4:13 Podcast: Can I Recover From Bad Decisions? With Nicole C. Mullen [Episode 384]

Nicole C. Mullen: My hope, honestly, is Christ, because the rest is changeable. Whether it's through death, divorce, separation, whether it's through -- whatever it might be. A bad choice that was not mine to make. And so I have gone through the peaks and the valleys, but my steady has been Christ. And so at the end of the day -- because if I give you any other hope, then you think the carrot may not be attainable for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Happy 2026, our 4:13ers. We are so glad you are starting this new year with us. And it is going to be a good one. And we are starting out with not just good, but great. Excellent, actually, because she is one of my favorite people. Nicole C. Mullen is on the podcast today. And she is talking about her latest book which is titled -- I love this title, listen up -- "It Is Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing." Great title, right?

Anyway, you know her as a singer-songwriter, but, oh, she is a certified Bible nerd, who knows the Word, and she can teach it. So today we are going to learn what the Bible says about making wise decisions, and she's going to give you all the biblical examples you will need and some straight-up Scripture guidance that you need.

So no matter what choices you are facing, or maybe no matter what choices you have made that you might regret, ooh, you are going to get all you need to know to manage all that well through the grace of God.

So, KC, here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can truly do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey. Aren't you glad you're here in this new year? New mercies, new beginnings, new year. But it's still just me and KC, your old friends in the podcast closet. Two friends just talking about one topic, with zero stress. I love new years.

And so if you've joined us brand new this year, I'm Jennifer. And along with KC, my Seeing Eye Guy, we just have a goal, one goal, and that is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable as you are living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. All that God has called you to be, all that God has called you to do, you can do through his power in you.

And new years give us an opportunity to kind of recalibrate, don't they, KC?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know? And I think it's interesting, we're starting a new year talking about maybe things that we regret and how we can recover, because we've all had them. But, oh, it's a new year, so it's full of hope.

But you know what, KC? I was thinking as I was thinking about what we're going to talk about with Nicole, I thought, what do I really regret in life? You know, the beautiful thing is, the longer you live, you still have things you regret. But they are so buried under the grace of God --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that you don't feel the sting of them anymore --

KC Wright: Yeah. That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- which is a gift.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I did have one mortifying thing that came up in my mind, I will say, that if I could go back and tell my younger self to behave differently, I would have. And it's really not a big deal. Like, it wasn't sin or immoral or terrible, but it's just like I wish I had behaved differently. Okay, so here's what it was. I'm just going to tell everybody.

KC Wright: Oh, she going to spill that tea.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm going to spill the tea. All right. So I was a senior in college, Palm Beach Atlantic University. Big shout out to Palm Beach Atlantic. I was a psychology major. And they give all these academic awards, you know, at the end of a school year or at the end of a degree year. I don't know what it was. I can't remember, I'm too old now.

But anyway, I was not given the biggest academic award, but I was given some kind of award in the psychology department. So I was in this big conference room with all of these professors that I had had, like, six of them, and they were all saying really kind things to me. They presented me, like, half a dozen roses. I mean, it was the nicest thing.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I was so overwhelmed with absolute discomfort, I was so -- here I was a psych major, and I really needed to work on my own level of insecurity and self-awareness.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I was so awkward that literally when they finally finished their kind presentation, I said, "Thank you. Can I go now?" like I was ten years old. Like, here I was, 21 or '2 years old -- I don't know how old I was when I graduated from college -- but I was like -- what in the world? "Can I go now?" That is literally what I said. I regret that so much.

KC Wright: Yeah. We've all had a moment like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? When you just feel like -- oh, I wish I could go back and say, "Jennifer, don't let your insecurity speak for you. Be a grownup." Anyway...

KC Wright: Open mouth, insert foot.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It was so embarrassing. And they were all like, "Well, sure," thinking, why did we give her this award? Anyway...

That is such a small regret in the scheme of life. Like, I get it. Sometimes there are things we have done, choices we have made that are so much worse. I get it.

KC Wright: I think in my life, my biggest regret -- well, there's been many. But honestly, if you fly a plane over it, it's the decisions you make with an unrenewed mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Okay.

