4:13 Podcast: Can I Show Empathy to Myself and Others? With Bill & Kristi Gaultiere [Episode 377]

Kristi Gaultiere: In our world we don't have very many safe places. The neurological studies and brain studies show that if I were to be vulnerable with you and tell you about some grief that I'm going through right now, and if you didn't respond with empathy for my grief, the shame centers in my brain would light up and I would close up and I would not want to be vulnerable with you anymore and I would try to go to surface levels, which is why so often our relationships don't go very deep in Christ and discipleship. Or we get just stuck in our head in a believe/do type of Christianity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know that empathy is a proven path to healthier emotions and relationships? Well, now you do. Empathy is often misunderstood, though, and sometimes it's even maligned. Well, I want you to know it's not coddling and it's not rescuing. True empathy is understanding and care that respects God's truth and empowers personal responsibility. It's what your soul needs and it's how Jesus relates to you.

So on today's episode, Drs. Bill and Kristi Gaultiere are going to offer some very compelling insights from Scripture and from psychology to help you receive empathy from God and show that same empathy to yourself and to others. So let the healing begin. KC, come on.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host and my soul sister --

Jennifer Rothschild: Soul sister.

KC Wright: -- Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, everybody. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. We're two friends shoved here in the closet, talking about one great topic today, with zero stress. And our goal is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you are fully relying on Christ and living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. I loved this conversation. And here's why. We don't talk about it much. Empathy.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we don't talk about empathy toward ourselves, we don't talk about empathy toward others, and, in fact, I think there is a great empathy deficit in the world today, especially if you go on social media. Empathy, so we need it, and we need it for ourselves.

KC Wright: Yes, we do. And, you know, there are days in life where you catch all the green lights, and you go to the gym and you own it, and just, oh, my goodness, something happy comes in the mail. And then there are days that you should have just stayed at home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you feel that way.

KC Wright: Yeah. And I needed empathy the other day. I should have just stayed at home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, what happened?

KC Wright: Went to the gas station. I was on empty. All the people that drive around on the E, I hear you. Okay?

Anyway, I put the nozzle in the Jeep and I locked it. I locked it. You can lock it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: See, I didn't know that.

KC Wright: So you don't have to hold it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Okay, gotcha.

KC Wright: I believe I get this from my mother. It's called nervous energy -- and I think she got it from my grandfather -- that we just can't stand still.

Jennifer Rothschild: I understand that.

KC Wright: So the Jeep is being filled, but what am I going to do? So I start multitasking and I said I'll use this moment to clean out my Jeep. Okay? When I did, the locked gas nozzle falls out of the Jeep and it shoots up my shorts. The gas shoots up my shorts -- okay? -- soaking my entire right leg. And by the way, then I couldn't get it unlocked.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Listen. I know these gas stations have cameras, and this could have gone viral. I can't get it unlocked. There's gas -- it's spraying all over. The entire right side of me is soaked with gasoline.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Finally I get it unlocked, I fill up the rest of my tank. Now I have to be a responsible adult and walk into the gas station, because if somebody drops a match --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, that's --

KC Wright: -- this place is blowing, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

KC Wright: So here I go into the gas station. And I sounded like this (makes squishing sound) because --

Jennifer Rothschild: Your shoes are full of gas.

KC Wright: -- my shoes are filled with gas. Okay? And I walk in and I tell the attendant exactly what I did. He's concerned and slightly looking at me like, Are you medically okay? Are you on any kind of prescription?

So he follows me out and he has this whole machine -- or hose thing that takes care of this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: But it was so embarrassing. I immediately texted a sweet friend of mine, Layne, and she goes, "Do you do this stuff on purpose so you can have show prep for the podcast?"

Jennifer Rothschild: I wish. But, no, that's just your life.

KC Wright: It's just my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, he should have sprayed you down because you were highly flammable.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh, KC, that is embarrassing.

KC Wright: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So did you show yourself empathy or did you scold yourself?

KC Wright: I laughed it off.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good.

KC Wright: But I had other errands to run, and you at that moment don't have the option. You have to go straight home and shower --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

KC Wright: -- because one half of your body smells like gas.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Unleaded.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, listen, you need unleaded. With your sparky personality, you definitely needed unleaded gas.

KC Wright: Anyway, I'm just saying, that could have went viral.

Jennifer Rothschild: It could have gone viral.

KC Wright: Seeing that gas and that hose just flare all over the parking lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: You told the story well 'cause I could visualize the whole thing. That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Yeah. Anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, anyway, you know what? It's a good thing we've got two psychologists on the program, because I think you need this. So let's introduce Bill and Kristi Gaultiere.

