4:13 Podcast: What Whitney Capps and Point of Grace Have To Say About It [Episode 359]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer Rothschild. You know I love my audiobooks from Audible. That's how I'm able to read so many books in a year. If you've never tried it, you can get a 30-day free trial with no obligation. Plus, you'll get a free audiobook of your choice that you can keep. So go to 413podcast.com/Audible to get started. And now, the podcast.

I cannot wait for you to hear this today. Point of Grace and Whitney Capps join me for a Fresh Grounded Faith in Springfield, Missouri, and there was just something very extra special about it. I don't know, maybe it was because Whitney Capps was right in the middle of cancer treatment. Or maybe it was because Point of Grace modeled just such beautiful friendship and humility. It was just so inviting.

Or maybe it was because a woman in the audience wanted to know how old KC was because she wanted to set him up with her cousin, Brenda, who loved to dance. Do you remember that, KC?

KC Wright: Oh, I remember.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, we discussed if the Point of Grace women have ever had any girl drama. I mean, we need to know these things. Whitney gave such practical ways to manage disappointment. And I'm just telling you, this was fun and deep and funny and wise and just what you need today. So let's spill it.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, everybody, and Brenda, if you're out there listening.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm sorry, I'm doing it. I'm keeping it. Don't ask me to edit.

It's me and KC. We are in the podcast closet. This is Jennifer. And our goal is to not only set KC up with a wife -- I'm just kidding. You're going to kill me. Okay. But it's to help you be and do more than you feel capable of. It really is two friends -- and I'm just having fun with him -- one topic, and zero stress, though KC is probably a little stressed right now because I'm messing with him.

But anyway, you guys got to hear this. It was hilarious. A lady in the audience really did ask about that.

KC Wright: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So sorry, KC. But anyway...

All right. I'm bringing it back down. Let's get serious. This is the 4:13 Podcast. And KC came in this morning with exuberance, telling me he found this beautiful translation or paraphrase of 4:13.

KC Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I want you to read it for me.

KC Wright: Can I?

Jennifer Rothschild: I didn't get to hear it yet. Please.

KC Wright: Yeah. It's Philippians 4:13 AMPC.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amplified something.

KC Wright: Classic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay. Okay.

KC Wright: Yeah. Listen to this. "I have strength for all things in Christ Who empowers me [I am ready for anything and equal to anything through Him Who infuses inner strength into me; I am self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency]." Woo!

Jennifer Rothschild: That's an interesting ending, "self-sufficient in Christ's sufficiency." Because if Christ is in you, then, yeah, you can trust that sufficiency, and it comes across like self-sufficiency. Like, you don't need anything but Christ in you.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's really beautiful.

KC Wright: Isn't that beautiful?

Jennifer Rothschild: I think Brenda's going to love that. Maybe we'll read that at your wedding.

KC Wright: Listen --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sorry, sorry, sorry.

KC Wright: -- I have to tell you my bird's eye -- I have to tell you my view of this whole thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, yes.

KC Wright: I don't know if I ever told you that.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. What?

KC Wright: But, you know back in the day, I worked in Christian radio, and I played Point of Grace all the time. As a matter of fact -- this is really bad. Don't tell anybody.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: But I would delete some songs in the music rotation that the music director had put in there and I would replace it with Point of Grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's awesome.

KC Wright: And I told the girls that. Because there were some songs on my show that wouldn't wake me out of a daydream. So I would remove them and I'd put Point of Grace in there. Like "Shall We Gather At The River," right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, yes.

KC Wright: So can you imagine? Here I am, I am a huge fan of Point of Grace. I'm up in the balcony at this church, Point of Grace is on stage, and they start saying from the stage, "Where's KC? Where's KC?" And never in a million years would I think in the future, Point of Grace will be sitting on stage in front of thousands of women trying to set you up. Set you up. Find you a wife in the audience.

But you know, this is 2025, which Jennifer renamed 2020-thrive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: I've renamed it 2020-wife.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh! There you go.

KC Wright: Yeah. We need to get married by Christmas.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, I like winter weddings. I don't have to let my arms show. That's nice. KC, I just know there is -- the Lord has the right woman for you.

KC Wright: Well, the clock is ticking. I'm not getting any younger.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I know.

KC Wright: And I want some children.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: More.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Brenda, if you're postmenopausal, you're out. Sorry.

Okay. Anyway, one of my favorite things about that event, KC, where Point of Grace and Whitney Capps were, is you having those Point of Grace women, like, all standing around you and hanging over you. It was the funnest thing. We just had a good time together.

KC Wright: I have that picture. I'll put it on -- can we put the picture on the Show Notes?

Jennifer Rothschild: We'll put it on the Show Notes.

KC Wright: I went in for a picture with Point of Grace, and they said, "Oh, it's time we give you a KC sandwich."

Jennifer Rothschild: They did. They got all around him. It was adorable.

KC Wright: Oh, they are so real and authentic.

Jennifer Rothschild: They are. They are.

KC Wright: They are the Wilson Phillips of Christian music.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's a good way to put it.

KC Wright: They are. But I think they're even better than Wilson Phillips.

Jennifer Rothschild: They are so much better. And they're still better. I mean, they are still -- they're just -- they never age.

KC Wright: Man, every year I go to Fresh Ground of Faith and it just -- that was the best one. No, that was the best one.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, I know.

KC Wright: I'm telling you, this one, it was the --

Jennifer Rothschild: It was special.

KC Wright: Oh, it was special.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I will say this, because we've given Point of Grace all the love. I call them The Points. We've given The Points all the love. Y'all, Whitney Capps is unbelievable.

KC Wright: Unbelievable. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: She really is. She's funny, she's deep, she's so smart. But y'all, she was in the middle of cancer treatments and she had such joy, such insight. I mean, KC, let's just introduce -- now, I don't think these women need introduction, but since they've not been on the podcast, let's introduce The Points and Whitney, and then we'll get it moving.

KC Wright: Whitney Capps is a national speaker for Proverbs 31 Ministries and the host of the Theology and Other Fun Stuff Podcast. She's a mom of four boys. She needs our prayers. She lives in Atlanta. She's the author of "Sick of Me" and "We Over Me," a video-based Bible study. She calls herself a cancer steward, a Bible geek, and she loves Coke Zero and Guac.

Point of Grace has been in our hearts for the last 30 years, with total sales of over eight million. The group has garnered two platinum records, three Grammy nominations, and numerous Dove awards. Point of Grace has released ten best-selling studio recordings, four Christmas albums, and tons of number one radio hits over the last 30 years.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thanks to KC.

KC Wright: Whitney cracked me up because she knew every one of them --

Jennifer Rothschild: She knew every lyric.

KC Wright: -- by heart. She was fan girling like never before.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

KC Wright: And if -- Point of Grace is going to stick with us another 30 years, and we'll call them Grannies of Grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: Grannies of Grace. Yeah. They can sing at your wedding.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, here we go. Let's Spill the Beans.

KC Wright: That's right. Also, I cannot wait to hear this. So here is Whitney, Jennifer, and The Points, also known Leigh, Shelley, and Denise.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's get the Point of Grace up here --

Whitney Capps: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and dry our tears. Come on, Points, let's go.

Whitney Capps: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness. We are going to Spill the Beans. And I've also just got to say, wow, your concert, your songs, your harmony. But you know I was also thinking? What a picture of faithfulness. Sometimes we think, wow, they've been so successful for 30 years. May I redefine that. Wow, they have been so faithful for 30 years. It looks like success on the outside, but what you really see is obedience and humility and faithfulness, and it comes across as success. And I admire that and appreciate that about y'all.

Whitney Capps: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I don't understand it, because I'm a few years older than you, and our voices change as we age. Not theirs.

Whitney Capps: No kidding. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: What in the world?

Whitney Capps: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I will say, if one of you goes down, Whitney is in.

Whitney Capps: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm telling you, she knows every lyric.

Whitney Capps: I do know every lyric.

Jennifer Rothschild: Not just a few.

Whitney Capps: That is true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Every.

Leigh Cappillino: She knew every lyric.

Jennifer Rothschild: Every lyric.

Whitney Capps: I do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Whitney Capps: It's kind of obnoxious.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can't remember my children's names. She remembers every lyric.

All right. Now, you guys -- during the break, I went back and went through your Spill the Beans cards with our National Conference Director, Terrie Bitter. And you asked some really good questions. This is a smart, fun crowd --

Whitney Capps: Not surprised.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- as you've already figured out. So we pulled some of the questions -- we don't have time for all of them. So we pulled the ones that represent most of your questions. Shelley, are you going to be asking the questions for us?

Shelley Breen: I have them right here.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right.

Shelley Breen: They are smart and funny.

Jennifer Rothschild: They are. All right. So we're just going to spill the beans and see how far we get.

Shelley Breen: Okay. This is a really spiritual one --

Whitney Capps: Give it to them.

Shelley Breen: -- and it's to Jenn. "What color and brand of lipstick are you wearing?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Whitney Capps: Good question.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's girl talk. We got to know. It's Clinique.

Shelley Breen: Clinique?

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it's Shy. Can you see that? How old are your eyes?

Whitney Capps: I have my glasses.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Shelley Breen: Whitney has her glasses.

Whitney Capps: I have my glasses. I don't go anywhere without my glasses. It says Sky. 37 Sky.

Shelley Breen: 37 Sky.

Whitney Capps: So 37 Sky.

Shelley Breen: Clinique?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's Clinique. And it stays on. Okay, so now you know. Now you know.

All right. Next?

Shelley Breen: Okay. I'm really interested to see your answer in this. It says, "Jennifer, would it have been easier to have been born blind than to lose your sight as a teen?"

Jennifer Rothschild: See what I mean? They're so smart.

Shelley Breen: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: What an interesting question. I don't know because I've only known one thing. But here's what I do know. Elizabeth Barrett -- Browning? -- yes -- once wrote, "Tis better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all." And so I consider that concept.

And I was born with sight, and I am so grateful for that. Is it better to have had it and lost it and, therefore, have to grieve and navigate the loss than to have never had it? I kind of think so. And the blessing is I have a beautiful library in my mind of colors and -- well, I can't remember people's faces anymore, but I did once see my people's faces. But I'm so thankful for that. For that reason, I also have a good sense of spatial awareness. I'm just thankful.

But the bottom line is I'm going to be thankful whatever the thing is, 'cause it's just easier.

Shelley Breen: Whatever the "it" is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whatever the "it" is.

Shelley Breen: Okay, this one's for Whitney. It says, "My friend has cancer. How can I best support her while she is going through treatment?"

Whitney Capps: Ah, that's really kind. I will tell you, the thing I've struggled with, next to not being a great mom -- because I miss stuff. And that's hard. The way my friends have loved me that's meant the most to me -- and we have been cared for in myriad ways.

But they would call and invite the boys to come spend the night or to take them to see a movie and let them do fun things that I felt like, especially when I'm on treatment, that I can't do. I had chemo last week. I'll have it again next week. And on Friday night, Tate wanted to have a friend spend the night. And I was like, "Buddy, I just -- I can't, I can't do it tonight." That very night, a friend called and said, "Can Tate come spend the night with us?" And it was just the sweetest grace that people are stepping in to help provide my boys a normal, you know, childhood in a way that really matters.

The other thing I would say is just know in a season of suffering, probably whatever you're in, I'm a really bad friend. And I feel ashamed about that. But sometimes -- I know this sounds stupid -- even the mental work to respond to a text or to answer a phone call, sometimes I just don't have it, and that makes me feel bad. And so just being a friend that knows it is not personal. Sometimes it's just -- I just don't have the energy. And so just, you know, give us grace.

Shelley Breen: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really good.

Shelley Breen: This person also said, "I admire you very much."

Jennifer Rothschild: I think we all wrote that question.

Shelley Breen: Okay, this is for Point of Grace. I just love that band.

Whitney Capps: They're great.

Shelley Breen: "What is your story for how you came together?" That's the first part, so one of you can answer that. And then, "Where did the name Point of Grace come from?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooo, I want to know that.

Denise Jones: All right. Well, I'll try to do it real quick. We were actually in college together. We began as a foursome, for those of you who've been following us since the Say So days. We were at Ouachita Baptist University, not too far, you know, south of here.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Denise Jones: We were in school together, we were in singing groups together at school, and one night in a dorm room, literally, we decided to make this group. It was actually going to be a trio originally. And then I went home and told Shelley about it, and she said, "Well, I want to do it," and she took over.

So we started traveling summers. Our school was super sweet and supportive of us. They provided us a little sound system. We would go to camps and tell about Ouachita and also lead small groups and all of those things, and lead worship and things. So that was great.

We got discovered at a place in Colorado and we won the group competition there. And a guy from Word Records was there and started coming out to see us and brought us to Nashville to do a couple songs to see if they liked us, and they did. So we started singing together. That's, yeah, that's kind of how it started.

And the -- oh, the name Point of Grace.

Shelley Breen: The name Point of Grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, were you Point of Grace at that time?

Denise Jones: We were Say So at that time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Say So. Okay.

Denise Jones: Let the redeemed of the Lord say so. And there was another group called Say So. They kindly had been longer, and they wrote us a nice little letter that said, "You really need to change your name."

Jennifer Rothschild: A/k/a cease and desist.

Denise Jones: Cease and desist.

So we had our photo shoot done, we had the record done, and we had to come up with a name. So we went to our manager's house one night and spent -- there was all kinds of names. Like people -- we'd have a contest. I can say this in a group of women. People would write funny names like Octohooters and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

Denise Jones: -- just stuff like that. Funny names.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

Shelley Breen: I don't think we have ever said that from stage.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's awesome.

Denise Jones: I know. But it's females, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Whitney Capps: Hilarious.

Shelley Breen: Well, if she's going to say that one, another name that somebody sent in was Aroused.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Shelley Breen: That was the name they -- can you imagine? Please welcome Aroused. No.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Whitney Capps: Oh, mercy.

Jennifer Rothschild: They knoweth not what they say.

Shelley Breen: No, not what they say.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Shelley Breen: Yeah.

Denise Jones: But anyway, the guy that signed us had actually written -- and we've looked it up and we can't find it. But he had been reading a C.S. Lewis book. We don't know which one. He thought it was "Surprised by Joy," but we can't find it. But it was saying the sentence of what God was showing him was, "We live every day at the point of God's grace." And he had written that phrase down. And we were four young girls who had just come to town, and we were feeling just that need of his everyday grace. And we still, more than ever, feel like we need his day-to-day grace.

Whitney Capps: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. Point of Grace.

Okay, so I just got to know a practical thing. So y'all have known each other 30 years. What about girl drama? Do you have any? Do you always get along? Like, do you have your roles, everybody stays in their lane, or do we get a little mm-mm with each other every now and then?

Shelley Breen: I mean --

Leigh Cappillino: Well, the good thing --

Denise Jones: What'd you say, don't be intimate? I mean, don't tell everybody everything?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right, right, right.

Denise Jones: I'm kidding.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Leigh Cappillino: The great thing is -- the building blocks of all of our childhoods is we had sisters, and so --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Leigh Cappillino: And they were sisters where you learned to share mirrors, you shared bedrooms. You know, it's unheard of nowadays. But we shared bedrooms and, you know, things like that, so I think that helped with just that yin and yang.

We have over time -- you know, you hopefully mature. Hopefully mature. But we can definitely pinpoint what Denise is great at, what I'm decent at, what Shelley's great at, and we've just been able to be confident in that --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Leigh Cappillino: -- because, you know, it's again giving God glory for our stories.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that's good.

Shelley Breen: Yeah, not too much drama, so it's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is good.

Shelley Breen: Okay, this is for Jenn. "Have you ever been mad at God? And is it okay in my prayer if I tell him that I'm mad or confused?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's always okay that you pray honestly to God. Whoever wrote this, you should read Psalm 13, because David basically pours out his heart to God and says, "Have you forgotten me forever? Why are you hiding your face?" That could be based on anger or fear. We don't know what he was feeling. But, yeah, we tell God how we feel.

Have I ever been mad at God? My personal answer is no. Now, let me explain why real quickly.

I'm a psychology major. Okay? I was a psych major in college. So, like, I know there's got to be latent issues underneath. So I'm like, "Everybody always asks me if I'm mad at God. I've got to be mad at God." Where is my anger? Where did I bury it? To whom did I repress it? You know what I'm saying? Like, I've really searched thinking I must be. And I can honestly say I'm not.

But it's not because I'm holy. Well, I'm made holy by God. But it's because I think early on, I just really loved Jesus. I really did. And I think just early on, before I became blind, I had such a love and respect for him that when I did become blind, it was almost counterintuitive to be mad at him, because I already loved him and I already trusted him.

And I will say over the years, I recognize how very much -- like, I love my children. And if I, as a fallen earthly parent, allowed my boys to experience their own hardship for whatever reason, it was a greater sacrifice for me than it was for them. Because everything in me wants to rescue and to fix, right?

So why could I be mad at God, who gave his life for me? I just can't be mad at him. And bottom line is, when I'm mad at somebody, you know what I do? I separate myself from them. And I can't do that. I need God too much. I mean, it would be the dumbest thing I would ever do.

So there's lots of reasons why, but that's not been my struggle. But if it is yours, you respectfully -- we respectfully tell God he is holy, he is other. He's not your BFF. He loves you better than a friend could. But if we express anger to him, we do it within the confines of respect for his kindness and authority.

Whitney Capps: Can I add a thought? Because I struggled with this for months. Because my fear was in wrestling with all the emotions that I felt, I don't want to end up like Job, where I hadn't revered the Lord.

And so I'll just give you this practical prompt that I came up with. I would say, "God, you've hurt my feelings," and I would write all the feelings that hurt. But I would close every journal entry with, "But I trust your heart."

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Whitney Capps: So that I knew I was honest. And my feelings are not reality. His truth is reality. But I could at least say, "God, you've hurt my feelings," and I would tell him, and then I would say, "But I trust your heart."

Jennifer Rothschild: And, you know, that's Psalm 13. Because that's how David ends Psalm 13, "I will trust in your unfailing love." Yeah, that's good stuff.

Shelley Breen: This is for anybody that wants to answer it. "Which prophet do you relate to the most when it comes to these hard times that we are in?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Shelley Breen: I know. That's, like, a deep question.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I'll start, just because I've written on the minor prophets. You know, sometimes I think Jeremiah because I weep. But honestly -- I'm going to be super honest -- sometimes when I'm weeping about suffering, it's because how it affects me, not how it's affecting everyone else. And I think Jeremiah wept more for everyone else. So that would be too unworthy for me to say that.

So I think Amos. Because I think Amos, he was willing to go to a place that was hard for him and he was willing to speak the truth no matter what. And when things are hard, I find that doing hard things kind of helps displace a little bit of the self-centered hardness -- of the hardness I might feel, if that makes sense.

Shelley Breen: That's good.

Whitney Capps: I think John. Because he wrote Revelation, and so there's an apocalyptic kind of prophetic element to that. But what I love about that is that he was so forward focused. And I think in a hard season, for me, it is just what you taught on last night, that this is so temporary. Or was it today? I'm in a time warp.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't remember either.

Whitney Capps: I don't remember what day it was. Anyway...

But as hard as this is, it is fleeting and temporary. And so I think kind of John's -- even, you know, as he was on the Isle of Patmos, kind of that forward view of he wins and we know the end kind of changes how we sort of kind of stumble through today maybe.

Shelley Breen: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: You got one, Shelley?

Shelley Breen: No. I'm just a question asker, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Sorry. Yeah. That's right, we're staying in our lane.

Shelley Breen: Jennifer, this is a really quick one. Who sings "Safe In the Arms of Jesus"?

Jennifer Rothschild: "Safe In the Arms of Jesus" from the Psalm 23 Bible study, I had to give a shout out. That's Michael O'Brien, former lead singer of NewSong.

Whitney Capps: That's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: So Michael O'Brien. Yeah, you need to check him out if you don't know him. But, yes, he sings "Safe In the Arms of Jesus" on Psalm 23.

Shelley Breen: Okay, this is for you too. It says, "How old is KC? My sister was left a widow three" -- Why are you laughing? I don't know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Where is KC? Is he in here? He's my Seeing Eye Guy on my podcast.

Whitney Capps: Where is KC?

Shelley Breen: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, he was up there this --

Shelley Breen: Okay, let me read it. It says, "My sister was left a widow three years ago. And she lives in Wisconsin and we really want him back home. Could you introduce her to KC? She is 51 and absolutely sold out for Jesus. Her name is Brenda. She loves to dance."

Jennifer Rothschild: She loves to dance! Okay, give me that card. I'm giving that to KC.

Whitney Capps: That's so awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, thank you. Moving on.

Shelley Breen: Okay, I love this, because we obviously have some new believers here. We've talked a lot about the Gospel. And somebody says to Whitney, "What is the Gospel?"

Whitney Capps: Gospel means "good news." It's the good news. And so there are lots of ways that we can cash that out. But the shortest version is that we were sinners and separated, with no way -- there's a bridge to cross a great divide.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Whitney Capps: There's a cross to bridge the great divide. Listen to the song. Sums up the Gospel perfectly. Anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

Whitney Capps: But we couldn't get to God, and so God came to us and Jesus lived a perfect sinless life. And then, as Jennifer said, he took the death that would have been ours. And so when we put our trust in him, he gives us the life that should have been his, and is in the resurrection, so that we can live and walk with him. But essentially the Gospel is good news.

Now, for the Christ-follower, if you're trying to figure out how to share the Gospel and you're wanting to talk about it, in my opinion, the easiest way to do it -- there are really two critical questions, and it is, who is Jesus and what did he do? And so if you're thinking about sharing the Gospel, that's a great way to have conversation with anybody. What do you know about Jesus? Who do you think he was and what do you think he did? And then it gives you an avenue to talk about the Gospel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Brilliant.

Shelley Breen: So good.

"Denise Jones, where did you get those fantastic pants you had on last night? I love the texture from a distance, and I really need to know."

Denise Jones: Thank you.

Whitney Capps: That's good, girl.

Denise Jones: Actually, y'all, we'll tell you this. Because people ask us a lot about our outfits and stuff. And, you know, we're not these big groups that get all these endorsements and people do all these clothes and throw clothes at them and they always have something new to wear. And the biggest problem has been Instagram. It's killed us. Because every time you have to show yourself on Instagram, we're in the same outfit. You know what I'm saying? Because we don't have enough money to go every show and have a new outfit.

Well, we discovered this thing called Nuuly. And I wish we had a rep here because people have asked us that twice.

Jennifer Rothschild: How do you spell that?

Point of Grace: N-u-u-l-y.

Whitney Capps: Y'all need to put your code on your Instagram bio. Go through their Nuuly code, because y'all get credit.

Denise Jones: We don't know how to do that.

Shelley Breen: Help us out, somebody.

Denise Jones: Anyway, it's just a prescrip- -- a subscription thing.

Whitney Capps: That's so great.

Shelley Breen: It's prescription clothes.

Jennifer Rothschild: For the clothing-impaired, it's a prescription. Helpful. Thank you.

Denise Jones: It's a monthly thing. And you get to pick, like, five outfits per month. And you just get to pick it, and then you get to send them back, and then you get to try something.

Whitney Capps: It's the best.

Shelley Breen: You get to pick six things. And if you really like something, I would suggest ordering it in two sizes, because you never know which one's going to fit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh. Nuuly. That's helpful.

Shelley Breen: Yeah. It's like $100 a month, and it works pretty good, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nice.

Shelley Breen: And then if you don't like something, you can just wear it one time, and you just wad it up and send it back.

Denise Jones: You don't have to wash it or anything.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shelley Breen: Can each person give one tip for self-discipline. Starting with Whitney.

Whitney Capps: Oh, you have asked the wrong person, y'all. This body was sculpted by Double Stuff Oreo's and queso. You don't need to ask me.

Shelley Breen: Yes.

Whitney Capps: I don't know. Listen, if I knew, I'd look real different than I do, y'all. I mean, I -- I don't know.

Shelley Breen: Moving on to Denise.

Whitney Capps: I really don't. I really don't. I guess I'm not sanctified enough. I will just say -- here's all I know. Don't wait to feel like it. So just -- like, when I think about particularly Bible study -- y'all, I love God's Word, and I'm never sorry that I did it, but I don't wake up every day thinking, I can't wait to be in God's Word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Right.

Whitney Capps: Sometimes there's a to-do list a mile long, and I don't want to get to it, and so I -- just don't wait on a feel to, I guess this may be all I can say.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Whitney Capps: I don't know.

Denise Jones: Yeah, I think that's really good.

Yeah. You know, for me, I am not the organized one of us girls, of the three of us, and I kind of can go to chaos and all of those things. And if you saw my closet, it's just a mess all the time. So it's hard for me to be disciplined.

I will say this -- not over-spiritualizing it -- I truly started asking the Lord to help me. And we had a girl speak to us a couple years ago that just said, "You know what? God just does things in the morning." I don't know why, but he does. And I challenge you to start waking up when the sun rises, because there's not that to-do list of all the chaos, your brain hasn't started going completely crazy --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Denise Jones: -- there's a quietness in there, and just do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Denise Jones: And I just said, "Lord, help me do it." And he has started to awake me and I don't just hate crawling out of the bed. And it really has been a God thing, I can only say. But it started with me just saying, "Lord, I can't do this. I need you to help me."

Whitney Capps: So good, Denise.

Denise Jones: And the fact that the Lord has taught me to trust his voice, and so I want to hear it. I used to not always want to hear it because I was scared or didn't like what he was going to say to me. And now I can trust his voice, and so it makes me want to have a conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's beautiful.

Whitney Capps: That's so good.

Leigh Cappillino: Well, when we were writing that book, for me, what makes me happy is -- what I call my little personal trinity -- is in the morning spend time with the Lord, work out for 30 minutes, and have a decent meal for my family on the table. And if I can do, I just feel a little bit better.

Whitney Capps: That's nice. That's good.

Shelley Breen: Mine would be just kind of writing out my day, what it's going to look like, the night before or the afternoon before the next day. That kind of helps me, like, stay on track and stuff. I do like the getting up early thing before your phone starts dinging. You can get a lot of stuff done.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really good. Okay, I love this. It's super helpful.

Mine is a little bit like Whitney's. I would say I do what I dread. So whatever I dread, I do it. Because otherwise it looms over me and gets larger in my imagination and then I start to react to it with dread and I procrastinate. So it helps me to first do what I dread.

The other thing I have learned is to touch something once. Just touch it once. So that helps me with self-discipline. Because before I engage in something that I'm going to leave unfinished or undone, I think through can I accomplish it so I'm going to only touch it once? And that helps me.

Shelley Breen: Okay, that's great.

And these are the last questions. I'm going to kind of marry the two together because they kind of go together. And they're for Jenn. "What was your most memorable story from all of your conferences?" And then, "What do you plan to do when you stop traveling for conferences?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, boy. Okay. Well, I'll tell you what I plan to do, but then I want us all to give a little bit of a memorable story, so start thinking.

I am going to -- Fresh Grounded Faith will retire at the end of 2025. Jennifer Rothschild will not retire at the end of 2025.

Whitney Capps: Praise Jesus. Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: I will -- so when I'm not doing Fresh Grounded Faith, I'm doing all sorts of other events all across the country that keep me very busy and grateful. I will continue to do those. We are also praying about another maybe smaller kind of event. So please stay tuned. Please know we are not ending; we are changing. We are not finishing; we are transitioning. So enjoy next year, but do not stop being my friend, 'cause I'm going to still be around and I will be lonely if you stop hanging out with me.

Whitney Capps: That's awesome.

Shelley Breen: Okay, we have about one minute left. Does anybody have a quick story?

Jennifer Rothschild: Who has a memorable event?

Leigh Cappillino: Just memorable for me is our Christmas tours. Especially when our kids were really, really little, they would come out on the bus with us. And I think what I loved so much about it was we got to invest in their lives while they saw what we did for a living, and that was a great -- those were great memories.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's great memories. And you know what for me? This is a great memory. Have you not loved being with The Points and Whitney? You guys are the best.

By the way, I would like to also say that I wear the same clothes at all my conferences also. And my social media people, KC, they used to beg me, "Could you please change clothes, because all your pictures look identical. No matter what city you're in, you look identical." So I'm definitely checking out this Nuuly that they mentioned.

And by the way, we will also have a link to Michael O'Brien's song that we talked about, "Safe In the Arms of Jesus," from the Psalm 23 Bible study. We'll have a link to that also on the Show Notes, plus the Point of Grace song "Great Divide" and all sorts of music. I think KC even mentioned earlier "Shall We Gather at the River." So we'll have all their songs where you can easily link to them on the Show Notes.

KC Wright: Yeah, these are Show Notes you do not want to miss. We will also have links to our girl Whitney Capps' podcast and all their books and music. So go there, 413podcast.com/359.

Jennifer Rothschild: And by the way, you did hear me answer about finishing up Fresh Grounded Faith. And I didn't want any confusion, so let me just make sure I've told all our people. Fresh Grounded Faith will be finishing in 2025, this year. So this fall, our last five events -- these will be the last five events ever for Fresh Grounded Faith -- I'm calling it the Grand Finale Tour. Now, do not think that means I'm finishing or I'm retiring.

KC Wright: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: In fact, stay tuned. And if you've not ever signed up for my Java with Jennifer newsletter, please do so, because I'm going to be doing something very special in 2026. Besides all the events I already do, we're going to be doing a special tour, and I want to make sure you guys can be a part of it. Okay. But I also want to make sure that you don't miss out on Fresh Grounded Faith, if you want to come this fall, because it really is a special event. So those will also -- those tour dates will be on the Show Notes also.

KC Wright: And you can always find our girl right here. So if you love the podcast -- and I know you do -- please tell us by leaving a review. Because when you leave reviews, it helps all the things reach just one more heart for Jesus, and that's what it's all about.

Get with your people, spill the beans. We need each other. And you know what? You know the ending. Whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Margaret Feinberg at Fresh Grounded Faith Bloomington, IL [Episode 357]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name.

So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on The 4:13.

We are spilling the beans today, and you are about to learn so much. I did. We are talking about how to handle stress, how to move on when you lose somebody that you dearly love, how to know when and if it's okay to step away from a ministry, how to practice defiant joy, and -- fun fact -- how Phil and I met.

And you're also going to hear how Michael O'Brien, who was the former lead singer of NewSong, like, why his identity may have taken a hit when he left the band NewSong. And lastly -- this is going to be the funnest -- you are going to find out what happened when Margaret Feinberg showed up to a speaking event without her pants. Yes, her pants. You don't want to miss this. You're going to love it, so let's go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. Happy July. Happy July 4th actually. I'm Jennifer, and that was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And we have one goal, and it's to help you, along with us, live this "I Can" life, to be who God has created us to be, to do what he's called us to do all through the strength that he gives us for his glory for the good of all those around us.

