4:13 Podcast: Can I Survive an Unwanted Divorce? With Lysa TerKeurst [Episode 386]

Lysa TerKeurst: The journey of easing the ache of that sorrow is going from the grief stage of denial, like I can't believe this is happening; to getting into a place of accepting this happened; accepting I'm not going to get the answers to all those questions; accepting even if I got the answers to those questions, I probably wouldn't agree with them anyways; and accepting the fact that I have to make the decision at some point to detach my ability to heal from the other person ever owning what they did, saying they're sorry, and having that epic conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: A failed marriage does not make you a failure in God's eyes. When Lysa TerKeurst experienced the unwanted death of her 30-year marriage, she didn't even know who to turn to or what would actually help her. She needed to get her bearings on what the Bible really says about marriage and divorce, and she also needed the tools to work through this fallout that she was walking through. Well, now she offers you the resource that she wishes she had.

So in this conversation, Lysa is going to answer some of your toughest questions like does God hate divorce? And, like, how can I move forward if I'm divorced? And what about the anger? How can I get over the anger that I still feel?

So whether you are in the throes of a divorce, or maybe you're still processing a marriage that was lost years ago, or maybe you're walking with someone who's in the middle of a devastating season, you are going to find the hope, empathy, and truth that you need. So let's get it going.

KC Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, good good -- I was going to say morning, but you might be listening somewhere else. KC and I are here in the closet, and it's morning, so good morning.

KC Wright: Good afternoon, good evening, good night.

Jennifer Rothschild: And good evening. We're so glad you're with us. I'm Jennifer, and my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" live along with me and KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. Here we are in the closet. And you know the drill. It is two friends, one topic and zero stress, which is good. Because the nature of this conversation, some of you might think, oh, no, I don't want to listen to this. Listen, you do want to listen to this --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because this is a hopeful conversation and a practical and comforting and empathetic conversation. It's not going to bring you down, it is going to lift you up and give you what you need.

We're still in a new year. As long as it's January, to me it's new year. And so I've already told you about a couple new things, you know, like Palm Beach Atlantic is one of our partners. I told you last week also a new thing. I have a tattoo. If you don't know, you'll have to go back and listen.

But let me tell you another new thing, KC.

KC Wright: Yeah. Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: This year I am doing a tour. It's called the Hope of Heaven Tour. You can find some links on the Show Notes. But we're going to be in the southeast first of all in March, in Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina. So if you're in that area, it'll be me and Kelly Minter and Point of Grace. And we want you guys to come join us.

It's just going to be one evening in different churches, and we're going to be talking about the hope of heaven and how to live it now. So check out the Show Notes because that's a new thing also for this year.

Anything else new this year, KC?

KC Wright: I love all things new.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do too.

KC Wright: I love that his mercies are new this morning because we used up all of yesterday.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we did. They evaporate.

KC Wright: Well, I'm just so excited about the Hope For Heaven tour.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's going to be cool.

KC Wright: It's going to be amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's going to be very cool.

Okay. I can't think of anything else. Oh, I can tell you one thing that happened yesterday.

KC Wright: Okay. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because we're recording on a Monday right now. So I was at church yesterday, and all the little grandkids were sick. And so we picked up one of them to bring him to church, little John Robert. And John Robert is hilarious. He is the one who wants to grow up and be a Pokémon. He informed me yesterday that he is too old for PAW Patrol. Yes. He's four.

Okay. So we are leaving church, and it's just he and Pops and me. And Pops is trying to train these little boys to be gentlemen, so he's like, "John Robert, go open the door." Well -- so John Robert's already running up there to open the door for us. He holds it open for me. And as I walked through, I said, "John Robert, thank you so much for holding the door open for me." And he said, "It's okay. I like you. I will do that for a week."

Okay. Well, my statute of limitations on being liked will only be for a week. But, yeah, that's why he did it, because he likes me. He will do that for a week. I just laughed out loud. I said, "Well, thank you, darling. That's so sweet."

KC Wright: So cute.

Jennifer Rothschild: "Maybe we can renew our commitment next week and the week after also."

