Jennifer Rothschild Show: Courage for Ordinary People with Max Lucado

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Max Lucado: Courage is not the absence of fear, but it's more the choice of facing our fears with faith. Nobody gets through life with no fear. I mean, it's just— in fact, fear serves a healthy purpose, right?

It keeps me from picking up a rattlesnake or somebody from crossing a highway. There is a healthy fear. When we talk about courage, it's a persistent life of fear that engages very little faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey everybody, welcome. You are at the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow, and that is why you're here.

Now listen, you may have been part of the 413podcast. Well, you are still in the right place. New name, new sound, new look. Oh, but it is the same great content.

And today, I'm just telling you what a great way to start because we have bestselling author Matt Max Lucado, and he is going to offer a fresh look at the prophet Elijah. Elijah's gonna help you know how to have unswerving belief and unbreakable courage in uncertain times.

So get ready for a great day. Here we go.

Well, you are in the right place, my friend. This was the 413podcast.com, and now we have refreshed it, retitled it. It is the Jennifer Rothschild Show. It is where thoughtful people come to grow.

And did you know that is why you're here? Now, why, you may wonder, did we do a refresh on the podcast? Well, for the same reason that I did a refresh on my house this year. I love my house. I've lived in it for a long time. But you know what? Sometimes you just need an update so that you can enjoy where you live even more.

So I did some new floors, new paint, new appliances, and it's just made it so much more enjoyable to live in. Well, that's what we've done with the podcast.

We refreshed it. We love it. It's still the best place you could be, yet at the same time, we needed to update.

So you love the music, but you're going to experience a new look, a new feel, and the same great content. Now, KC, he's still going to be here from time to time, but today is a great example because, oh my friend, we have Max Lucado. Now, you love Max Lucado just like I do, and I will tell you this: the man has written so many books.

In fact, he has— okay, get ready— over 150 million in print. Yeah. And today we're talking about his latest, which is called Unbreakable Courage.

I need it, you need it, so settle in for this fantastic conversation with America's pastor. Max Lucado.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Max, it's always a delight to have you back. America's pastor, we love you around here. And it's really special for me, given that this is the first episode of the Jennifer Rothschild Show, that you get to be the guest because you mean so much to me. So thank you for doing this, and we're going to talk about your book Unbreakable Courage.

That means we are talking about courage, and we're going to hit a little bit of Elijah. But before we go to do all that, I think we need to know what courage actually is. We need a definition, Max, because sometimes we think if we're a little nervous, if we feel anxious or fearful, then we don't have courage.

So start with the definition. What is courage?

Max Lucado: Okay, absolutely. By the way, congratulations. I love the new angle on the program. I think it's a great decision. And it's so good to hear your voice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right back at you.

Max Lucado: Let's say, let's try this approach.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Max Lucado: So courage is not the absence of fear, but it's more the choice of facing our fears with faith. Nobody gets through life with no fear. I mean, it just, in fact, fear serves a healthy purpose, right?

It keeps me from picking up a rattlesnake or somebody from crossing a highway. There is a healthy fear. When we talk about courage, it's a persistent life of fear that engages very little faith.

When we talk about faith, we're talking about the existence of a living and loving God who's overseeing the universe. So courage is taking my fears to him before I take my fears out on someone else or take them out on myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh boy, that contrast is poignant because we do— I don't think we realize we're doing it. We take our fears out on someone else or we take them out on ourselves. So courage is assigning our fears to the right source, to the right place, the one who can handle it.

Okay, that's beautiful. And I think we see that picture in Elijah, which is what Unbreakable Courage centers around. Okay, so when you— someone listening may not know exactly who Elijah is, and by the way, that's with the J, my people. Because sometimes we don't know which one we're talking about. There's Elijah and there's Elijah. We're talking about the J, Elijah.

Okay, give us a character sketch. Who is the man? And just give us an idea of his story.

Max Lucado: Yeah, it's a great story. He came along in 9th century BC, which was not a good time for Israel. Their faith was weak as a nation.

They were a train about to roll off the tracks. They had gone through one evil king after another, those kings whose stories are summarized in Scripture with lines like, and he did more evil in the sight of the Lord than anyone else, and he did more evil in the sight of the Lord. You know, it's just one generation after another of evil kings, which is interesting because we're only 100 years removed from the construction of the temple in Solomon's day.

So there was a kind of a golden age of faith. It just didn't last. And so we're talking about a society that has distanced itself not only from God but attached itself to two false gods, namely Baal and Asherah.

And whether somebody remembers their names is less important than the fact that their worship of these two involved temple prostitution, and even sacrifice of children. So it's just tragic that Israel would go this far. Well, this is the world into which Elijah storms, and I use that verb on purpose.

