4:13 Podcast: Can I Develop a Prayer Habit? With Jennifer Tucker [Episode 370]

Jennifer Tucker: When we meditate on Scripture, we are focusing -- and the mindfulness element of it is we're focusing on the present moment. Not the future, not the past, but right here, right now. And as Christians, we're focusing on God's presence with us in this present moment.

So it deepens our awareness of him with us in every moment. And that awareness has changed my life in so many ways just as I walk through the day knowing he's right there with me through it all. And reminding your mind and reminding your soul of that truth, it can make a significant impact.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you ever notice that even when your body is not moving, your mind is racing? Worry, to-do lists, and life's clutter just keep us from the stillness that we long for. And let's be honest, prayer can feel nearly impossible. But you can be present in prayer and you can develop a prayer habit.

Today's guest, author Jennifer Tucker, is going to show you how to still your soul, listen to God through His Word, and renew your mind through the practice of meditation. This is a lovely, life-giving, and intensely practical conversation, so let's get it going.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, happy October, our people. I'm Jennifer and I'm just here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life along with me and KC. It's true, it's through Christ, his strength in us, that we can do all things. And most importantly, that we can be who he has created us and called us to be.

So I hope you've had a good week. Maybe the leaves are starting to change where you are. I'm out and about with Fresh Grounded Faith. And so if you haven't made your plans yet, you still have time. End of October I'm going to be in Lubbock, Texas, and so I would love for you to come. Or November 7th and 8th in Springfield, Missouri, for the very last grand finale.

KC Wright: Wow. Drum roll, please.

Jennifer Rothschild: The theme, KC, for our final Fresh Grounded Faith is Devoted. And I'm basing it on Acts 2:42, which says -- talking about the early church, that they devoted themselves to the teaching of the Apostles --

KC Wright: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- which is the Word, you know -- to fellowship and the breaking of bread and to prayer. And that's what we're going to talk about, what it looks like to be devoted, to live devoted to God and each other. So anyway, come on to Springfield, Missouri, in November. If you can make some plans, we'd love to have you there. It's a busy fall. Pumpkin Lattes, they're out. Starbucks, thank you very much.

Y'all -- now, I don't know if you remember this. Some of you stay till the very end and you listen to KC and me. We have mindless chatter usually at the end. Some of you have nothing better to do, so you listen to our mindless chatter. And so KC brought up something last week. And we did not have time to tell the story, so I said we would tell you this week.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: What a great tease. Good job. Good job.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So this was several years ago. KC, I don't even know if we had started the podcast yet.

KC Wright: We had not.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't think we had. But, you know, we've been friends for years, me and KC.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We knew each other because he did radio here in town and he invited me a couple of times to come in and kind of do a little co-hosting with him, and so that's how we became friends early on before the podcast. So we hadn't even started the podcast yet. This was back in the day when Twitter was Twitter --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and they had just started that new video live feed called Periscope.

KC Wright: Brand-new -- we don't know what happened to Periscope, but it was a thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was a thing.

KC Wright: And you were into it, and Michael O'Brien was into it --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, we were into it.

KC Wright: -- and I was into it.

Jennifer Rothschild: We were into it.

And so what happened is you would be notified when anyone you followed was live on Periscope.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So evidently, I accidentally went live on Periscope and didn't know it. And I don't know if it was in my pocket, my phone was in pocket, or in my hand --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but KC gets notified "Jennifer is live on Periscope. Would you like to tune in?" He tunes in. Well, you realize very quickly I did not mean to be live, and so --

KC Wright: No -- yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Jennifer Rothschild: I remember specifically what I was talking about. One, I was in my laundry room and I was complaining about someone or something.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. That's bad enough. Then I walk into the bedroom where Phil is laying in bed with his shirt off. And I had been doing Pilates and I was getting ready for bed. So I, like, got on my nightshirt and I realized, oh, my thighs -- I'm talking about this, y'all.

KC Wright: Live on the internet.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my thigh -- "Phil, look at my leg. My thighs. Look, I've got a muscle there I didn't used to" -- and I'm going on and on. Okay. So, KC, that's what's happening.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what's happening with you while this is going on?

KC Wright: What's happening with me is -- I don't live far from the Rothschilds. And Val, your personal assistant -- okay? -- she's blowing up my phone and we're texting back and forth. And I have to save the day. I have to go to the Rothschilds now and get them off the world wide web before something happens as we're broadcasting live from their bedroom.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was terrible.

KC Wright: Thankfully one of you answered the phone and shut the dad-gum thing off.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Phil -- because everybody's texting us. Neither of us are answering the phone because we're too busy talking about my thighs. Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Oh, it's one of the greatest memories. Oh, thank God, God spared us and protected us. But anyway, I just said with these Meta glasses, you need to be careful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, believe me.

