4:13 Podcast: Can I Determine if I’m Kinda Judgy? With Shannon Popkin

Shannon Popkin: When we kind of enjoy the fact that other people have fallen short, we're like -- we get these little judgy boosts of pride when we point out the ways that other people have fallen short, and we're like almost enjoying something that God grieves over, we're enjoying the fact that they have fallen short.

And so, you know, we need to hold fast to God's lines between right and wrong, but there's -- but we are wrongly judging when we enjoy the ways that other people have fallen short.

Jennifer Rothschild: Judgment is everywhere, including in the church. We Christians, we are both judged and judgmental sometimes. And the Bible shows us when it's right and when it's not. So on today's episode, author and Bible teacher and podcaster Shannon Popkin is going to help you discern well, melt judgy pride, and become more merciful. So let's trade condemnation for compassion and get started.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey friends. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. It's two friends, one topic, and zero stress here in the podcast closet (singing) under the stairs.

KC Wright: (Singing) Under the stairs.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's where we are coming to you. We're so glad you're here today. If you've been hanging out with us for a while, you know The 4:13 is all about practical encouragement and biblical wisdom.

That's why we're here, because we want you to know that through Christ you are capable of being and doing exactly what God has called you to do and being who he's called you to be.

So today we're talking about judgment and being judgmental, being kind of judgy.

KC Wright: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: And sadly, when I -- I asked KC before we started, "Boy, is this a topic for you," and he's like, "Oh, yeah. I got stuff."

KC Wright: Oh, yeah. I've got a childhood friend who recently popped into my church, and I overheard a conversation from some little -- can I say it? -- judgy butts. Can I say that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: I just did.

Jennifer Rothschild: You just did.

KC Wright: I just did.

Jennifer Rothschild: You did.

KC Wright: Anyway, my buddy, I have known him -- well, he's a childhood friend, right? But on one leg he's got -- entire tattooed, right? -- his whole left leg. And he has this 'stache like a pirate, this really wild 'stache -- right? -- this mustache. And then he wears -- he has a bun, a man bun.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. Right.

KC Wright: So he looks like a pirate. And he even has an octopus on his left leg, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Yes.

KC Wright: And so I overheard some ladies, some petrified saints -- the Bible says to be preserved until the coming of the Lord. They've been pickled. But anyway, they were like, "Well, would you look at that? Would you just look at that."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: And I tell you what, normally -- I'm gonna tell you -- I let things slide and I bite the inside of my mouth. But I just went up to both of them and I had a come-to-Jesus meeting. Because I wanted to brag on him because -- yeah, you may see this on the outside, but you know what? God looks at the heart.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: And this brother of mine got tired recently of seeing a homeless man in his little small town. And he has a rental home, and he's got, like, three homeless men living under this roof of his, right? I went on a missions trip a couple years ago. The first person in line to support my missions trip was my brother. He gave me 2K, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Wow.

KC Wright: He's a faithful tither. He will not miss -- oh, he is such a tither, but he will not miss a Sunday or a Wednesday service. Bottom line -- those are all works, right? But bottom line --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, they're fruit.

KC Wright: They're fruit, right? Bottom line, I don't know another person on the planet besides JR and maybe ten other people that are true -- I mean, real Jesus followers.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I know what you're saying.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And if you were judging, which is what was happening --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- from the exterior, you miss all that.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, what -- you know, isn't it -- that story of David when he was a shepherd boy where God was very clear to say, Hey, man looks at the outer appearance, but God looks at the heart. But, boy, do we get caught up in that.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Boy, do we -- well, I think that's one of the things Shannon deals with today, is how quick we are to judge. None of us like to feel judged, but sometimes we forget how that feels and we do it to others.

So this is honestly such a good conversation. Plus it's very delightful. You're gonna love it. So this is a new book we're gonna talk about that Shannon has done. And by the way, she's been on the podcast before, so we'll link to that also, to her past episode. But, KC, let's remind our friends who Shannon is.

KC Wright: Yeah. She's amazing. From the platform, page, and podcast mic, Shannon Popkin invites you and I to drink deeply of God's story and live like it's true. Her latest book is "Kinda Judgy: Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories of the Bible." Oh, I want to read this.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

KC Wright: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that great?

KC Wright: What a great title.

