4:13 Podcast: Can I Get Back Up When I Want To Give Up? With Shawn Johnson [Episode 379]

Shawn Johnson: He said, "I'm not saying it's not going to be hot, I'm not saying it's not going to burn, but we're not walking away from this." He said, "This is not going to steal your joy, it's not going to steal your calling, it's not going to steal who you are as a husband or a father." He said, "We're going to walk through this thing and we're going to come out stronger on the other side." And he said, "I'm going to be with you every single step of the way." And then he just said it again, "We're going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling."

Jennifer Rothschild: When life turns up the heat and you just really want to give up, will you face the flames? Will you keep the faith? Will you keep fighting until God does the miraculous? Well, Pastor Shawn Johnson found himself asking those very questions after he was diagnosed with a terrible, devastating brain disease that made him just want to give up on everything, including his faith and his future. But the turning point was a phone call from a friend who said to him that this situation was not going to steal his joy, take away his peace, or change his calling. His friend said this -- and you're going to love it -- "You are going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling."

Oh, my friends, this is one of the best conversations that you will ever hear. It's deep, it's funny, it's vulnerable, and it's wise and practical. And can I just suggest that you get some tissues, because both Shawn and I by the end were in tears. Good tears, happy tears. In fact, this was so deeply meaningful to me that KC and I, we're not even going to talk when we're done with this conversation. No. Instead, I'm going to sing over you my song "Take Me to the Cross," because seriously, that's the one place we all need most.

All right. Ready, set, buckle up. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. Listen, this is going to be a great episode. So if you're new to us, may I please introduce myself. I'm Jennifer. And that was my Seeing Eye Guy, KC. And we have one goal, and it's to help you be and do more than you feel capable as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. Aren't you thankful for the truth?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We can do it through Christ, only through Christ. You're going to hear that as Shawn shares some of his story and some of the practical encouragement he gleaned from it and can give to you. And I'm just saying, it was so good and I just so want to make sure that you experience the ministry of this conversation, that unlike typically where KC and I talk at the end, we're not going to do that. We're going to make sure you know all you need to know right here. Okay?

So, KC, that means the Show Notes, all the things, tell them where they need to go, because they're going to want to read this transcript.

KC Wright: Yes. Show Notes are simply at 413podcast.com/379. 413podcast.com/379. And that'll get you to not only the transcript, my friend, but we will link you to his book and Jennifer's song that you will hear at the end. Okay? And we are truly giving one of Shawn's books away --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we are.

KC Wright: -- this very day. So you know the drill by now. All you have to do, go to Instagram @jennrothschild to enter to win. Someone's going to win. Might as well be you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Might as well be you.

KC Wright: And I hope you do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Also, you are going to hear in this conversation in just a sec that I mention a friend of mine -- we've known him for years -- Coach Mark Richt.

He used to be the head coach of the Georgia Bulldogs, among others, and he struggled with a brain disease. In fact, he's in the middle of it, Parkinson's. And so I'll have a link to his book and to (fumbling her words) -- that was funny, KC. Go ahead and laugh. I'm not editing. Thank you. Okay. And to the two podcasts that Mark was on with us.

Okay. So now you know all that you need to know, so, KC, let's get this blessing going. Introduce Shawn Johnson.

KC Wright: Shawn Johnson, he serves as lead pastor of Red Rocks Church, a community he and a small group started in 2005 in Denver, Colorado. Red Rocks Church is a single church with multiple locations. He is the author of "Kiss the Fire" and "Attacking Anxiety." He and his wife, Jill, have three active sons: Ethan. Austin, and Ashton. So when they're not at church, they're usually watching or playing sports.

Jennifer Rothschild: I bet they are.

KC Wright: All right. This is going to be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

KC Wright: I'm so excited for you to receive right now. Pull up a chair. There's room at the table for you. Here are Shawn and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Shawn, I'm super glad you are with me. And we were just talking before we got on mic, so I'll let everybody know it's allergy season. And so if you hear a little bit of hoarseness, you'll know why.

