4:13 Podcast: Can I Be More Gentle With Myself? With Micah E. Davis [Episode 375]

Micah Davis: We come before God and we beg him to forgive us and we never really get to this place of accepting his forgiveness. Like, in the back of our mind there's this subtle doubt that says there is no way that you can be forgiven for what you did or I know God has to forgive me, but he doesn't really want to.

And that's the trap, right? We see God as this ruler of the cosmos who's separate, he's jaded, he's always upset with us because we can never get it right or never figure it out. We think, man, thank goodness for Jesus, because if it weren't for Jesus, God would hate us.

But, you know, here's the deal. God does not love us because Jesus died for us; Jesus died for us because God loves us.

Jennifer Rothschild: When the going gets tough or when you've been let down or when you've failed over and over, it is so easy to be way too hard on ourselves. Maybe it's hard to forgive yourself if you've blown it or forgive others if they have. But there is hope The Gospel shows us that you can show yourself grace. You can be gentle with yourself.

On today's 4:13, author and pastor Micah Davis invites us to release inner turmoil and find grace. You are going to get powerful spiritual truths about grace and forgiveness, coupled with four very practical actions that you can take. Okay, this is a good one. I'm a little bit excited about it because I loved this message. So, KC, let's get it going.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Glad you're back with us again. And if you're a new friend, that was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy, and I'm Jennifer. And our goal is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13.

You know the drill if you've been with us before. It's two friends and one topic and zero stress. So if you've got any stress today, just let it go for a little bit because you're going to love this conversation. It's going to really deeply touch your spirit and minister to your soul, I guarantee it, because it did mine.

And, you know, Micah -- we're going to hear about him and from him in a minute. He's a pastor. And so some of the things he was saying I was really just resonating with, because my dad was a pastor and I'm in ministry. And, in fact, KC, I haven't told you this story yet, but recently -- like I told you, I'm getting older. The older I get, everything was last week. So I'll just say last week. It could have been two months ago. I can't remember.

But anyway, I had the privilege -- and it really was a privilege -- of speaking for this group of blind people. And they happened to have this national conference in our town.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So the group is called VIP Conduit, I believe, and they came from, like, New York and Tennessee and Florida and -- anyway, to here in Missouri for this conference. There were about 40 of them. And I did not know exactly what I was going to do, you know, because I wanted to kind of meet the group and see, you know, how to speak to them. And for those of you who are new friends, you may not know I'm blind, so obviously we have a lot in common.

So I get there and I -- as the woman is introducing me, somebody's computer is talking. Okay. Now, I have a computer called JAWS, and so everything -- I mean, I have a software called JAWS on my computer, and so everything talks really loud. And I'm hearing this computer going off and I'm like, okay, I'll just ignore it. Well, finally, the woman who's trying to introduce me, "Could someone turn off their laptop." Okay. And I'm like, "Yeah, hit control," because that'll make it stop talking.

Okay, so that's chattering the whole time. And all these blind people are used to this, right? The sighted people aren't as used to it. The blind people are. But still it was hilarious.

Okay. Well, then I start speaking, and I'm hearing people's iPhones. And everybody has on voiceover. So while I'm speaking, I hear voiceover going off on somebody's iPhone. They're texting. I'm hearing them, "Hey, Siri, tell George to not forget to take out the garbage." "Tell George to not forget to take out the garbage. Send it?" "Yes, send it." And I'm like -- the whole time --

KC Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- like, this is going off all around -- it is cracking me up. I'm like, you be you, people. Like, you be you.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was hilarious. So these people were -- not everybody, of course. But there were three or four of them. They were totally oblivious to how loud it was 'cause they're so used to it. And the community that was with them, okay -- but I'm just laughing thinking, wow, you people, you do you. I'm so used to being with sighted people, I try to behave. But, like, you do you.

KC Wright: Well, wasn't that distracting?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it was.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what was really funny is every time I would hear an iPhone go off, I would literally think, oh, my gosh, is my phone talking?

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because it sounds like mine, but it wasn't.

Okay. So the funniest part. So we leave. Kenzie's with me. She took me to the speaking event. And, you know, we're just laughing about how, like, they're so loud and comfortable with it, with their technology. And she goes, "Okay, but" -- now that we get in the car, she goes, "Okay, but I'm going to tell you something. And I hope you think it's funny." I'm like, "Okay, what?" "Your shirt is on inside out."