He stormed into the world. He comes out of nowhere. We don't know anything about his upbringing.

We don't know anything about his parents. We don't know anything about his faith development. But what we do know is that when he first appears, he goes right into the throne room of, uh, of Ahab and Jezebel, the most vile of the vile, and he says, 'The, the God of Israel lives!' And that's how he enters.

So he's a whirlwind on the prairie, and he's a picture of how to live with unbreakable courage in a day when no one else has faith but you do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, how relevant is that, sadly, Max, for where we are today? And you know, I've never thought about it. You're right, he didn't come quietly. He stormed in. Talk about courage.

And so I'm wondering, since we don't know a lot about his underpinning of his life, we got to know a little bit of what must have been going on in his heart to give him that kind of courage. So in your book, I know you talk about Elijah-level prayers. Okay, so what is that?

And as you trace his story, let us know what those prayer— what Elijah-level prayer is like.

Max Lucado: Yeah, well, we can thank the Epistle of James for attaching or mentioning the prayer life of Elijah as something that's an example for all of us. James is quick to point out he was just a man like the rest of us, but when he prayed for the heavens to shut up and not rain, they, they were quiet. When he prayed for rain, rain returned.

And James uses him as an example of somebody who prays with passion. Whose Prayers Literally Changed the World. I love the discussion, Jennifer, of prayer, and it's still a mystery to me.

It still is. I mean, quite honestly, why does God care what I think? But he does.

And why would my prayers impact his actions? But they do. And to what degree do my prayers influence God?

I love discussing it. I'm just fascinated that he would even care what we think. Yeah, uh, he cared what Elijah thought, and when Elijah prayed, God responded.

There was a little boy raised from the dead because of the prayers of Elijah. There was fire from heaven that fell because of the prayers of Elijah. His story just is a reminder that as God's people, we have this high and holy privilege of interceding on behalf of the world.

Whether we understand prayer or not is second to the fact that we are called to pray. And prayer is an act of faith. Prayer is an act of obedience.

And I really believe prayer is our highest privilege. So yeah, I talk quite a bit in the book about Elijah-level prayers, being careful never to place the power of prayer in the way we pray or the person who prays. But the power of prayer is in God who hears our prayer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Max Lucado: But the prayer prayed in earnest faith, James said, is— does great things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, well, and that obviously Elijah was proof text of that. You know, it's interesting because you had just described how Elijah stormed into the throne room of Ahab and said, 'The Lord God lives.' Well, in some ways that's kind of what he did with the Lord God of the universe. He stormed into the throne room and he pleaded "make it rain, make it stop raining, raise this child." That takes courage too, Max, to trust that God is hearing and responding.

And you're right, it is a mystery that sometimes we shy away from. But yeah, to follow the example of Elijah, you know, one of the things about his life too, Elijah's life, that has always ministered to me— I've had over the years what I call Elijah episodes, okay? And you know what this is?

It's when you just have this, uh, this deep despair after you've exerted a lot of spiritual effort or even had spiritual victory Okay, so somebody might not know what I'm talking about. So give us that little picture of Elijah's life and experience. And then what?

What happened? What was the result of it?

Max Lucado: Yeah, we're going right to the heart of Elijah's story here, because to understand his downtime, you have to understand his high time. And that took place on Mount Carmel. He invited— he double-dog dared Ahab and Jezebel to have a showdown between their god and the one true God.

And that story is worth retelling 100 times over. Yeah. 850 false prophets come.

Elijah's by himself. They bring a bull. Elijah brings a bull.

They call on their false prophets to bring fire from heaven. They dance and they prance, and Elijah makes fun of them. He sits over there under a tree, arms crossed, saying, 'Is your god asleep?

Is he gone? Is he taking a nap?' He just makes fun of them. They finally give up.

They've done all their dancing and prancing and chanting, and they give up. They're exhausted. And then Elijah steps up.

He pours more water— pours more water onto the altar. And then, even before he can ask it, fire falls from heaven and consumes everything. It's, it's a stunning, powerful moment that I think probably is still being discussed by the angels today in heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Max Lucado: But as you point out, he goes from that high moment to the lowest moment of his life. He finds out that Jezebel is out to get him. And yet we would think he would respond in courage after what he just experienced.

But he's so exhausted that he runs. He goes on the run. He goes MIA.

And leaves his servant at one point, just keeps running, finally falls under a juniper tree and says, just take me, God, I'm ready to die. And he goes from one point to the other, and it's, it's a powerful picture of how depleted we can become and how fragile faith can be. It's also a picture of how God cares for us when we're depressed.

