4:13 Podcast: Can I Still Trust God When Everything Seems To Go Wrong? With Anne Graham Lotz & Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright

Anne Graham Lotz: Don't wait until a crisis hits before you establish a personal relationship with God through faith in Jesus. You do that now when things are going well, and then you develop that relationship so when things go bad, the relationship is there, it's strong, it's rooted in God's Word, and he will carry you through.

But it's -- you don't want to react to a crisis by then scrambling to try to get yourself right with God. You need to get right with God now and then you're prepared for whatever life throws at you.

Jennifer Rothschild: On today's episode, Anne Graham Lotz and her daughter, Rachel-Ruth Wright, are going to reveal how one man's life was turned upside down and set on a path that he would have never chosen. But it was a path that led to God's ultimate purpose for his life. The man? Joseph. So with Scripture, honest stories, and deep insight, Anne and Rachel-Ruth are going to give you tons of encouragement.

So if you're facing life struggles, or maybe you just need a little reassurance, I want you to know you're about to hear that God is in the details. So let's get encouraged.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Jennifer and KC here. We have one goal, and it's to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you, along with us, are living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13, because it is through Christ. All of it is through Christ. The two biggest words in that verse are not "I can."

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: The two biggest words in that verse are "through Christ." That's the only way we want to operate, our friends.

So I'm so glad we're talking today. It's fun. We're to talk with Anne and her daughter, Rachel-Ruth, and, gosh, all about somebody we know and love, Joseph.

KC Wright: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: Hey, speaking of Joseph --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- do you want to interpret a dream I've had recently?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I was a psychology major. Let's give it our best shot. Yeah, tell me your dream. Tell me your dream.

KC Wright: Okay. No, seriously, I do not believe this is a God dream. I don't.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: I do believe God can speak through dreams --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

KC Wright: -- but 100% of the time God is going to speak through --

Jennifer Rothschild: The Word.

KC Wright: -- his precious holy written Word. Okay? However, I do want to tell you about this dream I had.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, tell me.

KC Wright: Okay. I was backstage with CeCe Winans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Okay. We're gonna have CeCe on the podcast in the future --

Jennifer Rothschild: We need to.

KC Wright: -- by the way.

Jennifer Rothschild: We need to, yes.

KC Wright: I am in love with CeCe.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you are, KC.

KC Wright: Okay. Anyway, CeCe, by the way -- this is so random -- took me into another room where she was showing me her new clothing line. Anyway --

Jennifer Rothschild: In your dream?

KC Wright: In my dream.

Jennifer Rothschild: She has got a new clothing line in your dream and she's showing you?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is awesome. Keep going.

KC Wright: Okay. Then CeCe decided to escape fame and live on the north side of our town and attend my church.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: Okay? Now, the news headlines on all the TV stations were, "Gospel Music Legend CeCe Is Missing." I knew where she was --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: -- and I was torn with honoring her and letting her rest from fame, yet reporting her because of pastoral integrity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. You're a very complex case.

KC Wright: Then I woke up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Wow. Okay.

KC Wright: Now, I think this happened because Elliana had said the other day -- she goes, "Dad, I'm so thankful you're out of your CeCe era," because we're listening to something else in my Jeep besides "The Goodness of God." Now I'm in to Chris Tomlin "Is He Worthy?" And I get stuck into these songs.

Jennifer Rothschild: I listen to that all the time too, by the way. I love Chris Tomlin "Are You Worthy?"

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or "Is He Worthy?"

KC Wright: "Is He Worthy?" yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right. I'm going to try my best to interpret this. All right, here we go. Let me sound like I -- like you should pay me $150 for this interpretation. First of all, KC, I think this shows you have a caring, nurturing nature and you feel protective of those who you feel like are vulnerable in ministry.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right? So that's one.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Secondly, you have a need to be known. So if someone who is more famous and is known knows you, then you feel more esteemed.

KC Wright: Huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you were trying to accomplish that in your dream also.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: You might have been feeling a little lack of being known.

KC Wright: Huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay?

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Then --

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Cece's showing you the clothing line.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Here's what that means. That you have felt now like you are privileged because you know something that is private.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you -- your psyche is seeking that sense of a privileged status that comes only from something that is private --

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- or secret or not known. So you have this juxtaposition of fame, that she's trying to escape, and privacy that you're giving her. So see how it all fits?

KC Wright: JR, I'm getting chill bumps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. There you go. $150, please. I just interpreted your dream. Okay. Not as well as Joseph.

KC Wright: But it was so true. I had such a pastor's heart for her.

Jennifer Rothschild: You did. You're trying to protect her.

KC Wright: I was torn. I was like, I have to protect her.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you also feel this need for ethics and telling the truth --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I know.

KC Wright: I had to let the news media know that I -- she -- I knew exactly where she was.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, all you need to do is put one of those, you know, nice little sweaters that she has in her clothing line for men, you just put that on and be a happy pastor.