KC Wright: We could do a whole podcast on the things kids say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's great. It's great.

KC Wright: I remember once Elliana hopping in the car, picked her up at her little elementary school, and she informed me that she had told all of her classmates, including her teacher, that she was an Indian. And I said, "Elly, baby girl, you're not an Indian." And she said, "Well, you said I was born in Carmel, Indiana."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. That's awesome.

KC Wright: Because she was born in Indiana --

Jennifer Rothschild: She's an Indian.

KC Wright: -- girlfriend thought she was an Indian.

Jennifer Rothschild: She's an Indian. Well, she's obviously very smart. I love that.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Someone else who's smart is Lysa. We're about to talk to her. And I like her for more than a week. So do you. We like her forever.

All right, let's introduce Lysa.

KC Wright: Lysa TerKeurst is the President of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of eight New York Times bestsellers, including "I Want to Trust You, But I Don't," "Good Boundaries and Goodbyes" -- which I recommend to everybody in my life -- "Forgiving What You Can't Forget" -- another gold star book -- and "It's Not Supposed To Be This Way." Lysa is now remarried. She and her husband, Chaz, enjoy life with their blended family of seven kids and a whole crew of really fun grandkids.

Now, settle in for this life-changing, hopeful conversation with Jennifer and Lysa.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, Lysa, we've been friends forever, and I've watched your life, and most of us know that you have survived a very unwanted divorce. So we're going to start with, like, the most awkward, uncomfortable, and hard question. Okay? So what do you say --

Lysa TerKeurst: Let's do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? Let's get it out of the way. What do you say to somebody who says, "Oh, but God hates divorce"? Start there.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, I would say -- you know, I'm passionate about God's Word, so I'm sure that you would welcome the opportunity. Let's open up the Bible and let's really examine that verse. And I think if they were using ESV, CSB, or NIV, I think they might be a little stunned to see that Malachi 2:16 doesn't actually say, "God hates divorce."

What it says in my NIV Bible is, "When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord." That's a pretty extreme departure from, "God hates divorce."

And, you know, I don't say that to bring any kind of discreditation upon the other person or in any way to shame them, but I think it's just really important -- sometimes phrases that we say or incorrect interpretations of verses are so widely used that we make assumptions without checking them out for ourselves. So my encouragement would be let's check it out.

So that verse actually -- the interpretation of the verse "God hates divorce," we get that from the King James Version. And that's not the first version of the Bible, so we can't use that as the original text to go back to. So we go back to the Hebrew Bible. And if you were to hand the Hebrew scholar Malachi 2:16 in Hebrew, they would go, ooh, that's a tough one.

So then a lot of clarification was brought when the Septuagint came about, which is the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, and that's where we get the clarity that I believe is the correct interpretation of this verse. And the direction of the hatred is very important.

The direction of the hatred and what's actually being addressed is not God's hatred toward the people getting divorced, it's not God's hatred toward, in my case, the woman who's been devastated by the decisions of another person. The direction of the hatred is actually when the man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect.

So I would say, you know, let's open up the text. Let's make sure that we're not weaponizing verses or heaping more hurt and pain on people and let's really dive into what the Bible actually does and does not say about this very delicate and heartbreaking topic, divorce.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's good. And, you know, that can be applied to everything scripturally. We always need to just not assume and check it out for ourselves, because the Holy Spirit is the ultimate teacher. I'm so glad we clarified that right up front.

And so that leads me to just this whole line of thought. So I'm curious, were there some things that were said to you -- with the process of finally having to get a divorce, were there some things that were just harmful and difficult that people said to you during this time for you?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. You know, one of the statements that was so painful for me is, "Well, you know, Lysa, there's always two sides to every story." And I get the sentiment of where they're trying to get to, you know, but I just think this isn't a spectator sport. Why are we picking sides?

I mean, this is a family that's being devastated. So why don't we just go to the ones being hurt by the decisions of another person and let's just start there. Let's don't spend time trying to pick sides, because that can just cause a lot of pain. So again, I get the human reality of the sentiment of that statement, but I also think we have to be very careful that we don't look at marriage and all marriages and treat them the same.