I think he was depressed. I think, I think, uh, statistically, 1 out of 3 Americans battle depression. And so this story is so practical.

I hope people will revisit it. It reminds us that God sent an angel to feed him, to give him rest. Sometimes that's what we need, it's just a good day off.

He sent word to Elijah not to stay in the cave. Sometimes that's what we need, is to get out from you know, our own little mind, and to get back in circulation.

Max Lucado: But most of all, he gave Elijah a word. He spoke to him through a still small voice. And most of all, that's what we need.

We need to know that even when we're as down as we could possibly be, that God is there with us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Such a good word. And somebody needed to hear that, because that's courage also— the courage just to listen to the word and trust and obey and be mindful that God is there and he's ministering. And wow, what a beautiful picture.

I'm grateful for that story because you're right. I mean, when you said 1 out of 3 people experience depression, that means a third of the people listening today know exactly how Elijah felt, and that means they can also know exactly how God can minister. And I'm so thankful for that.

And you know, Max, you talk about in your book something I want to explore a little more because I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about yet on this one because I haven't been able to read this part of the book. You talk about living with an expectation of divine disruption. Talk to us about what you mean by divine disruption and living with that expectation.

Max Lucado: Well, when you look at the life— thank you again for that question— that's what Elijah experienced. He would go from really major miracle to major miracle. His life is marked by being cared for by God, As ravens brought him food, as a widow in a village cared for him.

When the widow's son died, he prayed for the son and the son came to life. When Elijah prayed against the rain, the rain stopped. When Elijah prayed for the rain, the rain returned.

Now, and I'm not even mentioning his lack of death, you know, he was raptured into heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's true.

Max Lucado: But then in between these divine disruptions, there was just faithful service. Even though his life has many miracles, as just about anyone in scripture whose name is not Jesus, there were long periods of just day in and day out, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, studying, praying, walking, serving. And then there are these divine disruptions that shake everything up.

And I bring all that out, uh, Jennifer, to give people hope. That God does interrupt. He does come.

He does surprise. He does intervene. And just because it's been a long time since you sensed his, uh, fire from heaven, don't think for a second that he's not going to come.

Uh, Elijah just models day in and day out steady service, knowing that at any point something's going to happen. And Joseph is going to leave the prison and become prime minister. Or Saul's going to get knocked off his horse and become Paul.

Our God is a God who does that. He just interrupts, and we don't control it. We can't calculate for it, but we can be excited about it.

No situation is ever so dark that God cannot interrupt it and bring hope.

Jennifer Rothschild: And all the people said amen. Okay, I love it. And we need to live with that expectation.

All right, so then Here's another, something you deal with in the book that I want us to address because I think we get confused by it and we, and we don't understand it. 'Cause you had already mentioned prayer, right? And the mystery of it and why God even involves us in that.

But you talk about in the book, resting in prayer and wrestling in prayer. So on the surface, we think we know what the difference is, but tell us what the difference is and how do we know which one to apply when?

Max Lucado: Yeah, yeah, I love talking about prayer. Again, it's such a mystery to me and it's such a privilege. So yes, there are times we rest in prayer.

We're quiet, we're still. We come to God like a child comes to an Abba. It's such a comforting thing just to be quiet.

For me, that usually comes early in the morning. I'm kind of an early riser, and I have 2 or 3 places in the house depending on how cold it is or hot it is outside. I may sit indoors or outdoors, but the place doesn't matter.

But just those few moments in which I say, "Good morning, Father. Good morning. Thank you. You've got another day for me." I love starting my day there. Now, sometimes I stumble, or I mean, I don't, but my good days begin like that. And that's resting in prayer.

Wrestling in prayer is what we did last, a few nights back. When one of my dear friends who's been diagnosed with a brain tumor— we called together— I, I didn't, one of his friends assembled about 100 people and we met in a small chapel and we witnessed this man's beautiful faith. He said to all of us, he said, "I'm not afraid of cancer. I'm not afraid of dying." And it was just his powerful testimony. But then we all prayed, we cried out to the Lord, we begged God, and we're continuing to beg God. I know God has heard us.

Now, will he do what we've asked him to do? That's up to him. That's up to him.

But that's wrestling in prayer. Elijah did that. You know, when that little boy died in the village of Zarephath, he prayed not once, not twice, but three times.

When he asked for God to send rain again, he prayed not once but seven times. He stayed in a posture of prayer. And so I think there are times which, as parents, as pastors, as friends, as neighbors, we just wrestle with God.