Okay. All right, we gotta introduce Anne --

KC Wright: So funny.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's get real here, because, you and me, we're just kind of splashing around in the silly shallow end.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Though I think that was rather impressive. I love CeCe too. And if she ever comes on the podcast, you are definitely interviewing her, because I want to see you fanboy out.

Okay, let's introduce Anne and Rachel-Ruth.

KC Wright: Anne Graham Lotz, once called the best preacher in the family by her dad, Billy Graham, is a best-selling author of more than 20 books. No matter what this woman does, her one goal is crystal clear, to bring revival to the hearts of God's people. And that is 100% facts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: She is so awesome. Love her heart.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright is the daughter of Anne Graham Lotz and granddaughter of Billy Graham. She is married to Steven Wright and has three daughters. She teaches an online Bible study that reaches over 137 different countries, with thousands of attendees.

Now, settle in and listen now as Jennifer talks to Anne and Rachel-Ruth about their latest book called "God Won't Leave You There."

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Rachel-Ruth and Anne, this is very fun to have you guys together. And so you've written this new book together which is titled, "God Won't Leave You There." Okay. Now, my understanding is you have organized it into these three sections: God Is With You, God Is Guiding You, and God Will Bring You Through. Okay. And this traces, obviously -- and we're going to unpack in a minute -- Joseph's life.

But before we even get to Joseph, I want to know how those three sections, those three concepts, represent our own lives. So which one of you wants to tackle that first?

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I mean, I think there's so many ways that -- just following the life of Joseph. I mean, that's how we got that.

But for our own lives, God is with us when we have been through suffering, which is why we wrote this book in the first place. I think one of the reasons -- Mom and I have been through so much that we have learned and seen and experienced ourselves that God is with us.

And when things are really hard, that's when we're clinging to him and talking to him and crying to him. And in looking back, we can see how God was with us through those really difficulties and bad things in our lives.

And then God guided us through. He was teaching us, he was disciplining us in some ways. He was building character in us, he was drawing us to himself in those -- we call them the middle years, the years when -- the time when you're just in the middle of suffering and it's really hard.

And then God will see you through, no matter what situation. And some things he has seen us through, some of the suffering he has seen us through, some things we're still going through, and some things we may always go through until we go to heaven when we're ultimately set free.

But the whole thing is is that God is a personal God. He's with us throughout all of it, and he's got something to teach us. And he will bring us through to stronger character, closer relationship to him, healing in different ways, and ultimately into heaven. But I'm just -- I'm so thankful to have a God that's Emmanuel, God With Us.

Anne Graham Lotz: Jennifer, if I can speak up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: It's important not to waste those middle years.

You know, it's when Joseph was betrayed or seized by his brothers and sold into slavery, God used that to get him to Egypt where he needed him to be. And then when Joseph was in Potiphar's house, you know, that Joseph learned the Egyptian language there, the culture. He learned administrative ability and how to run fields and something about the agriculture in Egypt. And then when he was betrayed by Potiphar's wife and then thrown into prison, it was Pharaoh's prison. He was a political prisoner.

So you know while he was there, he learned something about the government and the way that operates and about Pharaoh's court.

So he was prepared. It took 14 years of enslavement and imprisonment before he was elevated to Pharaoh's court. And he didn't waste it. He learned something everywhere he went. God was with him, God granted him favor, and God used him even though he kept -- seemed things went from bad to worse, you know.

And I think for us, we think that this one point in time is it, but this -- whatever we're going through is temporary. Even if it lasts your lifetime, it's temporary compared to eternity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Anne Graham Lotz: And we just don't want to waste what God is teaching us. I've taught my kids, from when they were little, that this life is like boot camp for eternity. God is putting things here in this life to prepare you for serving him in eternity. So it's just -- Joseph is a beautiful example of not wasting that suffering and all the things that life threw at him, but using it and then prepared for when God called him out.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I know that that's what you two have also done. And in a little bit I want to get to some of your own personal pit moments and how God has seen you through and what you've learned.

But for those who -- you know, you kind of articulated, both of you, some of the principles and then some of the actual physical places that Joseph experienced. So let's just summarize his journey. Okay? So it started as a pit. He's sold into slavery. He gets into Potiphar's house where he is serving there. Then he gets unjustly accused. He's in prison. And then finally he is in a palace. Okay.

So someone listening, they are hearing that and they're going, okay, yeah, I'm feeling stuck in what you called, Rachel-Ruth, those middle chapters of my story, like, it's the pit or the prison, and they have no idea that there really is going to be the spiritual equivalent of this palace coming up. So what can you say to them besides just don't waste those years? What else can you say to them to encourage them?