Shannon is also the author of "Control Girl," "Compassion Girl," and "Shaped by God's Promises." She hosts the Live Like It's True Bible Podcast and has been featured on Revive Our Hearts, Family Life Today, Risen Motherhood, and the Gospel Coalition, and The 4:13.

Jennifer Rothschild: 4:13.

KC Wright: Come on. So let's listen now to Jennifer and Shannon. This is going to be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Shannon, I love having you back. Our last conversation, which we will link to, of course, is the one we talked about control. It was so powerful. And listen, Shannon, I don't know if you know this, that stayed in my top ten for a long time --

Shannon Popkin: Oh, wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because it was so relevant, sister. And I'm afraid that this one is relevant too. I don't mean I'm afraid. I'm glad because you have a solution for a problem here. So your latest book is called "Kinda Judgy." Fabulous name. And it's "Finding Mercy for Myself and Others in Six Stories of the Bible.

Okay. So I think this is super relevant. And, like, I can even just give you a quick example. So a while back I posted that I got my first tattoo. I waited till I was 62 and I got my first --

Shannon Popkin: I love it. That's so great.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so when I posted it, I said to my team who helps with social media in my office, I said, "Okay, everyone be prepared. This might be a canceled by the judgy day." You just never know, right? Now, I will say, my dear friends were very kind. There were only a few that did not approve and let me know it and -- but that's okay. That's their prerogative. But you get it, right?

Shannon Popkin: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We all get it.

Shannon Popkin: Yes, it's so true.

Jennifer, I have to ask though, why the tattoo? I mean, like, your listeners know that you can't see the tattoo.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Right?

Shannon Popkin: So what does it say, or what is it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Which makes it even more fun. So I did it on my forearm --

Shannon Popkin: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and it says three words: "It Is Well."

Shannon Popkin: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And the T in the word "It" is a cross.

Shannon Popkin: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I did it because the first song I ever played when I lost my sight was It Is Well With My Soul. And that's just been a guiding principle for me that it really is well with my soul. And so the cool thing is, Shannon, even though I can't see it, like, when I lift my hands in worship, that phrase is right there in front of my face, right?

Shannon Popkin: That's so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: If I put my hand over my heart, that phrase is right there near my heart. And I've already been asked questions like, "What does that mean?" "Why do you have that?" Which is also why I did it, you know?

Shannon Popkin: That's so good. Yeah, it's so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: So anyway, I appreciate that you think it's wonderful.

Shannon Popkin: I do.

Jennifer Rothschild: There were some women who did not.

Shannon Popkin: I do, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And let's just be honest, sometimes we've felt judgment from others. Sometimes maybe we've been the ones who are judgmental toward others. So I want us to start first off, Shannon, what does it mean to be kind of judgy? And I'm curious what Christians' reputation is in this area.

Shannon Popkin: Yeah. Well, judgment is deciding right from wrong. Yes? And so a judge, if we go into a courtroom and there's a judge with a gavel, he is going to decide whether someone has done wrong or not.

And so when we talk about being kind of judgy, it's like we're that person who -- we just kind of enjoy the gavel in our hand. We enjoy the way that -- when we're pounding that gavel and pointing to all of the other people who are wrong, we're kind of like sliding into the judge's seat. Which I'm not saying let's get rid of all the judges or even all gavels. That's not what God is saying.

But we have an ultimate Judge who sits on the ultimate throne, and I think being kind of judgy is taking his place, especially when we're casting that final judgment on someone. It's like we're weighing up their worth and giving a final verdict and saying you're awful, you're bad, you know, you're wrong --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: -- versus, like, you are a person created in God's image. You deserve my respect, you deserve to be honored, and yet, like me, you have fallen into sin, and having compassion for that person. So that's sort of the -- what we want to adjust -- right? -- as Christians.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Okay. I love that, because what you just described, it's a matter of the heart. It really is. It's a matter of the heart that we put ourselves as that judge.

But as I hear you say that, it, of course, begs the question, so, like, how do you know the difference between being wrongfully judgy and having healthy discernment?

Shannon Popkin: Right. Well, the thing is we don't have good judgment. We have flawed judgment from the fall, from the time that Adam and Eve ate the fruit. The Bible talks about this as the point where we all went spiritually blind. And so we can't tell what is right and what is wrong, we need God. And so we need him to draw the lines between right and wrong.