KC Wright: And then you got this robot with the camera. I mean, we could see some things potentially happening, and I have to protect the Rothschilds.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Thank you. Jennifer needs to just slow down. Slow down.

And by the way, I just want you to know, I will not be any longer talking about my thighs and how muscular they are, because they're not muscular anymore. I may be talking about the flab, but I will not be talking about how sexy they are, because they're not. All right. There you go. Now, that was a lot of TMI, our dear ones.

KC Wright: Oh, man. Someone's laughing so hard, they can barely breathe right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you know now why you need to stay till the very end of the podcast for our mindless chatter.

KC Wright: And Periscope, we miss you. Where are you, Periscope? I guess we don't need it because we have Facebook Live and Instagram Live.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we got everything else.

KC Wright: We have everything else.

Jennifer Rothschild: And this is why, our people, we need to pray. We just need to pray.

Okay. Y'all, this lady, Jennifer Tucker -- I think she even goes by Jenn. Anyway, halfway through the conversation, I'm like, man, she reminds me so much of Ann Voskamp. I have learned later, she worked with Ann. She was her artist for a long time, a graphic designer.

KC Wright: What? Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you'll hear that in her voice. So let's introduce Jenn Tucker.

KC Wright: Jennifer Tucker is a best-selling author, artist, graphic designer, wife, mother, grandmother, and devoted follower of Jesus. She shares her heart and art online at littlehousestudio.net.

Now, let's settle in and listen to Jennifer times two, Jenn and Jenn.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Jennifer. I like talking to another Jennifer. That's kind of fun.

Jennifer Tucker: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're going to start with meditation because that's what your new book is dealing with. And so I want to start right there, and from the very onset I want to define it. Like, what is meditation? What is Christian meditation? Because sometimes all we're familiar with is, like, Eastern forms of meditation. So if Christian meditation is different, how is it different from Eastern forms of meditation?

Jennifer Tucker: Absolutely. And I think that's a great place to start, because that leads the foundation for all of it.

So, yeah, a lot of people, like you said, when they think of meditation, they're like, oh, no, we can't do that, that's not biblical, that's what, you know, the Eastern religious practices do. And it's true that meditation is used in lots of different religions all around the world, and there are many different forms of meditation. A lot of the Eastern religious practices and other forms of meditation that we're a little leery of, those are focused on clearing the mind of all thought, of trying to find some form of peace from within yourself or trying to reach some state of nirvana in your mind, kind of controlling your mind in those ways.

But Christian meditation is different. Because although -- meditation in general, it's just the practice of focusing your mind and focusing your thoughts and thinking about your thoughts. But for Christians, it's extremely biblical to meditate, but our focus when we meditate is on God's Word and it's on his presence with us. We're not trying to find some kind of peace within ourself or find the answers to all through the universe within us, we are acknowledging that our source of peace is in Christ and in his presence with us in this present moment.

And our focus in times of meditation is on Scripture. So Christian meditation is simply Scripture meditation. And all throughout Scripture, God actually reminds us to meditate on His Word day and night. So we're instructed to do this practice. And I think some of us get leery of it, and maybe we think, oh, no, I can't do that because -- but honestly, I think it's all about what is the focus of our meditation? What are we doing as we meditate?

And for a Christian, it's not about emptying our mind, but rather turning our mind to Christ. It's not about, you know, emptying all of our thoughts, but just shifting our thoughts away from, like, our ruminations of the past or worries about the future and focusing those thoughts, learning how to shift those thoughts toward the truth of God's Word and the presence of God with us right here and now. And so that to me is what separates Christian meditation from all the other forms of meditation that you might see.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, absolutely. It's so distinct, Jenn, because you're right, just that contrast between an emptying and a filling, a finding peace within, a receiving peace from the Word. I mean, that's just very distinctly different. And as I'm listening to you -- and even the sound of your voice, by the way, it's such an inviting, peaceful voice the Lord has given you.

I read a little bit about you, and I know you or your family has struggled with mental health issues. And as I hear you explaining meditation, I can tell you're not just talking about something clinically that you have observed and learned.

Jennifer Tucker: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: It feels like something you've experienced. I'm wondering how that has impacted mental health situations in your life.

Jennifer Tucker: Oh, absolutely. Well, that's where -- both of my books, first "Breath As Prayer" and then "Present In Prayer," they came from this now nearly seven-year-long journey that we've had that started with my daughter, who was 13 at the time, when she began having very severe panic attacks and anxiety became -- and anxiety disorders became just our daily life.

