4:13 Podcast: Can I Stop Feeling Lonely? With Alli Patterson [Episode 381]

Alli Patterson: We love to think of ourselves as, like, I get to define who I am and what I need and all the things about me, and I would just gently say, no, you don't. No, you don't. You were put together, and the very essence of what it means to be human means you were created to thrive in connection with other people. And so the question is what kind of connection do you need to experience that thriving?

Jennifer Rothschild: Despite technology that keeps us so connected, our culture is still drowning in loneliness. We're relational people. We're longing to be known and welcomed and encouraged and connected. Yet, most of us go through life lacking the key relationships that we most need to feel fulfilled.

Well, the answer to our loneliness problem is not found in the quantity of relationships, but rather in five very specific types of relationships. So do you want to know what they are? I bet you do.

Well, today, author Alli Patterson is going to tell you. She has really combed the Gospels for insights on the five relationships that were cultivated by Jesus. Oh, you're going to love it. This is fascinating and life-giving, and you are about to learn so much. So, KC, off we go.

KC Wright: Let's go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you truly can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hello, friends. We're glad you're here. KC and me are shoved in the closet. And you know what? It smells a little bit like evergreen around here --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because it is Christmastime We're so happy. This is KC's favorite time of the year. Okay, I got to say, it's mine too. But you're going to hear all about that, because, oh, my gosh, do we have the funnest Christmas episode for you next week. Okay, that's your little heads-up. We do not want you to miss it.

But anyway, if we're new and you just decided to tune in, we're so glad. Welcome to the 4:13 family. I'm Jennifer, and my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life. And that was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And if you're new, you haven't heard this. But our 4:13 family knows it well, so go ahead and say it with us. It's two friends --

Jennifer and KC: -- one topic and zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, and that's what you need this time of year.

KC Wright: And not only is it the Christmas season, I would like to wish my co-host a happy birthday.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Happy birthday to me.

Jennifer and KC: (Singing) Happy birthday to --

Jennifer Rothschild: -- me.

KC Wright: -- you.

Jennifer and KC: (Singing) Happy Birthday dear --

KC Wright: -- J.R.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Jennifer.

Jennifer and KC: (Singing) Happy birthday to --

Jennifer Rothschild: -- me.

KC Wright: -- you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: And many more.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) I'm not going to tell you how old I am.

KC Wright: (Singing) She's 28.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Plus one.

KC Wright: (Singing) And looking great for 28.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you. I am. I am looking very mature for 28, but I'm good with that.

KC Wright: J.R., you have more energy than most people I know. More than me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well...

KC Wright: You are here for such a time as this. You're preaching the Gospel from the top of the world to the bottom of the world and all the way around the world --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: -- and you're doing it in stilettos and stylish clothes and the most killer outfits and hairdo ever.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC -- okay, look at my birthday shirt I'm wearing. Can you read it? Read it out loud.

KC Wright: I have to share her birthday shirt. It says, "I like" -- I'm sorry. This is so funny. "I like coffee and maybe three people."

Jennifer Rothschild: And KC is one of them.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: In fact, you're about to hear about this, KC. That's really funny. I didn't even think about wearing this shirt today and what we're about to talk about. Because Alli's going to talk about having a core group of people, and that's like maybe two or three. So you're in my core, and I know I'm in your core.

KC Wright: I'm honored.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah, you're one of the three people I like. Actually, I like a lot more than three. So thanks for all the birthday wishes, my dear friends, and KC especially.

All right. Now, I want you to know that if the title of this podcast threw you off and you're like, well, I'm not lonely, I maybe should have retitled it, to be honest with you, because it's really more about friendship and finding the people you need. But it will alleviate that soul loneliness. So let's introduce Alli and talk about this.

KC Wright: Alli Patterson is passionate about helping others know Jesus and build a life on the firm foundation of His Word. She holds a master's degree in biblical studies from Dallas Theological Seminary and teaches Scripture at Crossroads Church. She's the author of "How to Stay Standing." Alli lives with her husband, Bill, their four children, and one very bratty cat.