I was like -- well, that's the most embarrassing thing that happened that I'm not embarrassed about because none of them could see it. I'm like, of all the speaking events for me to wear my shirt inside out, it was with a bunch of blind people who thought I was beautiful.

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it was -- I tell you the story because it was hilarious.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: To me, it was such a picture of grace.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was just such a picture of grace all around. And so anyway, I hope they were blessed. But I was really blessed just at seeing their joy, their comfort with who they are. So it was really special. I was super grateful that I was invited.

And you know what? I think it's interesting, based on what we're about to talk about of being gentle with ourselves and showing grace to ourselves, that's what was happening in that room that night. It really was.

KC Wright: The picture of grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: It really was. So anyway, let's introduce Micah and get him going.

KC Wright: Micah Davis lives and writes inside the loop of Indianapolis with his wife, Rylei, and their Australian Kelpie, Leo. He serves as the pastor of teaching and Vision at The Sanctuary Church. He and his wife have a little one coming just in time for Christmas.

You will love this deep and gentle conversation, so let's get started with Micah and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Micah, we're going to have to start with the hard stuff, okay? Because I think that's going to help us with this conversation, because you have gone through just some of the very worst pain imaginable. And I would be honored if you'd be willing to share with us some of your story.

Micah Davis: Sure. Well, Jennifer, first and foremost, thank you so much for having me. It's a gift to be with you.

But I grew up the son of two pastors -- so I'm a pastor's kid -- and my parents moved up to Indianapolis, Indiana, in 2003, with a dollar and a dream to plant a brand-new church in the Indianapolis area. And over the course of three years, we saw really a move of God. Started with 12 people in a little apartment community center, and over the course of three years it became a community of over 700 people, and it was just kind of rapid growth up and to the right. My dad sort of became, like, a little local celebrity. You know, this was pre-social media days.

And in 2005, he came home from preaching one day and told my mom that he didn't want to be married to her anymore, that he was leaving their marriage, he was leaving our family, he was leaving God. And he was having an affair with my mom's best friend, who was also our children's pastor at the time, and ended up kind of destroying our family, our church, and really destroying my life as I knew it. And that was really my first instance of really deep pain that I had to work through, and hurt and forgiveness.

So fast forward a few years, my parents --it's another story for another conversation. But my parents miraculously were able to reconcile their marriage. My dad ended up becoming broken, asking for forgiveness. My mom graciously gave him that over the course of many, many, many intense counseling sessions.

But at 13, another proverbial bomb was dropped in our family, where my dad found out at the age of about 35 that his father, my grandfather, was actually not his real father.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Micah Davis: It was a secret that had been concealed for his entire life that he was actually adopted when he was about two years old, and he didn't know who his real father was. And so this started kind of a long journey of trying to figure out how to navigate the web of lies that that had created. And it came out that my grandfather was engaged in a long string of affairs and a whole bunch of stuff. So a lot of hurt and pain there.

And then at 18, my family had moved down to Nashville, Tennessee. My dad had been, through a very long process, restored back into pastoral ministry, and my godfather had hired him as a pastor at their church, which was one of the fastest-growing churches in the country at the time. And in 2015, my godfather had an affair with his assistant --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my lands.

Micah Davis: -- and blew up that church. So kind of father figure after father figure after father figure.

And then at 25, kind of cherry on top, I came home to my parents one day, and my parents brought me out on the back porch. And in a very eerily familiar fashion, my mom was sitting there in tears. She had just found out, at age 50, that her father was not her real father.

And so just kind of the full circle scale of feeling hurt and wounded by father figures in my life that developed the crucible that would become this book of learning how to forgive people when you've been wounded very deeply.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I don't even have words. Like, I knew a little bit. I didn't know all that. And that is -- that is enormous and that is heavy. And so, sadly, it well qualifies you to grapple with what forgiveness is and to be qualified to write a book.

And I got to say, I appreciate your stewardship of this pain, because it can bring freedom to others. And I know that's what part of this conversation is going to be today. So I appreciate your vulnerability and willingness to share that.

And I want to talk about forgiveness, because -- like, I'm already having trouble forgiving these people in your life and I don't even know them, right? So let's talk about this. You say in your book that forgiveness is not easy and it's not natural. So why is that? Why isn't it easier and why isn't it natural?