KC Wright: With an unrenewed mind --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

KC Wright: -- the things you did in your 20s, your 30s because you didn't have a renewed mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And that only comes from the washing of the Word of God --

Jennifer Rothschild: It does. It does.

KC Wright: -- and a constant casting down thoughts and replacing lies with truth. Insert "Buy Jennifer's book" right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it's true, KC.

KC Wright: Yeah, it's an unrenewed mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, what is the Scripture that says that if we walk in the flesh, we're going to fulfill the desires of the flesh. But if we walk in the Spirit --

KC Wright: The Spirit.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that's when we fulfill the desires of the Spirit, which is how we want to live.

And, KC, I'm glad you said the word "renewed" for renewing our mind, because, honestly, Nicole is going to show us how we can move from regret to renewal, no matter what the choices or the consequences of those choices have been. So there is hope, my friends, for this new year for every bit of your life. So let's introduce Nicole and hear this great conversation.

KC Wright: Nicole C. Mullen, God's girl, woman of God. She's a multiple Dove award-winning and Grammy-nominated singer and songwriter, known worldwide for songs such as her soaring declaration of faith and hope in "Redeemer."

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't we love it?

KC Wright: Oh, my --

Jennifer Rothschild: Are you going to sing it? (Singing) And I know --

KC Wright: (Singing) -- my Redeemer lives.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Now, that right there, my friends, that set you up to want to hear from Nicole. Because that was the bad singing of it, and now you'll get to know -- you'll get to hear the voice of the woman who can actually sing it. Okay, go ahead, KC.

KC Wright: Oh, I remember one year in Nashville. I had never heard of Nicole C. Mullen. I'm at the Gospel Music Association. And Nicole C. Mullen walks out on that stage and sings that song --

Jennifer Rothschild: Chills.

KC Wright: -- and your goosebumps gave birth to goosebumps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: Anyway, "Redeemer," hello. What a song. Life-changing.

She began her career as a background singer before flourishing as a solo artist. Nicole has also become a sought-after speaker on stages across the globe, proclaiming the truth of Scripture and the power of God to bring healing and wholeness. Nicole made her acting debut in June of 2025 as Elizabeth Freeman in the Heroic Pictures film "American Miracle." Is there anything this woman cannot do?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what I'm saying.

KC Wright: Anything?

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. Okay, settle in for Nicole and J.R.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Nicole. Most of us know you as, obviously, the amazing singer-songwriter, mostly because of your song, like, from back in the day -- and it is still on the radio -- "Redeemer." Okay? Just for you people who landed on Planet Earth last week, yes, Nicole C. Mullen, (singing) and I know my Redeemer lives. That one. Okay?

Nicole C. Mullen: You better sing.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can't sing it like you, but I just want to make sure they know the song. Okay. Because that's how we know you, from that song. And many others, of course, not just that.

But, you know, that -- I was curious. Like, to me, that just puts you on this national -- international stage. And so I'm wondering how that impacted your path going forward, and I'm curious if you still sing the song. Because that's kind of like Michael W. Smith's "Friends." Like, do you still sing it? Give us an update on, like, how that changed your life and what you're doing now with that particular song and music in general.

Nicole C. Mullen: Okay. So just so you know, I think I'll be singing that song until I am 120 years old. I'll be singing, "I know that I know that I know," yes. So it is definitely a song that has changed my life. And it was also a song, Jennifer, that was born out of hardship.

Let me just back up and say, first of all, thank you for having me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Nicole C. Mullen: You know I love you two pieces. I love you to pieces and you're one of my all-time sheroes. You know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same. Thank you, dear. Same.

Nicole C. Mullen: I want to say that, make sure I put that out there.

But, yeah, "Redeemer" was written in -- I think oftentimes we think that songs that may have impacted our lives, or people that we see from afar, we sometimes think that they just have, you know, dreamy lifestyles and everything is always roses and, you know, things of that nature. But I've found that in the hard times is where Christ shows up and where he shines the brightest.

And so in one of my night seasons -- you know, I'm sure we've all gone through them. I don't think anybody's going to leave this earth unscathed. And so we all have something that is redeemable. We have ashes that we need to give to Christ so that he can make a masterpiece out of.

