4:13 Podcast: Can I Really Know the Holy Spirit? With Margaret Feinberg [Episode 361]

Margaret Feinberg: It's not a matter of feeling the Spirit, it's a matter of acknowledging the Spirit. And so I think one of the practical ways we can do that is just begin each day and say, "Holy Spirit, I want to know you. Holy Spirit, I want all of you. Holy Spirit, I'm sorry for the lines I've drawn and the boxes maybe I've created that have closed my eyes to you and your presence." And so the heart cries to say, "Holy Spirit, would you make yourself real to me. Help me become more aware of you."

Jennifer Rothschild: Any of these questions sound familiar to you? What role should the Holy Spirit play in my life? Should I feel him? Like, how is the Spirit part of my relationship with Christ? And why doesn't the Spirit's work show up in my life the way it did in the Bible? And why do other believers seem to have a connection with the Holy Spirit and I just don't?

Oh, my friends, even long-time Jesus followers have questions about the Holy Spirit. We can feel stymied and confused. But that is going to end with this episode, because today's guest, Margaret Feinberg, is going to take you on a journey through the Old Testament with a visit to Pentecost to find answers to your burning questions about the Holy Spirit.

Oh, my friends, you can do so much more than know about the Holy Spirit. You can know the Holy Spirit. He is the God you need to know.

So what in the world are we waiting for, KC? Come on, let's go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, everybody. I'm here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. That was my Seeing Eye Guy, that was KC Wright. And here we are, just two friends, and one topic, and zero stress.

And this is one good topic today, because I think lots of believers have questions about the Holy Spirit. And I will tell you, when I had this conversation with Margaret, KC, I learned so much. And I've walked with Jesus for years. And let's be honest, the Holy Spirit -- because, like, maybe you grew up in a church where you called him the Holy Ghost, or you called him -- like, he was an it, not a him. You know what I mean?

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it feels so do do do do, do do do.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, KC, let's just think about this. Do you remember growing up, we would sing songs about the Holy Spirit. Okay? I remember (singing) breathe on me. Now, as an adult, I think it's beautiful. As a kid, I was like (singing) creepy. Do not be breathing on me. What in the world? It made no sense.

KC Wright: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Okay. So I was getting to thinking, though, as an adult, I love songs about the Holy Spirit --

KC Wright: Me too.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we need to sing to him. We need to invite him.

All right. Do you have any Holy Spirit songs you love or that you think about?

KC Wright: (Singing) Holy Spirit, thou art --

Jennifer and KC: (Singing) -- welcome in this place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: (Singing) Holy Spirit -- yeah -- welcome in this place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, okay. Meredith Andrews has one -- what does she -- (singing) Spirit of the living God. Have you heard that?

KC Wright: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's so beautiful. Because he is the Spirit of the living God. I can't think of any other ones right now.

KC Wright: And that's where life change happens in every service, where we welcome and host the presence of the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is not an it, it's a person.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. It's not an it, it's a person? It's not an it, he's a person.

KC Wright: There you go. There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. It's true.

Okay. She's about to tell you something that I have really had to adjust to. So I'm going to give you a spoiler alert. She said we don't call Jesus "the Jesus" --

KC Wright: Oh, come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and we don't call God "the God," but we call Holy Spirit "the Holy Spirit." We need to lose the "the" --

KC Wright: We do.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and have a relationship with him.

So, my people -- I love Margaret. Many of you know this. She and I are friends. We've done so much ministry together in many places, and we get to hang out and have meals together. And I just want you to know that what she's written about in this book, she has lived. To the extent that it was such a spiritual battle at times, she broke out with hives, in hives, writing the book.

But she's done something that I'm not familiar anyone else has done. That doesn't mean they haven't, I'm just not familiar. She traces the Holy Spirit. She traces Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. We think he just shows up at Pentecost. No. He shows off at Pentecost. So you're about to learn a lot and love this. And just get ready -- just get ready to have your show notes open, because you're going to want to order this book right away. She's also got a Bible study out this summer on the book, with videos. You're going to want all of it. Okay?