And so we're not wrong to defer to God and his lines between right and wrong. That's good and right. He is a good God to give us -- like, when he gave the Ten Commandments, it was sort of like a marriage ceremony. He's committing his love to his people and he's saying, I want for you to flourish, and this is how our community is going to be different than the rest of the world. And so, you know, because we have flawed judgment, we need God to show us right from wrong.

But the problem is -- I say the pointed finger. Because the problem of the pointed finger is that it always points down from this elevated, you know, self-exalting position.

Jennifer, I shared the Gospel once with a group of children, and there was a girl who raised her hand and said she wanted to talk to me afterward, and I was so excited. And so I said to her, "Honey, is God convicting your heart of sin?" You know, because I always think if we're going to give someone the Good News, we have to start with the bad news.

And so I said, you know, "Are you being convicted?" And she said, "Oh, no. I don't sin." And I said -- I brought her to, you know, one of the lists of sins, one of those verses that lists a bunch out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: I said, "Have you ever heard any of these?" And she's like, "No, I've never." And then I brought her to the verse that says, "For all have sinned," and she said, "I think I'd like to go back to my class now."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shannon Popkin: And so I was like, "Okay." You know, she was just a little girl. And so I bring her back to her class, and her teacher was so excited. And she said, "Oh, you know, do you have something to share with the other girls?" And this little one, she said, "Yes, I do." And I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, what's she going to share? She takes her finger and sweeps it as she says, "All of you have sinned."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Shannon Popkin: Isn't that great? She did it twice. "All of you have sinned." She needed them to know this.

And so that's where we get it wrong, right? That's where -- when we kind of enjoy the fact that other people have fallen short, we're like -- we get these little judgy boosts of pride when we point out the ways that other people have fallen short, and we're, like, almost enjoying something that God grieves over. We're enjoying the fact that they have fallen short.

And so, you know, we need to hold fast to God's lines between right and wrong, but there's -- but we are wrongly judging when we enjoy the ways that other people have fallen short.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that's such a good point. I hear humility in that, humility that we're all part of the all.

Shannon Popkin: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so then if someone were listening and they're still trying to really get their head around this, what is discernment? Because that involves right and wrong also.

Shannon Popkin: Yeah, yeah. Well, in this book "Kinda Judgy," I kept bumping into that. Like, how do we -- you know, there are things that are very clear in Scripture, right from wrong, and then there are things where we do, we have to use discernment, we have to use good judgment. And so we're always going back to God for that, though. We're not going to ourselves into our little community of, like, what does the community decide?

And so in the back of the book I created these appendixes where -- I kind of separated it up, like, how do you know if you're wrongly judging someone's behavior or their beliefs? And so -- especially with the beliefs section, I created three different sections where we've got pillars that are -- like, the Bible is so clear on these things and, you know, we would be wrong to not correct someone if they're stepping over one of these lines or dismissing -- like, trying to get rid of one of these true things, like, for instance, that Jesus was God or something like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, sure.

Shannon Popkin: Like, these are the pillars. We need to hold fast to these true things.

But then there are these persuasions where people who read the Bible see it differently, you know. So this would be like baptism or gifts of the Spirit or end times, like, those sorts of things where it's not wrong to try to persuade one another.

But then we've got this list of personal convictions, and that's where I think you're getting at with using discernment. And so with the area of personal convictions, I mean, these are things like modesty or drinking or entertainment or things like that where we don't -- we can't turn to a chapter and verse and find our passage where it tells us, okay, thou shalt send thy children to public school or thou shalt homeschool. We don't have that.

And so we're using Scripture to apply, and we apply it in different ways. And so this is where we're told, you know, we're not to judge one another, and so this is a matter of personal convictions between us and the Lord. Romans 14 is really clear, there's, like, two groups of people in the same church who have completely different ideas on how they're to apply the truth, and they're told, like, this is a private matter between you and the Lord.

And so I think, like, we need to be careful when we're exercising discernment. That's a matter of private personal conviction, and we can't use that to judge other people.