All right, 4:13ers, here is the birthday girl and Alli.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Alli. I am so glad you're back with us again. And we're talking about your new book, and it is called "Blueprint for Belonging." So in your book -- let's just start with this -- you write that the design of your relational world matters more to the thriving of your life than any other single factor. Now, that's interesting. Because a lot of us would think, well, no, it's got to be, you know, if I just eat less sugar or if I have better work-life balance or if I get a vacation.

So tell us why the relationships are -- why are they so crucial?

Alli Patterson: I think it goes back to how God designed us as human beings. And from the very beginning we are designed by a relational God in relationship. And so when I look at how we put our relational worlds together, you know, everything from friends to family to coworkers to strangers, most of us do that haphazardly and so we don't experience the thriving life of actually living out a design.

We more do some of the parts well and some of them not well depending on who we are and what relationships we've collected over time. And sometimes they end up really good in some ways, and sometimes they end up really bad. But most people I know don't actually think of their relationships as having any sort of design.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah. As you say that, I kind of did a quick run-through of all the people in my world, and I thought, yeah, some of them are there just because of proximity, or it's just a passive, you know, so okay. And then, of course, we can't choose our family. But, yeah, then there are other relationships that I realize I have been strategic about, but those are the minority.

And so I think it's -- I want to get in a little bit to this actual blueprint, because we need to understand this. But I think it's good for us just to start with that paradigm, like, just to think through that.

But then also recognize that probably one of the manifestations that this is our situation is loneliness. And you deal with this in your book because you talk about what a huge issue it is today, like epidemic kind of proportions. So what does this say about us as a people?

Alli Patterson: Yes. I mean, I think we've all caught the buzzword of loneliness, I guess, if you will. We've seen headlines about it, we understand that we're worried about it for our younger generation, our teens or our early 20s that are growing up and doing a lot more relational connection online.

So we're responding to the output of not understanding God's design for our relational world. We see it and we feel it, but we just don't ask the question that goes underneath it, which is, is there a design that I don't understand or that I'm not living into that could produce a different result? Nobody wants to end up in a place where themselves or somebody they love are experiencing different kinds of loneliness, but you and I could use that word and we mean very different things by it.

So one of the things I explore deeply in the book is, hey, what if -- what if there was a design that God intended us to -- he actually created us to embody as we live out our relational world, if you will? And what if our loneliness and how we experience loneliness and when and with whom and in what situations, what if that was a clue to some holes in our design, in the blueprint, if you will.

And so that's what I really explore in the book, because loneliness can actually indicate a lot of different things depending on how you experience it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is really good. And by the way, I know that our listeners right now are wanting to ask, just as I am, okay, let's talk about the blueprint, let's talk about the holes. But I don't want us to --

Alli Patterson: Okay, let's do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I want to keep building the case. Let's build the case a little more.

Alli Patterson: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I really want to dig deep into this loneliness thing, because you're right, we have different perceptions, therefore different definitions.

Alli Patterson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But at what point -- I mean, is there a universal thing here with certain points in life that we are most vulnerable, that we might all have in common to loneliness?

Alli Patterson: Oh, certainly. Certainly. I think as I talk to lots of people, and even read the life of Jesus through the Gospels -- which, you know, I talk about at great deal through the book -- I think there's some very obvious points where we're much more prone to notice. I'll throw one out for myself.

I think when I had a child, when I had my very first child, and my whole relational world shifted because the center of it was previously my work. So a lot of my relationships were happening in the workplace. And then when I was gone from the workplace for an extended period of time, I noticed a loneliness that went along with that life change.

So, yes, there are points in time that -- I think college is a huge one. I've been talking about this book, like, 18- to 24-year-olds that are sort of college age. 'Cause think about what happens in college. You leave whatever relational network you build -- for some of us that's a good thing, for some of us that's a terrible thing -- and you're thrust into a new environment where you have to rebuild it. And then four years later, or ish, it's gone again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Alli Patterson: And so you move or you get a job or your best friend goes back home or whatever, and all of a sudden you feel all those holes from whatever you had built over the last handful of years. So, yes, lots of particular points in our life where our relationships just shift because of our circumstances. And that's a great time to see, well, what was I building?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Alli Patterson: And how was I building it? Because now I'm feeling the pain of that. And so I think a lot of times God uses pain points in all kinds of different ways to point us back to him, and I think loneliness is no different.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. You're absolutely right. I agree with you.