So, KC, let's get this moving.

KC Wright: Ooh, I'm excited. Margaret Feinberg, one of America's most beloved Bible teachers, speaks at churches and conferences and hosts the popular podcast called "The Joycast." Her books and Bible studies include "Taste and See" and "More Power to You." They have sold more than 1 million copies and have, of course, from that gotten national media coverage from the Associated Press, USA Today, Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, and so much more. She was named by Christianity Today as one of 50 women most shaping culture and the church today.

Margaret savors life with her husband, Leif, and their super pup, Zoom. And the name says it all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Zoom, Zoom.

Margaret is one of our favorites around here, and this is going to be so good. You'll want to listen to it again and again and share with all those in your circle. Settle in, enjoy this rich, deep conversation about the Holy Ghost. Jennifer and Margaret and the Holy Spirit, just for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a good combo.

All right, Margaret, I've already mentioned and talked about this with KC, that you are one of my favorite people in the world. Our 4:13ers also love you. This is, like, your second or third time on the podcast. And so 20 to 25 minutes, which will be our conversation, is just not enough to contain all things Margaret. But we're going to try. Okay? We're going to try.

And we're going to talk about this latest book of yours, which I got to review, as I've already talked about, and I just am so excited about getting it into people's hands. Okay? So the book is called "The God You Need to Know," and it's about knowing the Holy Spirit. And what I love is that you help us see who he is in the Old Testament and where he shows up. That's such a fresh look.

But before we even go there, we need to be really clear. Who is the Holy Spirit? So let's start with a definition. Who is he? Or is he an it? Who's the Holy Spirit?

Margaret Feinberg: Yeah. You know, the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead. It's part of the Trinity. I think there's a couple things that growing up I was taught that I'm having to kind of unlearn a little bit.

The Spirit is the spirit of the living God. And so throughout the Bible, you don't just see, like, well, where Jesus is present, God and the Holy Spirit are completely absent. Wherever you see one part of the Godhead, all are present because they are a Trinity. And, you know, growing up we'd see pictures of perhaps an apple with its skin and its core and its seeds or, you know, a three-leaf clover all separate and yet one.

And yet one of the freshest, for me, ways to see the Trinity is through a word called "perichoresis," which is this idea of a kind of together choreography, and that the members of the Trinity live in kind of this dance with each other, where one may take the lead, but the others are always present. And so the Holy Spirit is not an it.

Within the Bible study teachings, I actually do something really nerdy, and I actually never refer to Holy Spirit as "the Holy Spirit," because we never say "the Jesus" or "the God," right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Margaret Feinberg: You say a person's name, and that is "Holy Spirit." You know, the Spirit is a person, not just an entity, and definitely not an it. And that's important because we get to live in step and are invited to live in step with the Spirit every day.

Jennifer Rothschild: In that sacred dance.

Okay, you're right. I would never call you "the Margaret," you know. You're right. I mean, that is a really -- even that right there is a good paradigm shift for lots of us. He is Holy Spirit. Oh, okay. This is good.

All right. So we often think Holy Spirit doesn't show up until the New Testament, right? Until Pentecost. Because you describe Pentecost as a culmination of the Spirit's work, not like this beginning or introduction. I think often in the church we have thought, well, Pentecost is where he shows up, but really it's almost like that's where he shows off. Okay. So I want you to kind of help us understand this and tell us how this understanding of the Spirit, Holy Spirit being present in the Old Testament, how does this change the way that we can read the Bible?

Margaret Feinberg: Yeah. You know, growing up -- you know, I grew up in the church in a variety of churches. I went to Baptist churches, I went to Methodist, Episcopalian, charismatic, non-denominational. I feel like I'm a spiritual mut. And so in each of those denominations, they would kind of describe or emphasize a different aspect of the Spirit. And some didn't really emphasize any at all.