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: Well, I know for just stuff that I've gone through, when you're in those seasons where it is just raw and hard and difficult and you don't see your way out of it, it's then that we have to cling to the Lord. And it's during those times where the Lord really taught me to trust him and to know that he will walk me through. And as hard as some of this stuff is that I've gone through, the hardest parts of my life are when I felt so much joy in knowing that Jesus was with me and that I was suffering for -- in a sense to understand a little bit of what Jesus went through on the cross.

But I think for somebody in the middle of it, you have to trust and know that he is a good, good Father, and he loves you, and he is not somebody that's like, Oh, let's let her go through this and let's put her through -- like, he loves you. And if something has hit your life, it is for a reason. There is a purpose to it. And Joseph's life shows us that, that every single thing that happened to him was for a reason.

And so I think that's been just huge for me to know that there's a purpose in what I'm going through, there is a reason for this. He's teaching me, he's training me. There's just -- there's so much more to it than what we can see in our present suffering, and there's a greater picture. And we've just got to know that God is a good, good Father and he will see us through. And rely on him. Go to God's Word, read the Bible, you know, claim the promises that he gives us, and just know that he's got a perfect plan for your life.

Jennifer Rothschild: There is a purpose. And that's why we don't waste it, because we know there's a purpose in it.

All right. So, Anne, when we are in the pit or in the prison, truly the reality is God is our peace, right, ladies? I mean, that's the reality. So, Anne, I'm curious, in your life, how have you experienced that peace even in what might be a pit for you? Like, you know, the time after your husband passed, or you've even fought your own cancer situation. So how has God been your peace in those situations?

Anne Graham Lotz: You know, Jennifer, I don't think that -- peace isn't something you grab or -- it's just -- to me, it's deeply implanted because of my relationship with the Lord. And what Rach-Ruth was saying in that I trust God to be good. I know his will is best. That whatever happens in my life, according to Romans 8:28, is for my good when I love him and I'm in his will. I'm called according to his purpose.

And so -- you referred to my husband's death. We'd been married 49 years when I found him unresponsive in our pool. And got him to the hospital. Three days later, we released him to go on to eternity. But it was very sudden and we didn't have a chance to say goodbye. And then it was three years later that my father went to heaven, very suddenly also. He was almost 100 years old, but we didn't expect him to go that morning at breakfast. We didn't have a chance to say goodbye.

And within six months of that, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Went through surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, the whole nine yards. And I never tried to have peace. I never sought peace. I just had peace. God gives you peace, and it's based on my relationship with the Lord.

When I was a girl, Jennifer -- and I'll just tell you this. It was a Good Friday when I was eight or nine years of age. I don't remember the year. I remember the day. I'd watched a picture about Jesus on television. And it came to the scene of the Cross, I knew he had died for me.

And so I told him I was sorry for the wrong things I'd done, I wanted -- asked him to forgive me, to come into my heart. I claimed him as my Savior and my Lord, and I believe I was born again into God's family at that moment. And one of the things he gives each one of us when we make that decision, he places peace in our heart. He places joy, he gives us hope.

And then I've grown in that throughout the years, and it's been now almost a lifetime, and I've grown in that relationship with him, and it's my relationship with him that gives me peace.

So this is what I would say to those who are listening. Don't wait until a crisis hits before you establish a personal relationship with God through faith in Jesus. You do that now, when things are going well, and then you develop that relationship so when things go bad, the relationship is there, it's strong, it's rooted in God's Word, and he will carry you through.

But it's -- you don't want to react to a crisis by then scrambling to try to get yourself right with God. You need to get right with God now and then you're prepared for whatever life throws at you. And life can throw some -- you know, some pretty mean things.

But God has been with me. And sometimes at the moment that I'm going through it, I don't sense his presence. Like Moses in the cleft of the rock when he wanted to see God's glory, and God said, You can't see my face, but I'll pass by, you can see my backside. And there are times when God has put me in the cleft of the rock, but it's a hard place, and then he passes by so I don't -- I'm not aware of his presence at the moment, but I look back and I see how he's been faithful to me through the whole thing.

So it's important to have that relationship with him, to know sometimes you may feel abandoned. But I never go on my feelings. I go on my faith. And Hebrews says that God will never leave me, he'll never forsake me, and so I'm -- I'm confident of that whether I feel his presence or not. And it's my relationship with him, the confidence I have in my relationship with him, that I'm born again, that I know I'm saved, I know the Holy Spirit lives within me, I know one day I'll go to heaven. That gives me peace.

So the peace is something that's steadfast. It's like a deep river that runs underneath.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and as Rachel-Ruth was saying, you know, that God being with us, he is Emmanuel, he is our Prince of Peace. So yet it's not something we produce, it's something we receive and have and live out because he is with us. It's beautiful.

So, Rachel-Ruth, in the book you also point out that Joseph suffered, but he never got bitter about it. Okay? And I know you've had your own journey of suffering, though I don't understand it well. Something about your heart. I would love for you to kind of share that with us and explain how Joseph's story of endurance, like, may have been -- informed the way you've managed your own situation.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: Yeah. So four years ago -- I mean, I feel like I -- I always want to say, Mom and I have been through -- for whatever reason, God has allowed us to have lots of suffering in our life. But this is -- this was the big one, a big one for me.

