4:13 Podcast: Can I Worry Less? With Jonny Ardavanis [Episode 358]

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: It is only when we recognize that God gives us the power to overcome this worry, because it is sin, that we can move forward in, first of all, confession, then repentance, and then hopefully a life of trust and joy. Because the opposite of worry is not just not worry; the opposite of worry is trust, joy, and dependence. And so -- because God's will for our life is not just to not be worried, it's to live a life of trust, even if we're walking through the valley of the shadow of death.

Jennifer Rothschild: A recent study found that over 40 million adults struggle with some form of anxiety or worry. You might be one of them. Or maybe you love somebody who deals with anxiety. But let's face it, all of us worry from time to time.

Well, today's guest, Jonny Ardavanis, is going to show you how God's consistent character provides the firm foundation that you need to overcome anxiety's many symptoms, you know, like fear and melancholy and uncertainty, and even confusion. You are about to experience pastoral compassion and biblical clarity as Jonny gets really honest about the daily anxieties that we all deal with. He's going to reveal the importance of not just believing in God, but believing God.

So let's put anxiety and worry on notice. They are not welcome here anymore. Let's get started, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, everybody. That's KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And I'm Jennifer, just here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. We're having such a nice summer around here. I hope you are too.

But y'all need to know about this because it was really special. Okay. So my husband --

KC Wright: Yes?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for 2025 was one of Springfield, Missouri's men of the year.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that the coolest?

KC Wright: I didn't even know this.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Well, now you know.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: That's big.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's quite an honor.

KC Wright: It's quite an honor.

Jennifer Rothschild: Quite an honor. So KC and I are going to let you in on this audio picture --

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of KC seeing what I did for the dinner because I couldn't be there.

[AUDIO PICTURE]

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, KC, I'm going to show you the bobblehead.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, I have it hiding in the closet.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I want you to see it, because I haven't shown Phil, and I have to hide it. Okay, come in the closet. Hold on, let me move all my goods.

KC Wright: Okay. You've got treasures.

Jennifer Rothschild: I've got treasures.

KC Wright: Treasures.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right.

KC Wright: There are treasures to be had and seen. Okay, there's the box.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's the box.

KC Wright: Oh, I see it's wrapped. What in the world? Okay, I am holding a bobblehead of J.R. I have never -- this is kind of freaky. It looks exactly like you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what Kenzie said. She goes, "It's amazing and creepy all at once."

KC Wright: Okay. It is your total style: brown boots, jeans, a cute jacket. But they even have the red in your hair. Your lipstick is on point. Your beautiful white pearly teeth. Your earrings. This is weird.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: But it's so stinky cute. It is a little mini you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, what I like about it is, man, they make me look tall. Even though it's a bobblehead, the scale. Look how tall it -- I look like I'm 5'8". I'm like, I like this.

KC Wright: Oh, my word. This is impressive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that funny?

KC Wright: But it's weird. It's so real.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, KC, behave or she might show up on your doorstep.

KC Wright: Okay, but seriously, we need -- we need -- we need a -- I need to get me one, and we can put these on the table at our 4:13 Podcast booth --

Jennifer Rothschild: We should.

KC Wright: -- at our Fresh Grounded Faith --

Jennifer Rothschild: We should. Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: -- so there can be one of me. But I want mine to be really buff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, go ahead.

KC Wright: And then -- yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Get ChatGPT to create you your buff image and we can stand next to each other and bobble our heads.

KC Wright: People can get pictures of this with -- my goodness. It's amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it will.

KC Wright: It's so cute. I love it.

[END OF AUDIO PICTURE]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. I knew that I wanted to just surprise KC with it so that he could surprise you with it, because there's nothing like KC's unfiltered reactions to anything.

So, yes, you can get bobbleheads made. And so Kenzie, my assistant, she got this bobblehead made of me in what she calls my uniform, which was, as KC described, my burgundy jacket and my burgundy shoes. And it even has the burgundy in my hair. We'll have a picture of it on the Show Notes. But yes, so my little bobblehead, it sat at the dinner to surprise Phil, because I couldn't be there because I was speaking in California that night.

So anyway, now, KC, you just never know that bobblehead might show up on your doorstep, I think I'm going to haunt my children with the bobblehead, and we're just going to have a Jennifer bobblehead showing up in all these random people's lives. It's going to be hilarious.

KC Wright: I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Isn't that the greatest?

KC Wright: I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway, so if you don't want your people to worry, just say, "Here, Mom will be with you all the rest of your days." They'll be like, "No thank you, no thank you." Anyway...