But so often I was pushed to Acts 2, kind of like -- in the entire Book of Acts, like, this is -- as you say, the Holy Spirit showed off. But what happens is when we jump to that moment, we miss all of the work of the Holy Spirit and presence and power throughout the Old Testament, and we kind of end up with, I mean, just slightly a strange story. Right? Here's Pentecost, they're all together in one place. There's a blowing of a violent wind, it comes to rest on each of them. They're filled with the Spirit, they speak in tongues. Suddenly people can hear them declaring the incredibleness of God. And that is wonderful. The only problem is my daily life does not look like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Margaret Feinberg: And so there may be some people who are listening, and every day for you is an Acts 2 experience, but mine is not.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Margaret Feinberg: And so what took me so long to realize is that, well, Acts 2 is beautiful. When it's plucked out without the rich context of the Old Testament, it can seem a little new or different or strange. But for those who were gathered in that room, they turned to the Jewish Scriptures they already had in hand to understand. They looked to the activity of the Spirit and the biblical heroes and sheroes who had gone before them to make sense of what was happening.

I mean, they knew of the Spirit that in Genesis 2 hovered over the waters, so when those tongues hovered above them, they were not surprised. They knew that in Hebrew, the word for Spirit is "ruach," and "ruach" can be translated "wind" or "breath" or many other things. So when the wind came from heaven and filled the whole house, they weren't surprised at all.

And so as we start to unpack the presence of the Holy Spirit through the Old Testament, we read Acts 2 and we go, of course it would happen this way.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, it reminds me too -- I don't know the story, and I'd love you to share it. But you had some kind of experience where you woke up with Joel 2 on your mind. And obviously there's something in Joel that reminds us of the Holy Spirit's presence. Can you kind of unpack that?

Margaret Feinberg: Yeah. When I was in college -- and I've just always been somebody who's been curious about the Holy Spirit. I remember being a kid and being like, okay, I'm reading this book, the Bible, and I see Jesus doing all these incredible miracles, but I'm not seeing them in my everyday life. Like, I've always just had this hunger to be like, okay, if this book is really real, Holy Spirit, Jesus, just -- I want to see it, I want to know it, I want to know this is really happening.

And I remember in college, I started to study the Holy Spirit, and I was focusing, just in my major, on New Testament studies and looking through. And I was just reading about the Holy Spirit through church history, from those who have different theological perspectives, and in some ways I saw two -- a multiplicity of different perspectives, and I was like, Holy Spirit, I want to know if you're real. I got to know. Like, are you still here? Are you still doing it today?

And I remember one night I woke up in the middle of the night, and it was like this Bible passage was in my mind. And it was just like as loud and clear in my brain, and it was Joel 2. And I'm like, ahh, this is weird. And so I turned on the light, I reached for my Bible, I opened it up and I flipped to Joel 2. And I'm reading along, and I didn't -- at the time I hadn't really looked at Joel 2. Like, if I'm honest, I didn't even know really where Joel was in the Bible. I had to use the Table of Context.

And I came upon this passage in Joel 2:28, and it says this. It says, "I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your old men will dream dreams. Your young men will see visions." And when I read that, I felt like the Holy Spirit was saying, I am here. I am real. This has not gone away. You know, I want a vibrant relationship with you each and every day. And that was really a turning point, because I'd never -- I'd never been woken up in the middle of the night with a Scripture. I don't think I ever have since. But that was that moment when the Holy Spirit just made himself real to me. Like, I am with you. This is real.

And then if you go forward to Acts 2, when, you know -- I think it's Peter stands up to preach. What does he do in the wake of the Spirit being poured out at Pentecost? He quotes Joel 2:20.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And so what I love -- that's what reminded me why I wanted to ask you. Because like you were describing, we don't have these giant Acts 2 moments -- a lot of us don't live there in Acts 2 -- but we can all live in the Joel 2 because the Holy Spirit's presence in our life. Now, see, I'm going to self-correct because you've really taught me something today. Holy Spirit's presence in our life is so real, and he does pour out himself on us and within us. And he does it in a multiplicity of ways, as you mentioned.