And in the midst of my night season or night seasons is where Christ began to download a song of hope. And that song of hope was initially my own song that I sang, you know, in the midst of what I was going through as my song of hope, but I didn't know that he would allow my little seed of a song to become hope for many other people, millions of people around the world.

And so 25 years later, I'm still singing it because it is still true. No, it's not just still true, it is still truth. And it is still effective, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is. And I can just imagine private Nicole singing that truth to your own soul, I know that my Redeemer lives. And that's from the Book of Job, isn't it? And at the end, he will stand on the earth.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. And though my body be destroyed, in my flesh I'm going to see God. You're right. And as you said, Jennifer, Job wrote it in the midst of his night season. He was not on a mountaintop. And after reading that story one day -- you know, and normally we don't read Job to be cheered up. It's not like one of those stories, oh, let me go and feel good about myself or good about life.

But I was led to it, I was drawn to it one day. And after I read it, I thought if Job can praise God in the midst of his night season, how much more can I, when I've only gone through an nth degree of what he's gone through?

And so I picked up my guitar that day and it became my sacrifice of praise. And I put it upon my altar of, you know, just -- of hardship. And I found that when I did that and when I do that, then it's like my perspective changes. You know, even if my scenario around me doesn't change, I'm changed because I see God in a greater way. So he's shown up and he has taken my broken pieces and he is working them into the masterpiece that he has already designed. And so for me, it is well with my soul.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love that you said, "It is well with my soul." And here's the thing, Nicole. He's done a good job taking all those broken pieces and making something even more beautiful.

And so, yes, we know you as music. And I love the truth of the Redeemer. But, see, like, if I didn't stop you, you'd just start preaching out of the Book of Job, because deep down you are a Bible nerd. I know this about you.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So let's move from your music, singing to writing. Because you've written this new book, and it's called "It's Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing." I love that title, by the way. And in it you open with a story that I think gives us a glimpse of this -- what you just called night season. And it was based kind of on a choice you made when you were just 20 years old that led to, ooh, such a dark time. So tell us about that, please, and then how you eventually got free from the shackles that it created.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. So when I was 20 -- you know, after going to Bible school in Dallas, Texas, and growing up in a healthy home where my parents loved Jesus -- you know, now I'm not in Cincinnati any longer, I'm in Dallas. And I meet this guy and I thought, okay, he was just like yeah. And he said the right things and he looked as if he was going to be able to, you know, play the right part. And when he proposed to me on the first date, I should have --

Jennifer Rothschild: Wait, wait. First date?

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. I know. That's what I call it. See, that's young and dumb. So you can be young, but you don't have to be dumb.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Nicole C. Mullen: But --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, proposed on first date. Continue. This is juicy.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. And I should have -- and let me just say this before I tell you my answer.

My mindset was that I thought that the will of God was going to be something I just didn't want to do, so I would just reverse engineer. So if it was something I didn't want to do, I'd just say yes because that was God's will. Because I know a lot of people think that. It's crazy, but we kind of think that if I don't want to go to Africa -- you know, you hear that all the time, God's probably going to send me to Africa, but I don't want to -- well, that was -- even though I had a relationship with Christ and I loved him and I knew him, I kind of had acquired some stinking thinking along the way.

So when the pressure was put on me and the proposal was met, was given, it was given along with the caveat of "and if you say no, basically you're going to miss out on the will of God and you'll always have to settle for second best." So, Jennifer, the last thing my 20-year-old self wanted to do was settle for God's second best. And I didn't want to get married, but I thought this was probably the thing God wanted for me. Oh, I was so wrong.

Anyway, so I tried it out on my mom, my mom said, "No, this is not God." But at that moment my pride began to surface, because now I had to prove that I had heard from God when I had not. So I went ahead and said yes. And by the time I had said yes, it was the end of the year and I was weeks away from being 21.

And I didn't have the heart to tell my parents, who arrived at the wedding, that he had already hit me the first time. And so I just thought, well, he said he was sorry, so sorry means that I am to completely forget, right? Wrong. That there are no consequences, right? Wrong. That I am to trust him now, right? Wrong.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wrong, yeah.

Nicole C. Mullen: And so -- but that was what I thought. And so I chose, well, I'm going to forgive him and he said he'll never do it again. And then for the next three years, it was full of drama and drama. And, you know, there were a series of being punched in the face, pulled out of the bed, dragged by my heels, kicked in the ribs, just things of that nature, physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse.