But we are talking about worry today. And this Pastor Jonny's going to just do such a great job with being very practical about it. So let's get on with it, KC.

KC Wright: I love that there's never a boring day in your life. I love it. I love it. It's the little things.

Jonny Ardavanis is the lead pastor of Stonebridge Bible Church in Franklin, Tennessee, and he's the founder and president of Dial In Ministries, a ministry that provides biblical resourcing for the next generation. He lives in Franklin, Tennessee, with his wife, Caity, and their three beautiful daughters. Now, at the risk of sounding like Ed McMahon --

Jennifer Rothschild: I knew you were going to do that.

KC Wright: -- at the risk --

Jennifer and KC: Here's Jonny.

Jennifer Rothschild: I knew you were going to do that.

KC Wright: And all the younger people are like --

Jennifer Rothschild: What?

KC Wright: -- what's that? What? What? It's Johnny Carson. Look him up on YouTube.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, before you were born.

All right, Jonny, we are going to start with what I call the big W: worry.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's just start with the hard stuff, worry, because we all do it. Well, not all of us recognize that we do it. Most of us worry. So what's the root of worry? Let's just start with that. What's the root of it?

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Well, I think there would probably be different roots for worry based upon, you know, what you're worried about. I think sometimes it's helpful to provide at least a little bit of a definition of terms when we're talking about worry as it relates to a biblical perspective. You know, one of the things that's interesting, Jennifer, is that the same word in the Bible is used to describe and denote a godly concern, but also what could be an ungodly worry. The word is "merimnao" in the Greek, and it comes from this idea of a divided mind.

And so I think sometimes -- it's interesting, Paul says that he's sending Timothy to the Church of Philippi because there's no one else that has a concern for their well-being like Timothy. And in that scenario, that concern is a good and godly thing that's driving Timothy to action. But in Philippians 4:6 we read, "Do not be anxious," or worried, "for anything." And so the question is how do I know if I have a godly concern or maybe what could be an ungodly worry?

But I think even when -- going back to your question about the root causes. A lot of what may be legitimate cares and concerns can become a sinful worry when we don't go about it in a biblical or godly way, where we fixate on the problems and pressures rather than entrusting ourselves to the sovereignty of God, which means his rule and his reign, without maybe casting those burdens upon the Lord. That's 1 Peter 5:7. And so there could be a variety of different root causes.

But ultimately, when we don't carry those things to the Lord, we become maybe sinfully crippled by them, not in a way to cast shame necessarily, but we need to understand worry as it is in the Scripture. That when we dwell on the problems and pressures of life -- you know, that's what Jesus says in Matthew 6. What will we eat? What will we drink? What will we wear for clothing? When we dwell on those things, rather than dwelling on the character of God, we become crippled by those worried thoughts and it's actually -- you know, it's not living in light of who our God is as Father.

There's other root causes that even Jesus gives out in Matthew 6 for what we may be worried about. Because I just mentioned some of those elements that are just routine: what are we going to eat, what are we going to wear for clothing, what are we going to drink? Right before Jesus gets to that prohibition do not be worried in Matthew 6:25, there's a -- he starts that section -- that's a sermon on anxiety -- by saying, "Therefore, don't be worried." And if you've grown up in the church or have been in the church for any length of time, you know that when you see, "therefore," you ask the question what's the "therefore" there for? And it forces us to draw from what's been previously said by Jesus.

And before I mention what was previously said by Jesus, it's important to note that if Jesus was going to show up on your podcast, Jennifer, and you were to ask him about the subject of anxiety and worry, he would say the same thing he said 2,000 years ago. He would have nothing novel, nothing new to say, because what's in God's Word is timeless. It's relevant for today. And so when we look back at what God says in his Word, we need to view it as authoritative and powerful and comforting and compassionate and needful for us.

So with that being said, Jesus says, "Therefore, don't be anxious," and it forces us to look back at the preceding verses. And at least in my mind, we can look back starting with verse 19 where Jesus says, "Don't lay up for yourself treasures on earth, where neither moth nor rust" -- or "where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourself treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroy and where thieves do not break in and steal." Now, five verses later he's going to say don't be worried.

But Jesus draws the parallel that often when you take a good thing and you make it an ultimate thing, that thing becomes a treasure. And whatever you treasure grabs your heart, and that presents all of the necessary recipes for anxiety and for worry. So, for instance, you can take a relationship -- which could be a very good thing. But when you idolize a relationship and you set it up on a pedestal above your relationship with God, that relationship can make you worried and you could become crippled by that. So if you're just entering the Great Physician's office -- that's Jesus himself -- and you're worried, he's going to say, "What do you treasure?" What do you treasure? Because what you treasure often becomes the thing that you're worried about.