But we're going to start with something, Shawn, that you deal with in your book. And to me it's the hardest part of your story. You were diagnosed with an incurable degenerative brain disease. And, like, I cannot -- I can't imagine that, the fear, the devastation. And so, you know, I know it's a hard place to start, but let's start with the hard because there's a lot of hope there. Tell us this part of your story.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. So I had torn my bicep wake surfing with a group of guys that I'm in a small group with. I was doing rehab, and the -- my arm had been in a brace for, like, six weeks after the surgery. And as we were doing rehab, my left arm and hand was trembling a little bit. And the physical therapist thought no big deal, it's atrophy from the surgery.

Well, that continued into the rehab process, and one day she said, you know, "You might want to see a neurologist." And I thought, well, that sounds weird. You know, I hurt my arm. Why would I want to see a neurologist? And I thought -- I have had a few times in the past where I've gotten, like, some injections in the back of my neck because I was getting a pinched nerve that was kind of affecting my left arm from time to time, and so I thought, well, maybe that has something to do with the neck and the brain, you know, whatever, so, yeah, I'll go see the neurologist. And they're like, "Yeah, we want to run some scans," and said, "Okay, great."

Well, my wife happened to be with me. And we went back to this doctor's office, and literally sitting there with my wife expecting this doctor to tell me, you know, "You have a pinched nerve." And he said, "I have bad news. You have an incurable brain disease." And what he thought it was at the time -- which they don't think it is now, but they don't know for sure -- the average lifespan is seven years after that diagnosis. And, you know, it really was one of those moments. You know, you hear people's stories of, like, my life changed in a doctor's appointment, and you just -- I never thought it would be my story.

And me and my wife just went and sat in the parking lot -- in fact -- I'll tell you this. I said to the doctor -- you know, I was so shocked, I said, "I don't understand." I said, you know, "I thought I had a pinched nerve." I said, "What's best case scenario?" And he said, "That we find lung cancer."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Shawn Johnson: And I said, "Wait, wait. What?" And he said, "Well, at least if we could find some large cancerous tumor, that could be responsible for some of the symptoms and at least then we could fight it." He said, "What I believe you have, there's nothing you can do about it, and you can't fight it." And I said, "Okay. Well, what's worst case scenario, then?" And he said, "That your wife will change and feed you at some point for the rest of your life."

And so it was just the craziest thing. I don't even know how to put it into words other than shock, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Shawn Johnson: We went out in the parking lot of this hospital and I just wept. Sorry. I didn't think I'd get emotional talking about it. I said to my wife, I said, you know, "I'm so sorry because I don't know what this will mean for you." And my wife is so much better than me at pretty much everything in life. She literally reaches in her back seat, grabs her Bible, and starts reading a verse. And I said, "What are you doing?" And she said, "Well," she said, "I'm not scared, I'm not going anywhere, and it looks like we need a miracle, so let's start praying for that."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shawn Johnson: Sorry. I didn't think I'd get this emotional.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's worthy of emotion, Shawn. I mean, it's big --

Shawn Johnson: Yeah, so that was a crazy day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Okay. You've lived many days since this.

Shawn Johnson: Yes, ma'am.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm going to ask you in a minute about a conversation you had with a friend and what this friend said. But I know our listeners are wondering, as I am, how are you now? What's your situation now?

Shawn Johnson: Thank you for asking. So I am -- the diagnosis is somewhere in the Parkinson's family. And so I go to Mayo Clinic two to three times a year right now. I take medicine five times a day. And I'm working out like crazy and -- I'm actually doing a lot of boxing. For some reason, you know, they can't -- they don't know where this comes from. They couldn't even tell me if it's, like, passed on from generation to generation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, like a recessive thing. Yeah.

Shawn Johnson: But they do believe that physical exercise to the point of exhaustion, that simultaneously makes your mind work really hard, is the only thing they can guess would slow down the degeneration. It sort of tells your brain you're working too hard today, you don't get to degenerate today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting.

Shawn Johnson: And so they really think boxing is a good workout. In fact, around the country -- I didn't know this -- they actually have -- certain cities around the country have a thing called Boxing for PD, which is for Parkinson's disease.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Shawn Johnson: So I'm doing a lot of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Wow.