KC Wright: Let's do it. Bill and Kristi have been counseling and ministering to people for 30 years and are the authors of "Journey of the Soul" and "Healthy Feelings, Thriving Faith." Bill is a psychologist and Kristi is a marriage and family therapist. They are AACC leaders and have served in private practice and church ministries. They are the founders of Soul Shepherding, a nonprofit ministry to help believers discover their next steps for growing in intimacy with Jesus, emotional health, and loving relationships.

All right. Are you ready? Because the doctors are in.

Jennifer Rothschild: The doctors are in. I knew you were going to say that.

All right, Bill and Kristi, I love that you all are married and you've got this partnership in ministry. And I especially love what we're going to talk about today. So your book is called "Deeply Loved." And we're going to talk about the nature of the book, which is dealing with empathy and the importance of empathy.

But let's start with something a little difficult just to get it out of the way. Okay? There's some books out there that contend that maybe empathy is toxic. In fact, there's a book that deals with toxic empathy, and another one calls empathy a sin. So I think we need to start with what your definition of empathy is. And let's get honest. Is it toxic? Is it a sin?

Bill Gaultiere: Well, we believe that empathy is throughout the Bible. The word is not used in the older translations, it's used in the newer translations. But empathy is -- the concept of empathy is all throughout the Scriptures, it's embedded in compassion.

It's sort of an unfortunate misunderstanding that's happening right now that really those books are against -- not true biblical empathy, but against, like, indulgence, codependency, coddling people. And so we say is that empathy is always connected to truth and responsibility. In fact, we give, like, this formula for growth, you know, "formula" in quotes. But empathy plus truth plus responsibility equals growth.

So empathy without telling the truth, speaking the truth in love, like Ephesians 4:15 says, if empathy doesn't foster personal responsibility, then it's not going to be helpful. So in that sense, there could be an unhealthy empathy that would be toxic. But it's sort of changing the meaning of the word. Because when you really understand the meaning of empathy, it's a beautiful healing thing.

Kristi Gaultiere: And, Jennifer, thanks for asking for our definition. We define empathy as seeking to understand someone's emotions, their thoughts, and their experiences. And this helps them know they're deeply loved by God. So it's not pity and it's not sympathy. There are different things where we get confusion around what empathy really is.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think too, y'all, in this -- at least in America, kind of the climate of the polarization, we feel like it is tolerance -- inappropriate tolerance to try to understand someone's viewpoint. And I don't see that in Scripture, and so that's -- even though you mentioned, Bill, that the Bible, maybe in older translations especially, doesn't use the word "empathy," let's still talk about what the Bible does say about empathy. And I'd like to know, our just and kind God, is he empathetic?

Kristi Gaultiere: Well, that's so important. The word "compassion" is used 117 times in the Bible. We have a list of over 100 empathy Scriptures we've included in our book "Deeply Loved."

But most importantly, I love your question about is God a God who has empathy? And we looked to Jesus and we thought, the incarnation is God's empathy, that God himself would become human, would enter a human body, who would -- the kenosis, the humility to experience every emotion we experience, every trial, every temptation, every suffering, that he would identify with us personally. And we even in the book identify, through a Bible study that we did in the Gospels, 39 emotions that Jesus --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Kristi Gaultiere: -- experienced.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Well, you're right, the incarnation, it is like the ultimate empathy. It's God saying, I see you, I understand you. I have walked with you, I have walked as you. And I think sometimes we hoard our own kindness toward others, that we have received from God, because -- we don't mean to, but we don't realize.

But then there's sometimes that we're like -- it's easy to be empathetic, you know. If you see someone with a visible issue, sometimes it's easier to be empathetic to that person, right? But then there's ourselves, you know, and it's not so much. And so I'm curious what your opinion is about self-empathy. Like, is it important? Is it biblical? Tell us about that.

Bill Gaultiere: Yeah. Well, drawing on our Jesus-centered psychology, we do teach the concept of self-empathy, but it might not mean what you who are listening immediately think with that. We don't mean, like, hugging yourself or just saying nice things to yourself or relying on yourself to feel good about yourself. That might be how our culture would think of self-empathy. The way we define self-empathy is agreeing with God's empathy.

And so the point here is that if we don't agree with the grace, the compassion, the unconditional love, the empathy that God provides for us, then it doesn't reach us. And so in the Bible that's called faith. We need to have faith. We need to put our faith in God. But there is a part of that in the psychology of it that I need to join with that. And so that's why Jesus says, you know, love your neighbor as yourself. In other words, if I'm loving the God who loves me, as God's love gets in me, then I have love to give to others. So that's how we're talking about self-empathy, internalizing the empathy that Jesus Christ has for us.