So we're so glad you're with us today. And I got to say, I'm happy you've joined us for this conversation. It is funny, and it's deep, and it's interesting. And, yeah, probably the best part will be what happened when Margaret Feinberg -- who is an author, by the way, who's going to be on the podcast in a couple weeks, KC. She has a new book on the Holy Spirit. Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Ooo.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is so good, y'all. So stay tuned. In a couple weeks we're going to have Margaret by herself. But anyway, on this one she's going to talk about something far less spiritual, when she forgot her pants at a speaking engagement.

KC Wright: That's a big deal.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a very big deal. It could ruin your ministry.

Anyway, I don't know if y'all -- if you're listening in the United States, you might be doing something fun this weekend for July 4th. I'm all ready to go. I have the one thing I need, KC. Do you know what the one thing I need is for July 4th? Besides coffee.

KC Wright: I have a holy hunch.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, what? Oh, okay.

KC Wright: Go ahead and tell them.

Jennifer Rothschild: My fan. My battery-powered fan. But, no. I have two of them.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I have my venti fan, which I've talked about before on the podcast. And I'll have a link to it. But it's this little cool thing that literally -- it will do up to 40 hours.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's got an adjustable arm. I can sit it on the ground in front of me and it'll blow on my face. But then I also have this little neck fan that looks like a pair of old-fashioned headphones and it's blowing right on my face. Y'all, I am the happiest when I am the coolest.

KC Wright: God bless America.

Jennifer Rothschild: God bless America.

Anyway, I'll have links to them on the Show Notes, because women always ask me -- not as many men -- but many women ask me, "Where'd you get that fan? Where'd you get that fan?" Girls, we do not like to be hot, do we? I mean -- yes, we are hot. But we don't want to be sweaty hot. Okay.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: We want to be hot because we are beautiful women.

All right. Anyway, Happy 4th of July if you're in the U.S. And we're so glad we get to celebrate. We're grateful for our freedoms. So let's start this celebration by just kicking back and joining this conversation at Fresh Grounded Faith.

KC Wright: Yes. This Fresh Grounded Faith was in Bloomington, Indiana, with Michael O'Brien and Margaret Feinberg. We will have links to both these amazing people on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/357, because you will want their books and music after hearing this incredible insight.

So I know I say this all the time, but I'm going to say it yet again. These Spill the Beans, they are my favorite podcast. They are my favorite episodes. I listen to them over and over again. So pull up a chair, there's room at the table just for you.

Michael O'Brien: This is for you, Jennifer. "Where did you get those amazing boots" and -- only at a women's conference -- and, "How do you do your hair and makeup? Because, girl, you are so cute."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, thank you, Michael. So there were several questions about my makeup and my boots. These are from Target, my people. Target. Yes. That means they're not that expensive. So next year when they're absolutely hideous, I won't care. I can get rid of them. I did have to walk through, like, a field of sequins to get here, though, it feels like, they're just so sparkly.

But I also was asked several times about the skin tightener. Just so you all know, I'm not neglecting answering that. I'm going to send you an email at the end of the week that will have a link to it. It's by Peter Thomas Roth. And I will send you an email, so you don't even need to worry about that yet. So I hear you, my people.

But then also the makeup. Do it all by counting. Like, I learned when I was 15 how to put on my makeup by counting. And I knew, you know, like, how many brush strokes to do on my cheek, et cetera. And the same works for mascara and lips and all of that. And I've had to accommodate it differently for aging and style changes.

And I will say this, now it's getting a little rough where -- like, things are changing, and so -- like, one of those is mascara. So my lashes are so much thinner, and I don't know where they've gone until I'm putting on foundation and I feel them right there on... [touches chin]

But when I'm on stage, I do wear false eyelashes. And I must give major shoutouts to my stud husband who learned how to put false eyelashes, so he does this for me.

Michael O'Brien: Very interesting.

All right. "Jennifer, Margaret, what is the best way to handle stress and worry? How to move on after losing a loved one?"

Margaret Feinberg: I'll take the stress and worry. I'll let you take the losing a loved one.

Stress and worry. I've become more aware about how God has designed our bodies. And we need to surround ourselves with things that are comforting physically before we get to the spiritual. That may mean having a cozy blanket. It may mean having a place where you don't allow the -- just one chair in your room. None of the worries are allowed to come in.

You can't make lists, you can just sit and be at peace. I think about music that can be played that can, again, pull us out of the reptilian part of our brain, which is stress and worry and anxiety. Pull that back down so we can get better in to using both sides of our brain.

Also tapping on your chest or on your hand for a few minutes can help tremendously. Also counting down from 100.

And so those practical things can help calm your body and your brain down enough so that you can engage in talking to God about what you're feeling, saying those daily declarations. But don't miss that there's a very significant physical component to this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Man, I'm so glad you brought that, because we do often neglect the physical. And we are fearfully, wonderfully made and we do need to do that. That has helped me, by the way. When you said that, I do that. I will rub the top of my hand sometimes just to engage my body and to -- almost like I'm soothing myself. And it helps me calm down and then be able to focus. That's really good.

Michael O'Brien: You're on the losing a loved one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Losing a loved one. You know, it's interesting, the timing of that question. Well, first of all, probably the person who asked it has lost a loved one, and you are feeling that loss daily and it is hard to move on. And so just know that we care about that. I'm sorry. I know that's hard. And grief is this weird thing. It's not got a period at the end of the sentence; it's an ellipsis. And it shows up all the time. It just never ends.

But this morning as we were worshiping -- I lost my dad in 2018. And thankfully that pain has gotten better. But there are times still when it just stabs me like, oh, man, I wish he were still here. He just brought me such comfort and such stability, and I wish he were here for my mom, and I just wish he were still here.

And so this morning as we were worshiping, I literally had this moment where I was like, I'm in this room of women and we are worshiping, but my daddy is at the throne right now and he is worshiping. And I have probably never been closer to my dad than I am when I am worshiping, because he is in the presence of the Lord, fully alive, worshiping. And so when I am in the presence of the Lord here worshiping, it's like we are connected.

So I don't know if that is an encouragement to you. But if the person you lost is a believer in Christ, you just know that when you are worshiping the Father, you're doing the same thing your loved one is doing. You are as close to them during that moment as you were when you were here on earth. And maybe that's just a very small, practical way to move on. But I don't think we ever move away from grief; we just move through it. So this concept of it's time for you to move on, says who? We move through; we don't move on.

Michael O'Brien: That's good. I know my name wasn't on it, but I just want to say one quick thing. Sometimes -- like, my wife fights manic depression, bipolar, and sometimes she can overextend herself, which can cause stress in her life, because there is an expectation on her that even the church can put on you because you're a member of a church. So I think you just have to be very careful about what you allow in and even have those moments as Margaret's talking about. Very good stuff.

I don't know about the tapping of the heart. That's really interesting. I'll have to talk to you about that later.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: "How can you tell when God is calling you to step back from serving in a ministry that he called you to serve in the past?"

Margaret Feinberg: Can I go?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I'd love it.

Margaret Feinberg: I think when you've lost your joy, when you don't feel that spark of delight, it's probably time to step back. And I know some of you are in that position right now and you're like, but if I step back, no one else will do this. And that is not true. And you're like, no, I have to be the only one. No. If you step away, eventually someone else will take that spot. And it may not be identical or one like it.

And then what's going to happen is they're going to grow and be able to use their gifts. And you get to take a little while, rest, and then say, "Holy Spirit, what are you calling me to do today?" And then go and follow where the Spirit is leading you next. But staying in a position too long when you're fried or tired, not fruitful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I was going to say a very similar answer. That when your dread of doing the thing outweighs your delight, or at least pragmatism of doing the thing, when there's so much emotion that's toward the dread, it might be time.

And, you know, Margaret, you're right, sometimes we stay because we're like, well, if I don't do it, no one will. Well, technically, yes, because you're still doing something maybe you shouldn't be doing. But if you do step away, then someone else can rise up.

The other thing I have learned -- and I'm not a big gardener, so I am very -- you can correct me later. But I'll still get it wrong next time, so don't waste your breath. My understanding is when you have a tree that is growing, sometimes there's these branches at the bottom that are suckers. And sometimes until you cut off the sucker, the tree is not going to grow to its full potential.

And it's not that -- you know, that word "sucker" in our vernacular sounds like, well, that ministry's not a sucker. It's awesome. It has virtue. Well, sure it does. But if it's not what you're called to do still, it's going to suck all the nutrients out from you being able to grow in other areas. And so it takes humility to step away, and it takes wisdom.

And here's the thing. I tell my kids this, you know, especially as they're getting into careers and stuff. It's like, you can't really make a wrong decision when you're following the Lord. You just go with where you feel like he's leading you. It's not going to be wrong. Even if it may be the wrong timing, he's going to make it right. So rest in it and just trust what he's calling you to do.

Michael O'Brien: That's good. I was going to say also just -- we have seasons in our life, and sometimes we want to hold on when we should be more open hand. Like, what is really -- maybe somebody else could step into that situation that is going to maybe not be as good as you at that moment, but ultimately they're going to get in that role, like Margaret said. I think seasons, open hands always. And I've had to learn that as a musician too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, this is interesting. This is for me. "Please sing 'Arise, My Love.'"

Jennifer Rothschild: I didn't write that. I just want you to know, I did not write that. Because I love it when he does it.

Michael O'Brien: Sing "Arise, My Love"? Like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Just the chorus. Can you just sing (singing), "Arise, My Love"? Do you know that song?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you know that song.

Michael O'Brien: All right, here we go. (Singing) Arise, my love, Arise, my love. The grave no longer has a hold on you. No more death's sting, no more suffering. Arise, Arise, my love."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Michael O'Brien: All right. So, Jennifer -- back to you, Jennifer. "Did you go through the stages of grief after your diagnosis? If so, how long did it take you to find your way back to God's love and grace? What did this process look like?"

Jennifer Rothschild: I love this question. I think it's so interesting. Did I go through the stages of grief? You know, there's different stages of grief, like anger, denial, acceptance, et cetera, and we're not going to go through all of them. But then I noticed the second part of the question, how long did it take you basically to get back?

So I think one of the things we can keep in mind is that we can experience loss and grief and that doesn't mean we lose intimacy or relationship with God. That can all be done at the same time.

So this process of lamentation, of lamenting, like Psalm 13 -- I would encourage you to read Psalm 13. Because the psalmist is basically expressing fear, concern, worry, feeling abandoned. He's expressing his feelings. And then he's even kind of saying, And here's what I need from you, God. I need you to enlighten my eyes or I'm going to sleep in death. Like, this is rough. But then he gets to the end and he says, "But I will trust in your unfailing love."

So all this is happening at the same time. So we can process our pain in the presence of the Lord. There can always be nearness to the Lord, even when we are experiencing great pain.

So for me, was there that process of those stages because blindness is a loss? Yes, there probably was. And they also probably mirrored my level of emotional and spiritual maturity at the time. So were there times as a teenager when I was just a lot more selfish, self-aware, and for me that I experienced maybe some more anger? Yes.

Michael mentioned seasons. Are there still seasons when I live with just maybe a little more denial, like, okay, if a sighted woman can do it, then I'm blind, I'm going to do it even better? Well, that's kind of a silly denial that I still will sometimes go in and out of.

But has there always been an acceptance on a deeper level because of Christ? Yes. That's because of grace. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think we ebb and flow through these things. I think we need to always be patient with ourselves. I don't think there's ever an arrival until the day we pass from death to life and we see Jesus and we are known -- we know him and we are known just in that fully and complete way.

So I think in the process of it all, we just take our time with just accepting and grieving as we go. But we always end it with praise. I mean, if you look at every lament psalm, they always end with praise --

Michael O'Brien: It's true.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- affirmation of trust and praise.

Michael O'Brien: "Margaret, since writing 'Fight Back With Joy,' what new items have you added to your dream list?"

Margaret Feinberg: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's an older Bible study.

Margaret Feinberg: That's an older Bible study. "Fight Back With Joy" came out probably circa 2014. So I've written "Taste and See: Discovering God Among Butchers, Bakers & Fresh Food Makers," looking at food in the Bible, and it's a great Bible study.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

Margaret Feinberg: You can invite everyone and -- "Neighbor, do you want to come and eat and talk about ancient texts?" "Sure." You know, better than the, "Come study Leviticus." And I've written the James and the Revelation and the "More Power to You," so a number of new things.

Jennifer Rothschild: What kind of things -- so was there something in "Fight Back With Joy" that you talked about that brought you joy or that was on your bucket list or --

Margaret Feinberg: That was actually talking about when -- I wrote a whole book on joy and then I was diagnosed with an aggressive form of cancer. And that book trashed my life, and it trashed my book. And I so had to look for joy in the midst of just real darkness. And so that's what that book -- it's just a lot of really practical tactics on how to practice a defiant joy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Defiant joy. And you've done it well. Thank you, Lord.

Michael O'Brien: This is for me. "When did you know that it was time to start solo career?" I think it was over a period of time, probably when my wife and I started getting better and I realized that -- didn't you say something about joy? I didn't have any joy anymore when I was with them. I loved them, but I was losing that joy because I knew God was calling me to something else.

Plus, my young boys would always say, "Hey, where's Dad" -- you know, Mom would say, "Where's Daddy?" and they would go, "Daddy's on the bus." I mean, that just -- it just hit me hard. So I was like I got to get -- and that first year I got home, I coached their baseball. I was their head coach. It was really awesome, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I have a quick question about this. So it's interesting to me -- did your identity take a hit?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. I mean, yeah, absolutely. And we were singing in front of 25, 30 thousand people a lot of times, and I went from there to, you know, singing in front of 15, 20 people at a Michael O'Brien concert. And you know what? We all have egos as artists, you know, we're always having to die to that stuff.

But I realized that even in those sweet moments of when I was leading worship and those 15 people were singing, I was like, you know what? I don't think I'd rather be anywhere else than right here. I still had peace, even though my pride was being hit at and -- but, I mean, when we're in Christ, we die to ourselves daily anyway.

So it was just a constant lesson even. And then I ended up getting, you know, in front of bigger crowds. But I never ever look at that as, oh, that's -- now I'm successful. Because the numbers game will destroy you. And as an artist, it destroys me, so...

My son laughs at me, because he's got, like, a million followers and they listen to his music. And he's like, "Hey, Dad, how many you have?" I'm like, "Well, you don't need to worry about that right now. That's none of your business." Anyway...

"How did you, Jennifer, and your husband meet?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, how did me and Phil meet? Well, we were at Palm Beach Atlantic University, and I was a freshman and he was a sophomore. And so I met this guy named Tony Moseley, and Tony was this very tall guy from the Cayman Islands. Had this British accent because he had gone to boarding school in England. And so -- he was so eloquent. And he was roommates with Phil Rothschild.

Well, Tony and I started dating. And I liked Tony. I liked him. Great guy. But he could sense that I probably didn't, you know, like him as much as he liked me. And so we were driving from West Palm Beach to Miami -- he was taking me home on a particular Friday -- and so he says, "Jennifer, I've just been curious. I sense that perhaps your affections are not toward me. So who do you like? Curtis?" "No." "Steven?" "No." "Dale?" "No." "Phil Rothschild?" Silence.

So Tony was gracious enough to introduce me to Phil in the cafeteria line a couple of days later when we got back to school. And honestly, at that point I was like, "Tony who?" I had met the guy. I thought he was the most charismatic, cute, fun, smart guy. And so it did take him four years, but he did accept my marriage proposal. Lucky me.

Michael O'Brien: All right, Margaret. "I am my worst enemy. I know that the Lord is with me, but since I keep going back to being fearful, I just feel like he should give up on me. How do I get out of mine and his way?"

Margaret Feinberg: There's a lot in there. I'm feeling that there's some shame about feeling fearful. And there's Christians who will -- and this is all true. Jesus says, "Fear not." There's that every day of the -- you know, 365 in the Bible. It's actually not exactly that number, but we won't go into that.

But I think that there should not be shame for having fear. Fear is a physiological response that -- God has designed your brain to give you fear to protect you. And so there are healthy fears. And so we as a Christian community need to recognize that fear can be very, very healthy.

Now, when it becomes unhealthy is that fear begins paralyzing us from walking in the fullness of our potential and the promises and the purposes of God. And so I think when that starts to get a grip -- I think a couple of things. One is the way that our brains are designed -- sorry I keep going back to this. Fear and love, the transmitters that transmit fear and love cannot do it at the same time. So where there is fear, love is absent; but where is love, fear is absent.

And so taking ten minutes a day, putting together a list of Scriptures about how much God loves you, and again reading those, saying them out loud, can really start to help you feel and experience the love of Christ.

I also -- I believe God gave us imagination. One of the things that I do is I imagine myself with Jesus, like he's here just sitting on a bench, and I just put my little head on his shoulder. And just that sense of he is real and he is here and he loves me, all the sudden the fear just starts to scurry you away.

And I would also encourage you if you haven't, talk to a good counselor who can give you some wisdom and give you some skills and some healthy coping mechanisms to be able to push back the fear. And don't forget to do your daily declarations.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's good stuff. And shame off us. Shame off us. Yeah, it's okay to be human. It's okay to be human. And fear is part of being human. That's really good tactics. I love how practical you are with your brain science. Thank you.

Michael O'Brien: "When you struggle with others, how do you" -- this is for everybody -- "how do you voice your hurt and work through that with them and yourself? Hurts happen, so how can we move forward from the brokenness?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, this is hard. How many of you out there don't love confrontation? I don't like it. I would rather carry the hurt and bury the eventual resentment than confront the situation. So I'm going to answer honestly.

When I do, first of all, I pray. I really pray before I talk to somebody about the hurt. But then just in a very practical sense, y'all, when we talk to someone about our own hurt, we do not use "you." "Michael, you," and you and you and you. It would be no -- Jennifer would say, "Michael, I felt when I heard you say." "I feel when."

And so we always use "I" language first because that's just a more respectful way to communicate. It also helps the person you're talking to not be on the defensive immediately. So try to use the "I" language more than the "you" language.

And then here's the thing that's hard. Sometimes it ends well and everybody is mature and spirit filled and you end up singing Kumbaya and hugging. And other times it doesn't. And how do you move on from the brokenness? Well, you move through it. Again, we got to be patient with ourselves to know sometimes it takes a while and we don't get over things, but we get through them.

But I had a situation with a person who I could not confront, who did something very hurtful and wrong and unjust. And I will tell you, it took me forever to forgive her. And you know what really helped me the most? Was finally realizing, oh, I am just as wrong as she is right now by not forgiving her and by harboring resentment.

And when I finally got down on my knees and I was like, "God, please forgive me for my hatred" -- I hated her. I hated her. "Please forgive me. You died for her. Please forgive me," then I was able to move through it. I haven't forgotten it, but I don't hold her accountable for how she hurt me anymore. I don't. I'm good with God about it. So I think sometimes we just have to own our own sin in the situation and trust God with all of the broken parts.

But that's how I deal with it. And like I said, I'm not good at all that. That's just how I'm learning. Those are some things that have worked for me. What about you guys? Are you a confronter?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, go ahead.

Jennifer Rothschild: Margaret? No.

Michael O'Brien: Two things. Don't text.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's so smart. Do it in person.

Michael O'Brien: If you are going to -- if you can't do it in person, even -- you know, get on a FaceTime or something face to face is probably the best.

Other thing is, once you do that -- and let's say it doesn't end well. Sometimes those relationships don't work out and you can't mend it, so you just have to -- I mean, you think about the Bible. Paul -- there was confrontation and there was a separation. It doesn't mean that they want them to go to hell and they want us to go to hell, it's just we just have to release that relationship, it's just not healthy. But definitely do it in person or over the phone, face to face.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word. Because we do resort to texting. It's easier.

Michael O'Brien: So we only have really room for one more. So this is -- "what is your most embarrassing moment?" Margaret?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we got to hear Margaret's.

Margaret Feinberg: Oh, my gosh. Okay. I was at an event -- and we already know I'm a little spacy, right? "Hi, I'm Margaret." And so I forgot to pack pants.

Jennifer Rothschild: Pants?

Margaret Feinberg: Pants. And so it was at a retreat center, and so I quietly asked the organizer -- I was like, "Can I borrow a pair of pants?" Like, I needed jeans or anything other than my sweatpants to wear on stage. And so I thought she would be discreet. And then instead, she got on the radio and says, "Margaret needs a pair of pants, a size blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Can somebody please bring a pair?"

Michael O'Brien: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's awesome. That's just awesome.

Michael O'Brien: That's very touching. That was good.

Okay. So I'm doing a gig at the Rusty Bucket. It's in South Carolina. It's a very small town and there is nobody around. And basically I go get my soundcheck, and the guy gives me a T-shirt that says "Rusty Bucket." And he goes, "Hey, man, would you mind putting that on for the concert?" And I was like, "Sure. Happy to." So nobody was there except me and the sound guy, so I took my T-shirt off, put my shirt on, and then I realized my pants did not match. My wife's always in my head. And so I decided -- my car was parked right in the alley.

And so I had it all I set up, had my pants, the shorts that I was going to put on, and nobody around. And so I opened it up and I'm sitting there. And I pull my pants down, but I do that final look. And I look to my right, and the promoter's wife, daughter, granddaughter. Three generations. And they did the -- you know the back up, I didn't see? And then I had to have lunch with all of them. And the granddaughter never looked at me once. All right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that both of your stories are about pants. I know what both of you need for Christmas.

All right. Mine -- you know, I really, really wish I could think of something better than this, but honestly, it's not been worse since the eighth grade. My worst one was in the eighth grade. I had just started shaving my legs. And I have very thick hair, y'all, super thick hair. Which is a blessing up here; not so much on your legs. And so because I had just started shaving, if you know about this, like, if you stop, it comes back thick and coarse and prickly.

Well, we were driving two and a half days to get from Miami, Florida, to Asheville, North Carolina, so I decided not to shave my eighth-grade legs during that trip. And so when we arrived, we got -- we were going to be at this family camp. So my brothers and I go up this mountain to recreation and we meet all of our friends that we're going to spend the week with up in -- dividing us up into teams.

And so as an icebreaker, the game that these, I'm sure, college students who think it's funny decide is we're going to play a game called People Passer, which meant that every team, which had about, you know, 40 students, they would line up face to face, fingertip to fingertip, 20 on each side, and then the person who weighed the least would be chosen to lay on her back and be passed quickly down the row of people. And whoever's person got there first, won. Well, it was me. I was like, 90 pounds.

And so I'm laying down on the first set of hands and we hear the whistle blow, and then all these hands are passing me. Every hand was rubbing my leg. Every voice was saying, "Oh, disgusting. Why don't you shave your legs?" "Ouch. What is that? That hurts." "Oh, shave your legs." It was awful. And then I had to spend the whole week with these people with my hairy legs. That's how I got to know them.

But honestly -- this is an absolute truth -- I do not speak untruth on the stage or off the stage -- and it is this: I literally have not missed a day shaving my legs ever since. I mean, like, you could feel them. You are not welcome to, but you could feel them. There's no hair there, and there never shall be in the name of Jesus.

All right, the beans are officially spilled. Thank these guys.

KC Wright: This is why I love Spill the Beans. And my biggest takeaway, next speaking event, make sure I pack my pants.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do not leave home without your pants.

And by the way, you guys heard Michael O'Brien. He mentioned that his son's music is really doing well. His son's name is Joseph O'Brien. I don't know if he said his name. But we will also have links to Joseph's music because you're going to want to hear his music. And we'll also have links to Joseph's Instagram and his socials, because that way you can follow Joseph and Michael O'Brien will have more to whine about because Joseph will get even more followers.

KC Wright: Oh, yeah. I have a daughter, a teenage daughter, who loves Joseph O'Brien --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: -- let me tell you. Yes.

We will have also the links to Margaret's books and Bible studies, plus Michael's music, plus a full transcript. 413podcast.com/357. So go there, get connected.

All right. Until next week, get with your peeps and spill some beans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Because here's truth, we are just better together. You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can. All right, now go get your firecrackers, KC.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And your corndogs and whatever else you do on 4th of July.

KC Wright: I love America, land that I love.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Ann Voskamp at Fresh Grounded Faith Chesapeake, VA [Episode 324]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer Rothschild. You know I love my audiobooks from Audible. That's how I'm able to read so many books in a year. If you've never tried it, you can get a 30-day free trial with no obligation. Plus, you'll get a free audiobook of your choice that you can keep. So go to 413podcast.com/Audible to get started. And now, the podcast.

Well, friends, you are going to a Fresh Grounded Faith today with me, Ann Voskamp, Tammy Trent, and Michael O'Brien. So pull up your chair because we are going to be talking about the importance of community, what to do if you feel anger toward God, how to memorize Scripture, and there's even a special and hilarious call-out to all the single ladies. So let's spill the beans.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that was my buddy, that was my Seeing Eye Guy, KC Wright. And it's just two friends right here smushed in the closet, just talking about one topic with zero stress. And if you've been hanging out with us a while, you know that our whole goal here is to help you be and do more than you even feel capable of because you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13, Christ's power in you to accomplish what you could never accomplish on your own for his glory, for the good of his people. And on and on Jennifer could go, but I shall stop.

All right. So me and KC have missed you. It's been a week. Hope you've had a good week. Have you had a good week, KC?

KC Wright: You know, I have.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right.

KC Wright: It's been a good week.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it when we've had a good week. Good weeks are fun.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I will tell you this. This conference that I was at, this Fresh Grounded Faith, it was a good conference. But what happened after, hmm, not so good.

KC Wright: Uh-oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I got to tell you before you hear this conversation. Because I was with the Ann Voskamp, the lovely --

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- deep --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- amazing Ann Voskamp. Right?

KC Wright: Her writings make me cry, and I'm a dude with a beard.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: I mean, she touches my heart every time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Dude, I could read her grocery list and probably rededicate my life to Christ, because she's just -- she's amazing.

Okay, so here's what happened. She lives in Canada, if y'all don't know this. And so we're leaving this conference, me and Ann and my husband Phil, and we're changing planes in -- I think it was Charlotte. So we fly from Virginia to Charlotte, and it's one of those things. Delay, delay, delay, change the plane. Well, that meant that Ann's flight to Canada and our flight back to Missouri were all getting delayed, and then eventually you can imagine what happened. We get to Charlotte and everything is canceled, because by the time we get there, it's so late. We get there at about 11:30. Well, it was weather. So every hotel that we could have possibly gotten in was booked. Because Phil, you know, was immediately trying to work this out, because we've been in the airport at that point six hours and blah, blah, blah. I'm not even going to tell you all the miserable details, because it doesn't matter. The bottom line is Ann, Phil, me, stuck in Charlotte, with no hotel, at 11:30 at night. Okay, so here's what my brilliant husband did.

KC Wright: Goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's these things called Minute Suites, and it's where you really just kind of can pay the hour to go take a nap, you know.

KC Wright: Okay, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not meant to spend the night in there. It's a little room, just slightly bigger than our podcast closet, and in it is a -- oh, what is that called? Not a futon. Kind of like a futon, you know --

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- where one person could sleep on it, or you open it and you can sleep very snug with someone else. There's a table in it, and that's it.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then down the hall is a bathroom. And I can't even remember how much you pay per hour, but at this point we didn't care. So Phil, brilliant husband that he is, he calls the Minute Suites. And he's like, "Do you have any available? Do you have two?" And the guy was like, "Yeah, we got two." "How many hours can we keep it?" "Well, you can keep it up to eight hours if you'd like." And so he said, "Well, we only need six hours." So Phil and me smush in one of the Minute Suites; Ann smushes in the other. We've got no blankets, no pillows. Just a couch. No -- nothing.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we're like, "We love you, Ann." And she sleeps in her little Minute Suite; we sleep in ours. We all, you know, go to the bathroom in the middle of the night down the hall. Next morning we're up at 6:00 AM catching our flights. It was the funniest thing. So Ann and I have the best memory now that we slept in a little tiny closet in the Charlotte Airport together. But I'm telling you, we paid less than we would have paid if we had stayed in a hotel, plus we didn't have to go through security.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it was really brilliant.

And then the last thing I'll say about this is this. So that weekend, Ann had told this moving story, and she talking about just difficulties in our families and stuff. And so one of the things she did is tell this old -- I think it was a Spanish or Mexican legend about a white horse. And y'all will have to look it up and read about it. But basically, you know, a family gets a white horse. And then something happens that's very negative, and so the villagers are like, "Oh, the white horse, bad, bad, bad." And then the next week something happens that's good because of the white horse, and the villagers are like, "Oh, good, white horse good."

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, and it goes on and on. And so the point of the legend is we don't know whether the white horse -- only God knows whether it's good or bad, the white horse. So Ann and I were laughing saying that was both a good and a bad white horse, being stuck in this airport.

All right. So all that is the background, and what you're about to hear happened before all of our airport fiasco. But we start with Michael O'Brien, and he's going to start with a really heavy question. But then we go straight in to Tammy Trent -- who is hilarious, by the way -- and she's going to talk about finding love again after losing her husband.

So, you know, KC, we're just going to have links to all of our amazing friends and their websites and their socials so that you 4:13'ers can follow them. But we're just going to go ahead and spill the beans.

Michael O'Brien: All right, this is to Jenn as well. "I believe God is always at my side, but it's been so many years since I've heard from God and his will and purpose over my life. Not sure there's any reason to keep going. I feel like God has been done with me for years now. I am a faithful believer, but feel my life is over."

Jennifer Rothschild: So when I heard this question, I felt I needed to address it, we needed to address it. But as I was listening to Ann, I thought, Thank you, Lord. Whoever wrote that question -- I don't know if you noticed, but Ann Voskamp was speaking directly to you. Yeah, you are a miracle.

But also the reason I wanted to address this, sometimes when we think it's just emotional blues, the severity of those kind of statements says two things to me. You need to tell someone other than us, like a trusted Christian friend, and it might also be very wise for you to see a doctor and tell a doctor those things. Because sometimes we have things going on physically that can just totally disrupt and deceive us mentally. And I would be a good steward of the life that God did give you because you are valuable and a miracle. Tell a friend and go to a doctor, please.

Michael O'Brien: So, Tammy, this is for you. "Did you remarry and/or have children?"

Tammy Trent: So I have not remarried. I dated for the first time about eight years into my loss. It was really good for me because it taught me that I wasn't stuck, that I could love again, and I needed to know that. But it wasn't a forever relationship and -- but it wasn't anything wasted, which I'm so grateful God wastes nothing. I learned so much through that in six months and just -- it just wasn't forever. And there was a huge age difference. I mean, he was 12, so it was really tough. He didn't have a car; he lived at home. You know the story. It was hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're so funny. Here's what I want to know. Someone asked me. Have you not remarried because of disinterest, the man hasn't come along, or you could never love anyone as much as Trent? Or do you have an answer?

