Can I Choose Community Over Self Reliance? With Heather MacFadyen [Episode 191]

Choose Community Over Self Reliance Heather MacFadyen

We need each other! None of us are designed to do this life alone … without support, without community. But sometimes we just don’t know how to get over our self-reliance and get honest with others.

So, today on the 4:13 Podcast, we’re going to learn from author and podcast host, Heather MacFadyen, about how to not mom alone. But her insight isn’t just for moms! This applies to whoever you are and whatever you do.

Heather will dive into the importance of community, even when community doesn’t come naturally, and you’ll get tips on how to grow authentic friendships as an adult. Plus, she’ll debunk the myth that there’s a “good mom” formula. There’s not, my friend, and some of you need to hear that.

Our attempt to even look for a formula goes against God’s intentions because He desires for us to depend on Him. Have you ever considered that? The search for a formula only fuels the illusion that we can be independent of God and others.

So, it’s time to reel in our self-reliance as we talk about Heather’s book, Don’t Mom Alone: Growing the Relationships You Need to Be the Mom You Want to Be. She’ll help you see that God intends for each of us to be in community with each other.

Then why do we struggle to find community, or why do we feel we don’t need it?

Well, our natural instinct is to never put ourselves in a position to be wounded, so we protect ourselves by separating from others. But we are wired for growth in community, not in isolation.

Heather says, “I need to work on myself, but when I do it in community, it goes farther and deeper.” And she’s right! We are better together.

We’re not in community for comparison or competition—for feeling less than or better than someone else. We’re in community for wisdom, fellowship, to carry each others’ burdens, and to build each other up, recognizing that we’re each uniquely different but also share commonalities that we can learn from. This is the blessing of co-laboring together!

And these are just some of the benefits of being part of a community! You’ll hear Heather draw out several others in this conversation, as well as answer questions you may have, including:

  • I’m surrounded by community, but is it possible that I’m not tapping into it?
  • What’s keeping me from being vulnerable with others?
  • How would humility help me fight against self-reliance?
  • Can the bad things I’m avoiding actually result in good things from God?
  • How does comparing myself to others perpetuate isolation and self-reliance?
  • I desperately need community, so what’s the first step I can take?

Choosing community isn’t always easy; it can actually be really scary for some. So I encourage you to start small. Pick just one person and make the call or send the text. Be brave, sister, and you’ll be blessed!

You can choose community over self-reliance, and you can trust God in being vulnerable with others because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength.

Meet Heather MacFadyen

Heather wrote online before Facebook was even a thing. After years of blog entries, she launched a trailblazing podcast called God Centered Mom in 2013. Then in 2018, the show rebranded to the Don’t Mom Alone podcast. Now with over fourteen million downloads, Heather’s weekly interviews have been heard in every country on the planet. When she’s not recording conversations in her messy closet, she’s driving in Dallas traffic, feeding four growing boys, and hanging out with her hubby, Bruce.

[Listen to the podcast using the player above, or read the transcript below. Then check out the links below for more helpful resources.]

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Episode Transcript

4:13 Podcast: Can I Choose Community Over Self Reliance? With Heather MacFadyen [Episode 191]

Heather MacFadyen: Yeah, I think that was one of the things that kept me from community, was this feeling like out there somewhere there was this formula for a good outcome, an adult child who's walking with the Lord, who's functioning well, and I was somehow missing that formula. And maybe it was one more book I needed to read, or maybe it was a podcast, now we would say, that I need to listen to.

Jennifer Rothschild: We need each other. None of us are designed to do this life alone without support, without community. But sometimes, let's be honest, we just don't know how to get over our own self-reliance and get honest with others. So today we're going to learn from author and podcast host Heather MacFadyen how to not mom alone. But her insight, it is not just for moms. In fact, we talk a lot more about just being human than being a mom. This is going to apply to whoever you are and whatever you do. She's going to dive into the essential nature of community and nudge you toward it, even when community may not feel natural to you. And you're going to get tips on how to grow authentic friendships as an adult. Plus, one more thing, she is going to debunk the myth that there is a good mom formula. My friend, there is not, and you need to hear about that.