Kristi Gaultiere: Let me illustrate this in our marriage, Jennifer. Early in our marriage, Bill would listen to me with empathy, but I would spoil it because inside I was just feeling shame, and I couldn't receive his love, his grace, his empathy for me and what I was feeling because I didn't agree with that. I was judging myself. And we do the same thing with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I think we do. You know what I was thinking as y'all both explain that, it takes humility to really receive and internalize the love and acceptance of God. And the grace. Because sometimes we just keep earning his approval and his kindness, and it has already been given to us in Christ. Man, that's hard.

So what happens, then, if we don't grasp this? How does a lack of self-empathy impact our emotional and our spiritual health?

Bill Gaultiere: Well, we are prone to get dominated by, like, self-judging, self-criticism, putting expectations on ourself or relying on coping mechanisms to get by, whether it's drinking too much or pleasing people or overworking. Because what's happening is we have these unconscious resistances to grace, to unconditional love, and empathy is a component of love and grace.

And so we have to become more self-aware of these internal resistances. Even as I'm seeking help from my pastor or my friend or my spiritual director, there is likely a part of me that is being self-critical, self-judging, self-rejecting, or trying so hard to please and perform that these things are filtering out the unconditional love of God that's coming to me through the listening of my friend.

Kristi Gaultiere: And this affects our relationship with God and with other people as we try to be strong and deny our emotions and our needs. We also end up settling for shallow relationships because we're not being emotionally honest. We're keeping others at a safe distance, and even God himself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay, that hits so close to home. I think we've all been through seasons, or maybe that's a real struggle. And so one of the things I would be curious about to both of you is -- so I'm a big self-talker. I talk to myself all the time. And there is one problem with that, is I believe almost everything I say to myself. And so I have had to become a high self-monitor and really monitor my vocabulary.

So I'm telling you this, because then I began to transition when I would get the most -- like you were explaining, Kristi, the shame or the frustration or judgment toward myself. I would have to stop and say, "Jennifer, you did your best. Good job," or whatever.

Bill Gaultiere: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So let's apply this. What could someone who might really struggle with the self-judgment, and they're trying to really learn this self-empathy that comes from their relationship with Christ, that is centered there, what are some things they can do? How can they catch themselves? How can they begin to awake to this so that they can begin to become aware and change it?

Bill Gaultiere: Well, sometimes the most accessible way is to find someone safe to talk to or to journal out a prayer to the Lord. Because when we receive empathy from God and it becomes very tangible when it's God through a person or one of the many empathy Scriptures that we draw on in "Deeply Loved," this makes empathy tangible and so then I can see the contrast between what God's Word is saying or how my friend is listening to me with empathy with what's going on in my own self-talk.

And we all have self-talk. Most of us aren't as aware of it as you are, Jennifer, because you've done some work in your discipleship to Jesus which includes self-awareness. So by becoming aware of the things that we are saying to ourself or thinking about ourself, when that gets into the light, then we can see where we might be off track with what the Bible teaches and says. And the Bible is full of grace for us. Even for our sin, there's forgiveness for our sin.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes. Well, and Jesus took our judgment, and so -- thank you, Lord. That's good. That's super good.

Okay. So let's -- we're talking about your book. I want to center in on it right now, because one thing that is interesting is you blend both biblical and psychological approaches to empathy. So tell us why we need both of those to thrive.

Kristi Gaultiere: Well, all truth is God's truth, and the Bible is God's truth. But not all of God's truth is in the Bible, like the chemistry tables, for example. And so there is a lot of truth we can understand through the study of human behavior, which is what the study of psychology is.

And it's really why Bill and I got our doctorates in psychology, was because the Lord really drew us and called us to that for ministry, to understand the human soul and to understand our relationship with God and where we get broken down and where these defense mechanisms get in the way.

And really, God's desire for us is that we would be holy. But that includes us being whole emotionally, spiritually, relationally, and in every way an integration -- you know, Jesus came and saved our soul, and that includes our body, our emotions, our relationships, as well as our thinking, our mental capacity, and our heart most importantly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and when you think about it, I mean, this is why God put us all in the body of Christ. This is where he has gifted you and strengthened you to help unclutter and clear up some of the things that -- though they are in Scripture, a person may not be able to really deal with and apply it until they figure out some of the other stuff. So it is beautiful when you say we are integrated in our own bodies, you know, body, soul, and spirit. We're integrated as the body of Christ too. Oh, man, I love that.