But as the Great Physician, he's going to ask more than one question. Because in the next verse, he's going to talk about the eye being the lamp of the body, in Matthew 6. He says if your eye is full of darkness, then your whole body is going to be full of darkness. And so right before he talks about anxiety, Jesus asks the question, what are you looking at? And I think it's relevant in our world that's often narcissistic, hyper-gossiping, hyper-sexualized, consumeristic -- you know, people spend seven hours a day on their phones. And if not looking at explicitly sinful things, they're maybe looking at things where they're not able to, as Paul says, take every thought captive that they might honor God, and so...

Even amongst young people today, Jennifer, there's obviously the growing correlation between what we look at on our phones, on our screens, with the anxiety and the worry that we face, because right now we hardly have time to process even one tragedy before another one is confronted, thrown before our very eyes. We used to have to read the newspaper every 24 hours, but now it's every -- every refresh with our thumb, we're just confronted with new tragedies, new things to worry about, new fears to face. And so Jesus just says, "What are you looking at?" Because what you look at with your eyes is not a matter of isolation as it relates to the worries that we face in our mind.

And so Jesus asked the first two questions, What do you treasure? What do you look at? And then the third question would be -- Jesus just asks, Who or what is your master? Because in the verse prior to saying, "Therefore, don't be worried, don't be anxious," Jesus says, "No one can serve two masters. You will either hate the one or despise the other" -- and you know the rest of the verse. And we may think, man, we don't have any masters, you know, I'm free, or whatever it may be, but you could be mastered by bitterness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Corrie ten Boom talks about that a lot. If you know her story, she was in the concentration camp. And she would just say that part of the recipe for her anxiety and worry over the years is she was mastered by bitterness against those who had wronged her in the concentration camp. And she draws to mind Hebrews 12 that says, "Let no root of bitterness spring up within you that it would defile you." So when you're angry at people and you're bitter at them, that often is a catalyst for anxiety.

You could be mastered by unconfessed sin, Jennifer. In Psalm 32 you have David who says that he's so despairing, it feels like his bones are breaking. And he says that the reason he feels this despair and this worry and this fear is because he wasn't acknowledging and confessing his sin to God. You know, a lot of times when I talk to young people that are really worried or anxious, or whatever it may be, it's actually because they're hiding something from others and they're trying to hide something from God. And so you could be mastered by a number of things. But the Great Physician, he sits you down in his office, he says, What do you treasure? Who do you treasure? What are you looking at? And who or what is your master?

And then he gets to the remedy that we can talk about more. But those are the root causes of anxiety or worry that we see in the Scripture. There are other physical factors as well that we could mention. Even with Elijah, you know, before God ever proclaims his character to worried Elijah, he gives him a nap and a snack --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: -- because we're both body, soul, and mind, as Martyn Lloyd-Jones talks about. But those would be kind of some of the different recipes for worry.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's really good. And, boy, does it resonate. I mean, it really resonates. And if I were going to very -- without elegance summarize into a sentence what you basically said, it is it's what you're fixating on, it's what you're dwelling on.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Correct.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I was going to ask you -- and I'm still pondering the question -- is worry a sin? And so before I ask you to answer that, it would seem to me, based on what you just explained, that it's almost like what gets you to worry is where the sin's happening, and the worry's the manifestation. And so I want you to answer the question is worry a sin, but not for the sake of condemnation, but for the sake of clarification. Because we're about to get to some really good news and we know how the Great Physician gives grace. But is worry a sin?

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Yeah, I think if you're just looking at it from a biblical sense, it's an imperative to not worry. And so I think that's why I wanted to provide at least the definition first. If you're describing worry as when you become crippled by the pressures and problems of life and you're dwelling on maybe the unknown, rather than the revealed character of God, that causes you to doubt who God is as Father, that is a sin. Because Jesus says in Matthew 6, then you're acting just like the Gentiles who don't know God.

And so it's actually, Jennifer -- even referencing back to Corrie ten Boom, you know, a godly woman, she would say this is actually so important. And I think even using the word "worry" is very appropriate because, you know, sometimes people get hung up on other semantic, you know, anxiety or worry. I use the word "worry" often because -- Corrie ten Boom said it's once you identify worry as an assault to God's kindness as our Father that you can actually be liberated from it. But once you -- if you're rationalizing worry as no biggie, then you're trying to kill a lion with a squirt gun. It's only when you recognize that this is an assault to who God is, it's offensive -- it would be like my daughter waking up every day and looking at me and saying, "Dad, are you going to give me dinner tonight?" That would be hurtful to me because I love her and I'm her father.