So, K.C., queue the intro. Here we come.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. And now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, there, our people. We are so happy you're here today. Jennifer Rothschild here. You know my goal by now. It's just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. So if you've been hanging out with us for a while, you know that's my seeing eye guy, K.C. Wright.

K.C. Wright: Hey, hey.

Jennifer Rothschild: Can I just say, it's hard to spend so much time with someone who's always right.

K.C. Wright: Oh, yeah, sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm married to someone who's always right and then I'm a podcast host with someone who's always right.

K.C. Wright: Fake news. It's only a name.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's only a name. Well, and here's the thing. I'm always right. So really there's just a lot of rightness going on here.

Anyway, we are so happy that you came.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And thanks for your great -- oh, my gosh, you guys have been giving us great reviews.

K.C. Wright: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: We notice them. We're so thankful.

And I'm happy you're here too, because I have met a new friend, Heather MacFadyen, and I really like her. Before you even get to hear her when this conversation starts, you don't even realize that she and I probably talked for ten minutes about this, that, and nothing like we had known each other forever. She's just so likable. I really enjoyed her. But one of the things we talked about, K.C., was tea, hot tea.

K.C. Wright: Oh, that's your love language right there.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love hot tea. Now, here's why we talked about it. So even though y'all are listening to this -- and hopefully it is spring where you are -- we're recording this a little early, so it's cold outside. And part of the reason we're doing this -- heads-up -- is because I am filming a Bible study video on the Book of Amos called "An Invitation to the Good Life," and so I was trying to get a couple of podcasts recorded early. So it feels weird that you're listening to it when hopefully it's warm outside. But it was cold when Heather and I talked and when K.C. and I are doing this. So we were talking about tea. And the tea that I was drinking as she and I talked was by Harney & Sons, and it's a cinnamon spice tea.

K.C. Wright: Oooo.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, y'all, is so good. But she and I even talked about how important it is that you drink the sachet, not the bag. The sachets, they filter better and taste better. This is my kind of girl. Okay. So anyway, I'll have a link to it on the show notes.

But she told me about something that is really neat that y'all need to know about. Starbucks has what they call a Medicine Ball. Have you ever heard of that K.C.?

K.C. Wright: I have never heard of this. And I'm going to go get one today just for kicks and giggles.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So, now, I'm not sure they -- now, you could say -- 'cause I asked her this. I said, "Is that on the menu?" She said, "I don't think it's called Medicine Ball on the menu, but that's what everyone calls it." So, like, you could go to a barista and say, "I want a Medicine Ball," and they would know what you're talking about. But it's a hot tea. And I think it's maybe like orange or peach, and it has some mint and honey. But it's supposed to be just really soothing and --

K.C. Wright: I'll take it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Doesn't that sound good?

K.C. Wright: Oh, I'm all about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's a green tea. Anyway. So I have not tried a Medicine Ball yet, but that is also on my wish list. So for your tea, our 4:13ers, just in the spirit of this conversation, and let's meet Heather.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, Heather MacFadyen wrote online before Facebook was even a thing. After years of blog entries, in 2013 she launched a trailblazing podcast called God Centered Mom. In 2018, the show rebranded to the Don't Mom Alone Podcast with over -- get this -- 14 million downloads.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's because it's so good.

K.C. Wright: Heather's weekly interviews have been heard in every country on the planet. When she's not recording conversations in her messy closet, she's driving in Dallas traffic, feeding four growing boys, or hanging out with her hubby, Bruce. So settle in, my friends, there's room at the table for you. Let's listen in for Jennifer and Heather.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Heather, you are a self-proclaimed do-it-yourselfer. But you've got this podcast and now a book called "Don't Mom Alone," so obviously you had a shift in this mentality. Or maybe. So I'm curious, have you overcome that level of self-reliance? And if you did, how did you do that and get involved in the community and get, you know, leaning on them for some help?