My good friend Leslie Vernick taught me something so profound. She said, You know, Lysa, there's a big difference between a difficult marriage which we should fight for, and that's when we go to conferences and get counseling and seek to fight for that marriage in every way that we possibly can, when there's two people that are willing to come together and work on that marriage. But there's a big difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage.

And when you enter into that destructive patterns of abuse and addiction and adultery and abandonment, you know, we cannot take garden variety difficult marriage advice and just put it on someone who's in a destructive situation, because it's a whole different ball game, and so we have to treat it as a completely different scenario.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And the way you said it's not a spectator sport, sadly, people get really pumped up about gossip and drama. And sadly, a divorce, a family falling apart, is not a spectator sport. I'm glad you made that so very clear. And we can't lay a blanket template on it all. I think just the whole concept of just let's be people of grace and be quick to listen and slow to speak is such an important mandate for all of us.

And on that same note, Lysa, in your book you write about the misguided messages that Christian women often receive about being a godly wife. Okay, so let's talk about that.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Well, I think it's important for me to say in no way, shape, or form do I ever want to glorify divorce. I don't. I am very pro-marriage. I'm not pro-divorce.

But the reality is in some situations -- what I was taught is respect your husband, and that meant respect him in every way at all times. And, you know, we do want to honor what is honorable, but we don't want to honor what is dishonorable. And so there's such a fine line between loving in respect to your husband, which is what we absolutely should do, there's a fine line between that and inadvertently enabling bad behavior.

You know, Jesus modeled for us that we are to lay our life down for others. Jesus did that. He laid his life down for others. But Jesus laid down his life to accomplish a high and holy purpose. He did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue. So I think we need to take a real individual look at individual situations, peel back the curtain, and let's look at what's really going on, because you don't want to encourage a wife to respect her husband and she takes it to the point where she's enabling things like abuse, you know.

And I know we have to handle it so delicately, but there are real dynamics happening in real marriages all around us, and I think we need to be concerned that we don't elevate the institution of marriage over the health and well-being of the individual image bearers of Christ.

And again I say that with such delicate -- I hope you can hear the delicate tension in my voice. Do we need to hold the institution of marriage up as sacred? Yes. And as honorable? Yes. God intended marriage to be a beautiful picture between Christ and his bride. But at the same time, we don't want to take the institution of marriage and say that that is more important than the image bearers of Christ that are in that marriage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, when you think about it, since you conjured that's what the picture is, it's of Christ and the church. If Christ were the groom and the church is the bride, Christ is not abusive. He did not abandon. And so he did not create destruction in the relationship, he brought life. And so, yeah, to elevate it higher than us being his children and the image bearers and the holiness of who he is would do a disservice to the purpose of marriage.

So one of the things you write in your book, Lysa -- and by the way, I do hear this delicate tension in your voice. We all do. And so I will reiterate, I understand and agree that you are pro-marriage and this is a sad reality that sometimes there are unwanted divorces. And so in your book you talk about -- I want to just go a little further with this -- that respecting him should not mean that you cover things up for him. And is that what you're talking about when you say enabling? When we cover things up, is that enabling? Kind of help us understand that even a little more.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. So part of respecting him can be holding some things private. But there's a big difference between holding some things private and keeping secrets. Holding some things private is for the sake of healing. So we don't want to be disrespectful and, like, go out and tell the whole world about the struggles of our husband. That would not be honoring. But again, is he on the path of healing so that we're not hiding?

So yes, we can hold some things private for the sake of healing. But we don't want to keep secrets, which is a completely different thing, and it's for the purpose of hiding, which then enables bad behavior to continue.

And, Jennifer, I got this wrong, you know, for many years in my marriage, and I wish -- looking back now, I wish I would have not told the whole world about what was going on, but I wish that I would have confided in some safe people who could have helped me bring some of this out into the light so that I didn't suffer alone in the darkness. And again, that doesn't mean telling everyone. It means picking a few safe people who are equipped to give wise advice in the specific dynamics at play.