And, you know, as I hear you describe this too, Alli, I think sometimes we just think loneliness is physical. You know, a single woman who's lost her husband lives alone now, she is lonely, as if that is the only formula for loneliness.

Alli Patterson: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I think we've all experienced -- there can be intellectual loneliness, there can be emotional loneliness --

Alli Patterson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- spiritual, physical. And so that leads me to this question. So let's talk about the connection between our relationships and the health of our whole souls.

Alli Patterson: Yes. I believe that we are -- our very essence, our being as a human created by God -- that's my strong conviction, that, you know, we were literally knit together by a God who knows exactly how our life is supposed to work, and that our thriving as a human depends upon our connections to other people because that's how God designed it.

You know, when I hear people say things like, "I just don't need that kind of relationship in my life," we have different bandwidth. I might need deeper connection in a certain area because of the life that I'm living or the choices that I've made or whatever. But we don't have the option --

I think, you know, we love to think of ourselves as, like, I get to define who I am and what I need and all the things about me. And I would just gently say, no, you don't. No, you don't. You were put together, and the very essence of what it means to be human means you were created to thrive in connection with other people. And so the question is, what kind of connection do you need to experience that thriving?

And that's really what I looked at in the life of Jesus, because I -- when I have a question that kind of goes back to, let's say, Genesis 1 through 3, like, how were we made, God, and what happened here, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Alli Patterson: Usually the life of Jesus is a really good place to start, because he came and lived a human life as God. And so then I went digging into his life. Actually, it was funny how I started this little quest, because I didn't really do it on purpose. I just felt like as I was reading the Gospels -- I was in a reading plan where I would read from all four Gospels every single day for a while. And that just happened to be the reading plan that I was following at the time. But what I started to notice is patterns in how Jesus was interacting with all kinds of different people.

And because I was reading a lot of them in a row, I started making notes on the different ways, the different people, and I would think, ooh, that interaction kind of reminded me of another interaction, and I would bucket them. So I started thinking much more about -- and much more deeply about Jesus' network of relationships and is there a design that I'm seeing. And I was, like, sniffing it out, going like, I think there is. Am I crazy? I think there is. And that's really why I mapped out the blueprint, because that's what I was seeing in his life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. I love that. And, of course, everything we need -- you just proved it again -- can be found in him. Like, everything.

Alli Patterson: Totally.

Jennifer Rothschild: Everything. And we are made for this belonging, so -- first of all, I was a psych major, so I know this whole attachment and belonging, these five basic needs that we -- these needs of belonging we have. Okay. So I think that's fascinating. And you know what, Alli? I was just thinking, literally, as you were saying something. I was recently studying the Lord's Prayer again. We're so familiar with it that sometimes we overlook. There's not a singular pronoun in there. It's all about us, our daily bread, our Father, give us this day. It's about us. Because we do, we thrive in community.

Alli Patterson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So here's my curiosity then. Okay. Since we all have this basic need to belong, I am curious if after you've studied this and really dived in, do you think most people have an awareness? Do you think they realize how deeply motivated they are by getting this need met? And so if so or if not, how does it show up? How are people handling this need, or mishandling it?

Alli Patterson: Yeah. I think -- first of all, I think we do not always understand why we are drawn toward or repelled by different kinds of relationship. I think we might notice that we are or aren't, you know, in a certain kind of relationship or have a certain kind of relationship in our life, but I'm not sure we always have the self-awareness to understand why, like, what's really going on there.

So I think if we're honest with ourselves, if we've lived a little bit, maybe beyond 18 years on this earth, we do start to notice that we ourselves have patterns, and some of them are helpful and some of them very unhelpful when it comes to relationships. I just don't know that we ever think that maybe we could know a design that would help us to adjust.

And as I look at the life of Jesus -- if you think about your own relationship world, like, all the people in it, what if you -- like, I started thinking what if I laid Jesus' over top of mine, where would there be differences? Like, do I have a lot more people in one place, and he only has a few? And do I have one, or am I empty in a place where he's actually interacting quite a bit?

