4:13 Podcast: Can I Pray Like St. Francis? With Mark DeYmaz

Mark DeYmaz: If I was king of the American church and you had to do what I say, I'd wave my magic scepter and I would make every single Christ follower in this country memorize that prayer, pray it daily -- because it's not just to pray it, but to act on it -- and just do one thing, just one -- once a day make it your goal to implement an aspect of that prayer.

It'll change your spiritual life, emotionally, and, more importantly, the people around you to advance the peace of Christ in this crazy world.

Jennifer Rothschild: On today's 4:13, author and pastor Mark DeYmaz is going to unpack the Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi. He's going to show you how to apply its timeless wisdom to the challenges that you might even be facing right now. You know, in an age where prayer is often dismissed as passive, Mark is going to reframe true prayer as actually disruptive. It can awaken our conscience, it can fuel action, and compel justice.

So family, let's ask God to make us instruments of his peace. Amen? Amen. All right, here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, KC and I are so glad you're back again. Thank you for joining us. And I gotta say, you're going to love this episode. You're going to love the angle, the paradigm shift. It's going to be a really good episode.

But in case you're new to us, it's just KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy, and me, Jennifer, and it's just two friends and one topic. And there is absolutely no stress in the podcast closet. And, therefore, whatever you're doing -- maybe you're in the car, maybe you're in the kitchen, maybe you're taking a nap or a walk. Whatever you're doing, zero stress. Okay? Put it on hold, press pause. You can pick up your stress later if you want to, but I really don't think it is worth carrying around. So just, ah, enjoy.

KC Wright: Ah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Enjoy a little time.

Okay. Because first of all, I'm about to delight your heart. All right. Not only is your mind going to be awakened when you have this conversation with Mark and me about St. Francis, but your heart is about to be awakened. And here's why.

KC Wright: Ah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you know we've got all these grandkids. And our oldest is named Tripp. Well, he's actually Philip Clayton Rothschild, III.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is way too big of a name for such a little human, so they call him Tripp.

Okay. So Tripp is a part of this school -- it's a classical school -- and they have a thing every year called History Day. Well, he was just now old enough to participate in his first History Day. And the teacher sent home these -- like seven or eight choices of people they could choose to portray on History Day. They had to make a poster, they had to dress up like them, and they had to write a poem.

But because Tripp was eight years old, the teacher said it can be a family experience. Like, if you guys want to help him write the poem, that's fine.

So Caroline, who was pregnant at the time, sends it to me. She goes, "Okay, I'm gonna need you to help me with this because I'm about to have a baby. Which one of these characters would you like?" I said, "Okay, I'm gonna pick St. Francis," thinking no one else will anyway. And, of course, they didn't. So I'm like, "Tripp, you're gonna be St. Francis." We dressed him up like a monk, we put a little stuffed animal on a leash and --

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And then I got to write the little poem.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what you're about to hear -- because you may not know who St. Francis of Assisi is -- you're going to get to hear an eight-year-old rendering of who St. Francis of Assisi was. So this is my grandson on his podcast debut, Tripp Rothschild on History Day.

Tripp Rothschild: I was born in 1182 in a place called Assisi, Italy, where I first grew. My dad had lots of money, my life was a-okay, so you may think it's funny that I gave it all away. Here's how it happened. Once I became a man, I noticed people were hurting, so I chose to lend a hand. I told my dad I loved him, but I knew in my heart that God was calling to help, so it was time for me to start. So instead of living greedy, I worked to help the needy. I lived a life of poverty and lived in humility. I love the animals and all God made, I took care of nature and I never got paid. So you may think I'm odd, but once I preached to birds. I told them to praise God, but I'm not sure if they understood. Today there are some others who live just like me. They are called Franciscan Brothers. They help those in need. So now you know my story and how I lived each day. I hope it brought God glory because he deserves our praise.

KC Wright: Ah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Wasn't that awesome?

KC Wright: So cute.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, the little boy -- now, he does talk pretty fast, so I know our older ears might had to listen a couple of times. But I just thought that was adorable.

KC Wright: Adorbs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And so now you know who St. Francis is, and now you're going to get to hear the meaning of St. Francis' prayer that Mark's going to introduce to us. But here's the thing. You're about to find out something that I did not know. Did he or did he not really write this prayer? Da-da-da-da.