Shawn Johnson: And, yeah, the medicine for the most part masks most of the symptoms at this point. I can feel it, but you'd have to kind of be trying to look for it to see it. Like, my wife and family can see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Shawn Johnson: And then, you know, I think one of the harder things is is the unknown, because they're like, well, it will turn much worse, and we couldn't tell you what day that will happen. And so that's, you know, one of the harder parts of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh, yeah. It's just -- you were dealt a fatal blow, but a slow burn, and that's just so hard. I mean, I'm processing this on so many levels. I have a dear friend, who's a former coach, who has Parkinson's, and I've seen how he struggles. It's interesting, Shawn, he said one of the only things that helps him is the extreme physical exercise.

Shawn Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's very interesting. And you're not an older man either. Sometimes we think things like this only happen to people in their 70s and 80s. And you're also a pastor, is that correct?

Shawn Johnson: That's right. Yeah. In fact, my grandfather, my mom's dad -- I never met my real dad. But my mom's dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's, but he was in his late '70s.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Gosh. Well, this is why outside of the sovereignty of God we would have no hope. I mean, I'm just thankful for God's sovereignty.

Shawn Johnson: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: And for the body of Christ. Because you had a conversation with a friend who said something to you that inspired this book that we're talking about, "Kiss the Fire." And so I'd like you to tell us about him and why you use this phrase as the title of your book.

Shawn Johnson: Yes. So I went into -- you know, maybe as you would imagine -- a bit of a tailspin after that day. And, you know, I'd like to say it didn't rattle my faith, I'm just too good of a Christian for something like that; but it did. And I went home -- in fact, our church was in the middle of a fast, and I stopped at a gas station and got a box of Krispy Kreme donuts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sorry, but that's awesome.

Shawn Johnson: No lie. And I was like, yeah, this fast is over.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, we can relate. That's good.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. And I went and sat on my back porch and I just went into this like -- what felt emotionally like just a dark pit. I was mad at God, sad, scared. And, you know, you have those feelings of, like, "Why me?" and, "It's not fair." And I sent two text messages, one to one of the guys I work with on our executive team here at the church and just said, "Hey, I'm going to take the rest of this week off," and then one to a guy in my small group -- I'm in a small group with seven other guys -- and I just said, "Hey, I won't be there tonight."

Well, apparently my wife had sent out a couple texts to some friends saying, you know, "Will you pray?" And I had literally in a day went to this spot of I want nothing to do with God. I don't even want to work at a church. I don't want to talk to anybody, I don't want anyone to call me and telling me they're praying for me and God's got it. Like, I don't want to hear any of it. I'm angry and hurt and sad and just kind of devastated.

And one of the guys in my small group called, and he is a UFC, a mixed martial arts coach. In fact, he was voted one of the 20 greatest UFC coaches of all time, and one of the few people in the world that I'm literally afraid of. And so I was like, yeah, I'm going to have to take his call. And I told him what had happened. And he was listening, and he goes, "Yeah," he goes, "Well, I'll tell you what, Shawn." He said, "We're going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling." And I said, "Coach" -- I call him "Coach." He's actually who I box with. And he lets me box in an octagon, so I pretend I'm a UFC fighter when I do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good for you.

Shawn Johnson: He -- I said, "Coach, that sounds great, but I don't know what that means." And he said, "I'm not saying it's not going to be hot, I'm not saying it's not going to burn, but we're not walking away from this." He said, "This is not going to steal your joy, it's not going to steal your calling, it's not going to steal who you are as a husband or a father." He said, "We're going to walk through this thing and we're going to come out stronger on the other side." And he said, "I'll be with you every single step of the way." And then he just said it again, "We're going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, thank you, Lord, for the family of God. When you don't have the strength or the interest he stepped in, he stepped in for you.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. And that was just it. It was like I didn't have the strength, but people like that, that will push you closer to God when you can't get there on your own, are so vital.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they are.

Shawn Johnson: And so then my whole small group came over and -- it is really funny because I kind of do life with two groups of guys. One of the groups of guys is the guys I run this church with, and then one of the groups of guys is my small group.