And so in walking with her through her journey trying to find healing and peace -- and it's been a long, long, long journey and very difficult journey of learning what mental health really is and learning that intersection between faith and mental health, which we don't talk about enough. We don't talk about enough how important it is for -- especially our children who might be struggling with their mental health, to know that, you know, it's not that you don't have enough faith, it's not that you're not praying enough or hard enough or the right way, that -- you know what? We have a brain that is an organ just like any other part of our body, and some of our brains are more prone to illness or dysfunction or struggling in different ways.

So as I walked with my daughter through her journey, I had to get real honest with myself about my own anxiety. So I have, for as long as I can remember, struggled with anxiety and also depression. But I kind of shoved it aside and pushed it away because I didn't want that to be a label for me. Because for me for me for a long time, that did equate with I'm not praying enough or I don't trust God enough or I'm not doing something right as a Christian or I shouldn't be struggling with this. And so -- but I had to get real honest about my own mental health struggles so that I could more effectively be a help and support to my daughter as she walked through her own different but very much just as important journey as well.

And so, yeah, I think in helping her through that, I found there just wasn't a lot of resources and help that overlapped with, okay, what we were hearing from psychiatrists and therapists and stuff about supporting her brain and her body and her mental health, versus the spiritual side and how do we support your soul and your faith? And where does that overlap? And why does it feel like it conflicts when it really -- it all works together because our brain and our body and our soul and our mind and our heart are all completely interconnected because that's the way God designed us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Tucker: He made us so deeply interconnected, so you can't separate the body from the brain, from the mind, from the soul. It all works together, and that's intentional on God's part. And so when something is impacting our mental health, we're going to have physical symptoms. Or when something's affecting us physically, we might have mental health symptoms. Our brain might have symptoms.

So anyway, it's been a journey to learn what are some practices. And it's been a really, for me, uncovering. Like, first it was breath prayer, how I can connect the deep breathing that really helped calm my body in times of high anxiety with a simple prayer that turned my mind to truth in God's Word, especially in times of crisis, like when my daughter was hospitalized and I was so overcome with anxiety and uncertainty and fear, this deep fear, and I had nothing -- no words left in me. But God reminded me, Psalm 23, the Lord is my Shepherd, I have all that I need. And for those weeks that she was in the hospital, I would walk the hallways just breathing and praying those words. That's the only prayer I said. But it kept me tethered to him in those times of high anxiety, in those times of crisis.

And then as we moved forward in our journey, the circumstances changed, but they didn't get easier. And things didn't -- there wasn't this miracle healing and there wasn't this amazing recovery. It was really hard. And so the long-term process of that, I needed more than just a tether or a lifeline in times of crisis. I needed a practice that would root me in His Word, like keep me. Because the winds kept -- winds of anxiety kept coming, those storms kept railing down, and I'm like, I have got to have something deeper. And that's where my -- my therapist first recommended meditation.

And so when I started studying meditation and learning how to practice meditation, I was like, this is -- if I can meditate on God's Word as I'm meditating and learning how to think about my thoughts and how to -- it's like Scripture says, take your thoughts captive. That's exactly what you're doing when you're meditating. Like, I'm not looking at my thoughts as a way to judge myself or shame myself for, oh, I have these negative thoughts or I'm worried about these things, no. Just give them to God. Just recognize they're there, their presence, but not give them the power to take over my whole body and my whole -- how I act, but to give myself time to sit in the silence, focus on what are my thoughts and what's running through my head, and how can I give these to God and let him turn my thoughts towards something -- toward whatever is true and whatever is honorable, whatever is pure, whatever is right, and all those things that Philippians 4:8 tells us to think about. It takes practice, though. It's not something that comes naturally. I am a natural worrier, a natural ruminator.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're good at that?

Jennifer Tucker: Oh, I am an expert in ruminations. I mean, I can worry out the wazoo, no problem. It has taken practice, and meditation -- intentional times of meditation --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Jennifer Tucker: -- meditating on Scripture have helped me to kind of -- and there is science behind it too, the rewiring of those neural pathways creating new paths in our brain where maybe when I used to get anxious, I would immediately spiral into panic and worry and excessive overthinking or -- now in times of when I feel that anxiety, which is very physical symptoms at the beginning, or I can feel my mind starting to spiral, for me now it's just a prompt to, oh, I need to shift my thinking.

What's a truth I can cling to right now and focus my thought on? What's a prayer I can say right now to turn my thoughts towards something that will allow my body to calm down, and then my brain can think a little more clearly. And then I can move forward with greater peace because I'm reminding my heart and my soul the truth that I already know, but that it's easy to forget in times of stress, that God is with me and he's not leaving me. He's right here right now with me in this and in every moment, and so I don't have to be afraid and I don't have to worry because he's right here. And he's not going to leave me and he's holding me.