Okay, let's introduce Mark DeYmaz.

KC Wright: Dr. Mark DeYmaz is a thought-leading author, pastor, and recognized champion of the Multiethnic Church Movement. He planted the Mosaic Church of Central Arkansas in 2001, where he continues to serve right now. In 2004 he co-founded the Mosaix Global Network and today serves as its executive director. Mark is the author of eight books. He and his wife, Linda, have been married for more than 40 years and live in Little Rock, Arkansas, near their four adult children and six grandbabies.

All right, you're gonna love this. I can't wait. So here are Mark and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Mark, your book I'm looking forward to talking about, because it is titled, "Make Me an Instrument of Your Peace," and it's "Becoming More Like Jesus Through the Prayer of St. Francis." Now, I happen to love St. Francis. I've actually been able to visit Assisi, and so it's one of my favorite prayers. But somebody listening may not know the prayer and they may not know who St. Francis is. So let's start with introducing who St. Francis is and then give us an idea about his prayer.

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, yeah. Well, ironically, Jennifer -- first I should say thanks so much for having me on your podcast today. It's an honor to be with you.

Ironically -- and I explain this in the book, I think, second chapter. St. Francis is actually not the author of the prayer. In fact, if St. Francis was here with us today, he wouldn't even know what we're talking about. It was anonymously written in 1912 by a writer in France for the Catholic League and published as a -- literally as a wonderful prayer to say during Mass. But nobody knows who wrote the prayer.

Again, published anonymously in 1912. It was not nefariously, if you will, but it was attributed to St. Francis erroneously in World War II when a Catholic priest put the prayer on the one side of a little card, and on the other side he put the picture of St. Francis. Of course, as you well know, Francis is very much aligned with peace and often portrayed as -- you know, with animals and in tune with nature and very contemplative.

And so whoever this priest was put Francis on one side, the prayer on the other, and since World War II, that's when it got attributed again erroneously to Francis. But all to say, I just think that's an interesting thing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too.

Mark DeYmaz: -- anonymous writer, but this world -- this prayer that is so effective and practical and beautiful, frankly, as a poem, a recitation.

But, yeah, Francis, of course, a Catholic monk, Catholic priest, as I mentioned, known for his demeanor, for his contemplative life and -- yeah, and so it just -- it makes sense. Like you're thinking, if there's any Catholic priest or monk that would have wrote this prayer, it would have been Francis, right? But he didn't write it after all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love unlearning that. That is wonderful, but interesting. You're right, the theme of it can easily be attributed to his life, but I love knowing that it wasn't actually him who penned it. And God bless the anonymous person who did.

So tell us what that prayer says for those who don't know it.

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. Well, the best way to tell you what it says is -- let me just say it and we can pray it as we start your podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Mark DeYmaz: Lord, make me an instrument of your peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light. O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. It's beautiful words. You're right, there's poetry there. But the theme really is almost a counterintuitive way to live. It's peace. So I'm curious for you, what would have prompted you, number one, to study that and write about it? And is there a part of that prayer that was, or maybe is, like, the most difficult for you?

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, great questions. Well, I was raised actually Jesuit Catholic, Jennifer, and Catholic educated, Jesuit high school, et cetera. And an altar boy. Today they're called altar servers. So I was very steeped in my Catholic faith and formed by my Catholic faith. And that prayer, of course, is central, and virtually every Catholic knows it, and it's recited regularly. It almost feels like it came out of the Beatitudes, if you will. It's really a way to live like Jesus.

But having said that, at 19 years old I took another step in my faith journey and began attending a Protestant church with a very vibrant college group, and in time ended up in the Protestant side of the house, so to speak, in non-denominational churches where I've served for 43 years.

And all to say, I was concerned that -- especially in the times in which we live, these crazy times, the people in our church -- it's a multiethnic, economically diverse church in the inner city of Little Rock, doing tremendous work of peacemaking collectively through our nonprofit in our community. And so our church is very well known in the city for meeting people and engaging empathetic needs at the bridge of Christ's humanity.

But after COVID, so many new people came into our church, it was almost like we had -- you know, there was a pre-COVID church, a COVID church, and a post-COVID church.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Mark DeYmaz: And we looked out as leaders in our church and said, hey, we all know that collectively our church does an amazing work of identifying with Christ as a peacemaking church, if you will, but I don't know about you, the person sitting in the seat, and you don't really know about me. So we did a whole series on this prayer, really to form our people and to challenge them and to equip them and encourage them individually from day to day to be a peacemaker.