Tammy Trent: I know I have the capacity to love again. I absolutely do. But I have not met a man that to me measures up to what I had in my life. And so, therefore, I won't -- I know the value of my life. I know the gift that I am. I know it. I recognize it. I believe it. When God says, You're beautiful, you are valuable, I've got something special for you, I took him at his word, so I'm like, I'm hanging on then.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Tammy Trent: Bring him over here because I'd love to kiss somebody again. So I'm hanging on. But I'm waiting for God's best for my life and I just don't want to settle. I have healed. I've taken a long time to heal all through these years. So why would I now just want to just, Okay, let's just do it. You're super hairy on your back, but I'm okay with that. I have a vision board, girls. I have a vision board. So I'm waiting for God's best.

And here's the thing, Jenn. I feel so fulfilled.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I can tell.

Tammy Trent: I genuinely feel fulfilled in my life, and I look at what I do have rather than what I don't have. What did God give me? I'm grateful. I'm thankful. Ann, when you talked about that, I'm like, I've really had a heart of, like, God, thank you for giving me so many great years with Trent that I experienced love the way it was meant to be, I believe.

And so if it doesn't come around again, grateful that you gave that to me in my life. But what do I have now? I've got so much adventure, I've got so many other things in my life. So I try not to live in the disappointments of what could have been, but in the hopeful expectations of what could be.

Ann Voskamp: So good. So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: And this is why we love Tammy Trent.

Ann Voskamp: Yes. So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, Ann, this is to you. "What are your three gifts today?"

Ann Voskamp: Oh, I like whoever asked that question. Well, how about this? Jennifer Rothschild is --

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Ann Voskamp: Truly. I was in Nashville, and they were asking if I was headed home, and I'm like, No, no, no. I get to go and hear the heart of Jennifer Rothschild. So every room that you're in, everybody else has experienced a profound gift. So thank you, Jennifer and Phil. I was really grateful -- you know, I'm so grateful for the body of Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Ann Voskamp: I'm so grateful to sit in a room of women -- and kind men, kind men -- who truly are the fragrance of Christ. And I'm really grateful -- I'm really grateful that when people are vulnerable and share their God stories -- like, everybody is walk -- we all need to really encourage and edify each other by sharing. You know, this is a real dark valley, but look how God is working in the midst of that. I find that so -- so I'm just so thankful for Sarah who shared yesterday. I mean, how long were we with each other? And we got out of the vehicle and we talked -- I mean, we had -- she said, "I didn't realize we were going to dive that deeply so quickly." But that's what the body of Christ can be for each other. So I'm just so grateful for you all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ah, that's beautiful. Thank you.

Tammy Trent: Can I just ask a quick question of Ann? You have great hair.

Ann Voskamp: Oh, I have terrible hair. Oh, my gosh.

Tammy Trent: You do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Men care.

Tammy Trent: Vitamins --

Jennifer Rothschild: Phil is looking at every man's hair. Oh, he has great hair, he has great hair. I'm like, I had no idea men cared so much about hair. They do the older they get.

Michael O'Brien: No comment. Okay.

All right, this is to everybody. "How do you deal with lack of empathy when going through a long -- or a period of trial?"

Jennifer Rothschild: I felt like this question spoke to the weariness perhaps that this person perceives of others when they've been in a long struggle. You know, if somebody's been sick for a long time. Or maybe you have a special needs child and you start to notice that people's empathy at the beginning is huge, but the longer that it goes on, maybe the less you detect the empathy from others. Sometimes it's compassion fatigue.

What do y'all think? How does one -- if you are on the recipient end of what you perceive as a lack of empathy, how do you handle that?

Ann Voskamp: I think it's really -- just being part of the body of Christ. Because not one person can carry someone else's burden. We all have to do that together. So I think in my own life, having covenant friends, the people who are saying, like, "I am in this." But there's a community of six or seven so that we can all come alongside, because we can't -- we are called to lean in and have compassion, co-suffer with someone. But we need a body to do that together. So I think -- have you put yourself in a place that people can come around, but also not to have expectations that only one person can do that. You're going to need a community to do that. And I think being part of a church that's really intentional about do we have a ministry that's reaching out to people who are walking long, hard roads.

Tammy Trent: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I think that's good. And I was just thinking, as you said that also -- because you mentioned the word "vulnerability." I think sometimes we need to be honest.

Ann Voskamp: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sometimes if we look like it's good, people don't realize it's not good. And they think you're good, you're managing your life carrying this burden for 30 years. You got this, you're okay. And so perhaps one does not recognize they need to express or show empathy because you've not been vulnerable enough to say you need it. So that also is a part of being in a community and being honest.

Ann Voskamp: And I wonder if compassion fatigue happens when we're just -- well, we think we have to pour out of ourselves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Ann Voskamp: But if we are a people who are filling up with gratitude for the grace upon grace upon grace upon grace that we've been given, then it's actually a joy to pour out because we've been filling ourselves up in the presence of the Lord. So I think for us to give, we have to be in a place that we are receiving from the Lord and sitting in his presence.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. I'm not going to add to that.

So everybody, how do -- oh, it's the same question. Change that. To all of us, "How do you keep from getting angry at God?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Does anybody have a -- I know mine. I'm too needy. I need him too much. It would be the most counterproductive, dumb thing I've ever done in my whole life to be mad at the God of the universe, who can supply my every need, loves me more than anybody will ever love me, and I'm going to be mad at him? Because then that builds this barrier between me and him, and I need him too much. Okay, that's the practical.

But I'll be very honest, the deepest part of my heart. I don't feel comfortable being angry at him. I don't feel like he's worthy of anger. I feel like he's worthy of honor. And we can get frustrated and mad and all that. But I put myself on a very high pedestal if I think I have the audacity to scold God or be mad at him. Our life is a miracle, and I want to be grateful for it. So that's just me. And if you're not there, I hope God gives you the grace to get there, because life's better when you love him more than you're angry.

Ann Voskamp: I think in my own life when I have been angry at God, especially -- Monday will be the third anniversary of losing Dad the same way we lost Amy. And anger towards God is so kin to pride. How dare I think that I know a better way than the One who is the Way himself? I might look at the story and say, Well, I would write that very differently, but that would be the pride of exalting myself to God. And the only one who knows the way this story interacts with that story, which changes this story over here, impacts and has ramifications for that story over there, is the One who is the Way himself. Which keeps me in a posture of humility before his sovereignty and trusting that though I might not like the way this story -- this sliver of the story is written here, ultimately he's the author of the whole story that he is writing ultimately for great glory everywhere and my ultimate good.

So for me, when I move towards anger, I'm like, I know what -- that's a posture of pride, and I want to move in a posture of humility and gratitude before the God of the universe who is writing a universal story across the cosmos.

Jennifer Rothschild: Everyone's good.

Ann Voskamp: Yes.

Tammy Trent: Yeah, I've had to go through and process through that in my life too, and been angry. And I can still struggle with moments of when something goes wrong around the house and I'm the only one there. And if Trent were there, he'd be able to figure it out, but it's just me. So I have these moments. My relationship with Jesus is very deep and genuine, so I run to him first, and he's the first I say, "Why don't you fix this for me?" And I'm upset, and why -- you know, I'm in it with him in that moment. I feel like we're having this conversation, he's just listening, and I'm just like ooh, until I finally just fall apart in tears in a ball and just -- I get to that point of just it's -- it's just all right there. It's just right there, God. Everything, you have it all. And I think he meets me there. Well, I know he does. He meets me there every single time. And one, I give myself permission to go through it all, to feel it.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's smart. That's wise.

Tammy Trent: Because when I do, I always find him.

Ann Voskamp: Yes.

Tammy Trent: I find him there. And he reminds me that I'm not alone, that he understands, that he feels with me, that he hurts with me, and that we're going to get through it together, that I do nothing alone outside of his will for my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Tammy Trent: So I don't know if that might help somebody to know, like, you're not alone in that. You're not disqualified because you have a set of emotions. You know, Jesus had the same kind of emotions, you know.

Ann Voskamp: David, the whole Book of Psalms, he's like --

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm so glad you said that. That is so true.

Tammy Trent: Honestly, that --

Ann Voskamp: He wants us to wrestle with him. The worst thing would be the apathy or the walking away. He wants us to pour it all out. And he's big enough to take all of the emotions.

Tammy Trent: Exactly. And I believe that for me, I actually find healing in that for my life because we have that conversation together. It always comes back to him and me quick to say, "I'm so sorry, Father. I'm sorry that I just blew it in that moment." And I just feel held. I feel totally valued in that moment in that he loves me so much that he says, I want you to have this moment because I'm going to rescue you every single time, Tammy. And the more that I do, the less that I find that I have those moments.

Ann Voskamp: That's good.

Tammy Trent: So please don't feel disqualified, but process through it. Don't -- the Bible says, "Be angry, but do not sin."

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tammy Trent: So it doesn't say you can't have these moments, but don't have them in sin and don't let them cause sin in your life. So there's a balance there, girls. There's definitely balance.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's definitely balance. I'm so glad you pulled that out, because that is absolutely true.

Ann Voskamp: Yes, yes. We get to lament.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we do.

Ann Voskamp: We really get to lament.

Jennifer Rothschild: But all of the lament in Scripture ends up in praise or affirmation of God's character.

Ann Voskamp: It does.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Michael O'Brien: All that's so good, I don't think I could add any more again. But I will say this one thing, because I think Scripture is -- we need Scripture, because there are things in Scripture that point us. And Job is a really good place to go. He literally says, "The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord." And then it says, "In all this, Job did not sin or charge God with wrong."

And I think ultimately that should be our hearts. We should fear the Lord in such a way that we know that he's good even in the midst of horrible, horrible tragedy. And I'm not even going to sit here even trying to put myself in your place, Tammy, especially. I can't even imagine life without my wife. So that's a difficult trial that the Lord gave you, and I pray that -- even as last night, you just glorified God. You just continue to glorify God in it --

Jennifer Rothschild: It does. She does.

Michael O'Brien: -- and I praise God for it.

So that being said, "Jennifer, how do you memorize Scripture?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, memorizing Scripture?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So all of us can do this. I just happen to have to do it because I'm blind. But all of us get to do it, and all of us are capable of doing it. But I will say there is a discipline involved, and a training. It becomes a mindset. Like, I don't listen to anything for the first time without a posture of memorization as I listen. So I think -- I mean, there's a million tips I could probably give you. But I use certain mnemonic devices, I have certain visuals in my mind's eye. I listen, particularly strategically, when I'm hearing anything, so I'm constantly alliterating things that I hear. I will say this. I was just on a podcast which I would highly recommend. It is called Memorize What Matters.

Ann Voskamp: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And my episode is not out yet, but I was so impressed with this guy. And it's all about Scripture memory.

Ann Voskamp: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And when I looked at the other episodes, there are so many different techniques that I was so impressed by. And I told him I'm going to share this everywhere because it's a great resource we need. It's called Memorize What Matters. The guy's first name is Josh. So just affirm by that name when you see it.

But anyway, I spend a lot of time listening to Scripture. Whatever you're familiar with is what you're going to default to emotionally and mentally.

Ann Voskamp: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's the main way I start.

Ann Voskamp: So good.

Michael O'Brien: That's good.

Tammy, what's the best advice you can share -- sorry -- to get a widow on the road to healing?

Ann Voskamp: Wow. Great question.

Tammy Trent: Well, I've met many of you. Our journeys are all so, so different and I don't know your backstory. But for me, I knew enough that I needed community. We talk about that a lot. I needed God's people, I needed a healthy church, I needed healthy friends. So immediately -- for one, I came off of the road because I knew I didn't have a whole lot to give. I knew that I needed people to be able to pour into my life and I needed to allow that to happen in my life, for people to give to me. And I have a hard time asking for help, so I knew I needed to put myself in that place. So I surrounded myself with amazing friends. So you've got to have a great circle of support and great friends. For me, it was girlfriends, my sister, my mom, my best friend. And I do a lot of trips. So I plan -- even still to this day all these years later, probably every three months I have something to look forward to.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so healthy.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's very good for your brain.

Tammy Trent: Yes. And it's the simple stuff. But I have something to look forward to so that when I find myself in a really hard place emotionally, mentally, whatever, I go back to, But you've only got a few weeks. You've got a few weeks and you'll be in Mexico, you'll be in New York City, you'll be in Las Vegas in a week. So I have things to look forward to.

I also got a gym membership. Simple stuff. I knew that when the -- when the sunshine would fall and it became night, those were the hardest times for me. So instead of sitting in my home feeling depressed going through all of the heaviness and the darkness in my life, I made myself pack my bags and go to the gym for three hours. Now, I did not lift weights for three hours. I know it's hard to believe that. I know that's hard. But I would go lift, I would do other things. And I would sit in a sauna and I would talk to people and let them speak into my life. They'd ask me what's going on. And I always took those opportunities to share Jesus with them, because it always led to Jesus. "Well, I'm widowed, I just lost my husband." "Oh, I'm so sorry." I always followed up, "But God has brought great healing in my life." And then it's like, "How has he done that?" So I always look for opportunities. But those are things I did. I just surrounded myself.

So for you, please don't sit too long. Keep moving, keep breathing, whether it's the music, whether it's books. Whatever you have to do, you have to make intentional choices in your life to accept the invitation of healing in your life. And it's going to take work. I think for me, it's been hard. I've had to put in a lot of hours to heal and to choose healing. But I surround myself with good people, good church, good community, and I make plans to keep moving, to keep breathing, and to let joy be the foundation of my life. Things are going to shift, they're going to change, but the joy of the Lord will never change in your life, and it is the foundation of your life. You can lean on it, you can believe in it, and you can trust in it, that joy will come in the morning.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Ann Voskamp: Thank you, Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: Both kinds of morning/mourning. M-o-u-r-n-i-n- --however you spell the rest of that.

Well, I've heard Ann Voskamp say, "If you ain't got no joy, you ain't got no strength."

Ann Voskamp: That's right. The joy of the Lord is my strength. If you let something steal your joy, let something steal your strength.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's so good. It's such an inspiration.

Now, I know this isn't one of our questions, but I have to ask this real quick. Okay? So one of the things I've noticed about grief for me, perhaps any of you who have grieved -- like with blindness. I grieved, of course, blindness early on. But I have found that I will grieve blindness as I age during different seasons. When I had grandkids, it killed me not to be able to see those grandkids. You know what I mean? So it's like having to renegotiate and renavigate the grief all over again. Does that happen with you?

Tammy Trent: Jenn, I think it does. It's funny. There's certain things that are now happening in my life. For example, at 56 years old, I am now seeing my dermatologist every four months. I found a couple basal cell cancer spots and I've had a few other scares. First time I went in, it was on my head, and they had to cut this, like, two-inch something, and my whole skull was wide open. And he showed me a picture of it and I almost fainted and I -- you know, it was just an awful, awful experience by myself. He stitched me up, and I went into the car and I just cried. I just lost it, because I thought here as I'm getting older, these things that -- you know, it wasn't life-threatening, but I'm facing these scary things alone by myself. So I think as I'm getting older, those things are happening, physical things are happening that I wish I didn't have to go through alone. Now, thank God I haven't gone through ever the feeling that we didn't get to have children. That didn't happen for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: That was not a grief for you that you --

Tammy Trent: I don't know what -- the grace of God. Because I love kids so much, but it didn't happen. But again I started looking at, okay, what do I have then? I've got my nieces and nephews, so I get to pour my life into them. And we have the best relationship. I'm Aunt TT. It's the best. We load up, we head to wherever --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I have no doubt you'd be the funnest aunt in the world.

Ann Voskamp: Totally.

Tammy Trent: And I love it. So again, what do I have? I get to pour into my nieces and nephews. When it's their birthdays -- they're, like, 29, 30, 25. Now they're older. And I'll send a text and just speak into their life. This is what God says of your life. I love you. I see the day you were born. Man, it changed my life. I'm so grateful for you. God sees everything. No matter what cloud is hovering over you today, sunshine is on the other side. They're like, Aunt TT --

Jennifer Rothschild: I want to be your niece.

Tammy Trent: But I love it. I have the time to invest in their lives.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's beautiful.

Tammy Trent: So I do go through different things -- thank God I haven't that -- because, again, I try not to stay there too long.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And that's the wisdom right there.

Tammy Trent: Yes. I can't stay too long. I visit it, but I don't camp out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Amen.

Michael O'Brien: All right, last question, y'all. This is everybody. "What one thing do you do, besides prayer, to keep you on fire for God?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Start with Ann. Annie V. and then Tammy T. and then Michael O. and then J-Ro.

Tammy Trent: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: I just wanted to act as cool as Tammy. I can't rap. But there you go.

Tammy Trent: (Makes rapping sounds.)

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Ann, what do you do?

Ann Voskamp: How do you follow that up? Like, I got nothing left to say. I don't rap!

I think for me to keep me on fire for the -- actually, reading God's Word and then actually taking Scripture and writing it back to myself, journaling that back to me and personalizing that. So for me, reading His Word while I write -- it always involves a pen with me. Like, I have to read the Word and then write the Word back to me. And I think ultimately when you open up the Word, that's conversation. I'm praying, but he's also speaking to me through his Word. So I think you really have to -- I think when you're thinking about the Lord, it is not about a quiet time. Are you having communion in conversation? And then that communion conversation continues on into the day. So he's not a box that you check off; he's a presence you enter into and keep company with.

Tammy Trent: Ooh, I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Follow that.

Tammy Trent: Yes. No, I love it. And I totally can identify with that. And, you know, it's always been a part of my life, but maybe with the absence of Trent too, like, it's just me and it's just Jesus.

Ann Voskamp: That communion.

Tammy Trent: Totally. Like, he's -- I'm quick -- I talk to him throughout the day all the time. I'm in the house alone. "God, thank you for that." Or Jesus -- I'm like, "Ooh, Lord." I mean, there's just always something there.

Ann Voskamp: I think, though, oftentimes we can think about the cross is just for salvation, atonement, as opposed to seeing that the cross was about communion so that we have at onement with him all of the time --

Tammy Trent: A hundred percent.

Ann Voskamp: -- which is what you're totally living.

Tammy Trent: I have it and I'm fully aware of the presence of God in my life.

Ann Voskamp: Yes, yes.

Tammy Trent: I learned it as a young girl. I'm grateful for it. Because when I stood on the edge of the water, when my whole world changed, that was one of the greatest gifts God gave me, was his presence. I knew and I felt the presence of God, and what it did for me was confirmed that you will be okay. I am here. I am. I am everything. I'm here. It settled everything. And so that is the greatest gift I have, Jenn, that keeps me on fire. I think it's just knowing that I know that I know that I'm in relationship, in community with Jesus and his presence follows me all the days of my life. In the fun -- I know he laughs at me all the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, he does.

Tammy Trent: I know he rolls his eyes and thinks, Not again, Tammy. But we have a great relationship. I love him so much and I couldn't imagine living life without him.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. Okay, Michael O.?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. I think for me, it changes throughout the days. But lately, over the last probably couple years, I -- it's out of the movie Chariots of Fire, where he says, "I feel God's pleasure when I run." I feel God's pleasure when I'm leading God's people in worship. Like, I love to hear the voices singing back to the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's beautiful.

Michael O'Brien: And it just brings a lot of joy and a lot of -- I was telling Tammy last night, just a lot of weight too. I just feel a weight. But it's a good weight.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's the weight of glory.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Love that all these answers you've heard so far, it all -- the axis is relationship. So I guess for me, one of the things that I have learned is a present -- how do I put it? A present observation. So I love Scripture, I love studying, and I love learning. And that will light my fire. But I have to be careful that the study itself isn't what's lighting my fire.

Ann Voskamp: Yes. That's good, Jenn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I love learning so much. But I have recognized -- okay, I'll put it this way, Practicing the Presence of the Lord, Brother Lawrence. I read that book this year and that helped renew my intentionality of every little thing I do. And then this observation, just observing every single thing as a gift from God and his presence with me. So I don't have anything really profound to say compared to what those two did, but it's kind of just the -- yeah, that same...

Ann Voskamp: The awareness of his presence.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, people. We ran out of time, but the beans are officially spilled. Thank these folks. Good job, y'all. That was so good.

KC Wright: These are my favorite, favorite, favorite, most meaningful moments at Fresh Grounded Faith when you guys spill the beans. What a fantastic conversation we just heard. I feel like I was right there. So I'm so thankful someone's recording these so we can listen to them on The 4:13. And if you felt that way too, like you were right there, you can actually be there too, because on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/324, you will find a calendar of the Fresh Grounded Faith tour so you can be a part of one near you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We want you.

KC Wright: And we'll also have a transcript of this entire incredible deep conversation on the Show Notes, plus we'll connect you to our friends.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm going to also include links to the Memorize What Matters Podcast that I was on and Brother Lawrence, the book about Brother Lawrence. There are so many good resources for the family of God.

So remember, whatever you face and however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

KC Wright: Facts, 100%. You can do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can do it.

KC Wright: Go, you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Go.

KC Wright: We are rooting you on today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Cheering you on.

KC Wright: Hey, hopefully we'll see you soon at a Fresh Grounded Faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: At a Fresh Grounded Faith. Ooh, that was good. We sounded like we rehearsed that.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Margaret Feinberg at Fresh Grounded Faith Fargo, ND [Episode 310]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name. So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's time for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on the 413.

Pack your bag, because today we are heading to Fargo, North Dakota, for a Fresh Grounded Faith. I'm sitting at the Bistro table with author and speaker Margaret Feinberg and singer-songwriter Michael O'Brien, and we are spilling the beans. We talked about how to start a habit of meeting with God. And Margaret happens to be quite the foodie, so she tells us what is on her favorite menu. And we also dealt with some very hard subjects of suicide, anger toward God, and the difference between your giftings and your callings. It was very gentle and very wise. You're going to really love that.

We also got really honest about how to forgive when you just don't want to. But even in all the hard stuff, I'm telling in you right now, this was one of the funniest conversations I have had in a long time. So get ready to think, to laugh, and to grow. We're going to Spill the Beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because -- here's truth -- you can, we can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome to your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, welcome. That was K.C. Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And it's just two friends and one topic and zero stress here in the podcast closet. So I hope that's what you're experiencing, zero stress. If not, just kind of put it on hold, press pause on your stress, and enjoy this podcast for about 30 minutes, because we are going to have such a fun, life-giving conversation with some other friends of yours, Michael O'Brien and Margaret Feinberg, who you have met before. This was, as we said earlier, from a Fresh Grounded Faith conference. And so if you've never been to one, there is one coming near you hopefully in the fall. So go to freshgroundedfaith.com to see where we're going to be. Of course, we'll also have a link on the Show Notes.

But I have got to tell you, we have had something phenomenal happen in our town this year.

K.C. Wright: Breaking news.

Jennifer Rothschild: Breaking news.

K.C. Wright: Breaking news.

Jennifer Rothschild: We got a --

K.C. Wright: Drum roll, please.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Buc-ee's. Have you got a Buc-ee's in your town?

K.C. Wright: Have you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because it is like -- it's not a store, it's an experience.

K.C. Wright: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not a retail establishment, it's like a moment in time.

K.C. Wright: Let me tell you, it opened up and I said, "Ellie, get in the Jeep, we're going." "Why are you dragging me to a gas station?" "Ellie, just come on. Let's go. Let's go." "Why are you bringing me to a gas station?" I'm like, "It's more than a gas station, Ellie." And then one hour later, one hour later we're sitting in my Jeep, a brisket sandwich in the left paw and a banana pudding in the right paw --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

K.C. Wright: -- with a big 'ol whatever drink between your legs, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's awesome.

K.C. Wright: And you're just getting fat and happy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, that's what Buc-ee's is for. And if you've never been, like, it is giant. It's like the IKEA of, like, convenience stores. But they've got a wall of jerky.

K.C. Wright: They do.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what else?

K.C. Wright: A bakery.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

K.C. Wright: They have the bakery, they have the jerky wall, they have the fudge. And then they have in the middle where they're making the fresh brisket and their turkey sandwiches. But the pudding and all that. And then, of course, hey, if you want Christian apparel, there's a little --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's true.

K.C. Wright: They should sponsor this podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, they should.

K.C. Wright: Like they need us to promote them, because we --

Jennifer Rothschild: We need them.

K.C. Wright: We hardly got in and out -- actually, Ellie walked around saying, "I'm overwhelmed. I'm actually overwhelmed."

Jennifer Rothschild: I'll bet.

K.C. Wright: It's a blessing from the Lord. It gave 200 people jobs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's brilliant. I love it.

K.C. Wright: And their restrooms are wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: They are known -- okay, you out there traveling, if you're listen to the podcast right now while you're traveling, just know those are your cleanest, best restrooms, Buc-ee's. Shout out to Buc-ee's. Okay. And we who travel a lot care about this.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And even we who don't, who just want something to do, care about this. So if you don't have a Buc-ee's in your town, when you are near one you must go. And just -- you know, take a deep breath before you walk in. It can be overwhelming, but it is worth the overwhelm. So in Fargo -- I don't think we had one in Fargo.

But I will say this. This conversation that we had was really a fun one, K.C. But I want to warn everybody. Okay? So when this conversation starts, about two-thirds into the conversation we're about to wind down, you're going to hear this crash. That was me hitting my mic. Okay. So just so you know, that's what that was. It's not you. Your roof is not caving in.

Okay. Anyway, we're also going to have links to all of the things you're going to want to know about on the Show Notes. So anyway -- K.C., do we need to introduce them?

K.C. Wright: Not really. But, yes, like you said, we'll have the links to Margaret Feinberg and Michael O'Brien, all because we love them and we want you to dive into all things Margaret and Michael.

So pull up your chair to the Bistro. Let's Spill the Beans with Margaret, Michael, and Jennifer. Here we go.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, this is to everybody. "I struggle with getting up early in the morning. How do you make a habit of getting up and rising early in the morning to be with God?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'll just go first here with one thought. I would ask you a question. Why do you need to get up early and be with God? I'm just not sure where that...

Now, listen, there's nothing wrong with that. And if that's the way your body is wired and your schedule permits, then go for it. But there's no real formula. Being with God can be if you wake up at 9:00 AM, you know, or it can be maybe -- I like to spend just a few minutes of not intense thought in the morning. I just listen to my Dwell Bible app. I listen to Scripture. That's all I do while I drink my coffee. Try not to really think. I just try to get in his presence. But then later in the day, when I have more brainpower and I'm more into it, then I will maybe spend time with more study or devotional or spend time with the Lord like that. So I guess what I'm saying is I think we need to keep the main thing the main thing. The main thing is time with God, not what time we choose to be with God.

Even though -- you know, in Scripture it talked about rising early. And if that's the only time you can be with the Lord, then, yeah, you can get up early, and Margaret's going to tell you how you can do that. You're welcome.

Margaret Feinberg: I'm a night owl. I love staying up late. And so for those of you who are more alert at night, like, God does a pretty good job on the night watch.

Michael O'Brien: My wife used to -- with our kids, she would say, "Okay, Lord, I'm going to get up at 5:30 to be with you," because she usually would get up at 6:00. And so she would get up at 5:30, and then the kids would immediately wake up at 5:30 as well. So I do think it's a scheduling thing for us now that we're empty nesters. She's just an early riser, I'm an early riser, and that's when we get to be with the Lord. So she separately, me separately, then we come together.

But, yeah, I think there are just different patterns for different people, and you can make it work. You make time for the things that you love.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is a good word.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good -- well, and I will say this, one last thing about this. One thing that's helped me is sometimes we wait to feel a certain way before we do a certain thing, and I think there is an attribute of discipline that then becomes delight. So don't wait to feel delight, like, "Oh, I can't wait to be with the Lord," and then expect the discipline to follow. We have to trust the Lord with faithfulness at whatever time of the day and just do the discipline, and you'd be surprised then how the delight, the desire will all show up.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, Margaret. You said you were a foodie.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is.

Michael O'Brien: What's your favorite meal and what's your favorite dessert?

Margaret Feinberg: So our go-to at home is Mexican.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Margaret Feinberg: You can put anything in a tortilla or on a bed of lettuce --

Michael O'Brien: They have Mexican food in Utah?

Margaret Feinberg: They even have roads.

Michael O'Brien: I just didn't think they did, like Mexican restaurants. Okay.

Margaret Feinberg: Yeah. And favorite dessert would probably be a flourless chocolate torte.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too. Along with Creme Brulee.

Margaret Feinberg: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Okay, I got to know yours, Michael.

Michael O'Brien: I love the Napoleon dessert. It's like a --

Margaret Feinberg: What is that?

Michael O'Brien: I don't know. It's good. It's good. It's got chocolate, white chocolate, dark chocolate, cream-filled pastry kind of a thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. It's very good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nice.

Michael O'Brien: Okay. "God is good. How do I get Michael to come to my" -- car?

Jennifer Rothschild: Keep reading.

Michael O'Brien: Can you help me with that?

Margaret Feinberg: "To show me how to use the music stick."

Michael O'Brien: "Michael to come to my" -- what is that word?

Margaret Feinberg: Car.

Michael O'Brien: -- "car to show" --

Margaret Feinberg: He wants you to go to your car to show --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, she wants to buy your music stick.

Michael O'Brien: I thought you were making that up. Oh, the music...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Michael O'Brien: I'm 59 and I still don't understand the question. What is --

Jennifer Rothschild: So, Michael -- you don't want him helping you. Okay? Can I just say? He can't even understand the question.

Michael O'Brien: Oh, the thumb drive. The thumb drive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. The music stick, the thumb --

Michael O'Brien: What about it?

Jennifer Rothschild: They want you to come to their car and show them how to use it, Michael.

Michael O'Brien: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, don't ask him. Find someone under 40. Don't ask the old guy.

Michael O'Brien: Look for that little USB thing and just stick it right in there. That's all you do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, Michael. You're 50.

Michael O'Brien: Wow. I got to let this calm down because this is a serious question that's coming.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right. Calm down, people. We're getting serious.

Okay, Michael, what is it?

Michael O'Brien: Okay. Are -- yeah, it is serious.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is really serious. Okay.

Michael O'Brien: Yes, it is. It's hard to come after that, so...

"Are suicidal thoughts the devil? So the devil lives in me. How to start to truly live instead of walking around dead to self and dead to others, unable to truly love?"

Jennifer Rothschild: You're right, that is very serious. That's really serious, because whoever wrote it, you matter so much and you're such a valuable, precious person. There's a couple of things there that I think we want to talk about a little bit. But know that none of us up here are professionals and we in no way could give advice not knowing your personal situation completely.