I think that's where we get into trouble, where it's like we -- some of us are sort of like the Pharisees, where we look at the line between right and wrong, you know, that God has drawn and we're like, okay, I'm going to be so far back from that line. I'm going to draw a whole bunch of way, way back lines, and I'm never going to cross those, and I'm going to judge all the people who do. And so that's -- you know, that's where we get it wrong.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. That's really good, because -- and I think when you mentioned something even like alcohol, right, that becomes pharisaical when we become very judgmental just because we have a personal conviction. There are denominations that use alcohol as part of their celebrations, you know?

Shannon Popkin: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you're right, we need to have that -- like Jesus, be full of grace, be full of truth.

Okay. So speaking of Jesus -- oh, man. You'll probably remember better than me, Shannon. Maybe it's Matthew 7 when he says, "Judge not lest you be judged, for the same" -- whatever it says. Something like the same measure that you use, you will be -- it will be used on you. Okay. That was a big paraphrase.

Shannon Popkin: No, that's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. But what did Jesus mean by that, not to judge?

Shannon Popkin: Yes. And this is a verse that the world likes to quote. Do not judge. You know, aren't you supposed to be the ones who don't judge anyone?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Shannon Popkin: And what they're saying is, like, let's just go ahead and erase all the lines. And can we just get along already and stop judging one another and create this, like, judgment-free utopia -- right? -- where we can all just be happy and free.

That's what the world would suggest is the solution, and yet that isn't what God asks of his people. Like, he -- that doesn't make us happy, it doesn't set us free when we get rid of those lines. And so -- you know, what he isn't saying is that we should just erase all the lines, throw away all the gavels.

So, you know, what is he saying? Well, I think it's important to look at the context. Because like you said, he follows up by saying, "For you will be judged by the same standard with which you use to judge others." And so it's a command, but it's also like a warning. Don't judge because this is going to be happening to you.

And so, like, if you picture a scoop for judgment, you know, like you've got this big huge two-quart scoop -- right? -- versus a little tiny quarter teaspoon scoop of judgment, you get to pick what you're going to use, like, how you're gonna dish out judgment. But that's the same scoop God is going to use for you.

And there's this story where Jesus actually puts this into play. He's at a dinner party with Simon. And Simon is this Pharisee. And he's looking over at this woman who's crept in, and she's just weeping at Jesus' feet. Something is clearly happening in her heart. And Simon is looking on with this air of disgust, and he says, like, if this man -- if Jesus knew who this woman was and what sort of woman she was, he would not be letting her touch him.

And so, you see, he's saying she's that sort. He's implying she's a different sort than me. And so he's got all of this contempt and judgment. Like I said, the finger of judgment always points down, doesn't it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: And so Jesus then corrects Simon. He reads his mind. You know, Simon hasn't said these things out loud. And he says, Hey Simon, I've got a story for you.

And he tells him this story about two people who are in debt. And one -- you know, they're both, like, over -- underwater in debt. And one of them is maybe like -- if we were to say -- using that metaphor, like 50 feet underwater, and the other is, like, 500 feet underwater in debt. But they're both underwater in debt and they cannot pay.

And so you see what Jesus has done here. He's put a Pharisee -- and this was probably a prostitute. He's put them together in the same story and he's saying, Look, see the sameness between you. You think she's a different sort, but actually you're the same sort. And, yeah, he's not asking Simon to just disregard that this woman -- he's not asking him to say she's never sinned. No, that's not the -- that's not the point here.

But the point is, look, Simon, I am gonna judge you now with this harsh -- I'm gonna— this story is for you to contemplate your heart. And I've seen what you've done here, and I'm gonna call you out in front of everybody. And then Jesus ends up lifting up this woman and saying she's the good example here because she's come to Jesus with her sin.

And so it's this beautiful story of the way Jesus sees us, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: He sees all of our sin, and yet he -- he does see all of us --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Shannon Popkin: -- all of us. And we need to come to the Lord Jesus with that sin, and he invites us. And look how kind and compassionate he is toward her. He receives her kisses. He doesn't -- he doesn't say, Get away from me, like, the way that Simon wants him to. You know, Simon kind of would prefer a judgy Jesus, like, Get away. But Jesus receives sinners. So I think that's what Jesus means, like, don't judge as if you have not sinned. Like, put yourself in the same story with that other sinner and recognize you need mercy too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, Shannon. Okay, so much there, girl. Boy, even just that phrase of Simon wanted a judgy Jesus. I think -- I think sometimes I do too, you know? I think sometimes -- and it's when I am the most full of myself and my heart is hard and I haven't put myself at the foot of the Cross, which is perfectly level.