But four years ago, I went in for a routine stress test where you get on a treadmill and you run, you know, they check your heart and stuff. And I'd had them before, it was fine. I didn't have a serious heart problem at all, it was just nothing. And I went in and the appointment was a disaster. The person -- the whole thing, it was really not a good situation. And I passed out a bunch of times and walk out crying.

And so four days later, I just kept having chest pain, and I didn't know what it was. And so I finally called the doctor, he's like, "Go to the ER." And so I went to the ER, and that's where they found out I was having a rare kind of heart attack called SCAD, spontaneous coronary artery dissection, where the inside of my arteries in my heart were literally shredding. And the first one -- it was super painful. I mean, morphine didn't even touch it.

And so I had the first one, and then the next day I -- by God's wonderful mercy, I was still in the hospital and had the second one that was -- I was dying from. It was so scary. And lost all the feeling in my body and everything. And then God just supernaturally brought me back. And they rushed me to the OR and put stents in my heart. And they said it had -- one of my arteries had shredded from the top to the bottom in my heart. And they'd never seen a worse one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: And so God just allowed me to live. Like, it's supernatural that I'm alive. But then it left me for -- three years after that with a lot of heart pain. Because it's not like a normal heart attack. It causes lots of chest pain, lots of heart pain, the scar tissue and everything.

But anyhow, the thing that is the struggle -- you know, during that was not becoming bitter. Because a lot of times I was like, I was so healthy, I was fit, I was doing great. I had my girl -- you know, raising my girls, and whatever, going to football games, and now I just was in a constant panic that something was going to happen, I was going to have another one. And I didn't want to grow bitter.

And studying Joseph -- I was teaching my Bible study, and I got to the point of teaching Joseph, and Joseph never got bitter. It's unbelievable. When his brother sees him thrown in a pit, he gets sold into slavery, he could have been like, God, where are you? How could you let this happen to me? My life God was so good, and this is not what I had planned for myself. And he missed the end of his teen years, his 20 years, his years of his 20-year-old ages.

And he never got angry with God. He didn't sabotage Potiphar's house, he didn't throw a fit and sit on the floor in the cell in the prison. He didn't grow bitter. And that just spoke volumes to me. And look what God did with a life completely surrendered to him.

And we have got to let go of bitterness because it will eat you alive in every way, physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And so sometimes bitterness comes knocking every door, and you -- every morning, and you just have to forgive. You've got to let go and know that God is a good God and he's got a purpose in what we're going through.

Jennifer Rothschild: Word. Okay. So as I'm listening to that, though, I'm thinking, yes, we do have to forgive. But here's the thing. When we struggle and -- or suffer, and it's because of loss, you know, like losing your dad and losing your husband, a heart condition, things that are really essentially out of our control, right? Sometimes when I have physical issues, that kind of stuff, it's easier for me to deal with -- okay? -- for me personally. But if I'm struggling or suffering because someone hurt me or someone betrayed me, ooh, that's just so much harder for me.

And so a lot of Joseph's suffering was because of betrayal and -- you know, by his family. But then even when he gets to Potiphar's house, Potiphar's wife, like, she accuses him of nasty things that he didn't do, so he's unjustly accused.

All right. So somebody listening, that's their story right now. How do you counsel them if they really want to trust that God is sovereign in the middle of all this, but they're really having a hard time because people have been very wrong toward them?

Anne Graham Lotz: Jennifer, I'll take that one. And I won't go into the details. But my husband and I were in essence thrown out of the church where we'd been members for 15 years. And he had been chairman of the Board of Deacons, he taught the largest men's Sunday school class. And so we were very sad. We raised our children in that church. And they turned on us, and it was because of our stand on the inerrancy -- the infallibility of God's Word, and in essence threw us out. So it made the front page of the paper for about ten days in a row that I had been thrown out, you know, of church.

And so it was -- and that was a wounding. They say that that's one of the most painful things. If your house burns to the ground or if you're thrown out of a church or have trouble in church, those are the two most painful things you can go through. Because church is supposed to be a place where you feel safe --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Anne Graham Lotz: -- and instead, all of a sudden they turn on you. And when they did and they voted us out, the whole church applauded. About 600 people applauded.

So the Lord led us out, but what I had to work through is forgiveness. And I had to make the choice to forgive the people who had done that and the way they'd orchestrated it. And not only forgive them, make the choice to forgive, but then I felt like I needed to reach out and do something that would bless them.

And God showed me a way I could do that and -- in other words, act out my forgiveness by doing something that would bless them and -- individuals in the church who had done that to us. And that's what set me free. And not only that, but knowing that God is the judge. "Vengeance is mine," says the Lord. He will repay. He will hold those people accountable in his own way, in his own time. I don't have to do that.

