4:13 Podcast: Can I Choose Love? With Chip Ingram

Chip Ingram: In the last couple hundred years, and especially in the last probably six or seven decades, love has such romantic emotions and feelings. And by the way, I love all those feelings, and I want more and more of those feelings, so don't make this an either/or.

But the word "love," historically and biblically when God says that, it's like I love and I have such a loyalty and I have such a commitment, I have such a concern, that I would give my one and only Son, that so whoever who would respond in faith and receive this could have life and experience with me forever. So it's a love that led Jesus to the Cross, not necessarily just to have a good feeling.

Jennifer Rothschild: Victor Hugo once wrote that the greatest happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved. Just love for ourselves or, rather, loved in spite of ourselves. It's true, isn't it? Love is often merely the stuff of poetry, music, and romantic movies. But what if love is more than that? What if love is a choice?

Well, today author Chip Ingram is going to show us that love is something that you can choose to receive and you can choose to give. The love that you are going to learn about today is not emotionless, sterile, or stoic, but it is also not built on feelings or romantic notions. Curious yet? Mm-hmm, me too. We're gonna dive into Philippians 2 with Chip to understand this kind of love. And you do not want to miss one single word, so, KC, let's get this party started.

KC Wright: Let's go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends. I hope you've had a good week. KC and I have had a good week. We talked a little bit about it before we got on mic.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a good week around here, and so I hope that's the same for you. If you're new to us, I am Jennifer. And it's just two friends here in the podcast closet, shoved under the stairs, with one topic, which is love today, and zero stress.

KC Wright: Zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I'm telling you, you're about to love this so much. But anyway, you know, this whole podcast is based on Philippians 4:13. But we never want to take it out of context. It's true, you can do all things through Christ.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: That means you can choose love even when it's hard, because that whole chapter of Philippians 4 is talking about when things are good, when things are bad, we can experience contentment because we literally can do all things, not through our strength, but through Christ's.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah, choosing love might feel kind of cringy to you right now because there's somebody in your life that's like holy sandpaper to you. But you can choose love. But even more importantly, what I got from this convo, that you're about to experience, is, dudes, we can receive the unconditional love of God and -- oh, I can't wait for you to unpack this.

But I gotta tell you, KC, the whole time I'm talking with Chip, I kept having this image in my mind.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Our little Connor -- so we have two sons. They're born ten years apart. And so our little Connor was, oh, gosh, five or six years old. And he's going off to kindergarten, whatever age he was. Now, of course, I can't remember. But I pack his lunch for him every day. I think this is a big deal. And so -- now, I'm just saying, now I know a little more than I knew then. But back then it was an Uncrustable and Cheetos. Yeah, I tried to fill him up with as much artificial coloring and nitrates as possible. Additives, yes. Anyway, he turned out fine.

But -- and then a juice box. But then I would always take a napkin --

KC Wright: Yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I would write on it with a Sharpie just -- I would draw a heart and I would put -- then I'd write my name, "Mom." And that meant -- he knew that meant, "Love Mom. I love you."

KC Wright: Aw.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So he never really acknowledged it, and I thought, is he noticing it? So finally one day, it was probably a week into school, I said, "Connor, did you notice that Mommy writes on your napkins that I love you?" And he goes, "Yes, Mom." Now, you gotta understand Connor. He's always very logical. "Yes, Mom. And I really need to talk to you about that. I like you" -- not love you. "I like you and all" -- it was so cute.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: "I like you and all, and I love you" -- like he qualifies it, you know, 'cause --

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: But that's the kind of thinker he's always been. "I like you and I love you, but I don't want you to write on my napkins." And I was like, "What? Really? Why not?" 'Cause I'm thinking he's embarrassed, you know.

KC Wright: Right, right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. It was the most precious thing. 'Cause he's also a very thoughtful, emotional child. He said, "Because I don't want to throw your napkin away because then I feel like I'm throwing your love away, and our teacher makes us throw all our garbage away."

