4:13 Podcast: Can I Write a Beautiful Story With My Life? With Sally Clarkson [Episode 355]

Sally Clarkson: And I realized at that time that as I look back on the decades of my life, there was one incident after the other where the Lord would present an opportunity to me, whether it was through meeting with someone or whatever, and that all of those decisions led to the legacy of a flourishing life. It wasn't all easy, there were dark times, good times, but I learned to kind of live by faith in what the Holy Spirit was doing. I would say, "Lord, what would your Holy Spirit dream through me this year?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Today on The 4:13, author Sally Clarkson is inviting you to write a beautiful story with your life. She is going to show you how God's grace empowers you to lead a well-lived life loving and encouraging others. She's going to help you cultivate joy that will inspire you to invite God into your own story so that you will leave a beautiful legacy.

So wherever you are in your life's journey, my friend, today's conversation is going to guide you toward a life filled with direction, meaning, and contentment. Doesn't that sound good? Well, we're gonna live well today on The 4:13, so let's get it started.

Oh, but one more thing I gotta tell you. We are gonna talk about writing this great story in my happy place. No, not Target, not Starbucks. Oxford, England. Yes. Sally's going to talk about Oxford, England, and you don't want to miss it. So here we go, mate.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Jennifer here, helping you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. I'm sitting next to my Seeing Eye Guy, KC Wright, who smells awfully good today, I must add.

KC Wright: Well, thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: He's wearing a new cologne. What's it called?

KC Wright: It's simply titled "You."

Jennifer Rothschild: Y-o-u?

KC Wright: Y-o-u.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it works. It really smells good. We should put an affiliate link if we have one.

KC Wright: Oh, yeah, can we get a sponsor for this podcast?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. That would be nice.

KC Wright: An unlimited -- unlimited lifetime supply of this cologne, because I love -- I love a good cologne. If you go into my room right now, I've got a dresser, and on my dresser are all my different colognes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You do smell good for a man, KC.

KC Wright: But none of them, none of them have gotten -- I've gotten so much great feedback from this one, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I think it works with your chemistry evidently.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, honestly, it almost smells unisex, like I could wear it. It's that nice. It's kind of -- it's subtle, but strong. Kind of like you -- never mind. You're not subtle. You're strong.

KC Wright: Hey --

Jennifer Rothschild: You need to wear a subdued cologne because your personality is so big.

KC Wright: My personality's so loud, I need to -- I can't have a strong personality and a strong cologne.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Right. You got to balance it out.

KC Wright: I'd be knocking people over.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you've got to balance it out.

KC Wright: Now, listen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: People right now want to know what Jennifer Rothschild likes to wear.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

KC Wright: Well, first of all, when you walk into JR's house -- we've talked about this -- your nose hairs dance. They are doing jigs because her home always smells amazing. But then, JR, you always smell so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well -- so just like people give you a lot of comments on your You --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- fragrance, the one I wear that I get the most compliments -- and I'm wearing it right now -- is called Angel by Thierry Mugler.

KC Wright: Never heard of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it smells so good. It's really soft. The reason I found it is I hugged a lady at a conference one time, I'm like, "What are you wearing? I must have it." So that's how I found out about it.

KC Wright: Family, are we surprised that our JR is wearing a cologne called Angel?

Jennifer Rothschild: Aw. I need the help. It -- yeah. You know what?

KC Wright: I'm not surprised.

Jennifer Rothschild: I have a necklace that says "Grace" on it, so I can wear that when I'm not feeling it. Like, I don't have it on the inside, I'm gonna wear it on the outside. So I'm not -- when I'm not angelic on the inside, I might smell like an angel on the outside.

Okay. Listen, y'all, we love you and we're so thankful you're with us. You're gonna love this conversation with Sally. And because I told you at the top end that we -- she is talking about Oxford, England, a little bit, I thought I would include -- so on the Show Notes -- KC will tell you how to get there at the end.