And, you know, your book "Deeply Loved" is a really good start for someone to help expose maybe I do need to talk to a trusted brother or sister in Christ. Maybe I do need to go to a biblical counselor or a psychologist who is a believer in Christ to get help. It's just baby steps one step at a time.

But I want us to go to something super practical that we can actually walk through. Okay? Because in your book you teach the four A's of empathy. Like, I love a good acrostic, an acronym, a formula. So unpack these four A's for us so we can understand kind of what you're talking about the four A's of empathy are.

Bill Gaultiere: This is a basic approach to our conversations with the Lord or with a friend or -- like, in Soul Shepherding we train spiritual directors. We have a certificate program, and this is one of the tools that we teach them. We all need to receive empathy. We say empathy is oxygen for the soul. So the four A's make this practical.

And so the first A is to ask. So you ask someone, you know, "How are you feeling?" Or you can ask your own self or you can pray this way and you talk to God about how you're feeling. Jesus said you have not because you ask not. He teaches us, ask and keep asking, seek and keep seeking, knock and keep knocking. And so we need to be persistent in asking. And certainly in our love for our brother and sister, to notice them and to be curious and to ask, you know, "How are you doing?" Good questions are essential for empathy.

And the second A is attuning to emotions. And this is really the heart of empathy, is paying attention to how people feel, you know. We don't say, "How do you think?" we say, "How do you feel?" because the feelings get -- it's more personal. It's warmer. It gets more deeper. So we like to say emotions are like the portal to the whole soul, the whole being. And so it just opens up. So as we're listening to someone with empathy, we're asking questions to -- you know, "Well, tell me more about that." "Well, it seems that you are feeling discouraged." So we're reflecting back, we're mirroring back what they seem to feel. And this is what the Lord does for us.

We have ten different empathy practices that we teach that make this real practical, in addition to the 4 A's. And so in "Deeply Loved," one of those empathy practices we call empathy prayer, which is a journaling practice. But it really features this attuning to emotions in prayer by understanding how the Lord sees you in your body, in your personality, in your self-talk, in the emotions that you're feeling and these kinds of things, all these different aspects of us. But the emotions is really the heart of it. So attuning to emotions is that second A.

The third A is acknowledging the significance of the experience or validating the emotions. Because the things that we go through in life, particularly when we're distressed or troubled, they feel big to us and we tend to feel alone with it. So a really good empathetic listener will see the magnitude of what somebody is going through and then use some words to say, "Well, this is really difficult for you," or, "I can see this is very painful." And really good empathy goes just a little below the surface of what somebody is feeling. We don't go way, way deep, because that would overwhelm people, but just a little deeper. And we use fresh words to help engage people with their experience. We're not just parroting back what they're saying, we're listening for what's a little below the surface.

And then the fourth A is affirming the strengths. And so this is validating someone's courage to be vulnerable, or their perseverance. You know, faith in the Bible mostly is perseverance. So we think of faith as, like, the gift of faith to believe for a miracle, and that's beautiful. But normally faith, like in Hebrews 11:12, it's enduring. And it takes perseverance to endure some of the difficult things that we struggle with in our relationships and in our life emotionally. And so when someone's being vulnerable, we want to really affirm that faith that they're expressing. Like in Job, God honors Job's faith, even though sometimes Job is saying some really negative things there. But he's being so honest with God about how he's feeling, what he's experiencing, and he's respecting and trusting God in that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So there's so much about this. By the way, I was a psych major, so you're pushing every little happy button I have right now. I'm loving this so much.

But I'm mindful. And I'm mindful of who's listening. And there's some to-do listeners out there, they're like, okay, I just got the 4 A's, this is what I'm going to do. But I'm also mindful that there are some listeners out there who you are exposing by this -- we are exposing by this conversation a wound. And so this is going to be our last question. And you mentioned the word Soul Shepherding.

I would love for both of you, just kind of shepherd the soul who is listening right now and they're thinking, nobody ever asked me. Nobody ever acknowledged my pain. Nobody ever affirmed my strength. Nobody -- you know, I grew up with no empathy in my home, and I'm in Christ. But I just -- this thing, I feel like a roadblock. How does that person get unblocked in this empathy area because they relied so heavily on not receiving it? Which is worthy as a child or as they were growing up. How do they get past that road block toward receiving empathy from God and giving it to others?

