4:13 Podcast: Can I Unlearn the Lies I Believe? With Gary Thomas [Episode 385]

Pastor Gary Thomas: And if we Christians would recognize the fate that God has rescued us from, eternal separation from him, and what that world would [audio cuts out] like that, that we would have to live life without the comfort of the Holy Spirit, without the affirmation of God, living under the wrath of God. That we would have to live being slaves to our sin, not having the power to say no to our sin. If we would see what we've been rescued from, then we would recognize whatever situation we're in, God has treated us better than we deserve.

Jennifer Rothschild: Pastor and best-selling author Gary Thomas knows from personal and pastoral experience the letdown that lots of us feel when it comes to our daily experience as Christians. I mean, we really want to grow closer to God, don't we? But often we just grow more confused and wonder why. Why is it that our faith isn't as satisfying as we had hoped? But the key to the truly abundant new life that God has promised us starts with unlearning lies that we don't even know we have believed.

Well, today Gary is going to help us recognize the deceptions that keep us from the life that the Bible promises us by revealing 12 lies that we need to unlearn. Ooh, get ready, my friends. We are going to renew our minds and renew our lives. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. We're glad you're with us. Happy New Year. I know it's been a couple weeks, but it's still new. And we're talking about renewing our minds by unlearning lies today. What a great time. I love new years, new things.

So in case you are new to us, welcome. Jennifer here. And my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life. And you heard that voice. That's my Seeing Eye Guy. That's KC Wright.

KC Wright: Hey, hey.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's just two friends --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- one topic and --

Jennifer and KC: -- zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: So if you're stressed, take a break. You don't need to feel stressed for 30 minutes here.

KC Wright: Inhale/exhale, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? Anyway, new year. KC and I were just talking about a word of the year. He doesn't have one yet.

KC Wright: Right. Well, you know, several years ago some pastor came up with the idea, instead of making all these resolutions that are created in January and they end, they fall off by February --

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm, they do.

KC Wright: -- that you should just make and pray for that one word that would be the theme, the banner over your life for the entire new year.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I love that idea. And last year yours was "strong," right?

KC Wright: My word was "strong." Everywhere I went, it was the word "strong." It was awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and here's what's interesting, KC. You are strong. Like, he's Mr. CrossFit now. You know, and we have inventory here in our warehouse, a/k/a the garage, and KC helps lift all these boxes of books. I mean, you are strong, man.

KC Wright: I want to be. But, you know, also spiritually strong.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what's most important.

KC Wright: Yeah. There you go. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you have one yet this year, or are you still thinking and praying?

KC Wright: I think I'm going to choose the word "forward."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I like "forward."

KC Wright: Still praying about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. We press on.

KC Wright: But "forward." I like "forward."

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Moving forward.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Well, then I have a surprise. I have three words of the year.

KC Wright: Drum roll, please.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let me preface my three words of the year by telling you what I did on my birthday. Okay. I had a birthday in December --

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I went with some friends to Kansas City. And we had this big weekend planned. Because there were four of us, and three of us were December birthdays. So one of the goals was to go to Cheesecake Factory.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Y'all, they have the best low carb, low sugar cheesecake.

KC Wright: They do. They do.

Jennifer Rothschild: I loved it. That was my whole goal. And then I wanted to go to Trader Joe's because I like their snacks and their skincare, so we went to Trader Joe's.

KC Wright: Those are my two favorite places.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course, KC, because we were separated at birth.

KC Wright: We're twinning again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. But this we may not be twinning about.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because the other thing we did --

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- we all got tattoos. And my tattoo is three words. Okay, I'm going to show you, KC. It's three words. Can you read it?

KC Wright: I love it.

Jennifer and KC: "It Is Well."

Jennifer Rothschild: "It Is Well." That is my tattoo.

KC Wright: I love it. I really do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Now, for those of you who are thinking that's the best thing ever, I know, me too. But those of you who are a little hesitant and might even be borderline judging, okay, let me just explain some things to you.

KC Wright: Yes. Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Max Lucado, America's pastor, the most spiritually awesome man I know, got a tattoo in 2025. If Max can do it, Jennifer can do it.

