4:13 Podcast: Can I Flourish and Live Fruitful? With Christine Caine [Episode 394]

Christine Caine: We are truly rooted and grounded in Christ, and all the promises of God are in Christ Jesus "yes" and "amen." And Jesus is still the same yesterday, today, and forever, no matter what has happened to us or around us. Because the promises of God are "yes" and "amen" in Christ, if we're rooted in him, we can still flourish.

And we may have lost --and everyone has lost something in this last decade, something that means a lot to them. But the fact is, if we're rooted in Christ and the promises of God are in Christ Jesus "yes" and "amen," and he's still the same, even though the world has changed, I want Christians to believe we can flourish again, because the promise is in him, the hope is in him, the peace is in him, the joy is in him. It's all in him, and we haven't lost him, no matter what has happened in the world around us.

Jennifer Rothschild: God has created you and called you to flourish even in the most difficult times. Did you know that you were made for more than just surviving?

Well, on today's 4:13, speaker and best-selling author Christine Caine, is going to show you that it is possible to thrive in every single season of life, including the hardest ones, by grounding yourself in God's truth and activating the peace, resilience, and purpose that he gives you. She's going to use the olive tree to show you how you can develop steep spiritual roots and bear fruit that is going to last. So get ready to dig in. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. And it is my goal just to help you be and do more than you feel capable as you are living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. I hope you have had a good week. I will tell you, around here we've had a good week because it's getting close to spring break. And, in fact, that leads me to this...

Last week KC had a head cold. I told you that. That's why he couldn't show up. Well, this week it's spring break, so he's not here again. But I promise you, my friends, we are getting close to being back in normal territory around here with two friends and one topic and zero stress. But right now it's still just me in the studio because he already had plans, and so I just decided we were just going to do this together, you, me, and Christine.

But I got to tell you, because it is spring break around here where we live -- and I don't know what it is around where you live -- but because it's spring break around here, I've had the grandkids over. And I will tell you the funniest thing that just happened.

So one of the little guys -- we have five now. We have five. Okay? Eight, six, four, two, and a newborn. Is that five? Eight, six -- anyway, whatever. One of them, the four-year-old, John Robert, sometimes he just wants to get out and have time alone with Gigi. And so his dad called and said, "Hey, Mom, do you mind if John Robert comes over? He wants to come over to your house." I'm like, "Oh, that's so awesome." I felt so honored, you know.

So he comes over and I'm letting him watch PAW Patrol and I'm making him popcorn. I'm doing all the things. And so I sit by him on the couch and I say, "John Robert, I am so happy you wanted to come over to Gigi's house." And he did not miss a beat. He said, "Well, Grandmommy was not home," meaning his other grandmother. So I was second choice.

But it's okay to be second choice because we had a top rate time and it was still very fun. And I got a little bit of that snuggle time in before I hit the road, because that's what I'm doing this weekend.

I told you last week about the Hope of Heaven Tour. Well, I'm out on the road, and we are heading toward Georgia and Alabama and South Carolina. I'll have a link, of course, so that you can see where we are on the Hope of Heaven Tour, or you can just go straight to hopeofheaventour.com. But if you're out and about this weekend in the southeast, come see us, me and Kelly Minter. I would love it.

All right, my people, we are going to go to Australia, at least through Christine Caine's beautiful accent, because she and I got to talk about her latest book. And I can't wait for you to hear it because, oh, my goodness, it was so inspiring. So let me introduce Christine.

She is a speaker and an activist and a best-selling author who inspires people, including me, to discover their God-given purpose and live transformed for Jesus. She and her husband, Nick, they have two daughters, Catherine and Sophia. And she is the host of the Equip & Empower Podcast, and she and I are about to talk about her latest book, "The Faith to Flourish."

So lean back, settle in, and let's go.

All right, Christine, before we even hit your book, I've got to tell you something. You don't realize that you have great influence over my husband's life. Did you know this?

Christine Caine: Oh, I have? Have I met him?

Jennifer Rothschild: You've never met him. But let me tell you why that is. Okay. You know how on your GPS on your phone, you can choose any voice you want? Well, he chose this Australian woman. And so I started nicknaming her Christine Caine. I'm like, "Honey" -- he says, "Do you remember what the address is?" I said, "No. Just ask Christine." So that's the thing I'm always saying. And then if he doesn't listen to me, but he's listening to his GPS, I'm like, "You listen to Christine Caine more than you listen to me." So there you go.

Christine Caine: Can I tell that story? That is the best story I've heard. My husband would be like -- he got a GPS like that, and it had a -- we were living in Australia, so it had an Aussie woman's voice, and I called her Matilda. And I used to say the same thing. I'd go, "Why do you listen to Matilda, but you don't listen to me?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly, Christine. That's what I'm saying. So I give him a hard time all the time. I said, "If Christine Caine tells you to do it, you'll do it." So, yes, you are affectionately -- I named our GPS after you.

Christine Caine: It's made my day.

Jennifer Rothschild: So don't steer us wrong, sister, don't steer us wrong.

Christine Caine: No, I won't.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's get to your book. So your latest book, "The Faith to Flourish," you use the olive tree. Okay, so I'm so excited we get to talk about this, because you're using the olive tree as a metaphor. So I want to know why you chose the olive tree, and what does it represent?

Christine Caine: For sure. Well, Jennifer, I have to ask you, do you like olives?