So, yes, it's a sin because it's a lack of what you said, a lack of trust and faith, Jesus says. He says, "O you of little faith." He doesn't say, "O you of absent faith." It's, "O you of little faith," meaning that the size of our faith is not in proportion to the size of our God. And this is actually liberating, because it's only when we recognize that God gives us the power to overcome this worry, because it is sin, that we can move forward in, first of all, confession, then repentance, and then hopefully a life of trust and joy. Because the opposite of worry is not just not worry; the opposite of worry is trust, joy, and dependence. And so -- because God's will for our life is not just to not be worried, it's to live a life of trust, even if we're walking through the valley of the shadow of death.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that. Because, really, it is all about the yes, not about the no.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Correct.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not about the no worry, it's an invitation. In fact -- okay, I'm going to ask you about an invitation, so hold -- let me hold that thought. But I want to clarify one thing also as we move on. So you mentioned the same Greek word shows up in a godly concern and in a worry. Okay?

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how do we know the difference in our life when we're just a very passionate carer about all things and when it has crossed the line to worry?

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: You know, I think that's a great question, that depending on maybe the particular item that you're worried about, you know, there's a level of discernment that you need to navigate. In the book "Consider the Lilies: Finding Perfect Peace in the Character of God" that I recently wrote, Jennifer, I use the example of when we pool our anxieties. I used to work in the Sequoia National Forest. And we would go down into Kings Canyon and there are these little stagnant pools where the water is no longer flowing, and it becomes kind of mucky with algae.

But when we pool our anxieties, rather than channeling them towards God, that's when you can know that something has become sinfully anxious, because we're bearing our burdens rather than carrying them straight to the Lord, who has promised to bear them for us. And we can kind of pretend or delusionally think that we're the sovereign in our life that, you know, is going to solve everything.

And there is a level, Jennifer, where you can become -- you do need to do certain things that you're worried -- you know, like -- or concerned about. Like, if a father -- for instance, I got to provide for my family. Waking up early to go to work to provide for my children and my wife and to pay our mortgage. And sensing the pressure and then going to do something about it, but ultimately trusting that God has promised to meet every need of mine in Christ Jesus, that's not a sinful worry.

But when I become consumed with that problem and pressure, then -- first of all, I also don't really do much about it. Or I maybe, on the flip side, do so much about it that I think that I'm the ultimate provider for all of my needs and stop failing to see that God is the one who's promised to meet my every need in Christ Jesus and he's the one who's already said that he knows our needs before we even mention them.

In Isaiah he says, Before you call on me, I will answer him. So part of it's our perspective. We work and we provide for our family because that's something the Lord has for us.

But when we do that and we think, I provide for 99%, and when I'm in trouble, I call God as a divine cop-out and a divine 911, that's when we kind of are almost asserting ourself as our own god in our life because we're bearing our burdens rather than casting them, as 1 Peter 5:7 says.

Jennifer Rothschild: And the visual image you gave of the pool versus the channel is also such a good way to contemplate that, because -- I think now I recognize where you're going with this. Because in your book you do talk about worry being an invitation. Okay?

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So an invitation to what?

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Well, it's an invitation to, one, cast those burdens on the Lord. But also an invitation to grow in our understanding of the character of God, which is the main thesis and the main thrust of the book.

Whenever we're worried, whatever we're worried about, it forces us to either go, Man, I know that I'm called to trust God, but -- honestly, Jennifer, growing up in a Christian home, or if you've been in the church for any length of time, sometimes you just got to ask the question, what does that even mean to trust God? Is that just a check box?

But in the Scripture -- and this is the main focal point of what I write about in "Consider The Lilies." There are godly people that struggle with anxiety in the Bible, that struggle with worry. And I think that's worth mentioning, because you even mentioned the -- you know, we're not trying to heap shame on someone --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: -- that worries, because you have -- just as a reference point, you have Moses, maybe the most important person in the Old Testament, who's worried and anxious over the prospect of going to Pharaoh. He says, I can't go. Send someone else. I don't talk good. He says, I have a stutter.

Then you have Elijah, who's the most faithful prophet in the Old Testament. He's going to stand shoulder to shoulder with Jesus Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration alongside Moses. If Moses is the law giver, Elijah is the law's most faithful guardian and witness. And after Elijah slays 850 false prophets, he's going to declare Yahweh alone as God, he's going to call fire down from heaven. In the following chapter, he's sitting under a tree, after he ran from Queen Jezebel, and he begs God to take his life. "I'm done, Lord." He's so despairing.