Now, in simple terms what that means is to follow in the footsteps of the Anointed One. As I explain in the second chapter, Isaiah 53, Luke 4, where Christ actually means Anointed One, he is the promised Messiah. That makes us little M messiahs, little A anointed ones, little C Christs, if you will. And all of the work of this Messiah that we're to identify with, Matthew 5:9, in the work of peacemaking means that we are to be like he was, and that is to be someone who is removing peace-disturbing factors from people's lives.

And that is basically what "shalom" means. To bring shalom is to remove peace-disturbing factors from people's lives or from a community or from a city. And this is the Tzar Shalom that we have, if you will, in Christ, this capital P Peacemaker, this capital A Anointed One, who not only comes to give us eternal life, but to bring abundant and flourishing life in our communities. And so that's the simplest way to say what it means to be a peacemaker.

And then this prayer is a wonderful aspirational prayer, as we just prayed and I recited, but the anonymous author doesn't tell you how to implement this prayer. So -- right? -- the aspiration is, "Make me an instrument of peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there's injury, pardon."

But the author of the prayer -- whether it was a man or a woman, we don't know. But the author doesn't tell you, okay, well, how do I sow love in the midst of hatred? How do I sow pardon in the midst of injury and offense? And how do I sow faith where there is doubt? And generally speaking, then again, how can I at an individual level on a day-to-day basis be someone who is helping to remove -- who's first seeing a peace-disturbing factor in someone's life and then helping to remove that in the footsteps of the great Peacemaker, Jesus Christ himself?

And so that's kind of how the prayer -- we did this series over two and a half years ago, I started the book. And, of course, who would have thought that, you know, this book is released literally as we go to -- whether you want to call it a war, or whatever it is, but, you know, here we are engaged in Iran at the moment that you and I are talking and this book comes out at that same time where the entire world again is crying for peace and we have this wonderful prayer to try to implement.

And so the book again is the practical side of that. Okay, how do we do this, and what does that look like on a day-to-day basis? And that's what I wrote about. In terms of what's the most difficult part of the prayer, I'd say in one sense, like, all of it, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Mark DeYmaz: Because just like Paul, I feel like, you know, oh, wretched man that I am, you know. Who can save me from myself? And, of course, that's Christ, and no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

But if I had to pick one, I think the aspirational line, "Where there is injury, pardon." I think that's a human thing, right? For us, it's to retaliate or to seek revenge when someone has hurt me, when someone's offended me, when there's injury. And that's the use of the term there.

And twice the author alludes to this idea of pardoning or forgiving, because it is so difficult for us. Our human tendency is, again, to retaliate or to take revenge and to apply that when I've been hurt, especially when you might have hurt my kids or my grandkids or my wife or people I love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, right.

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. So how do you do that? And yet here Christ is on the Cross literally being killed and crucified and looks out on the crowd. Not just the soldiers, but, of course, the Jewish leadership in the time that put him there. "Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing." I mean, the moral and the spiritual fortitude to be able to do that. And to essentially entrust yourself to a faithful Creator, as Peter says, and do what is right, which is to model that aspect of forgiveness.

And so there's a difference, of course, forgiveness and pardon. Pardon, if you think about it -- and that's the term that's used there by the writer. I mean, that's like having your record expunged. And I explain that in the book. It's not just, oh, yeah, no problem, oh, I forgive you and let's go on. It's expunging the person's record. And, of course, in the Old Testament we're told that -- the character of God himself is as far as the east is from the west. I put -- you know, that's how far I've removed your sin. And so, yeah, very difficult on the human level to do that.

But I found even in writing the book and considering this -- I say right early on, hey, look, I am not God's gift to peacemaking. Let me just tell you, I'm an Italian-Russian Jew. Okay? So I can get in the argument with the best of them, so to speak. But, yeah, I -- you know, it's something that we can all work on. And again that's such a critical point, simply saying how can I remove -- as I see people throughout the day, I'm interacting, having in the back of my mind and imprinted on my heart, am I seeing a peace-disturbing factor in this person's life, and how can I remove it? Just an encouraging word.