KC Wright: Oh, my word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Is that not the cutest thing?

KC Wright: That is. He did not want to throw your love away.

Jennifer Rothschild: He didn't want to throw my love away.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I was like, "Well, thank you, Connor. I won't write on your napkins anymore so you don't have to" --

KC Wright: Beyond precious.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was so cute.

KC Wright: Now he's married --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: -- giving that love to his beautiful wife.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, Chloe. I'm telling you. And he grew up to reflect that he's that kind of thoughtful man. But isn't that the cutest thing?

KC Wright: Adorable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So anyway...

We're not throwing love away --

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- around here. We're not taking it lightly. That's what you're about to experience. Chip's gonna unpack the kinds of love that we see in Scripture, the kinds of love we experience, but then he's gonna do a deep dive, as deep as we can in 30 minutes, into Philippians 2, one of my favorite chapters, to show you what this love looks like. So, y'all, one of the best. Let's get it going.

KC Wright: Chip Ingram is the teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, an international teaching and discipleship ministry. A pastor for more than 35 years, Chip is the author of many books including "I Choose Joy" and "Holy Ambition." Chip and his wife Theresa have four grown children and 12 grandchildren --

Jennifer Rothschild: The 12 Tribes of Ingram.

KC Wright: -- and they live in sunny California. All right, here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Here we go.

Well, my friends, I'm so glad you get to hear this conversation. I wish you had just gotten to pray with us because --what a beautiful ushering in of the Holy Spirit. So just buckle up, buttercups, this is going to be a good conversation, I can I can tell you right now.

So, Chip, we're going to talk about your newest book, "I Choose Love." So before we even get into the book, I think we need to define love because, you know, like right now, I'm drinking coffee. I love coffee. And my husband is in the other room. I love my husband. And clearly those are not the same kinds of love. So let's start off, Pastor, with you just describing what is love.

Chip Ingram: Well, you're right. Our English word covers everything from -- and by the way, I love coffee too, and I really love my wife, but that's --

Jennifer Rothschild: See?

Chip Ingram: -- that's way too big of a stretch.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: And in the Greek language, there's at least four or five words that help us understand love. And sort of the popular one today would -- you know, sexual romantic love is called eros love. And then we all have friends, right? You know, the City of Philadelphia, that's phileo love. And then there's family love. There's this blood connection. We grow up in these units, and that's storge love.

And there's a love that's the basis and the foundation of all love. It's God's love, it's agape love. And agape love is giving another person what they need the most, when they deserve it the least, at great personal cost. It's unilateral. It's not an emotion, it's not a feeling, it's a commitment to the other person's best welfare. And that's the way God loves us.

And when that becomes a part of the fabric of our thinking and how we love -- if you can imagine sort of a pyramid, and it's the foundation. And then we learn family love, and then we learn, you know, this friendship love. And then, Lord willing, if so we desire, God will allow us to find that right person and experience all those kinds of love along with the eros love that he's reserved for us in our marriage relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's good. And you're right, English, we just don't have that ability to communicate that one word with such nuance.

But I'm curious, just for those who may be new to Scripture, so, like, when we read John 3:16, "For God so loved the world," when we read about the love of God, is it always agape that we're reading about? Is that that kind of love?

Chip Ingram: Almost always, yes. In that particular verse especially, it is the love of God. In fact, that word is so -- in the last couple hundred years, and especially in the last probably six or seven decades, love has such romantic emotions and feelings. And by the way, I love all those feelings, and I want more and more of those feelings. So don't make this an either/or.

But the word "love" historically and biblically, when God says that, it's like, I love and I have such a loyalty and I have such a commitment, I have such a concern that I would give my one and only Son that -- so whoever would respond in faith and receive this could have life and experience with me forever. So it's a love that led Jesus to the Cross, not necessarily just have a good feeling.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So let's circle back to feelings, because we all feel them. You know, sometimes they're confusing, sometimes they're affirming, sometimes we just don't know what to do with them.