But there's a couple of things that I would think about as your sister in Christ. The nature of that question sounds like you would benefit from talking to a professional, because that sounds like depression. And suicide shouts loudly when someone is depressed. And when you're saying you're dead to others and dead and you just feel -- you got no life, that's depression. And sometimes depression -- yes, it's an emotional manifestation, but often it's because of a physical underlying condition. So you really need to value yourself enough to see a doctor. And there are people who love you, and you need to value them enough, even if you don't value yourself enough to go see a doctor.

Are suicidal thoughts of the devil? John 10:10, Jesus said, "I came to give life." Any thoughts of death are thoughts that do not come from Jesus. And so I think what Margaret just shared is such a beautiful discipline. It's not the solution only, but it is a beautiful discipline to begin to rewire your brain toward truth. You have been wired toward lies. But our deepest hope is that you would tell somebody and that would also seek professional help.

Margaret Feinberg: I think there are physical things. When our chemistry in our body is off, it can cause all kinds of things that aren't necessarily spiritual at all. Like, it's just -- you know, if all the serotonin is not rushing to your brain, that's definitely worth talking to a professional and getting medical help. Do you want your community to pray with you and pray for -- absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Margaret Feinberg: And to be vulnerable and to share that. And what you may discover is you're not the only one who's feeling a little dead or numb inside. And to know that you're not alone in that. You are not alone.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, that's just heartbreaking for me to hear that.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is hard, isn't it?

Michael O'Brien: My wife was very similar. She would be classified as bipolar, which means -- but she's more on the depressive side. And she went to counseling, which I think was very helpful. I think biblical counseling is number one because -- and drugs. She did try some different things to try to level her out. She would say she tried to just not eat and try to starve herself to death because she was so depressed. And she was angry and she was bitter because of some things in our marriage.

So all that to say, we all have different journeys that we're on. But just to hear this just makes me think -- you know, we have a tendency, when we're in depression, to run away from people. And this is the time when you need to run for help and get help. And it doesn't make you any less of a person. It just actually is Spirit led. So may this be that mark in your life that changes from this day forward --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Michael O'Brien: -- in the name of Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: In the name of Jesus, we agree.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, Jennifer, this is for you. How do you remain positive and not angry to God for your eyesight loss?

Jennifer Rothschild: This is an interesting question to me because I've been asked it in one form or another over the years. So let me clarify this. I have a sparky personality and I do get angry. Injustice just drives me crazy. And then I can also get angry just because I can get impatient and whatever. I got sin. You know what I'm saying? So I am capable of anger is what I'm trying to say to you.

It is interesting to me, though, that I have not ever applied that to God. And it's not because I'm a superhero Christian-wise. I've tried to research in my own heart why that would be, because I do have a tendency toward being sparky, and I think my understanding is this. When I lost my sight at 15, y'all, I really did love Jesus. Like, I would read the Word every night. It was so real to me. I was so transformed. It was such a genuine relationship that when I lost my sight, I did not have a thought of, God, how could you do this to me? Instead it was more of a, Okay, I already love you, I already trust you. This is the thing. Okay, all right. I guess I loved him too much to be angry at him.

And over the years I have recognized that is still true. I really do. And I trust his sovereignty. I trust the heart of God more than I trust my own heart. And if he really is a God full of compassion, then there's times I think this has to have been a sacrifice on his part toward me to allow this. Because it has to hurt him on some level, too, you know, that he would allow this to happen. But it has to be for a greater good.

And then let me just get super practical. The older I've gotten and the more people I've watched who might be bitter or angry -- and by the way, if that's you, no judgment. We're all in process. Okay? But I do think it's counterproductive. It's just not pragmatic to live with bitterness and anger toward God. Because for me, I need him too much. So if I get mad at him, then I isolate myself from the only source of peace I've got. And I just can't do that to myself, nor do I -- for me personally, he's worthy of my respect. And to me, a simmering anger toward him is not respectful, and I can't do that to him. So that's where I'm at with it. So if you're in process, be patient with the process. But keeping your eyes on the character of God might help transition you and help you work through that process.

Michael O'Brien: I've always said that Jennifer in a lot of ways sees more clearly than most sighted people that I know. It really is amazing.

So this is to me. It says, "How do you find the love of Jesus? Can you share your story?" I don't have time to really share the story. I kind of breezed on it. But let me just say this. I don't even remember -- like, everybody has, like, a day, like this day. All I can tell you is I was very self-driven -- and, you know, we talked about my wife and her depression. A lot of it had to do with that I was not loving her as Christ loved the church. I was very driven in my job thinking, hey, you know, I got to make a living so I could take care of these kids. And Ephesians 5 has really rocked my world over the last couple of years.

But I would say in probably the early 2000s -- this is after I'd been in ministry. I mean, you can go through the motions. I know I did. There was a turn, though. There was a turn in my life when I almost lost my marriage, when I really believe that's when I fell in love with Jesus. It's like I was always trying to please so many other people. You know, if I do this, you'll like me. If I do this -- and I came to the point where I know now when I sin, I sin against God and God alone. It's Psalm 51. And I tell you, it has changed the trajectory of my life, just the love for His Word. And so I would say somewhere in there I think God really got ahold of my heart. So that's the best I can say.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, share with them -- you've shared this before and I love it -- about in that transition, especially with Heidi, the differentiation between giftings and callings.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, giftings and callings. So my gifting's always been music, you know, since I was maybe 13 -- 12, 13 years old. But I used to think that my calling was my job, which is music. But now I realize that my calling is to love my wife like Christ loved the church, raise my kids up in Christ, my grandkids up in Christ. And I never let my gifting take precedence now over my true calling.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm glad you shared that. Thank you.

Michael O'Brien: Thanks. Yeah.

All right, Margaret. Since writing "Fight Back With Joy," what new items have you added to your dream list?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. First of all, what is a dream list?

Margaret Feinberg: I don't know. I don't know who asked this. I'm going to just go for it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Go for it.

Michael O'Brien: You should.

Margaret Feinberg: Okay. So things that I still want to do, because I'm still here and I'm super grateful. So I've really gotten into floral arranging over the last few years, and I'm totally like -- I buy little Kroger grocery store flowers and just have fun watching videos and stay up way too late doing that. I also bought dental tools, to clean my dog's teeth, on Amazon.com for $6.00, because getting them cleaned is like $500, and that's ridiculous.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's true.

Margaret Feinberg: I know, right? So we did that.

And then I really -- I think my dream list, besides being a doggy dentist and a florist, is -- I really want to just be embedded in my community. Like, it is the greatest joy. You know, we recently got asked to be godparents. You know, that's the stuff that I want my life full of, that we have loved people so well and been so known and -- not known, but knowing and known, you know. Like, that those relationships are so deep that there's that kind of fruit. I like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh, those are great dreams.

Michael O'Brien: That's good. I've never even heard of that doggy thing. That's...

Jennifer Rothschild: I just don't want your aspirations to increase and you decide you need to do dental work on all your community and your friends.

Michael O'Brien: Hey, come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: By the way, that little dog of yours -- you know, he travels with Margaret, Zoom.

Michael O'Brien: He's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: He is adorable. And he has the best teeth really.

Margaret Feinberg: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: I wanted to mention that.

Margaret Feinberg: I appreciate that. That means a lot. That means a lot.

Michael O'Brien: He does have a beautiful smile.

Okay. So, "Jennifer, when you wrote 'Lessons I Learned In the Dark,' I was in awe of your ability to memorize and speak. Now that I am older, I really want to know your secret to remembering Bible verses and information for speaking engagements. Is there a magic cream for that too?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I wish there were a magic cream. I would bathe in it. Oh, my people.

You know, memorizing became a necessity to me early on in blindness. And one of the things I first did -- and I still do this today. And I forget to mention it to people because it's so native to me. But I am always -- as soon as I'm starting to hear something or as soon as someone is talking, I literally am 100% zoned in trying to memorize what they're saying. So I am -- it's almost like in my mind I'm watching myself type what they're saying. Like, I am trying to memorize -- so in school even, whenever the teacher was talking, I literally was listening to memorize. So that's one thing, which is a very different way to listen. Sometimes we listen to analyze, sometimes we listen just -- or sometimes we're not even listening. So that's one thing.

But secondly then on a more granular level, I do listen constantly to Scripture. I will listen to it over and over. And it is harder as we get older, let's be honest. But what you've heard Michael do quoting vast passages of Scripture -- he's old, y'all, so it can still happen. You're welcome.

Anyway, my point is this. So it takes discipline, though. It takes discipline and it takes repetition. I have little memory things that I do to try to myself. I will use some rhythm or cadence with it. I'll memorize between punctuations. I make everything very visual in my mind. I will write it out in cursive or bubble letters or -- for memorizing a message, I have a ladder that I put all my points on. A ladder. And I put my message points on that ladder and then I literally will, like, put little pictures embedded in my mind to remember, and I will be climbing the ladder in my mind as I'm sharing.

So there's lots of techniques. But the point is, we think, well, I'm older, I can't remember things or it's not natural to me. It's not natural to anybody. It is a discipline that we develop, and then it becomes a habit to us. And so I -- try it. Just start small and try it.

But how do you -- because you're memorizing chapters now. How do you do it? What do you do to memorize?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, it's repetition.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

Michael O'Brien: Repetition, hours and hours.

Jennifer Rothschild: Is it listening or seeing or both?

Michael O'Brien: Both.

Jennifer Rothschild: Both.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. I'll listen when I'm in the car. I can't be reading while I'm trying to drive, but I'll listen to it. And the cadence is always different, so it's a little more challenging. So right now I'm on Romans, and that's difficult. It's very difficult. There's some girl named Mary Rick or something like that. She's memorized the New Testament.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Michael O'Brien: And now she's working on the Old Testament. And her husband had memorized the whole Bible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Michael O'Brien: Took him 40-something years. I don't know. I mean, that's --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, if we're ever on a deserted island, I want them with us.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, absolutely.

Okay, this is to everybody. "What can one do when it is not possible to forgive someone?"

Margaret Feinberg: I think that for me -- you know, we've been bezzled, we've seen -- there's been some rough rough in our lives. And Jesus says to forgive seven times seven or, based on your translation, seven times 70. And that's not a literal number. I think what he was saying was sometimes you have to forgive as many times as it takes. So, you know, when we were embezzled, I think probably forgiveness started to settle in my heart probably around -- maybe 397, 412. But it is, it's kind of like a discipline.

And the other thing to remember -- and I know a lot of Christian stories ends with happy bows of everybody being happy. But there's a spectrum of forgiveness.

Jennifer Rothschild: There is.

Margaret Feinberg: So one is you have done something horrific to me, and now we're going to live across the street, and my children are going to marry your children, and we're going to be besties forever. Okay, so that is one spectrum.

But the other is a place where maybe it was so bad and the atrocity was so terrible that the freedom is that you forgive in your heart and you may not communicate with that person. And that's okay too, based on -- or they may be passed away and it may not even be possible. So it is a spectrum. But the great thing is when you see that person and it's no longer, like, a little hook inside of you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's hard. Because that word "can," I can't forgive them. And I think, you know -- we had a situation where someone treated us unjustly, and I remember feeling like I couldn't forgive. And one of the things the Lord did for me was, you know, this remembrance that it is -- that's an act of grace, too, that through Christ I can forgive. In my own strength and desire, no way, Jose, but -- (crash sound). Sorry, Lord.

Michael O'Brien: Be careful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I got to be careful.

But through Christ we can. And you're right, you can forgive and still have boundaries. Stormie Omartian said -- and I've never forgotten -- forgiveness does not make that other person right. Forgiveness makes you free.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, I like that one from Stormie.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: I think the other thing I would say is at least -- and this would be, like, really extreme cases where it's almost like they're not even asking for forgiveness, they're just -- and then it's just like a leaving them to the Lord. Like, Lord, you know my heart, what's in my heart. They're not even repentive. You do what you need to do in their life and -- so, yeah.

Okay. What's your favorite Bible verse?

Jennifer Rothschild: Margaret, you want to go first?

Margaret Feinberg: Sure. I think the one that comes to mind -- you might have read it -- is, "Jesus wept."

Jennifer Rothschild: And she's not kidding.

Margaret Feinberg: No.

Michael O'Brien: That's wonderful.

Margaret Feinberg: Because in some ways that's become -- warmed my heart just to know that Jesus is in it with us. He feels all the feels, he knows all the things, and he doesn't judge our emotions, he doesn't -- he's felt them all and so he's in it with us.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that's good, because sometimes we joke around like that's the only verse I memorized, you know. But what a depth it is that Christ allows human sorrow to enter into him and he responds with human sorrow. It's very comforting. It's beautiful.

Michael O'Brien: Jennifer?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mine? 2 Corinthians 4:16-18. Always has been, always will be. "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, inwardly daily we are being renewed. And our light and temporary troubles are working within us a far greater weight of glory, for that which is seen is temporary, and that which is unseen is eternal." Love it.

Michael O'Brien: That's good. I'll just keep mine small. It's Philippians 4:13. And I love the context around it too, because I think a lot of times we just go, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. And then we go -- you know, pull up my bootstraps, I'm going to this.

And the context is -- it has everything to do with having much or having little. He was basically saying I'm content if I don't have a lot and I'm content if I have more than others. But that was very helpful to me because I used to misquote that all the time when I first started in ministry.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a Hobby Lobby verse. That's what I call it.

Michael O'Brien: A Hobby Lobby verse?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's like a Christian mug verse.

Michael O'Brien: Oh, I see what you're saying.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's on a print somewhere. And so we can, therefore, take it out of context easily. But you're right, it's about knowing that it is Christ in us who gives us the strength to respond correctly.

Michael O'Brien: That's right. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: Okay. Margaret, what's your most embarrassing moment?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Margaret Feinberg: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Margaret, I love you're going first.

Margaret Feinberg: Thank you. Well, I'm a little spacy, if you guys haven't caught on, so I actually needed Phil to give me my phone because I couldn't remember because I have so many. And so I had to text my husband, and so now he told me the one.

And I went to a large event, and it was, like, at a campground center in Oklahoma. And I'm just spacy and so I forgot to pack pants.

Jennifer Rothschild: Pants?

Margaret Feinberg: Pants. They're kind of important. I didn't have any dresses at that time, and so --

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, that's --

Margaret Feinberg: Yeah. So it was like workout pants or pajama pants. And so the lady who's the organizer thought she was being helpful. And I was like, you know, "I need to borrow some pants." And so I said, "But please be discreet." And instead, she goes on the radio to everyone and says, "Does anyone have a pair of pants that Margaret Feinberg, our speaker, could wear?" Size bleep, bleep, bleep. I'm like, "What are you doing?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's funny. Yeah, that is embarrassing. I don't know what's worse, though, forgetting the pants or having everyone know what size you wore when you forgot your pants.

Michael O'Brien: Oddly enough, mine is dealing with pants too. Okay. So it was the Rusty Bucket. It was in South Carolina. It's a small little venue. And I went to go do a concert there for this guy as a favor. And he had a shirt that he wanted me to wear. And so at the time -- it's in the middle of nowhere pretty much, a little town, nobody's around. So the soundman, the guy that brought me in, and myself. And I just put the shirt -- you know, I took my other shirt off, put that on. But I'm married, and I realize I was not matching, my pants were not matching.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's not good.

Michael O'Brien: So my car, my little van, was in this little aisle, like, back in the -- nobody was around. No one. And so I had it all planned out, pants right there in this little hallway kind of thing. And I'm looking around just to make sure. I pull my pants down, I pull my other pants, I pull up, and I look to my right again, and right in that moment a grandmother, a mother, and her daughter, three generations, came right up on me. And, you know, they did the whole thing like move -- they began to walk backwards. I was so humiliated. And I had to have a lunch with them. And the 16-year-old girl never looked me in the eye the whole time. It was horrible.

All right, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right. So we've got two pants stories. I was wearing shorts in my story. And I've shared this so many times because, honestly, nothing has been worse and more embarrassing.

But I was in the eighth grade and I had just started shaving my legs. We lived in Miami at the time. We were driving to North Carolina. And I decided not to shave for those three days, so I had a lot of thick black hair. I got really thick hair, y'all. And so it was, like, coarse. It was like a weapon. Okay?

And so we get to this family camp where we're going to be in North Carolina, and I'm wearing my little short shorts from the '80s, you know, and -- or '70s, whenever it was. And so we get up the mountain and -- because we're late. And so me and my brothers join these little Bible study groups. And so they're trying to let us all get to know each other and we're going to do this little recreation game together, and it's called the People Passer. So I met with my little group of 40 people. And so we were going to pick the person in the group who weighed the least, which at the time happened to be me. And so that meant all the other students stood face to face and fingertip to fingertip, hands facing heavenward. And then they laid me on top of those hands and then they said, "Go," and they had to pass me as fast as possible. That meant every hand touched my legs. "Oh, what's wrong with your legs?" "Why don't you shave your legs?" "Ooh, you need to shave your legs." "Ouch, that hurts." And on and on and on and on. And I got to spend the entire week with them and my hairy legs.

And I've told you, I -- it was the most embarrassing moment of my life. I was 13 years old. I've barely recovered. I'm still so traumatized, I shave my legs every day whether I have hair or not. I don't even know if hair grows. I have no idea, because I shave every day.

Anyway, now the beans are spilled. Thanks, you guys.

K.C. Wright: Jenn, you were right, that was hilarious when Michael couldn't figure out what the question about the music stick meant.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness. And Margaret becoming a doggie dentist cracked me up. Cracked me up. Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. But at the same time, I also really loved the whole Scripture memory thing, like how Michael is memorizing chapters. Y'all, that is so inspiring.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I love the honest words about dealing with the hard stuff. I mean, it was just rich.

K.C. Wright: Yes. And I want to send Margaret some pants after this.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Okay, that was hilarious.

K.C. Wright: All right, our friends. You know we will have all sorts of extras, plus a transcript of this conversation at the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/310. I'm telling you, these Spill the Beans at the Fresh Grounded Faith conferences are just the best. This one is done. Put a fork in it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Put a fork in it.

K.C. Wright: Until next week, remember this promise. Whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: You know what? I just love to laugh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too, K.C.

K.C. Wright: The joy of the Lord is your strength. When are we going to really believe that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I think Ann Voskamp said, "If you ain't got no joy, you ain't got no strength."

K.C. Wright: It's so true. And I love loud laughers.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm a loud laugher. I'm an obnoxious -- somebody told me I laugh like Dolly Parton.

K.C. Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: How about that?

K.C. Wright: Ooh, that's a compliment.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think I need to go have some Beaver Nuggets from Buc-ee's to celebrate.

K.C. Wright: Let's go. And some Beaver Chips.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Karen Kingsbury and Annie F. Downs at Fresh Grounded Faith Springfield, MO [Episode 306]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer Rothschild. You know I love my audiobooks from Audible. That's how I'm able to read so many books in a year. If you've never tried it, you can get a 30-day free trial with no obligation. Plus, you'll get a free audiobook of your choice that you can keep. So go to 413podcast.com/Audible to get started. And now, the podcast.

Have you ever been with friends who just make you smile, make you laugh, make you grateful, and just plain make you a better person? Well, I was in Springfield, Missouri, at a Fresh Grounded Faith with two friends of mine that do all that for me. I got to Spill the Beans with best-selling author Karen Kingsbury and podcaster extraordinaire Annie F Downs. We talked about dating apps, we talked about how to help someone who is struggling. We also talked about how to love the season you're in.

Karen Kingsbury explained -- and this was really fun, you guys -- how attached and emotional she gets with her characters, especially when one of them dies. And by the way, she writes that scene and, you know, makes them die. Anyway, she also talked about who her favorite authors are. You're going to love her answers.

Annie was her brilliant, delightful self, and she helped us dig into James Chapter 4 to understand what it means to have fun in this world with good boundaries. And then we ended with the funniest thing that has ever happened to us on the road. And it was absolutely hilarious, it was authentic. You're going to love it.

So K.C., let's get it going.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live this "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Glad you're back. Happy summer. Hope things are going well and you're staying cool. We're cool here in the podcast closet. It's two friends, one topic, and zero stress. And there's a lot less stress this morning because my friend K.C. brought me something.

K.C. Wright: (Laughing.)

Jennifer Rothschild: He brought me chocolate-covered coffee beans.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And where'd you say they were from?

K.C. Wright: Okay. So right next to my house now, they placed a little coffee truck called Sip & Savor. Sip & Savor.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which when he told me that, I said, "What'd you say? Sin and Savor?" Sin and Savor? No, people. Wrong podcast. Anyway, Sip & Savor.

But I've already had two of these coffee beans. And I made myself stop because I thought I would drive you guys crazy if I had more, because I would have too much of a buzz.

K.C. Wright: Well, when they hand you the coffee cup out the window, they place the little coffee bean on top -- it looks like a little bird's egg -- and that's how they present it to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

K.C. Wright: And so you pop a little chocolate coffee bean and then you sip and you savor. Now, I wanted to bring you a coffee, but you are a coffee diva, somewhat like me.

Jennifer Rothschild: I am. Sorry. I am, yes.

K.C. Wright: But I did want to bring you one. I didn't want you making your own this morning. But I can never remember what your favorite coffee is.

Jennifer Rothschild: I understand that. Well, and it changes. It changes as often as I change my earrings and my purse. But listen, these coffee beans -- if you had brought me coffee also, like, people would think, What happened? Did I change my app? She's talking at 1.5 speed.

All right, my people. This is going to be such a good conversation because -- K.C., you were there at this Fresh Grounded Faith with Karen and Annie.

K.C. Wright: I was. So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: So we need to get this conversation going.

K.C. Wright: Yes. Well, you know these brilliant women, so really there's no need for me to introduce them officially. We will have links to their socials and, of course, their books on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/306.

All right. Are you ready for this? I had a front row seat --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you did.

K.C. Wright: -- to this one. Oh, man, it's so good, I'm telling you. Here's Karen Kingsbury, Annie F. Downs, and, of course, our Jennifer. Pull up a chair, listen in.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I get to travel around the country and speak and present, and I am often ministered to. But I don't know if I have been more ministered to than I was right now through Annie and Karen and what y'all have shared. I marvel at the gift of God in both of you, and I thank you. And what is a deep ministry to me also is I don't just get to marvel at the gift of God in them and their skill, but I get to see them backstage and see that they genuinely love the Lord, the Word, and people. No divas. It's just such a gift.

So I am honored to be with you, dear people. And these dear people have asked us so many good questions, so I handed them over to Annie, because I think she has a little experience in podcasting, to kind of facilitate this. We're going to Spill the Beans. So what you got, girl?

Annie F. Downs: Okay, so the first question is for you, Jennifer. I think this is really important. What practical piece of advice or encouragement would you give a family walking through the journey of vision loss with their child or their children?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I think it applies to really any family member who we love who's struggling with a loss, you know, I think it can apply. I think what I observed in my parents as I look back, they handled it through God's grace just so beautifully. They gave me a chance to fail and succeed on my own. I was not overprotected so that I could not fail. I was not hovered over so that I could not feel. And I think it's super important to know that you have a shelter and a safe place to fall, but to give that person who may be struggling a chance to succeed on their own. Don't succeed for them. Give them a chance to succeed on their own, which means you have to risk the heartache of knowing they might fail on their own. But it's such a good thing.

The other thing I would say to help someone you love who might be struggling with some kind of loss is trust God's grace for that person. So, like, I'm a mom, and I know when I've watched my kids struggle, like, Oh, I feel this weight of -- Oh, how are they going to make it? And I can feel despair for them that they don't feel for themselves. And so I would comfort you and challenge you to trust God's grace is sufficient for that person you love. So don't assign all your feelings of fear or uncertainty, because God's grace is sufficient and they may not be feeling those things. So just trust that God's going to take care of them and give them a chance to fully flourish within whatever God has allowed.

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah. That's beautiful.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, Karen. One of our friends wants to know, was it emotionally exhausting to write "Divine," one of your novels, and how did you cope -- I mean, I would imagine so many of your characters go through so many things that you'd have to walk away and be like, That was awful.

Karen Kingsbury: You know, "Divine" was such an interesting, unique story. It's about trafficking and abuse. And it's actually an allegory for Mary Magdalene and the things that Mary Magdalene had gone through.

At that very time, there were a lot of blasphemist stories being written that were kind of presuming Jesus in a relationship with Mary Magdalene or just different things. And they were "Da Vinci Code," things like that. And so the publisher had actually said, "Would you please write a book that will counter that?" And I said, "Like my regular books, right?" And they're like, "No, no. We want it to be more mystery, more intrigue." So I followed what they said, and then they read it and they're like, "No, we didn't mean that. We actually wanted you to write" --

Annie F. Downs: (Gasps.)

Karen Kingsbury: I know, right?

Annie F. Downs: Karen, after you'd finished the book?

Karen Kingsbury: Right. Yes. And that's the thing.

Annie F. Downs: It's like, sorry, I did it.

Karen Kingsbury: And guess what? That was -- okay. So I'm like, you know what? --

Annie F. Downs: Oh, my gosh.

Karen Kingsbury: -- I'm not going to do it.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Karen Kingsbury: I'm done. I wrote --

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I did it.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, I did it.

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah. And I wrote an outline, and they approved the outline too. So I was like, "I can't do it."

And my brother, my 39-year-old brother, that's when he passed, right that week. And I was like, "It's just too much, I can't do it." And I really could hear the Lord going, "You have to do it. If not -- you just have to do it."

Annie F. Downs: Wow.

Karen Kingsbury: And now I get to hear from people who say their situation of spousal abuse or trafficking, or whatever the case may be, is really -- because this woman had -- you know, she's now recovered from -- she's on the other side, as a Mary Magdalene would be with Jesus, and she helps other people in the book.

So anyway, it was emotionally exhaustive in a lot of ways, I think there's a lot of battle going on, but I hear from people and I always get to smile and go, "That was the Lord."

Jennifer Rothschild: It was.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Karen Kingsbury: That's perseverance.

Annie F. Downs: Do you ever do anything -- like, you know, you finish writing at 4:00 in the afternoon or something. Do you, like, "We got to go outside, we got to go" -- like, what's your thing at the end of the day to get out of the scene you just wrote? Or do you not?

Karen Kingsbury: Well, I mean, I do -- I write really fast. Do you write really fast?

Annie F. Downs: Mm-hmm.

Karen Kingsbury: I write really fast, and so I can -- it might be, like, you know, two weeks of eight-hour days or six-hour days and I can get a novel done. But sometimes it just takes on a thing and then I just can't stop writing and it could be four days or something, five days. So it's more like a crawl out of the cave. I'm like, I probably need a shower.

Annie F. Downs: That's good. You're like, I recover by cleaning myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. You're actually eating and bathing.

Annie F. Downs: Right, by eating and bathing, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's awesome.

Annie F. Downs: Okay. This friend has a great question asking about James 4:4. Just as a reminder, "Don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? And anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." And so they're saying, you know, how do you have fun and balance that Scripture? What are the boundaries of having fun and not becoming of the world?

And so for me personally -- I mean, I would love to hear y'all's thoughts on this, too. But for me, I think there is a lot of redemption that comes when faith people step into the world and find fun and choose to have fun and have a good time and -- like going to Broadway shows. I go to Broadway shows and not agree with everything that's going on there. But I can have a conversation with my friends I go with later and go, Hey, there's this part that stood out to me that I don't think that honors God. And so bringing your full self to the fun that you're having. And also having really high boundaries. There's a lot of things I don't watch or read or listen to because I don't want to look at a menu I'm not going to order from. Right? And so I'm careful about that too.

How do y'all handle that?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good, Annie. Well, I happen to believe that God is the author of beauty and truth. And so even in things that we would call quote/unquote secular, there are going to be glimmers of beauty and truth because God is the author of all beauty and truth. Okay? But like you said, those boundaries need to be there.

But there are some things that I do intentionally. Like, I love -- testosterone fiction I call it, Karen. And it's these mystery thrillers, you know. And, like, I get my guns and spies and I'm, like, conquering the world like -- I love it. I love it. There's not one thing overtly Christian about it. But I do use boundaries. If there's certain scenes in it, I won't listen to it.

But I do think there's a virtue in everything if we look for it. Now, if you have to look too hard, there ain't much virtue, you need to just move on. Right?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I also feel that way about -- like, some of those silly songs I sang last night from the '70s, secular music. There's beauty and joy in those. And so I think it's all about when your heart goes ding, ding and you realize, hmm, that might -- then don't try to convince your heart you need to keep doing something you shouldn't be doing. When your heart gives you the ding, ding, you just move to something else. That's kind of how I feel about it.

Annie F. Downs: That's good.

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah. I think -- I mean, Broadway shows are a great example. What's going on behind the curtain, I don't want to have anything to do with, you know, that. I don't even want to think about it. But I do know that I'll go to shows that don't cross the line. You know, we know the shows that would --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Karen Kingsbury: -- and we wouldn't go to those.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Karen Kingsbury: I think -- you know, one of the reasons that there's beauty in things that can appear to be secular, a secular painting, you know, a secular song, whatever, is because the Creator created that person, and the creativity they've been given is a gift from him, whether they acknowledge it or not.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly.

Annie F. Downs: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Karen Kingsbury: But you do have to draw that line. And we talk about this with our kids, and it's a verse that we use a lot. I try not to use it as a weapon. An example for us -- this is just us. This is not an indictment on anybody. But for us, because my husband's a teacher and a coach, and because I have this public life, and I think -- you know, early on I went on a cruise and you had to sign something that you wouldn't drink and you wouldn't gamble. And I thought -- I was like, okay, well, why would I ever drink or gamble then anyway? If that's how -- you know, if you go to Proverbs 31, first nine verses are talking about if you want to live a life that's like a king or queen or prince, then you don't do these certain things, and one of them is alcohol.

So on our honeymoon we just said, you know, this is one area we can have an incredible life and be very happy and have a good time without it. We just don't need it. What's the good that comes of it? And, you know, there's other -- another person might say, well, Jesus had wine at the wedding, and so that's fine for them. But for us, because we were going to have a lot of kids in our home and we wanted to model to teenagers, we don't drink. And that's going to be the same for my movies. That's super fun that I get to be in control of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Annie F. Downs: That is.

Karen Kingsbury: You'll not find ever alcohol, God's name in vain, cussing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Karen Kingsbury: I mean, there's just going to be no sexual jokes or -- just none of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't need that stuff. We don't need it.

Annie F. Downs: That's beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really good. I think what I'm hearing is the Holy Spirit guides us, and we need to follow his guide. We don't need to talk him in or out of anything, we just need to follow his counsel.

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Karen Kingsbury: Good word.