And so I think it's what Jesus does for us. And that's where I learned it, from 1 John in Scripture, where Jesus -- because of his love for us, he went to the Cross, he died to forgive us. And so God made the choice to forgive us for Jesus' sake, but then he did something for us by sending Jesus to the Cross. Not only dying, but then raising him from the dead to give us eternal life. And so he forgave us, then he did something for us over and above anything that we deserved.

And so I feel like the Lord set me free when I was wounded by others. In fact, I've written a book called "Wounded by God's People" that's gone through -- I go through quite a few experiences where I've been wounded by God's people. But the key is forgiveness. And you have to forgive that other person. If you don't, if you hold on to your unforgiveness thinking that if you forgive them they'll get by with it, then unforgiveness is like drinking the poison hoping the other person will die. And it doesn't hurt them, it hurts you. It develops a root of bitterness that the Bible says will rise up and defile your whole life. You have to make the choice to forgive.

And then I think to set yourself free, you need to go over and above that. You write them a note, place a phone call, take them a casserole if it's a next-door neighbor, or something that you can do to bless them. And then their response to that is up to them, but it sets you free.

And there's some people I can't engage. I know that I can't -- it's like a -- you know, you just get stuck in it if you engage back and forth. And so I've forgiven them, I've reached out to bless them, and then I just have to get on with my life and trust that God's going to sort it all out in the end. Reconciliation takes two people. So I can forgive. But if they're not willing to recognize their sin and also be willing to forgive, then there can't be reconciliation.

And you see at the end of Joseph's life -- not at the end, but towards the end of his story in Genesis, he takes his brothers through what seems like a game almost. It's like a series of events. But what he's doing is bringing them to the point that they would recognize their guilt and their shame and their sin of having sold him into slavery. And as a result of that, they end up as a family reconciling with each other. It's a beautiful story.

And not only that -- not only he forgave, but he reached out and blessed them in incredible ways by taking care of them for the rest of their lives in a very incredible -- in just a wonderful manner. He didn't hold a grudge. You could tell that he had truly forgiven as he let it go and then blessed them. So that's what sets you free.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that's good. And hard. And hard. It cannot be done outside the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God.

Anne Graham Lotz: That's right. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And, you know, when you think about it, ladies, what if Joseph had pouted in prison? What if he had ran away from Potiphar's house? What if all the things and he had just said, That's it. I'm done. I am not forgiving? The story outside of the sovereignty of God would have ended very differently. I mean -- it would have ended very differently. And so thank you, Lord. What an example for us.

And another thing to me, y'all, that is very interesting about Joseph is that -- you look at his whole story and he doesn't seem, like, just to be fighting. Like, he's not always fighting every circumstance. But he's also not passive in the midst of it. So I would like you -- whoever wants to take this, or both of you, to explain the difference between resignation and faith.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I'd have to think about that. I think Joseph -- I think he was just so determined to bring God glory in everything that he did, that he had that great faith. When he was -- I mean, everything bad that could happen happened. And then when you think it couldn't get any worse, it got worse.

Jennifer Rothschild: It got worse, yeah.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: And so he had every reason to just give up on the Lord. He had every reason to -- if I'm thinking -- answering your question correctly. But he had every reason just throw in the towel and to not continue on, but he had such great faith and he wasn't a wimp. I mean, what he was doing was a very, very difficult thing, I mean, to come in. It took time, it took energy, it took thought to make Potiphar's house thrive.

And then when Potiphar's wife, you know, looks at him and wants to sleep with him, and he's like, How could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God, that his -- you see a glimpse into his heart for the Lord. Like, he cared more about the things of God than about a fleeting fancy, you know, just something like that.

And then he gets thrown into prison and he then again could just be like, Why? you know. But he then learns more things about Pharaoh's court while he's in prison. He learns how things are run there and he's, you know, closer to Pharaoh, you know, where God's gonna raise him up after a while.

But he just stayed so focused on the Lord, and God turned him into -- instead of maybe a cocky kid that he started out to be, even though he showed those signs of leadership at the very, very beginning of his story, God used it to shape him, to strengthen him, to mold him into this rock of a man. And we do see that he wept. You know, it talks about how he just wept to the point that all of Pharaoh's household heard, you know. And when he finally he sees his brothers and then after a while, you know, ends up revealing himself to him.

So he wasn't just a wall, you know, he wasn't unfeeling. He could feel it all. But at the same time, he was so strong because God knew what it would take to make him into a man that needed to be a ruler of a world at the time. And so God's got a reason for what he's allowing all of us to go through, and he's got a greater purpose, and so we just have to trust him and know that he will pull us through, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: And, Jennifer, if I can just add --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: -- the importance of your faith being rooted and grounded in God's Word. Because you can't really have faith if you don't have the Word, something that you can cling to. And when Joseph was a teenager, God gave him two dreams. And in that day and time they didn't have Scripture or, you know, the law. God spoke to him through dreams and visions. And so it was really God's Word to Joseph. And both dreams said the same thing, that God would make Joseph into a leader, and one day even a leader over his family. And I think everywhere he went, he clung to that promise.