So the executive team from the church came over. And it would be -- if you're a church person, it would be the sort of prayer you would expect. They came over with anointing oil and, you know, they're laying hands on my shoulders and praying verses and all that stuff. And then they left and then my small group came over. And none of them work at a church. And their prayers were a lot different. There's no anointing oil and, honestly, a few cuss words in their prayers. And no less authentic, no less --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Aw.

Shawn Johnson: And we just sat there, gosh, for what felt like hours. And, you know, we talked and cried together, but what was awesome is we also laughed together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Johnson: And -- yeah, so that's where the title comes from --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's brilliant.

Shawn Johnson: -- is from that conversation. And that phrase has become kind of just a mantra for me of, like -- one thing that used to always confuse me is, you know, Jesus said, "In this world, you'll have troubles." And then he also said, "I came to give you life to the fullest."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Johnson: And I almost at times was like, well, which one is it, Jesus? And I used to think it was like a mountain range or like a roller coaster, it was like this season is life to the fullest and then, you know, this week is a lot of trouble. And then this month is life to the fullest and then this two months is -- and now I see it more like train tracks. I picture, like, if I could ask Jesus and I go, "Hey, which one is it? Is it life to the fullest or is it we'll have troubles?" I think his answer would be, "Yes."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn Johnson: And I think the idea is is we live a life that almost always is throwing us something to worry about and we can live life to the fullest at the same time. And so for me, I remind myself daily, yeah, this isn't what I want. But because of the Holy Spirit that's inside of me, because of the God-fearing community around me, I will kiss this fire. And I can still have joy today even though there's things in my life that I don't love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. You'll come out whistling.

Shawn Johnson: That's it.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, you know, when you think of kissing the fire, you think of your lips getting burned and charred, and it takes a little more effort to whistle when you're in that much pain.

Shawn Johnson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, you know, you really -- I mean, I'm just listening and feeling very honored that I'm getting to hear a work of God in progress right now in you. And I can recognize the deep abiding faith and humility it takes for you to be part of this process for his glory, and I thank you -- as your sister in Christ, I thank you.

Shawn Johnson: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's really hard and meaningful, Shawn, and you clearly haven't quit. And in your book you talk about not quitting. In fact, I think you give us three reasons that we should keep fighting and that we should refuse to give up. Can you give us a couple of those reasons.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. In fact, I'll give you all three real quick. The first one is -- and they're kind of long, and I -- you know, I felt like in writing this -- I've never done anything quite like this because this book isn't a I went through some stuff and now let me tell you how I am on the other side. This one is a I'm in the middle of it, and probably so is everybody who will listen or read it. And so there's more purpose in the pain than you could ever imagine. You're going to be so glad you didn't give up. And that third one is God only uses broken people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I want to unpack some of those. Let's just start with the broken people. Okay?

Shawn Johnson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So unpack that for us. And I'm curious even just for you personally as a pastor and a struggler, how has that shaped you?

Shawn Johnson: It's interesting. So I wrote a book a few years ago -- I never intended to ever write a book. I don't even enjoy the process and I'm not very good at the process.

About six years ago I started having panic attacks really bad as a pastor. And great wife, great kids, great church. On paper had this perfect life, and I couldn't control panic attacks. And they got so bad that I was having them multiple times a day. I couldn't function, I couldn't go to work some days, I couldn't ride in a car some days. I would leave restaurants. And I ended up checking myself into a seven-week anti-anxiety treatment center, it had gotten that bad. And I had even started to have suicidal intentions. And, you know, as a pastor it's like, well, I can't admit how screwed up I am. Or at least that's what I thought.

So anyways, I took about five months off work all total. And I was finally getting ready to come back to church and, you know, I wasn't perfect by any means, but I was better and healthier and stronger than I ever thought I would be. And I was talking to some pastors about, like, man, I'm going to go back to the church and, like, I want to tell them everything that happened. And there was a bunch of pastors -- not a bunch. There's a few pastors that said, "Hey, man, be careful how much you share, because you don't want them to lose faith in you." And that was really hard for me to process, because I'm like, I've been hiding this for too long already, I don't want to hide it anymore.

And then I talked to one pastor, and it was so freeing, he goes, "You know what?" He said, "You know what your church wants to hear? They want to hear that your house sucks too sometimes." That's what he said. And I thought, that's brilliant.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is brilliant.