And then, Jennifer, he would scream this question at me often. And he would ask me, he would say, "Nicole, what is your purpose in life?" And then he would answer, "That's your problem, you have no purpose in life."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

Nicole C. Mullen: But can I tell you that even in the midst of him yelling and screaming and punching, the seed of the Word of God that had been planted in me was stronger than the blows that were given to me. Because not for one second, Jennifer, did I ever think I did not have a purpose, even though I knew that he was a puppet and the enemy of our souls was the hand underneath the puppet trying to beat the purpose of God out of my life, trying to silence the voice that God had given me, trying to intimidate me out of the will of God. It was really the enemy using him as a tool against me.

But in the midst of that, the Lord would comfort me with his Word. He would remind me of what had been spoken over me in the past. He would remind me of what he was able to do in the future. And I knew that if I wanted whatever God had on reserve for me, I would have to clear the path, to the best of my ability, from any unforgiveness, and so I would have to forgive him. And so after every beating, I did just that.

And eventually the Lord delivered me and the Lord showed me that I didn't have to have my own purpose. Because according to Romans 8:28, he worked all things together for my good. And he's still working them together for my good. Even things that are not good. And he said because I love him, I am called, not according to Nicole C. Mullen's purpose, but according to his purpose. And that was all I needed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's powerful. So let's stay in that setting for just another uncomfortable minute here, because none of us want to hear that this is what you went through. But clearly you're not there anymore.

Nicole C. Mullen: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So for the person who might have a similar situation -- and it may not -- you got it on all levels, dude. You got emotional, spiritual, and physical abuse, like, all of it at once. Somebody listening may not have all of it at once, but they may have one of them, and they're kind of waking up and going, oh, wait a minute. You forgave this person --

Nicole C. Mullen: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but you still left.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And can you speak to the person who is struggling in the midst of this. What do I do? The person says they're a Christian, but they are being abusive. What do I do? Nicole, just give us a little bit of an insight. What does she do?

Nicole C. Mullen: Perfect. Great question. This is also addressed a little bit in the book "It's Never Wrong To Do the Right Thing."

And the story that I surround it with is Abigail's story. And she was married to Nabal, the narcissist, Nabal probably the abuser more than likely. But I would say to her, that woman, my sister who may be listening in, that the best thing you can do first of all is to cry out to God and then to run for help. Abigail ran for help. But she had the mind of Christ in doing so because she was like, okay, what do I do? And she was able to think quickly and had a plan that she'd put together and then she executed that plan.

So my encouragement to you would be to reach out for godly help. Reach out to Christ first, call -- even if it's, "Jesus, I need help." "Lord, help me. Give me wisdom." And ask for it and believe by faith he will, and then do what he puts in your heart and your mind to do. You might need to call a pastor. It might be you need to reach out to a grandmother, a counselor, the police. You need to get help, you need -- for the safety of you and your household.

And this is also what the story of Abigail in the Bible shows us. Abigail decided, I'm not going to go along with the dangerous decisions that are being made for my household. It's going to bring death to all of us. And so she ran interference and God gave her victory.

We see the antithesis in the New Testament with Ananias and Sapphira. There may not have been abuse, but it was a dangerous decision because the wife went along with the foolishness and the ungodliness that she knew was in error against God. She went along with it and it became destruction for she and her husband.

And so we are called to be Abigails. We are called to stand up in the face of evil, even when it means I cannot side with my spouse, because I love God more. We're not being disrespectful, we're not dishonoring. We're honoring the Lord and what he has said and what he has called us to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, thus the title "It Is Never Wrong To Do the Right Thing." And so you mentioned seeking help. Maybe it's a pastor, maybe it's a counselor or grandma. Okay? So in your situation, were there people who supported and inspired you through that difficult time?

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. God gave me great sister girls during that time. And he gave me family. And it was their hands, it was their extra bedrooms at times. It was their, you know, car picking me up from the hospital. It was their words of encouragement that carried me through. It was their listening ears. Now, some of my girlfriends were going through the same thing. Some of them had gone through the same thing. And we were all loving Jesus. And some of our counterparts professed to love Jesus too. But God sent them to help me.