Heather MacFadyen: You know, I think everyone has a line where the limits of your self-reliance get hit, where you hit the bottom of your abilities to do everything yourself. And it was by the time I was married and had four young boys that I had found myself -- even though there was community all around me -- we'd been a part of a Sunday school class, I had hosted the play groups, I had lots of mom friends, I had mentors, but I wasn't tapping into that community. I wasn't actually sharing what was hard, I wasn't asking them to be a part of my everyday. I just kept it all nice and tight close to me so that no one would see where I had challenges and where I wasn't doing well and maybe didn't look like a, quote/unquote, good mom. My kids maybe fought or did embarrassing things, and I wasn't okay with them not being okay. And so thankfully, I -- well, not thankfully. I did hit a real rock bottom and an anxiety, panic attack, depression. But I'm thankful that a friend saw me at church and recognized that I didn't look like myself -- and she had been there herself as a mom of four boys -- and said something.

And then I knew another friend who'd been brave enough to tell me about her therapist, and I reached out to that friend for a phone number and actually made the phone call and scheduled my first professional therapy session. And then from there just -- we went through a 12-step recovery program with our small group. I've walked through some inner healing prayer meetings that I was the participant, and then I was trained to actually lead several of those. And so just some mental health help and some supernatural spiritual help to heal up my whys, why was I isolating. So that was helpful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that leads me to this next question, Heather, because as I'm listening to you, I identify. Of course, now my children have flown the nest, but you don't forget those deep anxieties or -- and sometimes it's shame, you know. So I'm curious, in your opinion what is it that you think might hold women back? Because you're not the only one, you know, that is like this or has been like this. So what holds us back from being vulnerable and honest with each other?

Heather MacFadyen: When I was thinking about this book, I actually approached it that way. What were the different things that helped -- that kept me. And then I asked my listeners and the community that we have grown, and the different answers helped shape the chapters, whether it's a belief about themselves and their full responsibility for how their kids turn out, whether it's not being able to trust people because of past friendship wounds. Maybe it's a challenge in your marriage that you aren't even inviting your spouse into co-parenting with you and you're taking all of that responsibility on yourself. Maybe even it's lies about how you're interacting with your kids and not connecting with them in the way that you want to be the mom you want to be. So I think there's so many different reasons. Oftentimes I think there's inner work that needs to be done through the power of the Holy Spirit to kind of attack the lies we're believing. But then that coincides with the outer work of finding people that are willing to be safe, because vulnerable means to wound, to be wounded.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yeah.

Heather MacFadyen: And so our natural instinct is never to put ourselves in a situation where we could be wounded.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Heather MacFadyen: So if we can do that inner work -- I think it's Suzanne Stabile that says the -- something about the work that needs to be done in community, the isolating work that needs to be done in community. It's something about, like, I need to work on myself, but when I do it in conjunction with safe people, it goes farther and deeper and I have that support to keep digging.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's how we are wired.

Heather MacFadyen: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, that's how we're wired for healing and for growth, is in community, not in isolation.

As I listen to you, too, you're at a different stage of parenting than I am. And our listeners are in various stages. And there's also women who have not parented in a traditional fashion. You know, there's some ladies out there who may not have children, but they have parented in so many ways with nieces, nephews, and other youngers in their world. But everything you have described applies to us.

And the older I've gotten, Heather, the more I've recognized that -- you know, I may have had in the past -- or I still do, who knows -- shame that keeps me from being vulnerable, or pride or fear, whatever it may be. But I look back at my life and I can see that humility is such a beautiful antidote for all of those things. And when we truly humble ourselves and recognize that the ground at the foot of the cross is perfectly level, then we have the confidence to stand up and say, Hey, I have needs. I'm not -- you know, I don't have it all together. I'm just doing my best here. Because most of us really are just doing our best, you know, but we think -- we think she's got it more together.

So in your book, you suggest there's no good mom formula, which I love. And there arena some mamas who really need to know what you mean by that. So there's not a good mom formula, what do you mean?