You have David, who's the man after God's own heart. There's 42 kings in the Old Testament. Only one of them is referred to as the man after God's own heart, and that guy's name is David. He's a warrior, he's a poet. He's a man's man. And yet he's going to say in the psalms that every single night he makes his bed swim with his own tears. Because for ten years of his life, he's running for his life from his father-in-law, Saul. And he's going to ask questions in the psalms. "Where are you, God?"

And then just the final example would be Job, who is referred to in the Scripture as the most blameless man on earth. That's not a bad description. If you're a guy and the Bible refers to you as the most blameless man on earth, that's not a bad description. And he goes through great tragedy, great trouble. He initially responds after his wife and family and well-being are taken away. His wife is still alive, but his kids are all dead, and he's sitting there in the dirt with a shard of pottery scraping his boils while his wife tells him to curse God and die. He responds, "Naked I have come from my mother's womb, naked I will return." But later on in the book, he's worried. He says that the whole tune of his life has been tuned to the sound of mourning, that his life is just one long wail, like, of crying and grief.

And the way that God responds to each of these anxious individuals, to these worried individuals, is never by saying, Let me tell you why this is happening, but by routinely saying, Let me tell you who I am. So to Moses, he says, "Moses, who made man's mouth? Is it not I, the Lord?" I'm going with you, Moses. You need to have a magnified understanding of the character of God. Because if you're fearful over the prospect of going to Pharaoh, then you must not understand the God who's going with you. I am Yahweh." And that's when he reveals his name to Moses.

To Elijah, God proclaims his character once again. To David, God proclaims his character. That's why the psalms are so rich in understanding of who God is. And to Job, after 38 chapters of Job expressing his worry, his anxiety, his fear, God comes out of a whirlwind and says, "Job, gird your loins." And then says, "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning? Are you the one that the lightning taps on the shoulder and asks you where it should strike? Are you the one that tilts the water jars in the heaven? Are you the one that gives the hawk, you know, its ability to soar? Are you the one that gives the lion its mane?" He just goes to Job. And it's with a level of authority and a level of compassion because he knows that we're bruised reeds. He's mindful of our frame, it says in Psalm 103. But he's proclaiming to them -- to these anxious and worried individuals who he is.

And so in the book when I say every anxiety in our life is an invitation to draw near to God, it's because what worry and anxiety actually does for a Christian is wean us from worldly hope and stability. It forces us to draw near to a God who is our refuge. That's why Psalm 46 says, "God is our refuge and our strength." Now, why would you ever need a refuge? Well, you need a refuge when you feel unsafe, when you feel unsound, when you feel like you're in danger. Why would you ever run to God for your strength if you felt like you weren't weak on your own?

And so all of these things -- even when Paul says that after three times praying for this thorn in his flesh to be removed, he says he learned to say that "God's grace is sufficient for me and God's power is perfected in weakness." Paul would have never learned to say God's power is perfected against the backdrop of my human weakness unless he had first learned that he had no strength to live on his own.

And so all of these different -- you know, it's not just the worries we face, Jennifer, it's the trials and the troubles and often the furnace of affliction where we learn to go, God is -- I need God. You know, it sounds so simple, but sometimes we have to learn those lessons through great trials. And that's what trials do, they wean us from this world. They wean us from worldly hope so that we would find our strength, hope, and stability ultimately in the character God in this life. And then also we anticipate that one day -- and this is the final chapter of my book -- he's going to bring us home. He's going to bring us to glory and bring us to himself.

But it's those invitations about the character of God. God is our refuge, he's our strength. And not only that, he's an ever-present help in times of trouble. And then the rational deduction from that, Psalm 46:2, is, therefore, we won't fear. But if you're not running to God as a refuge and strength, and if you don't know his nearness, not just in an objective sense, but in a subjective sense, you will be worried and you will fear.

And so that's the grand thrust, is -- that's why I would say it's an invitation. Because when I'm worried, I'm going, man, what do I need to meditate on upon the character of God to help me in this type of moment? Because it's one thing to pray, "God, help me not to be worried."

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: It's another thing to say, God, help me not to be worried because I trust in your sovereign care and I know that you hem me in, as Psalm 139 says, behind and before you've laid your hand upon me. Help me to know that you're in control of every hair on my head, of every moment I ever breathe. That you're for me, God, that you love me, that you care for me, Lord, and that even your purpose for my life is not just my material comfort or prosperity or safety, it's to make me more like Jesus. And so, Lord, help me to even face every difficulty that I encounter today with a biblical perspective, knowing that your desire for my life is to conform me to your image.