Jennifer Rothschild: I love olives. And I love olive oil. Yes.

Christine Caine: See, you're my kind of chick. Okay, this is awesome.

Well, I don't know if you know, but I am Greek and I come from a Greek background. My parents were Greek immigrants in Australia.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Christine Caine: And so -- I don't know -- there was the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding," you know that was like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Christine Caine: Yes. Okay, so --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's you?

Christine Caine: That is my big fat Greek life. 100% that was it. And so you probably were raised drinking milk out of your bottle. I had olive oil in my bottle as a baby. You know, like, my mother was -- olive oil was the answer to life, the universe, and everything. So we just always had olives.

Now, you know, my husband and I oversee a global anti-human trafficking organization that started in Greece, and so we have an office in Athens. And then a few years ago, you know, I was there with our team, and we had gone up to the Parthenon. And there in the Parthenon there's a little plaque, it says, "The Sacred Olive Tree."

And how the whole book came around was I had been reading Psalm 52. And in Psalm 52, David, after he had been being chased by Saul and, you know, he was in a time of -- one of the many times of just great peril and darkness and betrayal and slander and just people were trying to kill him. I mean, the whole thing. So his external circumstances were a mess. But right in the middle of that, in Psalm 52, he says, "But I am like a green olive tree flourishing in the house of God." And it just really had struck me. I had red and green olive trees, so I was thinking, like, of all the trees, that's amazing.

Now, so you go -- as the Lord would have it, I'm reading that psalm. I'm now at the top of the Parthenon and there is this green olive tree in the midst of all of this barren -- it was dry, it was arid, and yet there is this thriving green olive tree that has grown, flourish, produces fruit in the most barren conditions.

And it was really in that moment, you know, that verse from that psalm, that green olive tree and all my Greek background, and the Mediterranean background of going, of all the trees in the Bible -- I mean, the Bible mentions obviously a lot of trees, but there's over 200 mentions in Scripture of the olive tree, olive oil, olive branches. So, of course, the nerd in me, it sent me down a trail --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Christine Caine: -- of going, I want to look up these 200 plus verses that have anything to do with olive oil, olive branch, olive leaf, olive tree. And it struck me. It was like the lights went on of just how much the imagery of the olive tree is threaded from Genesis through to Revelation, how important it is in our faith, and why of all the trees -- and I was really -- Jennifer, to be honest, the world is -- maybe where you are it's normal, but the world has lost its ever-loving mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Christine Caine: I travel everywhere and I'm like, y'all, this place is...

And, you know, there's no real sign that anything's going to get better certainly in the immediate future, or perhaps even in our lifetime, should the Lord tarry. So what is it, then, if an olive tree can flourish in barren and difficult conditions, and really flourish, produce -- it's the most fruitful of all the fruit bearing trees -- and produce oil. And how are we, as believers in the midst of a very, very chaotic and divisive and broken and dark world, supposed to flourish? And are we?

Anyway, I hope -- I think in the day in which we're living, where so many believers are languishing -- really, I called it "The Faith to Flourish" because I truly believe in this hour we need faith to start flourishing again in the way God created us flourish.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Because you're right, we do need the faith to flourish. The world needs us --

Christine Caine: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to have the faith to flourish. Because just as the olive tree is life-giving and nourishing to those who sit under its shade or partake of its fruit, that is how we can be, too, to this world.

Christine Caine: Well, totally. And our world desperately needs it. And so if we're sort of languishing and not flourishing, it has huge implications, not just for our own life, but everyone within our sphere of influence, you know, our families, our neighborhoods, our workplaces. And so I think this is an hour where we go, okay, what does it really mean to flourish and what -- you know, I sort of designed it like here are our 14 lessons from the olive tree --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love it.

Christine Caine: -- she's going to teach us, everything from the root system through to bearing fruit in the midst of it all.

And I just really loved -- I went to eight different countries, Jennifer. I visited olive farms in eight different nations, Spain and Italy and Morocco and Slovenia and Peru and, you know, here in America, and I spoke to the owners of the olive tree farms. And I learned more than anybody would ever want to know about -- I ate more olive tapenade and I tried more olive oil than anybody will in a lifetime. But, wow, it taught me so much as a believer.

And then to see in Scripture -- I mean, when you see so much of the imagery from -- you know, when the flood -- when the dove brought the olive leaf back from the flood that signified there was life on the earth and that God had not destroyed all of the earth, and the fact that you've got an olive leaf.

And then what does an olive branch mean? And in our world of chaos and division, what is it to be peacemakers like Jesus tells us to be? And why is the olive branch so symbolic of peacemaking around the world? And the wood of the olive tree that is used all the way through the tabernacle, why did God choose that? And what is it that we make of wood today? And how are we supposed to be sturdy and strong and enduring?

You know, it takes about ten years for an olive tree to bear fruit. We all, in our very instant generation, you know, social media world where we sort of want to, you know, the next day kind of be producing fruit, what does it mean to endure in a very instant generation world? And I think -- like, unpacking those eternal truths, I think is so important for the day in which we live.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, the inner nerd in me is jumping up and down because I want to know a couple of things here. So first of all, I didn't know it took about ten years for an olive tree to bear fruit. That right there preaches.

But then the other thing that I've got to understand is why? Why is it? Now, I know you're not necessarily, you know, a horticulturist, but what did you glean? Why is it that an olive tree can flourish, not just survive but flourish, even when things are very arid and barren?