Shannon Popkin: Yes, it is. When I think -- you know, there's part of us that we're like, Just give me the list, Jesus, you know, just tell me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: Give me all the rules so I can check all the boxes, because I want to follow you, I want to be -- you know, Simon wanted to have the approval of God, but he just thought he could get it himself.

And I think there's something about that. We want to, you know, know all the rules. Give me all the lines so that I can get myself on the right side. But it's this pride driving that. And from the beginning, God never intended for us to have a list of rules. He always wanted us to be in relationship.

That's why he put this tree of knowledge of good and evil. That was off limits. Because he didn't want them to just have the tree, he wanted them to take walks with him in the garden and to learn good judgment from him from within relationship. And so Eve, though, was like, oh, I think I'm just going to shortcut those walks, I'm going to take this fruit and have the good judgment for myself, and that's where we get it all wrong.

And so I think sometimes we tether ourselves to our lists versus tethering ourselves to Jesus.

If I could just offer one more example. I heard about this -- I've got a bunch of young adults around me because my kids are all in their 20s. And so I was talking to a group of young adults, and these girls were telling me about this dating podcast, or some -- some woman -- I don't even know.

But she has this podcast and she gives advice to young women who are in that stage where they're dating. And so they were telling me some of the things. Like, she says, you know, never date a guy who doesn't -- who's not in the Bible seven days a week, or never date a guy who wants to kiss you before -- I don't know. You know, just different rules.

So this is where it's like in my mind, okay, we're backing way, way up and drawing these lines. Like, what if there's a guy who had this amazing story of transformation? He's been redeemed from a lost, sinful life, and yet he's only reading his Bible maybe one or two days a week. And so if you refuse to go out with him, like, what are you tethering yourself to?

Is it to your list or is it to walking with Jesus? I mean, we need to be walking with Jesus and find that discernment in him. That's what he's always wanted for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good, Shannon. It's a paradigm shift for a lot of us, and it happens because of the best intentions. Because we want to do the right thing.

Shannon Popkin: Yes, we do.

Jennifer Rothschild: We want to love the Lord by -- with obedience. But, yeah, that can become a substitute, a legalistic substitute.

Okay. This cannot happen outside relationship, and I think that right there --

Shannon Popkin: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- is something we need to just camp there for a second in our hearts and not let that leave us.

And as I'm thinking about this -- well, and you allude to it in the subtitle of your book. I think there is a correlation between being harsh toward ourselves and being harsh toward others, or being judgy toward ourselves and judgy toward others.

I have a person in my life who I have noticed that human is very hard on themselves. That person also is quick to be very hard on others. And I don't -- it took me years to figure it out. Talk to us about that. What is that phenomenon and why does that happen?

Shannon Popkin: Well, it makes sense -- right? -- because there's this correlation The reason that our finger is pointing down is because we lift ourselves up so high, right? It's pride. And pride has two faces. Pride has the face that says, "I'm better than you," and pride has the other face that says, "I am so ashamed because you are better than me," right?

And so in both of these ways, this condemnation that we feel, this isn't from Jesus, right?

Just think of that woman who was at Jesus' feet, who is coming with -- you know, she's like -- probably she's got this little flask of perfume, and most likely it was the trick of her trade, you know, it made things smell better. And so she's taking that thing and probably snapping the neck and pouring it out. So she is leaving behind this life of sin and she's finding her way to Jesus, and she is just filled with all of this love and acceptance from him.

I mean, she's probably already heard the message. That's why she's crying. And she just wanted to get to Jesus and express her love and her gratitude that she could be forgiven. She could be forgiven.

And that's all of us. All of us are welcomed to the feet of Jesus where he's the one. It's not because of our righteousness that we are accepted; it's because of what he has done on the Cross. I mean, the terms of this situation with Jesus dying on the Cross, the terms are absurdly in our favor. He is the one who takes all the sin on him, and he gives us all of his righteousness. It's remarkable, it's absurd, and yet it's absolutely true.