You know, so that's the sort of comparison that started to bring me life. And it actually helped me make sense of a pattern that I'd noticed in my own life, but I didn't know what it was. You know, I didn't have the right language for it, but I'd noticed it. And so when I saw it in his life, I went, oh, okay, this is helping me. And so I think genuinely, because it was helping me understand, I thought, I'm going to write this down. I'm going to start writing out what I think God is showing me in the life of Christ here, because I think it might help us.

And so that's really where the book was born. But that's the intent, is like, hey, take a look at Jesus' and lay yours on top of it. And what would you see if you did that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Then let's give us a brief snapshot. Because we're moving into Jesus and we're moving into the blueprint.

Alli Patterson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how did Jesus do relationships? Like, what are some of the most obvious takeaways of how he did relationships? When you were reading through all the Gospels and you started putting all these similarities down, what'd you find?

Alli Patterson: Okay. So I'll start from probably the most obvious, which is the -- Jesus had a circle. His most obvious realm of relationship is his disciples. And I would call that -- on the blueprint, I called that his circle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Alli Patterson: Okay. And if you were a psych person, maybe you've come across the same research I found, which is interestingly that human -- like, our exploration of human psychology would tell us we are built for roughly 15 -- no more than 15 relationships that are decently close in our life. And, wow, here we have Jesus with 12 disciples. And so that's his most obvious. As you read the Gospels, you can't read the Gospels and not see that.

And I thought it was really interesting. I found all this sociological research that told me similarly, human beings are -- we don't have the capacity to maintain more than roughly 15 -- I would say these are your people, your friends, the people that you are regularly rhythmically seeing and living your life around that know you and you know them. And we have a threshold. And lo and behold, that's roughly the number of people that you see Jesus traveling, living, doing life with. Isn't that fascinating?

Jennifer Rothschild: Amazing. Yes. And why are we not surprised, right? It's amazing.

Alli Patterson: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Alli Patterson: So then I would say -- gosh, I started with circle because it was the most obvious, so I'll drill down one more, because I think people kind of do a head nod to this one. There's core relationships. These are like your unconditional few. I would say one to three is probably our capacity to carry core relationships like this.

If you're married, your spouse is in here. You might have a close family member, you might have a long-time best friend. These relationships do not change much. These are the ones that maybe aren't even bound by geography. A lot of times you can -- they're so unconditionally loving and lasting that they can withstand change in time and even geography.

And so a lot of times this is a head nod for people, because you know nobody's got capacity for more than one or two of these, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Alli Patterson: You're so deeply connected that it takes a lot of you to even maintain this space in somebody else's life, because it truly is this -- it's meant to be how we experience, with human flesh on, this unconditional love that God has for us. And so these people represent that to us, and I think most people do a head nod to that. Most people are like, yeah, I could name my couple, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Alli Patterson: And you brought up the case a minute ago of a woman who does not have a spouse, or maybe lost a spouse I think you referenced. When you're lonely in this place, this is deep aching loss. When someone dies, someone betrays you in this space, it changes you, because these are the people that that's not supposed to happen with.

And so I would -- as I talk to a group of about 30 people that I explored these concepts with for the book, boy, I mean, the tears are right there. If you've experienced a damaged -- a hole in your blueprint, if you will, in this area, you feel that a decade later, maybe more than that. It's very, very difficult to withstand that, and the reason is because we are meant to experience God's unconditional love and commitment to us with these people.

And so part of his provision for our love and care is your core people. You know, they provide a special thing. That's your core in your circle. Those are your closer-in relationships. And I think those are kind of the more obvious ones to see in the life of Jesus. If you read the Gospels, he continually calls out Peter, James, and John. And I would argue that that was his core for his adult life of ministry that we have a good record of.

And you see him do different things. In the core chapter in the book, I go through some of the things that he allowed them to experience with him, that he didn't allow for even his other disciples. And the transfiguration is a great example of that. They literally got to see a part of his divinity that none of the other disciples were allowed to see.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yeah.

Alli Patterson: So as you think about your core relationships in your life, you reveal yourself, and they reveal themselves to you in a way that is very unique. And again, I think people kind of go, yeah, right. And I can't do that -- yeah, I can't do that with other people because it's either not safe or we don't know each other or I don't trust them that much or whatever. And I think you see those in his life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Are those the only two parts of the blueprint? Because I literally just got a copy of the book, so I have not been able to go through the whole thing.