Micah Davis: Yeah. You know, I talk about forgiveness in the book as not a formula, but more of a crucible. I don't really know another better way to describe it. Forgiveness at its essence is costly. You know, it costs the perpetrator an unbelievable amount of humility to repent and to ask for forgiveness. But it also costs the offended and the wounded to extend an unreasonable amount of charity to cancel this very real relational debt that's present, right?

And I think what most of us fail to realize is that actually in withholding what we are to give, we actually miss out on receiving what we most need.

And forgiveness comes at a cost either way, right? To forgive costs us greatly. And I don't try to sidestep that or beat around the bush in this book, but I also say that to not forgive may end up costing us more. You know, forgiveness is a voluntary form of suffering, and I don't think we can deny or minimize that. But that's why I think forgiveness in any and every situation is possible, but it's more of a crucible than a formula. It's just -- it's painful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, when you describe it as a voluntary type of suffering, no wonder we avoid it. No wonder our flesh avoids it, because we're not prone to desire suffering.

Micah Davis: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think that's good, Micah, to give us that paradigm and that framework, because I think some people think that certain personalities can forgive easier or, you know, the lighter the debt, the easier the forgiveness. And what you're saying is no matter what, it's kind of against our natural fleshly disposition, it's going to be a suffering and a crucible.

Micah Davis: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, let me say one more thing about that too. It's not a formula. I love that. Because I think we think -- well, the Bible says just do it. Seventy times seven, just do it. And you're saying it's not a formula.

So have you forgiven everybody all the things all the time, or do you still have to re-forgive?

Micah Davis: That's a great question. And, you know, I was just going to say that. Like you talked about earlier, I do feel like I've had quite a bit of experience working through forgiveness in my life and traversing really deep pain. But I would be lying if I said that writing a book on it just fixes it.

You know, David Brooks talks about as writers, writing our way into a better life. And for whatever reason -- you know, this is my second book. And the first book was called "Trailblazers" and was all about blazing a trail. And I ended up planting a church two weeks before that book came out, so I was walking out the message of that book in really real time.

And, you know, this past summer I went through a really, really difficult relational hurt with a really close friend and I found myself again in real time, as this book releases, working out and living through and walking through the very things that I talk about in these pages. And it's not easy and it's not linear either.

And I think that's where we get confused often around this conversation of forgiveness, is we think that once forgiveness has been extended and accepted, that that's that. But there's a difference between forgiveness as practice and forgiveness as process, right?

So the practice of forgiveness is very straightforward. "Hey, will you forgive me?" "Yes, I forgive you." Beautiful. That's a great entry into the process of forgiveness, and there are different aspects of trying to figure out what that looks like. And so in the book I kind of talk about those three things.

And, you know, the first step in the process of forgiving is to grieve. We have to grieve what we've lost. We have to acknowledge the fact that we've been hurt, that we've been wounded, that someone has done something to us that was bad or evil even.

And then we have to reassess and figure out, okay, in light of the hurt that has taken place, what does my relationship with this person need to look like right now? And again, this is another rabbit trail that I won't get fully into because of time, but this is where there's so many warps and bumps when it comes to this conversation of forgiveness. Because especially when, like, abuse or anything like that is present in a relationship, there should be very strong guardrails put in place to protect the victim in this situation, right?

So when we talk about forgiveness, we're not talking about just letting people off the hook. We're talking about reassessing the relationship and figuring out, okay, where do I stand with this person?

But then the last step is to rebuild. Jesus longs for reconciliation to be the end story. And unfortunately, on this side of heaven, in a sinful, fallen, broken world, that's not always possible. But it is possible for us in every situation to put our best foot forward towards that forgiving end, towards the end that we're all working towards, which is an eternity where reconciliation between heaven and earth, between Christ and the church will take place.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. That's good and that's hard.

Micah Davis: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm mindful -- one of my favorite authors, Stormie Omartian, she once wrote that forgiveness does not make the other person right, but it makes you free.

Micah Davis: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think that's kind of -- when you're explaining those three parts of that process, I mean, that's part of it. That's why sometimes there's guardrails. Yeah, we cannot do this outside of good counsel and the Holy Spirit, and I think your book is a great tool for this. And in your book, you include -- I'm just going to call them four must-haves for forgiveness. Would you share those with us.