I was at a conference recently -- I've run conferences myself. And I was at another one and there were some travel problems with weather, et cetera. And I know the organizer. And I woke up very early on the first morning of the conference where hundreds of people are not able to get there. And, you know, the conference is 6,000 or 7,000 people --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's stressful.

Mark DeYmaz: -- and I just texted that person and I just said, Hey, you know -- you know, something -- God's got this. You put a lot of effort. But she wrote back to me and just was so thankful for that little word that someone noticed that, hey, if I'm in your shoes, I'm fretting right now. I put on -- for a year I planned this thing and hundreds of people can't get here, but it's kind of like, don't worry, just do what you gotta do. Trust the rest, God, for what you can't.

And that is a simple example. Imagine, Jennifer, if we all were like that, even just once a day doing that, the butterfly effect of peacemaking we could create as a Christian community in this country.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's a beautiful thought, Mark, and it causes us to be very Philippians 2, you know, not just considering our own self, but to pay attention to the needs of other and regard them as more important. And so to detect peace-disturbing situations in others' lives means we step outside ourself. And I know that the prayer, the peacemaking prayer, is not Scripture. But it is scriptural. Because even as you begin, you know, when you first read the first line, "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace." Like, this is bigger. This is the capital P. This is the big Peace. This is Jesus. And so we want to be his instruments and to see as he sees and love as he loves.

You know, we just had Easter a while back, and we were visiting a different church because we were out of town. And one of the things that pastor said was something like -- and I won't quote him correctly, but I'll get close. Something like, you know, Jesus didn't just die or -- Jesus didn't just come here to live for you, but he came here and he gave his life to you. It wasn't just giving his life for you. That was it. He didn't just give his life for you; he gave his life to you.

And to me that resonates with this conversation. Because it's not a peace we conjure; it's a peace we are given through Christ because he's in us. So therefore, if that's my thinking -- and I'm happy for you to tweak it -- but my question would be, do we as Christians do this? Do we have -- what's our reputation like, you know, for being peacemakers?

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. You're absolutely right, this is biblical, theological. And earlier in our conversation, I referenced Isaiah 53 and Luke 4. I have to apologize. It's actually Isaiah 61 that I was wanting to reference with Christ the Anointed One, the Messiah, et cetera. The reason Isaiah 53 is because, of course, we're talking just after Easter, so I'm thinking Good Friday. I still got Good Friday Easter on my brain. That's the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53.

But to the theological point, Isaiah 61 is where you have -- again, in a long history of promises dating back to Genesis 3:15, you have the introduction of this Anointed One, this one who is going to come on behalf of God. And he is being sent to this world to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, freedom to the prisoners, to give those that believe and follow a crown of beauty instead of ashes, and oil instead of mourning.

And you have all these oppositional statements. But all of this is describing who the Messiah would be, what he is coming to do. And it generally -- as we've already said, in that passage he is the Tzar Shalom. He is the Prince of Peace, the capital P Prince of Peace, and this is what he comes to do. And again, when we give our lives to him as little -- now, we're little C Christ ones, anointed ones, right? We're to follow in his footsteps.

Matthew 5:9, Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be identified with the son -- as the sons and daughters of God. It's the only Beatitude you don't get something for what you do; you are identified with someone for who you are. And that, of course, is being this little P peacemaker, if you will, in his steps, little A anointed, et cetera, Isaiah 61. So that is the playbook from which this came.

And in the second chapter of the book, I imagine this anonymous writer. Where would you get these oppositional statements from and be able to form the deep theology that's actually in this prayer? I imagine they had to have been reading Isaiah 61. And, of course, in Luke 4, when Christ unrolls the scroll in the synagogue at the start of his public ministry, he cites Isaiah 61, and basically in terms -- our terms today, he goes, "That's me. I'm that guy." All right?

And so he identifies himself with the Tzar Shalom of Isaiah 61, the Anointed One, the Christ to come, to set all these wrongs and make them right to his people, if you will, and to the people of God. So deeply formative from Luke 4, Isaiah 61, Matthew 5:9, tons of theology.

Now, to the other part of what you just said, in the first chapter I talk about where we are in context as a country, and really anybody, just our world at the moment. And basically this is rooted in Barna stats, or statistics, that are behind the He Gets Us Campaign. And about 80% of the U.S. adult population, some 219 million people out of 250 or so, 47 million in America today, over 80% have a favorable view of Jesus. They believe that he actually lived 2,000 years ago, that his teaching is good for society, that he was empathetic, and they have all these positive things to say about Jesus. And I explain that and show the stats in that first chapter.