And so we should not be people who are walking around hanging our heads in shame. Because it's not based on our righteousness, it's based on his righteousness that we are forgiven and accepted.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's so good. And, Shannon, I'm processing a lot as you're explaining this, and so I need you to repeat for my sake -- and probably our friends do too -- what was it that you said at the very beginning of this answer about pride, seeing others and then seeing ourselves, the shame that we feel toward ourselves? Can you say that one more time and explain that one more time? I need that.

Shannon Popkin: Sure. Yeah. Well, pride is always about lifting ourselves up, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Shannon Popkin: It's like -- the face of pride is like, I'm better than you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, the face of pride is "I am better than you." Okay. All right.

Shannon Popkin: And then the face of shame is like, I don't like it that you're better than me. I should be better than -- you know, I should be the one who's doing it all right, and I hate it that I'm not.

And so we have, like, this contempt for other people. But we can have contempt for ourselves, especially when we fall back into habitual sin and we're just entrapped. And we always think -- Jennifer, I think this is so interesting. We always think that it's the sharp teeth of judgment that are going to change everyone. Right?

It's like, If they just knew. If they knew they were going to hell or that there's judgment coming, well, that would be the transformation. And yet that's just -- we're told in Scripture that it's God's mercy, that it's his kindness that leads us to repentance, right? And repentance is a gift that we receive from him.

And I just love the story too -- this book "Kinda Judgy," we're looking at six different stories of the Bible. And I think these stories, they just package up such good theology. And so one of my favorites is the story of the thief on the cross, where it starts out -- I mean, Jesus is so misjudged in this story.

Of all the people of the universe, there is only one who has been righteous in God's eyes, and that is Jesus, and he is there being harshly judged by a group of people who are flawed.

And the most scandalous thing is these two thieves on either side of him, they join in. And, you know, they're expressing this contempt. Who do you think you are, you know. You think -- you're saying you're the Messiah, you're the King. I mean, just picture their judgy fingers pointing from -- nailed to a cross. It's absolutely absurd.

And so how does Jesus respond? Because I think if there's ever a time when I think it's gonna be the sharp teeth of judgy words that should cut into a scene, it's this one. I mean, I want Jesus to say, You all are awful, you are all --

Jennifer Rothschild: I'll show you. Yeah.

Shannon Popkin: Right. But he doesn't. He does not. He just remains silent. He entrusts himself to the one who judges justly. But he doesn't correct them, but he does pray for them. And this is where he prays, like, "Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing." He prays that they might be forgiven. Now, not everyone in that scene who hears that prayer is likely forgiven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Shannon Popkin: But there is one, and it's that second thief. You know, he started out being one who was showing all this contempt. And then he, like, course corrects and he says -- he's saying to the other thief, like, What are you doing? We deserve this punishment. He has done nothing wrong. And so what made the change? And I think it's that mercy. It's that mercy that melts our heart, it melts our contempt.

It's like, You want me to have forgiveness? Right? And so that mercy, it's unexpected, it's astonishing, and it's transformative. And so I think what we need more than to wrap our heads around judgment, we need to know about the judgment. Jesus wants us to know that there is coming judgment. He came the first time as the merciful Savior, but he's coming again with his robe drenched in blood. He's coming as the judge, and he wants us to know that.

But the thing that the whole Bible is pointing to is this moment of Jesus' mercy. It wasn't -- you know, they were mocking him because they thought he was too weak to come down from that cross. Actually, he was too merciful. He knew that we needed someone to take our punishment and to set us free from our sin, and that's what he did.

Jennifer Rothschild: Shannon, those words are so anointed. Thank you. It's all about Jesus, looking to Jesus. Ooh.

All right. So you mentioned earlier in our conversation about the gavel. I love the courtroom idea. And you describe in your book "holding court in my head." So kind of give us a picture of what that is, because I want to know if we do the same thing. I have a feeling we do.

Shannon Popkin: Yeah. You know, I was kind of surprised when I started asking women, "Do you do this?" They're like, "Yeah, I do." I didn't know we all did it. I mean, maybe we don't all do it; but I know I do. It's this thing that I do when I'm so convinced that I'm right and I'm so convinced that they're wrong. Right? And I just walk around, like, pounding my gavel and holding court.