So all of those things -- it even shapes our prayer life, because I think a lot of people, Jennifer, pray, "God, take away my anxiety."

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Just make this go away. Right.

Yeah, but that's a greater hope, because it's also -- sometimes I think, Jonny, we feel like worry is just a dead end. And what you're saying, no, it's a conduit to something better and greater. And so what's interesting is you just took us directly to -- if I were going to simplify -- the antidote to worry is the character of God. It's trusting, knowing and trusting the character of God. So when I say a sentence like that, that sounds overly simple, and some I might even think like, okay, well, just going to God's character when I'm worried, that's like a spiritual brush-off, you know, like putting a happy Christian bumper sticker on the rear end of your car and driving off, like, no big deal.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's get real honest about that. How can focusing on God's character, how can we make that super practical and then see the effectiveness of it?

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Yeah. And I think it's helpful -- you know, because sometimes we don't like the biblical prescriptions.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. We want a formula.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: We want a formula. But this is why sometimes I think that people -- you're the overflow. Your life is the overflow of whatever you feed your mind. Proverbs 23:7, "As a man thinks, he is." Isaiah 26:3, "You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you." Everything in the Christian life is dependent upon the way that we steward our minds. Romans 12:2, "Don't be conformed to this world, but be transformed." How? By the renewing of your mind. 1 Peter 1:13, "Prepare your minds for action." Jesus says, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength."

So how do we get practical about it? Well, it's living your life with a God consciousness in a sense where -- you talked about faith as a -- you know, in the book I use the reference -- or the phraseology of a fixation of your gaze. In Hebrews it says that we're to fix our eyes on Jesus. And so often what we do is we say, God, help me not to be worried today, and then we go and live and consume the world's content for 18 hours a day and then we wonder why we're worried. And the Bible says, well, of course you're going to be worried.

There's no -- that's why even -- you know, Jennifer, I sometimes think about the way that -- you're saying let's get practical. Let's just go back to what Jesus does. He's the greatest teacher, the greatest preacher in human history, and he preaches the greatest sermon in human history on the subject of anxiety.

And people are sitting there on the Mount of Beatitudes in Matthew 6, they're under the ruthless regime of Rome. Sometimes we think, God, how could their worries compare to mine? Well, they were under the regime of Rome. Rome used to crucify men, women, and children for 40 miles leading up to a city that would say, "Don't mess with Rome." It was the Roman Tetrarch Herod who literally chopped off the head of John the Baptist. It was the Romans who killed every single baby boy in Bethlehem when Jesus was born, and it says the wailing was heard around the world. This was a ruthless regime. And Jesus is going to take people under this rule and say, "Don't be worried about your life."

But he doesn't stop there. And that's, I think, an important thing to clarify. There's not just a prohibition, there's the pathway forward. And hence the name of the book. When Jesus wants to get practical with people, he starts to use the imagery of the surrounding environment. And he says, okay, everybody, look at those birds. Look at those birds. Now, do the birds select captains of food acquisition? No, they don't. But your Heavenly Father cares for them. Matthew 11 says not one of them falls to the ground without your Heavenly Father knowing, and two of them are sold for a single cent.

Now, I'm using this example because Jesus is going to articulate and explain that our worry is not because we're thinking too much, it's because we're thinking too little about the character of God. And so he's going to go from the birds and he's going to say, Okay, look at those flowers. Consider the lilies. They neither toil nor spin, yet your Heavenly Father provides for them, and not even Solomon in all of his glory was clothed like one of these. He's wanting to engage their thinking.

So when you're asking how do I get practical, well, there is no pathway forward unless the Christian implements into their life the habit of meditation upon the character of God and dwelling upon them and asking God to take the hammer of his Word and nail these truths down into our life. Because it's not just affirming these, it's experiencing these realities.

And so I think part of that means there's a rhythm of contemplation. And in our ever busy, hyper-trafficked lives, our world has all but eliminated the ability to ponder. And I think that's part of the reason why so many people are so anxious today, is because they may see a truth, glance at a truth, but there's no supernatural peace provided to those who take occasional and momentary glances at truth. Truth is -- or peace is only provided to the person -- Isaiah 26:3 -- whose mind is stayed on God.

And so that's the practical nature. It's not, hey, do these five things; it's fix your eyes on Jesus Christ. And that's an all-day thing. It's not like, hey, wake up in the morning and do this for 15 minutes. That may be a good place to start. But if you take a shower in the morning and then go roll around in mud for 16 hours, you're still going to be dirty.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: And so I think that's kind of the nature of things.