KC Wright: Joyce Meyer, she stood on stage at her women's conference and showed hers off.

Jennifer Rothschild: What was hers? Do you even remember?

KC Wright: I don't.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Oh, and mine, by the way, it's on my forearm, y'all. It's in a -- because I do want to be respectful. So, like, when I'm on stage teaching, most of the time I'm in long sleeves or jackets, so it doesn't show. But what a great witnessing tool.

KC Wright: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: So when I'm wearing short sleeves, it'll be like, Oh, what does that mean? Well, let me tell you what that means. God has made it well with my soul --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- even though it wasn't well with my circumstances. So there you go.

KC Wright: Oh, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. So those are my three words for the year.

KC Wright: Love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or for the rest of my life.

KC Wright: Life. For real.

Jennifer Rothschild: Until it fades.

KC Wright: For real.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. But on to another thing.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And by the way, I will have a picture for you on social media so you can see my big milestone.

But this is also something cool this new year that we're doing. We have a partner...

Okay, my alma mater, Palm Beach Atlantic University, has decided to partner with the 4:13 Podcast, because the university and the podcast and our ministry, we just share the same mission and the same heart. So you're going to hear, in the middle of this conversation with Gary Thomas, an opportunity for me to introduce you to my university, and it's going to be really fun. But for now, I just wanted to say how grateful I am to have Palm Beach Atlantic University on board as part of the 4:13 Podcast. So welcome.

KC Wright: Yes, welcome.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome, PBA. And also now, let's intro and welcome Gary Thomas.

KC Wright: Gary Thomas is a best-selling author and international speaker who strives to bring people closer to Christ and closer to each other. He has sold over 2 million copies of his books, and they have been translated into over a dozen languages. Gary currently serves as a teaching pastor at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. Gary enjoys running in his spare time and has completed -- I'm so impressed with this -- 14 marathons --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I'm -- wow.

KC Wright: -- including the Boston Marathon three times.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: Go, Gary.

Jennifer Rothschild: You go.

KC Wright: He and his wife, Lisa, have been married for 41 years, and they have three adult children and two grandchildren.

All right. This is going to be so good, like it always is. Here is Gary and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Gary, we're going to be talking about your new book. And for those listening, the title is "The Life You Were Reborn to Live." I love that. And so what it does is dismantling 12 lies that rob your intimacy with God. Okay, so that's huge.

So let's start with this, because I think this is a big deal. The problem with lies is that we don't know it. Like, we can't identify them because they're so familiar to us. So start with that, Gary. How do we know if we're believing lies?

Pastor Gary Thomas: Jennifer, I think we need to become just devoted students and learners of Scripture. We need to assume that we're being lied to hundreds of times a day. I grew up, and there were a lot of cultural lies, like margarine is better for you than butter --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Pastor Gary Thomas: -- cracking your knuckles causes arthritis. It doesn't. It might cause divorce. It doesn't cause arthritis. Things that we just accepted are true that we now know aren't.

And I think that same thing is happening to us spiritually. Paul warns us in Romans 12:2, don't conform to the pattern of this world. Another way to translate world -- it's "aion" in Greek -- is "age." And Paul has this vision that the world wants to shape us. You will think this, you will believe this, you will value this, you will focus on this so that we become good little citizens of the world. And he says you must not let that happen, but be transformed -- this is active -- by the renewing of your mind.

Well, what's the best place to renew our mind? It's to go into Scripture, where we know, I believe, when Scripture speaks, God speaks. Now, we have to understand it. Poetry is poetry. Proverbs are general truths, not absolute commandments. But properly reading and understanding Scripture, I think, is our lifeline. Because if we begin to believe a lie, we'll live a lie, and our whole life can crumble accordingly.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. And I think sometimes we just -- it's almost like we're the frog in the boiling water. We don't realize that the lies are seeping in and we're believing them until all of a sudden we can't breathe and we're like, What has happened? And so I'm glad you're going to deal with dismantling some lies.

But, you know, you just mentioned casually and for fun, like, the world's lies, like margarine versus butter. Okay? But I'm curious, when you're talking about lies in this book, are these lies that you're talking about that we believe, are they always like worldly lies, like you are what you do kind of thing, or are they also some spiritual lies that we believe?