Annie F. Downs: That's good.

Okay. When you find yourself -- this is for any of us. When you find yourself in your darkest hours, do you ever feel like you've been abandoned? And if so, how do you hold fast to God?

Jennifer Rothschild: Have you ever felt abandoned by God?

Karen Kingsbury: You know, I mean, I think in my darkest hour -- okay, a recent one -- and this is going to seem small to all of you. Maybe it won't. But we had this beautiful Lab -- you know, a Lab that we love so much, Toby. Toby's in the movie. Toby's actually in the movie. A few weeks after his performance -- nothing to do with this performance, obviously, he was just a dog in the movie -- he had been growing this massive tumor that we didn't know about. And on Thanksgiving night last Thanksgiving, it burst and we only had a couple hours left with him. And I was so upset. I was so sad; it was so sudden.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

Karen Kingsbury: He was very healthy. It didn't seem like anything was going to be wrong with him for years. You know, dogs don't live long, but...

And here's what I did. I literally forced myself to be thankful, thankful, thankful. Thank you, Lord, for Toby. Thank you that we ever had him. Thank you that he got to be a part of a movie. Thank you that he was so close to my husband. Just thank -- and the thankfulness replaced the darkness.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Karen Kingsbury: I mean, there's been a study recently where the brain -- it's impossible to be both fearful and thankful at the same time. Or devastated and thankful. So I just think gratitude is my answer for that.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. What about you, Annie?

Annie F. Downs: I think sometimes because of my personality, I have to identify when I'm actually there, versus, like, just keep going. You know, like, go fast, go fast. And suddenly I'm like, man, I haven't enjoyed time with God in two weeks. What's going on? So sometimes I have to call it what it is in order to let God heal it and step into it with me, because otherwise I'll just blaze on through because I don't want to feel sad. And I don't want to feel like, well, God's not answering prayers. Who cares, I'm just going to keep going. And sometimes -- I mean, your first prayer that you taught us today, a prayer of, like, "God, I feel," I was like, oh, I'm going to cry. I'm going to cry. Because that's not my nature, is to stop and say, "God, I feel." My nature is to say, "God, let's go."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: And so that's for me. What about you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I think one of the things that helps me is -- sometimes we are so aware of -- of course, we are emotionally aware of the thing that's happening, the loss.

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I think for me, what God is training me to do is to pay attention to what I don't recognize. Like, what is he sparing me from? Or maybe I see what he's not doing right now, but what is he doing? Kind of like what you're saying about thankfulness. And it does help me to kind of shift that paradigm -- or create a larger paradigm, I should say, and shift my perspective. So I think it's interesting what we've all shared. It's less about the circumstance. It really is more about our perspective that we choose to take within it.

Annie F. Downs: I mean, that makes me switch to a different question, because this other question for you, Jennifer, is in a moment of panic or anxiety, what are some of the first or the easier steps you take to renew your mind? Like, when you're in the moment, what do you do to start helping your mind regulate?

Jennifer Rothschild: Let me address this in two ways. Because last night I mentioned having a panic attack, which is very different than feeling anxious. And it had never happened to me before. So when I told you last night that when Phil saw it happening, he intuitively just grabbed me and held me tight. Well, that is one of the things that is helpful. And I would share this to anyone, because sometimes it can happen around us and we don't know what to do. And sometimes we want to just pat people and say, "You're okay, you're okay." Well, no, we're not okay.

So this summer I got to go to Italy -- I haven't shared this publicly. And if you've ever been to Italy -- we went to the Vatican. There were 700,000 people inside the Vatican --

Annie F. Downs: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- there's 800,000 stairs -- I'm exaggerating obviously -- and It was 120 degrees. Okay.

Annie F. Downs: Sounds great.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Can't wait.

Karen Kingsbury: Sign me up.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was very difficult. So I'm walking with one of my friends, and she -- of course, her brain is exhausted because she's like, "There's so many staircases," and she's, like, telling me when to step, step down. And so at one point she said, "Step," and she didn't say up or down. And I went to step up, and it was down, and I thought I was falling. Well, panic attack happened just out of the blue. They didn't know how to help me. So I'm going to tell you how to help someone, and if you ever have a panic attack, how you can help people help you.

If there is an ability to hold someone tightly, if they'll allow that, that was very helpful. I had to tell my sweaty friends, "Y'all," finally, "I just need you to hug me." We smelled so bad. The other thing, Angela was trying to be very sweet. She goes, "Okay" -- she's trying to distract me. She goes, "Okay, let me tell you, there's this priest, he's standing right next to us, and he is praying for you," and I started weeping even more. It was very sweet. But what I really needed to do was distract myself. And so I said, "Tell me -- are there paintings around?" Now, if you can see what you need to help somebody, say, "What do you see right now?" "What do you smell right now?" "What do you hear right now?" Okay? Because it will help a person's brain immediately gravitate away from. And then, of course, you need to breathe more slowly in your nose, out your mouth. But there are little things like that that will help arrest the urgency.

Now, in a general sense, though, now I am learning -- when I do feel like I'm starting to get more anxious, I will literally shift my perspective and I will shift my eyes. Like, I will look up as if I am looking to the heavens from whence cometh my help. And when I'm looking up, I literally am making my eyes look up and I am reminding myself of the perspective that there's something more than my panic.

I literally -- when I told you all last night about that, "Father, glorify your name," I do, I go through my prayers. "Father, glorify your name. Lord, save me. Have mercy. Amen." Just shifting my mind immediately and rebranding the moment from panic to peace through God's Word has truly helped me. So I hope that helps somebody if it's a thing.

Annie F. Downs: And I live alone and I have a weighted blanket.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Annie F. Downs: Where there isn't someone to hold you, I have a weighted blanket. And my counselor taught me what are five things you see, what are four things you smell, what are three things you can touch, what are two things you can hear, and what is one thing you could taste? I'm always like, "Oreos." But if you don't have someone that can hug you right away in your home, having a weighted blanket for those moments meets a bit of those needs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Even sitting on the ground or leaning up against the wall, something that grounds your body.

Annie F. Downs: Yes. Yes, that's right.

Karen Kingsbury: That's great.

Annie F. Downs: Thank you for sharing all that, Jennifer. I think sometimes people think that anxiety doesn't happen to people who have it all together like you, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's what I thought.

Annie F. Downs: That's what you thought too.

Jennifer Rothschild: What in the world?

Annie F. Downs: That is the best answer. You're like, yeah, Annie, I thought so too. I also thought I had it all together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no, I don't.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, Karen, who are some of your favorite authors? Who are you reading?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, that's a fun question.

Annie F. Downs: Present table excluded.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, besides Jennifer and Annie.

Annie F. Downs: Besides Jennifer and Annie.

Karen Kingsbury: I'm going to hit up both of your tables because -- y'all, you have to get their books. Seriously amazing. I can't -- there were at least two you mentioned that I know I don't have, and I want to get the brave one. So anyway, that's great.

And beyond that, then I would say my favorite author beyond that is C. S. Lewis.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Karen Kingsbury: I really love C. S. Lewis. I just --

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too, sister girl.

Karen Kingsbury: I mean, my favorite is "Mere Christianity" where you just -- you know, you can read just a couple paragraphs and you're like, okay, I need about a day to think that over, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Karen Kingsbury: And so that's amazing. I mean, books, I would say -- I love Randy Alcorn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

Karen Kingsbury: He has some novels way back in the day, and they're really, really good.

Annie F. Downs: Does he?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, they are so --

Annie F. Downs: Before "Heaven" and before "Money" and all that?

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: What's the one --

Karen Kingsbury: "Deadline" and "Dominion" are two that I --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: Wait. That's Randy Alcorn?

Karen Kingsbury: Yes, that's Randy.

Annie F. Downs: I read those in college and I loved them.

Karen Kingsbury: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: He's so good.

Karen Kingsbury: They were probably why I became an author, to be able to -- I wasn't -- I didn't become a Christian until I was in my mid-20s. And so I read those --

Annie F. Downs: I did not realize that.

Karen Kingsbury: -- books, I'm like, okay, maybe I could write like that, you know. So, yeah, he's really good.

And then, I mean, I love John Grisham. Like, I just love a fast book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Have you read his latest, "The Exchange"?

Karen Kingsbury: I haven't read that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm curious to hear your opinion about how it ends. I was surprised.

Karen Kingsbury: Okay. Well, I really -- my favorite --

Annie F. Downs: Don't tell us, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm not.

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah, don't tell me.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm not.

Karen Kingsbury: My favorite John Grisham one is "The Testament."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: Oh, yeah.

Karen Kingsbury: Have you read it? And so "The Testament," if you've read it, is very much a Christian book. I mean, it'll --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Karen Kingsbury: No one will call it a Christian novel, but it's so good, where -- the premise, you know, that a billionaire changes his Will at the last minute and leaves everything to his daughter he doesn't know who's a missionary out in the jungles. It's so --

Annie F. Downs: Wow.

Karen Kingsbury: It's really, really good.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Karen Kingsbury: So, yeah, I mean, reading is so much a part -- people will say, "How do I become an author?" It's like, "Read."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. You don't write unless you read. That's true.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, so my next question, that no one wrote down -- I'm just here and she's stuck -- paper book or Kindle or audiobook?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Karen Kingsbury: Paper book.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You like to hold it in your hand?

Karen Kingsbury: I do. I do. I love to hold it.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's something about it, isn't there?

Annie F. Downs: Wow.

Karen Kingsbury: They like it.

Annie F. Downs: Round of applause for paper. Yeah.

Jennifer, one of the things -- so all your books that you listen to, does that mean Dr. Phil hears every novel that you listen to?

Jennifer Rothschild: No, because I use ear buds. So I'm always reading a dead author, and I'm reading something for my spiritual growth, and I'm reading a testosterone fiction.

Annie F. Downs: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So yesterday I'm sitting at lunch and I was listening to Virginia Wolf, Mrs. -- oh, what's her name? Dalloway?

Annie F. Downs: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, written in the '20s. And I'm listening -- and I say, "Hey, you want to hear what I'd be doing if you weren't here?" and I'd press play and he listened. And he goes, "I could not handle that." And I said, "I know," put my earbud back in. No, he doesn't have to listen.

Karen Kingsbury: All right, I'm sending you "Just Once." Because she's a World War II spy. Lots of shoot-em-up stuff -- okay? -- we're going to end with love story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's what I need. All right.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, Jennifer, the next question. Are you working on a new study right now?

Jennifer Rothschild: I am, actually. I am working on a study on Heaven. So my next Bible study will be on Heaven.

Karen Kingsbury: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: A tiny little subject.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: The subtitle is "When Faith Becomes Sight." You know what's interesting? I didn't plan this, but my very first Bible study I ever wrote was called "Walking by Faith: Steps to Walking by Faith, Not by Sight." And now I'm writing on Heaven, "When Faith Becomes Sight." So maybe I'm done after this one, I don't know.

Annie F. Downs: Please no, don't be done.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I'm telling you, I am learning so much. But here's what the really fascinating thing is for me, is I am unlearning so much about Heaven.

Karen Kingsbury: That's going to be great.

Annie F. Downs: Interested.

Okay, Karen. One of our friends has a one-year-old. What is the best mom advice for someone with a one-year-old?

Karen Kingsbury: I mean, right off the top of my head, it's just soak in every minute, you know? We have a one-year-old grandson right now, Braden, and he -- you know, one is like -- it's such a fun age because, like, they make eye -- like, he'll go, "Grandma." They're so in the moment. They're, like, here. They really are part of the conversation. And I think that would be part of the advice, is certainly realize that they are part of the conversation. So address them, include them, pray over them.

I mean, Kelsey and Kyle are teaching him prayers already that he knows how to say Amen, and it's, "mm-mm." You know, he can say it. And knows how to praise Jesus. That's just one of his first things he learned. You know, we have to have conversations with our kids. You build bridges that you'll cross later.

How about you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, that's good. Okay. I think when looking back, I think my advice would be it's serious stuff, but don't take it too seriously. Everything you do is not going to either make that child succeed or fail. But what will be the best for that child is authentic, peaceful living in front of them. Because they're fully present. Soak it in and you just live 100% with it. The dishes are far less important than sitting on the floor and playing.

Karen Kingsbury: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I wish I could go back sometimes and -- I love a clean house, but I think sometimes we feel so much pressure that we focus on the wrong things. So ask God to show you what the right things to focus are on.

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah. And you can sleep later.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you sure can.

Annie F. Downs: That's a great -- one of the questions for me, that it really is the same answer, is what's the biggest thing God's shown you through not being married yet, and it is love the season you're in.

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Annie F. Downs: Like, love the season you're in. If you have a one-year-old, or if you're not married yet, or if you're a grandparent, love the season that you're in, because it's not promised to last forever.

Karen Kingsbury: Okay, I have a question for you --

Annie F. Downs: Sure.

Karen Kingsbury: -- then, on that note, since -- this is just off the cuff. You're here and you can't get away.

Annie F. Downs: That's right.

Karen Kingsbury: So I have some kids who are -- you know, they're maybe a tad younger than you, just a tad, but they're not married. And I pray for them all the time, you know, that -- Lord, bring the right -- bring the right girl, you know, for the ones that -- and I don't want to embarrass -- because Austin's here, so I don't want to say -- he's 26, so he's young. But I have a 31-year-old son as well. Anyway, and he's learned this, being content, and I'm like, "But not that content, please."

Annie F. Downs: Right, right. Yeah, have a little piece of the pie left that you're not okay. Yeah, for sure.

Karen Kingsbury: So my question is dating apps. That's my question.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, I think -- yes, I think that's really important, because contentment -- I don't totally think contentment is possible. Because if that was true, after we ate lunch, we would never want dinner.

Karen Kingsbury: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word. And that's the ache we're supposed to have.

Annie F. Downs: Yes, yes. So it is okay to want while you love the life that you have.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: So with dating apps, they are a part-time job if you're going to do them. I mean, you have to, like --

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah, I'm off the market.

Annie F. Downs: Right, right, right, this is not your problem directly.

Karen Kingsbury: This will be what I'll pass on to my son.

Annie F. Downs: Yes. I think it is a great reminder -- apps are a great reminder that you don't know everyone in town.

Karen Kingsbury: That's great. Oh, I love that.

Annie F. Downs: And sometimes it can feel like I know everyone and, therefore, there is no one.

Karen Kingsbury: That's right.

Annie F. Downs: And then the downside of apps, if you aren't on them, is you literally see the guy and then you go, no, yes, no, yes. It's kind of like you're shopping. And so using the apps as a way to meet new people is -- do you see someone that you might have something in common with? Get off the app as quick as possible and go on a date. And don't keep staying on there forever.

But I think God -- it's the number one way. I just read a book this week that it's like -- 53% of couples that are meeting right now are meeting online. And that's not just apps, that's Instagram, that's all these places. But get offline as quick as you can to see if it's someone that you want to keep pursuing a relationship with.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word, Annie.

Karen Kingsbury: I love that. That's really good.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good word.

Annie F. Downs: I like them fine.

Karen Kingsbury: And I was taking notes. I'm going to share that. Yeah, I'll tell Austin.

Annie F. Downs: Also, I know some great young girls in Nashville. So now I'm playing a whole different game in my head.

Karen Kingsbury: What church are you at?

Annie F. Downs: Cross Point.

Karen Kingsbury: Okay. So good, yeah.

Annie F. Downs: I'm on it, Austin. I got you.

Okay. So how do you gracefully cope with a sudden serious illness and health of your family at the same time?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, as if the mom or the woman or wife is sick?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I've never had that experience, but I would apply this principle to it. I know with blindness, one of the things that I strongly dislike is that I have to fight feeling like a burden. My husband has to always help me more than I can help him. My kids, even growing up, they had to compensate for things because I couldn't do them. And that's very difficult. And so if you have a sudden illness and something has happened, you might feel like, oh, great, I need help and I can't help. And we think that's a negative.

I'll never forget Joni Eareckson Tada -- we were talking about this once and she said, "You know, when I get to a door and I'm in my wheelchair and I need someone to open the door for me, I ask them, 'Could you open the door?'" And she says, "I know it's going to bring them a sense of esteem, so I'm helping them by them helping me."

So that's, I guess, what I would say to whoever wrote this question, take the pressure off yourself. If you got needs, let your people meet those needs. You don't have to meet their needs. In their meeting your needs, it will esteem them and help them grow, and you're helping them in many ways beyond what you realize.

Karen Kingsbury: Yes. Oh, I haven't been through that, but I had a character that went through that, of course.

Annie F. Downs: Amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love you.

Annie F. Downs: Your husband leaves immediately.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Annie F. Downs: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what did your character do?

Karen Kingsbury: I was going to say, "Well, when Elizabeth was sick," and then I thought, well, she's not real, so I should be careful to make sure. But -- okay.

Annie F. Downs: So good.

Karen Kingsbury: So she got cancer, and it was her second time, and so she was really, really, really sick. But what she did, because she couldn't do a lot, and she wasn't able to do some of the physical the things she would like to do for her family, but she wrote letters to them. So maybe you need to sleep a lot. Maybe you're bedridden. But then find ways to communicate. Because at the end of the day, they're not going to remember the lunches and the cleaning that you did. They're not going to remember that as much as they will remember your words.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so true.

Karen Kingsbury: If you can capture words.

And, you know, I had a friend who got really sick, and she ended up passing and going to heaven. But she was surrounded by people who I thought were praying a little interesting -- it wasn't quite this way. And they said, "Don't write letters, because that's like saying we don't believe you're going to be healed." So they wouldn't let her. They came in and wouldn't let her. It was so hard for a couple of us who were like, yeah, but what if she --and her daughter is getting married next weekend, and there's no letters or anything. And so I would encourage people who are sick, or not sick, write letters to your family. Get a Bible -- here's a good thing. Your Bible with the journal, with the edges where you can write and read through the New Testament, writing letters to a child or grandchild.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Karen Kingsbury: That will be the gift they will treasure their whole life.

Annie F. Downs: Oh, 100%.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, we'll finish here. What is the funniest thing that's happened to you on the road while you're traveling?

Jennifer Rothschild: I think Annie should go first, don't you?

Karen Kingsbury: I do.

Annie F. Downs: Oh, I can tell y'all, this is also my most embarrassing moment, happened with our dear Ms. Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

Annie F. Downs: About three weeks ago Dr. Phil said, "Annie, will you walk Jennifer over there?" and I walked her into a chair. And I was mortified and I think about it every night when I try to go to sleep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Annie F. Downs: Dr. Phil asked me to do one thing in an empty room and I ran her straight into a chair.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, here's the thing. You may not be a competent guide dog, but you're a very cute one.

Annie F. Downs: Thank you. It was -- I've thought about it practically daily.

Jennifer Rothschild: I am so sorry, because I haven't even remembered it.

Annie F. Downs: Now it's out in the open, now you will recall.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, we'll have to do a redo in a room with no chairs.

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway... All right, Karen, what about you?

Karen Kingsbury: Well, I have so many. But I think the one that stands out as being the most embarrassing funny moment, I was doing an event with Mandisa. And she had her band and whatnot, and I had asked her backup singer, Ronald, Ronnie, and I had asked him if he would come and play the keys under me reading "Let Me Hold You Longer." And so I did a couple wrong things. First of all, he started coming out -- he started coming out a little bit too early. And why do you think you can whisper into a mic? You can't.

Annie F. Downs: Oh, good.

Jennifer Rothschild: I've done that.

Annie F. Downs: Great. I love this story.

Karen Kingsbury: Then I called him Andrew, first of all. I said, "Andrew, Andrew, not yet, not yet, not yet." Everybody could hear the whole thing.

Annie F. Downs: And people probably think you're acting out a scene.

Karen Kingsbury: Right.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, like one of her characters.

Karen Kingsbury: And he's not responding because he's not named Andrew.

Annie F. Downs: Right, right. He's just right on it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, Karen, that's so good. That's so good.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, your turn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, this is hard for me because -- so this happened many years ago. I guess it's funny. I was really actually mortified, but I guess it's kind of funny.

Karen Kingsbury: You should go ahead anyway.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you remember back in the day the Crystal Cathedral?

Karen Kingsbury: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And Robert Schuller, when he was alive, was a very dear man, and he had invited me many times to participate in events at his church. And this particular time was a women's conference. And I had shared, then the next Sunday I had shared, and we were all having lunch after the Sunday morning service. And we're up in the top of the tower, and it's just so posh and fancy. It's all his people, you know, and they're wearing their robes. I'm like, fancy. I'm feeling so out of my element.

And I -- it was his wife who's asking me some questions, and then she says something like, "You know, I was just fascinated how you memorized your whole message. And what did you do to memorize all of your message?" And everybody had been talking amongst themselves. And you know how you listen to other people while you're talking to other people?

Annie F. Downs: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it's like as soon as that question was asked, everybody stopped, and they're listening. And I was very intimidated, I was very nervous, I was not being very clear. And I had spoken about, like, faith and fortitude -- I don't remember what they were. But all my points started with F, and so I just said, "Well, I just used the F word three times."

Annie F. Downs: Oh, yes. Fantastic.

Jennifer Rothschild: I meant words that started with F. And I was so intimidated, I said -- I used the F word three times in front of Dr. Schuller.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, for sure. For sure you did.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I didn't do that, obviously. I didn't. It's funny now, but it was so mortifying then. And then trying to scramble. There's just some things you just need to move on and say, "How about that chicken?"

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway...

So now the beans are officially spilled. Would you thank these ladies. Y'all rock. I love you. Thank you.

Karen Kingsbury: Love you too.

K.C. Wright: All right. You need to go straight to the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/306. Or go to freshgroundedfaith.com, because you need to plan on attending a Fresh Grounded Faith this coming fall because they're all so good. What you just heard, that caffeine for your ears, that coffee bean for your ears, the Spill the Beans, I'm telling you, that happens every time at a Fresh Grounded Faith. They are so good.

You can also go to the Show Notes to read the transcript and see all the links to Annie and Karen's books. And we don't say it a lot, but Jennifer has some amazing books too, and we will link you to her books also on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/306.

All right. You know what's coming next. Until next week, remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who supernaturally strengthens you. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. He does supernaturally strengthen us.

K.C. Wright: How many coffee beans do you think you can consume --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

K.C. Wright: -- to do about 20 laps around your house right now?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh. The way I'm feeling now, I can only eat about two more. I'm glad you handled that outro, because I would have been buzzing.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Annie F. Downs and Laura Story at Fresh Grounded Faith Plant City, FL [Episode 298]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name. So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on The 4:13.

Are you an introvert or an extrovert? What do you do to unwind? Or here's another question. What's your favorite smell or your favorite sound? Well, these are just a few of the questions that we were asked, and these are the questions that we answered as we sat around the Bistro table in Plant City, Florida, at a Fresh Grounded Faith. Author and podcaster Annie F. Downs and singer-songwriter and author Laura Story, they sat with me and they gave so much insight and inspiration when we spilled the beans. And that is exactly what you are about to get today too. In fact, we are going to cover the importance of hanging out with a small group, how I preserve memories when I can't see pictures, and there was even some good advice for the single ladies. And then right in the middle of this -- I got to give you one heads-up -- Annie surprised Laura with some first-class plane tickets. So you have got to hang out and hear what happened. So let's get ready to spill some beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome my soul sister, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. We're glad you're here. It's just me and K.C. here in the podcast closet. Two friends, one topic, and zero stress. But you know what? That is a lie today. I have not got zero stress. In fact, K.C., what do I have in my hand?

K.C. Wright: Jennifer is literally -- we tell the truth. We speak -- we speak the truth. She is squeezing her stress ball.

Jennifer Rothschild: I am squeezing my stress ball. Because I am stressed out because my computer is acting up. Now, I know nobody loves it when their computer acts up, but can I just say this? My computers are very challenging because they have to have talking software. They do not play nice with everything. So my main computer, who I call Baby Dell -- I'm about to unadopt him -- he has been giving me trouble, so I got a new one knowing his time was coming. Well, his time may have came this morning.

K.C. Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: He gave me the silent treatment. He has not said one word to me, which makes it impossible for me to do these podcasts. So I pulled out the new one --

K.C. Wright: And it's nice.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

K.C. Wright: It's light as a feather.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's beautiful. But unfortunately, I don't have it set up totally for my needs. So we are, like, pushing through here, people. So when I was at Walgreens getting some Advil, the cashier handed me this. It's a stress ball shaped like a pill. So I've been squeezing it. Anyway...

But I started complaining, and K.C. was like, "Well, I can complain," because he's had a stressful morning. So go ahead, share with our people.

K.C. Wright: Well, have you ever had a morning where you get the weirdest, strangest text? That was my morning.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ugh.

K.C. Wright: I mean, I wake up, it's just a beautiful morning. I am so looking forward to being with Jenn and you here on The 4:13, and my phone just starts dinging, dinging, dinging, dinging. It's just interesting. It was some church members asking me really interesting, strange Bible questions that you can Google this. And then also my neighbor's on there going, "Your dog pooped in my yard."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

K.C. Wright: And I responded going, "No, my dog doesn't do that on the side of the house, he does that behind my house." And she goes, "Well, I'm not trying to split hairs, but I'm telling you, it's your dog."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness. Good morning.

K.C. Wright: And then just some other things, just some weird stuff. And I'm like, "What in the world?" But here's the point. All this is before, like, 8:30.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and didn't you get a text from your church members asking you about --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- like, some weird theological concepts?

K.C. Wright: Yeah, about the Tower of Babel. I don't even know who I am in the morning. I can't even -- I don't know who I am without that cup of java. Don't be asking me about the Tower of Babel.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so funny.

K.C. Wright: I can't even babble.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

By the way, I heard something funny. So Phil and I have this ongoing thing. Like, he'll say something and I'll say, "What?" And he's like, "I don't think you can hear." I said, "No, I don't think you're speaking clearly." Anyway, I read something the other day. It's like, "I'm not slurring, I'm just speaking in cursive." And I thought --that's what he sounds like. But I thought that's what I sound like before coffee. That's probably what you sound like before coffee. So, yeah, we can't deal with dog poop and the Tower of Babel before coffee.

K.C. Wright: Thank you. And before 9:00 o'clock.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

K.C. Wright: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. We're going to spill some beans -- some more beans. We've already spilled some. But let me give you a few kind of heads-up before you hear this conversation. Because you are going to love it. Okay. So one of the things that happened is during the weekend, Annie told a story about getting free first-class seats. I told a story about getting a free first-class seat. Neither of us knew we were going to tell the story. And then Laura gets up and she's like, "Well, that's nice. I never got a first-class seat. Nobody ever gave me one." Okay? So you need to know that going into it. When you hear what Annie does, you'll understand why it's significant.

Okay. The other thing is -- that I wanted you to be aware of when you hear this, Annie had referred to a woman named Nancy. She calls her her Nancy. Okay? And this is just her mentor. So if you hear Laura talk about Nancy, that's what they're talking about. It's Annie's mentor. Okay?

And then, last thing, when we begin this conversation, Laura had just sung a song, which I absolutely love, called "Give You Faith." If you've never heard it, you have got to hear it when this podcast is done. Okay? And we'll have a link to it, of course. But that's what I'm commenting on when this conversation begins, just so you know. All right? Here we go.

Wow, Laura, that's just so beautiful.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, that was beautiful, Laura.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what? I was thinking even -- you know, from a motherhood perspective, those lyrics are so powerful. But, you know, from a mentoring and just being sisters in Christ --

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- those lyrics fit. Let me get out my Spill the Bean cards. Hold on.

Annie F. Downs: In your boots?

Jennifer Rothschild: They're in my boot.

Annie F. Downs: Ma'am, you're extraordinary.

Jennifer Rothschild: Annie, why don't you read.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, Jenn, here's the question. How do you preserve baby memories when pictures don't work for blind moms?

Jennifer Rothschild: I thought that was such an interesting question.

Annie F. Downs: That's such a nice question, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what I like about the question, too, is I think this applies to anybody, any mom. So I take audio pictures. You can ask my family. I take audio pictures all the time. And so, like, if you do follow my 4:13 Podcast, you know I just posted some Italy audio pictures. And I got to go to Italy, so everywhere I went, I took audio pictures of where I was. And I do the same with my grandchildren. Now, when I had little children, I didn't have that, but we had a little cassette tape, Fisher Price, so I have recordings of talking with the little boys.

But sometimes just turning it on for a minute and recording yourself playing with the baby or -- it's amazing what those audio pictures bring back. So, yeah, I would suggest audio pictures, not just 'cause you might need them because you're blind, but because it will open up a part of your brain and memory when you listen to them later.

Annie F. Downs: That's beautiful. That's really helpful.

Laura, can you speak to the strengths you've seen in introverts and extroverts in serving the Lord? I am -- shocker -- extrovert.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I'm -- yeah, big shock.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Everyone's --

Laura Story: Really?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Laura Story: That's --

Annie F. Downs: I know, surprising. Surprising.

Jennifer Rothschild: What are you, Laura?

Laura Story: That's a good question. I'm -- okay. So have you ever heard of an ambivert? Or maybe someone made this up and told me that's what I was.

Annie F. Downs: No, no, no. I like it. Keep going.

Laura Story: It's in the middle between an introvert and extrovert.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Laura Story: So I -- definitely people skills and I love being around people, but I also -- I need some alone time to recharge.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Because this friend's asking -- her question is because it feels harder for her to be around people all the time, but she feels called to ministry.

Laura Story: Oh, absolutely. And I think that that might be a ministry myth --

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Say that.

Laura Story: -- that extroverts are the main people that God uses in public spaces like this.

I think sharing your story, it's not an introvert or extrovert thing. There are certain -- I think the introvert-extrovert thing -- and, Annie, you probably have done a little more even study on this than I have. But this idea, an extrovert, I think, is more fueled by it and an introvert is more like -- I don't know. I'm trying to figure out introvert or extrovert. When you go to a party, are you -- like, after you talk to everyone there, are you just completely jazzed or are you completely exhausted? If you're completely exhausted, like I am, you're probably more of an introvert. But it doesn't mean that you like people any less and it doesn't mean that God's called you to share your story any less.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Annie F. Downs: How do you feel, Jennifer, at the end of a party? Or, like, after today?

Jennifer Rothschild: Exhausted. I love people, but I am drained quickly. Part of it is because I'm fully present. If I'm with you, I am 100% with you.

Annie F. Downs: You are, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So if there's 30 of you around me, I am absorbing 30 people's stuff.

Annie F. Downs: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I get very drained. I love alone time. You can ask my husband. He goes to movies by himself, he does -- because I love alone time. I love quiet. But in ministry -- I'm glad you said that about the myth, because I am a learned extrovert. Because it's not about us, you know. So if we can just -- whatever the Lord's called us to do in serving, he will supply that grace, and I can manage being around a lot of people because I love people. You just have to balance it.