We beg the Lord. We don't— we're not disrespectful, far from it, right? We're just being obedient. We can come before the throne of grace boldly because we have a high priest who understands.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And it is— that's where we find the help we need. Beautiful. And God be with your friend. With the friend who has cancer, in Jesus' name.

Max Lucado: Amen. And God be with all your listeners. Even as we're talking, I'm sensing that there's— Lord, let your hand touch that precious person who feels like there's no solutions, no healing, no outcome except a dark one.

Please bring hope in life. I join with them and seek to be obedient. And you know what else, Jennifer?

The Holy Spirit intercedes with words that are greater than— with groans that are greater than anything we could conjure up. So don't, don't ever think it's up to you to pray the perfect prayer, but it is up to us to bring passion in our prayers and faith in our prayers. And that, that's the calling that some people have on their lives.

That's their assignment. And God bless them, and we need them.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a worthy assignment. And yes, amen to those who are obedient to that calling. All right, I got two more questions for you, Max.

One of them, you mentioned Ahab. Ahab and Jezebel were messing with Elijah. Okay, some people don't know enough about Ahab, but we know all we really need to know: he was not a good guy and he was an enemy, in essence, of Elijah.

But in your book, you talk about how Ahab is not our enemy. So how— what do you mean by that, and how can we apply that concept.

Max Lucado: Yeah, our battle is not against flesh and blood, right? It's against the principalities and powers of this present darkness. There is a devil.

There is, there is one who aspired to have the throne of God, and he was cast down, and his time is short, and he knows it. And with all my heart, I do not think he can take Max's salvation, but I do believe he can take Max's peace. He can take my effectiveness.

He could take my testimony. He can take my joy, and he's trying to today. He take— he could— he can lead me to places if I'm not careful.

And so yeah, Ahab was the tool that the devil used, but let's remember, that's why prayer and worship and, and God's word is so important, because we do not fight with weapons that the world uses. Uh, we fight with weapons that, that are spiritual in nature. Uh, there are Jahabs, there are very evil people in the world who mean nothing but harm for us and nothing but achievement for themselves.

May God have mercy upon them. But our ultimate enemy is never making a movie or running for election or, or, or the guy down the street. Our ultimate enemy is the devil himself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Right, that is where our real struggle is. That's where we can wrestle in prayer too.

Max Lucado: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: And just ask the Lord for protection to overcome the evil one through the word of our testimony and the blood of the Lamb. And so that's where we're going to end, Max. So this, uh, podcast, we say it's where thoughtful people come to grow.

So as the last question, could you give us an indication, just an idea, what is it that helps you grow that you would recommend to our listener that would help them grow?

Max Lucado: Yeah, my answer is still in the theme of prayer. In the last year or two, I have been introduced to the whole idea of praying specific prayers like a surgical strike. I have identified there are two areas in my life, and I don't want to go public with what they are, but they're just personal areas in which I continue to struggle.

50 years as a Christian now, and And, and I still have these two dogged, uh, weaknesses, weaknesses. And, uh, and somebody suggested, well, every day identify them and take them like they themselves are an enemy, you know, march them into the presence of the Lord and point them out. And, and you know what, since I started doing that, Jennifer, I've really felt victory in those two areas.

It— rather than just pray, Lord, help me as I face temptation, or help me as I battle with this issue. I say, Lord, today I know that I will be tempted to have this thought or take that action. Please, let's go together, God.

Come, come alongside me. And I get very specific, as specific as possible. So I would encourage a person, is there some besetting sin, this habit that you just can't shake?

Then go surgical with it. Get specific. Talk to God about it. Identify it. March it into his presence. And don't just pray nebulous prayers over it. Pray specific prayers about it.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my friends, aren't you glad you are here today? Me too. I'm telling you that that was so good.

I was so encouraged. And you know what I was really encouraged about? To hear that Max Lucado, he still struggles.

And listen, my friend, admitting struggle is courageous. It's so courageous because we all struggle. So remember Max's definition of courage.

It's not the absence of fear. It is taking your fear to God instead of taking your fear out on others or taking it out on yourself. So let's expect those divine disruptions today.

God's with you, my friend, and he's gonna grow you. So if you need rest, just remember, he'll minister to you. All right, so check out Max's book.

It's called Unbreakable Courage, and it'll be at the show notes. And of course, I will always have for you a full transcript. And one more thing, can I tell you one more thing?

If you want to continue to grow, go surgical. That's what he said. You go surgical. Be very specific in prayer. March right into that throne room of grace and be specific. Ooh, I love that.

All right, my friends, I'm so glad you came. Thanks for hanging out with me on this first episode of the Jennifer Rothschild Show. You're a thoughtful person, so keep growing, my friend.

I'll see you next week.