Okay. So if love is not a feeling, even though perhaps it might manifest in some feelings, I want you to unpack that. So let's say love is technically not a feeling. It's a choice. Explain how we figure that out, Chip. Because there are feelings where we don't like somebody, and there's feelings where we are like -- you know, got the little sparkly dazzle in our tummy over somebody.

Chip Ingram: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's unpack that. How is it a choice and not a feeling but still has feelings?

Chip Ingram: Boy, that's a good question. I've never heard it put to me quite like that.

Well, first of all, premise is is that our feelings are not reality. How I feel isn't necessarily what's real or true. It's a chemical reaction in my brain that causes emotions. And, you know, sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad; sometimes they're accurate, sometimes they're not.

And so when we're talking about God's love, we're talking about a kind of love that's steady, unchanging. It's volitional. In other words, let's just say your boyfriend, your girlfriend, your husband, your wife, your best friend does something that makes you mad or hurts your feelings. Your emotions can react like, boy, that hurt and that stung, and my initial feelings are I don't want to be around them right now.

And then you kind of step back and you realize, you know, we've gone through a lot together. They're really a wonderful person. You know, they said that, or I've said things like that, I'm not going to allow that to be the basis of our relationship. I'm going to choose to move toward them. I'm going to forgive them. And I might even bring up and say, Because I care, because I love, I don't feel real good about it, but could you help me understand why you said that? Or, You may have not meant anything, but that really hurt my feelings.

I think that's how these things play out where we don't let our feelings dominate and direct our life, we have something much more powerful. And yet we acknowledge that we feel very strongly and wonderfully at times toward people, and at the same time I can -- from personal experience, you can feel really bad feelings towards someone --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: -- even if you happen to be married to them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Well, no -- I'm sorry -- I have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, that's being human.

I'm curious too, Chip, your thoughts of this. So if there are these different kinds of love that are expressed in the Greek language, are they -- because they're all as God intended. Eros, storge, phileo, they're all as God intended. We should have those love relationships. Yet, are they in and of themselves complete without agape?

Chip Ingram: No, they're really not, because all those things don't have the ability to sustain us. In other words, we live in a world, whether it's a romance novel or a Hallmark movie or what's -- an athletic performance, wondering if I could just be like Steph Curry or if I could just accomplish that. We're asking of romantic love and even family love and friendship love to come through for us 100% of the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: We have been made and we long to be deeply loved just for who we are, with our faults, with our hurts, with our up days and our bad days, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And only God's agape love loves us like that, and the only thing that can sustain those relationships is God's agape love working in us. Otherwise, you know, when someone makes me feel bad, you're off my list. I'm going to cancel you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: Or, you know what? You've hurt my feelings three or four times now, I'm going to look for a new person. Or, you know, my mom and dad didn't come through for me, so I feel like I'm an unworthy person. I must not be worth much or they wouldn't have treated me that way.

God's love is a covenant love, a forgiving love. It's a volitional -- it's a choosing love. That gives us agency. See, what I see, Jennifer, is that so many people are waiting around for -- they know they want to be loved. Would someone love me? Would someone care for me? I need to belong. Would someone just accept me just for who I am. And when things or people or success can't deliver on that, we get in this vicious cycle of the next person or the next thing or the next business or the next accomplishment or the next trip and we just find ourselves longing and longing and longing and keep coming up empty.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's like trying to get the next sugar rush and --

Chip Ingram: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, when God's agape does stabilize us. That's good. Good differentiation. I appreciate that.

All right. So if we understand, then, the essential nature of the agape love of God that is toward us and to us and through us, okay, you organize your book, then, around these four characteristics of love: that it gives, it serves, it obeys, and it cares. All right, so that's four things. Could you just briefly kind of unpack each of those. Tell us what that looks like in real life.