Shawn Johnson: So anyways, I was getting ready to go tell the church. And what I felt like God had told me was, hey, I never asked you to get these people to have faith in you. I just told you to ask them to have faith in me.

And so I'm talking to my counselor, I go, "Okay, I got to go back to the church." And I said something in this last counseling session, I said, "Man, I don't know if I can." I said, "I'm not fixed yet." And he goes, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I'm better, but I still have a little anxiety now and then, I still feel a little depressed now and then, I still feel kind of just broken, you know."

And he goes, "Let me ask you a question." He goes, "If you were God and you were picking the person to run Red Rocks Church" -- that's the name of our church -- he said, "Would you want" -- he said, "Say you had two candidates. And one of them, he's so put together. Like, he's so close to perfect that he doesn't even really need to ever even check in with you because he's just really, really great at everything and pretty close to perfect." He goes, "Or you got a guy that's so broken that he knows the only way he can do this is if he checks in with you every day and relies fully on you."

And I go, "Well" -- you know, I got his point, obviously, and I said, "I think I'd probably want the broken guy." And he said this so deep statement to me. He goes, "Yeah." He goes, "Shawn, God only uses broken people, because what other kinds are there?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Isn't that the truth.

Shawn Johnson: And it was so freeing for me, because in my mind, if I'm a pastor, I just got to kind of pretend to have certain things under control and I can't really be real about my struggles. And I was able to come back to our church and I was just super honest with them. I told them about the anxiety, the panic. I told them about the times when I thought about taking my own life. I told them everything. And I thought the church might just crumble, you know. I think it doubled. It was so crazy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Wow. That's really such a picture, Shawn, of - you know where in 2 Corinthians 12, the Lord says to Paul that his strength is made perfect in our weakness. And I don't think sometimes we get it. But that's it. Otherwise people would see your strength. But they're seeing God's strength.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what? I cannot help but remember -- this is so many years ago. I'm in ministry. And I remember -- it was our small group, and I remember our small group leader got up and he started reading the story of the Good Samaritan. And literally I tuned out because I'm like, been there, done that.

And as he's reading it, I thought -- I caught myself. And I'm like, oh, sorry, Lord. Okay, it's Your Word, it's living, I want to be a part of it. So I start asking myself questions as he's reading. Okay. Like, am I the Levite? Am I the priest? Am I the one who walked away? Am I the religious one who's too busy? You know, thinking in the story, who am I? And I could not find myself in the story. I mean, I wasn't full of spiritual pride, but I was like, well, no. I mean, I know that's not my deal right now, I'm not acting -- anyway.

And it was like the Lord said to me, there is a fourth person in this story, and it's the broken one on the side of the road. And it was like I was alone in that room with the Lord, and I was like -- I've never wanted to say or admit or identify that, oh, yeah, I might be the broken one who needs help. But I'm always trying to be the priest who fixes things or the Levite who follows the rules or whatever. Wow.

Because none of us want to be the broken one. But it's the broken one that Jesus uses. Oh, wow. Thank you. I can see why the Lord is working in your midst, because he's working in you.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So let's get real practical here. I mean, you've already been very practical. Let's keep it up. Okay. Because in your book you give us seven strategies for kissing the fire -- I love that -- and walking away whistling. Okay. So there's strategies for resilience. So I don't know if you can list them or if you just want to give us a couple of your favorites.

Shawn Johnson: I can. And not because I have that great of a memory, but because I have it sitting in front of me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good. You're smart. We don't need a good memory if we've got notes.

Shawn Johnson: That's right. So the seven ways in the book, the titles are this: Kill the Lies, Run to God, Choose Who's In Your Corner, Get In The People Business, Decide To Live Today, Dream Again, and Remember Past Fires.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Can I ask you about one of them?

Shawn Johnson: Any of them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Get in the people business. What does that mean to you, get in the people business?

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. So this was super encouraging to me. I've always really been drawn to the Apostle Paul, especially when he was writing letters in prison. Because I grew up in a family that we were professional pity party throwers. Like, you know, if you were to go to one of my family dinners, you would see more dysfunction than you could imagine. But you would also -- every story was a hardship story, but it was never our fault.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry I'm laughing. I know these people. Okay, I'm with you. Got you.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah, yeah. So that just rubbed off on me. And so I've always had a real good ability to sort of play the "poor me" card.