Micah Davis: Yeah, absolutely. So there's kind of four main acts that I see in the journey of forgiveness. There's forgiving others, there's being forgiven by others -- right? -- asking for forgiveness, there's forgiving ourselves, and then forgiving a forgiving God. And I think all four of those aspects are required elements of living a life here on earth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Forgiving God, let's talk about that. Because he's perfect, he doesn't sin. What are we forgiving him for?

Micah Davis: Yeah. So part 4 of the book is entitled "Forgiving God." And it's a bit of a play on words. So it's about forgiving God, but it's also about a forgiving God. So it goes both ways, right? How do we forgive God? And then how do we receive the unmerited forgiveness that God extends to us?

So let's start with forgiving God because you asked about it. He's perfect. And so let me just say, theologically God does not need our forgiveness, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Micah Davis: But psychologically --

Jennifer Rothschild: I knew what you meant, by the way. But yes, emotionally, psychologically. Yeah, go with that.

Micah Davis: For many of us, we have to reconcile with the God that we have often made in our image more than the image that we actually are made in. That's really where the reconciliation has to take place. And then really the big question is this: Can a God who allows suffering be trusted? And I think that question stems from this acute awareness that we all have that this world is not as it should be. And we're longing for things to be made right, and oftentimes we're looking for someone to blame.

But I think what's so fascinating is Jesus, you know, God incarnate, like, he suffered. He experienced unanswered prayer, he experienced God seeming silent and absence. And I think what that does is it reframes the big question around not a detached, unconcerned God, but a God who intimately understands our pain and our experience.

You know, I think God uses suffering in some cases. Author and pastor Tyler Staton says he allows pain. And he doesn't remove pain, but he does redeem it. And it's in these moments that Jesus invites us to authentically come before him with all that we are and all that we have, all of our anger, our frustration, our doubt, our despair, and to let him love us in that place. And I think it's in this moment where we not only experience an incredible degree of intimacy with God, but we also soberly wake up to the forgiveness that's first been extended to us.

And it's in this space that we recognize that God is not to blame, but sin, evil, and Satan are, right? God's not to blame. He's the one who offers a way out of the destructive cycle of sin and shame and suffering that we often find ourselves in. And so that's kind of the paradigm around forgiving God.

But the other piece is that we serve a forgiving God. One of my favorite stories that kind of goes overlooked in the Scriptures is in the Book of Micah. And, you know, we see this fascinating exchange between God and his prophet. This is Micah Chapter 5 and Chapter 6. God puts humanity on trial and pleads his case. And Micah's conclusion is effectively that humanity's only plea after God's laid out his case is guilty, right? Like, how are you going to go against the God of the universe? But on that cross hung Jesus, and on that cross Jesus declared, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."

So Jesus' Gospel, the central message of the Gospel is forgiveness. It's redeeming and reclaiming those who renounce or repent of their way of sin and believe in Jesus as Lord. And that's the invitation that's extended to anyone and everyone, and that's why we forgive, as Paul writes to the Colossians, as God first forgive us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I'm so glad you said that, Micah. We are tracking. Because I literally was thinking, where is that verse? Is it Colossians or Ephesians?

That the same forgiveness, yes, that God extends to us is what we extend to others. Because that has been the single verse that has convicted me the most. When I want to hold those who have hurt me accountable, I think, wait a minute. God didn't hold me accountable. I mean, he held Christ accountable for me. He forgave me fully. I mean, that's huge. When we receive that kind of humility of how greatly we are forgiven, I do think it kind of helps us with our forgiveness toward others. It's part of the process. It's part of the process.

Micah Davis: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So then let's get real honest here, Micah, because you've been through hard stuff. Our listeners, they might even be right in the middle of some hard stuff, and forgiveness is theoretical to them, but they cannot even imagine. Like, they're afraid if they forgive, then they just kind of relinquish any kind of sense of just, you know, independence or agency that they have because they've been so obliterated.

So how do you forgive someone when you just can't get past the pain that they've caused? How do you do that?

Micah Davis: Yeah. I mean, it's hard and it's not linear. And I think that's where it's really difficult with this conversation, because I hesitate to offer, you know, platitudes or easy answers. And I do have different tools and reflections that I've been able to walk through in my own life, but I hesitate to just say, well, if you just do this, it will help out in any and every situation.