And sometimes I have to remind myself over and over and over again of these truths, because the circumstances of life and the pressures of the world and the stress around me are going to try to get me off track and to forget that. And that's just human. We all have that. Like, that's not -- again, I've learned how to not -- I used to carry a lot of shame about that and about why do I worry so much? Why do I -- you know, why can't I just get over this? Well, you know what? I may not get over it, but I'm not alone in it.

And that's what's made the biggest difference. And it's kind of released the power that it had over me when I let go of that shame that I carried about having anxiety or about struggling with depression, just realizing, okay, this is how it is. How can I move forward hand in hand with Jesus through this?

And so, yeah, it's been a very personal journey for me, and these practices are things that I daily cling to to help me remain focused on him. And I can tell when I haven't meditated on His Word or prayed over time. Like, it can -- it's really easy for me to slide right back into the old ruminations and worries. And so it's a consistent practice that takes time. But over time, it does become easier and it becomes more automatic to turn to --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's a habit. It can become a habit.

Jennifer Tucker: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, when you think about it, I mean, you're a good worrier. Like, you're a natural --

Jennifer Tucker: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- like, you can fall back into that habit so quickly.

Jennifer Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: You said so many things here, Jennifer, that are really powerful and good, and I want to make sure our 4:13ers heard it.

There is no shame. We would not have shame if we were born with a kidney that didn't function as well. We wouldn't be ashamed of that. So if our brains perhaps don't -- you know, maybe that's where we have some vulnerabilities and, therefore, it manifests some mental health issues. There's no shame there, just like there's no shame if you were born with a kidney problem or a weak heart. So first of all, I'm so grateful you pulled that out. And we cannot say it enough to the body of Christ. Shame off you. Okay? That's one thing.

Secondly, you mentioned neural pathways. And a few weeks ago, Kyle Idleman was on and he was talking about neural pathways. And so I just kind of want to go there because I think there's something we cannot hear enough also, and it's these benefits that you were kind of beginning to touch on, the benefits of meditations. Obviously they're not just spiritual, though it does remind you of God's presence. But they're mental and physical too. So kind of go to what some of those physical benefits of meditation are, and the mental benefits.

Jennifer Tucker: Absolutely. Yeah. Actually, I've researched a ton -- there's so many scientific studies that have studied the benefits, not necessarily Christian meditation, but just meditation in general. Which I believe Christian meditation has even more benefits because we're --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Life.

Jennifer Tucker: -- you know, bringing Christ into it. Exactly. But it has been shown to reduce stress, to improve overall sleep, to give you a greater ability to cope with pain. It reduces symptoms of anxiety and depression. And I can attest to that. It can actually decrease blood pressure and lower the resting heart rate, and so that's going to help you feel less anxious.

A lot of times we're anxious, our breathing increases and our heart rate increases, so meditating and that slowing down and being still really helps to calm all of that. It helps you have fewer negative thoughts because you're learning how to think about your thoughts and not giving them all that power and not just automatically spiraling. It does rewire the brain. It carves those new neural pathways.

It's been shown -- this study is so amazing -- it changes the actual literal structure of your physical brain as it's related to emotional regulation. So there's parts of the brain that they've identified that actually change structure as you practice over time if you practice meditation. Which I'm like, that is just the scientific --

Jennifer Rothschild: It's brilliant.

Jennifer Tucker: -- representation of the Holy Spirit's transforming power, how he transforms us by changing the way that we think, you know, like, the whole -- how Scripture tells us that's how he transforms us, and it's not just --

Jennifer Rothschild: A renewing of our mind.

Jennifer Tucker: Absolutely. And it's an actual physical transformation, not just -- so I think that's -- that was amazing to me. But it can improve your attention span, your memory, your patience, and distress tolerance. It also has been shown to increase imagination and creativity, so it kind of frees your mind to kind of be more imaginative.

But spiritually -- I mean, it helps the Word of God take root in your heart and mind. As you meditate on Scripture, you're going to be memorizing that Scripture and hiding it in your heart, like psalm tells us -- recommends us to do, so that then in times of stress you're going to have all this Scripture down in your heart that the Holy Spirit is going to bring up right when you need it, just like he did for me in the hospital with Psalm 23. I can only explain it by the Holy Spirit, because I was too overcome with everything else. But I know he reminded me of that truth because I had tucked that away over and over and over again, and so...