So I've always been drawn to Paul. Because the Book of Philippians, for instance, has four chapters, and he's chained to a Roman guard, a million miles from his dreams, realizing he's probably going to be executed for just trying to help people find Jesus. And he writes this letter -- and, you know, theologians today will say there's one word that describes Philippians, and it's "joy."

And that has always baffled me, because I'm like, nothing in this dude's life has went right. Like, you go down his resume and, you know, it's whippings and beatings and being stoned and shipwrecked and snake-bitten and wrongfully imprisoned and just -- like, nothing has went right. And he writes a letter while chained to a -- probably chained to a Roman guard in prison, and his book is about joy.

And I've always struggled to have joy. And again, I think it's partly because I'm good at feeling sorry for myself. And so one of the things I noticed was, like, everything about these letters he writes from prison, it's always, "I'm praying for you with joy," "I'm writing to you with joy," "I'm encouraging you in this way," "I'm trying to help you through this problem that I know you're dealing with." And it just sort of occurred to me, it's the purpose that he decided to continue to live with in a really bad situation that is bringing him supernatural joy.

So I found myself one day having a real bad morning. And the details aren't important, but it was, you know, feeling sorry for myself. Well, I ended up that day talking with two different people who were just anxious and suicidal and really struggling, and then another student who's having some issues. And I found myself pulling into my driveway on the way home going, why do I feel so good? My day started off really bad. I start off every day with a dopamine deficit because I haven't taken my medicine all night. And so the doctors are like, "You should expect to wake up feeling really depressed and lethargic." I'm like, "Oh, awesome." I'm not a morning person anyway.

But it hit me like -- because I stopped thinking about how bad I have it and I started helping some other people with their problems, and that was all I did that day, and I found myself pulling into my driveway going, why do I have this joy? I'm supposed to be feeling sorry for myself today. And I have found that whenever I will turn around and just focus on helping somebody else with their problems, one of the by-products of that in my life is joy.

And I was meeting with a girl in my office -- and I always ask God, like, "God, speak to me. I don't know what to say." And this girl is just so awesome. Young 20s. She has a brain issue way worse than mine and she's having seizures. And she had all these dreams of going to nursing school, she was in nursing school. Now because of her seizures, she can't drive, she can't leave her mom's house on her own, she can't go to school. Like, she's just paralyzed with fear and with the inability to do the things she wants.

And I found myself in the middle of this talk just out of the blue, and I said to her, I said, "Do you know what you need? You need some purpose in your life." And she's like, "What are you talking about? I can't do anything." I'm like, "Well, that's not true. You have a really bad situation that you're facing, but I bet you if you tried, you'd find that there's some other people that are facing really bad situations too. And you could text them, you could call them, you could write them. You could call somebody and ask them to pray for" -- I was like, "I can't tell you what it is, I'm not God." I said, "But I bet if you ask God how to take your pain and help somebody else with it, I bet he would."

So for me, that's how I think about it. I'm like, I can either feel sorry for myself all day and focus on me and my problems, or I can on purpose get in the people business where I'm going to go help somebody, serve somebody, love somebody in the name of Jesus, and supernatural joy always seems to be the by-product.

Jennifer Rothschild: What a beautiful picture too, Shawn, of just how God redeems everything. Your pain flows into a purpose of helping someone else with their pain, which brings you joy. I mean, it's this virtuous cycle of God being our redeemer. That's just beautiful.

One thing I'm struck with, though, as I listen to you -- so I imagine you -- I know you're probably a pretty athletic guy. I think you have sons and sports is your thing. I can just see you in there with your boxing gloves, you know, tearing up. Okay. But I'm also listening to this man who is willingly being very vulnerable. So my question to you -- I want to ask you a couple questions just about balance. So the first question is this: How do you balance this vulnerability and strength when you're sharing your story? Like, is that hard? How do you do that?