Okay. And I want to know because I'm wondering if this is what you have done. Okay? I'm wondering if you have embedded these ways in your book cover. Okay? So this is fun. You were mentioning -- and obviously I haven't seen your book cover. But you have gotten some surprises hidden in your book cover. And I want to know what that is, what's the deal, and what they represent.

Margaret Feinberg: Yeah. What I realized as I began -- I mean, this book took about four, four and a half years of research, so I went long and deep. And what I realized is that sometimes looking for Holy Spirit in the Old Testament is like looking at one of those hidden pictures in the Highlights magazines. And some of your listeners will remember, like, you'd see an image and you'd have to find the chicken leg, and that was like one of the legs of the table.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Margaret Feinberg: You got to look really, really close. And in the same way, that's how it is with the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. And so I wanted to embody that concept in the design of the book and participant's guide.

And so if you start to look closely, there's this floral arrangement with vegetation. But if you look in it, you'll find all kinds of little objects, and each one of them is tied to an image or story about the Spirit that's told in the book or Bible study. So if you look close, you may notice, like, the handle of a sword or a piece of wood or a few little feathers tucked in along the petals of the flowers, or something else entirely. And each piece is meant to be a reminder that Holy Spirit's presence is deeply embedded in the Old Testament. And it's a reminder that the Spirit is in us and working all around us if only we have eyes to see.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. I love the creativity.

I know some of you listening right now are like, okay, I've got to get my hands on that book so you can do the Where's Waldo. And you do need to. You absolutely need to. I can't wait to hear about this, Margaret. That's going to be really fun just to hear how people are finding the treasures, not only within the book, but on the book cover.

But I want to circle back to something that you briefly mentioned. Because you talked about and you mentioned how the Spirit meets us in our mayhem. And that's based on those opening words of Genesis, you know, where the Spirit is hovering over the chaos. So can you kind of unpack that for us? Because there's some of us right now who are living in a little bit of mayhem and we want to know if Holy Spirit can join us.

Margaret Feinberg: That is such a great question, Jennifer. The Scripture opens -- Scripture -- think about this for a second. Genesis 1 could open with anything. And it begins with the words, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now, the earth was formless and void. Darkness was over the surface of the deep."

Now, in Hebrew, that phrase is "formless and empty." In the Hebrew, it's actually the phrase "tohu v’vohu." And that tohu v’vohu speaks of the deep watery abyss. And throughout the Old Testament, large bodies of water were often associated with chaos. And so this -- think about -- this is where the Bible opens. It's dark and chaotic and full of uncertainty and the unknown, and yet that is precisely when ruach, the very Spirit of God, steps on the stage. Verse 2 continues, "And the Spirit of God," the ruach Elohim, "was hovering over the waters."

Now, there are some who interpret this ruach as merely a mighty or a divine wind. But this is so much more. This is the Spirit of the living God. And so rather than withdrawing, the Spirit draws near to the darkness. Rather than retreating, the Spirit advances into the mayhem. Rather than disappearing, the Spirit hovers over the uncertainty and the unknown.

Why does this matter? Because I don't know about you, but I have places in my life that are marked by uncertainty and the unknown that are deep and dark and chaotic. I think we all do. But it's in those spirit and in those places that the Spirit hovers. Can you picture it? I mean, can you picture the Spirit hovering over those places in your life?