So for me, that would have been I needed to get some wise advice from people who understood addictions. I needed to get some wise advice so that I could see that these weren't isolated mistakes, but these were patterns of behavior that we kept cycling through, creating chaos and dysfunction. And I needed help to see things clearly, that I was just so confused.

You know, there was also a lot of gaslighting at play, which is when we're told that we don't see what we see, we don't hear what we heard, we don't experience what we've experienced, and that gaslighting can start to make you feel crazy. If you are in a relationship and you start questioning your sanity and you start saying, "Gosh, am I the crazy one?" that is a huge red flag that you need to get other wise people who are trained to help you clearly see what's really going on.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. And I think I read that -- I don't know if it was in your book. I read something that you had said that kind of this book is what you wish you had had when you were in the middle of this. And is that because you add -- you give us some of that very practical? Like that phrase right there, if you think you're the crazy one all the time, then that's a red flag. So is that the kind of stuff that this book kind of guides a woman through if she's in -- or a man, if they're in the midst of an unwanted divorce?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. And it can certainly go both ways. I think that's an important point to make. The picture I give people, Jennifer, is when I was hit with the reality that my then husband was living a double life, I felt as if I had been in the equivalent of a physical head-on collision and, like, some part of my body had been severed, you know. Because when you're walking through the death of your marriage, there's a severing.

The difference was if I had been in a car accident and there was a physical severing, everybody would have known what to do. They would have known, call 911. The emergency workers would have been there. They would have put a tourniquet on me so I wasn't bleeding out, they would have given me medicine to help numb the excruciating pain, they would have taken me to the hospital, the doctors would have taken me into surgery. And there would have been a gentle approach to the medical realities of the kind of trauma that I had been through so people wouldn't expect you to return emails and live life normally for a while, you know.

So that was happening to me, but it was in the emotional sense. And people don't know necessarily what to do when there's emotional trauma that is just as hurtful and just as devastating. You know, there's not a 911, there's not medics that show up for emotional trauma like this, you know, and people don't know what to do with you. And they can feel empathetic, but I needed more than empathy. I needed help.

And so what I say is this book is like giving someone that initial emergency room visit. It's a short book. It's not intended to be the finish line. It's intended to be that urgent care so that you can start to get an emotional fortitude and biblical confidence and get some tools in your toolbox to be able to survive this. And not just survive it, but to get your bearings and heal from it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that because it's so practical. It's just triage. Because when your head is spinning and you're just a wreck, you can't read a long book. You don't need to deal with a lot of philosophy. You just need a friend who's been there to say, Here, let me walk you through it. Here's what we do. Here's the first steps. So that's so good, Lysa.

And your clarity too in writing, I know will be a gift for the woman or the man who's dealing with this.

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know that back in the '80s I got a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Palm Beach Atlantic University and I snagged a bachelor named Phil, who is no longer a bachelor because now he is my hubby. I got both from Palm Beach Atlantic University. Yeah, that's where I met my very own Dr. Phil in 1982. The degree I got, though, at PBA, it prepared me for the life and the calling that God had for me. And to be honest, the guy I met there, he also made my life better, oh, and my calling even more rich.

So PBA is a premier Christian University in West Palm Beach, Florida, that offers whole person education that prepares every student from around the globe to tackle the big problems of their day with Godly character, open arms, and a servant's heart. Oh, that's what it did for me, and I want that for you.

So if you have kids or grandkids who are wondering about their next step, well, step onto the campus of Palm Beach Atlantic University, and I bet you will find that you belong. You can check it out at 413podcast.com/pba. All right. Now let's get back to this amazing conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: And one of the things I love that you do is you always bring it back to the Word. Okay? So in your book you talk about how the Bible actually does protect women in the context of divorce. So give us some biblical history on this.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. So let's go all the way back to the ancient world where rabbis were very involved in people's relational dynamics. And so I think this is a really important thing to understand.

Women were in a patriarchal society then and they had very little rights. And if their husband abandoned them in any way, whether it was physical abandonment, whether it was emotional abandonment, you know, just tossing his wife aside and going out and doing whatever he pleased, or it was financial abandonment, you know, in all these different ways that a husband was abandoning the care that he should give to his wife, the rabbis would step in. And they would certainly try to see if this relationship could be saved, and they would encourage that.