Annie F. Downs: And extroverts have to have a learned introvertness in ministry. You don't have to be the loudest voice and you don't have to be the center of attention. So I like that you're saying that, Jennifer, because it feels like -- if you're called to follow Jesus, that includes your personality.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

Annie F. Downs: And we don't want to be different than he made us, but there are times we can submit our greatest strength to the room. And sometimes that means calling you up to be extroverted if we need you to be, and sometimes it means, "Annie, shush."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Annie F. Downs: That's what it means.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Annie F. Downs: That's what it means sometimes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good.

Annie F. Downs: Okay. This is for either of y'all. Is it difficult to find a small group or a Bible study group because of being known publicly?

Jennifer Rothschild: That is for you too, Annie. And especially -- y'all too are both on your church staff.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so we've got some church leaders in this room today. What is it like for you all being, you know, in your public role?

Annie F. Downs: So I'm big on the teaching team. You know, one of the benefits I have in Nashville is a lot of people have public lives.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, true.

Annie F. Downs: And so my people -- there's about seven of us -- and half of us live in Nashville, and the other half don't -- and we're on Marco Polo all the time. But because we share public life as part of our ministry, that's something we can process together too. So that has been a gift to me, is finding some people in my place like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: What about you, Laura?

Laura Story: So I've been at my church for 18 years, and they're just my people.

Annie F. Downs: They do not care, huh?

Laura Story: Well, I try to tell them, like, that I am a big deal --

Annie F. Downs: I've been trying to tell them for two decades.

Laura Story: -- but it just doesn't -- they don't seem to get it, so I really haven't had that struggle.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that so much. That's how I feel about my church, though. Like, they're just my people, and I'm their people. I feel safe with them and comfortable and, like, not any big deal at all, and I love that. But then I also have, like, my two or three. Because I am introverted. I do better with my small little people. So I have certain friends that we just do life together. And it's interesting, sometimes real spiritual growth can occur also outside a formal Bible study, just in a Christian community where women are honest with each other and encourage each other with the Word.

Laura Story: Yeah. And I have two friends, and I've -- I literally have two friends.

Annie F. Downs: I have two friends, and they're at this table.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Laura Story: They're right here. I have two friends that are like my Nancy's, I guess. Is it Nancy?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Story: And just tell them everything. And that is something that I did figure out from having a little bit of a public life, is I can't tell everyone everything. And really shouldn't anyway. But it's really sweet. I think I used to in my younger -- my younger, like, on-stage self, the evil one would try to trick me into believing you can't -- it's exactly what you were saying, you can't tell anyone really how you're doing. And I'm so thankful that the Lord has brought me out of that. And that wasn't, like, a long season, but it is kind of complicated. Sometimes you can't figure out who wants to be your friend because they have you on an unfair pedestal?

Annie F. Downs: Yes. They figure it out pretty quick, though, don't they?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laura Story: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Okay. This one's for me. Advice for single women. Let's go, single ladies. Advice for single women looking for a husband, feeling discouraged, getting older, and everyone around her is getting married and having kids. We can talk about that. But I want to read the next sentence because I think everyone can feel this. "It feels like everyone is moving on in life and I'm stuck in the same place." That is not unique to being single. That is human. The feeling of that I can relate to. I'm 43. If you'd have told me at 23 I wouldn't be married at 43, I'd have slapped you.

But it can feel discouraging -- right? -- to be praying for something and longing for something and watching other people get it. And I have had that experience of other people are getting married; wait, other people are having babies; wait, they have elementary school kids; wait, their kids are graduating high school, and it can feel like you are being left behind. But the truth of God's story is that you aren't in her lane, you're in your lane, and so we just keep going in our lane. No one else has married your husband that you're going to marry at the right time. Like, it's not like you're like, "Oh, no. Well, that's the last one." Right? That's not the story. This isn't Chick-fil-A at 10:35. You didn't miss it. And so you aren't going to miss the thing God has for you. If you are pursuing God, you have not missed what he has for you. You just have to be a little disciplined. I'm not telling you not to feel your feelings. If we're friends, you know I'm going to tell you to feel your feelings about this and tell someone.

But we just have to -- in all of our lives, whether it is the mom who wishes she had more kids or -- I mean, let's put my mom in this story, Jennifer and Laura. I mean, my mom didn't think I wouldn't have grandkids for her. So my mom has to sit in the seat with her peers. And her peers have a lot of grandchildren. My mom has one. And my sister had a baby last summer that died. So my mom has one grandson and one grandson who's died. That isn't the story my mom thought she'd have either.

So it's a really interesting thing to -- it isn't just you who doesn't have your story. All of us don't have the story we thought we'd have. And so we have to be a little disciplined and put our blinders on and go, "Okay, God, so what is my lane?" And I can be disappointed that you haven't answered my prayers and I can be disappointed you haven't given me the thing I thought you'd give me and I can be disappointed about this, that, and the other, but my blinders are on my lane, and I'm not going to worry about her in her lane as best I can on a -- you know, Thursdays may be worse than Tuesdays, I don't know. But it is hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word. It does apply to all of us in all things.

Laura Story: Yeah. I have friends that they say -- my single friends say that their least favorite thing is when someone says, "Oh, well, God just wants you to work on you."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, serious?

Laura Story: As if, like, marriage was, like, our reward for --

Annie F. Downs: Right.

Laura Story: -- oh, I finally got it all together --

Annie F. Downs: Right.

Laura Story: -- so I'm going to get married. Anyway, so I just want to apologize on behalf of all married people for the dumb things that we say to single people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Seriously.

Annie F. Downs: Well, listen, don't you know I've watched people get married and be like, I am healthier than her in my mind. I know -- I know my mental health is not -- okay, how'd she get that? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we all can do it. We all can see someone else's life and go, I deserve what they got. And then the Lord just is very kind to me and says, No. I have your story, and your story really matters, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, this is for all of us, it says. This is a great one. What are your favorite sounds, smells, and things to touch?

Jennifer Rothschild: What a fun question.

Annie F. Downs: I agree.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love the smell of a used bookstore.

Annie F. Downs: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love the smell of my Uncle Fred's tobacco in his pipe. I love the smell of leather. This is easy for me.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, you're doing great.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I love the smell of espresso. I love the smell of coffee, but I really love the smell of espresso. Okay, there you go.

Annie F. Downs: Good.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what else I love the sound of?

Laura Story: What?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: A dryer spinning. It's very comforting.

Annie F. Downs: We're learning so much about you, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it says there is hope for warm, nice-smelling laundry in just a few minutes.

Annie F. Downs: Wow. Just give her a pipe and a dryer, she is a satisfied woman. That's all she needs.

Laura Story: That's amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: What about you?

Laura Story: Lysol.

Jennifer Rothschild: You like the smell of Lysol?

Laura Story: In silence.

Annie F. Downs: This question, meant to be so fun, is eye-opening.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's therapy.

Annie F. Downs: Lysol in silence. That's going to be your next book title, Laura.

Laura Story: It just speaks to my stage of life.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, certainly.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think so.

Annie F. Downs: Back to our single friend who wrote a question. You know what you and I aren't caring about? Lysol in silence. So good on us.

Jennifer Rothschild: What's yours?

Annie F. Downs: You know, Jennifer, I don't know if I've ever told you this, my grandparents owned a used bookstore, and I worked every Saturday with them at it. And so you're right, that smell. There's just something about books that does not go away.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Annie F. Downs: I also love the smell of -- this is silly -- it won't shock you -- of an ice cream store.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I do too.

Annie F. Downs: I like everything about an ice cream store. I like the cone smell, I like the ice cream. I like how cold it is when you open the door.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: Just -- I'll see you there. I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's -- that would be a great audio picture, you and me in an ice cream store.

Annie F. Downs: It's going to happen.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's going to happen.

Annie F. Downs: Maybe in Spring -- sorry, Plant City. Maybe in Springfield.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Laura Story: I feel like my answer was kind of pathetic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, give us something else.

Annie F. Downs: Listen. Don't judge what you love.

Laura Story: I also like being at a restaurant where I can smell the good food and where no one -- I'm not standing to order and no one's asking me, "Would you like fries with that?"

Annie F. Downs: Well, I was with you till the very end.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you like to be seated, you like to hear the cutlery hitting the plate, cloth napkins.

Laura Story: I just like doing something that reminds me I am --

Annie F. Downs: Laura's like, You guys, I'm cool. I like people. It's not just about puking. It's not just about cleaning up.

Laura Story: I just like being reminded that I am an adult.

Annie F. Downs: You are. You are.

Laura Story: That I can go do grownup things.

Annie F. Downs: I would love to hear y'all's -- I'm excited to hear y'all -- this is -- part of the rhythm of what we do for our jobs, this is true for you. When you get home from your job, you do something to unwind. And so one of our friends is asking us after we do this, who do you listen to? What do you do to fill your cup back up? Podcast, books, preachers, speakers?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Well, my answer may be surprising. Because I'm always in the Word studying, and because I tend to analyze, it's hard for me not to analyze when I hear teaching. I do not listen to podcasting or teaching to unwind. I listen to a fiction book. And I call them my fiction vacation. Shaun and I were talking about this morning. Like, even when I got to the room last night, I have learned to discipline myself not to rewind and analyze the evening, just to trust the Lord with our offering, and I literally turned on a book and I listened to it while I was getting ready for bed, just to totally clear my mind and go somewhere different. And It does help me to just kind of regroup, you know? I like testosterone fiction, mystery thrillers.

Annie F. Downs: Do you? Do you get spooked?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. No, because I like -- I just like -- I like it when the hero wins. And, like, he is going to pull out his gun and get that bad guy right now.

Laura Story: You don't get scared, like, in your room?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Because I sleep with Granddaddy's fishing knife. So if anybody ever --

Annie F. Downs: Dr. Phil, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's right by my bed.

Laura Story: Are you being serious?

Jennifer Rothschild: I am. Because I've learned from my people in my mystery thrillers how to take somebody out if I had to. Don't mess with me. Don't mess with me.

Laura Story: Dr. Phil, I have a whole new appreciation. You sleep with a blind woman with a knife.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Legit.

Laura Story: That's amazing.

Annie F. Downs: Legit. He said, "I do not surprise her."

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Annie F. Downs: You sleep with a blind woman with a knife. I hope someone's right -- I hope you're still taking notes in your listening guide, because that is exactly...

Jennifer Rothschild: So what do y'all do to unwind?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, how do you unwind, Laura?

Laura Story: I don't remember the -- I don't remember the last time I did. Go ahead.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, I don't remember the last time I did.

I watch sports. That's kind of my go-to.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's your thing.

Annie F. Downs: I really like -- like, I really enjoy cheering for something that has -- no offense -- no eternal value. Like, I like that we can kind of like -- I show up this enthusiastic about just about everything. And so I have to adjust my enthusiasm off of what's God doing, da, da, da, or I'm the worst person to be with for the next three hours.

In fact, the extrovert/introvert thing, the phrase I use is that after I'm at something like this, I'm people drunk. Because I'm just, like, so happy to see you. And aren't we all together and don't we want to stay up and talk and -- I mean, I just am like (makes machine gun sound). And so I have to do something like shift my energy to sports or to a book. I tend -- I'm with you, I tend to not listen to spiritual -- that's why I said I would tell Nancy tomorrow, and then the Holy spirit was like, "What if you told Nancy today?" and I was like, "Fine." But part of it is that I turn my energy off of the deep things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Me too.

Annie F. Downs: You know, most animals need to do deep water and shallow water --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

Annie F. Downs: -- and we do too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

Annie F. Downs: And so even when you're grieving, it's one -- I mean, when my nephew died last year, one of the things that my counselor really walked me through is the opportunity to be deep in grief and to come up for air. Because I kept feeling this pressure that I wasn't allowed to come up for air, but I needed it. Like, I needed to ride a roller coaster, and no one -- and I felt like I wasn't allowed to say that because I was just only allowed to be sad full stop all the time. And my body couldn't do it.

And so I'm the same way after events like this or after Sunday mornings when I teach. I have a little bit of time where the energy is still really high and I have to shift it or I get weird.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's so helpful. And then -- so I think of Laura. Like, I have an empty nest. You're single.

Annie F. Downs: I'm pre-nest.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, Laura, you come home to four little people who need you and are so glad you're home.

Laura Story: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So do you even get a chance to --

Laura Story: Yeah. And it's tough. Because as a traveling working mom, when I get home, I desperately want to spend time with my children, and I have no energy left to spend time with my children. And so I'm having to learn what that looks like. So it's like, hugs, hugs, hugs. "Hey, let's go watch that movie." (makes snoring sound) And they'll be in my arms and I'm fast asleep. Right before that, I ordered Domino's pizza to be delivered, you know. And so figuring out what does it look like to do the lowest energy version of -- you guys are probably thinking I'm a terrible parent at this point.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I think it's bright.

Annie F. Downs: No, we're not. No, we're not. We all get it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it's very bright. I don't know -- I remember what it was like to do this with just two little kids. So with four. And, you know, you're also helping even more than a lot of wives -- just like Phil has to -- and, yeah, I can imagine that you have to find creative ways to restore your soul.

Laura Story: Yeah. Thank you.

Annie F. Downs: Here's the thing, Laura. By the way, I'm only doing this in front of everyone because I think it's the only way you will respond.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Annie F. Downs: Laura and I are on the same flight --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: -- and you are in --

Laura Story: No. No. I do not believe -- hold on. I got to get ready for this. Okay, I'm ready.

Annie F. Downs: Laura, I just asked my manager, Jamie, if -- because we did get an upgrade today -- if you would let us trade seats with you and your son.

Laura Story: I do not believe you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you will.

Annie F. Downs: Y'all know I'm only paying it forward. This is not about me. I just knew she wouldn't do it at the airport, so I had to have some accountability.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: The accountability is you're in 4C and 4D --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: -- and we'll be wherever y'all were. So we're just going to switch-a-roo. It's so easy. Saturdays you get -- here's the trick. You always get an upgrade on Saturdays because all the traveling dads are home.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's amazing.

Annie F. Downs: Yesterday we were in the last row of the plane because all the dads were going back home from wherever they were working on Thursday and Friday. So, tradesies.

Laura Story: Are you serious?

Annie F. Downs: We're on the same flight. The Lord handled it.

Laura Story: That's so sweet.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that so much.

Annie F. Downs: You can't argue with us because, like, a thousand people know how you're getting home today.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Annie F. Downs: Your son's going to love it. He should ask for ice cream or something.

Okay, here's another question. "I find it comes natural and easy to show grace to others, but I hold myself to an unattainable standard." At least she knows.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: "How do you practice grace with yourself in a situation where you feel like a failure?" And I want to tell you one more thing. Our friend writing this is in her 20s.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, sweet baby. Oh, I was you. I was you in my 20s. And you know what? Let me just say that that response is usually the dark side of a very good virtue.

Annie F. Downs: That's right.

Laura Story: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so give yourself a little bit of a break.

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's just saying you have a high expectation for yourself. You want to do the right thing. You want to serve well, you want to show up 100%. That's awesome. And often when we are that way, the dark side and the place the enemy comes in and exploits is them, "Well, it's not good enough." "Well, you shouldn't have said that."

Annie F. Downs: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we are unkind to ourselves. I was.

One of the things that helped me is learning to think how I would speak to someone else. I give so much grace to other people. And so I had to start doing that. And I would literally call myself by my name. Okay? Studies have shown that talking to yourself is a very good guardrail in your life that helps inform your thoughts. But what studies have shown is if you use first person, it's more effective. So instead of me saying, "Jennifer, you tried your best, you need to show yourself grace" -- okay? So I'm saying "you." Instead, it would be, "Jennifer, I tried my best and I will show myself grace." There's something about this demand that it has on your brain when you say it like that, "I am going to do this and I believe this about me." So literally use words towards yourself in the way you would use them toward other people. Okay? That's one thing.

Now, I will say this. I still have the tendency to be hard on myself when I'm very tired or very stressed, and then I become my failure. And so I have to look at it and say, "I'm not my enemy's stresses, I am not a failure, that's just what I struggled with." And so it's again aligning your thoughts with the truth and continually telling yourself that. But I guess what I'm saying is it's not one and done in a formula.

Annie F. Downs: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not. So show yourself grace to know you might blow it over and over until you die, and you can keep telling yourself the truth along the way.

What about y'all? Is this an issue for you?

Laura Story: Yes. Oh, absolutely. I think one of the things just to remember is our basis for forgiveness is the cross, whether that's forgiving others or forgiving ourselves. Oftentimes we -- in my mind -- even though I would say, oh, yes, all paid for at the cross, totally believe it, but the way I live is, like, grace equals the cross plus my improved behavior.

Annie F. Downs: Right.

Laura Story: Or the cross plus my self-condemnation. Or the cross plus maybe a period of time that I need to feel bad or distant from God rather than believing that the sacrifice of God the Father, sending his Son to the cross, is sufficient. Truly -- and it's not like by your 87th time that you've sinned he's like, "Whoa, that one caught me off guard."

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Laura Story: I had paid for the 86th, but now you're really pushing it, you know. To have in mind that God foresaw everything that we would ever do, every thought we'd ever have. And it was excruciating, yet in some way delightful for him to allow his Son --

Annie F. Downs: That's beautiful.

Laura Story: -- to suffer so that we might feel grace.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, Laura, preach. That's so good.

Annie F. Downs: The simple thing I would say to a friend in my 20s who was talking about this is -- I remember being in my 20s, and at that point in my life it was -- the line between my good days and my bad days was really clear, and so it was hard to show myself grace because I would keep making this same mistake. And the older I've gotten, I've made so many more mistakes that if you don't show grace to yourself, you can't do this thing --

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Correct.

Annie F. Downs: -- you know? And so part of it, I'd say to my friend in her 20s, is like just hold on for the ride because you're going to keep messing up and you're going to have to. Like, you're just going to have to. You're going to do something that hurts people in such a way that you go, I could either stay in my house and never see them ever again or I have to believe that the cross was enough.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: And so don't give up on giving yourself grace, but also know that time will help.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

Laura Story: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: Time will help.

Jennifer Rothschild: I learn so much from these women, because they are just so bright and so deep and so wise and so fun.

K.C. Wright: I think you just described a Fresh Grounded Faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: It's all those things and so much more. And this was definitely one of the best Spill the Beans I have heard. So clearly, you need to go deeper with Laura's story and Annie F. Downs. We will link to their books, music, and podcasts all on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/298.

By the way, when I was at the last Fresh Grounded Faith, I met the gal who types out the Show Notes, and I said, "You get over here" --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

K.C. Wright: -- and I gave her a big ol' hug.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's Jill. Isn't she wonderful?

K.C. Wright: Because that's a lot of work.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a lot.

K.C. Wright: And what a wonderful resource.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

K.C. Wright: Also, of course, right there on the Show Notes we're going to have a link to all of Jennifer's books as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Plus, as K.C. said, a transcript so you can read the whole thing, because it'll be just so good. And we will also have a calendar of where Fresh Grounded Faith is going to be so that hopefully you can come and join us at one.

Okay. Until next week, get with your people around the table and spill the beans. Life is going to be much better when you do. And you can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: For real, you really can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. We don't lie around here.

K.C. Wright: Go tackle the day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, take it on.

K.C. Wright: And in my personal opinion, tackle it before you turn on your phone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, right?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And after your coffee.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Tammy Trent and Shaun Groves at Fresh Grounded Faith Greenville, SC [Episode 284]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer Rothschild. You know I love my audiobooks from Audible. That's how I'm able to read so many books in a year. If you've never tried it, you can get a 30-day free trial with no obligation. Plus, you'll get a free audiobook of your choice that you can keep. So go to 413podcast.com/Audible to get started. And now, the podcast.

We are coming to you live from Greenville, South Carolina, at a Fresh Grounded Faith conference. It's me, singer-songwriter Sean Groves, and Tammy Trent, the author and the singer and now the co-host of the Life Today TV show, and we are talking about how to know if you are called to ministry, how to show grace to someone maybe who has disappointed you, and we get very practical about how to manage depression. I also tell a story about climbing the Great Wall of China when it was a slab of ice. No kidding. And it was the dead of winter, so -- well, it's quite a story. Anyway...

I also tell the story of my worst makeup mix-up ever. This was funny, and it was warm and it was emotional, practical and wise, and it was everything you need to make this day even better. So pull up your chair to the Bistro table and let's Spill Some Beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and Biblical wisdom set you and I up to live what we call the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends, Jennifer here, and we're so glad you're here. K.C. Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. It's two friends and one topic, zero stress. Our goal is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life.

But I got to tell you, we got yelled at this morning. Did we get yelled at? We got spoken to in a loud voice. Because K.C. and I were having a little conflict in the kitchen over coffee.

K.C. Wright: Well, I'm loud.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you are loud. He is loud.

K.C. Wright: Well, I learned from you. I don't know if this is Scripture, but you said friends don't let other friends drink bad coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And that is true. But that is still no excuse for what you did. Okay, so here's the thing. Phil comes out and he's like, "Hey, y'all are being very loud," because our podcast closet is down here in the offices. And I guess we were being loud, and here's why.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's a coffee machine down here, a little Keurig, in the kitchenette. K.C. is not as particular as I am. Though he does have coffee taste, he is not as particular. So I brought downstairs my K-Cup of Verona coffee and I sat it down there. And I'm like, "K.C., go ahead and get your coffee." Well, then I'm trying to find mine. I can't find it anywhere. I'm like, What did I do with it? I must have hidden it so well. K.C. is over there sipping, and finally he goes, "I think I'm drinking your coffee." Well, I freaked out. I'm like, "Which one of us loses our testimony over bad coffee, K.C.?" Me. He was causing me to stumble. So I start yelling, he's laughing, we're just -- it was a moment. I'm just saying it was a moment between these two friends. There was not zero stress. Anyway, so I'm in here drinking quite substandard coffee, and his Verona smells so good.

K.C. Wright: She is passionate about the Gospel of Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: And coffee.

K.C. Wright: And coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: I am being a big fat, grown-up baby woman right now. But I really do want K.C. to have the better cup of coffee. That's Biblical. Kind of. Kind of. I don't really feel that way, but I'm just going to say that.

K.C. Wright: And I just walked in there and it was just sitting right there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

K.C. Wright: What's a man to do? I saw Starbucks, and away it went.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and if I were really a nice young woman, I would have just said, "Here, K.C., have the better coffee." Yeah, I feel under conviction. We need to hurry up and get on this conversation so I can go repent.

Anyway, let me tell you what you're about to hear. Tammy Trent -- by the way, if you've never heard her or seen her perform -- she is also a dancer, y'all. And she had just torn up the stage there at Fresh Grounded Faith and she had just danced. So you're going to probably hear us talking at the beginning of this conversation about her still catching her breath, because she was -- literally, she danced, she sat in the chair, and she was like (makes panting sound), still trying to catch her breath.

Okay. The other thing that you might hear, that you need to know because it might not make sense to you otherwise, we were spilling the beans on a Saturday. Karen Abercrombie, who was Miss Clara in The War Room --

K.C. Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- she had been with us the night before and done some drama and shared her testimony and just brought the house down. Anyway, so we might even refer to Karen at this conversation. And I wanted you to know who we are talking about, because we love Karen Abercrombie. And so when you hear the male voice, of course, that will be Sean Groves. He's going to be asking all the questions. So that's what you need to know so you can pull up your chair.

K.C. Wright: Hey, let me remind you about our friends. Tammy Trent is a singer-songwriter, author, and now the co-host of, like Jennifer said, the Live Today TV show. I call Tammy Trent sunshine with hair.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is.

K.C. Wright: Like, she's just a ball of sunshine.

Jennifer Rothschild: And energy. Well, you know, one of her songs is called Sunny Days.

K.C. Wright: I didn't know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: It fits her.

K.C. Wright: Okay. Then there's Sean Groves. He's amazing. As a worship leader, incredible storyteller, singer-songwriter, he's the man. And then you know our precious, anointed, appointed for such a time as this, J.R. All right? So pull up a chair. There is room at this table for you. And by the way, when you hear these podcasts live from a Fresh Grounded Faith, I mean, if this is not a sign, that means you need to book your flight to the next one, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. We will definitely show them where it's going to be on the Show Notes.

K.C. Wright: Because you can listen or you can be there. And I'm telling you, being there is a whole lot better.

But here we go. There's room at the table for you. Together let's Spill the Beans.

Sean Groves: So will you please share the moment that God revealed, after you lost your sight, that he had a vision for you in ministry.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good question.

Sean Groves: Was it a moment?

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's why I would like to answer it.

Sean Groves: Yeah, okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because, no, it wasn't a moment. It was a series of moments. And there are still series of moments that affirm or transition ministry for me. And I think that's an important thing for all of us, that -- well, I'll put it this way first. Ministry is not something we achieve; ministry is something we receive. And we receive it through opportunities that come where we respond with obedience. So to me, the real call of ministry is just a call -- it is a call of faithfulness.

When I was a kid, before I lost my sight, you know, I would lead the -- teenager -- I would lead the youth choir. I would even clean the bathrooms at the church. You know what I'm saying? That was, honestly, just as valid ministry as what I'm doing today.

Tammy Trent: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so, no, there probably wasn't a defining moment. There have been defining moments of faithfulness which have affirmed my calling, but I never felt an epiphany call. And I think all of us when we receive Christ, we receive the calling to ministry, whatever that looks like. And we do it faithfully, and the -- I told the volunteers yesterday -- because y'all, you have, like, 100 volunteers here who are pouring out for you this weekend. What I told them is what happens on this stage with Tammy and Karen and Sean and me, yes, it matters. But what they do is just as important. What you're doing in ministry is just as important, even if nobody knows your name, because the ground at the foot of the cross is perfectly level. There's no high, there's no low. And so, yeah, you be faithful in all the moments and you'll see how that has affirmed your calling.

Sean Groves: Yeah. That's good. That's really good.

All right, Tammy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Can breathe now?

Tammy Trent: I can. I'm halfway there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Sean Groves: So did you -- you've answered this, but I would like you to -- maybe you could give a bit more depth, because I've heard you give more depth on this. So did you ever remarry or have children? You talked a bit about that. Is there more you'd want to share on that?

Tammy Trent: No.

Sean Groves: All right, let's go.

Tammy Trent: No, no, no. So -- kidding. So, no, I have --

Sean Groves: Now we're on to Jennifer's lip liner.

Tammy Trent: I have not remarried. You know, the thing is, I -- like we talked about not looking -- for me, I'm not looking for that. But I'm open to what God has for me. I don't know that I'll ever marry again. I'm not sure. I'm not -- I don't want to be closed off to God's will, but I do think it's going to come as a great surprise. It could be when I'm 75. I don't know. You know, I'm 55 now, so I kind of feel like maybe when I hit 75, you'll see me walking on the beach with some old man, and I'd be like, "I'm so in love with him." Like, we can hardly walk, we're pulling each other in a wheelchair on the beach, you know, through the sand.

Sean Groves: Don't make that face when you meet him.

Tammy Trent: That might be why I'm still single today.

Jennifer Rothschild: But here's what I want to know. Okay, let's get right down to it. All right. So you've been married --

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and you know the fulfillment and companionship of marriage.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And now you are single and you still have great fulfillment. But do you long for the marriage companionship? Is that something that the Lord has replaced that longing?

Tammy Trent: He has.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Talk about that.

Tammy Trent: Yeah, Jenn. I mean, that's a great question. Because for whatever reason, I don't have a longing for it. Now, maybe it's because I experienced it to the fullest. Like, I was a girl that got -- you know, I met this guy so young, and then we married for 11 years and it was so rich and so good and I knew love so deeply. I don't think there's a fear of will I never experience that again or will somebody ruin what I have. I don't think like that. But I'm so fulfilled and I just think there's other things in my life that even in my singleness that God has made available to me. Even, like, television, things I'm doing now, I don't know that I could do that if I were married with kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, true.

Tammy Trent: The mission field that I go on a couple of times a year just traveling to Africa for three weeks at a time, I'm not sure how that would look. So I think what I've done in this season is that I've looked at what I do have in my life rather than what I don't have. So many of us spend so much time looking at what we don't have, what we wish we have, instead of what we have around us already that God has given us so that we can pour our lives into that.

So I didn't get to have kids, but I have a ton of nieces and nephews that -- what do I do now? I pour my life into these kids. And even three of them are coming to my house next week. Now they're in their mid-20s, late-20s. Two of the girls are single and they still want to hang out with Aunt TT. And I love it because I get to send them home --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tammy Trent: -- and I don't have to pay for their college.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tammy Trent: But I love it. And so again, I look at what I do have. Where can I pour my life? On a mission field with those little kids that aren't being held every day and I just kind of say, "Come and let me scoop you up for a day for a few hours." So I do try to look at what I do have.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word.

Sean Groves: Can I ask a follow-up question?

Tammy Trent: Yeah.

Sean Groves: This is purely for selfish reasons. I may be the only one in the room who cares about the answer. But you know that I'm on staff at a church in more of a pastoral care kind of role. And one of the great epiphanies of that, that so many of our single people at different stages of life have taught me -- I just was completely unaware of as someone who got married in his 20s -- was how hard our church makes it for people to be content in singleness. And that we oftentimes, just in the illustrations we use in sermons or just in our language, that we really kind of accidentally, honestly, have held up being married or having children as the Christian ideal. And I didn't realize that we were sending that message and hurting people.

But how does your church, your Christian community, serve you in that way? How do they affirm your singleness in this stage of life? How have they helped you to find that contentment?

Tammy Trent: Oh, my goodness. It's a really good way that you put that. And when I think of community, I think of my family as well. My parents are pastors, and so they have circled me well. And I think they have celebrated in my healing through the loss of Trent and just where God has me, and wanting me to find fulfillment in myself and in who I am, my identity in Christ. And so instead of rushing into relationship to let that person fulfill a need that I have -- because the truth is, no guy is ever going to fulfill those needs in me. No guy is ever going to make me the happiest. Only my -- for one, my relationship with Jesus. I'll keep throwing that at you because that's the way I live in my relationship with Jesus. At the same time, you have to know who you are. You have to be content in you. You have to find joy in you, not in somebody else.

So I think, Sean, to answer your question -- I've kind of circled it -- but they have helped me just find peace in myself growing and finding healing, and that if God has someone for me, great. But they've never pushed it on me. I've never felt pressure from my community or my circle, my pastor, that the end resolve of your story, Tammy, is that you've found love again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Tammy Trent: You're having sex.

Sean Groves: That's good.