But by almost the exact same percentages in the opposite way, adult people in America today, they do not like Christians, they do not like Christianity, and they do not like the church. So they love Jesus. They got zero problem with Jesus. But they got a problem with Christians, Christianity, and the church. And so -- and that's for a variety of reasons, and I talk about that in the first chapter.

Now, with all that in mind, I really believe we're living in a Matthew 5:16 century. What did Jesus say in Matthew 5:16? "Let them see your good works and they will glorify your Father in heaven." The idea of glorifying is like shining a light into the darkness. When people are groping in the darkness, how will they see him? Jesus says in Matthew 5:16, he says, "Let them see your good works." And he doesn't say let them hear your good words. In the 20th century, it was very linear, very apologetic, let them hear your good words. And, of course, people still use words to explain the Gospel and see people come to Christ.

But in the 21st century, we have to lead with works, because we have to earn the right to be heard, as was said years ago by Young Life decades ago. But that's the moment we're living in. In the Chronicles, it says that the men of Issachar, the people of Issachar, understood the times and knew what was right for Israel to do. An approach. Not a moral right, but an approach for the nation. And that recognized there were times past, times present, times coming.

So we are in, my opinion, a Matthew 5:16 century, and we have to lead with demonstrative works, engaging people at the bridge of Christ's humanity, feeding the poor and clothing and working with the immigrant and at-risk children and the opioid addict, and being engaged, not just from a distance, but actually in community with these people, demonstrating the reconciling work of Jesus Christ, the power of him to overcome all of these problems and to do the work of peacemaking, and that then is the credible evidence that there is a God who loves all people, not just some, and helps us move them from the bridge of Christ's humanity ultimately to where we want to see them, and that is to cross the bridge of his divinity, essentially to give their lives to Christ. So this is very much a works-over-words century, and there is no greater work that we can do than identifying with Christ in the work of peacemaking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's so good. And our words fall short and are hollow and offensive if the works do not match. So, yeah, I love this, Mark. This is a great framework to think through. I'm so grateful that -- just how you have assimilated this prayer into such a very practical way to live during this century.

And so I hear how being peacemakers can change our culture, can change our church, can impact, but I'm curious personally, for a personal believer, how does praying for peace or doing the work of peacemaking, how does it impact us personally, like our mental and emotional health?

Mark DeYmaz: That's such an insightful and a good question. I really mean that. Because obviously since we did the series, and then, of course, working on the manuscript and the two-year process for the book to come to life just in the month of March 2026, I -- you know, as I already mentioned, hey, I'm not God's gift to it. I work at it, we work at it collectively, but it's really put it at the forefront of my daily living. It's kind of forced me to think about, hey, I wrote the book on it, I gotta be -- I gotta be practicing --

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm going to live it.

Mark DeYmaz: -- you know, think about it. And so just that whole process has really put it at the forefront of my brain from day to day. And I can't tell you how many times, just even since the book's come out in the last month, where I'm in a situation of one way or another, whether it's writing a card to someone or sending a note or seeing someone here -- like, literally I posted about this this past Sunday, when a convicted sex offender -- who's out, but I happen to know that about this person -- came up to me during the Easter service and thanked me -- in the middle of worship, thanked me for allowing him to be in the room.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Mark DeYmaz: Now, this is on the same Sunday -- okay? -- the same Sunday that one of our -- we had -- two of our teaching pastors shared the message. This is just two days ago from when we're talking about right now. We're on a Tuesday. It was whatever. Sunday. And a woman in our church from the community, who has some mental health problems, literally flashed one of our preachers while they're preaching for, like, two minutes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my.

Mark DeYmaz: Took their top down. And he said, like, "When I saw it at first, I thought this surely is not" -- he scanned the crowd, came back to it, surely it was. And fortunately, a retired pastor's wife, who happened to see it, went over and dealt with it appropriately.

Now, the reason I bring up these crazy stories -- okay? -- this literally happened, you know, two days ago on Easter in our -- we had four services -- in a couple services. But our response collectively and my response in that moment -- right? -- are formed by having that prayer in mind. And where, like, our first reaction is we gotta, you know, suspend -- we gotta kick that woman out of the church. Because she did it very intentionally, and we have it on camera. That's our first response, kick her out -- if you will, it's like punitive, discipline. We got to protect the flock. And that's just a human response.