Chip Ingram: Yes. And for those listening, the book is based on the absolute clearest, most wonderful, amazing picture of agape love, I think, in all of Scripture. Certainly all the Gospels give the narrative of God's love through Jesus. But in Philippians 2, we have a description of Jesus' love for us. And, you know, it talks about although he existed in the form -- and the word there means "in the very nature of God" -- he didn't regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant. And then he obeys even to the point of going to the Cross.

And as you listen to this description of Jesus, what you realize is, first, he gives his life. Second, rather than being focused on himself, he serves us. And third, when the emotions -- I mean, in the garden, he was fully God, but he was fully human. In his emotions he did not feel like going to the Cross. And so he chooses to obey to give us what we need the most, when we deserve it the least, at great personal cost. And then finally, he does all that because he cares. And then the rest of the chapter is Paul's embracing that kind of love. And he sends Timothy to help people because he cares. And the only reason he can send Timothy is because he happens to care.

And so those four characteristics in Chapter 2 of Philippians -- and it's a very practical exposition of it, but it gives us very specific ways where we can emulate, by the power of the Holy Spirit, this kind of love in all of our relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm so glad you've done that. In fact, that's one of my favorite chapters in the whole Bible. And we're going to visit it in a second again, but I want us to think through -- so love gives. Sometimes we give because we get something. It's transactional. We know there's going to be a blessing or a benefit or a regard or whatever. So sometimes that's why we give. But love does not give with that kind of motivation. So you explain in that section of the book what the Platinum Rule is. Okay? Tell us what that is and how that impacts the way we love.

Chip Ingram: Well, the Golden Rule, obviously, you know, Jesus taught it -- many other world religions -- but do unto others as you would like or have them do unto you.

And when the Apostle Paul is describing what Jesus did, he basically calls this group of people -- by the way, the context is there's external persecution and there's internal conflict. So that sounds a lot like today, right? There's a lot of hassle and pain and difficulty and economics and war and challenges out there. And then in a lot of homes and friendships and churches and small groups, there's a lot of conflict. And so in the midst of that, the Apostle Paul says -- you know, the Platinum Rule is give unto others the way that God has already given unto you.

A quick story that might make this helpful to people. Both my wife and I came from alcoholic homes. We both came to Christ as adults. We both came to that point where it's all Jesus. I mean, we are all in, and we just want to be who you want us to be. And so we meet. And she'd been through a challenging past as an unbeliever, was abandoned, had these two little kids. I had the privilege of marrying her, later adopting the kids. And we are -- so we pack up everything in a car, we're going to go to seminary and share the love of Jesus with the world.

Six months in, she's making me nuts. I'm making her nuts. We have unbelievable conflict. We don't know how to communicate, we don't know how to resolve conflict. So it's like six or seven months, we're here to prepare to help people learn how to love the way God loves, and now I find myself in a very good Christian counselor's office trying to figure out how can this person that I love so much, and that Jesus loves so much, and she loves Jesus so much, could make me so crazy. And apparently I made her the same. And I sat in these counseling sessions and, you know, we learned some tools about communicating and some skills. But deeply rooted in my mind is if she would just change this, this, and this, things would be so much better. And in her mind, she just simply thought, well, if he would just change A, B, and C, then we would be so much better.

And I kept waiting for her to change, and she waited for me to change. And then we played that ping pong game. When she changes X, Y, and Z, then I'll start changing some of the things I'm hearing in this counseling. And it kind of came to the end of myself. And to be very, very vulnerable, when you get hurt and when you get wounded, and when it's by someone that you love very much -- because the people you love the most can hurt you the most.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: And I had gotten where my heart had got hard and I didn't want to be around her. And I didn't want to love her, I didn't want to hug her, I didn't want to move forward. And I didn't call it the Platinum Rule back then, but in the context of this counseling, I finally came to, Lord, I need to treat my wife, Theresa, the way that you have treated me, which is really the Platinum Rule.