Christine Caine: Because of the root system. Now, the thing is it not only flourishes, it is the most profuse fruit bearing tree of all the fruit bearing trees. Like, it produces more fruit than any other tree, which is, like, stunning, given that if you've ever sort of been into the Mediterranean or -- some of those places are so barren, and olive trees are growing up in just kind of really odd places and in hilltops, and you just kind of go, How did you get there?

But it is the interconnected root system. The olive trees, it's got a dual -- now, again, I'm not going to get too technical. But for the nerds, it's all in there and it's all explained.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, good.

Christine Caine: But the way those roots go deep and then interconnect, and the fact that one olive tree really needs the other olive tree, but the strength that that brings. But it takes time for those roots to go down deep, for it to grow up out of the ground. But it's the depth of the roots that cause it to flourish.

Which, of course, you know, for anyone that's kind of thinking of John 15 and the roots going deep and are staying, you know, connected to Jesus, again, this is a different metaphor. But it does show you the importance of the strong roots that cause it to be able to grow despite the external conditions. I mean, and even after a fire -- I mean, I've got a couple of examples in there where entire olive groves were wiped out by the worst fires in Italy and yet grew back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Christine Caine: It really is stunning. Like, some of these places where I went and really researched and thought, I can't believe, nothing else grew back but the olive trees. And I thought in light of what we have experienced -- and particularly the last 10 years, I think, have been challenging for believers -- I'm like, you know, this is a time you can grow back. A lot of people think they're finished, they're done, there's no hope, but we are truly rooted and grounded in Christ.

And all the promises of God are in Christ Jesus "yes" and "amen." And Jesus is still the same yesterday, today, and forever, no matter what has happened to us or around us, because the promises of God are "yes" and "amen" in Christ. If we're rooted in him, we can still flourish.

And we may have lost -- and everyone has lost something in this last decade, something that means a lot to them. But the fact is, if we're rooted in Christ and the promises of God are in Christ Jesus "yes" and "amen," and he's still the same, even though the world has changed, I want Christians to believe we can flourish again. Because the promise is in him, the hope is in him, the peace is in him, the joy is in him. It's all in him. And we haven't lost him, no matter what has happened in the world around us.

Jennifer Rothschild: You are so right. Okay, I love that imagery that we are rooted and grounded in him.

But what I did not understand is that the olive tree's strength is gained from how their roots intertwine also --

Christine Caine: Very much so, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- which says why we need each other. Which is why we continue to love each other well and be for each other and with each other. So wow.

Okay. So we're going to have a link to the book, 4:13ers, after this conversation, so stick with us because I know you're ready to jump on Amazon. Just hold out, Sparky. Wait a minute. Okay? Because we need to talk about some more of this. I'm loving this so much.

Pruning. Okay? I am not a big gardener. But my understanding is for things to grow, you have to prune them. So I'd like for you to talk to us a little bit about pruning.

Christine Caine: Well, for sure. And I think -- I saw this especially in Peru. And the way that -- and here is the bottom line. And, of course, you know, Jesus himself said every branch that doesn't bear fruit, of course, is going to be cut off. But he also said and every branch that does. And I think Christians have forgotten somewhere along the line that basically you're pruned if you do and you're pruned if you don't.

And so this is like -- and sometimes we think that pruning is, you know, maybe a sign of judgment, I've done something wrong. But it's actually not. It is -- pruning, it is for the sake of bearing more fruit.

I think even in -- you know, Jennifer, the last couple of years -- we have spent 20 years building a global anti-trafficking organization, so we have offices all around the world. And the pruning, the work that we do that really isn't bearing fruit, that's not difficult. Like, cutting off the branches that -- you know, even in our own lives, you know, you kind of go, okay, that one's got to go, that's not bearing fruit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's not working.

Christine Caine: What is really hard is allowing the Lord to chop off the stuff that you love and that is bearing fruit. And I think the longer we grow with the Lord, the more resistant we are to allowing the Lord to cut off things that we actually love that are not sinful, they're not bad and -- you know, we can justify it. We go, "Look, it's bearing fruit." But the Lord's saying, if you would let me prune this area, you would be stunned at how much more fruit you will produce.

And I see the loving -- the guys that were running the olive farms that I visited, you know, they're so intimate with their trees, and they sort of, like, go -- they're talking to them, you know, like, this is going to be painful. And I feel like -- there was one guy in particular, the guy in Peru, and I'm like, oh, my word, I think this is what the Lord must feel like when he goes, okay, I know you think this is going to hurt, and it is, and I know you're going to miss this fruit, but if you would just let me do this, the other side of this, you will be stunned at how much more fruit is going to be born.

And I think -- I'm 60 this year, Jennifer, and so I've been walking with the Lord for nearly 40 years. And it is amazing that if you don't really stay intimately connected with the Lord, knowing that he loves you and that even a little bit of short-term pain is going to yield long-term gain and long-term fruit, you can become resistant and sort of say to the Lord, you know, you can deal with this area, but not this area.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Christine Caine: I remember when I was first saved -- so go back four decades -- I was such a mess. I'm like, "Lord, cut it all off." You know, every day you kind of wake up, you're in the Word, whatever you're reading, you're like, oh, I've got to get rid of this and get rid of this. And if we're not careful, you can become comfortable with some things that the Lord wants to come in and say.