Anyway, also it can increase compassion, both towards yourself and toward others. So a big part of it is to be compassionate toward yourself. I think a lot of times we miss that part of it, of just being kind to yourself and kind to your mind. It can deepen your awareness of the presence of God, because we're literally -- when we meditate on Scripture, we are focusing -- and the mindfulness element of it is we're focusing on the present moment. Not the future, not the past, but right here, right now.

And as Christians, we're focusing on God's presence with us in this present moment. So it deepens our awareness of him with us in every moment. And that awareness has changed my life in so many ways just as I walk through the day, knowing he's right there with me through it all. And reminding your mind and reminding your soul of that truth is -- it can make a significant impact. It tunes your heart to hear that still small voice of the Holy Spirit.

A lot of times we're so busy, and the world is so noisy, and we fill our lives with so much noise and scrolling our phones or -- even when we sit still, we're not really still, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no.

Jennifer Tucker: So taking time to learn to practice silence and stillness, that allows you to open your heart, the ears of your heart, to hear the Holy Spirit and to hear what he's telling you through His Word. He is a communicative God. He wants to talk to us. We have to listen, though. Are we letting him speak or are we just talking at him in our prayers --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Tucker: -- or are we taking time to be still and really hear him? But that requires slowing down, being silent and still with him. And I think that's one of the greatest benefits of Christian meditation, is really kind of tuning your heart to hear his voice and learning how to do that. So, yeah, tons and tons of benefits.

Jennifer Rothschild: Seriously. Well, and as you speak of those, I can almost listen to the hearts of our listeners thinking, okay, all right, I'm convinced. I've bought it. Tell me how. So we are going to talk about how in just a minute, but there's a couple of other things I want to hit with you that I noticed in your book that I think are interesting. Because in your book you talk about -- now, I don't know if I'll say this phrase correct -- Lectio Divina.

Jennifer Tucker: Lectio Divina, mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: Tell me what that is --

Jennifer Tucker: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and what does that -- how does that impact our Christian meditation?

Jennifer Tucker: Sure. Lectio Divina is an ancient Christian practice. It's Latin for "divine reading." It's just a way to contemplatively and meditatively read Scripture. It is not the only way to meditate on Scripture by any means; it is just the framework that I have found to be most helpful for me personally. It kind of gives me a guideline of how to meditate, like what to focus on and how to take this small little section of Scripture and really go deep with it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Jennifer Tucker: So it's nothing I came up with by any means on my own. Like, it's been centuries. It's an ancient monastic practice, actually. But I read about it first in a Eugene Peterson book called "Eat This Book." If you want to really dive deep in Lectio Divina, I highly recommend his book, because that really opened my eyes to a whole different way to read Scripture.

But, yeah, it's just a framework for meditating on Scripture. It's not the only way. But I found it, and it's what I use in my book as far as the framework of how I set it up. Because to me, it just helps guide me through that time of meditation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and we need that, Jennifer, because -- especially when we're new at it. Our minds are quick to wander, so to have a little bit of guardrails.

And so let's move to that. Because you build the meditations in your book on a framework, and it's around Philippians 4:8. You mentioned some of the elements of that verse earlier. So tell us about that and how it works.

Jennifer Tucker: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Lectio Divina itself as a framework, it just involves five different parts. And it's not like you do them in order. They're kind of all kind of -- in a lot of ways working in tandem. So silence is a big part of it. It's being still and silent. I recommend if you're starting out in meditation, not to try to say, oh, I'm going to meditate for 30 minutes every day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Jennifer Tucker: That is setting yourself up to be very disappointed, because --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Frustrated.

Jennifer Tucker: Yeah. Because honestly, it's a practice that's going to take practice. And just start small. Try, like, three minutes. Set a timer and just sit in stillness and silence for, like, three minutes and see how you feel. See what your mind was like. Are you racing? And it probably is, and that's okay. That's part of it, actually. Part of the process is you're starting to pay attention to what your mind is doing. So that's a big part of it.

So just practice silence, practice stillness, and go slow and don't feel like you have to do it all at once. There's no perfect way to meditate. Any time you spend focused on God and in prayer with him, even if you're not saying any words, even if you're just sitting and recognizing God is with me, God is with me, and just reminding your soul that he's with you, it's going to make a difference over time. But start small. But silence is a part of it. Prayer is a big part of it. You're praying all throughout as you meditate. Whether you're praying specific prayers or you're praying through the Scripture that you're focused on, prayer is a big part of it.

"Lectio" is the reading. That stands for "reading." But it's just a small passage of Scripture. We're not -- this is not a big Bible study. There is -- Bible studies are very important. But meditation is not Bible study. We're not digging into the history and the historical significance or the -- it's important to know the context, it's important to do that, but in your time of intentional meditation, we're not studying the Scripture so much as we're meditating on a small bit.