Shawn Johnson: Yeah, it is. And it's a learning process for me because I didn't grow up in church, I didn't grow up as a Christian. I was a cocaine addict who got invited to a church at age 24 and literally gave my life to God with drugs in my pocket. So I didn't have this history of church. I have a history of pretend you're tougher than you are and fight anyone who says differently. And so, you know, pride was just a big thing, and so vulnerability obviously is hard when that's your natural bent.

But then also, because I'm new to this, what I've learned is is I do need to balance it, like what you just said, because if I'm not careful, I'll just share with people a bunch of open wounds, and I think I can do better than that. I can share with people really hard things, but also balance it with, look at the goodness of God and what he's brought me through. Because if all you do is talk about how you're hurting, it kind of just turns into we all have a pity party together.

And so for me it's -- yeah, hurts are a real part of life, but so is God's goodness, and so is his -- you know, that Ephesians 3:20 thing. I'll do more than you could ever ask, think or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us. And so my goal is I'll try to be vulnerable with the hurts, but I'll also bore you to death with the stories of God's goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. As if we could ever get bored. You know, I sense that, and I have heard that, and I appreciate you clarifying it, because I think it's a good word for all of us. So, yeah, thank you for that.

Well, okay, now here's another one I've been thinking of too --

Shawn Johnson: Hit me.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- as far as balance goes. Okay. Self-reliance with humility to ask for help, because I would think that's also -- I mean, that's hard for me. I would think that's hard for somebody like you.

Shawn Johnson: It is. It is. I was in the gym one day and -- God speaks to me in the weirdest ways. And I was in the gym, and a buddy of mine who actually helped start Red Rocks Church was also in the gym. And I had more weight on this bench than I should have had, but I was -- I knew my buddy would glance over every now and then and I wanted him to think I was just stronger. And I didn't ask for a spot because I wanted to look tough.

And the end of the story is is I almost choked myself as I couldn't lift the weight up. Some random 20-year-old had to come over and pull the bar off my neck almost. And God dropped this thought in my head. He goes, you were ten feet away from a man of God who would have gladly helped you. He didn't help you because he didn't know you were struggling.

And I feel like that's how we live our lives sometimes. Even people who go to church often. We can be surrounded by men and women of God who would love to help us, and they don't help us because they don't know we're struggling. And we become kind of the poster child of that Ecclesiastes verse that says, "Pity the one who falls and has no one to help him up." And I was that guy.

When I was six years ago going through panic attacks, nobody in my life knew the last 10%. I was afraid. I was afraid that I wouldn't be respected as a person, as a man, as a pastor. What if people want to leave me? What if people don't love me anymore or wouldn't love me? So, like, my wife even knew I have anxiety, I have depression. Nobody knew. I sat up sometimes after the whole family went to sleep and thought about ways of taking my life. And nobody knew how bad it was, and so no one could really help me.

And so that journey was a really good lesson for me in the importance of letting some people really know you, as scary as that is. And you know what, though? The payoff is so awesome, because not only do you have the stories like my friend calling me saying, "Kiss the fire," but I had this moment with my wife -- I was in that counseling facility about four or five weeks in, and she said, "I can't wait until you come home healthy." And she was just trying to be encouraging. And I was nervous that I wasn't going to ever be fixed, you know.

And so I said to her, I said, "Babe, what if I don't? What if I don't ever get better?" And now that she knows everything, she looked at me and said, "I'm not going anywhere and I love you." And she said "I love you" -- we've been married 26 years. She's said "I love you" a billion times. That one was the most meaningful because it was the first time I felt like she actually knows how jacked up I really am and still says she loves me and she's not going anywhere.

And so there's this amazing relationship, like almost invisible wall that comes down between people when you actually allow someone to really know you, and then they get to choose to still be with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And, I mean, what an esteem it grants to the person with whom you're being honest or the person to whom you're asking for help, right? It esteems them. It's saying you're worthy of my trust, you know. My relationship with you is more important than my pride or whatever.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah, for sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's a million ways we could complete that sentence for ourselves.

I'm so thankful for what God is doing in you, Shawn. My 4:13ers, I cannot recommend this book more highly. You need it. You know somebody who needs it. I just -- we're going to talk about, when Shawn and I are done here, how you can get the book, because you need the book. So, like, don't even -- don't even think of getting done with this podcast until you've gone to the Show Notes and gotten the book.