But on the Show Notes, I'm going to include a link for you to one of the times I went to Oxford, England, and I took a bunch of audio pictures. So instead of them being visual pictures, they're little audio captures of my time in Oxford. And so you'll get to visit it through my ears, and I think you'll enjoy it. So make sure you go to the Show Notes today to get a link to that audio pictures of Oxford, England.

All right, mates, let's introduce Sally.

KC Wright: Sally Clarkson is a best-selling author, speaker, and beloved mentor who has dedicated her life to inspiring women to live for Christ. Her podcast "At Home With Sally" has over 28 million downloads. Sally, get a vision for your life.

She has been married to her husband, Clay, for more than 40 years -- how beautiful -- and they have four adult children. But today, Sally lives between the mountains of Colorado and the rolling fields of England.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, friends, I'm so glad Sally's here with us. And, Sally, before I even ask you a question, I need to tell you something. I got to talk to your daughter a while back.

Sally Clarkson: Oh, my goodness. Which one?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Sarah? No.

Sally Clarkson: Oh, you talked to Sarah. Or Joy?

Jennifer Rothschild: Sarah.

Sally Clarkson: Both of them are into all this stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. No, I haven't talked to Joy yet. That's nice to know. No, Sarah. She's the one who lives in the UK, is that correct?

Sally Clarkson: Correct. Well, they both do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay. They both have my hearts then. Because -- anyway, I was so impressed with her and -- just with her honesty and her ability to communicate. So let me just start with a thank you, mama. You did a good job. You did a very good job.

But we're going to talk a little bit about getting to Oxford in a second, but I want to start with your title of your book. Because we're going to talk about this latest book of yours, "Well Lived." And I like that title, and I think it is open for interpretation. So I would like to know what you believe well lived is. Like, what does that mean to you?

Sally Clarkson: Well, it's a long story as to how we got to that title. But I was approaching my 69th year -- now I'm 71 -- and I was pondering my life and I thought God has been so gracious to me. I have seen him bless my life, I've seen him teach me, stretch me, grow me. And I thought I would really love to write a book to women, men, whoever want to, to say it is possible with the story where you are right now today.

That is the place where God wants to work and write his character in your life, stress you in your faith, bless you in your walk. Right now where you are in your story is the place that God is going to use in your life to live a legacy, a legacy of faith, a legacy of love, a legacy of light.

And there's so much more, obviously, that I could say, that I say in the book, but I just wanted for women to understand some of the things that I had learned and kind of evaluated in the decades of my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that too, because then a woman who's younger -- well, and here's the point. We're all the youngest we'll ever be. So whatever age we are right now listening, we can implement some of these lessons, because we do want a well-lived life. And so I want us to go to Oxford, though. I gotta be honest with you, my people who listen to The 4:13 know Oxford is my happy place. Well, that and Target.

Sally Clarkson: Well, how fun.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love to go to Target. But I love Oxford, yes.

Sally Clarkson: We could have such fun together there. I love Oxford too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, girl, it is one of my favorites. I've been so many times. And I have said when it's time for us all to move into the new earth, I want the Lord to relocate me in the redeemed and restored Oxford. So anyway...

Sally Clarkson: Oh, I understand. I understand.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you do.

So you talk about, in your book, your time in Oxford and how you say that you filled your days with what really matters. Okay? So I bet that's not what -- you know, some of us might be able to say about our days that we don't fill our days with what matters or what matters to us. Maybe what matters to somebody else. So I'm curious, what did the change of scenery and just being distant from your home here in the U.S. teach you?

Sally Clarkson: Well, I love being overseas. I've lived about a fifth of my time as an adult in different countries in Europe, as well as in Oxford. And I find that it's a time when I can kind of get away from what is expected of me to a place where I'm more free to evaluate what kind of life do I want to live, what do I want to invest in.