But I would also say that faith is a community project, Jennifer. And I talk about this in the book. Sometimes people who are worried want to battle their worry alone, so they read a book alone, so they pray alone, and then they wonder why their worry isn't conquered by themselves. Part of what God gives to us is the family of God so that we can feed one another the truth, so that we can bear one another's burden, so we can ask people, What are you worried about? and, Oh, don't be worried about that because God's promised to meet your every need in Christ Jesus, and I can actually help you bear that burden. You're looking for a job, let me help you look, or whatever it may be. And then we also get to proclaim the truth to one another. And we can comfort one another, Paul says in Corinthians, with the comfort with which we have received from God.

And so in all these things, if you're talking let's get practical, well, it needs to be contemplative on the character of God. You need to maybe confess ungodly worry. And then you need to link arms with other people within your local church, because the Christian life was never meant to be lived alone. We're supposed to be in a battle together. No one fights a battle by themselves. No one. That's a stupid idea.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: You face the battles every day with your brothers and sisters who are soldiers with you in Christ, and they get to encourage you. I'm thinking of even the worries that I faced. Last year we battled something very significant with the health of our daughter, Jennifer. I mention this in the book. We thought she was going to die. And we were walking through this road and you're going, man, I'm so thankful for the people of God that remind you of the character of God when you're prone to doubt.

And so it's all of those things wrapped up together. And in the book there's reflection questions for each of these different attributes that I mentioned that help drive these truths home. Because, yeah, how do I apply God's love?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: -- you know? And you have to think through that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, what I'm hearing, Jonny -- it's such a rich resource. And I think it's profound in its simplicity, because we do try to overly complicate this stuff and think, well, there's got to be a new way to do this. No. There's the ancient one way, which is the way of Christ.

And so really this is a difficult last question, because what you just gave was such a beautiful -- contemplating the character of God, confessing if you harbored an ungodly worry, and then connect with others in community so we don't do it alone. So we got that.

So I guess I just want to end with this last question, almost more of a pastoral response from you to the woman, to the man, to the person who's listening right now and they're like, okay, wow, I need to -- I want to start somewhere when this podcast ends. And, of course, they're going to grab your book and you're going to walk them through it. But just in the next five minutes as they're processing all of the stuff they just experienced, and they're feeling maybe some emotion of shame because they have been worried, they're feeling an invitation to take that worry and make it a pathway, can you just give a final pastoral encouragement of what their next step needs to be.

Pastor Jonny Ardavanis: Yeah. I think, you know, as far as the shame factor -- I'll just answer that first. I think people need to, first of all, understand that when Jesus died on the Cross, he not only bore our sin, he also bore our shame. So the shame of sin is gone in the sense where there's real guilt, there's real confession. But 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he's faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness," including the unrighteousness of worry or including the unrighteousness of maybe unconfessed sin that facilitates to our worry and anxiety.

And so obviously talking -- we need to preach the Gospel to ourself every day. That would be the first step forward. Because sometimes we try to actually -- sometimes we view the Gospel, Jennifer, as something that we received once upon a time, and we think that was for maybe our salvation, but then we don't think about it moving forward. But it's only in contemplating that we're at peace with God through the finished work of Jesus Christ that we'll ever experience the peace of God day-to-day basis.

And so I think -- first of all, when you're saying what's the pathway forward, well, we need a magnified view of the Gospel. And here's why. That's not overly simplistic, it's not cliché. You know, you think about Paul who is shipwrecked, stoned, whipped, beaten. You know, if you had Paul show up at your church for a special Sunday, I don't think anyone would be impressed by his physical appearance. Because he's probably, you know, a little guy, can't see, broken body, limps up on stage. And you think about what gave Paul peace when he was running for his life. You know, he's going down in baskets. What gave Paul peace? Well, it's just the confidence that he's at peace with God, which means that his greatest need in life had already been met in Jesus Christ.

And when this isn't something that's precious and profound to you, then you are going to be tempted to worry about all these other things. You're going to compare your life to other people, you're going to maybe struggle with materialism. It's in recognizing that -- you know, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, he wrote in the book "Spiritual Depression" that despair over your sin is the necessary prerequisite to joy, meaning you have to -- the only person that experiences the true joy of knowing God through faith in Jesus Christ is someone who's gone, I've come to the end of myself, I recognize my sin, and I see what Christ has done.

And so I start there, and that's one of, actually, my initial chapters, is just to go, hey, if you don't have a firm grasp on the Gospel, you're never going to experience the peace of God. Because if you believe -- you know, you can sing "Amazing Grace" till the cows come home. But you'll never actually believe grace is amazing until you believe the ensuing line of that hymn, "that saved a wretch like me."

