4:13 Podcast: Can I Believe That God Really Loves Me? With Rev. Chris Lee [Episode 356]

Rev. Chris Lee: We need to rediscover being still with the Lord. And one of my favorite Scriptures is from Psalm 46. I think it's verse 10. And it says, "Be still and know that I am God." And that psalm is all about tumult in the nations and warfare and crises, and then in the midst of that psalm God says, "Be still and know that I am God." And there's something really powerful about that, and I really want us to rediscover sitting being still, acknowledging that God is there, is present, loves us, and just be human.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, mates. Today we are going back to England for our conversation on The 4:13.

A few years ago, Reverend Chris Lee started sharing encouragement on Instagram in these short 60-Second Sermons, and people really resonated with the spiritual break that he was offering on social media. That's when he decided that he would write a book that would help people fight back, put down their phones, sit before God, and know that they are his beloved.

So today, we are going to talk about that book, and Chris is going to gently guide you to escape the chaos and focus on who you are before God. You are about to dive into some essential truth, so settle in, take a deep breath, and let's focus on the love of God. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Welcome back. KC and I are in the podcast closet. Two friends, one topic, and zero stress. And we're going to talk about a really beautiful experience that this pastor, this vicar, by the way, from the Church of England, has had on social media But it's really the content that I am so thrilled you're about to hear.

I needed this today, because I just had a dentist appointment and I have dental anxiety. I have a great dentist. I have the best dentist in the world. Like, I would trust him with my life --

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild

-- but I still have dental anxiety. I did not have a great dentist when I was a kid.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think he was anti-anesthetics or -- you know, anesthesia. So it was always painful and difficult, and he was rough, and so I break out in sweat before I do anything at the dentist. But I will say, it's always a good feeling when I'm done. Like, I brush my teeth all the time, I floss, and there's still stuff there. I'm like, how does that stick when I'm so careful? But, oh, my gosh, I'm always so glad -- I'm like, whew, I made it through another six months.

KC Wright: I love me a good dentist visit.

Jennifer Rothschild: You do?

KC Wright: As a matter of fact -- oh, I look forward to it. I'm a weirdo. You know, I'm the guy that avoids the doctor at all costs, like most men, you know. But I love going to my dentist. I get my teeth cleaned every three months.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: The only thing is is I'm a feeler, so I'm always feeling bad for the lady cleaning my teeth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Why?

KC Wright: I know she's making good money, but I'm always like, I want to do something for you. You just went through the nastiness of pulling things out of my teeth. I mean, I want to go to her house and make her a casserole and put a load of laundry on for her or something. I don't know. I just feel like I need to do something for her after she spent, like, an hour pulling stuff out of my teeth.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's funny.

KC Wright: But I am a flosser -- remember, only floss the teeth you want to keep -- and I'm a -- you need to brush three times a day, I'm convinced, and you've got to floss. You've got to floss. You've got to have those pearly whites.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, my dentist used to say if you had to make a choice between brushing and flossing, you could only do one for the rest of your life, you should floss.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But I always feel like I'm born again when I leave the dentists. Oh, my goodness. I just love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I wish I could see it as a spiritual experience. It is. It improves my prayer life.

Okay, let's talk to our vicar, our pastor, Reverend Chris Lee.

KC Wright: Reverend Chris Lee is the vicar of a growing church in London, England. He also hosts the podcast "Come Read With Me." He's also a contributor to the BBC radio show called "Pause For Thought." His Instagram, 60-Second Sermons, and videos have been downloaded on YouTube over 350 million times. Chris is married to Jenny, and they live in London.

So here is Jennifer and the internet's favorite vicar, Reverend Chris Lee.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Chris, I have been looking forward to this conversation because -- well, because I'm an anglophile, for one. But also you are an English priest --

Rev. Chris Lee: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and you are vicar of a very growing church in London, which I want to hear more about. But there's a lot of people who are listening, who are obviously not in London, and they know you because you have this big following on social media.

So two questions as we get going here. One, for those who may not know what a vicar is, I want you to tell us what a vicar is. And secondly, tell us, how did you become the internet's favorite vicar?

Rev. Chris Lee: Well, firstly, hello, everyone. Thank you for having me on, Jennifer. It's a real pleasure to be with you and speak across the pond and -- yeah, so I am a vicar.

Now, in the Church of England, we have kind of different titles. And if you think about it, vicar is really like a job title. So being a vicar would be equivalent in the States as kind of, I would say, probably a senior pastor. You might call them a senior pastor. So I'm in charge of the church. So I am the senior pastor in charge of the church. And being a vicar basically says you're the top guy in that church.