Pastor Gary Thomas: No. I believe I've heard several of them in the church. One of the lies I talk about is dismantling a self-centered salvation, where I grew up thinking that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the Cross so that my sins could be forgiven and I could live with him in eternity. Now, that's a true statement, but it's not a complete statement. Paul would add 2 Corinthians 5:15, "And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised again. Or Jesus in Matthew 6:33, "Seek first the Kingdom of God."

And so it's not just about being saved, it's about being enlisted. It's not just talking about the Cross, it's talking about the Kingdom. It's not just about waiting to go to heaven, it's about being filled with the spirit to bring heaven to earth. So that's a whole different view of life that we could spend our whole lives, instead of waiting for heaven, that we're here to be servants of heaven, to help others experience God's goodness.

Another lie that I think I heard in church, that will surprise some people because of what I've written on so much in marriage and family, is Dismantling Family First. That while I believe family living is essential and should be a good focus, in some sectors I think we've made an idol out of our family.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And when we do that, we don't love our families as well as we might. Jesus claims complete allegiance.

And, Jennifer, when I dealt with the Scriptures where Jesus warned that some families will be torn apart by faith, that son-in-laws will be turned against their mother-in-laws and parents against their children, Jesus even mentions in the Book of Matthew a husband and a wife. We have to come to terms that Jesus said, Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? It's those who hear the Word of God and obey it. He does put the spiritual family above the physical family.

Now, that's not to downplay the importance of the earthly family. But if we don't prioritize our spiritual family and God as our heavenly Father over every other relationship, then we'll fail to love our families best. And so that was a difficult lie for me to grapple with, one that I believe I heard first in the church, not so much from the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting, as I'm hearing this too, Gary, like, your whole paradigm is the truth of Scripture. But you go further. Because an incomplete truth in Scripture then can create a lie that will live --

Pastor Gary Thomas: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I just don't think we recognize it. And so I'm curious for you -- like, those are some very powerful and difficult lies that I can see that we believed in Christendom. But I'm curious for you personally, what lie is it that makes you stumble that you've believed, or that you have believed, and what did you do or are you doing about it?

Pastor Gary Thomas: I think two lies from this book that impacted me the most was not understanding the path to true peace and the sense of feeling entitled when I never would have thought of myself as entitled.

When we go back to peace, I don't think as Christians we emphasize peace enough. The Bible tells us in Isaiah 9:6 that the Messiah would be the Prince of Peace. So what does that mean that God says when the Messiah comes, peace will come with him? And the highest blessing in the Old Testament ended with peace. You've heard this many times. Number 6:24-26. "The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace."

In the Old Testament, they were longing for the coming of peace. And think about it, it was a violent world. You didn't know when you would be attacked or where you would be attacked or how you would be attacked. It could be an enemy, it could be a plague, it could be a famine, a drought, you name it. And so it says but when the Messiah comes, you can finally live with peace. You can let go of this sense that the next shoe is always about to drop.

Nineteen of 21 New Testament letters begin or end with an exhortation to or a blessing based on peace. Now, where the world lies is it thinks, yeah, peace is something to value, but you get peace by fixing everything in your life so that you're comfortable, so that you don't have any ongoing ailments, you have a certain level of financial security, all your family members are good with you and they're all following the Lord, the person that you voted for is in charge of whatever government you're most concerned about. And so we think to get peace, we strive to make all of those things come true. But biblical peace isn't situational; it's relational. It's when the Lord comes, he brings his peace. Jesus says, "My peace I give you."

And so in the book -- I know we don't have time to go here in a short podcast -- but I lean heavily on Henry Drummond, who wrote an incredible book a few hundred years ago on the recipe. What does that mean? How then can I experience peace?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no, you got to tell us.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Well, it's really long. But what he says -- again, I'll just try to summarize.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, summarize it.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Restlessness has a cause is what he says. So restfulness has to be understanding the cause of restlessness. And one of the great causes of restlessness is our pride and our ambition. If I don't worry about how others view me, if I'm content with how God views me, then when somebody slanders me or attacks me, I'm not going to lose my peace. If I think my security is based in my reputation or how others think of me and that reputation is sullied, I have no peace.