I think the biggest thing that we have to look at is what did Jesus do, right? How did he live his life? And you alluded to earlier, you know, this conversation that Jesus has with his disciples and Peter says, you know, "How many times should I forgive, Lord? Seven times?" And what most people don't realize is in First Century Judaism, the rabbis of the day taught that three times of forgiveness was kind of the max that you could offer. After three strikes, you were out.

And so Peter comes along to Jesus and he says, "Well, how many times should I forgive, Lord? Seven times?" And that's Peter trying to be a bit of a smart aleck. You know, that's him trying to be the teacher's pet. Well, how about seven times, Jesus? Seven is the holy number. That's the perfect number, right? And, of course, you alluded to it. Jesus says, "No, 70 times seven times."

And, of course, Jesus isn't being literal here, he's being dramatic. He's saying forgiveness is a way of life. And no matter the situation, no matter the position that we find ourselves in, there's kind of three things that we have to keep in mind. Number one, forgiveness is a responsive decision. We already talked about this. It's a decision that we make in response to the beautiful truth that God first forgave us.

Secondly, it's a relational decision. Forgiveness is always a starting point. And I think that's why Jesus calls us to repeat it over and over and over again, because to forgive is the prerequisite of the ultimate goal, which is reconciliation. And so as much as forgiveness depends on us, it can't end with us. The end goal is restored relationship to whatever degree that we can control or, again, is safe for us.

But then finally -- and I think this is the hardest part, Jennifer -- is that it's a required decision. There is no explaining away or sidestepping Jesus' imperative to forgive. He says, "Forgive as the Lord forgave you, for if you do not forgive other people's sins, your Heavenly Father will not forgive your sins. But if you do forgive other people's sins, your Heavenly Father will forgive your sins."

And so I think forgiveness is one of the single most powerful practices or means of grace that Jesus uses to help shape and form us into people who actually image him more authentically and beautifully. You know, there are so many ways that this concept of forgiveness can be abused or manipulated and, honestly, irresponsibly exemplified. But when it's done right, like, you know, right? Like, when we see it and when it's done right, it's just like it's so, so beautiful because it's amazing grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. It's how we want to be. I want to be that way. I want the -- I mean, there's still situations in my life where I'm in the 70 times seven, you know. And I think what happens with me, Micah, is I feel a sense of defeat. "Lord, I don't want to feel this," you know. "I forgive. Please help my unbelief in this area." And he does. It's a process. We got to be patient with ourselves.

Which leads me to another question I saw in your book I would love for you to address. Okay? I'm very curious about this. Because you encourage us to forgive ourselves. So two questions about that. Where is that in the Bible? Is that biblical? And does it matter? Why does it matter?

Micah Davis: Yeah. I think it matters a ton because, you know, often the person that we have the hardest time forgiving is ourselves. We're often the one that we keep imprisoned the longest, we're often the one that we're the most hardest on. You know, there's that thing, like, the toughest critic in our lives is often between our ears, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Micah Davis: And so, yeah, biblically speaking, you know, there's this fascinating exchange -- Genesis Chapters 45 through 50 -- where Joseph, after being sold into slavery and completely abandoned by his brothers, he finds himself in the same room as them again decades later. And don't have time to give the full story, but the short of it is that Joseph forgives his brothers, but Joseph's brothers fail to forgive themselves. They constantly try to bargain with Joseph. And the text says that eventually Joseph breaks down. He just starts weeping.

And I think this exchange is a mirror for many of our exchanges with God. Like, we come before God and we beg him to forgive us and we never really get to this place of accepting his forgiveness. Like, in the back of our mind there's this subtle doubt that says there is no way that you can be forgiven for what you did or I know God has to forgive me, but he doesn't really want to. And that's the trap, right? We see God as this ruler of the cosmos who's separate, he's jaded, he's always upset with us because we can never get it right or never figure it out. We think, man, thank goodness for Jesus, because if it weren't for Jesus, God would hate us.

But, you know, here's the deal. God does not love us because Jesus died for us. Jesus died for us because God loves us. And I think that's such a subtle shift, but it's one that will change your perspective forever. God is faithful and just to forgive. And so I just wonder -- you know, maybe there's someone listening today who needs to hear this, that God forgives you, and I think the invitation for us today is now it's time for you to forgive you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So powerful, Micah. And I appreciate too that biblical anchoring. Because I was fast-forwarding through just the little I know Scripture and thinking, where can we find that? You are exactly right. That's beautiful.