But I'm also a priest, so it's kind of confusing. Am I a priest or am I a vicar? What's going on there?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right, right.

Rev. Chris Lee: So the vicar is my job title. The priest in a sense is my qualification level. So I have the authority in the Church of England to conduct marriages and blessings and baptisms and sacraments, so I can baptize and I can do communion. So in order to do that, you have to become a priest.

So when you -- this is a bit complicated. But when you feel the call to lead a church in the Church of England, you go through discernment and ordination. So after you've gone through a discernment period, you then get ordained.

And being ordained, you become what's called a deacon. You'll find that in the Bible, the kind of diaconate. And in that deacon period, you become basically training to be a priest. And you're helping gather the people into worship, and you're helping to lead them, but you're not quite a priest yet.

And then after a year of serving as a deacon, you become priest, and you get ordained to become priest. And that means in a sense you have the magic hands. If you'd forgive that term. But you have the ability to bless and do different things. And once you're a priest, you can then do many different jobs in the Church of England. And one of those jobs is a vicar, and that means you get to be the senior pastor of a church and you run the church. So I'm the vicar of my area.

And in England, we're also a state church, so it's a bit different to America. So we have in a sense the given spiritual authority over everyone, whether they have faith or not faith. In my area of land, I have in a sense the right to be their spiritual authority. And kind of what that means is -- in practice it doesn't really mean that much. But in a kind of traditional sense, I'm the spiritual care for everyone who lives in a particular area. So I have 14,000 people in my particular area, and in essence, traditionally I would be the person they go for any kind of spiritual problems or anything. Or encouragements or whatever.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Rev. Chris Lee: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's super interesting. And, yes, I think for a lot of people, that was super clarifying too. And so you take that from the Church of England to the internet.

Rev. Chris Lee: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so what in the world? How did that happen that you suddenly become the internet's favorite vicar?

Rev. Chris Lee: Yeah. So guys in America, again, might not be like, well, how did he become famous? So basically, in the UK I was running a small church. And then I ended up being on a friend's YouTube channel. And I became quite popular on the YouTube channel where I would be in my collar, in my dog collar, and I would be asked questions of kind of cultural significance of the time.

So, like, what do I think about, I don't know, music videos? And particularly, what do you think about Ariana Grande in this music video, or Billie Eilish, or Justin Bieber? And I was coming on my friend's YouTube channel kind of talking about the culture today and expressing my opinion and then trying to draw into that kind of Christian teaching.

And I came across, I think, as kind of fun and non-judgmental, but also holding some sort of, hopefully, authenticity. And people kind of like that. And then lots of people wanted me back on the YouTube channel, so I was coming on again and again.

And then they sought me out on Instagram, and then my Instagram filled up. And suddenly I went from, you know, taking photos of food or seeing holiday pictures -- which is what everyone does -- to suddenly having thousands and thousands of people following me and thinking, goodness, I've got this opportunity to share the Gospel and to be a little bit more of a positive influence in what can seem as maybe a superficial media.

So I started to do this thing called 60-Second Sermons, where I would take out 60 seconds and I would just preach a little -- kind of a short message of Christ to people. And really that took off, and lots of people followed that. And it then got me national coverage and I went on English primetime television a few times, and Good Morning Britain and This Morning. And they're kind of like your probably Good Morning America or stuff like that that you might have over there. So I did that, and I became well known through that.

And then I did some BBC stuff and radio and -- yeah. And then books. So everything has kind of come out of initially me not really trying to find this, but having the Lord open up this opportunity for me and then me really going for it within that and seeing this growth and this wonderful ministry that I now see as, weirdly, part of my ministry.

So I have this kind of localized being a vicar, a locally rooted community, but then I also have this, you know, online presence where in a sense the world is my parish, is what Wesley said -- and I'm stealing that a little bit -- where suddenly the internet opened up the world to me so I could preach and teach on that. So that's what I've been doing as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what I love about that, Chris, is that sometimes when we love the Lord and we're passionate to serve him and to reach others, we think we have to achieve something. And though you've been a good steward of the calling God gave you locally, it is something you received, not achieved, to have the more international ministry via social media. And I think all of us need to hear that.

Because what I've heard in your story is one step of obedience at a time and then God chooses how he wants to multiply that. And not -- a larger audience does not mean a greater ministry. It's just a reflection of God's will for what he's called you to do.

I think that's so important for us to pay attention to, because we always think bigger is better. Bigger is beautiful. But I'm sure there's got to be some things that have come with the bigger -- you know, because my dad was a pastor here in the States, and that's a full-time life right there. And so then to add the world to your parish.