And there was this day that I was doing that. There was this woman who had kind of judged me. And I think this is the time when I'm most tempted to pick up my gavel, is when I feel judged by someone else. And so that's what -- she had judged me.

Our kids were in this youth program together, and we decided to pull our kids out. This was one of those things, like, under personal convictions, you know? And so we weren't trying to judge her by doing it differently. We fully respected and honored them as parents, but she felt judged by us pulling our kids out.

And so she said the most hurtful, harsh words to me, and then she just cut off contact. You know, she just kind of ghosted me for a while. And I was so angry and so frustrated by this, and so I just kept, like, several times a day -- maybe five or six times a day I would just hold court in my head. And it was like I was listing out all the ways that I was right, all the ways that she was wrong.

And this one moment, I remember I was washing my hands in the sink, holding court, and I looked up in the mirror -- and I had been rehearsing her harsh judgmental, condescending tone. I looked up in the mirror and I was like, oh, man. I look kind of harsh and condescending. Like, I had this awful look on my face. I was like, oh, wow. And I just kind of let that expression stay frozen on my face as I looked in the mirror, and I was like, ooh, I think maybe I'm the one who's wrong. The Lord used that to convict me.

And that's what God did in the story of Jonah. You know, he was so convinced that he was right and he was so convinced the Ninevites were wrong. And they were. They were awful people. They were horrible, harsh people. And so -- but look at God's question for Jonah. He says, "Are you right to be angry?" Like, yes, Jonah, yes, they are wrong. But are you right?

And so, you know, when we're holding court in our head and listing out all the ways that we're right and they're wrong, this is where God is inviting us to just hand back that gavel, you know.

And here's what softens our hearts. If you want to do this, like, if there's someone -- like, I'm talking to our listeners here. If there's somebody that you just are constantly holding court in your head, here's the response that God gave to Jonah. He invited him to have compassion. And this is what softens our hearts.

It's when we see all who have sinned and we see ourselves among them. That's what softens our hearts. Because at the end of the Book of Jonah, God uses this particular word when he says, "Should I not have compassion," and he says, "to all of the humans in Nineveh?" You know, he doesn't use the word -- the normal word you'd use, like, for people. He humanizes them. He's like, There is one human race, and the whole human race has fallen, and, Jonah, you are part of it.

And so he invites Jonah to see himself among the sinners and to -- and it just sort of, like, grows the compassion in our hearts.

And so let me just give a really practical way that the Lord used this in that situation with that woman, Liz.

So what I decided to do that moment that I looked up in that mirror and I saw that contempt on my face, I just decided -- it was Easter season. And so I decided to just hold myself accountable. You know, I was just drinking in the story of Jesus dying in my place, his streams of mercy flowing from Jesus. And I asked him, like, Give me this mercy for Liz, like, Give me -- give me this heart of compassion for her.

And so I started doing this practice where I would get on my knees and I would picture my friend Liz beside me, both of us, you know, like you just said, that the foot -- there's level ground at the foot of the Cross. And so I just pictured the two of us there beside each other and I started praying in plural.

I said, "Lord, forgive us for the ways that we're so harsh toward each other. Lord, forgive us." And I just grouped myself with her. And I was amazed at what God did. It was like this -- you know, Jesus raised from the dead to new life. And that's what he has in mind for us, that we would be risen to this new life in Christ and we would have this new compassion and this new mercy for other sinners just like us.

And that -- I just saw that happen. It was transformative. It was amazing. And that's really my hope for this book and this message.

I mean, if you're thinking right now, oh, what if Liz hears this? I have changed her name. I've changed details. I would never want, you know, a message where I'm saying we shouldn't call out people and be judgy.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then call out Liz.

Shannon Popkin: I wouldn't want to do that, right? Yes. So --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I figured. I appreciate -- I'm glad you shared that, because I'm sure we're wondering that.

Shannon Popkin: Yeah, yeah. And Liz and I have reconciled. God has been so good, so I'm so thankful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's beautiful.

Shannon, this conversation, I don't know that I felt like I needed to hear this as much as I needed to hear this. The more I hear, the more I realize, thank you, Lord, for this reminder of your mercy, and may I extend it to others.

One of the things -- and we're about to get to the last question, but I just got to tell you this too, Shannon. I'm resonating so much. There was a while back -- because you and I are both in public ministry, and so you probably get emails every now and then that you're like, what in the world? That is not nice, or that is wrong, or whatever.