And then he also gave me a mom that -- you know, I have a whole chapter dedicated to her. It's, you know, "A Shero Named Mom." And a lot of us may have mother figures if we don't have a mom like her. She spoke truth into my life. She was a steady. Even when I made wrong decisions, Mom never put it back in my face saying, you know, You got yourself in it, get yourself out and then come talk with me. No. Mom was full of grace and mercy. She covered me, she prayed for me.

And for a while she pretended that she did not know, but she was talking to him on the other side, telling him, I dare you to put -- you know. But didn't let me know until afterwards because -- you know, so God gave me great women and great men, my dad.

You know, my dad has always been a peacemaker. But he was there to receive me back and to say, We're here for you, that we're covering you. And so I am grateful for the unsung heroes that are among us, that sometimes we fail to acknowledge as much as they deserve. And my prayer is that not only will we see them and honor them, but that eventually, Jennifer, all of us will become heroes and sheroes too for someone else.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that's what I was just about to ask you. So you've got this faith-filled family tree, and clearly, you know, you've been supported by them, influenced by them. I'm curious what you've learned from them. Like, what is it that has been downloaded into your DNA that you've learned from observation, from your experience when they have given you grace, et cetera? What have you learned from them that you transfer now to your relationships?

Nicole C. Mullen: Wow. I have learned, I will say, practical, steady, faithful faith from my family members. Like, really just that consistent faith in believing God for what he said, but that manifests itself in practical everyday ways. It's not just a faith that is just on its knees praying, but it's a faith that gets up and has hands and eyes and feet and a voice, and it stays true and consistent until it actually sees the manifestation of what it is that it's believing for.

And so I've seen that in my parents, I've seen that in my grandparents. It's a baton that they've passed on to me. And I love it when I talk to my three children and I see them holding on to that same baton, carrying it forward.

And for me -- you know, my dad, one of his favorite songs before he went to heaven was by Steve Green, and it was "may all who come behind us find us faithful." And that was what he lived by. That's what my mom lives by. That's what they have sewn into our hearts, to be faithful in faith to Christ, because Christ has been faithful to us.

And so that's also what I see in the book that I've written. That's what I want to highlight to other people, that faith is the foundation for our right decisions. Faith in Christ is our best foundation. And then from there, we can do the exploits that he's called us to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And faith is not always big drama.

Nicole C. Mullen: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Faith is daily, you know?

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what, Nicole? I did not know this about your dad. That was my daddy's song that he wanted at his funeral.

Nicole C. Mullen: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Nicole C. Mullen: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: May those who come behind us find us faithful.

Nicole C. Mullen: Can I say this really quickly?

Jennifer Rothschild: Uh-huh.

Nicole C. Mullen: Is that at his funeral -- my dad never met Steve Green, even though I know Steve. I asked Steve if he would come and sing it at my dad's funeral, and he did.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's wonderful.

Nicole C. Mullen: And it was just -- yeah. So your dad and my dad had great taste.

Jennifer Rothschild: They sure did. And I bet they are talking in heaven about their girls.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what I bet.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. They're cutting up. Yes. You're right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that, Nicole.

Okay. So it's obvious how God has used your family to -- these heroes and sheroes in your family to influence faith in you. But I'm curious about someone I read about. Okay. Elizabeth Freeman. So I want you to tell us who she is. But also, Nicole is not just a singer, she's not just an author, but she is an actress. Because you played her in the movie "American Miracle." So I want to know who Elizabeth Freeman is, and then you got to talk about this movie and what you did in it.

Nicole C. Mullen: Okay. Thank you. Okay, so Elizabeth Freeman was a shero I had never heard about until the producers of the movie "The American Miracle" -- you can see it now because it's out and about -- they called me to ask me if I would play her part. And so I had to, of course, go educate myself. And they educated me on her even more so.

But she was a slave who lived in the 1700s. And she lived in Massachusetts. And she had heard her master and one of his friends and some other guys -- one of his friends was a lawyer. They had written something called the Sheffield Resolves because they were wanting to be free from the tyranny of England, and so they had put in there that all men were created equal and independent of each other. And so she heard that.