In Hebrew, the word that's often translated "hovering" is "merahepet." And its verb tense expresses this continuous, ongoing action. Some translate it as "brooding," like what a bird does for her young. One rabbi, oh, my gosh, even translates it "fluttering." And it tells us that no matter how deep or dark or unformed something may seem to us, the Spirit remains closer than our next breath. No matter what we're facing, we do not face it alone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh, that is beautiful, Margaret. Okay, so that -- like, right there, that is a beautiful truth. I can see it. Okay? But I want to feel it. All right? So I think there's lots of us who are like, okay, I get this in my head, but I want to feel this. Like, I want to feel the flutter, I want to feel the hover, I want to feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in our just, like, daily life.

So here's my question to you. Is Holy Spirit's presence something we can actually feel? And if so -- or just unpack that and then tell us, like, what can we do to become more aware of the Spirit's presence and work within us and around us?

Margaret Feinberg: You know, it's so funny, I struggle -- and I'm speaking to some of the listeners right now. When people say, "Do you feel the Holy Spirit?" I just have to be honest. There are so many days, and most days and most years, I just don't.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same.

Margaret Feinberg: Sometimes when I go to church -- I'll just be honest -- people will say, "Do you feel the Holy Spirit here?" and I'll be like, "No."

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. I'm with you, girl.

Margaret Feinberg: Like, the person -- the Spirit is -- "Can you feel the Spirit?" "No. No, I really don't." And so I think that for us who aren't as feely and touchy-feely -- I know some of you listeners are getting this. Like, it's not a matter of feeling the Spirit, it's a matter of acknowledging the Spirit.

And so I think one of the practical ways we can do that is just begin each day and say, "Holy Spirit, I want to know you. Holy Spirit, I want all of you. Holy Spirit, I'm sorry for the lines I've drawn and the boxes maybe I've created that have closed my eyes to you and your presence." And so the heart cries to say, "Holy Spirit, would you make yourself real to me? Help me become more aware of you." And so I think the first step in that is prayer, and a simple prayer. These aren't complex. These aren't 70 paragraphs long. It's, "Holy Spirit, I want all of you." And I write about this in the book.

I think secondly is to remain attentive. I had a friend, and her husband just died suddenly, and it was so tragic. And she said Mother's Day came along and it was just a hard day. You know, she -- her kids were out of the house, she was all alone. And she looked outside of her window and she watched as a white dove landed in her yard. And she was like, Huh. I've lived in this house 30 years and I've never seen a white dove. And she looked out, and what was fascinating is the dove finally just came up and just perched on her window sill.

And what got even more weird is the dove didn't leave all day. And so she started to thinking, Am I really seeing this? So she calls her neighbor and she says, "Do you see the dove too?" And the neighbor's like, "Yes. Yes, I see the dove." And that dove remained there and stayed actually all night. And the next morning she's looking at this bird and just saying, "Lord, why did you send me -- why did you send me this bird?"

And she sensed the Holy Spirit just pop a thought into her mind that was not her own. And the thought was simply this: "I have sent you my very best, the Holy Spirit, to remind you that are not alone, and I am with you in this."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Margaret Feinberg: And I think that there is this sense that when we start to say, "Holy Spirit, I want all of you," that we start to recognize, like, the Holy Spirit can use anything. I mean, God is creator God. Holy Spirit was present, hovering, right in creation. And the Holy Spirit can use all of creation to reveal the Spirit's presence and draw us closer to the very heart of God and the presence of Christ.

And so to pray each day and say, "Holy Spirit, I want you. I want all of you. I want to be attentive." And to watch, as you pray, what happens? What is there? Do we remain curious with the Spirit? Holy Spirit, what is this? What does this mean as I'm reading the Scripture? Holy Spirit, how do you want to order my steps? Holy Spirit, you know, where are you in this? Holy Spirit, what are you calling me to do today? Holy Spirit, who are you calling me to share your loving kindness with today?

And those prayers aren't magic. What they are is they're changing the posture of our lives to become more attentive to the Spirit's presence every day and to recognize this God that we really, really, really need to know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we do need. I love how you're speaking of Holy Spirit too. It's very relational. It's not theoretical; it's very relational.