You have been forgiving and merciful to me. You have extended grace and generosity and kindness when I've not been responsive at all. And so, Lord, here's the deal. We don't have a Plan B. I don't believe in divorce. You don't believe in divorce. Certainly, I mean, there are conditions. She was abandoned by an unbeliever and she got a divorce. He ran off with another woman. So I'm not saying that's never, but for us as believers, without some sort of huge moral problem, Plan A is marriage, Plan B is marriage, Plan C is marriage.

So since I can't get out of this -- I mean, that's really what I felt -- then here's what I'm gonna do. I can't do it for her, because my emotions are so wounded. I'm ticked off at her. But I will choose to give her what she needs, not because I want to give it to her, but I'm going to do it as an act of worship to you, Lord.

I'm going to sit down and have these conversations where I listen for 15 minutes. I'm going to -- I have no idea what doing the dishes, helping around the house has anything to do with love, but I'm going to start some activities and I'm going to do what I don't feel like doing, not because I even want to, but I'm going to do it in my response to you in worship.

And, of course, those who've been in this situation understand. As I gave away what I didn't even feel like giving away, giving her what she needed the most, when in my mind she deserved it the least, and in my perspective, at great personal cost. It wasn't like she jumped into my arms in two weeks and everything was wonderful. Okay? So let's -- no silver bullets out there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Realistic here, yeah.

Chip Ingram: But the relationship started to shift. And as I willfully chose agape love to love her, there was a rekindling of our friendship that led to a rekindling of our romance, that led to a complete healing and restoration. And that kind of love is what heals friendships and heals marriages, and it's the power of God where we choose to love that repairs things. And so that is kind of what's been this connection between these kinds of love.

And the Platinum Rule is, I need to love people the way Jesus loves people. If they look different, if they're from a different political party, if they tick me off, if I disagree with their lifestyle. It doesn't mean we agree with everyone. It doesn't mean there aren't some boundaries set if there's been abuse or something. But it means by the power of God, I'm not a victim. I have agency. I'm going to choose to love the way Jesus loved me. And every time I do that, he will give me the power to do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's where it comes from.

Chip Ingram: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is Christ in us. You know, it reminds me, Stormie Omartian talked about forgiveness, and it applies. You know, she said when you forgive someone, it doesn't make them right, it makes you free. Well, the same applies when you choose love. It doesn't mean the person deserves it. Well, we don't deserve it from God either. But it doesn't mean we give it because people deserve it, it's because it makes us free. It just gives us that -- the joy that comes from the Lord.

I remember we had a -- I won't even say their gender -- but a human person who worked for us many years ago, and supposedly a believer, and they falsely accused us of something. And it was so clearly a lie, and I, of course, was furious and angry and I wanted to destroy the human and -- as much as I could, you know, to protect our reputation, but also because it was just unjust. It was wrong. And I will never forget, Chip, how hard it was for me to love and forgive until the Lord reminded me of what you're talking about.

I didn't deserve the forgiveness of Christ, I didn't deserve the love of Jesus, and he gave it to me freely. And so I did not still have relationship with that human, but in my heart I was able to pray for their best. I chose love. But that's only through the power of the Holy Spirit.

But I'm not sure we can do it -- and this -- I want your opinion. I'm not sure we can really do it unless we humble ourselves. And when you look at Philippians 2, that's what Jesus did. He humbled himself, taking on the very form of a servant. We don't come before God and receive the love that we need to -- that transforms us that we can give except -- we've got to have humility. What's your opinion about the connection of unconditional love and humility?

Chip Ingram: Well, I think I write in the book or in some notes that humility is the channel through which the supernatural power of God's love flows to heal our deepest hurts and restore our most important relationships. At the core of almost every relational challenge somewhere is pride. My rights, my way. And by the way, I -- believe me, I get it.

And I had a little prompting from the Holy Spirit. You shared something that I think -- especially among those who might be listening that are followers of Christ. Betrayal. And whether it's a mate or especially from another Christian, I think is the most painful thing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Chip Ingram: -- of all that I've ever been through as a follower of Jesus. I mean, people who, you know, you did ministry with, you shared life with, you did things with, and then you experience this. And like you, I had anger fantasies. I mean, I had --

Jennifer Rothschild: Big time, yeah.

