because as Christ followers we love him so much, and if we love him we will want to get to know him, and to know him is to hear his voice, and his voice rings loud in Scripture. And so that's my why at least.

And I'm also going to -- I'm going to help people too. So I believe that there is power in reading Scripture in community. And the church of old, that's what they did. They didn't have a Bible in their hands. They looked at pictures of Jesus doing things on stained glass and they heard sermons and homilies, but they didn't have a Bible in their hands, but they experienced Scripture together. And so in January, on January 1st I'm going to start a group of people, whoever. It's absolutely free. And people can go to marydemuth.com/Bible to sign up. We've got about 300 now. I'm hoping to maybe have 500. But we're going to go through the Bible together and I'm going to add to it. And I'm also going to email them every day for 90 days to encourage them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Mary DeMuth: And every email also has a piece of art in it that depicts what they read that day. So it's going to be a really fun process. It's a trial and error. I've never done this before quite like this in a structured way with other people, but I'm really excited about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love that. And let me pause here because -- let's say someone is hearing this podcast later and the January 1st event has already started. Do you know if it's ever green? I know you said trial and error, so you may not even know the answer. But can they go back and find it?

Mary DeMuth: Yes. And the Facebook group is called "The Nineties" --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love it.

Mary DeMuth: -- N-i-n-e-t-i-e-s, so they can always find it there. And then I will -- once those 90 days are up -- or actually, I'm probably going to set it up in my email thing that if they sign up, then they'll get those 90 days as emails --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good.

Mary DeMuth: -- without having to wait.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good. Because I know someone listening and they're like, oh, no, but I'm rewinding and listening to older podcasts and I missed it.

Mary DeMuth: Yes, of course.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you're saying they did not miss it. They can go -- and we'll have links to the Facebook page of The Nineties and to your website so that they can get connected to that.

Mary DeMuth: Awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then, Mary, when they do that -- because I know 413ers. We're going to do this. It's such a good practice. What can we expect? How might we be different 90 days from now if we begin this challenge?

Mary DeMuth: Well, as I mentioned before about confidence, I don't think we can -- I can overemphasize that enough. But a confidence of knowing I am a Christ follower who read through the whole Bible and now I have these connections and understand the story of God more than I ever have in my entire life. So that is going to happen, this understanding and this confidence.

But then I also believe that the Holy Spirit loves to speak through the Word of God. And those conundrums and stresses that you've been dealing with, they will be addressed in a winsome, sweet, amazing way that only God can do.

K.C. Wright: Read the Word. Trust the Word. Live the Word. You will hear God's voice and experience the confidence and comfort that comes from his living and active Word. So will you take up the 90-day challenge? We're asking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: We will link you to Mary's website and Facebook group so you can. And we will also link you to her book on the Show Notes. Everything you need will be at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/312. And we're giving one of her books away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yay.

K.C. Wright: You can go to Jennifer's Instagram to register to win.

So let's be people of the Word. You know, Jennifer, I'm serious, we need to be people of the Word. Because the Bible says that even in the last days, even the elect will be deceived. And no one's going to get deceived in my tribe on my watch.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Amen.

K.C. Wright: That's why we got to be grounded and anchored and make the Word of God the final authority in our lives. And I don't know a better way to do it than being committed for 90 days and reading it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you cannot recognize a lie if you don't know the truth, so -- and that's how you're deceived. So, yeah.

You know, she also mentioned, by the way, being busy and listening to the Scripture. I mentioned that earlier. So I do want to recommend in a very practical sense the Dwell Bible app. That's what I use. It's, like, my go-to, and I love it. So Gregory from South Africa is the one who reads to me. You can have many different voices read to you. And I always have the most beautiful piano in the background while it's being read. So you can find Dwell also on the Show Notes, or you can go straight to 413podcast.com/Dwell to get a sweet deal to sign up for Dwell.

All right, our friends, we are done for today. So be in the Word. You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: Did we really talk about earwax?

Jennifer Rothschild: You did. You did.

K.C. Wright: Okay, I did. I did.

Jennifer Rothschild: But listen, there are some people getting it right now.

Read the Bible before you buy your earwax cleaners, people. Read the Bible first.