And so another way that I believe Spirit speaks to us -- we see it in Scripture -- is through dreams. That's how he often would guide leaders, he would guide prophets. So I'm curious, do you think God still speaks to us now, in these days, through dreams? And if so, like, how can we be okay with that or more receptive to it?

Margaret Feinberg: Yeah. So I think -- let me just start physiologically, because we love - - you and I love the science of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we do. Go, go.

Margaret Feinberg: But physiologically -- we need to recognize that dreams play very important physiological roles in our body and that they help clean out toxins, you know, as we're dreaming. There's a sense that our mind, even when we're asleep, is still trying to piece together what doesn't make sense. And so a lot of times dreams are simply the brain kind of cleansing itself, trying to make sense of things in our lives and in our world. And that's just part of a physiological process.

But at the same time, we recognize that sometimes in dreams there are spiritual elements. Does that mean that dream was definitely from God? You know, it's so fascinating, in the story of Joseph, Joseph clearly has dreams. We can fill in the blank that they were from God, but the Scripture never explicitly says it. But we see the fruit of it.

And so one of the things that I love about dreams -- I think one of the primary gifts is they are prayer prompts. And so even -- whether it's physiological or whether it's spiritual -- and sometimes it's just fuzzy and we don't know -- every dream is an invitation to go to Holy Spirit and say, "Holy Spirit, what are you saying here?" "Holy Spirit, what am I wrestling with in my life?" And sometimes it is just nothing. Sometimes it's a mishmash of just different events in your life. But sometimes it's an opportunity to pray and say, "Holy Spirit, what are you saying through this?"

I remember when Leif and I lived in Juneau, Alaska. I was really sick at the time and having terrible health issues, and they were making me more and more isolated. And one night Leif woke up in the middle of the night, and he grabs me and he goes, "You're still here?" And I'm like, "Yeah. I've been sleeping beside you all night." And he had had this dream that we'd went out to the Mendenhall Glacier and the ice had cracked and I'd fallen through the ice, and I was out of reach and he couldn't save me. And he was just so relieved, like, once he woke up. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. Okay.

And then the second night he had the same dream again. And I thought, okay. Holy Spirit, you have my attention. What are you trying to say through this? And what became clear as we prayed is emotionally in that really sick season, I had fallen through an emotional dark hole, and it was like I couldn't get to the surface. And Leif was out of reach, and the people in our lives were out of reach, and in part because I had been closing them out, because I didn't -- it's hard sometimes when you're sick to let people in.

And I remember that dream became a turning point in our lives where we started really being intentional about re-engaging with people. And sometimes -- I remember even that year going to a Super Bowl party in my pajamas and just laying on the floor in the back as they all watched, but still being there and not cutting off those important relationships that were part of breathing new life into me in that dark time. And so when you have a dream, you can take all of them to the Lord and say, What are you saying through here? What do I need to pay attention? Or was this just silliness, and that's okay too?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right. Was this a word from the Lord or indigestion?

Margaret Feinberg: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And you kind of don't know until you really take it to the Lord and the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is the one who does lead us into truth. So that leads me to this question, Margaret. To me it's a hard thing Okay? So discerning between something that is truly Spirit led and something that is self-led, how do we know the difference?

Margaret Feinberg: It's something that we all wrestle with. I think in the Bible -- and I write about this in the book. But Gideon is my superhero. Like, he gives us all permission to ask God, "Is this really you? Is this really you?" He just keeps doing it over and over. "Are you sure? Are you sure, God? Are you sure?" And so some people like to pick on Gideon for that. And I love -- because what he reveals is that when we're second guessing, when we're questioning, God just stands arms wide open. Holy Spirit is ready to be like, yeah, I'm going to lead you through this.

And in the book, I provide, like, a chart and just some clear questions as you're trying to discern. And some of those questions are things like, is this prompting consistent with Scripture and the character of God? Does this prompting cause me to love God and others more? Will the prompting yield the fruit of the spirit? Does the prompt leave me with a deep sense of peace? Does the wise godly counsel affirm this prompting? And as we start to ask these questions, we start to sort through.