You can continue to bear fruit even in old age. Of course, those verses really mean a lot more to me now that I'm turning 60, and so it's kind of like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Christine Caine: You know, but I can continue to bear fruit even in old age, but there's a correlation between bearing fruit and a willingness to be pruned.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, and in your book you write that pruning is not punitive --

Christine Caine: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but restorative.

Christine Caine: Very much.

Jennifer Rothschild: So deepen that thought. How is it restorative? I understand that it can help you bear fruit in different areas. But how is it restorative?

Christine Caine: Well, I think what it does is it keeps us in it. The restorative -- I think what I was writing then very much is that -- John says it's to our Father's great glory that we bear much fruit. I think we forget that sometimes. Not just bear a bit of fruit, but much fruit.

So where I say restorative is -- we are on the earth to bring glory to God. So what is at stake here is glory. So the more glory I'm bringing to him, well, the more I'm being conformed and transformed to his image, the more like him I'm becoming. That's the restoration part. That to me is the restorative part. It's not that I'm becoming more like Christine, but I'm becoming more like Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Christine Caine: So if I'm limiting how much fruit bearing I'm having this side of eternity because I don't want to go through the discomfort or maybe the pain of pruning, what is at stake is glory. What is at stake is the image of God on the earth. And so I think the restoration of being restored to his image and increasingly bearing his image on the earth, again, that's the correlation. I think when we think it's punitive, when we think God only prunes when I'm doing something wrong, that's a very limited view of pruning And I think it limits --

Jennifer Rothschild: And of God. And of God.

Christine Caine: Oh, very much so, very much of the character of God. And then it really limits how much fruit we're going to produce.

And, of course, I'm very mindful of women my age because I see it. And I see it very much in this sort of youth-obsessed culture and anti-aging culture, where I'm going a Scripture tells us repeatedly that we can bear fruit even into old age.

And nothing breaks my heart more -- as I look around at women my age and I'm thinking, why do you think God no longer wants to use you? Why do you not -- with all this wisdom you have, all these decades of walking with the Lord, all the knowledge of the Word of the Lord that you have, you should be bearing more fruit now than ever.

And the olive trees -- I mean, the oldest one that is on the earth, I think, is in Crete, and it's around 3,000 years old. Continuing to bear fruit today.

And, you know, Caleb -- if you remember in Scripture, Caleb was 85, and he said, "I'm as strong now as I was then. Now give me this" -- you know, he said, "Moses promised me Hebron." And he had born fruit right through to 85, and he goes, oh, I'm not stopping now.

And I feel -- and I hope somebody listening to this and listening to us right now, or watching us, is stirred to know you're not a -- if you woke up this morning and there was not a white chalk mark around your body, it means you're alive. And it means that God still wants to use you and there is fruit to be born that will bring glory to God. It's not like, well, I've done my time. I mean, we haven't done our time until we step over the threshold --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Christine Caine: -- into the other side of eternity.

So part of even my motivation in writing this was for women like 40 and above, like me -- I mean, I'm now 60 -- and going, Girls, if you're still breathing, God still has a plan. And there is -- you know, it is to our Father's great glory that we bear much fruit. You will not bear fruit if you're not willing to be pruned.

And so I really wanted to -- I wrote those chapters because I want to inspire -- I just think we've got a generation that has lost a generation of mothers in the faith. And so if I can encourage the mothers -- spiritually speaking now. It's got nothing to do with biology. But spiritually to say, Please don't abdicate your role. Please continue to bear fruit.

Because we have a generation of young women -- Paul wrote and he said, you know, "Teachers, you have many fathers." I would just add to that, "and mothers are lacking." And we need spiritual mothers and fathers. So we need women not to tap out before they're done, because we have much fruit to bear for God's glory.

But can I say that that means equally we're not exempt from the pruning process.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Christine Caine: The degree to which I am willing to allow the Lord to keep pruning me is the degree to which I will keep bearing fruit. When I thwart that pruning process, you know what? I'm going to stop bearing fruit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And sometimes I think, Christine, when we have been planted in Christ a long time and we bear beautiful fruit, sometimes we get very possessive of it thinking it's ours. Like we did something to grow this fruit and to produce it, you know?

Christine Caine: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And really, an olive tree does nothing but be an olive tree. It stays deeply rooted and it doesn't achieve anything. It just receives the olive tree life that God gave it and it does the olive tree thing. It's the same with us.

So I think, therefore, too, you're right, we need to grasp loosely. If God wants to prune something we think is a good thing, well, then so be it. It is for his glory.

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know that back in the '80s, I got a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Palm Beach Atlantic University, and I snagged a bachelor named Phil, who is no longer a bachelor because now he is my hubby. I got both from Palm Beach Atlantic University. Yeah, that's where I met my very own Dr. Phil in 1982. The degree I got, though, at PBA, it prepared me for the life and the calling that God had for me. And, to be honest, the guy I met there, he also made my life better, oh, and my calling even more rich.

So PBA is a premier Christian University in West Palm Beach, Florida, that offers whole person education that prepares every student from around the globe to tackle the big problems of their day with Godly character, open arms, and a servant's heart. Oh, that's what it did for me, and I want that for you. So if you have kids or grandkids who are wondering about their next step, well, step onto the campus of Palm Beach Atlantic University and I bet you will find that you belong. You can check it out at 413podcast.com/PBA.