If people don't believe they're wretches, they're never going to think grace is amazing. And if they never think grace is amazing, then they're never going to find supernatural peace in the character of God. And the consideration when you think about his holiness and his love, you're never going to think God's love is amazing if you think you did anything to deserve it, you know. And so all of these different factors flow out of our understanding of the Gospel.

Now, in regards to even what's next, I think healthy spiritual rhythms are important as well. Meaning, like, if you're going to remember the Gospel, if you're going to be rooted in the character of God, you can't have your time in the Word and your time in fervent prayer be this peripheral gilding of your life. It needs to be the anchor of your day. And sometimes people -- if someone says, "Well, that's legalistic," no, that's love, you know. If you're going to love God, if you want to know God like a father, like a friend, and not as a thing, you need to commit your way to him. That needs to be a commitment of your life.

And I think, Jennifer -- and I don't want to be over -- I don't want to filibuster here. I think many people know God like a thing. And you can't trust a thing. You trust a person. And so where you need to go from here is to set up practices and rhythms and habits in your life where you foster an actual intimate relationship with God, which means saying no to morally neutral things in your life, or maybe even good things that rob you and prevent you from the best thing, which is knowing God intimately. And that's what Paul says in Philippians 3, "I press on towards the prize." What's the prize? Knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord.

And so I think that -- you know, it's a big goal. How do you do that? The morning, the evening. We do family worship every night as a family. Turn the TV off. This is how we're ending. It could be 15, 20 minutes. Let's sing a song together. Let's read this truth together. Let's meditate on it. I asked my three-year-old, "What does this mean, Lily, that God is with us?" "It means he's never not with us." You know, it's like, okay, well, yeah. But even when she says that, out of the mouth of babes, you're able to go, there's never a moment in my life where God's not with me. And I want to wake up and meditate on these truths and I want to go to bed thinking upon these truths.

And then as I do so, you know, the key ingredient in transformation, Jennifer, is what the Bible describes as the renewing of our mind. And when you feed your mind truth, God, through his holy powerful Spirit, renews our thinking. And when our thinking is renewed, then our faith grows. But I think sometimes people want a flu shot, you know, for transformation, and there's no shot in the arm for transformation. It's gradual growth as we feed and fix our faith on God. And then he renews our thinking day by day, year by year until we meet him face to face.

KC Wright: So here's my summary of how you take the next steps. Preach the Gospel to yourself every day. That means we develop a magnified view of the Gospel. Really contemplate that. Your greatest need in life has already been met in the person of Jesus. Make that truth precious and profound.

Then develop healthy spiritual rhythms. This should be the anchor of your day. Foster your relationships. Say no to morally neutral things that rob you from being the best. Renew your mind. Oh, boy, it's all about the mind. Feed it truth. When you do, God renews your thinking, and renewed thinking brings growing faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that's a good summary.

KC Wright: Well, my summary is not enough. That's why you need the book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, true that.

KC Wright: And you can win one right now at 413podcast.com/358. And also you can read the full transcript of this great, powerful conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And we're also, by the way, going to have links to some books that I actually wrote that are on this topic about renewing your mind called "Me, Myself and Lies." And, of course, they're written for women. It's a thought closet makeover. But I've also written them for teenage girls. It's called For Young Women, but it's really young women 12 to 17-ish. It's for teenage girls.

So let's get this truth in our hearts. Get Jonny's book. Learn how to speak truth to your own soul.

KC Wright: Family, there are so many resources for you to go on the Show Notes and get what you need. We love you, and we mean it. Feel the podcast hug?

And you know what? We're just so thankful for you. Thankful that you hung out with us another week. Share this with someone you know and love. Give us a review, by the way, if you haven't. A good review --

Jennifer Rothschild: Please.

KC Wright: -- please. Get in the Word, get with your people. You can do all these things because you can do all wonderful things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And --

Jennifer and KC: -- you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, may the bobbleheads be with you.

So, KC, can't you just see it? I'm going to put it in one of my children's stocking one year. It'll be in somebody's Easter basket the next year.

KC Wright: Well, yeah. And I say let's get creative with this bobblehead, and it can go international. And maybe 4:13 fans can start taking Jennifer on vacation with them --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my -- like Flat Stanley.

KC Wright: -- and posting it on social media.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: And here's Jennifer in Italy and Ireland and...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. But, you know, really, why take the bobblehead, my friends, when you could just take me? You could just take me.

KC Wright: There you go.