Tammy Trent: Oops. You know what I'm -- it's that silly, though. You know, sometimes it's that silly, like it's -- but it's not that. There's so much more to even a healthy relationship to me than even just that what's missing in my life. It's like nothing right now that God isn't fulfilling and providing in my life and taking care of me. So I'm grateful I haven't experienced that. And I know some have and been hurt by that, to feel like you're not complete unless you're married.

Sean Groves: Well, I think maybe a dimension of your ministry that you may not even be aware of as much is that there are probably women every room that you step into who are feeling that way. And you standing on stage as a confident, secure, Godly, faithful minister of the Gospel, and you are whole and you're complete, you're not half a person waiting for your other half, your life is speaking truth and hope to those women.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Tammy Trent: Amen. Sean, thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Totally agree.

Tammy Trent: Thank you, my brother. Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Totally agree.

Sean Groves: So, Jennifer, this message of grace, grace, grace, how do you show grace, grace, grace when it's your loved one who's disappointed you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. And I don't need to be the only one answering this question. I would love to hear your all's opinions too.

Well, first of all, I think we all experience disappointment. We also are capable of disappointing others. So I think the first way to give grace to someone who has disappointed you is to recognize you have the capacity to do the very same thing. Except by the grace of God, there go I. And I have disappointed people. I will say this. This might be a hard word, so I say it to you with grace, I really do. When we are the least self-absorbed, we are the least able to be offended. And if it's hard for you to show grace to someone who has disappointed you, it could be because you've not received the grace of God yourself. It could be that maybe your expectations are to a level that might be unrealistic or, let's just be honest, maybe somebody is being a bonehead. You can still raise your expectations to the level of grace and remind yourself of how Jesus loves, forbears, and forgives you, and then through Christ in you, who is your power, you extend that to someone else.

There's a difference between showing grace and relinquishing boundaries. If somebody constantly disappoints you, you can have boundaries to protect yourself from being mistreated, but you can still show grace within boundaries. It's hard to speak so theoretically without specifics. But what do y'all think?

Sean Groves: No, I'm glad that you -- I was going to add the boundary thing, as I'm meeting with so many people in our church who are experiencing disappointment. But that's a broad category, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Sean Groves: I mean, there is -- someone might be using the term "disappointment," but they're really in a situation that's dangerous and unhealthy and -- so, yeah, boundaries is very important.

And so you'll hear us say this a lot. I'm sure we'll say it in our answers to other questions here. You're not meant to do any of this alone. So bring in wise friends -- not just any friend, but wise friends -- mentors, people who have walked a few more steps on this journey than you have, and someone that -- you know, I tell people, "Tell me who your 2:00 a.m. friend is." Like, not just that casual friend. But at 2:00 a.m. you call them and they don't try to fix you, they just welcome you. "Hey, come over." That's the person you need in this moment. Hey, I've been disappointed, here's exactly what it is. Will you pray with me? Will you help me discern next steps forward? So just to invite someone else into that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

Sean Groves: Because it may be that grace looks like getting away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Sean Groves: That grace just looks different in your situation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, if you're needing grace because you're disappointed in your husband because he forgets to close the toilet seat, like, that's a whole different issue --

Tammy Trent: Yeah, that's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- than needing to show grace when you're disappointed because you have been betrayed because of infidelity. So, yes, that's why you need a 2:00 a.m. friend to help you parse these things.

Sean Groves: Yeah. So how do you keep going when it feels like you're just walking uphill on the ice?

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's kind of a question of perseverance, isn't it?

Sean Groves: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what's funny about that question, though? I actually went to China in January and climbed the Great Wall of China. And it was covered with ice. So I kind of giggled when I hear that question, because I did climb the Great Wall of China on ice uphill. And it's interesting how I did it. Very interesting. I was holding on to my sister-in-law Carrie. Okay, y'all can apply this. I was holding on to my sister-in-law Carrie. So you got to hold on to somebody.

I had my cane, which assisted me, and I literally used it to steady me. But then you know what would happen? The wind would blow behind us every now and then, and literally there'd be this gust of wind behind us and we'd slide forward. So we weren't actually using effort and climbing, we were, like, being propelled.

And I just think of the times in my life where it just feels like the hard never ends, and it gets harder and then it's hard to do the hard. You know what I'm talking about? It is that feeling of ice uphill. And I think that kind of fits. Just like Sean just said, you find your 2:00 a.m. friend. You don't do it alone. You need the physical support, you need the spiritual and emotional support. But then you need to rely on what's around you.

You know, sometimes when I have had my darkest moments, my tendency is to isolate. I got to get inside my head and I got to figure this out. Once I can figure it out, then I can share it with somebody maybe so that I can tell them how to help me. And I'm just saying we need to rely on others and be honest at the time, and I think that's how you get through it. Like Sean said, we're not meant to do it by ourselves.

Sean Groves: Yeah. Bible Study Connection. If you haven't yet found that friend, it's a good place to start, in Bible Study Connection.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

Sean Groves: Or the woman who gave you a back rub.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. She loves you.

Sean Groves: Start right there. Start there.

Yeah, do you have anything to add to that? How do you keep going when you feel like you just can't?

Tammy Trent: No. Honestly, sometimes when I sit up here during Spill the Beans with whomever we have on the weekend, I walk away learning so much. Jenn, you -- I'm so grateful for you and your knowledge of the Word and just your knowledge of life, the way you've lived your life and the things that you speak and share. My life is richer because of you in my life. And Sean too. You have so much wisdom, and I'm grateful for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I'm more -- I mean more to you, though, than him?

Tammy Trent: You do. And I don't want him to know, so let's not tell him.

Sean Groves: He's really close.

Tammy Trent: He seems hairy and -- facial hairy.

But, yeah, so -- no, I'm just grateful. And I think the emotion comes from the knowing that -- everything you both said, that we just can't do life alone, we weren't meant to. And so is there a way to get rid of that icy hill you keep climbing? It might always -- I don't know if it's going to be a part of your life for a long while this side of heaven or a short season. I don't know. But I'm telling you, you'll get up that hill a lot easier when you're holding the arm of a great friend that's helping to pull you along or coach you along or push you along. So, I mean, the greatest advice is just listening to you both. It's so true. I could have never got through my sorrow and my grief if I didn't have safe people surrounding my life that loved God, that could pray for me when I didn't know what to pray myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. That's a good word. We have need of perseverance.

Sean Groves: Yeah.

Someone asked, have any of you dealt with depression? So on the count of three, show of hands, the three of us.

Jennifer and Sean: One, two, three.

Sean Groves: Yeah. Two-thirds. Two-thirds of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: I knew she hadn't.

Tammy Trent: How did you see that my hand was down?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I know that about you.

Tammy Trent: You can see. It's a miracle.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. It's all these charismatics here. I knew it would take. Anyway...

Sean Groves: [Laughs] That was good, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're welcome.

Because I know your life and I know you. And let's be honest too. I know you got some different brain chemistry than I have. I think you've got more dopamine than I ever had in my life.

Sean Groves: I think the serotonin pipe is always leaking. It's just dripping --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Sean Groves: -- dripping happiness.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think this is why Sean and I suffer. You stole all our brain chemicals.

Okay. But, yes, Sean and I have, and we've talked about it. And so I want to hear from Sean, because y'all have heard so much from me. Tell us about, yeah, what your struggle's been and how you've dealt with it.

Sean Groves: When I was 12, I remember sitting in Miss Armstrong's algebra class, and it was like someone put sunglasses on me and a cloud rolled over the sun, and I just -- it was just this deep, heavy despair. Greater than you normally experience in algebra class, right? So it was like -- and I couldn't explain it, and I thought I was losing my mind, and I didn't tell anybody. And I really just thought, well, this is a spiritual problem, I've lost my faith. I don't feel God, I don't know if I believe in God, and I just thought it was spiritual. I felt a lot of guilt and shame on top of that. And It went on for about a month, and then it just lifted and I couldn't explain it. And I can tell you that once or twice a year for many years that would happen to me.

And then when I was 30, the big one came, and it just knocked me out. And I had all the symptoms of major clinical depression. If you look at Google and look at a list, all of those I had. So insomnia, hypersomnia, physical pain. You know, I thought, no, no, no, there's no way this is depression. Like, I've got the flu or cancer or something bad. Like, my bones hurt. It was not just sadness. I guess for those of you who've never experienced it, that's what I would want you to know so that you can show us a bit of grace. It's not just feeling sad.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not.

Sean Groves: Sadness is just normal humanity. Bad things happen. You shouldn't feel good about it or you're a psychopath, right? Like, if bad things happen, you shouldn't feel good about it. But this was deeper than that. My legs felt heavy. It was like I had a toddler wrapped around each ankle and it was a struggle just to take one step. And I just couldn't think straight. I couldn't read sentences and make sense of the words. I couldn't put sentences together. And I was just completely incapacitated. And out of desperation, I went and saw a doctor. I saw a therapist. I saw a Biblical counselor on top of the therapist. I went to freedom prayer sessions and had people -- I called every charismatic I've ever known and said, "You've got to teach me how to do this."

Jennifer Rothschild: Help me. I want to pray like you.

Sean Groves: Yeah, I want every -- what have you got? I want everything that you guys have.

I fought it with good food, with trying to just get out of bed and take a walk for ten minutes, everything I could. My wife wrote down Scripture and would just literally hold my hands in her face and just speak truth to me. And every time I said something that was a lie, that I was worthless, that I was stupid, that I just wanted to die, she would just tell me how loved I was, how God saw me, how God is still good. You're going to get through this. I'd rather have you broken than not have you at all. And we got through it. I've been back in that place a couple more times since then, but I have had no depression episodes. For the last 11 years, I've been depression free.

So it's what we've already been saying, you can't fight it alone. What I would want you to know -- and I didn't discover this viewpoint was so prevalent until this pastoral job I'm in. So often we think that this is purely a spiritual problem. And I just want you to know that God -- you are wonderfully and fearfully made and you are not just a spirit, but you're a body and a mind too. So we need to fight this spiritually, we need to fight this medically. You need a doctor speaking into this. You need community. You need prayer. You need Scripture. You need whole foods. You need exercise. You need water. You need sleep. Like, throw everything you've got at this thing. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm with you. And I'm glad you described that so eloquently. It is endogenous. It is a physical thing. And I think that's what threw me off, because I'm a happy person, very driven. Never had an emotion that I couldn't process, you know. And it hit me about seven years ago, eight years ago, and I couldn't function. And I didn't know what was wrong with me, and I did all the things I knew to do. I finally ended up at the doctor. And it was precious. This doctor -- and she knew what I did in ministry. And she wanted to give me a medication, and she could tell I was very hesitant. And by the way, medication is one of the ways God provides healing. It's not the only way, and it doesn't need to be the first way, you know. We need to give our bodies and our spirits and our minds a chance to kind of process.

But I got to the point where I did need a medication. And she could read my hesitation and she said to me, "Let me just ask you a question. If I told you something was wrong with your liver, would you hesitate to take a medication?" No. She said, "Well, your brain is an organ, and it needs help, so that's what this medication is for." And it was a very good experience for me. It took about a month for it to really work and then I could think straight again.

But the funniest part, if you know my story at all, you know the first song I ever played when I lost my sight, I played by ear the old hymn It Is Well With My Soul. So wouldn't you know the doc, she prescribed to me a medication, Wellbutrin. So then I was singing for a while [singing], "It is Wellbutrin with my soul, with my soul." And God used it. And, yes, I have not needed it since, but God used it.

So not every sad feeling is depression, and depression cannot necessarily be fixed by talking about your sad feelings. So we need the wisdom of the Holy Spirit and we need community, and often we need to just talk to a doctor.

Sean Groves: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Let's follow that -- we'll go to the other end of the pool, the shallow end here. So, Jennifer --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love shallow.

Sean Groves: -- who does your makeup? And I want to add also, you always look spectacular. Like, you look fantastic. So who is your fashion consultant and who does your makeup? And they asked, Does Phil do it?

Jennifer Rothschild: They do ask if Phil does it. Phil checks my makeup. But I put on my own makeup. I've done it since I was 15 years old. My mom taught me how to do it by counting. So I know, like, for example, how many times to brush my blush brush on my cheekbone. It all works, you know. So as long as I don't lose count, things are looking good. Okay? That's all I got to say about it.

In fact, a few years ago, I had just -- not a few. Ten years ago, I had gotten my hair cut. You know, I used to have a ton of hair. And I got it short and I could not fix my hair. And I was, like, overdoing it. I knew it looked bad. And so I had remembered a friend of mine was selling cosmetics and giving me free samples of eyeliners and lip liners. So I thought, you know, I don't typically wear lip liner, but it can't be that hard, so I put it on. And I put on my eyeliner. I thought I was looking real cute. I wasn't really self-conscious about my hair. So I'm leaving my bathroom to get to my kitchen exit where Phil's going to pick me up -- because I'm about to go speak somewhere. So I passed Clayton in the living room, and he was playing a game on the TV. He takes his eyes off the screen, puts them on me, and he says, "Mom, your lips are black." Well, I did not think it was as funny as you did. And so, like, I corrected him. I'm like, "Son, my lips are not black. This is called raisin lip liner. It is just more dramatic than you're used to." And he's like, "Okay," and goes back to Mario.

So Phil comes home and I scurry through the kitchen because I can hear the garage door. And I get right there to that kitchen garage door exit. I'm pulling it toward me as he's about to walk in, so we're meeting face to face. And he says, "Jennifer Rothschild, your eyes are flaming red." Clearly I mixed up the two. That's why it's super important that I stick with my system.

Okay, but I will tell you a few things, just a little aside. Phil's not here to brag on, but he -- so I don't know about y'all, if you figured this out, but your eyelashes get thinner as you get older.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm trying to do mascara, I'm like, "Where did they go?" And then I'm feeling here and I'm like [touches chin], "Oh, there they are." So anyway, I have started wearing -- do we call them false eyelashes?

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Fake false eyelashes. And Phil actually learned how to put them on. I was doing a video shoot and he said to the makeup artist, "Hey, can you show me how to do that?" And so he puts on my lashes for me. Isn't that sweet? When I'm on stage. Like I said, I'm happy to look -- no makeup at Target, but when I'm on stage, I try.

Anyway, so then the last part that you asked -- thank you for saying I look spectacular. I take no credit for it, because I have a fashion posse, the chief of which is here with me this weekend. And I tell her all the time when I come home -- people tell me, "You look so stylish." I'm like, "It's Kenzie. It's Kenzie." So Kenzie is traveling with me this weekend. She is 26 and so adorable, and she makes me look cute. So I always give Kenzie credit for my fashion style. So thank you to Kenzie. And she is too busy. Do not ask her for help. I am a full-time job for her. Okay? Yeah, so that's kind of how I do things.

K.C. Wright: As always, this was so practical, full of wisdom, and fun, I'm telling you. And I have to say, Tammy Trent is just hilarious.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is.

K.C. Wright: She's hilarious. If you don't follow her on social media, you're missing out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness, yes.

K.C. Wright: She's a hoot. Anyway, she makes me literally laugh out loud. She's a gift. She really is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: So you need to follow Tammy and Sean. They will make your life better and infuse your days with joy, I promise. We will have links to their social media, plus music and books at the Show Notes right now just for you at 413 podcast.com/284.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we will also on the Show Notes have a link to the Fresh Grounded Faith tour, as we mentioned earlier, so that you can find a time and a place to come join us in person. Because it really is rich and meaningful and full of fun, Bible study, worship. And it's just the real thing. Everybody's just the real deal. So I really am so grateful for my partners in ministry. Anyway, go to the show notes at 413podcast.com/284 to get connected.

K.C. Wright: All right. Until next week, find some people to Spill the Beans with. And as we heard several times today, we need each other. Remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Whispering) Especially if your friend doesn't steal your coffee.

K.C. Wright: Hey, speaking of being honest with people and coffee, I have to tell you. Do you remember the Fresh Grounded Faith conference I attended? I'm standing in line --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

K.C. Wright: I'm standing in line --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

K.C. Wright: -- and I'm talking to one woman after another who is loving the 4:13 Podcast. I'm meeting, I'm greeting, I'm loving, we're praying. Finally, thank God for one honest Christian who in the middle of our conversation goes, "Honey, no one else is telling you this, but I'm going to step in and tell you that at the very tip of your nose, there's a big ball of coffee froth." And I had been drinking my cinnamon dolce latte, skinny, venti, extra hot, extra sprinkles, and there's a little hole in the top of these Starbucks cups --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

K.C. Wright: -- and coffee froth had landed on the tip of my big bulby right pug nose, and she wiped that coffee off my nose.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that is my kind of woman.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Katherine Wolf at Fresh Grounded Faith Atlanta, GA [Episode 272]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name.

So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's time for some practical encouragement and some Biblical wisdom on The 4:13.

What inspires you? What has been the hardest lesson you've ever learned? Those are some great questions, right? Well, I'm in Atlanta with Katherine Wolf at a Fresh Grounded Faith, and those were just two of the questions that we answered. Author Katherine Wolf is a powerhouse, who lives life in a wheelchair due to a stroke when she was in her 20s. And that woman has so much wisdom and so much joy. We were asked about living with disability and if we ever struggled with comparisons because of it. Also, somebody even asked -- and you're not going to believe this -- about how to deal with teenagers who are struggling with gender dysphoria. Ooh, I'm just saying, these were some really sizzling beans that we spilled.

But that's not all. Former lead singer of Newsong, Michael O'Brien, is with us at The Bistro and, good news, he is going to end this podcast with a powerful song that you do not want to miss. This was one interesting, multi-textured, inspiring conversation. So get ready. It's time to Spill the Beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and Biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, my soul sister --

Jennifer Rothschild: Soul sister.

K.C. Wright: -- Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Glad you're here. I wonder if you're busy, because it's Thanksgiving next week and that's usually a busy time. But glad you've made time to spend 30 minutes with me and K.C. and some of our other friends who are going to be spilling the beans. It's going to be a really fun, good life-giving episode. So whatever you're doing, getting ready for the big holiday if you're listening here in America, I hope it's going well for you.

K.C., are you cooking this year? I know you have done that in the past.

K.C. Wright: Yes. I am the cook in the family. I love to do gatherings and I love making meals to make people happy. Now, last year I catered.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's the way I like to cook.

K.C. Wright: I took a vacay in my mind and in my kitchen and I said, you know what? I am going to buy Thanksgiving. And it was a terrible mistake.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, really? It wasn't that good?

K.C. Wright: The stuffing was terrible, the turkey was bleh. Everything was -- while you're eating it going, you know what? This food has no flavor and I'm not catering again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you are going to cook, then?

K.C. Wright: Well, I got to bring my stuff to it. Because I'm like, my food tastes better than this catering.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. I gotcha. I gotcha.

I remember a few years ago, I transitioned from doing the big ol' turkey to doing just the little turkey breasts. And if I had more people than could eat off of one breast, then I would buy two or three of them, whatever it took.

K.C. Wright: Hey, have you ever -- have you guys -- has the Rothschilds -- have you ever done, like, a Thanksgiving dinner where you've gone pizza or Italian --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

K.C. Wright: -- or Mexican --

Jennifer Rothschild: Have you done that?

K.C. Wright: No. Or Chinese?

Jennifer Rothschild: I have friends who do that all the time. They pick a theme.

K.C. Wright: Me too. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I'm sorry, I'm just a little traditional.

K.C. Wright: Me too. I'm turkey, stuffing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too.

K.C. Wright: -- taters, pumpkin pie.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I'm not going to eat that during the rest of the year. But I will eat lasagna --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: - you know. So yeah.

K.C. Wright: I only eat turkey once a year.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same.

K.C. Wright: Thanksgiving.

Jennifer Rothschild: Maybe I'll do it at Christmas too. Yeah, that's about it.

K.C. Wright: What do you do at Christmas?

Jennifer Rothschild: Either turkey or ham.

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I do similar meals, both of those.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because it just feels so traditional to me. It's funny. It's how we grew up, you know.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, it is.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. I think I've told you maybe before that it was Christmas, and Phil was supposed to go pick up the Honey Baked ham, and he decided he wanted to save a few dollars. This was on Christmas Eve. He showed up with a Boston Market rotisserie chicken. I thought I was going to kill him on Christmas. I was so upset with him. So it's been the family joke ever since, Mom is very serious about her meat on holidays. Do not veer from the menu. Anyway, I didn't kill him, obviously. I love him. And it gave us the greatest story to tell over and over and over and over.

Okay. Well, we're going to head to Atlanta for this Spill the Beans. But I got to tell you, we've got a treat for you. Michael O'Brien is going to end this podcast today with a song. And he's so gracious to always let me use his songs. This one today is called "The Solid Rock." You'll recognize the lyrics. This comes from his CD, "Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs," which is one of my very favorite. So stay tuned for the very end so that you can hear it, because you're going to want it. And you can get it. You can go to iTunes, Spotify, you can go to his website. We'll have links for you for all that. But anyway, I just want you to know you're going to hear from Michael O'Brien also.

So, K.C., let's get ready to spill.

K.C. Wright: Katherine Wolf is a survivor and storyteller and advocate and -- here's my favorite -- an evangelist. I love her heart. She's the author of several books, including her first called "Hope Heals," which she wrote with her husband, Jay. Katherine uses her story to encourage so many broken bodies, broken brains, and broken hearts. She and Jay live in Atlanta with their two sons, James and John.

Of course, Fresh Grounded Faith would not be complete with our man, Michael O'Brien.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. We always have Michael.

K.C. Wright: He is the man. Michael, we love you. You know him, but I will give a quick intro anyway to this man of God, this MOG. Michael O'Brien was the former lead singer of Newsong. He's an incredible musician, recording artist, singer-songwriter, worship leader. He lives in Virginia with his beautiful wife, which he loves so much. I love how he loves his wife, Heidi.

Jennifer Rothschild: He does.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love -- he talks about her from stage all the time. Yeah, Heidi.

K.C. Wright: Now, together let's do one of my favorite podcasts right now where we Spill the Beans. Pull up a chair to this conversation. You're going to love it.

Michael O'Brien: All right, this is to everybody here. What inspires you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, what inspires you? Do you have a good answer?

Katherine Wolf: Oh. Well, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. What inspires you?

Katherine Wolf: Like, I don't have a good answer, but I have plenty of answers that -- goodness. People who take hard life stuff and live well with it and you haven't bought into a lie that life's going to be good and there's no problems or pain. But people who say, no, there's pain and I can persevere and press on. And I want to be faithful in this story no matter what it looks like.

Jennifer Rothschild: I agree with you. People inspire me. People who are kind, people who do hard things. People inspire me. But also what inspires me is seeing the gift of God in people. Like, Michael, when you sing, like, that -- I'm like, he's not going to hit that note today, he's not -- dude, he hit the note. I mean, the beauty, the creativity. Just seeing the beauty of God in people when they use their gift, that inspires me.

Michael O'Brien: I'm going to say, obviously, especially today, just both of you. I've known Jennifer for a long time. I met her at an Extraordinary Women conference. And when I saw Jennifer and Phil together not on stage, like backstage, I was so touched by -- and I've always said this to them -- that they just have a beauty together. And just how Phil is with her and how, Jennifer, you are with Phil. And I'm just getting to know Katherine, and I've heard her a couple of times. And I think it's connected to what you said, Katherine, just seeing people with hardships glorifying God, that brings inspiration.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

Katherine Wolf: Well, I just have to add that -- I think I've done this Fresh Grounded Faith in Missouri, California, Alabama, and now Georgia, and this picture speaks deeply to my soul, because I know that a person experiencing the disability of blindness and a person in a wheelchair is this powerful picture for you of brokenness and wholeness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes.

Katherine Wolf: And this -- don't miss this. You know, I talked about not wanting to just be an inspiration. But if you are awesome -- because the truth is, we all need this. We need to know a lady who's blind and the lady who can't walk can give glory to God in their story, and that is inspiration.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so deep. That's beautiful. Because I was also going to add -- okay, but Lionel Riche and C. S. Lewis inspire me also.

Katherine Wolf: Totally. Yes, yes, 100%.

Michael O'Brien: (Singing) Hello. Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Hello.

Michael O'Brien: So this is to everybody as well. What's been the hardest lesson for you to learn and accept?

Jennifer Rothschild: The hardest lesson for us to learn or accept. I can tell you this. I think the hardest lesson I've learned is the one I haven't learned. I'm still learning. And this is so embarrassing to say it, but I'll say it. Humility. I still am always learning humility. And it's the hardest lesson because I -- man, can I stand with a fist. Man, can my pride just jump up and be in charge. And so that one is the one I'm still learning that is hard.

Katherine Wolf: For sure. I think I will be learning for life all about how I am both capable and incapable at the very same time, and that tension. And that is very difficult. We, in the Western world in particular, want to think we can have it all, do it all, be it all. And we can't. And we can do incredibly hard things because of Jesus and our story -- I believe that to the core -- but there are limits on our lives. And we want to think everything is available all the time, and it's very painful to say, no, it's not. And the truth is, it's not. It will be one day, but that's not today.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a hard good lesson.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: Mine is probably Ephesians 5. "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church." So it's a very high calling to not just serve your wife, but also in such a way make sure that she is taken care of not only physically, but her soul. And I think a lot of times we just think, hey, I'll take a bullet for you. You know, that's the physical side, you know, you would protect them from any kind of physical harm. But the spiritual side is much deeper and goes much -- there's a lot of roots to that. And so I'm -- to learn how to do that daily -- I have a very strong wife. You've met her, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm afraid of her.

Michael O'Brien: She's very strong --

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm just kidding.

Michael O'Brien: And she is learning herself to kind of -- the other day this is what happened. We have a song that we dance to every year. It's Celine Dion's Christmas song. I don't even remember the name of it. But any time it's played, we run into the room and we start dancing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Michael O'Brien: And for so many times, I've -- I mean, I've just been very -- not taking charge of leading her when we dance. And then this one time -- it happened this year, 2022 -- I just went in there and I led her. And she twirled and we danced and she's like, "What's happening?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Michael O'Brien: And it was just a picture of, "So that's what it's like."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: And so anyway --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Michael O'Brien: I know that may sound weird to you guys, but that was a big moment for us.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. This is a bunch of girls. We just love that. That was awesome.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, this is to you, Jennifer and Katherine. How did you adjust to living with a disability? Did you ever struggle with comparison or resentment?

Jennifer Rothschild: I -- did I ever? Yes. Yes, did I struggle with comparison and resentment. Not resentment so much; but comparison, yes. But here's how it played out in my life. Well, if a sighted woman can do it, I can do it, and I can do it better.

And that is so dumb, y'all. That is so dumb. Because what you just expressed is true. There are limitations. The thing is -- and I would assume you would relate to this. The person who lives inside my body is completely capable. Like, I could do -- I just believe, because of the way I was raised and the way I'm wired, I could do whatever the thing is. If I didn't know how, I would research it, I would learn it, and I figured out I could do it. But my body does not allow that.

And so the comparison thing, I think there was such an identity slam that came with it for me that, yes, comparison was a hard thing. I'm over it now because, no, there's a lot of things sighted people could do better. But here's the thing. There's a lot of things that blind women can do better than me. Why? Because we have different gifts, callings, and wiring. So that's cool.

So, yeah, it's not as much a thing for me anymore. I'm more competitive with myself than I am comparing myself against others. But, yeah, that was probably a thing for me a lot more early on.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah. I would say, yeah, comparison has been haunting. I can't do so many things that, you know, a healthy, able-bodied mother could do for my kids. I can't even drive a car. I don't know if I said that. So, yes, it could be horrific to compare myself constantly. But I feel like -- and because my situation has been so extreme, it's probably almost made it easier because it's like I'm not really wanting to drive a car. Like, that's not available. So it's helped some.

But I will say that I think there is such tremendous wisdom in not wishing for her story because we bought the lie that the grass is greener. Because the grass isn't greener. First of all, her life is probably a mess. But when I'm doing that, my grass is round and dying because all I'm doing is watching hers and not watering mine. So, of course, I'm like, I want her life because my grass is brown and hers is green. But, no, I can have the green grass, and it may look different than hers. And that's okay. I've got my lane and I cannot ever do her life, but I'm going to do a blessed Katherine Wolf's life.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right, girl.

Katherine Wolf: And I think that is a word for us all is we're never going to be this or that. But why are we trying to be?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Katherine Wolf: We're going to be who God made us to be.

Jennifer Rothschild: Besides, it takes a heck of a lot of manure to make some green grass.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah. Isn't that right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's just say there's some stinky fertilizer that goes into some green grass.

Katherine Wolf: That's the truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're welcome.

All right. Next?

Michael O'Brien: That's very inspiring.

Okay. When interacting with teenagers struggling with gender dysphoria, how do we as parents, grandparents, teachers, youth workers, et cetera, share grace while still enforcing Biblical standards? Example, restricting a girl, who feels like she is a boy, from going in the boy's bathroom.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, there are certain questions you get asked that you think, "I'd rather not answer," because the risk of getting a sound bite grabbed and taken and used against you is high right now. All right?

So the theme of this weekend is grace, grace, grace. And I felt like the Lord led us to answer this question, not because I feel like I have an answer. And maybe that's why. Because we do want to show grace. Yet Jesus was 100% grace and 100% truth. So what we as the body of Christ -- I believe our high calling is to extend the grace of Jesus without sacrificing truth. And if we really extend the grace of Jesus -- because someone who is going through what they are with gender dysphoria, there's usually a brokenness that is deeper than something that we can see. There is a great seeking and need there. So to show grace toward the seeking and the need hopefully will give us an opportunity for relationship. Within that relationship, perhaps we can be a voice that can encourage that person to show the same grace that they are being extended.

In other words, instead of perhaps someone who -- I get so confused with the terminology, so please do not be offended if I mess this up. A girl who thinks she's a boy and, therefore, wants to use the boys' restroom, whatever, perhaps we can communicate to that person with that confusion, could you please show the same grace to others. And if it makes the women in a women's restroom uncomfortable, because you were born a man, to be in that restroom, please extend the same grace to them that we are extending to you and use a different or a single bathroom.

You know, I think there's ways we can communicate and show grace. That doesn't mean we overlook truth and that doesn't mean we don't have boundaries. That is, we love each other well when we love each other with truth and boundaries, and that can coexist with grace. It's a hard thing. We need the wisdom of Christ and the love of Jesus.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah. Whoa, yeah, you said it all. I don't know what to add to that except cultivating an incredible amount of compassion in these conversations is so key. You know, I think as Christians, we really lose our audience when we start just making ultimatums and not looking people in the eye and saying there's got to be so much pain to this story --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there is.

Katherine Wolf: -- and I can engage this story well. God has equipped me powerfully to do this work of hanging in there with you. I love you deeply and I'm not leaving. And that is -- I think that is the work Christ calls us to, is to stay in hard stories and situations with our friends who may be experiencing a whole gamut of really tough stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's hard. Much grace.