Alli Patterson: Okay. No. So there's --

Jennifer Rothschild: So are those the two main parts?

Alli Patterson: No. I'll give you three more, and then you can tell me which ones you want to jump into.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I love this. I'm loving this, by the way.

Alli Patterson: Great. Well, my favorite realm is comrades.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Alli Patterson: It goes -- they're the next realm beyond the circle, so these comrades can be pretty big. I wouldn't say there's necessarily a number limit to comrades, but rather the definition of a comrade is someone that you are on mission with. Maybe you're a young mom and you're raising babies together. That is a mission, and you share it. So you have a comrade that -- that's a comrade in your life.

So as Christ followers -- and in the life of Jesus, we see the people that he shared the spreading of the Kingdom with. The people that understood his mission, they were deeply connected in some very interesting missional ways. And my guess is you've been doing ministry long enough to have lots of Kingdom comrades. That you're not living your life around these people every day, but you are very aware that you're on the same mission and you could partner up and move out together and really do some interesting things together. So these are comrades that -- and I love this realm, because I think that the more you know your own mission, the sharper and more impactful this realm is in your life. So I love this realm, and I love to talk about it in the life of Jesus too.

But beyond that, then you have his community, which I would say is a mixed network of all the relationships that you have picked up over your life that are not strategic. But they might be very good. They could be good, they could be bad; they could be past, they could be present. These are the people that you have picked up as you've just lived your story. Co-workers, neighbors, old friends. Maybe you have a high school friend you would put in this realm and -- non-strategic relationships that are a mixed network.

And then the last one, the most -- the furthest out is the crowds. And this is another one I love to talk about, because I think we are losing this realm in our modern life. And you see Jesus was extremely intentional about going on purpose into the crowds. And so in the book I really explore what is this realm and why did Jesus bother with it? What is our modern world creating for us in terms of -- crowds are sort of disappearing because they're increasingly online where we can cultivate a crowd to be exactly what we want it to be, and as soon as we do that, it ceases to be a crowd.

So it's interesting to watch Jesus walk into a crowd. And every single time he does a similar thing. And it really convicted me in my life, like, oh, this is important to God. If I have my head in my phone every time I walk into a space where I don't know people, I'm missing a piece of how God wants to operate relationally in my world. Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, wow.

Alli Patterson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So as I hear you explain that, which I love, by the way -- and I love the alliteration. It makes it easier to remember. Thank you.

Alli Patterson: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Community. Community sounds like to me almost like all the contacts in my phone, like, that I've accumulated over the years.

Alli Patterson: Yeah, it is sort of like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right.

Alli Patterson: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, the crowd -- so if I'm going into a crowd, it's just basically -- it could be a group of strangers, and it could be people I'm not used to doing life with. How did Jesus respond to crowds?

Alli Patterson: Okay. So I love this. When you watch Jesus interact in the crowd, he doesn't necessarily have anything decided beyond one thing. He walks into a crowd and he watches for where his Father shows him movement. Maybe somebody comes out of the crowd and asks him a question. Maybe somebody yells his name. Maybe the crowd gets nasty with him, you know, and starts to threaten him or pushes against him. And so you watch him walk into a crowd, and he is watching for where his Father is at work. What will God do in this crowd? And he goes in eyes open, head up, and he engages where he sees movement.

And many times I think I'm guilty of the thing where I go, like, I'm busy with my own life, I'm much more interested in what's on my phone and whether I can pay a bill or send one of my kids' teachers an email while I'm standing in line than I am about the physical human beings that I'm literally in proximity to at that very moment. And oftentimes we pay no attention to the thing that's the most important to God in a room, which is always the people.

And so we walk in and we're like, I'm not interested in these people. And Jesus never, never does that. He walks into a crowd and just watches what's going to happen here and what does that mean for the work of the Kingdom. And I found that very convicting, but also very energizing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Very invitational.