And so Oxford for me -- as you know, I'm a walker. So I walked literally probably over a thousand miles on the canals, in the parks, in the meadows. I had a chance to journal every day. I had read how journaling is so good for you emotionally, spiritually in every way. I decided I was going to make people my priority and say no to a lot of busy things. And some of those people were my grandchildren.

I've got four grandchildren that live there. And I was able, by God's grace -- I worked in two different places that offered me a visa because of some of the work I had done in my past, and so I was able to meet women from all over the world, who lived in totally different contexts and had different stories.

And so it gave me a chance in a way to begin looking at people in their heart and through their stories, and not to judge them on what they were presenting to me at the time, but to give them an understanding heart for what they had been through and what they had experienced. And so it was just a time that was a little bit protected from the busyness that I had lived in America.

Jennifer Rothschild: I really like that. Because you talked about your priority was people. And really when it's all said and done, I mean, that is Christ's priority also. So we really don't have to look very far to what matters when we think of it that way, the simplicity of that. And I want to talk to you even more about that in a second.

But in your book you also write that God had provided you with pathways to follow and truths to enact in order to live well. Okay, pathways to follow and truths to enact. So tell us what you mean by that. And how can we do the same?

Sally Clarkson: Well, I think that -- I wish that more people understood that the Word of God is oxygen to your whole life. If you aren't spending time investing in the wisdom of God, the stories of God, the life of Christ, then you're not going to have the strength and the power and the wisdom that you need to make everyday priorities and everyday wisdom.

And so from the time I was a young Christian and -- I was a young adult, someone met with me and said you need -- the Bible is the vocabulary of God. And he wants to be close to you, he wants to love you well, he wants to inform your decisions. The Holy Spirit will prompt you and remind you of all the things that he said.

So I think the first thing I would say is it really takes a heart to seek after God's Word and to seek after his motivation and his life. And I felt like a lot of times people were practicing religion or living up to works, but I don't know that a lot of people knew how to draw close to the heart of Christ. And so that's the starting point for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that is the perfect pathway. I mean -- and really, when you think about it, I love what your friend told you, it being the vocabulary of God. Those are the words of God. And that's what brings us life and leads us to life.

And that reminds me too, because I read that there was a prayer that you prayed in college before you even really knew Christ personally. And it was something like, "If you are there, God, please let me know you." So share that story with us and how your prayer was actually answered.

Sally Clarkson: Well, it's a really interesting story. I didn't tell anyone. I was living on the tenth floor of a dorm room. And this sweet, very shy woman came to my door, knocked at my door and said, "I don't suppose you'd want to take a religious survey." Well, I'd been praying every night, if there's a God in the universe, let me know you. And so I thought, wow, she's an angel, she's been sent by God.

So she went through this whole testimony, the things that she had learned in her life and what was in this religious survey, and then she shared just basically how I could know the love of God and the purpose of God. And it was as though all of the things she said to me were the answers I had been looking for.

I had been longing -- I thought if a person really knew God, if they knew the God who threw the stars into place, if they knew the God who made chili peppers and fajitas and music and color, wouldn't they be different? Wouldn't their lives be more excellent, more fulfilled? And so I was looking for the integrity of faith as well as the understanding of truth, and she kind of embodied that for me. And so from that moment on, my life was totally different.

I eventually wanted my children to see an organic live faith in my life, that it was about the sunrises and sunsets, the stories he told, the compassion he extended toward us. And so it was a life-changing moment for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and then what God did in changing your life, he has done through you to help change others' lives. I love that. And I hope we're all hearing that very clearly. When you pray, God hears. And he answered, and look what he's done in Sally's life. And we're all benefiting, which is beautiful.

Sally Clarkson: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so let's go back to Oxford for a minute. So in the book you talk about full circle moments, like when you realize that, you know, other women shared the same hopes that you felt in college. So talk about that.