All right. Now let's get back to this amazing conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you know what else I was thinking as you're describing this -- and by the way, this is so inspiring. It's such a good perspective reminder, and I appreciate it. And I'm thinking as I'm visualizing this olive tree is the fruit, you know, the olive. The only way we get olive oil is for that olive to be pressed, you know, just like smushed.

Christine Caine: Oh, yes. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So make us that spiritual application about the fruit being pressed to produce the good stuff.

Christine Caine: Sure. And the pressing is -- you know, the fact is with olives, again, they can be pressed up to five times. Because there's medicinal qualities, there are food qualities.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I didn't know that.

Christine Caine: There are so many things that come out of the pressing. And so they get pressed and pressed and pressed and pressed, because with each pressing -- of course, you get the greatest olive oil with the first pressing, and then another layer of -- quality of olive oil.

But further to that, there are different things that you get out of -- when it continues to be pressed, that are beneficial for -- that have medicinal properties. You have other things -- you can make soap out of it. There's so many different things. So it's actually -- again, the more you allow it to be pressed, the more things that are produced from it.

And that would be the same in our life. The degree to which we are willing to go through the pressing process is the degree to which, you know, fresh oil -- I mean, of course, in Scripture, the oil and anointing are so intertwined. And the anointing, you know, to use the language, would be like the divine enablement of the Holy Spirit of God to do what we otherwise could not do. And who does not need the divine enablement of God --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Christine Caine: -- in this world today? A lot of times people say to me, "Chris, how do you live your life?" you know. You're a wife and a mom, and you run a global anti-trafficking organization and travel and teach. And I go, "I couldn't do my life without God." It's actually not possible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Christine Caine: You know, I know that you're stunned. I'm stunned as well. But there is such a reliance on the spirit of God to fulfill the purpose of God. I think the Lord, Jennifer, actually very much has woven into our calling the impossibility to fulfill our calling without him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Thank you, Lord.

Christine Caine: It's like, You aren't going to be able to do this without me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Thank you, Lord.

Christine Caine: You know, like, What I've called you to is impossible, so just deal with it. And that's how he keeps us utterly dependent upon him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Christine Caine: So to me -- and, of course, the imagery there is the Garden of Gethsemane, which is the olive grove. It's just -- all the olive trees are in Gethsemane. And that's where Jesus experienced a great crushing.

I mean, where he was praying to the Father, and, I mean, literally the anxiety was so strong that it was, you know, like -- it was actually a medical condition, you know, you're sweating drops of blood because there's just such -- none of us could even begin to understand that moment of when he's saying, "Father, if there's any other way, take this cup from me."

But that crush -- that's where Jesus' victory was, in Gethsemane. And many of us -- because that's when he said, "But nevertheless, not my will, but yours." So that was when it was all a done deal. Then there's the Cross and, yes, all the victory that's attained on the Cross. The decision, though, was in Gethsemane.

And I think many of us, we've had a lot of Gethsemane moments that really are the making or the breaking of our spiritual life, where everything in you maybe wants to take another path or make a decision in a certain way, but -- and I have to ask, when was the last time we were on our knees going, "Nevertheless, Lord" --

Jennifer Rothschild: Nevertheless.

Christine Caine: -- "not my will, but yours."

And in the culture in which we live, there's a very fine line between my will being celebrated and my will being subordinated to the will of God. And I think we have to be very careful that that doesn't cross in where in our -- you know, the age and the culture in which we live in, which is all about, you know, living your best life, you do you boo --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Christine Caine: -- self-actualization, self-fulfillment, that truly the way of the Cross and the way of the Gospel is that we deny ourselves. We take up our cross and we follow him. But there are moments that we all come to.

And I think -- when I think, Jennifer, the fruit of my life and where there has been the greatest healing in other people's life -- you know, you use the oil for medicinal properties. You know, I come from a background of -- I was left in a hospital unnamed and unwanted when I was born. I was sexually abused for many years in my childhood. I was adopted out. I mean, so many things that were very traumatic.

But as I brought those things and allowed the Lord to do a deep work -- which at times felt so crushing internally. Out of that, so many people across the globe have found freedom and healing and wholeness in Christ, and God has allowed my past and my past pain to give other people a future.

But I've got to tell you, it didn't come without a lot of Gethsemane moments of, "Nevertheless, not my will, but yours." And the more I do that -- even at 60 years old. And the more there are those Gethsemane moments that you feel like are going to crush you -- but they're not. They're producing oil through you that will bring healing to other people.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I can testify to that. I have seen that in your life. I have seen that in many people's lives. May we all live the nevertheless in Jesus name.

Christine Caine: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I want to loop back to something you said, Christine, earlier about extending the olive branch, talking about peace. So I'm curious your take on that and how -- like, why that has such cultural ramifications, how it deals with our own flourishing, and what it really means.

Christine Caine: Well, totally, Jennifer. I'm like -- we're recording this in 2026. We need olive branches around the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, all over.

Christine Caine: The divisiveness and the chaos and the pain. You know, the fact is that -- I mean, of course, Jesus -- we're called to be peacemakers on the earth. That's part of our mandate. We can't do this in our own strength. And I think, again, what we'll find with the faith to flourish is we've got to keep coming back to our source. I mean, Jesus himself is our peace. He is the Prince of Peace.

And I think it's a time to remind believers -- for some reason, I just think -- especially when it comes to things like social media, believers have forgotten that Jesus actually really knows what we're posting and what we're saying and what we're doing. I'm kind of like, y'all, you do realize he knows what we're saying.