Chip Ingram: -- pictures in my mind of telling them off and doing something that would embarrass them or getting back at them. And, I mean, it will eat you up. And I remember -- just what your words were -- I can't remember -- it was a friend at a restaurant telling me, take the high road, and trying to counsel me out of all the legal opportunities I had that I knew were wrong. But they were just.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Chip Ingram: I remember this picture came to my mind, Jennifer, of mercy is God withholding from me what I deserve. Grace has given me what I don't deserve. And then it's like freely you've received, freely give. Doesn't mean take them off the hook, doesn't mean there's, you know, not consequences and multiple things. But are you willing to release them, be merciful to them the way God's been merciful to you?

And as you said, I would wake up in the middle of the night with anger. I mean, it was eating me up, and it was in that moment. And then it's not enough to intellectually do that. And you said something else that I think is the key and might be why some people tuned in today. You have to start praying for them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Chip Ingram: And I started praying like, Help them to see the error of their way. Help them to repent.

Jennifer Rothschild: Help them to confess, yes.

Chip Ingram: You know, have lightning strike just in front of them. Don't hit them, but -- you know. And then God showed me, you know, those aren't really the kind of -- you know, in Romans 12 it says, "Bless those who persecute you; bless, and curse not." And God works in their heart.

And then I was beginning to pray, Oh Lord, would you give them a great marriage and, Lord, would you help him or her to be a good parent. And I -- it took two years, and I kept praying. I committed that every time I took the Lord's Supper, I would never take it before I prayed for these individuals who betrayed me.

And someone came from out of town after about a year and shared something. It was -- and they were involved in ministry as well. And it was like a good report. And, you know, I did the good pastoral thing, I smiled and said, "Oh, that's great." And in my heart, it was like, that stinks, you know. Why are you blessing them? You know, God reminded me, Well, aren't you praying for that?

And, you know, fast forward, it was about a year later, and someone came by and said, "Oh, you know, these mutual friends, you can't believe this great thing has happened to them." And my immediate reaction was I rejoiced.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Chip Ingram: And what I realized was to forgive is a point in time. It's a choice and it's action. Forgiving is a process. You pray for them and you continue to pray. And then forgiven is when you can actually hear something about them and say, great, it's done.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow, that's a -- that's hard. And that's a --

Chip Ingram: Yes, it is.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- word right there. But I appreciate it so much because you're right. I mean, I'll be honest, when my human got COVID, I was a little bit secretly happy, you know. And then had to repent because that is a person made in the image of God and -- you know.

Boy, you talk about -- sometimes I think, Chip, God is merciful to allow us to feel the crucible of this stuff, because it reveals who we are. It reveals our greatest need. And our greatest need is to receive the humility of Christ and the love of God, and then to give it -- through humility give the love of God to others.

Which reminds me -- you know, in Philippians 2 there's a concept that you talk about. Because Jesus clearly, of all who could have held on to his rights and equality with God, he did not have to. He had no legal reason that he had to sacrifice himself and become a servant and do what he did. But there's a Greek word in Philippians 2 that I would love for you to explain to us, that I think is such a demonstration of this agape love. Kenosis. Give us an understanding of what kenosis is.

Chip Ingram: Well, it is a big theological word. You know, Paul is -- the context goes something like this. He basically says if God has done -- this is the Chip Ingram super loose translation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Chip Ingram: So those of you that have your Bible near go, oh, okay, I get it. But in general what he was saying is, Hey, look, people, if God has ever done anything, if you have any encouragement, any love, if he's done anything at all for you, and the premise is yes, yes, yes, yes, he has, then be of the same mind, be of the same heart, treat one another well. Agree to disagree on minor things, but be on the same page about all that really, really matters.