Sally Clarkson: Well, I guess I look back and -- I'm kind of an adventurer. And I realized that when God opened the door, I walked through it. I took risks. I was challenged -- it's a long story. But I was challenged when I was a brand-new staff person with a student movement -- I'd only worked with them for a year -- and 7,000 of us heard this incredible message about what was going on in communist East Europe.

And they said, you know, we would love to challenge you to come to an unprecedented opportunity to share the Gospel with -- you know, behind the Iron Curtain, behind closed doors. And I thought, oh, they're never going to accept me because I'm -- you know, I'm just so immature and young. But when the meeting was over, I ran to the office, signed up as quickly as I could. And then I later found out, out of 7,000 people, only four people said yes.

And so that was a lesson to me. Walk through the doors that God opens. Share the love, the words, the life of God with those people who are now in your life, your neighbor, your friend, your children, and that becomes -- your story becomes the platform from which you have the opportunity to encourage other people out of the life that you've been given.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's why we all have the ability, through God's grace, to write our own stories. But I love that for you it was just taking a yes when you felt unqualified, like you would probably eventually get a no, but you just ran through the door anyway.

Sally Clarkson: I thought, might as well try.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Sally Clarkson: This is what faith looks like. Step out in faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is exactly. I would much rather, Sally, regret being told no or failing at something than not trying --

Sally Clarkson: Me too.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- 100% of the time. Yeah, 100%.

Sally Clarkson: Me too.

And I realized at that time that -- as I look back on the decades of my life, there was one incident after the other where the Lord would present an opportunity to me, whether it was through meeting with someone or whatever, and that all of those decisions led to the legacy of a flourishing life. It wasn't all easy, there were dark times, good times, but I learned to kind of live by faith and what the Holy Spirit was doing. I would say, "Lord, what would your Holy Spirit dream through me this year?"

Jennifer Rothschild: A legacy of a flourishing life. And it's not something you conjured up, it's something you responded to. It's a beautiful thought.

All right, let's go back to your book. You talk about -- in your book you touch on themes of royalty, which is really kind of cool. Like, I think even your grandchildren might refer to you by a royal name.

Sally Clarkson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So tell us about all this, this whole royalty thing. And, like, how can the women who are listening right now become the queens of their own domains?

Sally Clarkson: Well, I think it's real important for people to understand I'm not talking about something cheesy, but I am talking about something real.

My daughter Sarah, who you met, had a little -- the whole reason I went over there was to help her as she was finishing her Master's of Theology degree in Oxford, help her with her baby just two hours a week. And we had watched a show on BBC called "Lark Rise to Candleford," and there was this older woman who sat at the top of the hill. It was about -- you know, from over 100 years ago. And she would disseminate wisdom, and she would give kindness, and she would give comfort, and she would cook meals for people.

And so when Sarah had her first baby, she said, "You know, Mama, I think your grandchildren should call you 'Queenie,'" because that was the name of the older woman who sat at the top of the hill. And then my daughter Joy said, "No, no. It was my idea." So my grandchildren started calling me Queenie.

And a queen is somebody who rules over the domain that she's been given. Like, my domain is the Clarkson Kingdom, and I rule over my children, my home, my profession, the friends I have, the backstory I have. That I am given agency to decide what I will do to build a great story out of the story that I've been given. And that's what a queen does. She takes care of the people in her domain. She takes care of the place in her domain. She basically rules and uses her life in such a way that those who her life touches will flourish as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does kind of -- because when -- you know, just on the surface, like you mentioned the word "cheesy," we think of, oh, the scepter and the crown and everyone bow down --

Sally Clarkson: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and that's a totally different paradigm --

Sally Clarkson: Yeah. And I think --

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and it's the kind we want.

Sally Clarkson: I think God created us for that. He said -- he blessed them out of his mouth. The first thing he did was bless them. And then he said, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it." And the whole word there of subdue that was given to Adam and Eve is not just to rule over it, but to cause it to become productive.