Rev. Chris Lee: Yeah. That's really poignant because -- I was a missionary in Africa for a while at the age of 21. I lived in Tanzania in a very remote area. And just a quick story that you made me think of talking about that kind of obedience thing is -- and the bigger, it was given.

So basically long story short, I was asked to preach at a church on Easter Sunday. And I was driving to this church in the middle of nowhere in this thick, very remote area. And I was thinking to myself, oh, wow, you know, look at me. I'm this missionary, I'm doing this great work.

And I just felt the nudge of the Lord to look down in these holes in the ground. And in these holes in the ground were these tiny little termites, and each of these termites was moving in and out of each other with a single grain of sand in their mouths. And if you know anything about termite mounds, they can grow really big. They can grow, like, 10, 15 feet out of the ground. But whatever you see above the surface, the caverns below are, like, triple the size.

And the Lord really spoke to me and said, "Look, Chris, I've given you a grain of sand here, and I want you to just put this grain of sand where I want you to put it and then come back to me and get another grain of sand," similarly to what these little termites were doing.

And the thing is, he was also kind of speaking to me about how I've got all my children all over the world, I'm calling them to obedience to their grain of sand. Like, what's the thing that I've given them to do? And then with that obedience, I will build this kingdom rising out of this world. And whatever you see on the surface, what I'm doing below the surface, what I'm doing around the kingdom is so much bigger, and you don't know what it is. So just take your grain of sand and do with it what I ask you, and come get another one when you're ready.

And so, yeah, that kind of -- you made me think of that when you said about being received rather than achieved. That was a humbling moment for me when I was just like, oh, yeah, sorry, Lord. I was getting a bit proud in myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, but how beautiful that is. I'm so grateful you shared that story. I really am. I know that was of the Lord. And so what I hear, too, is we all do it in the shadow of the Cross. We all do it in the shadow of the Cross.

And it's interesting to me, Chris, as I hear you speak, I think I kind of may understand a little bit of the answer about what I'm about to ask you, because it seems that not just Christians, but what I call pre-Christians, they follow you. And you have a large following. And so I'm curious why you think this is, because you are clearly Gospel-centered in your messages.

Rev. Chris Lee: I think a lot of people are hungry today. I think a lot of young people are hungry and they're searching.

And I think the world is moving to a place -- we talk about secularism. But I'm not sure that it's a growth of secularism. I think it's a growth of people searching for more and more. And what we're going to see, I think, is more and more people searching and in a sense getting themselves stuck in the wrong thing. They're going down avenues that actually as Christians we might say isn't the right way to go, and trying to draw them back.

But I'm trying to meet -- I see where there's hunger, and I see where there's thirst, and I think that they see me and they hear an authentic message that isn't me saying, Look, coming down on judgment, but really trying to draw out from them what is good and point them to what is best.

And one of the kind of key texts for me biblically with that is when St. Paul goes to Athens in the Book of Acts, he's in this place, and he's standing on the steps of the Areopagus -- and it talks about it in Act 17. And in this place, you know -- it's hugely idol worship time. It's a place where all the idols are, where the pagan temples are, and where they're practicing very different kind of cultural things that we would find quite contrary to the Gospel.

And Paul doesn't stand up there and then just bash them on the head. He stands up there and he says, Look, I see that you're practicing religion. You're looking for something. I see you're worshiping this unknown god, and I see you're trying. Let me tell you about this God. Let me tell you about who he is. And he really draws them around kind of this narrative of going, Okay, I can see you're seeking, but let me tell you what the truth is, and then he points them to Christ.

And then within that, as he continues that narrative, he then leads them towards kind of repentance. It is there. But at the beginning, he is definitely not coming against them and, like, banging them on the head with judgment. And I try and do that. I try and say, Oh, I can see you're searching, I can see you're hungry. Let me show you the best way, the better way, that is Christ.

And then I try -- so I try and do it like that. And that's my mission and approach to teaching the Gospel. And I think it -- well, it seems to hit with people and they seem to follow me and like me and -- yeah.

Sometimes a lot of comments that I've seen on YouTube or my Instagram is, "I'm not religious, but you're really speaking to me and I like following you." And I'm trying to draw people to the love of Christ and to find themselves in him first, rather than the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, it would be as if you went online and said, Oh, you're hungry and thirsty? Hmm, mm, mm, you shouldn't be hungry and thirsty. And sometimes we -- I just love that you're acknowledging through empathy that we all have the same needs and we're all seeking the same thing, we just may not understand the path. So thank you. Thank you for that. It's a great example for all of us.

And I want to turn to your book. Okay?