Okay. But, Shawn, you and me, we are going to hit our last question. Okay? And I really hate to -- I'm so glad you've written the book, because I don't even want to come to the last question. There's so much here that I could continue to ask. But here it is, last question.

Shawn Johnson: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. I just want you to make it super simple for the listeners who are feeling like I am, inspired in all of what God is doing. So many things we're processing. But we need one thing. We just need one thing to take away. Okay? What is a process or a next step that we can do to turn this pain that we might be in into purpose?

Shawn Johnson: It does depend where you're at in that journey, right? And so let's just say that you're in the -- just despair and don't know what to do. I would say -- I do two things now. Literally it's a reflex.

I immediately tell somebody and I get into God's presence. I immediately call my wife, text my small group, "Hey, I think I'm having a panic attack today," and then I -- no matter where I'm at, I go sit in my car, I go lay on a floor, I go somewhere and put on a worship song and I just get in God's presence. Because we are promised there's fullness of joy in his presence, and there is peace in his presence, and there is confidence and joy in his presence.

And so for me, the first two decisions I make is -- because on autopilot, I just go inside and I isolate. I want to evaporate. I don't want anyone to see me hurting and I want to be quiet about it and I want to hide from the world, and that's when it just tailspins and gets worse.

So the first two things is so important, is choose who's in your corner and let them know when you're hurting -- and again, I talk about that in the book -- and then run to God. And for me, the very first step is worship. And it's hard because, you know, when I got this diagnosis, the last thing in the world I wanted to do was to worship, because you find yourself thinking, what do I have to be grateful for?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. What in the world?

Shawn Johnson: Look at what I'm going through, look at how bad I'm hurting right now. And the truth is is we have so much to be grateful for. And I force myself to make lists. And I read them out loud in the morning, and I'll read them at night. And they're just lists of things I have to be thankful for, because sometimes I need to remind myself. Sometimes I need to remind Satan, I got a lot to be thankful for.

And I do this thing -- and then I'll shut up. I'm a hand raiser in worship. Which is crazy because, like I said, I didn't grow up in church and, you know, it wasn't my thing. Every now and then when I get real passionate in worship, I'll put both hands in the air. Well, since I got this diagnosis, worship was the hardest thing for me to come back to.

And so now, oftentimes when I worship, I only put my left hand in the air, because that's the hand and the arm that is most affected by what's going on. And so for me, I just say, you know, today I choose to worship with my bad arm and -- sorry. It's a --

Jennifer Rothschild: You're killing me, man.

Shawn Johnson: I know. I'm killing me too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, that is so --

Shawn Johnson: It's a reminder to me that I can worship through some things, it's a reminder to God that I'm not going anywhere, and it's a reminder to Satan that you don't get to win. So if you're hurting, if you don't know what to do next, call somebody who will pray for you and just go spend some time in God's presence.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that right there is what it sounds like to whistle. That's right there what it is.

(Singing) He said the cancer's back and he's afraid. He wonders why. So do I. And his greatest battle is against his fear. It's so unclear. He wonders why. The God who heals won't reveal himself in ways we understand.

She said her baby never had a chance to breathe. So she grieves. So do I. And she struggles with the bitterness and loss, but she looks to the Cross, and she cries. And in the mystery we trust and we adjust and we wonder why.

Oh, take me to the Cross and cry each of my tears. Hide me in your tomb, crucify my fears. I'll praise you with my pain, though the mystery remains that you are a God who cries. You are a Savior who died. We can trust you with why.

So I travel down this bumpy road called faith, and with blind eyes, I still try to embrace all that I can't understand, like your kind plan, your merciful plan. And I'm not angered, I am anchored, yet I feel weightless, and I am hateless.

Since you took me to your Cross and cried each of my tears. Hid me in your tomb, crucified my fears, I'll praise you with my pain, though the mystery remains that you are a God who cries. You are a Savior who died. We can trust you with why.

I'll ask you why, why this grace? Tell me why, why such peace? Tell me why, why such love? I'll praise you with my pain, though the mystery remains. You are a God who cries. You are a Savior who died. We can trust you with why.