So when he was in Potiphar's house, he immediately set out to be a leader in Potiphar's house. You can just see it. And then God gave him favor and Potiphar put him in charge of everything in his home except for his wife. And then when he was thrown into prison, once again you see him clinging to that promise. And the Bible doesn't say it, but you can see by Joseph's actions, because the warden gives everything in the prison over to Joseph so that Joseph is running the prison.

And at each stage, I feel like he's just remembering that promise. In fact, it says when his brothers finally come and bow down before him, it says he remembered the promise. He remembered the dreams. I don't think it meant that he'd forgotten them and all of a sudden they just came to mind. I think it means that he was seeing the fulfillment of those dreams in front of his eyes, that his brothers were bowing down before him because he's now second in command basically of the whole world. Pharaoh was -- you know, the Egyptian Empire was the greatest, and he was second in command under Pharaoh.

So it's important for us, when we're going through things, to have a promise, to have God's Word that we put our faith -- just the roots of our faith down into that Word. I had it after my husband went to heaven that -- from Philippians 1 when it says that, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." But then the next verse says that, "If I go on living, then it's because God has a purpose for me." And I knew my work was not done. My husband had finished his work, but I still had more work to do. So the Lord has more fruitful labor for me now.

So those kinds of promises, when God speaks to you through his Word, you just drive the stake of your faith down into it. God doesn't mock his children. He keeps his word. He's a gentleman. You can take him at his word. And that's what Joseph experienced. It was a long time coming, maybe -- I don't know, Rachel, maybe 25, 30 years before he saw his family again before they were reconciled and he saw them bow down before him. But I think all in his life, throughout his life you see him as though he's claiming that promise because he's a leader wherever he goes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's good. Because the Lord gave him that sense of identity through his Word, and he does the same for us. And so we act accordingly and we grow in those situations. That's really good, y'all.

And I want to talk about something that you just kind of touched on a little bit, you know, how you were saying that the Lord hasn't called you home yet, so there's still purpose. Well, I want to talk about legacy. Because one of the themes in your book you deal with, like, Joseph's legacy to his family and our legacy to future generations. So, Anne, I want to know how we can develop this faithful legacy.

Anne Graham Lotz: I think you have to be a person of faith first. You can't develop a legacy if you're not right with God yourself. So the important thing is to have that personal intimate relationship with the Lord that you develop every day through prayer, Bible reading, Bible study, obedience, where you live it out on the anvil of your experience. You have fellowship with other believers and you're growing in your faith. And it's authentic.

So I can remember growing up, you know, I caught my mother on her knees at night in prayer. She would just be beside her bed on her knees for hours. And then in the morning I would go down early and she'd be at her desk studying the Bible and reading it, and I saw it lived out in her life. And so it's not a legacy, it's not something you -- in a sense you try to build, although you want to be very intentional with your children and your grandchildren to teach them God's Word.

And I know with my children, my one priority with my children, I wanted them, one, to be saved, and that I wanted them to know how to pray and get answers to prayer, I wanted them to know how to read their Bibles and hear the Spirit's whisper through the pages, I wanted them to know how to share the Gospel and lead people to Jesus. And God has answered that prayer for all three of my children.

And so the legacy is something that you -- it's who you are. It's authentic. It's an example that you set within the home behind closed doors as well as in public. But then you're intentional by the way you train and raise your children and your grandchildren to serve and love the Lord. But when you're teaching them, then they're going to watch you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: They're wanting to see if what you're teaching them is something that you're living out. If you're not, then you have the opposite effect on them and they decide, well, if you don't really think it's worth living, you know, then why do they think it's worth living? So you have to be authentic. Kids, grandkids, other people, they can spot a phony.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: And so you've just got to be authentic in your faith and in your relationship with the Lord and in your daily walk. And it doesn't mean that you don't make mistakes, it doesn't mean that you don't fail. Your kids will see that. But then they see the way you handle that, and that's a teaching moment also. The way you confess your failure, you confess you're a sinner, you get right with God.

So it's a journey. And kids will pick up on that, that it's a journey. None of us are perfect. But they see the priorities of our life, they see our relationship with the Lord.

And for myself, it was my mother's relationship with Jesus that was so contagious, I wanted it for myself. And she had great impact on me because of her -- she was fun, she was very spicy, she had a -- almost a wicked sense of humor, but deeply spiritual. And she was -- if I can put it this way, she was in love with Jesus, and that's what I wanted.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, you know, I remember that old saying that -- oh, so much for children is caught, not just taught. So there has to be consistency. And I love that.