Heather MacFadyen: Yeah. I think that was one of the things that kept me from community, was this feeling like out there somewhere there was this formula for a good outcome -- an adult child who's walking with the Lord, who's functioning well -- and I was somehow missing that formula. And maybe it was one more book I needed to read, or maybe it was a podcast, now we would say, that I need to listen to. That if I just had that one piece, then it would all come together. And recognizing how often it's my heart's intention that matters to God, not this perfection of getting X, Y, and Z right for such and such outcome, that we look in the Bible and we see such a variety of storylines and things that don't make sense. It would never in our logical minds be a formula for the Gospel even coming or Jesus being born and how God is always doing something differently.

And that fits in with what you're saying about this humility, this stance of, "I am limited. I don't know what's going on beyond me, what God has planned for my kids, how much more he loves them." And it could be a train wreck with grace. It could be the thing that we're trying to prevent. You know, I think with girls, like a teen pregnancy. With boys it's a drug addiction. Those are like, oh, we got to do everything in our power to not let those happen. And God's not -- those things he can use sometimes to grow champions for him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Heather MacFadyen: And, you know, Mary's pregnancy, as we're thinking of Mary right now and Baby Jesus, that in itself is totally outside of what I'm sure her parents wanted for her --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Heather MacFadyen: -- and yet they didn't know this was God's child, this is the Savior of the world.

And so if we can humble ourselves to recognize we don't know at all and we don't know what God's doing with those stories that seem hard in the moment and just follow him each day with hearts that are intended to obey him as best we know how. And I think that the outcome is that we are good moms.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, exactly, because you are a humble follower. I mean, that's really what a good mom is. And I have looked at my friends' lives, we've had many mom conversations, and I've really thought, you know, success is not how your children behave, success is not what they do in life, success is not if they get out of your house without some of those things you've described. Success is obedience. That's it. You just follow the Lord. Success is obedience because God's in the process of writing those stories. And you're right, he has plot twists that he knows exist and he knows what the outcome is going to be. So we just live this day in obedience. Good word, Heather.

So the other thing that trips us up -- okay, so we might get those big global concepts really secure, right? But then it's the little tiny speed bumps that get us, like comparison. Okay? Because it's easy to compare ourselves to other women, other moms. You know, I should be like her, my kids should behave like that. Why can't I get it together like she has it together? You know how we are. So how can women, moms, learn to stop comparing themselves to other moms?

Heather MacFadyen: I think a gift as you age is you start to own who God made you to be. And my encouragement in the book is for each mom to own her brand and whatever that looks like. What it looks like in her marriage, I mean, whether she is single parenting, whether she's co-parenting after a divorce. Whatever she's doing, even when it comes to her marriage status. Where it comes on her work choices. I think so often we can isolate from other moms because we think that one work choice is less than the other. Or schooling choices or -- all these different things that really is in that obedience, in that heart posture of, "I don't know, but this is where God's pulling our family," it's going to look different. And if we could each say, well, this is our family brand, or this is my mom brand, and own that and be confident in that and recognize you are so uniquely wired from the mom next to you and that's amazing. How boring would it be if we were all just these little Stepford wives walking around?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ugh.

Heather MacFadyen: Yeah, it's gross. But when I'm in community with that mom who is so uniquely wired from me and she provides insight. On my kids even. When I think about those times when I've been perplexed by a boy and something he said or something he's done and I share it with a friend vulnerably and she can provide an insight from her unique wiring and personality and experience that helps me love my child more, it only reinforces my parenting and helps me mother that child better. So I just -- I love each mom owning their unique brand versus comparing and contrasting and feeling less than or better than the mom next to her.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that allows us -- when we lose that comparison, it allows us to really need each other and benefit from each other instead of having a constant sense of competition or feeling threatened. So that's a really good word, because God did wire us uniquely. Those relationships matter.

Heather MacFadyen: Well, thinking about the competition also, one other thing is that if as believers we really believe that God is raising up this next generation to see a world unlike any we've seen, then my hope is for your child to love God and to use their own unique gifts and talents for his good purposes he's planned for them to do. And so I am a co-labor with you and a cheerleader for your kids as much as you are a cheerleader for my kids.