So maybe it's just one verse. Maybe it's just two verses. Maybe it's just a little tiny passage that you're going to read and reread and then read again, so the repetition of that and opening your heart to hear, okay, Holy Spirit, what do you have for me in this? And you may have a great takeaway. You may have nothing. You may be like, aah, there's nothing there.

But the point of it is not to have some great revelation. We're not trying to make something happen, we're not trying to conjure up some kind of emotion or feel some sort of way. I think a lot of people go into a meditation thinking, oh, I'm going to feel so much more peace, I'm going to feel calm after this. But you may not. You might actually feel very anxious and kind of -- I don't know. Because a lot of times when you get still and quiet, that's when all those feelings you've been suppressing kind of bubble up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Here you are.

Jennifer Tucker: And so especially as you begin meditating, you might find it quite uncomfortable. Silence and stillness is very uncomfortable if you're used to really pushing down and suppressing your feelings and your thoughts and your emotions, which a lot of us are very, very good at.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

Jennifer Tucker: We stay busy and we stay distracted because we don't want to deal with the hard stuff that's down in there. We just ignore it and we push it down. But when you get still before the Lord and when you get quiet, that's going to bubble up. And so just be prepared that you may not have this amazing calm feeling at first, but it's all important because that's where God meets us. He meets us right there. And these are the things that we got to let bubble up, because that's how we can give them to him and trust him with it and realize, okay, this is -- you may not even realize that you're stuffing all these feelings down.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Jennifer Tucker: Sometimes things bubble up you didn't even know you were feeling. So it's a great way to kind of just deal with stuff. Anyway...

And then meditating is -- again, that's the -- there's three different points of meditation in Lectio Divina. Like, the first time you read through the passage, you're focused on what's one word that stood out to me in this passage, one word or phrase. And you kind of just pray on that phrase, "God, what do you have for me in this phrase?" And really just kind of sit in silence and hold that word or phrase and just see what the Holy Spirit might reveal to you about that.

And the second time you read through, you're meditating by praying slowly through that passage, praying the Scripture, praying those words with God.

And then the third form of meditation is we're going to consider what invitation might God be extending to me today based on this passage, based on my current circumstances that I'm dealing with, how I'm feeling, what emotions may have bubbled up in this time of silence. What invitation is God giving me? And maybe it's nothing to do with the passage. Maybe God's just saying, Listen, remember I'm with you. Maybe it's a simple thing. Maybe it's I need to reach out for help today because I'm struggling. I don't know.

But God -- and you may not -- again, you're not trying to make something happen. You don't have to come up with a thing to fill in the blank. If you're not sure what God's inviting you to do, that's okay. But you leave that open throughout your day and you're having this -- it's an ongoing conversation with God.

So then you move on to your day and you're going about your errands and you're running -- doing your work and you're doing your things, and then you're pausing and taking -- your mind can go back to this, though, and back to that tiny Scripture, that one word that stood out to you. And you'd be amazed how much -- the Holy Spirit can later on bring that up and show you something that you didn't even expect. And so it's really -- it's getting the Scripture in your head and in your heart so that it's there. It's there and he can use it as you walk through your life to show you amazing things.

And so that's kind of -- and, yeah, I framed it around Philippians 4:8, "Fix your thoughts on what is true and honorable and right and pure and lovely and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise." So those eight categories is what Scripture tells us to focus our thoughts on. And so -- we're not always focused on those things --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

Jennifer Tucker: -- and that's okay, because we're human and the world is going to throw all -- we're going to have all kinds of thoughts. But how can we -- how can turning our thoughts toward those things help us walk through the chaos and the difficulty and the pain and the suffering of this life? Because not everything is easy. This is not about, you know, painting a rainbow over all of our circumstances and say, Oh, everything's lovely, everything's right. Because it's not. And part of thinking on, like, what is right is knowing things are not right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. There's wrong

Jennifer Tucker: There's a lot in the world that isn't right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Tucker: And so how is God then spurring me to help make what is wrong right? Like, that's what -- anyway... I can get off on a tangent there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. But I love that. Because what you're doing is you're training your brain, your mind, your thought patterns --

Jennifer Tucker: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- even outside of that time of meditation, to gravitate toward and to be aware of that which is good and honorable or right, or the adverse.

I appreciate you saying earlier, too, Jenn, that this isn't easy. And what I think our listeners need to hear again is this reality that this is not a pass/fail.