So when I subdue my world, the Clarkson world, Sally Clarkson world, I am bringing order to chaos. I'm bringing light into darkness. I'm bringing love where anger has lived before. And I see myself as the person who's able to create those aspects because I have God living through me. Christian means "Christ in one."

And so it became a picture for me to give to my children of what it looks like to rule over the domain you've been given.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well said. Well said.

Okay. Another theme in your book that I want you to unpack for us: greater service. That's a theme you talk about a lot, greater service. So what is greater service to you, and why does it matter?

Sally Clarkson: Well, I really fell in love with Jesus. I know that a lot of people have too. But I just mean I would watch him, I would read him. And he was the God who washed 120 dirty men toes the night that he was going to be crucified. You know, he was the God who served. And he said, If I've done this, then you need to do this. And he made -- he broiled fish -- or he fried fish on the lake when his men were hungry. He took children into his arms and probably kissed them on their head and blessed them. And he had compassion for those who had fallen.

And I thought, you know what? I know that I need to become the servant leader of my life and people in the same way that Jesus did, because that's the real foundation of godly influence. And so he gave me a pattern for how to implement this discipleship mentoring that I wanted to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'd love for you to share it, if it's easy to give us a quick understanding of that.

Sally Clarkson: Like, for my children or for my husband?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Sally Clarkson: I really saw myself -- when I was a mom, when I took my children into my heart, it was as though God said these children will have implications for eternity. How are you going to love them in such a way that they will believe in my love when they're teenagers? How are you going to encourage them and stimulate them and read to them and train them in such a way that they will understand what virtue is?

So from the moment they got up in the morning, I was saying, "You're exactly the gift that God wanted me to have. I love you so much," and, "I think you're going to tell a great story in your world." And I was serving, loving, giving, and laying my life down for the disciples that God had placed in my life to wash their dirty men toes and to cook them fish on the shore. You know, I just thought -- it's a fully dimensional life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Sally Clarkson: And I ended up loving it more than I ever knew I would. I had never changed a diaper -- I only had brothers -- and so I had no idea how much I would love being able to embrace them and kind of send them into the world prepared for being -- themselves for being lights.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And they are. They are. And I just -- but I love that picture of greater service, how it just showed up in ordinary life.

Sally Clarkson: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sometimes people think -- especially women, if they're a mom -- they think, I just got to get through. I just got get through, get them launched. And it is not a survival of the fittest, it really isn't. It is an investment in eternity. So I love that, Sally.

So as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking of our friends who are listening and I'm wondering. Okay, so let's -- so what if someone is listening right now, and she's looking at her own life and she thinks, hmm, I'm not sure it's been well lived. It feels more well squandered to me, you know, than well lived. So how would you encourage her? And is that true? And is it too late?

Sally Clarkson: It's never too late. I think that women are longing for direction and for vision. Women were made to be civilizers and to be great in their sphere. I think that most of life happens in the hidden times. Most of who we become is how we choose to love well or to serve well when no one is watching. That's what pleases the heart of God. But I also think that those are the places that lead us to living a better story.

And I love in Scripture where it says, "Forgetting what lies behind, and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on." And I think that -- I just wrote an article about this actually yesterday. But I never knew how sinful and selfish and petty I could be. Still am, you know. Little by -- I feel like God said to me, Oh, you're just a toddler, you've got a long way to grow. So all of us are toddlers in comparison to the greatness and the love of God. But wherever we are, we can make a movement forward.

And that's one reason I do journal. I write down my goals. My goal for last year was to try to leave a bit of the love of God in the life of every person I encountered. So when I would go to my barista in Oxford, I would say, "You are my favorite person in the world because every morning you make the best cup of coffee I've ever had."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Sally Clarkson: Or I would say to my next-door neighbor, "That is the cutest dog I've ever seen. Tell me the story of your dog," and then we would start a friendship. But -- you know, this year, other things. I'm trying to really live a life of a servant leader and to live with integrity this year, even when I'm irritated.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Sally Clarkson: So it's just, I think that it's taking those little steps in the areas that maybe we've fallen in and readjusting and moving in the direction of living more wisely, practicing more wisdom, practicing more love.