And so speaking of legacy, Rachel-Ruth, you've been writing this book, and several books with your mom now, so that means you're not just, like, teaching about legacy, but you're embodying it. Like, you're the example of it. So I'm curious how this process of working with your mom on books, how has it impacted you and your sense of the legacy you've received and that you can therefore give?

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I think I've thought a lot about it because -- I actually love the scene in Genesis 48 when Joseph finds out Jacob is dying and he grabs his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, and he stops everything he's doing and he goes out to see Jacob in Goshen and he sits down. And Jacob, the way that he's so loving to Ephraim and Manasseh, you know, he's like, Come here. And they sit on his lap, he kisses them. You know, he's just loving on them and he's not putting them down. I mean, they saw, like, what Mom was talking about. They saw how Jacob loved them, and felt his warmth and his love, and it was very impactful.

And then Jacob gives them -- you know, he adopts them. So he gives them -- he was like, I can't give you the riches of Egypt, you know, like they already had, I mean, being so big time, their family was so big time. And said, I can give you what is eternal, and adopts him.

And so it has been impactful for me because I desperately want my girls to always continue walking with Jesus. I want them to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. And it is a hard, hard world we live in for this young generation. And there are many coming to Christ, which is so thrilling to see on these college campuses. But the temptations, the evil, all this stuff I think -- the enemy, the demons are just -- been unleashed and they're attacking these young people. And so if there is ever a time to set the example, it's now, to be a light to this young generation.

And I -- you know, I could have watched my grandparents, both sets of my grandparents, watch my parents and just been like, ah, I'm gonna do my own thing. But Jesus, because he loves each of us, like, he pursued me. And I love the Lord myself, you know. I mean, I'm so thankful I had the example of my grandparents and my parents. But like my dad says, you can be born in a garage, but it doesn't make you a car, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: And so I love Jesus because I have developed this relationship with him. God met me, you know, and came into my life. And so like Mom said, I've been living it in front of my girls. They see me writing the books or preparing to teach Bible study or going and speaking. And I always want them to see that I'm not a different person at home than I am in front of other people, that I'm actually -- I love the Lord with my whole heart.

And I know that they see that in -- to see them walking with the Lord and leading people to Christ and -- I mean, it's just been awesome. And my oldest even went through a very difficult couple of years, and I was on my knees all the time, but she's quickly come back to the Lord and on fire.

And so God has everybody on a different journey, but we have to just stay focused on our love for Jesus and then it just oozes out of us, you know? And then people see our kids, others around us see the difference. But it is -- definitely needs to be something on parents' hearts, on grandparents' hearts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I feel like there's parents out there that they're more concerned about going out with the girls, you know, and having a night out instead of thinking you've got little disciples in your house. Like, spend every minute. They grow up so fast, you know. Just invest in them, love on them, teach them. Let them act out the Bible stories, you know. And every time you see an ambulance, say, "Let's stop and pray," you know, "we don't know who's in there."

So that prayer becomes, like, almost non-stop, they're always thinking -- my girls are always stopping and praying over something. And so the point is you have to love the Lord and be on fire for the Lord, and then it just is natural. Your kids see it and then they want that same thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right, they'll catch on fire also. That's so good. Wow.

Okay, ladies, this is going to be our last question. And so I'm going to ask it and then -- maybe, Rachel-Ruth, if you'll answer first, and then, Anne, you can land the plane for us, Sister. Okay? But here's our last question. We've got some people who've been listening and they are really relating to the hard parts of Joseph's story. Okay? And they feel wounded by a myriad of things. What is that one encouragement that you can leave them with to help them stay engaged, to just stick with it, to stay engaged with God?

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I love this question, because there were so many moments when I was in so much pain in the middle of the night, just crying and scared out of my mind just thinking, am I having another one? And there's been other points in my life where I've been just deeply, horrifically hurt by some people and having to deal with all that.

And I'm here to tell you what I have just learned and know to the deepest part of my heart is that Jesus loves us. He adores you. He is for you. He is cheering you on. He is surrounding you with his love. The Bible says he sings over you.

And when you are going through something hard, his eyes are not off of you. The Bible says he watches you day and night. He never sleeps, never slumbers. He is watching you and he will pull you out at just the right moment and -- or help you. He'll send help, he'll send people to pray over you, he'll give you Scripture to encourage you.

But don't ever forget in the darkest moments how much Jesus loves you. It does not mean he doesn't love you, it doesn't mean he's got his eyes off of you. He's more -- I hear people say, "Oh, he's got bigger things to be concerned with than what's going on in my life," and that is a lie from the pit of hell. Because Jesus is bigger than anything we can ever imagine. He can be with each of us individually, fully, and watches over us and loves us and is for us.