Rev. Chris Lee: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because you bring up a really good point in your book, that being a Christian is not just what we believe, but how we live out our faith through our actions. So explain what you mean by that.

Rev. Chris Lee: I think -- goodness, there's this -- I think it's tough to understand nowadays what it looks like to be a Christian. You know, like, it's -- you look at someone -- you can bring two Christians forward and they might look and sound completely different, and you're like, what does it mean to be a Christian?

And I think what I'm trying to anchor people in is we need to -- we need to not just say that we're a Christian and, you know, have right belief -- now, right belief is important. But action -- as the Book of James will say, action shows what your belief is. And we are called to live out our Christian walk.

You know, a classic analogy that I've heard once was if you were in a court of law and someone said, "You're a Christian," would they be able to -- would you be able to be convicted of that through evidence? Would someone be able to say they're a Christian because -- look at this. A lot of us, sadly, I think, if we were taken to a court of law and we were being charged as being a Christian, would our life -- would they be able to -- we'd be able to be convicted through the evidence of our life?

So I try and, well, just highlight the fact that our action and our output shows where we're abiding. And are we abiding in Christ? Are we living out what it means to be part of the Vine? And our action is important in that, and we need to walk in the way that we talk.

And I suppose my inspiration -- I mean, I talk about St. Francis of Assisi, who I just think is a great historical figure in Christianity, who was someone who kind of fled the world. I talk about the Desert Fathers, who just were so inspiring to me in growing in my faith and the depth of teaching that they have.

And kind of what -- I also think we live in an age where -- you know, in a sense, I'm an influencer. I can put stuff out there. But it's the daily walk that makes a difference to our walk.

Am I waking up with Christ, like, thinking on him, drawing him to mind? Am I seeking to welcome the Holy Spirit when I go to work or go to meet someone? Am I being aware that God is around me in the day-to-day, or am I only paying lip service and in a sense walking into church on a Sunday in like a -- you know, like a -- compartmentalizing my faith and keeping it in one place, or am I allowing it to be invaded into every part of who I am?

And that is the place where we abide with and we live in and we then see the fruit of the Spirit affecting our lives. But if we're not doing that, then I think we're really -- we're not giving ourselves the best place to live in the freedom that Christ brings us to, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and we're doing a disservice to those around us because inauthent- -- what's the word? Inauthentic? When we're inauthentic, people can sniff it out immediately. So it doesn't matter what you say if you're not living it out. That's a good word, Chris.

Let's stay with your book here. Because at the end of each chapter, you give the reader just a time to sit still, breathe deeply, and pause the chaos. So talk to us about why this is so important in order for us to really experience the presence of God.

Rev. Chris Lee: Yeah. I think one of the things that we have to define is the reality in which we're all living at the moment. And the reality is we live in a hyperconnected age, an age where we are constantly -- noise is constantly fed into us. You know, we wake up to an alarm clock, check phones, stick music in our ears. We're in work in front of a computer, radio on. When we're coming home, we're in front of Netflix. We are invaded consistently by noise and by stuff.

And we talk about the pollution of the world, and that is an issue. But I also think noise pollution is a big thing for us as humans, the noise pollution of our souls and what we're engaging with consistently. We're not made to have an opinion on every conflict that's going on around the world. And we're not made to be compared with not just the Johnsons next door, but every person on the internet. And we're not made to -- if we make a mistake once a long time ago, suddenly we're canceled across everything. We are losing sight of what it is to be human.

And I talk about rediscovering silence and stillness and having the ability to be still. And even -- you know, it sounds a bit funny -- I'm not that old -- but even when I was growing up, you know, before the iPhone and Twitter and social media, you know, if I was on a bus, I'd just be on the bus. You know what I mean? I'd be sitting and watching kind of condensation on the window coming down. And in a way, there's a mindfulness to that. You know, I'd be sat there.

Nowadays, you've got the phone out, the AirPods in, and you're just constantly tuned in. And I look at my kids and think, gosh, when are you ever going to be bored? Like, boredom breeds creativity. And I think we're losing a little bit of sight on this. And I think certainly as a Christian, part of our spirituality is silence. I think it was Mother Teresa who said, "God's first language is silence." And we need to rediscover being still with the Lord.

And one of my favorite scriptures is from Psalm 46, I think it's verse 10, and it says, "Be still and know that I am God." And that psalm is all about tumult in the nations, and warfare and crises. And then in the midst of that psalm, God says, "Be still and know that I am God." And there's something really powerful about that, and I really want us to rediscover sitting, being still, acknowledging that God is there, is present, loves us, and just be human.