And so he talks about the humility and gentleness of Jesus. Comes from Matthew when Jesus I said, "I'm gentle and humble in heart." If we're truly humble, we're going to be able to live a life of peace. And then gentleness comes from just not having to put ourselves above others. We don't have to strive above others. That's what demolishes our peace.

So here's an example of that. I talked with a physician, young, successful orthopedic surgeon, originally from East India. He taught internationally. Really good surgeon. He had a patient come in who had a really messed up elbow, and he did the best he could and he knew it was never going to be perfect. And the patient had an enterprising clever lawyer who sued him for malpractice for just $50,000. Now, the reason I say that's clever is that a plaintiff lawyer is going to know that the hospital system is going to say it's going to cost us five times that to defend this. $50,000 is just give me a little bit of money and I'll go away.

But he was at the start of his career, he was teaching internationally. He thought, Am I going to lose my practice? What will this do for my reputation? It'll be on my record forever. And he told me, "Gary, I lost two years of losing sleep, living with anxiety, struggling with anger. How could this guy do this? I know I did a good job." Just this entire sense of disease. Eventually the hospital did settle, they paid the $50,000. And so I asked him -- this had happened a decade prior. I go, "So, Vian, how much did this malpractice impact your career from a scale of zero, meaning not at all, to 100, meaning it was devastating?" And he said, "Yeah, about a negative 10."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Pastor Gary Thomas: But he recognized, "But it cost me two years of not focusing on my family, of living with anxiety, of having this sense of disease." Because he thought peace was situational. If I can fix this, I'll have peace. When he understood that peace is relational, even if it's not okay, I'm okay because I know the one who holds me.

Everybody listening to us can have peace right now. Even if you don't know if the diagnosis is going to be cancer or not, even if you don't know if your loved one's going to get well, if you're going to find the job at the right time, if your spouse isn't going to leave you, all of those things that we think we have to fix so that we can have peace, Jesus says, "No. I bring my peace to you now." It's a glorious recipe to understand that peace is relational, not situational.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's so powerful. That alone right there -- I mean, we could stop now, because that alone right there was just so powerful.

But we're not going to stop right now because I want to hear about entitlement. But before -- I just realized, you know, the listener's probably I'm thinking, okay, I'm into this, I want to know the lies. So there's 12 of them. So if you could just kind of list them. Because I'm hoping that as we listen even to them, we'll be able to identify what might -- at least it'll make us think. And then I want us to move into entitlement. Okay? So list the lies for us, Gary.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Sure. Well, we talked about the first one, Dismantling Restlessness, learning the true path to peace.

The second one I like, Dismantling The Need To Be In Control. Learn the way of the wind. We can't control everything in life. It's sort of -- life in Jesus is more like living in the jungle than on an automated factory line, assembly line. Jesus says, you know, the wind blows where it pleases, you don't know where it comes from or where it's going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

And so for me, I've always tried to control things, but realizing I need spiritual adventure. My marriage needs spiritual adventure. Churches need spiritual adventure. But that means letting God control, not me. That was a wonderful lie to let go of.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: We talked about Dismantling Family First, learning the preeminence of Father God.

This was a big one for me, Dismantling Isolation. That's number four. Becoming relational instead of isolationist.

Dismantling Self-Centered Salvation. I talked about that. That it's not just about waiting for heaven; it's understanding our role of service.

Dismantling The Need For Comfort. Learn the value of adversity. I didn't realize, Jennifer, how addicted I am to comfort. And it's not just surrendering to adversity, but recognizing we all need adversity, whether it's social adversity, physical adversity, emotional adversity, God uses those things to grow us. Instead of trying to make the discomfort go away, sometimes it's about learning what lessons we need to learn through the discomfort.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, good.

Pastor Gary Thomas: I'm not saying you should continue to live with an illness that could be cured or what not, but no longer [audio cuts out].