And, you know, when I think of the -- obviously, I've been involved in women's ministry for decades, and in youth ministry, so you become really aware of just how many homes are not peaceful and how many people's internal world isn't peaceful, let alone the state of the world and the wars and the chaos and the divisiveness. And I think truly what we're seeing externally played out in the world is the condition of so many of our hearts.

And so I think what we need to do is get back to our source, Jesus. Again, everything in the faith to flourish comes back to he is our source, he is the person. We have to go to the Prince of Peace himself. We have to come to this place where Jesus is our peace internally. Because if we're waiting for this world to get peaceful before we find peace, or our husband to change, or our kids to change, or our neighbor to change, or our boss to change, it's not going to happen.

So if we're rooted and grounded in Christ, we're drawing our nourishment from him, we're drawing our peace from him, then the byproduct of that is in our homes, in our workplaces, in our communities. We ought to be the bearers of peace, the peacemakers, the ones that extend the olive branch. And in a world where everyone is canceling everyone and everyone is writing everyone off, do you realize what a testimony and a witness it would be to a lost and a broken world if we proactively were the bearers of the olive branch -- metaphorically speaking, of course, if we were the peacemakers?

And, you know, when I look at it, even think in Romans when we were grafted in, I mean, we were the ones that were out -- and again, it's the olive branch that is used. You and I were grafted in. We were the olive -- like, God was so gracious to us that he grafted us in the olive branch. He took the -- you know, we were the unhealthy one of the dead one and he put us into life, into himself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, gave us life, yeah.

Christine Caine: So therefore, we should, at the very least, be the people that are extending olive branches everywhere we go and being advocates for peace and proactively not adding to the chaos and the tension. And, you know, I'm talking to you as someone that obviously advocates for the victims of human trafficking and, you know, puts traffickers in jail and all of that, so I'm saying that there are some things that we should be angry about, like that kind of injustice in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course, yes.

Christine Caine: Human trafficking is wrong. There are so many -- abuse is wrong. There are so many things.

But again, the way we go about bringing peace is very important. And I think just adding to -- the Bible says that the anger of man does not bring about the righteousness of God. So there is a way we ought to go about doing what we need to do as we bring justice and righteousness into the earth. And we do it through being pacemakers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we do.

Christine Caine: There has to be love undergirding it. And I think when you look at the olive tree and the olive branch and -- I mean, you just think so many places around the world that that olive branch and olive leaves are used as signs of peace, and yet we should be the greatest carriers of peace because he is our peace. Peace and joy and love, that ought to be fruit that is a byproduct of being a Christian. If the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives on the inside of you and me --

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach.

Christine Caine: -- we ought to be bearing this fruit. That ought to be a sign that you're in Christ. Because if you're in Christ -- just like the olive tree doesn't sit there and go, Oh, I'm going to make olives, I'm going to make olives, I'm going to make -- it doesn't force itself. It's a byproduct.

So love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, long suffering, these are not little Sunday school lessons for the kids in kids' church. This should be a byproduct of being a Christian. The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is who lives in us. We are sealed with the spirit of God until the day of redemption.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah.

Christine Caine: We ought to be producing this fruit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, it reminds me -- I just last week got to talk, Christine, to Shannon Bream. She is with Fox News Sunday, and she is a woman of God, deep abiding faith. And one of the questions I asked her was, you know, how do you -- because her book was about nothing being impossible with God. And I said, "Let's talk the impossible," which is like peace in our culture, because we other each other and we disagree. And she's, of course, on the front lines dealing with people with great political fervor. And she always keeps her cool. She's so respectful. And I know it is because of Christ in her.

But I asked her about it. And you know what she said? She said, you know, we're not here to build our own kingdom, we're not here to build our political opinions. We're not here to build anything but Christ's kingdom. And she said, so everything we do should be toward that end, making peace, and to love each other well. Those whom we disagree with, to love them well, to be the peace of Christ in their life. That is what you're explaining here, too. It's not even just something we do. It is who we are. It should be an outgrowth. Just like the olives are the fruit of the tree, the peace should be the fruit of our lives.

But as I'm thinking about this too -- like even with what you do with human trafficking. Okay? So I'm curious, can you make peace without disruption and disturbing what, you know, seems to be peace? Like, is that always possible?

Christine Caine: I mean, I wrote a chapter on that. Because it's true, there are some tables that need to be flipped, there's no doubt about it. You know -- and I wrote this with caution because, of course, you know, we go into nations and we disrupt systems that are unjust that enable trafficking. So that has to happen.

But it seems like in the culture that we're in, that some people think that flipping tables is their whole ministry. I'm like, there's only one example of that in Scripture that Jesus did it. There is not -- you know, you've got to look at it sort of as a precedent. It's not that every day everything we read in the Gospels is Jesus flipping tables.

And I'm wondering, if you've sort of got the ministry of flipping tables incorporated, maybe, just maybe, you know, there's something not right. So very definitely is there, you know, systems of toxicity or abuse or injustice where you are going to have to disrupt the peace in order to bring peace. There is no doubt about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word. Good word.

Christine Caine: And I am very committed to that. Obviously, I've got whole decades of that in my life.