But as our executive team talked about it this morning, we realize we're not in the business of punishing people, we're in the business of helping to remove peace-disturbing factors from their lives.

And this woman obviously has a peace-disturbing factor, some mental issues. We have a counseling clinic -- John Brown University has their counseling clinic in our building. And so rather than respond in a punitive way, we reminded ourselves our goal is to restore her to wholeness.

And so instead of seeing it as an affront to the preacher or an affront to the church or affront to Christ, our -- we change the way we think about it. And so now we're going to send her to counseling for three months. We basically put together a plan to, in a sense, if you will, like, suspend her from the church while --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure. Right.

Mark DeYmaz: -- she goes through a counseling period --

Jennifer Rothschild: Protect the flock, but --

Mark DeYmaz: -- and allow the counselors to inform us of how to play it, Christ-centered counselors, et cetera. So I'm just saying that's real time, like, as of two hours ago, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Wow.

Mark DeYmaz: And that type of thinking is spurred because of our series on peacemaking, because how, you know, we want to live. And it changes our emotion, you know, like, it dials back the emotion of the potential anger or whatever it is. And I can't tell you how often that's happening.

So my own spiritual life, my emotional life. And it really is -- that prayer -- you know, if I was king of the American church and you had to do what I say, I'd wave my magic scepter and I would make every single Christ follower in this country memorize that prayer, pray it daily -- because it's not just to pray it, but to act on it -- and just do one thing, just one -- once a day make it your goal to implement an aspect of that prayer. It'll change your spiritual life, emotionally, and more importantly the people around you, to advance the peace of Christ in this crazy world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's super good. And so then here's a hard question. And I love how the Spirit led you to handle the woman who clearly has her own brokenness. So way to bring wholeness by trying to bring healing and still protect the flock, Pastor. That's not easy. Well done.

But here it brings me to a question. So how do we balance being peacemakers with this biblical call to stand up for truth and justice?

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. Well, very, very good. I don't see those as separate things. Like, in other words --

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, good answer.

Mark DeYmaz: -- it's not an either/or. Like, no, that is exactly what Micah tells us, right? But to do justice and love mercy and to walk humbly. And those three things coupled with Philippians 2 and the example of Christ who emptied himself of power, position, and privilege, came down to push us up and to give us those things that we didn't have apart from him. Peacemaking, justice, mercy, compassion, it's all intersected.

And when you use this idea of speaking up or standing up -- in that book I lean into it a bit. I've done a lot more thinking about this, and writing and speaking about this idea of what does it mean to speak up or stand up. In the last 15 years or so, a phrase has been propagated in the United States certainly, and the phrase itself is "Silence is complicity."

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Yes, I've heard that.

Mark DeYmaz: And this phrase permeates our society today. And intrinsically, basically none of us want to be complicit with evil. And so in that sense, yeah, it's right. Yeah, I don't want to be complicit. But it's driving Christians, and particularly pastoral leaders -- that phrase is driving them to feel they have to comment on every single thing that happens from day to day.

Everything from a Super Bowl performance to the latest presidential tweet to -- you know, on and on. And not just pastors, but CEOs and organizational leaders, as well as just general people, none of us want to be complicit. So now we're speaking all the time about every single thing. Of course, social media and smartphones gives us the way to do that.

But think about that statement. I really don't like that statement, and here's why. Because there's no nuance in it. Silence can be complicity, I agree, and I -- certainly there are times I do not need to be silent with my lips. I need to stand up or speak out, et cetera, because silence can be complicity. But is it true that silence is always complicity? And I would say no.

Solomon calls silence wisdom. There is a time to speak and a time to remain silent. James calls silence moral discipline. Be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger. And there are many ways to speak, and words are one of them. But as I learned as a little boy, and I'm sure you did, and everybody knows, actions speak louder than words.

So I think that there's -- when we think about peacemaking, justice, mercy, compassion not being complicit, I think there's a lack of nuance with that statement. It's a dogmatic statement, it's not accurate, and it drives a lot of people -- it drives people a lot to speak on things they have no idea about.