And, you know, I am -- how do I put this? I am moved at the stewardship of your suffering and how God has redeemed it. And so I guess -- I think our listeners detect this also. There's a depth and a clarity in your message here and in your character, and this is a result of God's grace in your life, and even in this area of forgiveness. And so whatever someone is going through right now, whatever it is that their pain is that they need to forgive, this is what it looks like as you're processing it, and maybe even on the other side. So there is such hope, such beauty.

And here's one thing I wonder about, Micah. I'm curious your opinion. I don't know where it is in Psalms, where the Scripture -- maybe it's 103 or 110, I forget -- where God does not treat us as our sins deserve, but instead he has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west. Okay.

Micah Davis: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So in some ways, when we're still beating ourselves up for our own sin, the sin that God has forgiven, what happens when we bring it up to him again? Do you think he remembers? Does he know what we're talking about?

Micah Davis: Yeah, I think he does. And I think this is where -- you know, there's just a lot of harmful adages around forgiveness. And one of them that I'm sure everyone's familiar with is, well, just forgive and forget, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Micah Davis: Just forgive and forget.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Micah Davis: But you said it. I believe it's Psalm 103. Like, God doesn't forget our sins; he removes our sins. There's an intentional act on behalf of God that -- like, he's so gracious towards us that in spite of our sinfulness, he loves us, he pursues us, he comes after us. And again, he sent his son Jesus to die for us so that we could be reconciled with him.

And I think that's such a helpful paradigm, even for us, as we are working out our own forgiveness journeys of -- you know, I think it's very distasteful to tell people who have been through really difficult things, well, just forget about it. Just forget about it, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Micah Davis: And we use Scripture -- like Matthew 18 is a big one that often gets used and abused in Christian circles to justify forgetfulness. But this has nothing to do with forgetfulness. It has everything to do with -- you know, in that parable in Matthew 18, there's a servant who comes before a king. The text says that there's a massive debt that this servant has to pay. And I think what's interesting is most people read that and they think, okay, so imagine this massive pile of cash in the room. And the way we read Matthew 18 is like, okay, that pile of cash right there, that doesn't exist. It's not there. It didn't happen, right? We want to forget about it. But that's factually untrue.

But the longer you hear that, the easier it becomes to believe. Forgiveness, however, at its essence requires a cost. So it means acknowledging the very real relational debt that's present in the room and then choosing, making a decisive action to release that debt.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I appreciate the way you're looking at all this because we cannot trivialize this, throw a verse on it, put it on a bumper sticker and drive off like, okay, done.

Micah Davis: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's why I'm trying to be tender in the way I approach this. Because what do you say, then, to a person who's like, Okay, I get it? Because -- and you know what? We don't forget. Our brains don't forget. Our cellular level, we do not forget.

Micah Davis: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what do we do, then, when we, by the grace of God, to the best of our ability have forgiven? And we're still always in the process. But we remember the pain, and suddenly we just have this terrible memory. Do we forgive again? Do we rebrand it with grace? How does God redeem that? What do we do? Hard, right?

Micah Davis: It is. You know, Pete Scazzero has this line, "Jesus may live in your heart, but Grandpa lives in your bones." And that's certainly my story. If I look at my family tree, my parents are the only couple on either side of my family tree who have not been divorced. And they were about as close as they could to getting there. So, like, that pain lives in me, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right.

Micah Davis: And so I think when it comes to remembering these things and acknowledging these things, there's just an element of working it out and living it out in real time. And I think the way that Jesus demonstrates this is -- you know, in John Chapter 20, he appears before his disciples and he says, "Peace be with you." And I just think, what? These guys just abandoned you. They just dipped when you went to the Cross. Like, you spent three years pouring everything into these guys, and when the moment of truth came, they were nowhere to be found. And so, Jesus, you have the audacity to show back up in a room unannounced and to say, "Peace be with you"?

And, you know, he says that line three times. And we're all familiar with Peter's three denials. And eventually he ends up asking Peter, you know, "Peter, do you love me?" How many times? Three times. Every time he's asking Peter, he's acknowledging, hey, I know what you did and I forgive you. And the way that he proves that is he shows his disciples his body. He says, Look at my hands. Look at my feet. Do you see my -- what? My scars. And I think that's the invitation for us as followers of Jesus.