Jennifer Rothschild: "Intentional" is the word I'm hearing through that that you haven't said. But it is, it's very intentional. It's thoughtful and it's intentional.

And, you know, Sally, I know you're a speaker also, and so am I. And there's times when I've done a presentation and I'm like -- you know when it's not going well, but, like, you can't get out of it, right? So you're -- it's not going well, but then it ends well. And I have learned over the years, people remember how it ended. They may not remember the middle part where you wandered around and -- but they remember the end.

And so wherever we are in life, we can start today and we can end well, and that's where -- that will be remembered. It matters. It just matters.

Sally Clarkson: It sure does.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So this is really lovely. And, yes, someday I'm going to walk a thousand miles with you in Oxford. I would love it. I would love it.

But let's get to our last question. There's some who are listening right now who are feeling like, wow, I'd love to have coffee with Sally. I wish I'd had somebody like this in my life to do life with and -- you know, but I'm feeling very alone on my journey.

So is there a verse, you know -- and the one you just shared from Philippians was fantastic about pressing on toward the -- but is there another verse, or maybe even a prayer, that you could leave us with that will just let us feel very encouraged that we're not alone on this journey?

Sally Clarkson: Well, I think one of my lifetime verses is that nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither heights, nor depth, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come. Whoever you are right now, God sees you, he loves you, he cares for the days of your life. He wants to empower you, he wants you to feel grace and hope.

And I think holding fast to that -- I planted a flag in my life on that. Okay, God, I'm not feeling it today, but you have said that your love would never leave me. So, Lord, work in my life today and I'm going to act in faith that you do love me.

And it was so fun actually doing this book because they sent a group of three people from the United States, a photographer and two other people, and they just followed me all around Oxford and took pictures to put in the book. There's hundreds of pictures of my favorite places.

But it was funny how this whole theme of the unconditional love of God -- we would walk together as we'd go to a new place to take a picture, and all three of the women -- it really caused me to understand that all of us feel a need for God's grace and unconditional love. Wherever we are, whatever we're doing, we don't feel like we measure up; and yet in God's eyes, he loves us. He would give anything to be close to us.

And so I think that's the message I would start out with wherever you are. And then the second thing is just call a friend. Make a friend, find a friend. Find someone who calls you to your best self and causes you to know that you are loved.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, loved that. And, by the way, after we finished, Sally and I just kept talking all things Oxford, of course. But did you hear what she said? We need to press into the love of God. Because he does love you, our friend. He does see you and he cares deeply for you.

KC Wright: And she said find a friend, make a friend, be a friend. We need each other. Before we go, I want to read one quote from Sally's book, because it totally sums up so much of what we just talked about today. And by the way, don't forget, you can go to the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/355. Get connected to Sally's books and the Oxford audio pictures Jennifer mentioned.

But here's the quote I want to share with you. She said, "Our way to this fruitful, flourishing, well-lived life comes when we willingly accept the mantle of devotion with a servant's heart full of love for him, creating beauty again and again, loving, forgiving, sacrificing, pouring our lives out to bring light and redemption to our world every day." Woo, it's powerful. Well, that was beyond well said.

So we've got this. You can write a beautiful story starting right now with your life because -- here's truth -- you can do all things -- all means all -- through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I will tell you, KC, I am itching to go back to Oxford. I am itching.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, some people like to go places and they're like, I've seen that, I've been there, I've done that.

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I could go over and over and over and over and over to Oxford. In fact, I am just convinced that when the Lord ushers in the new heavens and the new earth --

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- he's going to let me live in the new redeemed and restored Oxford. Yes.