But also in the midst of a chaotic, divisive culture, where sometimes you're just adding to the noise and venting and it's not really to bring peace, it's not disrupting the peace to bring peace, it's just adding to the noise in order to continue the chaos, I think we need the wisdom of God in this age to know the difference. And you can't do that unless you're deeply rooted and grounded in Christ.

And I think obviously because of social media, we could just sort of, you know, just write everything and somehow just send and post as if it doesn't matter or use our mouths to both bring good or destruction. You know, we really have to come back to our basic Christianity, you know, watch what we're saying and watch what we're posting and just ask the Lord, is this adding -- is this something I'm supposed to be doing? Is this enabling peace? Or, like, do I need to disrupt the peace in this case to bring peace or am I just venting out of my own unhealed wounds?

I think this is what we can learn from the olive tree. We have got to -- I'm going to keep coming back to it. We've got to be rooted and grounded in Christ. I mean, truly we've got to go deeper in our root system than we've ever gone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Okay. Well, that leads me to this. Because you talk about abiding. In your book you say the degree to which you are abiding in Christ is the degree to which you will experience fruitfulness. So first of all I want you to talk in practical sense what does it mean to abide, because that's a church word that we may not know what it actually means. And then secondly, what kind of fruit do we expect if we're abiding?

Christine Caine: Well, for sure. And I think abiding is, to me, any way that you are walking daily intimately with Jesus. And, you know, we can use our spiritual disciplines to help us do that. I love that because, you know, you're in the Word or you're in worship, part of a church community, things that to me -- these are not legalistic practices, these are things that help us to abide. That is what keeps us close to Jesus.

And it's the reality. It's not some deeply mystical, ethereal, weird thing. It's walking with Jesus every day, like, you know, and staying connected to him. You could be going for a walk along the beach, you could be walking out in nature, you know.

But to me, our spiritual disciplines -- over 40 years of following Jesus, staying daily in the Word, you know, worshiping the Lord -- thank God we've got access to such phenomenal worship music -- being part of a strong, you know, Jesus loving, Bible believing church. These things for me are what have kept me. They have kept me abiding. They have kept me connected to Jesus.

You know, the practice of, for me, silence and solitude. I have a very sort of public life, so me just withdrawing where I can for any amount of time that I can find of just where it's me and the Lord. Like truly, when I say things like he's my most intimate friend, it's not -- I'm not just saying that. It's like -- you know, the longer you walk with him, just the more natural -- it's an overflow.

You know, I'm with him when I'm reading the Word and when I'm driving, you know. And I'm playing worship music in the car, and it's me and him, and I'm worshiping him. And when I'm just going for a walk along the beach -- I live here in Southern California -- and I need to think things through. And when I say talk things out, you know, I'm talking to him.

To me, the abiding is this minute-by-minute just reliance on him, you know. And it truly is as natural as the air I breathe nowadays. Like, you know, my thing is I very quickly know if I'm not more than I know that I am. Like, I'm just -- it's just such a part of -- after four decades of -- it's not like, oh, now I'm going to step into me and God time. It's like -- to me, Jesus time is just like -- the more intimate you become, the more he becomes part of your just normal everyday life. You could be cooking, you could be driving to work, you could be having a conversation.

You're just more and more aware of the presence of God, that God is just with you. God is with you wherever you are. But then the intentional moments I have of time in the Word, time, you know, in community, those things strengthen me in many different ways.

So to me, that's what I mean by abiding. If you're trying to get through this life on Planet Earth, 168 hours a week, by just dropping into church for an hour a week, it's going to be really hard. That's what I'm saying.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christine Caine: You know, that's not really -- you have 168 hours. And say you're in church for one hour, if you go. The other 167 hours, you are being bombarded with everything that is designed to take you away from God. So unless you are staying connected to him with great intentionality, the byproduct is you are just going to drift during the week. You go, "But I go to church on Sunday." But the other 167 hours, there is so much else going on.

And my dad used to always say, Jennifer -- he'd take us swimming. We'd go to this particular beach in Australia, in Sydney, just an hour north of where I grew up. And there was a huge undertow, a rip current in this beach. And every year people would die. I always say I'm not sure why our parents took us there, whether there was a subliminal message. But anyway...

So we would go and -- but my dad would always kind of put up two beach umbrellas, you know, a distance apart. And he would say to us three kids -- he'd always say to us, "Make sure that you're checking your markers regularly. Look up at these two beach umbrellas, make sure that you're swimming between the beach umbrellas. These are your markers."

And he said, "Because kids, you will go out there, and you're going to be swimming and having fun and just enjoying the sea, but here's what's going to happen without you realizing it. There's a tow, there's an undercurrent underneath, an undertow, that is going to be carrying you out to sea. And so you've got to check your markers, because, kids, always remember, all you have to do to drift is nothing." Just do nothing and you will drift.

So when I talk about abiding and then having certain disciplines that help us to abide, what I am saying, these are not things that make you a Christian or in and of themselves make you any closer to God. They make sure that I'm within the markers and I'm not drifting away, that I'm staying connected. That's why I have those checks and balances in my life, to make sure that I'm not drifting. Because all you have to do to drift away from Jesus and stop producing fruit is nothing. Nothing. Just do nothing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is so profound and so scary and so -- I mean, I'm so glad you said that. What you have to do to drift is nothing.

Okay. So there's some people right now who might feel a little of the drift, and suddenly they've had this epiphany and they don't want to just stay drifting or languishing. So you write about this concept of moving from languishing to flourishing. So someone listening, they're there, what can they do if that's the case?