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Dismantling the demand for a sin-free life and, instead, learning the lessons that struggles against sin can teach us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love this. I need you to take a minute with this, because I think we all feel like we live in defeat if we struggle with sin. So explain this.

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, my friends, I am not sure if I've ever told you this, but I went to Palm Beach Atlantic University in West Palm Beach, Florida, and that one choice, oh, man, it shaped my life in all the best ways. Palm Beach Atlantic is a Christian University located in dreamy West Palm Beach, Florida, overlooking the intracoastal waterway. Oh, it is so beautiful there.

But the most beautiful part is that PBA offers a Christ-centered, academically rigorous education that equips students to lead fulfilling lives through learning, leadership, and service. That's what it did for me, and I want that for you and your people. So check it out at 413podcast.com/pba. All right. Now let's get back to this great conversation.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Well, it was so refreshing reading so many of the Christian classics talking about how the best of us will be tempted the most. Because Satan lets those who aren't doing any damage to his kingdom go free. But Paul says in Romans 7 -- which I believe he was talking about his experience -- "I hate what I do. I don't do what I want to do, I do what I don't want to do." The Bible is clear, there is no one righteous, not even one. That's from Romans. James says, "We all stumble in many ways." James 3:2, "We all" -- that means there isn't exception -- "stumble." Not just occasionally, in many ways.

And so why do I need to learn that? Two reasons that I can think of...

One, learning what lessons I can glean from my struggles against sin, knowing they're never going to go away, so that I can face them instead of deny them. There are some Christian movements that have talked about perfection, but what I find is that they so diminish the concept of sin that they ignore its remaining power.

And I just spoke to a group of pastors last week, and I said the danger is we think if we can avoid the things that might get us fired, if I'm not looking at porn, if I'm not stealing money from the church, if I'm not getting drunk or high, then I'm good against sin. But Paul says in Colossians 3, take off anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, and lying. How many times does that slip in? He said, and then put on -- this is what holiness is -- compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, and love. It's a sin to be impatient. It's a sin not to be kind. It's a sin to be judgmental over compassion.

The reason we want to get rid of a lot of the quick physical sins is so that we can become more aware of, I think, some of the spiritual sins that are polluting our souls, damaging our relationships, impairing our ministry, so that we could be the holy people God has called us to be.

The second part of that is so that I live with Jesus as my hero. I will never be the hero. There's only one hero in Scripture, and that's Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Every major figure in Scripture was embarrassed and had their clay feet exposed except for Jesus. Even John the Baptist. We didn't see him sin, but then he had to ask his disciples, Is he really the one? Can you ask him? I think he might be.

But Paul talked about his great struggles. Abraham has to live with eternity people knowing he offered his wife to two men just to save himself. Peter's humiliations are there. David lives with the fact that everybody knows he had his share of issues. But we all find refuge and grace and acceptance in Jesus. And so we don't have to present ourselves as the hero to our church, to our spouse, to our kids, we point to the One True Hero who is Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And that took a while for me to get over that one, to accept and to be public. Yeah, I'm going to struggle with this, I'm going to struggle with that. But it really did help me understand there's much more to sin than the two or three ones we focus on.

And second, living with Jesus as the hero and not me being the hero.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Because if we could pull it off on our own, we'd be our own hero. And, yeah, there's something about it, constantly acquainting it -- acquainting -- when we struggle with sin, it acquaints us with our need for Christ and draws us toward it.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah. But I know for me, I think, oh, here we go again, one more defeat. But I'm going to look at it more as an invitation to just press into Jesus and receive the grace and be grateful he's the hero. That's really good, Gary.

I don't even know how many you listed. How many you got left there?

Pastor Gary Thomas: There was seven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay,

Pastor Gary Thomas: Eight is Dismantling Apathy Toward The Church. I think this is a common one. They say, I love Jesus, I can't put up with his church.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. I've heard it a million times.