Jennifer Tucker: No, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is not a you're good at it/you're bad at it. This is -- success is just doing it. Just do it. Like, if you're one of those who's governed by the need to check a box, checking the box means you just show up. And whatever happens with your pure heart in the Lord is whatever happens. Because so many of us, Jennifer, are, okay, you just told me what to do, I am going to do it.

Jennifer Tucker: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm going to be the best meditator that ever was, right?

Jennifer Tucker: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then we set ourselves up for failure. So that's a really good thing for all of us here. It's all about grace. And it is not about us. It is not about us.

Jennifer Tucker: Yeah. It's about spending time with Jesus. It is about being aware, being present in his presence, and just spending time with him. And the more we commune with him, the more we spend time with him intentionally, the more we're going to become like him, we're going to reflect him in our life. And so that's really what it's about. The fruit of the spirit is not something we can conjure up and make happen on our own. There's no checklist.

Now, I used to be -- I'm a perfectionist. I'm a queen list maker, and I will check every box to be --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Tucker: -- the, quote/unquote, good Christian that I need to be. But that's not -- the checking every box is not what makes me a, quote/unquote, good Christian. It's not going to make me more like Christ. Being with Christ is what will make me like Christ, and that's -- there is nothing -- I don't have to bring anything to the table. Just myself. And he's got everything I need because he is everything I need.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Word.

Jennifer Tucker: And so just being with him. And that's where we've got to slow down and spend time with him. And sometimes that's hard, hard, hard to do, and that's why I said just grab three minutes. Grab a little bit. Start small.

But God is there, no matter when it is or where it is. It can be in your car, it can be anywhere. He's there and you can spend time with him anywhere, anytime. So, yeah, there's no rules. It's not about perfection, it's about presence.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I love that. And I'm grateful you've written the book too, because that does give us a little bit of concrete to pull all this abstraction into to give us a guide. So please -- we will have the book on the Show Notes, my people, so that you can go straight there and grab it. But I want us to -- I want to just ask you one more question, Jennifer, as we end. Actually -- maybe this is a two-fold question. Okay. One, I want you to address a discomfort, and then secondly I want you to give us a first thing we can do.

Okay, so here's the first part of the question. I think one thing that makes some of us uncomfortable about meditating is that sometimes we're not sure -- like, how do you really know you're hearing from God as you meditate on Scripture? Okay, so that's one question I would love for you to address. And then lastly, tell us how we can get started. What is the most doable way we can get started with this when our podcast ends?

Jennifer Tucker: Absolutely. Okay. Well, that's a good question of how do you know you're hearing from God and it's not just my own thinking or my own wants and desires and thoughts. And I think that takes a little practice. But one thing you can do -- well, there's three things you can do if you're uncertain.

Now, in your time of meditation -- and I recommend -- I keep a little notebook with me just to write things down if something comes to me or I think of something, especially if I'm unsure about it. Don't worry too much in that moment, just -- try not to overthink it too much in your time of meditation, just accept. And pray. Pray to God about it. God, is this what you're telling me? Is this really from you? And kind of seek confirmation from his Spirit.

But one thing you can do is ask whether what you heard lines up with the written Word of God. God's not going to tell you something that contradicts his Scripture. And so does what you heard, does that line up with the truth in Scripture? Now, if you're not a Bible scholar, which I am not, you may not know all of Scripture to know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Jennifer Tucker: -- does this line up.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you've got Google, you can look it up.

Jennifer Tucker: I know, right? Yes, absolutely. Look it up or get counsel from someone who knows Scripture and theology well, someone you trust, someone -- maybe it's a mentor, maybe it's -- maybe it is Google. And maybe it's looking for leaders that you do trust that really you know have studied the Word of God, who know His Word.

And you can take your time. You don't have to find a fast answer. Sit with it for a while. And you don't -- yeah, it's not this -- you don't have to have some immediate revelation. Sit with it for a while. Consult those who do know Scripture well. Does this line up? Does this sound like something God would tell me? And then pray for confirmation in the form of peace and clarity. And I do believe the Holy Spirit will give us that.

Now, like I said, give yourself time. Allow yourself to sit with it and to really search Scripture for confirmation that that's true and that aligns with the Word of God. But, yeah, I really feel like God's going to give you that peace and that confirmation. Talk to a friend and say, Hey, I think God might (audio cuts out) in my meditation. I think he kind of showed me this. Do you think that sounds right, or is that -- you know? Yeah. So honestly I would say, yeah, do those things.