Christine Caine: I love that. And, you know, there's so many different things, and it depends -- part of this is on your personality. Now, firstly, here is -- the great beauty of the Gospel is, you know, you cannot out drift the love or the grace or the mercy of God, which is beautiful. We thank God for all of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Christine Caine: So someone listening to this might think, Christine, you know, I knew better, and here I am languishing out here somewhere and just -- and why would God want me back? Well, let me tell you first and foremost, God wants you back. And he never left you. Anyway, no matter -- you never out drifted his love or his grace or his care or his attention.

And that's the beauty and the mystery of the Gospel. And so the first thing is just acknowledging it and knowing you don't even have to do the hard work of coming back. He will draw you back. He will already do that.

But I think it's the recognition of just saying to him in your own way, "I long to come back," whatever that might mean and however that might look. And if certainly you've got any people that were -- you know, I'm a big believer in community. If there's somebody that you can reach out to is a great start. Like, any of my friends -- and I've had -- over the last ten years, I can say -- especially in the last two years -- several people that sort of kind of drifted by the wayside for different things, but kind of contact me out of the blue and -- I mean, it's nothing but a delight for me to come back and go, Come on, let's start walking together again, let's start running together again.

And a lot of us have done and said things in the last few years that we wish we hadn't, and I think you're going to find that there's more grace than you realize. And don't allow the enemy to lie to you. Because I think a lot of people want to come back into community, want to come back into relationship with the Lord, want to pick up the Word again, want to listen to worship again, but almost feel this sense of sort of shame because of -- you know, it's been a brutal season. And I just want to say to them that, you know, your God loves you and you can always come home. That's the beauty of the Gospel.

And so whether you're reaching out to someone or, you know, you want to pick up a book or you want to pick up the Word, just take the next step and you will be stunned at how God will meet you in that place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. That is the grace, the grace of Jesus to us and through us.

Christine Caine: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Christine, this is so good. I cannot wait -- I just kind of skimmed, and now I cannot wait to read your book fully. The nerd in me, this is Christ in me, all of me. And I know my people are going to feel the same. But we're going to get to our last question. Okay?

In your book you also write about having evergreen faith.

Christine Caine: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So just tell us, how do we have -- or foster that kind of faith?

Christine Caine: You know, again, you're going to go -- everything --

Jennifer Rothschild: Same answer, right?

Christine Caine: Abiding in Christ. Because -- you know, and Isaiah says -- in Isaiah 40:31, it says, "Those that wait upon the Lord." So you can insert whatever, abide in God, be rooted and grounded in Jesus. So those that wait upon the Lord shall what? Renew their strength. They will mount up on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not faint. And can I just say, Jennifer, you know, I've been -- I keep saying I'm 60 because I love it. I love saying my age. Well, I'm going to be this year, but I'm celebrating all year.

Jennifer Rothschild: You should.

Christine Caine: So that's my thing. But my deal is that I probably have been speaking this verse over my life for over three decades. So there's a few verses that I might say out loud every day. This would be one of them. And even when I was, like, 30, I would say, "Christine, you know, you're going to wait upon the Lord, and you will run and not grow weary. You will walk and not faint." The key is waiting upon the Lord. The key is being rooted and grounded in Christ.

And I can testify that here I am in my 60th year, and by God's grace I am more pumped up than ever. I mean, listen -- and I've seen more than ever. I mean, if I had any reason to be cynical or disappointed -- I mean, I've got more reasons four decades later than I did four decades ago, if that was the case.

But can I say, as I've learned to fix my eyes on Jesus and to be rooted and grounded in Christ, I feel more peace than ever, more joy than ever, more love than ever. I love him more than ever. I don't know how you could fix your eyes on him and be rooted and grounded in him and not be more full of him and love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, long suffering, self-control, and becoming more like him.

And I just think that's a byproduct of really just being rooted and grounded in Christ. And I don't have to then think that my fruit bearing is depending on what's happening around me. I know that my fruit bearing is dependent on how deep my root system goes into Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, you heard the woman, Simply put, fix your eyes on him and be full of him. Stay rooted and grounded and flourish. Isn't that the way we want to live? I mean, and didn't you just love all the olive tree insights? Doesn't it make you just want to read more? Me too. Me too. And it also made me want to add a few olives to my lunch here when we're done.

Even better, though, my people, we need to add her book to our libraries. So we're going to have a link to Christine's book, "The Faith to Flourish" at 413podcast.com/394, so that you can get a copy. And while you're there, of course, you can read the transcript of this conversation.

By the way, I'm also going to link you -- so you need to go to the Show Notes, because I'm going to link you to another great podcast conversation I had a while back with author Margaret Feinberg. Because she touched on the olive tree and olives in Scripture and just the spiritual ramifications. So I think that would be a super nice complement to this conversation.

All right, our people. I told you, I've hit the road. I'm out and about for the Hope of the Heaven Tour with Kelly Minter. We're in Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina. Here we come. And I hope you can come too.

All right. But with this conversation, that's it for today. It's a wrap. So remember, no matter whatever you face, no matter how you feel, oh, my friends, you can flourish. I can flourish. Because you know what? All of us, we can do all things through Christ who gives us strength. I can. And that means you can.

All right, we'll see you next week. KC, get back in town. We miss you. I need a friend in the closet. (Singing) I'm lonely. I'm lonely without you. One is the loneliest number.