Pastor Gary Thomas: But to love Jesus is to love his bride. Jennifer, I know you have a great marriage, too. I've met your husband, he's wonderful. But if somebody said, Gary, I love you, I just hate your wife, I don't want anything to do with her, I'm like, well, yeah, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, we don't love each other. Hmm-mm, no.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And it's recognizing Paul's attitude. I'm a servant of the church, I work hard for the church, I go through all of these Scriptures. We have a mercenary attitude. What can the church give me? And Paul was the opposite. We want to suck the marrow out of a church and then we leave for a better church, quote/unquote. Paul was like, no, I will give my blood. I will donate my blood for the health of the church. And he did. He went from being the persecutor to the persecuted to serve the church. And so we have to dismantle apathy toward the church.

Nine, Dismantling A Materialistic Worldview, learning to worship a supernatural God. It's really a chapter about angels.

Jennifer, I'm embarrassed how little I've spoken or written about angels. Because they're so lampooned and they're so misunderstood. But when you go from Genesis to Revelation, how every major work of God, angels were heavily involved. And the New Testament teaching, the angels are still involved. And sharing stories of contemporary saints that had experiences that have no other explanation than angelic influence. Remembering angels helps you go on the offense instead of playing defense. That it's a special thing that says if you put your hope in God, then he will send his servants to protect you. In the New Testament we're told that angels are sent as servants for those who follow God.

And so one widow who read the book told me, "Gary, I cried tears in this chapter because when my husband died, I felt so vulnerable. I'm a senior citizen, a woman alone. And realizing that these are powerful warriors that God has sent to protect me," she goes, "I've never lived with this assurance before." So when we're embarrassed to talk about the reality of angels, we withhold a lot of good, a lot of comfort from God's people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, that alone is worth reading. I'm not -- I don't do angels much. Like, when you were describing that, I thought I need to read that chapter. Okay, that's powerful.

Pastor Gary Thomas: It blew me away, Jennifer. It was ignoring something that had no business to be ignored. If Scripture emphasizes something as much as it does angels, we should emphasize it.

I grew up in a denomination that you'd be afraid of demons and demonic possession and this or that. For every mention of demons in the Bible, there are about six or seven mentions of angels. So if we preach according to Scripture, we'll mention angels six or seven times for every one time we warn people about demons.

Jennifer Rothschild: Word. Good.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Okay. Ten, Dismantling The Allure of Earthly Splendor, learn the rich toward God life. How the world views us, what the world values is so opposed to what God values and what God will reward in eternity that we just have to become like those horses that run with blinders, where we don't even -- we're just not looking at earthly glory, we're looking for what God pleases. That really helps me with what I value.

We're going to talk -- maybe I've run out of time, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, you haven't.

Pastor Gary Thomas: -- Dismantling A Sense of Entitlement and learning what it means to be rescued.

The last and 12th one is last but not least. It's Dismantling Complacent Ignorance and learning the value of wisdom. We can understand the Gospel in five minutes. But Proverbs tells us wisdom is worth more than gold and silver. And, Jennifer, I could say this gently to your many listeners. How many of us spend far more time thinking about how we accumulate a number for retirement more than will I be wiser at the end of this year than I was at the start of the year?

Scripture says we should value wisdom over wealth. And it says it may cost you. Though it costs all you have, get understanding. It'll cost us some screen time. It may cost us some frivolous entertainment. But it says it will exalt us. The best thing we can give to our spouse, one of the best, most wonderful things we can give to our kids is greater wisdom that we could share with others. And so I've just found that we just don't value the accumulation of wisdom as much as Scripture says we should.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So what I'm loving about this, Gary, a lot of times when we're talking about lies, they're just more on the shallow end, we splash around on the shallow end. And they're lies about our identity or things like that. Which is very important. I am not in any way diminishing that. But what I love is you dove right into the deep end and you're getting at the real stuff of life, the core of who we are. And so I just can tell, I can't wait to read this. I'm so appreciative of what you're sharing here.

And so you did mention the entitlement. Okay. So I want to know about that, because you struggled with it yourself. But I also want to know how, like, it is -- because I think you even say it's like the greatest spiritual trap of our age. So give us an idea of what that means and why it's such a big deal.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Nobody likes to think of themselves as entitled. But as a pastor, when I talk to people, entitlement comes out. And what entitlement is -- it comes from a sense that life should be this way. God owes it to me. If I'm faithful to him, that he'll fix this or change that. And that if life isn't the way we want it to be, that God hasn't already given us more than we should deserve.