Our small group gets together once a month and we speak a blessing over our kids. Like a Shabbat dinner. And it's so good for the other parents too when they speak words of blessing over my kids. When my kids are hearing this isn't just something your parents believe about you or see in you, these other adults see that in you as well. And so when we open ourselves up to that, instead of thinking, oh, my kid's got to make the team or do better than your kid, it just -- we're missing the point as believers of what the goal is, to be co-laborers together.

Jennifer Rothschild: That gives me chills. I love that idea of the speaking of the blessing. I know there some listeners who are really going to benefit and run with that. That's a good word.

In your book, Heather, you write about how your relationship with your kids impacts your choices. And I'm curious what you mean by that.

Heather MacFadyen: So I think so often as moms we are going and blowing and we forget that this is not about us looking good, but also it's about being students of our kids and helping shape who God made them to be. Because they're going to be rough around the edges. We all are. We're all in process. But so often in my mothering, it was about me and my purposes and my plans, and I would kind of forget about connecting to them and fostering that relationship so that I had a voice as they continued to grow, so that they would come to me as questions came up. And so I think an essential part of being the mom you want to be is having this connection with your kids. And so I had to dig into my own anger issues and where was that coming from. And discovered it was a lot of it based in fear. Going back to our original part of our conversation, a lot of fears that I'm going to mess up or fear of rejection from others. And in that fear place feeling, I had to get at this energizing emotion of anger to get control so you could be good so that I looked good. And so when I dealt with my own stuff, it just opens up our relationship and -- yeah, I'm a strong proponent of that as a piece of this community conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, it reminds me -- I spoke with Crystal Paine a while back on love centered parenting, and she talked about that, not parenting for the sake of her reputation, but for the sake of relationship with her kids. Boy, don't we fall into it easily, though, Heather? And I want to circle back to anger, because I think that is such a thing. And you're right, yours was rooted in fear. Anger is always the fruit. It's never the root.

Heather MacFadyen: It's a secondary emotion.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. We've got to always go to the root. And so yours happened to be fear. And for a lot of us, I think that's it. But it can have different roots. But I'm curious, how would you suggest that if a mom just heard that and she's going, oh, no, that's me. I've got these anger outbursts with my kids. And even if I don't have the outbursts, I've got this passive-aggressive latent thing that they know and everybody knows. Which can I just say, would you just please have an outburst. Don't do the passive-aggressive. It's so much harder to manage with your poor kids. Anyway...

Heather MacFadyen: Yeah, it's hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: For me personally, I would just rather somebody tell me, "I am mad at you," than punish me with silence.

So anyway, how do you work through anger? And then because your kids are exposed to it, how are you teaching them in the process?

Heather MacFadyen: Yeah, it was -- it's been a journey. It's all part of that work that I've shared with you with the 12-step recovery and the inner healing prayer. For yourself, I would start taking note of moments when you have an expression of anger, and start to take note of what's triggering them and see if you can find a theme.

There was a great book that helped me recognize anger was not the problem. It was called "Good and Angry" by Turansky and Miller. And in it they just talk through anger being an emotion. And it's like a red flag that something's wrong here, something's -- this is -- something's off. And I need to figure out, is it something in me? Is it an actual character issue in my kids? Is it a mismatched expectation? And the key is to not solve the problem with anger, and so that's when we get into sin. So many Scriptures say be angry but do not sin. God gets angry. God can have righteous anger. We struggle with that. That is a hard thing. But it shows us that anger itself is not the problem, it just helps us figure out what the problem is. But if we keep trying to stuff it, like you said, or be passive-aggressive, it's still there. We may not look angry and we may be all shiny and people think we're amazing moms because we never yell at our kids, but it's still there. And if we don't dig and figure out the why, we're only hurting ourselves. Our body is still keeping a record of that anger --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Heather MacFadyen: -- and we can get really sick. And our kids feel that distance that you were talking about. They can feel when there's displeasure, or they know there's something off. And so I do encourage you to do the work, figure it out. Even if you don't have an outburst, is there a time when you're feeling that emotion rise up in you? And just start taking note and recognize is there some consistent theme for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: And by the way, we will have a link to the book you mentioned, "Good and Angry," because that will be a great resource. Besides your own book, Heather, that's a -- both are going to be great resources. So thank you.