And as far as what's something you can start with right now, I would say kind of what I said before, carve out three to five minutes in your day, whether it's the beginning of your day, maybe it's at your lunch break, maybe it's after you put the kids to bed at night. And I know it's hard to do this. I know we're exhausted and our first go is probably to pick up our phone and just scroll mindlessly on social media. But maybe one of those times that you just pick up your phone, maybe set it down and instead just find a quiet place and sit in silence and just -- you don't even have to --- you can have Scripture opened if you'd like to, find one verse or something.

But at the beginning don't even -- you don't even have to do that. Just open a conversation with God. "God, I'm going to sit here with you." And kind of begin being comfortable with the discomfort of that sitting still in the silence and not having to perform, not having to produce something. Just be with God. Even if you just repeat to yourself, "God, you are with me. God, you are with me." And let that begin the conversation with him, and just practice that being still and silent. I know it sounds so simple, and it sounds too easy, and it sounds like, well, that's not much to do, but I think that's --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a lot.

Jennifer Tucker: The hardest part of it for me was just to, number one, make that time. Like, push aside all the busyness and the noise and the crazy. Because I had a million excuses for why I didn't have time to be quiet, to be still and silent.

And then number two, it is uncomfortable to just be in the silence. If you're not used to it, if you haven't practiced it -- because our world, especially modern-day society, is very noisy. And I don't think we even realize how noisy it is until you sit in silence. And it is hard. If you have little kids, if you have, you know, other people around you, it's going to be a challenge maybe to find a quiet moment. But maybe you go out to your car and you sit for three minutes in silence with God and just see what happens. And do that another day, and then do it again. And then see over time what is this doing for your soul, spending just a few minutes in silence.

And then slowly expand that time maybe. Open your Bible and read one verse and just meditate on that verse. So it's kind of this slow little journey. You don't have to do it all at once. But I would say practice silence and just see what happens.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, you heard the other Jennifer. Just start with carving out three minutes. Just three minutes. In fact, when this podcast ends after our mindless chatter, keep your ear buds in. Stay on your walk. Or if you're in the parking lot, you know, just sit there for three more minutes.

KC Wright: Yes. Because when you just sit in silence -- you can have your Bible if you want. Just pick one verse. But you can even just sit with the Lord in silence. Which I know this is breaking news that's very hard for me, but there's healing in this. I tell you the truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, there really is. I mean, that's kind of what Jenn was talking about, so -- it is hard for some of us, so let's get comfortable with the discomfort. You're not performing, you're not producing, you're just being present with the Lord.

KC Wright: You know, another thing I really appreciated that she said was when we meditate, we always ask if what we hear lines up with the written Word of God. Because when I'm silent, I hear all sorts of things in my head.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: We all do.

Jennifer Rothschild: We all do. We all do. You're right. Because meditating, it is not emptying our heads. It's filling our heads, filling our minds with truth.

Well, our people, I think we're giving away -- KC, right? --

KC Wright: We are.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- one of Jenn's books?

KC Wright: Yes. Go to the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/370 -- that's 3-7-O -- to enter to win the Book called "Present in Prayer" by Jennifer Tucker. Or you can go straight to Jennifer's Instagram right now and enter to win. Someone's going to win. It may as well be you, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: Here's Jennifer's Instagram: @jennrothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And by the way, at the Show Notes, you're also going to have a transcript and links to Jenn's website where you can see her beautiful art.

All right, this one's a wrap, our people. Remember that you can develop a prayer habit. You can be totally present in prayer because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: Now, here's the deal. You had your Periscope moment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: I want to tell you about one of mine.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

KC Wright: Okay. Years ago, I'm the general manager of a Christian radio station in a very religious community. We won't talk about it. But I ended up working on Christmas Eve and we were broadcasting from live a church service. And this was the last thing I had to do before I traveled on the road home for Christmas. And I was not in a good mood. I didn't want to be there. The kid that was supposed to do it, he quit. You know, I was already in a bad mood.

And I'm cleaning up the studio -- and back in those days, we had CDs. So I'm putting the CDs up, and I'm listening to this broadcast, and I did not agree with a thing this preacher was saying. And so I'm putting these CDs up going, "Your tradition has made the power of God of none effect."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: And I'm not -- it was a very -- the service was as dry as crackers, and I just don't roll that way. And so anyway, the phones start ringing.

Jennifer Rothschild: The mic was on?

KC Wright: And the first phone call I received was my buddy Joel from the Pizza Ranch, and he said, "KC, your mic's on."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

KC Wright: And I said, "No." And he goes -- and I said, "Joel, can you hear what I'm saying?" He says, "No. It just sounds like you're on the front row and you're yelling at the pastor.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's terrible.

KC Wright: But God protected me. But here's the rule. Never say anything in the studio that you don't want broadcast to millions.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.