And then later on, a few years later, she heard something else that was crafted from, like, the influence of the Sheffield Resolves called the Declaration of Independence. So in 1776 she's hearing now the language. She can't read, but she can retain. And she hears that all men are created equal and independent of each other, and she's thinking, okay, that's the second time. And then she hears it again the third time when her state designs their Constitution and it has the same thing, all men are created equal.

So eventually, after an altercation with her mistress, she runs away. And she goes to the lawyer that's a friend of her master who helped write the Sheffield Resolves. And she asked him, she said, "So I've heard these things. But am I all-mankind?" Basically, should I not qualify? Like, you wanted freedom from England. I want freedom from slavery too. And so the lawyer, he heard her out and he decided to take her case.

So they took her case before a judge and jury, and all of them unanimously agreed that she should be granted her freedom, and they gave it to her with backpay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Nicole C. Mullen: And so she eventually became a nanny and a businesswoman. She bought her own home, she did good in the community. And two years after she was granted her freedom, Jennifer, all of the slaves in Massachusetts were granted their freedom. And this was about -- almost 100 years before all of the slaves in America would be free. But what stood out to me is that had she not heard, retained, and inquired and asked for her freedom, it would not have been granted to her. She would have died a slave.

And so it awakened me to the fact that there are things that God has already said yes for me, for you, for us, that -- we have to make our request. We have to say, Lord, I'm laying ahold of this, and I'm going to believe you with tenacity until I actually see it come about. I'm going to bug you. I'm going to come before you. I'm going to remind you of what the Word says. Not because you're being stingy, but because I heard it and I'm putting my faith with what you've already said. And so he tells us to ask. Said if you ask, you will receive. If you seek, you will find. If you knock, the door will be open.

And I think sometimes we want to receive without asking. We want the door to be open without knocking. We want to find without seeking. And he says, no, we have to put works with our faith. And that's what Elizabeth did. And so it just encouraged me to up my game, to up my requests. You know, it encouraged me to lay ahold of freedom for myself and for other people and just really, when I hear it, to act upon what I hear. The Bible says faith comes by hearing. And hearing what? Hearing the Word of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Word of God, yeah. Girl, that is so powerful. Thank you, Lord, for Elizabeth Freeman. She had courage. She really had courage.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So here's a hard question. And if you don't want to answer it, we're going to edit it out.

Nicole C. Mullen: Ask. Ask.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right. So you're an African-American woman. I'm a white woman. I am so deeply disturbed and disgusted by slavery in our nation. I mean, totally disgusted. So was that particularly difficult for you as an African-American woman, knowing that we still have a long way to go in our country, to play a slave? What was that like for you emotionally?

Nicole C. Mullen: That's a really good question. You know, it's so interesting because I guess you would probably think -- or maybe one would think that, you know, playing a slave as an African-American would make me feel just enraged.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Nicole C. Mullen: But actually, for some reason I think because I know the outcome, I knew the outcome, my chin was raised and my shoulders went back. And it was like this is where we were, but this is not where I'm at.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Nicole C. Mullen: So because of that, when I would sit in a movie theater and I'd hear the music change and I'd feel the mood, you know, go sour, I could hold on to hope because I knew this has a good outcome. This is going to end well.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know how the story ends, yeah.

Nicole C. Mullen: I know how the story ends.

And the same is true for us in our lives. There are twists and turns. There's trauma and there's drama. Like, you asked me, you know, the one word that I would describe my life in, and I said -- you and I were talking prior to, I said I'm under construction. But it's an under construction that is hopeful because I know how my story ends. I don't know all the details, but I know it ends with me in Christ. It ends with me in eternity with him. It ends with love, joy, peace, patience. You know, it ends with greatness.

And so the rest of it -- you know, like it says over in Romans 8, for the sufferings of this present time, they're not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us, Jennifer. Therefore, we can live a courageous life.

Jennifer Rothschild: We can. And I'm just going to say, that glory that will be revealed is not just what happens on the other side. I see it in you right now, my sister, I really do. There is a glory that has been revealed. I love you. I appreciate your honesty there. That's super impactful to me personally.