Shannon Popkin: Do you know how much I'm giving here? Like, do you know that I am --

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's so rough when you get these, because it's so quick and easy for them to shoot an email that's not kind always. And so anyway.

I used to be tempted to set them straight. And sometimes I would write the email and then not send it. But, you know, the longer the Lord worked with me with mercy, the sooner I realized I just need to tell them, "Thank you for sharing. I could be wrong. God bless you."

And literally, when I assumed the posture -- unless it truly did not apply -- I could be wrong. Thank you for sharing your perspective. I'm always learning and growing.

When I adopted that posture, I was truly able to love them in the email, not just come off with some dutiful response to be nice or to be just, but just to show grace. Yeah, I could be wrong. I'm growing always, always growing.

Shannon Popkin: That's so good. That's our temptation, to rise up in righteous indignation, right? And that is just not God's way for us.

Like, think of Jesus on that Cross. He did not respond. And I think -- you know, what I see in that is he wasn't quick to rush to judgment. He was patient. And that's the story of the whole Bible, is the patience, the kindness.

You know, the way God first introduces himself is this -- he's like I -- the Lord, the Lord, I am kind, I'm compassionate, and I'm faithful to my people. He wants us to know that his heart is pent up not with judgment, but with mercy. He's waiting. The whole reason that Jesus hasn't returned yet is because he wants to pour out his mercy on us and give us an opportunity to respond.

That's the story of the whole Bible. That's why the story is thousands of years long. It's all because of God's great mercy. And so that's really what he wants us to respond to.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. And may we do that today in Jesus' name.

All right, we're going to get to our last question, Shannon. Just a little simple question here. How do we do it? Okay? Like, what is our first step if we're feeling the conviction of the Holy Spirit? Okay, maybe I have been judgmental, or maybe I don't respond well when I feel judged. Okay? What's our first step? How do we become these people who show less judgment and -- whether to ourselves or others, and who become more merciful?

Shannon Popkin: I think the number one thing that we need to do is to encounter the merciful judge. That's what we need. It's not -- I think what we're most drawn to is, like, give me that list. Give me that chart where, okay, in this situation I do this, in this situation I do that.

That was actually my first response to this whole topic of judge, don't judge.

About ten years ago I created this chart for my Bible study group. Like, okay, I studied all the passages in Scripture. But you know the result of that? It was sort of like I just became more judgmental because now I could judge others with precision of when they were doing it wrong, and I could feel good about myself that I was doing it all right.

I don't think it's as much about the right and wrong as it is about encountering Jesus. And so allowing him to be the one who draws the lines and encountering him as the one who holds that final gavel and recognizing just -- and that's why when I wrote this book, I wanted -- could have gone to a lot of the teaching passages from Paul and Jesus and others, but instead I went to stories, because stories draw us in and help us to feel things. They show us instead of just telling us things.

In these stories, in every single one of them, there's a person or group of people who are encountering this merciful judge and it has this amazing impact on our hearts. Because first of all we recognize that he is far more equipped than we are to judge. You know, he sees everything. His gaze penetrates to our hearts. He's able to weigh people and their motives, and so he's equipped to judge because he has perfect judgment.

But he's also more equipped to judge because his heart is brimming with mercy. What is pent up in his heart is not judgment, it's mercy. That's why he's so patient and he's so kind, and so it's encountering him that changes us.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, friends, you heard Shannon. First, encounter the merciful judge. Like, let's don't look for the list, let's just look to Jesus. Let Jesus draw the lines. Let's just -- you and me, let's just draw near to him and receive his grace, receive his truth.

KC Wright: Yeah. And he's better at judging than we are.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: He alone can. His heart is brimming with mercy.

We will have Shannon's book plus a full transcript of this incredible conversation at the Show Notes just for you right now at 413podcast.com/405. And we will also link you to a teaching podcast where Jennifer unpacks this topic as well, because we all need to learn and live this truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: A to the men.

KC Wright: All right. Until next week, you know the drill. You know what to do. You can drop the gavel and leave the judging to Jesus --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, we do need Christ's strength for this one sometimes.

KC Wright: We do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Humble, humble, humble, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Good stuff, KC.