So I've talked to some singles in their 30s and they say, Look, I've kept myself in shape, I haven't compromised by marrying -- considering marrying a nonbeliever. I'm responsible financially, I'm a good relational person. God hasn't brought somebody for me to marry. I feel like I did my job keeping myself pure, living a responsible life. How come I'm still single? Or parents. Look, we trained our children up in the way of the Lord, we brought them to church, we prayed with them. The Proverb says to do that. We have a couple children that aren't following the Lord. We did our part. How come God hasn't done his?

I've even seen people use their sin and blame God. Look, I should be able to spend everything I make, run up debt on the credit card, never save for retirement or emergencies because God says he will provide for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, all I need.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And so when finally the bottom drops out, where is he?

And even -- this might sound extreme, but here it is. A guy wouldn't put it in these words, but basically he's saying he's entitled to drink and then drive, but not get a DUI, because he would say, Well, I don't know that I've ever done it before. I didn't think I was that drunk. I know people all around me who don't go to church, who don't tithe, that have never once been pulled over. Why couldn't God give me a break? And that entitlement thinking comes from us not realizing what God has already saved us from.

And I use this powerful story from Fyodor Dostoevsky, the great Russian novelist, who almost never got to write any of his novels. Because when he was in his 20s, he was arrested. He had just done some non-fiction pamphlets for what the Russian government called anti-government activities. And so they sentenced him to a firing squad. So here he is in his 20s looking down the barrel of a gun, that in seconds would take away his life, thinking it was all over, and then there was a last-minute reprieve and they sentenced him to four years in a Siberian labor camp.

Now, we laugh about a Siberian labor camp like it's the worst thing you could imagine, because it kind of is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Nine months of winter, no days off, heartbreaking labor. But Dostoevsky had a sweet spirit, and it came through his other novels, because he didn't compare being in a Siberian labor camp to being in Santa Barbara. He compared it -- I should be dead. And he realized that.

And if we Christians would recognize the fate that God has rescued us from, eternal separation from him, and what that world would [audio cuts out] like that, that we would have to live life without the comfort of the Holy Spirit, without the affirmation of God, living under the wrath of God. That we would have to live being slaves to our sin, not having the power to say no to our sin. If we would see what we've been rescued from, then we would recognize whatever situation we're in, God has treated us better than we deserve.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Pastor Gary Thomas: We talked earlier about going into Scripture. The Bible is honest. It says what we can expect is that our sin without Jesus would separate us from God. That's Isaiah 59:2. Accordingly, we deserve the wrath of God, Romans 1:18. We're told that we live in a fallen world where relationships will be hard, Genesis 3:16. The struggle against sin will be fierce and ongoing, Romans 7:15. The non-believing world will persecute us, John 15:18. And according to 1 Corinthians 15, our bodies will get sick and experience death.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: The Bible is honest, this is what you will face. Jesus doubled down when he said, in John 16:33, "In this world, you will have trouble." And Paul set the bar very low when he said in 1 Timothy 6:8, "If we have food and clothing, we will be content with that." And so Paul said, That's all I need, if God feeds me and I'm clothed. I might be sick. He had, you know, that thorn in the flesh. I might have people that want to kill me, I might have no finances set aside, but I've learned how to be content with that. And when I realize what the Bible promises and what I expect, it raises a sense of gratitude and worship.

I was -- and I know you spend a lot of time in hotels, as I do, Jennifer. It's what we do when we travel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: I was in a place and it was the worst shower of my life. It was either scalding hot or freezing cold. Have you ever had that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes. Yes.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And then when I got out, I realized the worst shower I've ever had is better than the best shower the Apostle Paul ever had.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Who lived in prisons, who was in the open sea for an entire night. Who was hunted and persecuted his entire life. I live with such entitlement, which robs me of gratitude. It robs God of my worship where I would be exuberant. We've got to get away from a sense of entitlement and to remember what we've been rescued from already.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. You know, and when I hear you -- you know, of course, I can identify. We all can. And so I can say this about me, and anyone who wants to agree can. But for me, when I have an entitlement mentality, it's because I'm selfish. Bottom line, it's all about me. And I've told my boys growing up, selfish people are not happy people. You want to be unhappy? You get really into yourself and you're going to be the most unhappy person. And when you think about it, you're never happy when you've got an entitlement mentality. You just aren't.