And then he says this. That they should consider others more important than themselves. And then he says have this attitude in Christ Jesus. Have this attitude in yourself, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality to be grasped, but -- here's our word -- but kenosis, or emptied himself. And what Jesus did was he veiled. He didn't lose any of his deity. He was perfect humanity and perfect deity, but he veiled his attributes. He didn't take full advantage as a human being of all of his attributes. And so what he did is he purposely limited himself so he could experience life the way we do. He could experience what it was like to feel tired and be thirsty with the woman at the well.

In Hebrews it says that multiple times he cried out to the Father with tears. He understood what it felt like to be disappointed, obviously to be betrayed, to see hurt and injustice and pain all around him, and so he descended into greatness.

In the little section of the book -- because I think people want to be more loving. I took what Jesus did and I gave people out of this passage kind of three things to become a more loving person. And they're not the kind of things -- you know, we think, okay, I'll just be nicer, warmer.

And here's the three things...

Number one, choose to declare war on selfishness. He says, "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit," that idea of it's all about me.

Second, attack the root problem of selfishness, which is pride. You know, that it's about me, you know, how I look, what people say about me. You know, where I'm going is more important, so why did that person cut in on me? And it's I have to dominate the conversation. I'm the center of attention. Why didn't anybody come up and say hi to me? You know, it's this unbelievable focus that we all have on ourselves.

And then the third is to practice humility daily by putting the needs of others ahead of your own.

And maybe a very brief story. Because I found that as I grew in Christ, you know, a lot of the external things changed, but I didn't realize how full of myself I was. And I was one of those people that was kind of always in a hurry, you know, the person who's weaving in and out of traffic and walking into the bank or the grocery store and evaluating which line, the last guy before, you know, all this TSA, to jump on the plane, because what I was doing was so important, so important, so important.

And I had a wise mentor sit down with me, and he said, "Chip, do you know what one of your major problems is?" Because I was overwhelmed and feeling, you know, like I can't handle all this. He says, "Your problem is much deeper than your schedule. You have a great and significant case of grandiosity." And I said, "What?" I'd never even heard that word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: He said, "Yeah. Grandiosity is this unconscious sense that you and what you're doing is more important. When you drive like that, you're unconsciously assuming that where you need to go is so much more important than everyone else. When you get in a line or you see that you need to be first, or why aren't you treated differently, you unconsciously think that what you're about and what you're doing is more important than other people." And then he said, "Would you really like to change?" And I was almost afraid to respond.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Chip Ingram: And I said, "Yes, I really would." And he said, "Let me give you a spiritual practice that I think will really help you." And this may sound crazy. I did this for two years. He said, "I want you to start -- you know the two lanes, the right lane is the slow lane?" He said, "If you really look at it, you weave in and out and it might save you 30 seconds over a three-mile trip, you know. And that person who was in the right lane -- I want you to drive in the right lane. I want you to go into the bank or go into the grocery store and I want you to choose the longest line. And then I want you to stand in it. I want you to observe people and just see what's going on in their life and what might be happening in their life." And it was like -- because I was rushing and pushing and overwhelmed and burning out. And I went into training.

Another thing he had me do is he had me analyze how many questions were I asking people versus the percentage of how much I talked or the percentage of how much they talked. And unfortunately, it was about 80/20 me speaking. And those are just symptoms that -- what I have to say and what I think and it matters. But it matters more in an unhealthy way.

And I will have to tell you, Jennifer, one of the greatest changes in my life, and the stress came down and the sensitivity went up. But it wasn't just trying hard. Trying hard doesn't bring about life change. It's a good starter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: You have to go into training. And Jesus modeled a descending into putting others' needs ahead of his own, even to the point -- not just a servant, but the word is for, like, the lowest servant in the household. And not just when he feels like it, but he obeyed even to the point of death on a Cross.