And so just be encouraged that you are not going through this because he is wanting to get back at you. He's not that kind of a God. He loves you and will see you through and make you greater through this. So like we've said, don't turn to bitterness, anger. Don't turn on God; run to Him. And I promise you, he's got his arms open wide to embrace you, love you, and heal you and pull you through this.

Anne Graham Lotz: And, Jennifer, I don't think I could say it any better than that. In fact, when you asked the question, that was exactly what I was thinking, is that God loves you. And, in fact, in my devotions this morning -- I read this little Daily Light every morning. I read morning and evening in the morning. But it just says, "How precious are your thoughts to me, O God. How great is the sum of them. If I should count them, there'd be more number than the sand. When I wake, I'm still with you."

And then it goes on down and it quotes from Song of Solomon. "But like an apple tree among the trees of the woods, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down in the shade with great delightness. Fruit was sweet to my taste. He brought me to the banqueting house and his banner over me was love."

And it's just the picture of the bridegroom taking the bride in. And he puts a banner over so everybody knows that she belongs to him and that he's in love with her.

And God loves you. He loves you so much, he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross to take away your sin. Jesus loves you so much that when the Father sent him, he came. If you'd been the only person alive on Planet Earth, Jesus would have come to die for you. And he rose up from the dead to give you eternal life, which is not just heaven when you die, but it's that personal, permanent love relationship with God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit right now.

And then Jesus went back to heaven and God sent down the Holy Spirit to come and live inside of you. The Holy Spirit is like your engagement ring, and you receive the Holy Spirit. That's God's seal on your life that the best is yet to come. That when this life is over, he's going to take you to a place he's prepared for you, and that you're an authentic, validated child of God.

So life is hard. It throws us difficult curveballs. We can be wounded, we can cry and suffer, experience betrayal, slander, persecution, ostracism, marginalization, whatever you want to say, you know. It's just disease and death and divorce. But through it all, God will use every single thing, as Rachel has pointed out, to develop you into the person that God wants you to be, until others can see Jesus reflected in you.

And that's one thing we haven't talked about, Jennifer, is in the book, at the end of every chapter we've written a little section, "Jesus in the Shadows." And we see Jesus in the shadows of Joseph's life. He's a beautiful Old Testament picture of Jesus. And you see him loved by the father, and Jesus was loved by his Father. Sent on a mission by his father, and Jesus was sent on a mission by his Father. He came to his brothers, his brothers betrayed him and sold him into slavery.

And Jesus came to his own and his own received him not. And he was not -- Joseph was persecuted. Jesus wasn't just persecuted, he was crucified. And then when God raised Joseph up and put him second in command of Egypt, God raised up Jesus from the dead, put him at his right hand, put all authority in the whole universe under his feet.

And so the similarities are incredible, and I think Joseph is a picture of who Jesus is and the way he is to us. He's forgiven us. He gives us heaven and all spiritual blessings in heavenly places even right now. So there is a beautiful -- the core of my life, the center point, the hub of the wheel of my life is that relationship with Jesus. I spend time with him every morning talking to him in prayer, reading God's Word just to receive what he has to say to me, then living it out during the day and sharing it with others.

So that's what keeps the fire going in my heart, and I think that's the only thing that will keep fire going in the heart. When we're suffering, when we're wounded, when we have hard things, when the whole world is in chaos, we don't want to lose our fire or our focus. We want to be faithful to what God's called us to be, and that requires that time spent developing that personal relationship with him. It's everything.

KC Wright: Preach it, Anne!

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach it!

KC Wright: Woo! Woman of God's on fire. Keep the fire going by staying in the Word and staying close to God. Stay faithful, friends. The best is yet to come. God will use all things to develop you into the person he wants you to be so others see Jesus reflected in you.

Okay, I may have repeated myselves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or everything she said.

KC Wright: Right, right, right. But it was so worth hearing again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it was.

KC Wright: This was really special to hear Anne and Rachel-Ruth together. What a special, special podcast. And there was so much in this conversation you need to hear again. I know I do. So go to the Show Notes to get the book. Plus, you can read the full transcript right there. It's at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/408.

And I haven't asked in a while, so let me ask now. Please, pretty please, if you could take some time today -- won't take but a second -- leave us a review. A kind one, please.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: That'd be nice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Actually, why don't you in your review interpret KC's dream. Okay, go ahead.

KC Wright: A 5-star one, of course. A big ol' review there. Your words make a big difference, so thanks for being a part of the family by sharing your heart on whatever platform you listen to.

All right, this one is a wrap. So today, trust God in the details. Because there's a Scripture in Psalms that says he delights in every detail of our lives. You can, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: So maybe it was a God dream.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it wasn't.

KC Wright: Okay. No, it wasn't.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it was just your psychological -- you're trying to work out your psychological issues. Boy, it must have been a long dream because you got a lot of them.

KC Wright: But you're so smart how you wrapped your mind around that. I'm gonna start telling you more of my dreams.

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't put too much weight in that. I don't know how accurate it was.