To live as a human is to be wounded. But we have the choice to allow those wounds to stay open or to allow Jesus to heal those wounds and to become, as Nouwen calls us, wounded healers that walk around scarred. But those scars demonstrate a testimony. And for us, it allows us to say that failure isn't final, but forgiveness is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah. All right, brother. This is so good that I could talk to you so long that our listeners would stop listening, so we are going to head to our last question. But I just -- and I know that I'm speaking for my listeners. This is a book we need to go through slowly and with a buddy.

Micah Davis: Yeah. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But we're going to get to our last question, Micah. Okay. So someone listening -- you have unearthed a lot of things that they have tried to keep buried, and they're feeling a little uncomfy right now and they're like, I get it. He says it's choosing your suffering. I get it. He says there's not a formula, it's a crucible. I get it. But I still need to know. Micah, please tell me, what is the first thing that I can do when this podcast ends -- because I am struggling to forgive. I don't want to. I'm struggling to forgive, but I want to get free. Give them something that they can do when this podcast ends.

Micah Davis: Let me give, like, sort of a theoretical, and then I'll end with the practical.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Micah Davis: Be gentle with yourself. Be patient. You know, you've talked about this, Jennifer. Like, this is a slow process. And I think oftentimes we listen to podcasts or we read books and we can get caught up in the minutia of almost treating it like trickery, like, oh, well, if I just do step one, two, three, then I should achieve this end result. And Jesus longs for us to become healed, to become whole, but it's three steps forward and two steps back. And you're going to have good days and you're going to have bad days. So just be patient and be gentle with yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

Micah Davis: But practically speaking, I think one of the most important things that we can begin developing in our lives is a practice of confession.

And you may say, well, wait. I'm the one who was hurt. Why do I need to confess anything? But I think what confession does is it gives us the space and the ability to begin practicing these reconciling conversations. And so before we work on forgiving someone else, maybe we just start with ourselves. We look in the mirror and ask, Holy Spirit, is there anything within me that is out of alignment with who you are and what you're calling me to that I need to share?

And so really easy in terms of setting this up. Find someone trustworthy. So you already alluded to it, Jennifer. Find a friend, find a buddy, right? Think about who that person is. And then be specific. You don't have to get in the nitty-gritty details, but be specific about what it is that you're struggling with. And maybe you need to confess the very real hurt that's come up in the midst of this conversation. You're angry at someone and that anger has moved from righteous anger to unholy bitterness and resentment and it's, like, eating at you. Confess that.

And then finish with forgiveness. Ask the other person. One of my favorite ways to practice this is at the end -- I practice this with two other guys, and we always finish by saying, "Micah, you are forgiven," "Jake, you are forgiven," "Matt, you are forgiven." And just hearing those words allows us to walk in the freedom of forgiveness. Even if we're not there yet, again, practicing that regularly allows us to move in step with the wounded healer who longs for us to become people of reconciliation.

KC Wright: Oh, yes. He said it so beautifully. Just be gentle with yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Patient. It's a slow process. But I loved how practical he was, and it wasn't what I expected.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I'm with you on that. I know exactly what you mean.

And remember, he said we need to develop a practice of confession so, like, when we confess to God, it tunes our heart with reconciliation. So say it, you know, "Forgive me, God." And then find a trustworthy person that you can be specific with about your struggle -- your sin, your struggle, whatever it might be. Just pray together.

KC Wright: I love the way he ends his time with his friends. They tell each other, "You are forgiven."

This was so helpful today. So get his book. You can get one now at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/375, and you can enter to win one at Jennifer's Insta, @jennrothschild.

All right. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. We just love hanging out with you every single week. Thanks for hanging out, and thanks too so much for sharing the podcast with others. Until next week -- you know the drill -- whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC, you know what I thought I'd show you?

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: I'll give you an example of what happened that night.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Here's my iPhone. Let's see if the mic will catch it.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, Siri, text message KC Wright.

Siri: What do you want to say to KC?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, this speaker I'm listening to right now, Jennifer, is really good, but I wish she'd stop talking so that I could keep texting. And by the way, KC, your cologne smells really nice this morning, which I'm glad because we are shoved in the closet.

Siri: It says, Wow, this speaker I'm listening to right now, Jennifer, is really good, but I wish she'd stop talking so that I could keep texting. And by the way, KC, your cologne smells really nice this morning.

Jennifer Rothschild: Send it. Yes, that's what I got to hear basically the whole time I was speaking.

KC Wright: Ooh.