Alli Patterson: Yes, it's so invitational. Because one of the things that I talk about in the book is how our lives get kind of stale when we just -- we know exactly who we're going to encounter, exactly what's going to happen. This is part of how God intercepts our life in really adventurous ways. You could meet someone that God literally sends you in a crowd. You see that several times in the life of Jesus, where God intercepts people in a crowd and their entire world changes from there on out. And I just think what an exciting invitation to participate in the Kingdom of God, you know, if I'll just get my head out of my phone, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, big time. Or, you know, sometimes the opposite extreme of that, of staying isolated and alone in a crowd, is walking into a crowd with, here I am, the ambassador. Let my light shine. I'm going to present the Gospel to the first five people I see whether they want me to or not. You know what I mean?

Alli Patterson: That's exactly right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You could come in to the crowd with an agenda. And if anybody had reason to have an agenda, it would be Christ, and he did not model that.

Alli Patterson: No, he did not.

Jennifer Rothschild: He watched to see where is my Father working so I can join in?

Alli Patterson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. That is an invitation. I love that, Alli.

Alli Patterson: Yes. And it's so hopeful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Big time.

Alli Patterson: Like, we're meant to wake up and go, like, my life could matter today. And this is the invitation into the crowd, you know. And so I think that's incredibly generous of God, because he doesn't need to invite you into what he's up to, but he does.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Oh, yes, he does.

Alli Patterson: And so I see that. I love that realm for that reason.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is really good, and very -- it really is. And so you mentioned something a few minutes ago, and I want to circle back to it.

Alli Patterson: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I'm sure we're all feeling this kind of inspiration. But you mentioned just kind of as a throw-away statement that we have holes in our blueprint sometimes. So I want to know, like, how do we figure those out? How do we diagnose our holes in our blueprint?

Alli Patterson: Yeah. So as we read the life of Christ, which hopefully in the book I've helped you to do, but you could just read the Gospels and start asking this question for yourself as well. You know, of course, I'm trying to be helpful by putting it all together for you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Alli Patterson: -- but I think the Lord would also gladly show it to you in the Gospels. And so as you read the life of Jesus and start to ask yourself what feels different about how I've put my relationships together? Because most of us, again, back to the beginning, have not done it on purpose.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Alli Patterson: So where I think that we can start is just by saying, okay, something super simple like Jesus had three men that he regularly treated as his core. He called them out as different, he disclosed things to them, he trusted them in ways that were unique. How many do I have and what do my relationships look like? And really just begin to truly be honest with ourselves. And as we do that overlay, be willing to invest or even back off of investment in certain places where our relationships are looking a lot different than Jesus.

One of the things that I've talked to college students about uniquely is they -- because of the online environment that encourages a lot of self-disclosure online -- you know, you get more clicks, more followers, more friends if you reveal parts of yourself. And one of the things that I talk to college students about a lot is putting the appropriate amount of weight and investment in the right place on the blueprint. So, for instance, you don't give that unique trust and self-disclosure that you would offer to your core, you don't put that on your Instagram account.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh, no.

Alli Patterson: 'Cause guess what that's going to lead to? It's going to lead to exactly what our students are experiencing, which is a lack of relational return that satisfies their soul.

So they go looking for that in the wrong place and they're like ... But I have this instinct to build relationship, but I'm trying to do it in the wrong place or with the wrong people because I've never asked the question where does that kind of relationship actually get built? Is it in my Instagram account or is it face to face with one or two people? And the world is teaching us a way to build relationships that is nothing like what you see in the life of Jesus. Nothing like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Of course it is, because the world's always offering a counterfeit to that which is Christ.

Alli Patterson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I would be curious, then -- because some of what you just described -- I know you mention counterfeit relationships in the book. How do we know what those are? Is what you just described how we would figure that out? Or what do you mean by that?

Alli Patterson: Well, counterfeits are really interesting. You know, Jesus has some in his life that look like, from the outside, they should have worked. The pharisees are a great example of that. Jesus actually had a similar zeal for the law. You know, like, he fulfilled it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Alli Patterson: You know, there was nothing about him that was against what they believed. So he should have had a fruitful relationship with these people that he shared a passion, and yet it was continually coming up empty. So in the book we talk about relationships that are counterfeit being ones that look like they should be producing fruit, but are deeply unsatisfying. That instead of filling us, somehow we walk away and we think -- we feel disoriented, almost like, wait. I expected us to be able to connect, but it always feels like I'm empty as a result.