I'm going to move us to the last question, girl. Okay?

Heather MacFadyen: Okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you've got a woman who's heard all this, whether she's a mom or not, but she's hearing the value of community, the value of humility, the value of just trusting God with the process of whatever it is, whether it's your kids or just your whole life, whatever it is. Okay? So what advice do you have for her who desperately needs community? So when this podcast ends, what's the first thing she can do?

Heather MacFadyen: That's a really good question. I again encourage you to ask God to reveal to you why you may not be tapping into community. So often women will reach out to me and say that they're lonely or they're isolated, and it often isn't for lack of people around them. Maybe in this last year and a half it was because we were not allowed together. But I think a lot of that's lifted. And so really consider why for you. What is it? Is it shame? Is it fear? Is it some wrong beliefs? And just bring those to God. And then I encourage you to ask him to bring to mind one person. This sometimes gets overwhelming because it feels like we have to do all the things at once.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Heather MacFadyen: So one person that he brings to mind that you would like to get to know better. Or if you're looking for mentoring, someone who's doing one thing in an area of your life that you would like to prioritize or grow in this next year. And just reach out and ask them whether they'd meet you at the park with your kids, or whether you have coffee or lunch or a Saturday morning walk around the neighborhood. Just pick one time. And this doesn't have to be a long-term commitment. This isn't the rest of your life that they're mentoring or meeting with you, it's just a one time, and see if it's a match and see how you feel.

After notice, take note of feelings you have. And if we embody and recognize, wow, it just feels so good to be heard, it feels so good to not feel like I'm the only one, which is the lie the enemy loves to keep us trapped in. No one's coming after you, you're the only one, that shame. And how does it feel to say something and the other person say, Oh, gosh, I haven't had that exact thing, but, man, I can so relate to what you're talking about, or, Yeah, my kid does that too. And so when you recognize how that felt, you are more likely to do it again and take that risk. Because it is brave. It is brave to put yourself out there, it's brave to invite. But I find most people love to be invited. And so if we want something, be brave and create the thing that you want. That's my encouragement.

Jennifer Rothschild: I really like Heather. And if you are a mom, my friend, then you need to follow her podcast. And we will link that podcast to you on the show notes at 191. And if you're needing community, can I just encourage you, start small. You can do this. You just pick one time or one person and you make the call or send the text. You heard Heather. Just create the life that you want to live.

K.C. Wright: You can do this 4:13ers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep, you can do it.

K.C. Wright: And you know why? You can do all things through Christ who empowers you in this very life. So after this podcast ends, show some love and connect with somebody. Be brave and you'll be blessed. Until next week, remember, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can. And guess what, K.C.? I didn't even tell you this yet.

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ann Voskamp is on the podcast next week.

K.C. Wright: She's one of my favorites.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: Speaking of blogs --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

K.C. Wright: -- that pull out your heart and throw it on the floor and stomp on it. Oh, my gosh. Here I am a bearded man and her blogs have made me weep openly.

Jennifer Rothschild: The woman's amazing. Well, we're going to talk next week with Ann Voskamp, and we're going to talk about -- she's going to get real honest about her story, but it's how to get through hard things. And she's had some hard things. Oh, it's going to be so good, you guys. If you're not subscribed --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- subscribe. Follow the podcast so you'll know when Annie shows up.

K.C. Wright: Hey, I'm off to get a medicine ball.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you are.

K.C. Wright: But what's your favorite drink at Starbucks, Jen?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's a double tall breve latte or a double tall oatmeal -- oatmeal. Oh, my gosh. Oat milk latte.

K.C. Wright: Oat milk.


Go deeper into this week's question in my Bible Study Bistro Facebook group. There's a community of 4:13ers waiting for you!