Nicole C. Mullen: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So I think you're one of the sheroes. But let's go to some biblical ones. Okay? You already mentioned Abigail.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so in your book, of course, you talk about several women, like Abigail, Rahab, you know, that made hard decisions that required lots of courage.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm curious how these ancient women -- you just showed us in Abigail -- can really help us modern women make good wise decisions. So I don't know if you want to go more into Abigail, or you want to talk about Rahab, but give us another picture of that.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. Well, I love Rahab as well. Rahab was my make-a-deal girl. You know, she knew how to make a deal. And we need deal makers in business, in our families, in our relationships, in our health. She made a deal, and the deal turned out to be effective in the sense of it gave life to her and her whole family because she was able to seize the moment, see what needed to be done. She was able to side with the God of the universe and his people, not with her own people.

She said, No. You know what? I'm willing to trade in my own culture for the Kingdom, for another culture, the culture of God. And I think that's also something we have to reckon with too, Jennifer. You know, before I am even an African-American, I'm Kingdom of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you are.

Nicole C. Mullen: Jesus said it too. When his family members came and they were like, you know, "We want to talk to Jesus," his mother, his brothers, his sisters, he was like, I'm not trying to diss my mom and my sisters and brothers, but really these right here, the ones who do the work of my Father, the Kingdom citizens, they are my family first. And so my point is, Rahab was able to make a deal because she was willing to be born again into another family, the family of God. So I love her. And she's one of my sheroes.

Jochebed. Jochebed was --

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, who's that?

Nicole C. Mullen: Oh, I love her. Now, she's one of those unsung heroes that we all know her child, but very few know her. But when the government gave a mandate to kill all the firstborn sons in Egypt, Jochebed was a Hebrew woman. And she said, "You know what? I'm not going to do it. Like, I'm just not going to do it."

And so she had a little baby boy. He was cute, he was smart, and he was a good little boy. But she was like, "He's three months now, he's" -- he was probably getting a little noisy. And she said, "Now, I'm not going to kill him, like we're told. I'm not going to drown him in the Nile as it was commanded." But she said, "I'm going to make him a little ark, kind of like Noah's ark. And I'm going to cover it with pitch on the outside so it's buoyant. And I'm going to put him in the Nile in the boat and I'm going to have my daughter follow it to see where it lands, and I'm going to pray that God protects him."

Long story short, God protects this baby. He winds up being rescued by Pharaoh's daughter, the princess, and she has mercy and she has compassion on him. And she's like, "Oh, this is one of the Hebrew babies," and she pulls him out. And then the little sister -- or the big sister to the little baby, she comes up to the princess and she says, "Would you like for me to find a Hebrew nursemaid for you to take care of the baby?" And the princess is like, "Absolutely." So the little girl goes home and she gets her own mama, Jochebed. And Jochebed now is nursing this baby. And she's getting paid because the princess said, "I'm going to pay you to do it."

So the same baby that the princess's father, the Pharaoh, had commanded to be killed is now the same baby that the princess is now going to pay Jochebed to take care of. And eventually, after she has nursed the baby, she gives the baby back to the princess, who adopts the child, and she names him Moses. She says, "Because I drew him out of the water." And eventually we know God uses this Moses to deliver millions of his people out of slavery to go to the Promised Land. And he also gives this same Moses the Ten Commandments that our Western civilization, the laws that we have, are built upon.

Jennifer Rothschild: Miracle.

Nicole C. Mullen: And so it would not have happened had we not had the courage and the right decision of a mother that is an unsung hero named Jochebed, had she not had cooperation from a daughter that looked out for him, and a princess who adopted him as her own. And so this has been a part of the encouragement in my family. And I've seen the legacy of adoption played out by them, and also by me, because of also the example of a woman named Jochebed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's incredible. And, you know, when you describe that, there's moms listening, and grandmothers listening, just -- Moses' sister behaved just like the mama, with the same ingenuity and, "Hey, you need a Hebrew nursemaid? I got one." Like, that doesn't happen by accident. That's because so much of who we are is caught by our children and grandchildren. Not just taught. Taught matters too. But it's going to be caught.

Nicole C. Mullen: Caught. Absolutely. I say it all the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's a good word right there. Oh, man, Nicole. Okay. I could talk to you forever. We're going to get to our last question, though. But I know that our 4:13ers are feeling like me, so inspired and so grateful. But here's our last question.