And so as you look for counterfeits in your life, there's some -- three or four things that I suggest in the chapter, like, for instance, people who want a payoff for their connection with you. They're always asking for whatever it is that you have to give. And they kind of out themselves over time, and if you don't give that, they drift off. You know, they're not committed to you for you, they want a payoff. That's a classic sign of a counterfeit relationship.

And sometimes we're guilty of this as well. I was thinking about this and encourage this in the book, like, ooh, ouch, you know. Like, do I talk to that person because they have a vacation house they invite me to?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right.

Alli Patterson: Oh, ouch. Oh, no. And, you know, we can slip into this with certain kinds of relationships that we want the payoff from. And I think the thing about carrying these in our life is it takes up the room that -- again, we are a limited being relationally. We do not have unlimited capacity. So when you drag along these counterfeits, you end up more and more dissatisfied over time because they're taking up space in your relationship world that you could have real thriving connection in.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that is such a good and simple -- and simple does not mean it's not a complex, deep subject. But that is a very simple way to think about that, Alli. Because if you gave me a counterfeit dollar, it would be worthless. It would be worthless.

Alli Patterson: Totally worthless.

Jennifer Rothschild: And when you think about it, that's kind of what the relationship becomes, yet it's not --it pulls from us. This is so good.

Okay, I'm going to ask you two more questions. Because I'm hearing this thinking -- number one, my people, let's remember, this is not about them, this is about us. Okay? It's always -- we always --

Alli Patterson: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? It's how can I be this friend? Right, how can I be this...

And so I'm thinking about the person who's like, well, okay, that's beautiful. And I'm so inspired, but I get, you know, sick at my stomach if I think of having to go to a crowd or introduce myself to a person. I am such an introvert, I don't know what to talk about, fill in the blank. How do you coach an introvert in this area, who -- they know they are inherently lonely, and they know part of it is because they just can't get over the speed bump of their own introversion?

Alli Patterson: Yeah. I would say we all have a tendency -- first of all, grace to you. We all have parts of the blueprint that are natural for us, where we thrive. I would venture a guess that, you know, your most introverted friend might have the most well-developed core. And if you're a high extrovert -- like, one of my four kids is like a 12 out of 10 extrovert. And she's amazing in a crowd, she does community great. She's the glue in every room. You want her around in those spaces. But she would struggle to name her special few and why they're different.

So I think we all have a couple of realms of the blueprint where we're really like -- we're just wired for it. You know what I mean?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Alli Patterson: And so I would say, totally bless you in that space and you work it. Just know that that's your sweet spot. And also I think what I do with this is I go to Jesus, and I know there are times and moments and seasons that he kind of ordains for me to develop the other ones. And I think we make a mistake when we turn this into a checklist and we go like, oh, yeah, I really stink at the crowd because I'm freaked out by it, and I have social anxiety and all the stuff, and so I better -- every time I walk in the crowd, I better -- like, one, two, three, you know. I got to get better at this, you know.

And I can be like that because I so want to do the right thing, and I think sometimes we accidentally get religious with it and we turn it into, like, our to-do list. And instead, I would encourage that person to go, like, Okay, Lord, I'm seeing this. What do you have for me here? Like, is there one small way that I could begin to develop? For me, it's my circle. That's the one I got, like, very heavily convicted by. And I don't have a well-developed circle for some very clear reasons, and I just felt God asking me to start running with people again. Because I'm a runner.

Jennifer Rothschild: I was going to say, you mean literally running? Yeah.

Alli Patterson: Literally running. I'm a runner. And so a lot of times I'll run by myself because it's more efficient, I can do it real quick. I can exercise and get the heck in the shower. And just a gentle encouragement to start running with people again.

And when -- those are, like, the small ways that God can sort of clue us in to this is a long-term endeavor. And if I start running with people again, we're going to talk, we're going to meet up regularly. Guess what? That's a really good way to develop a circle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is.

Alli Patterson: And so sometimes he just has that one little thing for you and you're like, okay, I can't do it all, but I could maybe do that. I could do that one thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. That's good.

Alli Patterson: And so I think he's super kind with us and knows us inside and out and is like, you know, I'm going to just nudge you in this direction of life. Because that's the thing, the blueprint is life for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is, it's life.