Let's say I'm a -- you know, I'm a pastor, but I'm not a politician and I'm not an educator. But I think because I've got traction as a pastor that -- and I don't want to be complicit, I'm going to comment on all these other things, like actors telling us how to run a country. It's like you -- you can't assume your expertise in one area carries over to others. But again, for a lot of reasons, people are doing that today, and all of that creates noise.

And the more you speak often, actually nobody's listening. But when you -- like a surgeon when you know when to speak, when you discipline yourself, when you stay silent, when you act more than you speak and you do the work of peacemaking, that's what people actually listen to. And they pay attention to it because they know when you do speak or when you do act, it's meaningful, and you're not just someone who's called a blithering idiot, where you're just speaking about every single issue.

No one's paying attention to you because we already know what you think. But I would say there's a lot of formation and thought that probably -- not just probably -- that should, you know. But how can I control that, right? That's just my thought, though, on that.

But, yeah, peacemaking, justice, mercy, compassion, it's all intersected, and that in and of itself is what makes a statement today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word. And, you know, when you said that, I've been around people who have something to say about every single thing, and you're right, I hear nothing they say 'cause I'm drowning in their words. But words well chosen when the Spirit leads, that are designed not for our own self-promotion but to truly promote peace, those become a lifeline for people that they can grab on. So good word, Pastor.

Mark DeYmaz: Well, thank you. You're absolutely right -- and I know we're running out of time -- but that's the exact thing that as a Christian, if you're listening to this podcast, and being a peacemaker -- just start with that. Start with the wisdom of when do I speak, when do I not? Remove peace-disturbing factors and work with the words you choose. Because Christ died on that Cross for all people, not just some.

And if you think about the metaphor in that, especially in America where we live today, he died with his arms outstretched to the right and to the left. He didn't drop his right arm to hold on to all the people on the left, nor did he drop his left arm to hold all the people on the right. And those opposites can be political, you know, right, the Republicans, and Democrats on the left, or black and white, or rich and poor, or men and women.

All the divisions of our world, he holds every one in tension. "If I be lifted up," he said, "I draw all people." Not just some people, "all people to myself." And the unity is actually in the tension.

But particularly Christians today and churches, we don't want that tension, so we get in churches that think and speak like we want them to speak or whatever, and we only hang around with people who think and speak and act like us. That is not the tension of Christ. The tension is good. It's not a fighting tension. As you mentioned, Jennifer, it's the Philippians 2 tension. Do not just merely think about my own people group's interests, but also the interests of other people groups in creating this healthy, multi-ethnic, economically diverse church that mirrors heaven on earth as an embassy mirrors the country it represents.

And as ambassadors of Christ -- you know, last time I looked at ambassadors around the world, they don't get to say whatever they want. They have to speak for the president or for the king or for the government that they represent. And we are called to do that. I have opinions on tons of stuff, Jennifer, just like a lot of people, right? Whether it's politics or whatever, I got tons of opinions. But the moral discipline to withhold those opinions and let my work speak, and to realize that I don't get to say what I want to say.

I -- and, yes, I'm an American, I have that right, I totally understand. But at the end of the day, I'm formed by my identity in Christ and I am here to represent him as an ambassador. And I want to speak with the wisdom of Christ and I want -- and I don't always do it, of course. None of us do. But that's the ultimate goal. It's not -- I don't want you to know what Mark DeYmaz is thinking, I want you to know what Jesus Christ is thinking, and doing my best to express myself in both word and deed as an ambassador of Christ and not -- you know, not my own opinions, if you will.

Jennifer Rothschild: May our words be few and rightly spoken, and may each of our words be Spirit led. Oh, friends, we are his ambassadors, ambassadors of the Prince of Peace, so may we speak peace, live peace, do peace. Like, let's just be peace.

KC Wright: Amen. You said it.

Now, 413ers, go to the Show Notes and get Mark's book. This is a beautiful prayer, and Mark goes through it line by line and shows us exactly how to pray it. And -- here's the kicker -- live it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: The Show Notes are at 413podcast.com/409.

Until next week -- I don't really like that line because --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you don't. You never wanna leave.

KC Wright: -- we're gonna miss you -- ask God to make you an instrument of his peace. He will. And then live that peace. You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too. I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: You know, as I get older, more mature, now that that I'm in my 30s, I would rather have peace in my life than all the money in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: Peace is where it's at.

Jennifer Rothschild: It sure is.