So I talk about that. And I try in every chapter to have a little Scripture and a little reflection so that the reader can just pause, even in reading the book, and be still and develop and cultivate a rhythm of silence and stillness in their life, because I do think it's something that we're lacking.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we are, sadly, ill-equipped to approach silence without anxiety. Because we get nervous about boredom or we -- maybe we're productivity junkies and we think there's something we should be doing. You know, I grew up similarly -- and I happen to be blind also, so there is this aspect where I have to just kind of sit sometimes with my thoughts and ponder and contemplate and listen, instead of immediately running to something to displace that discomfort of boredom.

But you know what you've done, Chris, which I am super appreciative of -- and by the way, this will be our last question. And I want you to know how much I'm appreciative of your ministry, your book. And my 4:13ers, oh, my goodness, I can hear in Chris' voice that we will hear his voice in the pages. So what a gift to learn to be the beloved.

So in these 60-Second Sermons you've done on social media, you give kind of this spiritual speed bump, like a spiritual break from the clutter and the chaos. Okay?

Rev. Chris Lee: I like that. That's so funny.

Jennifer Rothschild: And now you've written this book that really -- it's genuinely going to give us almost a weapon to fight back, to put down the phone, and just to sit, just to sit before the Lord and really know they are his beloved. So I guess my last question is, how do we know, Chris? How do we really know that we are God's beloved?

Rev. Chris Lee: That's a good question. Honestly, I think it's the question of life really.

And you know what really strikes me about that is in the resurrection, in the resurrection passage -- I think it's recorded in John -- Mary, young Mary, comes to see -- comes to Jesus' tomb. And she stood outside and she's weeping because the tomb is empty and she doesn't know what's going on. She doesn't know that Jesus is raised yet. But she knows he's not there, and she's struggling and she's crying. And then the gardener comes, and she's like, "Where have you laid" -- where have you -- he says the gardener -- and we know that's Christ -- the gardener says to her, you know, "Why are you crying?" And then she says, "Oh," you know, "where have you taken him? Please let me know."

And then what I find just the most profound thing is that Jesus then says one thing to her. And he just says, "Mary." He says her name. And in that moment, him saying her name, she suddenly knows that's Jesus. That's my Lord. It's going to be okay. And she just wraps herself around him.

And I think that it is in silence, it is in that stillness, it's in prayerfulness that we can hear God whisper our name to us. And that is when we know that we're seen, we know that we're loved, and we know that it will be okay. So I'm trying to get people to hear, through the noise, God say their name to them. And I think that you can do that and that is possible. And I think our Father loves to do that to us. But he needs us to stop and look and be with him. And when we do that, we'll hear our name in his mouth, and that will help us to feel known, loved, and seen.

Jennifer Rothschild: That was beautiful. It is in silence that we can hear God whisper our names to us, and we'll know we are seen, we'll know we are known, and we'll know that we are loved.

KC Wright: Yes. The message was beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wasn't it?

KC Wright: But, man, can we just talk about the elephant in the room? His accent.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: I mean, he could have shared his grocery list and I would have rededicated my life. I'm serious.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. I know.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. You need Chris' book. When I read his book, I'm going to hear his voice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? With his accent.

KC Wright: And you can keep hearing God's voice in your heart from his book. We're giving one away. Go to Jennifer's Instagram right now, @jennrothschild. And you can go to the Show Notes to read a transcript of this full conversation. And by the way, you want to do that because there were so many truth bombs he dropped in this conversation.

Also we'll have links for you to win the book, buy the book, and follow him on all the socials. I'm going to do that right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there you go. No. You're going to wait till we're done and then you're going to do that.

KC Wright: Okay. Okay, I promise.

Jennifer Rothschild: Also, by the way, he and his wife, Jenny, wrote a book for children called "You Are Beloved," and so we'll also have a link to that on the Show Notes. So get the grownup book for you and the kids book for your husband. I mean -- kidding, kidding -- for your kids and your grandkids.

All right. Well, I hope you also enjoyed, as I did, that little bit of an education we got on the Church of England. But even more, the inspiration of pausing and knowing that you are God's beloved. So pause, breathe deep, listen. Believe you are loved because you can, because all things are possible for you through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: I know I was not the guest today --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, you weren't.

KC Wright: -- but I do believe that love is the single most important thing that we need to have ourselves, you know, built on, that foundation of God's love for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Nothing else makes sense if we don't have it.

KC Wright: And that one Scripture -- well, I mean, all the Scriptures. But that one Scripture that blows my mind about God's love out of Psalms that says, "His thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore." You think about that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: He delights in every detail of your life. So whatever matters to you right now matters to him. He loves you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That was beautiful. Even with an American accent.