Kristi Gaultiere: Thank you, Jennifer, for your empathy for that listener. And I join you with that because that's my story. I was born into a family of thinkers, strong Christians who -- my mom would tell me, when I had an emotion, "Kristi, snap out of it." And I began to treat myself the way I was treated. As a little girl, when I showed emotions, I was abandoned. I was put in my room. I was left until I could snap out of it and come back into relationship. And so I learned to hide my emotions, my true self from God and from other people. And it didn't get me very far.

I even got caught up in cycles of co-dependency as I would learn to be empathetic and to be there for other people, giving them what I wished I definitely desperately needed and could receive, but didn't know a safe context to do that. I didn't learn to trust anybody with my emotions. And so my emotions were internalized, which results in all kinds of bodily sicknesses or in anger eruptions or in anxiety because I'm internalizing so much stress in my body.

And so it was such a grace that as I ran into these issues and these problems, God called me to study psychology, which required me, as I was getting my doctorate, to receive counseling. And as I did that -- which I probably wouldn't have humbled myself to do if it wasn't a requirement of me -- I was amazed the way somebody could hold that space and mirror God's presence and love to me and listen to me, seeking to understand and to know me and show me that God had the same disposition for me, that God actually saw me and wanted to know me, just like we see in the Old Testament he did for Hagar, and she named God the God Who Sees Me.

And as we begin to receive this empathy from ambassadors of Christ, from shepherds after his own heart, we begin to be able to receive God's love and grace, and it builds intimacy with Jesus himself for us as we receive and we agree with that empathy.

We write about three-way empathy. We need to experience empathy of God through human people. God says it's not good for us to be alone. He created us in his image as relational beings. And so we need often people to mediate God's love to us in the form of empathy.

You know, in our world we don't have very many safe places. The neurological studies and brain studies show that if I were to be vulnerable with you and tell you about some grief that I'm going through right now, and if you didn't respond with empathy for my grief, the shame centers in my brain would light up. And I would close up and I would not want to be vulnerable with you anymore and I would try to go to surface levels, which is why so often our relationships don't go very deep in Christ and discipleship. Or we get just stuck in our head in a believe/do type of Christianity.

And one of the things we learned from our mentor Dallas and Jane Willard, who have been great mentors and personal friends of ours, is that if our discipleship to Jesus doesn't get personal and concrete, it doesn't change us much. And we found that to be really true.

And so when we are risking in relationship with a safe person, and especially if we have that context -- and this is why we train spiritual directors at Soul Shepherding and why we have a staff of 50 spiritual directors who you can meet with on Zoom at any time, because we need a context where we know it's going to be safe, it's going to be confidential, I'm not going to be hurt, and somebody who's going to be listening to me and joining Jesus' empathy for me and praying for me and listening to the Holy Spirit as they listen to me and cooperating with God's love and action in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, people, did you hear that? This was striking to me. We treat ourselves the way we were treated.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: So we don't need to hide from God or people. Every issue you face, face it with truth and grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Exactly. And I also -- I got to say this. I liked how they explained that we start with receiving the empathy from others who love Jesus and then we will learn how to receive that same empathy from God. I mean, we need each other, people.

Oh, yeah, and one more thing also. This, KC, blew me away. That the shame centers in our brain light up when we don't receive empathy. Like, that is startling.

KC Wright: Yeah. I'm sure we've barely scratched the surface here, and we need to go deeper. So you can get their book. I am. You can actually enter to win one right now on Jennifer's Instagram by simply going to @jennrothschild on Instagram. Or you can go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/377. Either way, you can get the book at the Show Notes as well. We'll have a link there. Plus you can read the full transcript. I love the focus on empathy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I know. There is so much here. And by the way, they mentioned their ministry, Soul Shepherding. We will also have a link there to Shoul Separding- -- it's easy for you to hear. Okay, let me try to say that again. Soulshepherding.com. That way you'll remember it. But we will -- if you don't find it yourself, soulshepherding.com, we'll have a link to that website, their ministry, also on the Show Notes so that we can get you connected, you know, with their spiritual directing or whatever it is that you might need.

KC Wright: Yes. There's so much here. And you need to share this one with your people.

And by the way, don't forget, if you haven't left a review yet -- let's say you've been a long-time listener. Well, feel the podcast hug.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: But if you haven't left a review, would you mind just taking a moment? Because each review enables us to reach one more heart for Jesus. Do that today. Your reviews really do make a huge difference.

All right. I've got a lot to process, so we're going to get --

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too.

KC Wright: -- this one done today. Remember, you can show yourself empathy, you can give others empathy, you can receive empathy from Jesus because you can do all things through Christ who supernaturally gives you strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.