And then I also think, Gary, of Job. I mean, how can you read the Book of Job, right? He says, "Though you slay me, yet will I praise you." Right there is our standard. That is the standard for not having an entitlement mentality.

Okay, my brother, this is so good. I could talk to you forever. And I know my people are getting your book because -- just hang on, 4:13ers. We're almost done here. Because then you can go to the Show Notes and get the book. But I'm going to get to our last question, Gary. Okay?

Pastor Gary Thomas: All right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So someone listening, they're like, okay, wow, I have recognized a lie, or two, that they believed. Okay? So what do they do now? When this podcast ends, what is the very first thing that they can do to begin the dismantling?

Pastor Gary Thomas: Well, I don't want to sound like a shameless huckster, but it's why I wrote the book. That we could discover the lies that we -- like margarine and butter, you know, or wait an hour before you go swimming after you eat -- that we followed slavishly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: First we have to not be conformed to the pattern of this world. Identify the lie. Then Paul says, Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Find out what the truth is that the lie is trying to cover up. What is the power that the lie is trying to keep you from? So we talk about entitlement. That lie will keep you from gratitude and worship. I believe when entitlement drops, happiness rises. The lie that you have to fix your life, that peace is situational, is actually keeping you from one of the best blessings of being a Christian, experiencing true relational peace.

So it's -- we don't often know what the lie is, and that's part of the purpose of the book, is to help you identify, man, I believe that, and, oh, I fell into that, and, yes, I never considered that, so that then we cannot be conformed to the world, but can be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, man, as soon as I finished this conversation with Gary, I downloaded his audiobook. He reads it. And I just sped through, like, two chapters while eating peanut butter and jelly. I mean, it was amazing. So before my conversation with Gary, I had only been able to skim it. And, wow, I'm so glad I am getting to listen to every single word in the audiobook. It is so good, you guys.

Okay. In fact, let me just give you one quote from the beginning. If there's one thing Gary says that a Christian cannot take for granted, it's the truth. What we believe impacts us emotionally, spiritually, relationally, and physically. Okay, right? See what I mean? This is why we want to unlearn these lies.

KC Wright: So, so good. So let's review real fast. He said identity those lies, our people. Find out the truth that the lie is covering up. Get in the Word. Read Gary's book and you can un-conform yourself to the world --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that phrase.

KC Wright: -- and be transformed by the renewing of your mind one truth at a time.

See why you need this book? We'll have a link to it at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/385. And as usual, you can enter to win a copy at Jennifer's Instagram. So go there and enter to win it. And if you haven't, please leave us a review. Your reviews about the podcast really do make a difference.

Until next week, our people, we love you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we do.

KC Wright: Feel the podcast hug.

Jennifer Rothschild: Feel it.

KC Wright: You can unlearn those lies and replace them with truth, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what? Somebody -- one of my friends said, "You should get a "4:13" as your tattoo."

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I was like, "I love that, but I still think I'm going to stick" -- you know, I wanted the "It Is Well."

KC Wright: "It Is Well."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I mean -- now, I will tell you, you pay more per character, so it was a little more expensive than four colon one three, but, you know. Hey, all those of you out there are thinking now you're inspired. Max has done it, Joyce Meyer, Jennifer Rothschild. Come on, come on.

KC Wright: Jeremy Camp.

Jennifer Rothschild: Jeremy Camp. Well, he's cool. He's got nice arms.

KC Wright: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I don't. I'm going to -- like, hmm-mm.

KC Wright: No, you do have nice arms.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Well, yeah, mm-hmm.

KC Wright: But "It Is Well" -- "It Is Well" is more meaningful for you because --

Jennifer Rothschild: Big time.

KC Wright: -- every time I see that phrase, I think of you because of your quote. "It may not be well with my circumstance, but it's well with my soul."

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: I love it.