And I think this book and the model of Jesus for those who say, I really do want to love well. I want to be the kind of mom, the kind of dad, the kind of friend, the kind of mate, the kind of student that others would say, "I would love to become like you. You so reflect Jesus." This passage and this book is my shot in a practical way to say how do you go into training to get there?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. You know what I'm hearing you saying too is this one choice of loving, the agape love, it's almost like a template you put over your whole life, and it starts to seep in and change everything about you, your motivation, your heart, your home, your career, your life, this world, your little part of the kingdom where you walk and stomp out some darkness. I mean, it's really a beautiful picture. And I'm just so thankful you made it a good training resource for us, because you're right, it's not one and done, Pastor. It is not one and done. It is a constant training.

So let's just get us, though, to our last question. Because some listeners, like me, are really contemplating a lot right now. And I love that. But I'm also mindful that some of them have been hurt. Some are really -- they've got some bitterness because that man or that co-worker, or whatever it is, or that parent, somebody's really hurt them. And then there's some who've got, like, this real pile of regret and they're like, Well, I'm, you know, decades into my life, I've got less left to live than I've already lived and I've got so much regret. So choosing love at this point seems so hard because, you know, bitterness is a habit. Pride is -- it's very satisfying to our flesh. So, like, it just feels nearly impossible to choose love. So what is the first thing that they can do, when this podcast ends, Chip, to really begin to choose love?

Chip Ingram: The very first thing you can do is to recognize you cannot give what you do not have. Or as one of my other mentors used to say, you cannot impart what you do not possess. And the focus -- rather than what you need to give on how you need to change, if you could shift your focus to say, I need to grasp how deeply, how unconditionally, how amazingly God loves me. That while I was yet a sinner, while I was the enemy of God, he loved me.

And so I think the very first steps is to say, you know, I don't know people's practices, but God expresses his love through his Word, he expresses it through his Spirit, and he expresses it through his people. And I think I would just, in open arms and maybe with your palms up, say, Lord, I want to be a loving person. I need to experience and feel and know your love like never before.

And then I would encourage them to just make it a habit to get in the Scriptures, even if it's only five or ten minutes every day, but not with "I read a chapter" or "I got that done." Oh, God, reveal yourself to me.

And then do life a friend, someone you can really trust and say, I'm on this journey. I want to experience God's love so I could express that to others.

And then finally, it's an amazing thing, is that whatever you give away, you get back. And whether you feel like it or not, I would think of some people that it's hard to love and kind of choose -- even if you need to do it so they don't know it's you because of some things and -- but it's a card, it's a small gift, it's bringing coffee to coworkers. It's just some baby actions. It's letting someone in in traffic. It's taking some baby steps to say, I want to start giving away what God has given me. And if this book could be sort of a guide or a path to that, great. We just love to help in any way we can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, our friends, you just cannot give what you do not have. As Chip said, you cannot impart what you don't possess. So let's shift our focus, right? Let's say, I need to grasp how much God loves me.

KC Wright: Yes. The first step is to really internalize that God loves me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And we do that through his Word, his Spirit, and his people.

This has been another great 4:13. So go to the Show Notes when you can, 413podcast.com/401, to read the full transcript there and get connected with Chip's book. And we'll also have some other past podcasts there, including one from Shanti Feldhahn about kindness and love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It was a super good one, like how to practically, you know, apply this kind of love. And, you know, I was also thinking we'll have a link to my Hosea Bible study. I did a Bible study on the prophet Hosea, and I'm just telling you, I can't think of a better example of agape love than the book of Hosea.

So our people, you are loved. Remember that, KC and I love you. And what you give, you get. That means you give some love, you're gonna get it back. All right. So receive the love of Jesus, show love, do all the things that you're called to do, because you can. You can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: Woo!

Jennifer Rothschild: KC, I was thinking when my daddy -- he used to -- he could not sing. But he would try to sing with us as little kids, love is like a magic penny. Have you ever heard that?

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) You hold it tight and you don't have any; but if you spend it, you got so many that they roll all over the floor.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was great, yeah. All right, that was enough.