But if the husband's heart was hardened -- and I think that's a real key here -- and that husband was unwilling or possibly even emotionally incapable of doing the right thing, then the rabbis would require that that man give the woman a certificate of divorce so that she could leave that marriage and not bring shame upon her family.

You know, if a woman left a marriage back then and they didn't have the certificate of divorce from the rabbis, not even their family would take them in usually because it would bring shame upon the family. So then she would be left destitute, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: And the other interesting thing that would happen is the man would be required to give the woman the dowry so that she would have financial provision to care for herself. And why that was important is because she could not survive in this patriarchal society without financial provision like what was provided for in the dowry. Otherwise she would have to turn to professions like prostitution and all of that and just create devastation upon devastation.

So, you know, the rabbis were very clear that a certificate of divorce had to be given, which then provided a way for the dowry money to be returned to the woman so that the husband's abandonment did not utterly destroy her.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that because it just shows the protective, sheltering nature of God. I mean, even remember -- it just reminds me somewhere in the Old Testament when God himself said, "I, the Creator, am your husband and your Maker," you know. And he really does treat us that way, takes care of us.

Which leads me -- so as I'm having this conversation with you, Lysa, I'm mindful that now here you are, you know, you're in just such a happy marriage. And I've met your hubby and I think he's a wonderful man. I'm so glad you have each other now. But, you know, this may be a little personal, but I'm curious if you ever feel the old feelings that were a part of this or the old triggers of divorce pop up and, if so, what does that mean? Does it mean anything to you, and what do you do about it?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. That's such an honest question. I'm glad you're asking it, Jennifer.

Yes, I am remarried now to a wonderful man who seeks my highest good, which is what love should be. Love should be two people coming together seeking each other's highest good. And I'm grateful. That doesn't mean that everything's going to be perfect, but it does mean that it's not a toxic, dysfunctional dance where one person's getting harmed over and over and over. And so I'm grateful, I'm so thankful for that.

It's interesting, I was just with my son a couple weeks ago and he asked me, you know, "Mom, do you ever miss Dad?" And, you know, I was very slow to answer because I wanted to handle it so delicately. And so here's how I answered him of that question. I said, I miss the man I thought your dad was, and maybe was at some point. I miss that man. That's the man that I fell in love with, that's the man that was an amazing father and leader and protector and provider of our family, you know, so I miss the man that I thought he was, or maybe he was at some point.

But I don't know -- I don't know him today. I don't know this version of him and so I don't miss this version of him. I pray for him, and, you know, I don't wish harm on him, but my feelings have shifted now into one of acceptance rather than of a pull that I wish I was back with him. I don't have that wish at all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I can understand that. Do you have the need, or has it been satisfied also or just surrendered, to explain what happened? To yourself. Like, do you still have the well, if only, or I wonder why, or has that been just buried in the grave with Jesus?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I wouldn't say that it was automatically buried. I would say, you know, I've come to the point of understanding that questions like that, you know, what if and how and when and what and, you know, all of that, the answers to those questions are not going to ease the ache of any kinds of sorrow that I've ever been through, nor will the answers to those questions provide a way for me to move forward into healing.

You know, I find it interesting in Mark 14, starting with verse 32, when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, the soldiers were about to come and arrest him and then the process of the Cross and his crucifixion would start. Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, prays and cries out loud, you know, two very, very crucial prayers.

One, Jesus says, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death." And then he goes on to say, "If possible" -- like, "God, everything is possible for you, so take this cup from me." You know, those two statements by Jesus, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," and, you know, "God, everything is possible for you, take this cup from me," I relate to those statements of Jesus probably more than just about any other statements that Jesus made.

And here's what's amazing about that. Jesus was fully man and fully God, which means that he felt the angst of humanity like we feel, and at the same time he was full divinity, so he had the answer to all questions. He knew everything. He knew the what-if and hows and whens and whats and -- you know, all of those questions, he knew the answers of everything, and those answers did not ease the ache of his sorrow. He still cried out, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death."