Alli Patterson: And he wants that. Like, he wants more life for you. And so he'll have a little -- he'll have a nudge, he'll have something in front of you for this season, I just -- I know it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I agree. Well, and I'll just say, Alli, I was about to volunteer for your circle until you said it involved running. And, sorry, I'm out.

Alli Patterson: You know what? We can walk or hike too. I love both of those.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, we can walk. I could be in your -- I could do that.

Alli Patterson: Okay, great. I like to walk too.

Jennifer Rothschild: We would all love to have you in our circle as we hear this conversation.

Okay, and so let's get to our last question then. At risk of sounding like there's a formula or a religious legalistic to-do -- I still want to stay practical. Okay?

Alli Patterson: Yes. Totally.

Jennifer Rothschild: What are some very practical steps that each of us can take today to help begin this redesigning of our relational blueprint so that we can get it right? Like, we want to have this satisfaction you're talking about. So give us a couple things we can do even now.

Alli Patterson: Okay. So number one, ask yourself -- and I'm going to guess a lot of your listeners can answer this quickly, but that's where the whole book pushes, is at the very center of your blueprint has to be a relationship with Jesus. And so the first question I would ask yourself is, do I have a thriving relationship with Jesus?

If the answer to that is no, we will go try to find that in all these other relationships, and we will mess them all up. And he belongs at the very center so he can do some things in that space so we don't go looking for people to be what only he can be for us. So that truly has to be the very, very center or we will always live dysfunction in every other part of the diagram.

Beyond that, I think before you even crack the book or think about the blueprint, I would ask yourself the second question of what's the last time I experienced a wave of loneliness? And I do think it kind of hits us in a wave. And usually we can pinpoint something or we have a memory of like, man, I felt lonely in that place. For me, it was, like, in a room with a lot of people around me. I wasn't alone. And it was a very interesting memory for me to start asking questions. Why there?

And so that can usually lead you to a part of the blueprint that's off. So if you ask that question and genuinely ask the Holy Spirit, Can you help me remember what's the last time I felt that kind of -- that achy, that wave of loneliness, and just ask him to bring that to mind, it will almost certainly coincide with a hole in your blueprint.

KC Wright: First question, ask yourself, do I have a relationship with Christ? Is he center? If not, you will try to find other relationships to fill that place only he can fill. Ooh, so good. That's what I call an ouch hallelujah. Take an inventory right there. Okay?

Then her second question, when was the last time I experienced loneliness? Consider why then, why there. The answer to that will expose the place where potentially you have a hole in your blueprint.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, wasn't that good?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I thought that was really good.

KC Wright: Seriously, such good stuff today. And here's why it's so good. We can all relate.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, seriously.

KC Wright: We need this book. I do, I need this book. You do. All God's children do. Okay? And we're giving one away at Jennifer's Instagram, which is always filled with so much positive daily encouragement. You need to really follow Jenn there. But also follow her to win the book, right? Go to @jennrothschild. Or you can go to the Show Notes to buy it and to read a transcript of this entire conversation. Show Notes are simply at 413podcast.com/381.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was good, KC. I thought this was -- it gave us all a chance to kind of just sit down with our own souls and think about some things.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I loved that. I appreciate it so much. But I got to say, KC, you are definitely in my circle.

KC Wright: You're in my circle. You're in my --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, here's the thing. I would let you in my core, but you're just too loud. I'm just kidding. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You are in my core. You are. You are. I trust you 100%. You are definitely in my core. If we can spend this much time in the closet together --

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- we're definitely in our core, in each other's core.

All right, our friends, we want you to find your people also. And you can, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: Hey, seriously, on your iPhone, you know, you have this little thing at the top, you have your top people --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's true.

KC Wright: -- you know, that you can pin to the top. You're in my top. Right there. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: That means a lot.

KC Wright: I know you're busy, but I daily want to send you audio messages --

Jennifer Rothschild: You should.

KC Wright: -- of crazy show prep things like --

Jennifer Rothschild: You should.

KC Wright: -- the possum in the trash can. But I know you have a life and you have things to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you're comic relief to me. Speaking of comic relief, y'all, don't miss our Christmas card to you next week.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's really fun.

KC Wright: It's gonna be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, we'll see you next week. Merry Christmas.

KC Wright: Merry Christmas.