And along with that, I provide some just real practical things. Number one, if you're trying to discern the Spirit's leading in a decision, like, don't wait till it's an epic decision like who you're marrying or what house you're going to buy. Practice on the little everyday things. Because then you grow a track record with the Spirit and that sense of sorting through and knowing.

And secondly, know that sometimes you're going to go through a list of questions like this and you're going to step forward and nothing happens. And you know what? That's okay. Sometimes you may even look back and go, Man, that was the wrong thing. But you know what? God is big enough in his grace and his love to cover it. And how much better to be a follower of Jesus, so attentive to the Spirit that you're willing to take that risk and that step than to be a believer who never steps out at all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. This is solid as a rock. I want our 4:13ers to get this book and the Bible study, do it with a group. It's just really solid, Margaret. And this is the God we need to know. Probably the most neglected member of the Trinity. And if we're really going to know God and love him, know Jesus and love him, then we got to know the Spirit and love the Spirit, because they are all three in one.

We're going to have to end this conversation just because of time. Because I could listen to you all day. This is so rich and so deep. But let's just end with something very practical. All right? When it comes to this God, we need to know Holy Spirit in our life which we want relationship with, we want to be attentive to, we to pray to, we want to understand. If you could just leave us with one challenge, what would it be?

Margaret Feinberg: I would challenge you to start looking for the Holy Spirit throughout the Old Testament. All of a sudden you are going to start to see the Spirit all over the place, in the lives of men and women leading and guiding, nudging and prompting, challenging and provoking in all the most beautiful ways.

And so you realize this is so normal, that life with the Spirit isn't for some group of other people; it is for us. And we're the ones who are short-changing ourselves by not paying attention, by not seeing all those little prompts, all those little prompts of the Spirit that say, Go back, apologize; go back, make it right. Go pick up the phone and call, send the text, drop off the gift, write the card. That if you start living your life attentive to the work of the Spirit in your life, there will come a day when I believe God is going to pull back the curtain on time and say look at all I accomplished through your obedience and faithfulness. And friends, that is something we don't want to miss out on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness, my inner geek was thrilled. I mean, didn't you just love the Hebrew she shared? It was just so wise and whimsical, and I'm just telling you it was good. So let's keep looking for him, my friends. Look for him in the Old Testament. Look for him everywhere, because Holy Spirit is with you and in you. So tune in and be attentive.

And let's work on it. Let's lose the "the," okay?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because he is Holy Spirit, not the Holy Spirit.

KC Wright: Yeah. I really had to think about that. I don't call him "the Jesus" or "the God." But as a Christian culture, we do call Holy Spirit "the Holy Spirit." You can't really know someone if you address them as "the."

Jennifer Rothschild: "The."

KC Wright: "The."

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. Yes, the KC, you are correct, you can't.

So this book, y'all, it is so good, as I mentioned earlier. And I actually got to read an early copy and had the privilege to endorse it. It's just such sound Bible study written in such a whimsical way. So you're going to love it. She's got such signature warmth in the way she writes, and she's just a wordsmith -- I mean a word artist -- so you definitely need to check it out.

KC Wright: Go to the Show Notes to get the book. And there is also a Bible study we will link you to. What a great, powerful study to do with your peeps for you and your people. Woo! Show Notes will also have a full transcript. And this is one you really need to read and share. The Show Notes are found at 413podcast.com/361.

All right, our beautiful 4:13ers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Our beautiful things.

KC Wright: Look at you, you angels. You can know, Holy Spirit. Did you catch that?

Jennifer Rothschild: There was no "the."

KC Wright: I left out "the."

Jennifer Rothschild: Woo-hoo.

KC Wright: You can know this God you need, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural Holy Spirit strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can.