So having those answers, that's not what will ease the ache of our sorrow. I think the journey of easing the ache of that sorrow is going from the grief stage of denial, like, I can't believe this is happening, to getting into a place of accepting this happened, accepting I'm not going to get the answers to all those questions, accepting even if I got the answers to those questions, I probably wouldn't agree with them anyways, and accepting the fact that I have to make the decision at some point to detach my ability to heal from the other person ever owning what they did, saying they're sorry, and having that epic conversation where they, you know, beg for your forgiveness and acknowledge how much they've hurt you and say that they wish they would have never done that to you. You know, that epic conversation is one that may never, ever be possible.

So we have to detach our ability to heal from choices another person may never, ever make, and we have to put a stake in the ground and say, I deserve to stop suffering because of what another person did to me. So I'm not going to wait for that epic conversation. I'm not going to wait for them to own what they did or say they're sorry. I'm not going to wait to get the answers to all these painful realities of my life. Instead, I'm going to detach my ability to heal from them and attach my ability to heal to what God says to do. And God says he loves me, God says he will provide for me, God says that he will protect me, and that's where I have to park my mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: So glad I asked you that question. Thank you, Lysa. That was -- I think somebody really needed to hear that.

All right, girl, we're going to get to our last question. This is so life giving. We've got all sorts of people listening right now. Some love somebody who's in an unwanted divorce, somebody right now is in the middle of it, somebody's just been through it. Like, we're all in different places. But I want you to speak to that person who is in the middle of all this and she feels completely alone in this unwanted divorce. What is that last thing that you would say to her?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I would say don't go at this alone. Find somebody who understands the unique dynamics that you're in, whether that's a counselor or a wise friend who understands some of the harsh realities of whatever the dynamics are at play here causing the destruction in your marriage. And I would not go at it alone. I would tell that friend exactly what has been done to you, what that has been said to you, all the ways that you've been hurt.

And then my prayer is that friend would take a step back and say these two things. And if you don't have a friend saying it, I'll say it to you. I believe you. I believe you. What happened to you was wrong and it shouldn't have happened. And if no one else ever dares to bear witness to your pain and says that they are sorry for all that you've had to endure, I'll say it. Friend, I'm so sorry. I'm so, so sorry.

And now, just like I said before, you deserve to stop suffering because of what another person has done to you. So put a stake in the ground and say, My decision to heal will never be dependent on the choices of another person. My decision to heal is my declaration that I will forgive, that I will live, and that I will trust God in the process.

KC Wright: Don't go it alone. Tell a trusted friend what was done to you, what was said to you. Be honest about the ways you were hurt. Let someone bear witness to your pain, then put your stake in the ground. Your healing is not dependent on his apology or her repentance. You can declare, "I will heal."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. "I will heal."

And by the way, if you're the one who loves somebody who's going through this unwanted divorce, don't treat it as a spectator sport. I thought this was really good that Lysa pointed out, you know, where you're trying to figure out, ooh, which side of the story wins? Let's just be listeners. Let's just listen and love. Let's be present in their life. Don't try to be the fixer, the judge, or the therapist. They are professionals who can give legal and psychological counseling, who can do all those things. Okay? But no one can fill the friend role better than you, so be that friend that she or he needs.

KC Wright: And get her a book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right. right.

KC Wright: As Lysa said, it's a short one, so it's an easy resource to read. In fact, you can win one right now at 413podcast.com/386, or go to Jennifer's Instagram. Follow her for daily encouragement and behind-the-scenes goodness. But you can find her @jennrothschild right there on Instagram to win this book.

Plus, the Show Notes will link you to other Lysa books, and you can read a transcript of this conversation all right there for you. I think this one is going to be shared a lot. It needs to be shared.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it should be.

KC Wright: You know someone in your life with a broken heart from divorce, and this conversation can be a part of their healing, and all it takes is for you to do your part and share it.

All right. We know this was a tough one for some of us to listen to, but remember, you can not only survive an unwanted divorce, you can heal, you can thrive, you can walk in victory because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can, our friends. Yes, you can.