Okay. So your personal life, you have moved from some regret, obviously, to some incredible renewal. So I want you to explain that process. Because we can hear a story and think, boom, music changes, new scene, everything's cool. Okay? So you move from regret to this beautiful sense of renewal in your life. So tell us what that process was like, and then end with giving us some hope. If someone has found themselves in a situation where, like, man, I made some bad decisions, how do I get out of it and what does that process look like for me?

Nicole C. Mullen: Okay. Well, thank you for asking that question. And I want to frame the hope before I even tell the story a little bit. Not in a person or a status -- because sometimes we can think, okay, I've been single, I've been divorced, I've been a single mom, been married again, the whole nine, and the hope is a status of X, Y, and Z. But my hope, honestly, is Christ. Because the rest is changeable. Whether it's through death, divorce, separation, whether it's through -- whatever it might be. A bad choice that was not mine to make.

And so I have gone through the peaks and the valleys, but my steady has been Christ. And so at the end of the day -- because if I give you any other hope, then you think the carrot may not be attainable for you. You may think that I can only have hope when I get whatever she has, or whatever Jennifer has, or someone else has, instead of I can have hope now, I can have victory now, I can have joy now. And I've experienced my greatest joys oftentimes in the midst of my greatest disappointments.

I am currently living in a season where I've been disappointed. I've been disappointed. But guess what? I have great hope. And not hope in what I want to happen, but I have hope in Christ. And so it's that hope that defies all other odds. It defies the enemy. It's the mantra of what I sing and I started singing 25 years ago, I know my Redeemer lives. The one who buys back my pain, my shame, and my heartache.

Because life does have peaks and valleys. Ask my mom. She was successfully married to my dad for 54 years, 5 months, and 16 days, and he went to see Jesus, you know. They had a great marriage. But things change. But her hope never changed. Her faith never changed because Christ never changed. And he is our ultimate champion.

And so I've gone through abuse, betrayal, abandonment, heartache, but I've also gone through triumph and victory and grace and peace and joy and love, success. The Lord has taken me around the world singing for him. I've met millions and millions of people that have celebrated what the Lord has done in their lives personally because of the loaves and the fish that he's multiplied through me. But it's for his glory and for our good.

And so at the end of the day, he's my champion and he is my hope. And not only mine, but he's your hope. He's your champion. He is the apex of all of our stories. And he walks us from this life to the next, and he gives us victory here before we have victory there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yep. Actually, double wow. Okay? So did you hear her powerful words, our friends? Hope is not in a status or in a person. Hope is Christ. The rest is changeable. Oh, but Jesus, he is not changeable.

KC Wright: Yes. And Nicole made sure to point out that there will be peaks and valleys, but Jesus, only Jesus, stays the same. You can have hope right now because you have Christ right now. And she said that her greatest joys are often experienced in the midst of her greatest disappointments. So true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: You need her book. Go to the Show Notes now at 413podcast.com/384 to get a copy and read the full transcript.

Plus, you need to share this, because you and I both know somebody who desperately needs to hear what Nicole shared today. So go to the Show Notes and share. Or just go to the podcast platform where you're listening right now and hit "share."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We're also going to have a link -- KC and I were just talking about this -- to this incredible -- it's almost like an oratory kind of musical drama thing she does --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Nicole does, called "The God Who Sees," that she did with Kathie Lee Gifford. Okay, it is stunning. We will have a link to that also on our Show Notes.

But when you are on your -- sorry. I should have had more coffee before we started. When you are on your podcast platform, wherever you're doing that to share, also it will be super easy for you to leave a review, so why don't you go ahead and do that.

Okay. Also, one more thing I wanted to let you know, that Nicole's book is on Audible. You heard that velvety voice -- right? -- as we just talked. Don't you want to hear that velvety voice read her book to you?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you do. So we're going to link directly to Audible also on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/384.

All right, our people, our dearly loved people, remember that Jesus is your hope. He is the apex, as Nicole said, of all of our stories. And so you can have victory here even before you have victory there. Why? Because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Also, one more last thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: What?

KC Wright: We have links to other Nicole podcasts.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do.

KC Wright: One with Jo Dee Messina spilling the beans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes. Yes.

KC Wright: So we'll link all that as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've got so much Nicole for you, you're about to have a good week, our friends.