Michael O'Brien: I would also just add that I think sometimes we can be so combative and we just fly off at the mouth because we see something on social media or whatever. I've been guilty of this myself. Doing life with people, whoever God has put into your circle, if you end up having somebody like that, to be able to do life with them. And the Word is really clear about how we're supposed to treat. It's with gentleness, with all humility -- the word you were talking about earlier -- with patience, bearing one another in love. It is much easier to say that than it is to walk it out with somebody. And I think the walking out process is the important one, because if they can see on a daily basis that you're hearing them, but you're also speaking truth and what the Word teaches about it, it's going to come across much more loving than it would be if I go -- and I just basically say it and walk away. So we can take great care when we're dealing with that situation. But like you said, don't forfeit the truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't forfeit -- and don't expect that just because you handle it right, that it will end well.

Michael O'Brien: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's the sad thing.

Michael O'Brien: And that's the other thing. Because a lot of times if you're really walking in the Lord, not everybody's going to like you.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it may not be -- right. They're just -- it may not be the answer they want, and so...

Michael O'Brien: Man, these women are obsessed with this.

Okay, Jennifer, this is to you again. This is a light question. How do you put on your makeup?

Jennifer Rothschild: Somebody did ask me with my story how I said I threw it up in the air and it landed on my face. I wish that's how I put on my makeup. No. My mom taught me when I was 15 -- when I lost my sight is when she had told me I was allowed to wear makeup. And so, of course, she didn't expect that I wouldn't be able to see then. But she came up with a system, and I still use it today. And it's all counting, so I know how many times to put my now bronzer and blush on my cheekbone, and where, how many count to do, and mascara. And it all works as long as I don't lose count.

Katherine Wolf: You're amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I won't tell you the story now, but you can read it in my books. I have lost count before, and the end is not a good result. But it works really well. The only problem is -- so, like, today I don't have them on, but, you know, your lashes get thinner as you get older. And I've been putting on mascara and I'll be like, Oh, my gosh, where did they go? And then I feel my chin.

So anyway, Phil, my stud husband, learned how to put on false eyelashes, and so he often will put false eyelashes on for me to give me a little bit of [clicks tongue and bats eyelashes] when I'm on stage.

Michael O'Brien: That's fascinating. Fascinating. Once again, Phil.

All right, this is to all. What verse speaks to your heart?

Jennifer Rothschild: What verse speaks to your heart. You got one, Michael?

Michael O'Brien: Oh, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, Philippines 2, Michael.

Michael O'Brien: I do love it because it's wrapped up in this humility thing. "Our attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but he made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, became obedient to death, even death on a cross. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place, gave him the name above every other name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue would confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I love that so much. That speaks to my heart, and it speaks to my heart when you quote it. Thank you.

All right, Katherine, I'm going to say mine just because -- I'm going first because I'm afraid you're going to take the same one.

Katherine Wolf: Okay. Okay, go ahead. Go ahead.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So here's what speaks to my heart. 2 Corinthians 4:16-18.

Katherine Wolf: Oh, I --

Jennifer Rothschild: See, you would have taken it. "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, inwardly daily we are being renewed. And our light and temporary troubles are working within us a far greater weight of glory. For that which is seen is temporary, and that which is unseen is eternal."

Katherine Wolf: And I can piggyback off of that and say one of my very favorite passages is just a few verses up. 2 Corinthians 4:6-9 says, "We are hard pressed, but we are not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; we are persecuted, but never abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. We always carry in our bodies the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus might also be revealed in our bodies."

Aren't we the team? Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Enough said.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah, that's it. I just hope you feel the magnitude of what just happened. Like, that's -- when a lady that's blind and a lady who can't walk share that they are hard pressed and not crushed and that what is outer is wasting away, that is some gold for your life. Take that home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Michael O'Brien: So good.

All right, Jennifer. If you had not become blind, do you think you'd be a teacher today? Do you think you'd do these conferences and produce such great Bible studies?

Jennifer Rothschild: I thought that was an interesting question. If I were not blind, basically would I be doing what I'm doing with the gifts that I have? You heard Katherine say earlier that sometimes your suffering is your superpower. I will tell you this. Without the thorn of blindness, I believe I had the potential of being a very isolated, independent woman who's going to get it done my way in my time. Because I had enough native gifting or intellect, I could have gotten so full of myself and satisfied with myself. And I do see blindness as this buffeting gift, this thorn that was a protection against myself. Whether God ever chose to use it to buffet my native gifts and refine them or not, it was his mercy toward me. Because people who are full of themselves are not happy people. People who are overly controlling are not happy people. People who are impatient are not happy people. And so in many ways, I cannot -- I do not understand the sovereignty of God, so I don't speak toward it like I do, but I cannot imagine that I would be doing what I'm doing today without blindness as being a pathway I never intended to walk.

Michael O'Brien: Katherine, your episode on She Reads Truth --

Katherine Wolf: Wait. I've got to say an answer to the other one first, though.

Jennifer Rothschild: Michael, she's in charge.

Michael O'Brien: Okay. Yeah, you got it.

Katherine Wolf: Yeah, yeah. No, I -- just really quick, I have to tell y'all -- this is just so cool. I from a very young age was wired to talk to anybody who would listen -- they called me Chatty Cathy for real -- about Jesus, hope, justice. I mean, I was talking about, like, the Civil Rights Movement to my dollies in my closet at age five. I mean, it was weird.

And I majored in communication in college. Once I had the massive stroke and became disabled, I could have seen all of those just talents, desires, passions go to the wayside. Like, why would I do anything like this with my life? My face is paralyzed. I'm not going to be on the stage. I can't even walk. You get it. And yet somehow in the -- I don't understand it, but somehow God has worked it out that these dreams that I dreamed as a child have full circle come true in my adult life in a completely different way than I ever would have imagined, that from the position of a wheelchair, which is the perfect place to speak about his strength and our weakness. FYI, I get to share the truth of God in the land of the living. It's glorious.

But that wasn't your question, and I'm so sorry, Michael.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it was such a good answer.

Katherine Wolf: I know, right? It's so cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: It needed to be said.

Michael O'Brien: We still needed it.

Katherine, your episode on She Reads Truth in August changed my heart. How do you live out Psalm 84:11 daily?

Katherine Wolf: Oh, my gosh, I love that. That's what I mean, like, all of you people just so tracking and touching. I've done a lot of podcasts. That's random. But I'm here for it and I --

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you remember Psalm 84:11?

Katherine Wolf: Psalm 84:11 says, "No good thing has he withheld from those walking uprightly with him." And that's super complicated, super complicated in all of our stories, because the way we understand God not withholding good things would be that our lives look really good, right? That I look good, I feel good, I've got the goods. That is the good life. So where's God? Has God withheld good things when people don't have that stuff? Like, is there goodness?

And I was turned on to a brilliant theologian from the 1600's named Sir Richard Baker, who wrote the following, and it's absolutely changed my life and understanding. That the truly good things of God can never be withheld because they are not things at all. They are peace of conscience, joy in the Holy Spirit, the fruition of his presence in this life, and the assurance of his face in the next. These things are the truly good things that can never be taken from us.

K.C. Wright: The hard things can be the good things for sure. This was one of my favorite Spill the Beans ever. Katherine Wolf, rock star.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: Her depth and her joy, totally inspiring. And I got to say, Michael O'Brien is the man. I am always challenged by his strength, his love for the Word, his love for his family, and downright humility.

So if you haven't read Katherine's books yet, you need to. We will have links to Katherine's books and Michael's music and, of course, Jennifer's books at the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/272. And you can read a transcript there as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Plus, we will also link you to the She Reads Truth Podcast that Katherine talked about.

But now we get to hear from Michael O'Brien. He is going to sing us out and remind you that no matter what you face or how you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength, because he is your Solid Rock.

Michael O'Brien: (Singing) My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness; I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus' name. When darkness veils his lovely face, I rest on his unchanging grace; in every high and stormy gale, my anger holds within the veil. On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand.

When he shall come with trumpet sound, oh, may I then in him be found; dressed in his righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the throne. On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand. All other ground is sinking sand.

On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand. On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand. On Christ, the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand, all other ground is sinking sand.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with My Crazy Friends at Fresh Grounded Faith Fort Worth, TX [Episode 267]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer Rothschild. You know, I love my audiobooks from Audible. That's how I'm able to read so many books in a year. If you've never tried it, you can get a 30-day free trial with no obligation. Plus you'll get a free audiobook of your choice that you can keep. So go to 413podcast.com/Audible to get started. And now the podcast.

What do you get when you put Annie F. Downs, Tammy Trent, Shaun Groves, and me at a bistro table in Fort Worth, Texas, together? Well, you get the craziest, most fun, deep, and inspiring conversation ever. Tammy spilled the beans about dating a younger guy. You're going to have to hear that. Shaun, he nerded out about a Hebrew understanding of a story in the New Testament, so the geeks need to hear that. Annie gave us a scoop on her favorite gospel and how to deal with loneliness. And we all weighed in on how to let go of hurts and disappointments. I'm telling you, this is one of the most fun, funniest, and life-giving Spill the Beans you will ever hear, so pull up a chair. We've saved a seat for you at the Bistro.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and Biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you truly can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, Jennifer here. It's my goal to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life. Me and K.C. are here in the closet. And this is going to be a great conversation, you're going to love it. But I have brought a treat.

K.C. Wright: Treat?

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, I wish I could share it with everybody. Okay. Well, and let me say this. I will share it with everybody. We'll have a link to it on the Show Notes. This is my latest obsession. And I just feel like if we're spilling the beans, we need to be spilling the beans.

K.C. Wright: I love it when you do things like this, because you have led me on to more products and candles and chocolates.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: I mean, I always love -- it's like -- Oprah used to have her favorite things?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: These are Jennifer's favorite things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Maybe someday I'll actually do a favorite things post.

Okay, so I just opened this. It's a box of cereal. I can smell it.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: It smells so yummy. Now, y'all know -- maybe you don't. You don't have to follow every obsessive detail of my life. But I am low carb. Okay? So I do everything low carb. Well, I found the best low carb cereal ever. I've tried them all.

K.C. Wright: Wow. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is my favorite. So, K.C., it's high protein, it's low carb, and it's high dollar, because they always are. I'm handing you the box, and I'm going to take a bite.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness, it does smell.

Jennifer Rothschild: Doesn't it smell good. Isn't this one maple? What is this one, cinnamon or maple?

K.C. Wright: This is -- can I tell them?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. The brand is Magic Spoon.

K.C. Wright: Grain-free cereal, and it's called Maple Waffle. Maple Waffle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I'm just imagining right now --

K.C. Wright: Oh, my word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: No, for real. This is --

Jennifer Rothschild: It doesn't have a bad aftertaste.

K.C. Wright: This is like Christmas.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Okay. So how much protein is in it?

K.C. Wright: Okay. Twelve grams of protein per serving.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's health food, that's what I'm saying.

K.C. Wright: Four grams of net carbs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Which is low.

K.C. Wright: And zero sugar.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: The white devil has been killed at last.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. Now, this will cost you your savings account, but it's worth it.

Okay, one last bite, because y'all don't need to hear us chewing.

K.C. Wright: Oh, man, those are good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: I'm taking some home for later.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can. You can. I need a love offering to pay for it, though.

Okay, so I just had to share those with K.C., and I thought, well, why not share it with my whole 4:13 family.

K.C. Wright: Now, what kind of milk do you have with that?

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't do milk.

K.C. Wright: Oh, you don't?

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I just eat it like --

K.C. Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Because I don't do popcorn or --

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I use it as, like, my little snack.

K.C. Wright: I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: But Phil does almond milk with it.

K.C. Wright: Okay, yeah. Curious minds want to know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. All right.

K.C. Wright: Well, I'm a huge, huge fan of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, now you know, my people. It is so yummy, seriously, I will have a link to it so that you can find it on the Show Notes. But I wanted to make sure I spilled the beans about that.

And since I gave you a scoop of cereal, now I'm going to give you the scoop about what you're about to hear. Okay? So this conversation that we had was in the spring of this year. Okay? So it happened to be right after -- I hate to say this, but right after the shooting -- remember? -- at Covenant School in Nashville, which is where Annie F. Downs lives.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I just needed to remind you of that context, because she's going to refer to that, or inuendo it, and I didn't want you to not understand what she was talking about. So that was right across the street from her, and very tender to her heart, but, of course, tender to all of our hearts. So I wanted you to know that that's what she's referring to.

But also, somebody in the audience asked a Spill the Beans question at this event about our 4:13 episode that I did with Max McLean. He was the -- you remember, the producer and star of The Most Reluctant Convert, one of my C. S. Lewis -- yeah, I, like, fan girl over him. Okay. Some of you already heard it because we had that episode during -- when I was in Italy, right? I think it was 256. So if you haven't heard it, go back and listen to 256.

Okay. But the story behind that was that I forgot -- or the person helping me forgot to press record when I had the first 52-minute conversation with him. It was a big traumatic moment in my life. And, of course, anything traumatic for me, I, like, spread the love, so it was trauma for everyone. Anyway, so that question was asked, and so that's what I'm referring to when I talk about Max McLean. I didn't want you to be confused. But you remember those days. They were hard days on all of us because that's when I was in Italy and K.C. was all alone, all alone in the podcast closet. He didn't even have Magic Spoon cereal to keep him content.

K.C. Wright: Nothing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. We're going to have links to everything you need to know on the Show Notes later, but let's get our conversation started.

K.C. Wright: And when you hear this, you'll want to come immediately to a Fresh Grounded Faith event, because these podcasts from Fresh Grounded Faith conferences, what we call affectionately as Spill the Beans, they are my favorite podcasts really. I love re-listening to them, because you miss things and you have to go back and hear different -- I love the different conversations and everyone at the table.

So pack your bag and come now to Fargo, North Dakota. Fresh Grounded Faith will be there on October 27th through the 28th. You can find all the info you need at freshgroundedfaith.com. That's freshgroundedfaith.com. And you can find all this information, of course, on the Show Notes too. Or if you are closer, come to Springfield, Missouri.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: And breaking news, I will be at this one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he will.

K.C. Wright: I am going to be there.

Jennifer Rothschild: You got to come see K.C.

K.C. Wright: I will get to hug you in person and love on you and thank you personally from my heart to yours for listening to the podcast. All right? So it is November 3rd and 4th in Springfield, Missouri, and I'd love to meet you. And Annie F. Downs will be there as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's going to be good. And by the way -- I don't know if you knew this -- Karen Kingsbury will be there also. Yeah, it's going to be a great weekend.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: All right. Well, we just need to get to this. Annie F. Downs is the host of That Sounds Fun Podcast -- which I love that name -- plus an amazing author and speaker. Tammy Trent -- love her -- is a singer-songwriter, author, and now the co-host of The Life Today TV show. And, of course, Shaun Groves, he's a worship leader, storyteller, singer-songwriter. And you know our Jennifer. So let's do this. Let's Spill the Beans.

Shaun Groves: Let's talk about Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

Shaun Groves: So, Jennifer, you really do have an amazing memory.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Shaun Groves: It's so impressive to me. So this isn't on the card, but I'm wondering if your memory was always good. But what's on the card is where... I'm sorry, I got the question in the wrong order. But I'm going to skip to it. So what are, like, three tips for remembering things, memorizing?

Jennifer Rothschild: This won't be very organized. But when it comes to memorizing Scripture, I never start with the goal of memorization. I start with the goal of understanding. Because I always think in general with memorization, whether it's a verse, whether it's a message, whether it's anything, you have to have a global understanding before you can have granule recall. Okay? So that's super important, understanding first.

And then the repetition of hearing something, or if you can see it, reading it over and over, or combining the two. I've also understood that writing something with your hand helps enhance your memory. But for me, that means typing it. I will type things out.

But when it comes to memorizing, you memorize between the punctuations. That's a way to phrase things, just like you would memorize a song with phrasing. But, like, even this morning, it was 2 Corinthians 12:10. "For Christ's sake, I delight in weakness, insult, hardship, difficulty, and persecution." See, I do my fingers I'm doing that in my head when I'm talking to you. And I've spelled it out, WIHDP. So I know it's W-I-H-D-P. So I do little things like that. I'll create mnemonic devices within verses.

Shaun Groves: But then I have to memorize my mnemonic device.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? It's hard. But, yeah, I do things like that. So I try to just come up with little techniques.

I will also put things on what I call a ladder, so that on every rung of the ladder is like a main point I'm going to make. And even if you notice when I just said 2 Corinthians 12:10, literally in my mind I will write those verses on the rungs of my ladder in cursive. So I'm very visual. And you can tell when I'm going through something that I've memorized. Often when I'm getting to a transition to the next point, I literally will kind of look up as if I'm climbing the ladder in my head to see what's next.

But it takes discipline. Don't think that, oh, she just has a good memory. Y'all, we all have the capacity for a good memory. It just requires intention, focus, and discipline. But you can do that. God has equipped you with an amazing brain, and I don't like it that women often don't regard highly enough their capacity for memorization and for intellect, because you got it going on.

Shaun Groves: That's good. That's really good. I'm going to go make some ladders in my head next time I have to speak.

So this is for all three of you guys. How do you let go of hurts and disappointments when you've experienced those? How do you let go?

Jennifer Rothschild: How do you let go?

Shaun Groves: -- of the hurts and disappointments?

Annie F. Downs: I think time is a healer, but it's a very unreliable healer without God. And so for me, it is a constant going back and letting go over and over again, and my grip is just less tight every time. But time -- I think time helps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because emotion fades a little bit with time.

Annie F. Downs: Yes, yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Emotion fades, yeah.

Tammy Trent: I'm completely with you, and that's exactly what I said last night. For me, like, time doesn't heal. I think it helps, but I think only God can heal.

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Tammy Trent: But even in my loss -- I'm 21 years into it -- I'm not stuck in any way. Thank God for that. But I still feel -- and I still have moments where I'm in the house that we built alone together, you know, walking up the stairs and just -- I'll see a picture on the wall and -- you know, or a memory or a card. I don't even want to start crying now. But -- it's the estrogen. It's the thyroid. Yeah, I'm going to pull it together. I have to make a joke to pull it together.

But I'll see something and I'm punched in the gut and I'm right back in that moment. And so I give myself permission -- I give myself permission to feel that, to visit that, but I don't camp there. I don't stay there very long. And even in that moment where I still feel the hurt or the sting or the pain, I still feel the grace of God too.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: So you can't have one without the other --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Tammy Trent: -- and survive it and to keep moving forward. If you just take the one, you're going to get stuck and you're not going to keep moving forward. So it's okay, I think, for me, even all these years later, to feel that, but I quickly turn to the hope that I have in Jesus and what I know to be reality, that pain is fleeting and it will not last. Joy comes in the morning, so it's not going to last forever. But what do I have? What do I have? We focus so much on what we don't have. But what do we have?

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word

Tammy Trent: What do I have?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, yeah. That's really good.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, Tammy, too, as you say that, I'm thinking, like, what do I do in a very practical way too? You say you shift your perspective to what I have. One of the things that I have done -- because sometimes it's -- okay, it's hurts and disappointment with living people that you have to deal with every day. Right? I had an experience with a human being in the past where there was a -- it was just an ugly situation, and I felt hurt, disappointed, unjustly accused, you know, bad stuff, right? It was very hard to let go of that hurt because I wanted vindication. Okay. One of the things that I did, the Lord led me to -- John Eldredge has an app called Pause.

Annie F. Downs: Oh, I love it. Every day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Every day.

Annie F. Downs: I do it every day.

Jennifer Rothschild: So do I.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so here's the funniest thing. He starts everyone -- he has this very soothing voice, but he has -- it starts with, "Jesus, I give you everything and everyone." Right? Well, it's our little joke with me and my friend, Paula -- because her son overheard it, and he goes like, "Mom, is he saying 'cheese puffs'?" Yes, cheese puffs. I give you --

Annie F. Downs: I give you everyone and everything.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you cheese puffs. So it's my little joke now, whenever I feel the hurt and disappointment, I'm like, "Cheese puffs," and that's my cue to, like, "Okay, Jesus, I give you everyone and everything." And it does, because it releases you from the burden of having to manage the disappointment and the hurt.

Annie F. Downs: If you want to look up that app, it's called the One Minute Pause.

Jennifer Rothschild: One Minute Pause, yes.

Annie F. Downs: And inside of it, John Eldredge has read a bunch of one minute pauses, but then you also have three, five, and ten.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: It is so beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Annie F. Downs: I do too.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Shaun Groves: That's good. Annie?

Annie F. Downs: Yes, sir?

Shaun Groves: As you have been reading through the Gospels this year, what story or passage has stood out to you? Is -- I'm so blind.

Annie F. Downs: Your glasses are literally right there.

Shaun Groves: I know, I know. Is there one --

Annie F. Downs: The Lord's already answered your prayer.

Shaun Groves: -- that just blows your mind each time you read it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Annie F. Downs: You know what's interesting is the funniest one that I did not know is -- there's a part where Jesus tells the disciples, "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees," and they think it's because they've forgotten to bring bread. And so they start whispering to each other, "Is this because we forgot the bread?" And Jesus is like, "No, it's not." So that one, every time we read it, we have to stop because we laugh every time.

Do you know, the first one that -- the only real miracle besides Holy Week that's in all four Gospels is feeding the 5,000. And so that is really interesting to me, that the only one that all four of them wanted to tell was that. And so asking -- doing the curious game of why, and what did they share in their retelling, and what's different in their retelling, why is that the one that they all wanted to tell?

Shaun Groves: Interesting about that passage -- 'cause I taught it recently -- is that there are two feedings. One's the 5,000, once the 4,000.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, the one's four.

Shaun Groves: In the feeding of the 5,000, they collect 12 baskets of leftovers, the number representing Israel. Jesus is the Bread of Life come first to Israel. But in the other feeding, there were seven baskets. There were seven nations in the land of Canaan. Seven is often the number of the Gentiles.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Shaun Groves: So it's this beautiful symbolism of God became bread to Israel first, but then also to the nations. And so just recently reading through the Gospels myself, it just hit me. I was like, why are there two, and how did I get this far in life not noticing that there are two?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's beautiful.

Shaun Groves: Why are they both there? Anyway, yeah, it's just amazing how this book can keep giving when you read it over and over and over again.

Annie F. Downs: That's it. The Bible is a universe that we will never get tired of.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Shaun Groves: Yeah. Sorry I got a little nerdy there, but I get excited about this.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Annie F. Downs: I do too.

Shaun Groves: So, Tammy, can you tell us the rest of the story? I don't know why it's in quotes there, "rest of the story." Did you mention the rest of the story? So what has God done for you since the passing of Trent? Are you married? Do you have children? Pets?

Tammy Trent: Great question.

Shaun Groves: Friends?

Tammy Trent: Yeah, no friends. You're stuck with me now. Annie's my best friend now.

Shaun Groves: You do have a stalker.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Yeah, you got stalker now. We're going to call it friendship. I'm interested.

Tammy Trent: I love it. Gosh. So -- yeah, you know, I have dated, which is good, because it taught me that I wasn't stuck. And that was really important for me. It took me about eight years, though, to do that. And I remember, I was on my way to South Africa to do a women's conference and I saw this gorgeous guy walk on the plane. And I was with Anita traveling, and we were both like, "Mmm, he is gorgeous." We were both single at the time. And 12 days later I was on the plane heading back to America, and this same gorgeous guy -- not a week, not two weeks, but 12 random days, he comes walking on this plane. And we were like, Rrrrrr -- He was so good looking. And we sat down in our seats and I -- before we took off, I was like, "I'm going to use the restroom." When I came back, he had arranged to switch seats with the guy sitting next to me. So now he's sitting next to me for his 15, 16 hours home back to Atlanta. And we were talking the whole time and I just -- he was a believer. We grew up in the same church denominations. We had a lot in common, a lot of conversation. He was just so good looking and --

Shaun Groves: Was he attractive?

Annie F. Downs: Yes, but did you think he was cute? That's the part I can't figure out.

Tammy Trent: He loved God. But anyway, he was so good looking, and so -- he's a Christian.

Annie F. Downs: I can't wait to hear the rest of the story.

Tammy Trent: He's a Christian, but anyway. He was so good looking and so I kept staring at his mouth.

So anyway, we get off the plane and so he says, "Well, I'm going to come to Nashville and I'm going to ask you out." And I was like, "Well, you know, I want to be open to this." And so we started dating. We dated for six months. They were truly some great times in my life, and it truly taught me that I could love again. But it's got to be the right thing. And I knew after six months, though, that this wasn't God's best for me. I mean, he was six years old, so it was really tough. It was a big age difference. He lived at home, he didn't have a car. Things got real tough. He was super young. But he was actually 26 years old, and I was 41 at the time and --

Annie F. Downs: Oh, girl.

Tammy Trent: Right? You know, I got it, Annie.

Annie F. Downs: She is a legend. She is a legend.

Tammy Trent: I am a legend.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. You, trophies for days.

Tammy Trent: I know. I was completely flattered.

Annie F. Downs: Twenty-six?

Tammy Trent: Yeah. He was super young.

Annie F. Downs: They're all cute when they're 26.

Tammy Trent: I know, right? I know. I'm like, I can do this. I think I can do this.

Shaun Groves: So uncomfortable.

Tammy Trent: Yeah, but -- yeah, so uncomfortable. But, you know --

Annie F. Downs: Wait. So y'all broke up?

Tammy Trent: I did. I broke his heart. But he was like -- a few weeks in, he's like, "I'm going to marry you. I know that this is God's will." And I was like, "I know that it's not." I was struggling with --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's hard.

Tammy Trent: -- getting older. There was a lot of things about our personality. So many things, and I just knew that I knew that it wasn't God's will, and at some point -- you can't keep giving somebody a false hope --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tammy Trent: -- so I had to let that go. And I learned from that, and I'm grateful for it because it taught me something. One, that I've still got it.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: That I am a legend.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, you do.

Tammy Trent: But that you can never settle for something outside of God's absolute best for your life.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: I was starting to do that and I could almost see my life changing in not the right ways. So don't let that happen in your life. And I learned from it and -- see, God set the bar high with Trent, and so I realized, like, unless it's another Trent in my life, or something better, then I have to wait on God. And I will always wait on God. I'm 21 years still waiting. But I'm not looking. I think there's something different -- let things happen in your life that are a great surprise rather than trying to force things to happen. That's the season I'm in. I'm not looking, but I have love. It just looks very different than what most people think it should look like.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good girl.

Tammy Trent: But we did make out and it was real fun. I can't blame him for wanting to marry me. You know what I'm talking about? I can't blame the guy.

Shaun Groves: I'm definitely not being paid enough to be here this weekend.

Jennifer Rothschild: Go ahead, Shaun.

Tammy Trent: I don't blame him for wanting to marry me.

Shaun Groves: I'm switching the order of the questions because this actually is connected.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, great.

Shaun Groves: Let's see if you can make this uncomfortable.

Annie F. Downs: Part two.

Shaun Groves: So this person is writing from the vantage point of after a divorce, but I think this is true for anybody who's experiencing singleness. So how do you deal with the loneliness? How do I go back to finding joy in the waiting? I like how you put that. That's really, really good. There's a difference between looking and waiting. That's really good. So I wonder if any of you could speak to that. How do you find the joy in the waiting and how do you deal with the loneliness?

Annie F. Downs: I also just want to give permission that looking isn't bad. It's your season.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. You know.

Annie F. Downs: There are seasons when looking for a job is the right thing to look for. There are seasons when waiting for the next right job is the right thing. So I am so with you. Seasonally you need to know is this a time when I am meant to invest with what I'm in or is this a time where I'm meant to look for the next thing?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word.

Shaun Groves: Yeah, that's good.

Annie F. Downs: And so there isn't a right or wrong. It's seasonal.

And I have found that loneliness doesn't seem to leave once someone gets married. My married friends are not un-lonely, they're different lonely. And so instead of trying to defeat loneliness, I've tried to partner with it and go, what do I do with it? Today I feel lonely because of this, and then I do something about the "this," not the lonely. The lonely's the thermometer; it's not the mercury.

Shaun Groves: Yeah, that's good. That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's exceptional.

Shaun Groves: That's really good.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I heard Angela Thomas -- by the way, I love Angela Thomas-Pharr. And one of the things she talked about when she became a single mom and she dealt with the loneliness, she said her most terrible hours -- and I'd love for you to talk about this too, because I just realized, Tammy, I think you've said something about this -- were at nighttime. And she said -- so she literally didn't give the devil a chance. She would take a Tylenol PM and go to bed early as soon as the kids did.

Annie F. Downs: That's it. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I thought what a practical way to deal with loneliness for a season.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. That's exactly right.

Jennifer Rothschild: What about you, especially early on, Tammy?

Tammy Trent: Yeah. Early on, same thing. I would do fine during the day because I could see., There was life, there was movement and sunshine. And when the sun would set, everything shifted and changed. It was just [makes slurping sound], went like that. So I made a conscious decision I'm not going to sit in that. What could I do? So I bought a gym membership and I started going to the gym every single night. When it would hit dark, I'd pack my bag and I'd go there for three hours. I'd work out. I didn't work out for three hours.

Annie F. Downs: That's a good choice.

Tammy Trent: I know it's hard to see. I mean...

But I'd go there for three hours. But then I would do the sauna and I'd do the hot tub, I'd sit in the steam room. And it was always amazing to me how people would walk in and you begin to talk. It gave me an opportunity when they asked me what my story was. Ask the questions. Don't be afraid to ask the questions. People want to be seen and heard, and in that your own healing starts to take place.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Tammy Trent: And so that's what I did every single day.

And then I'd have girls' nights out at my house. I knew enough to stay surrounded with really healthy- minded, godly women. And so I would invite women into my home, just 20 of us, and just -- some I knew, some I didn't. Bring a single friend. We would just hang out. So once a month I'd have dinners where I had a chance to care for other people. Because now that was gone from my life -- Trent was gone -- that kind of care and nurture, so I would nurture and care for these girls and just love on them, and that brought me back to life.

Annie F. Downs: That's really good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Super good.

Shaun Groves: As a pastor, I meet with a lot of men who are having a pornography problem. These are married men. And I've never met with one of them who has close intimate relationships with other men. There's some science behind this. It's not just my opinion and my limited observation, but that for men even, that addiction isn't primarily about sexual gratification, it's about connection and intimacy.

One of the things that I tell these men is, you know, tell me about your closest male friendship. And they never have one. And just to be the person who initiates, "Hey, let's go grab coffee." "Let's go play golf." "Hey, let's get together and watch this movie together," or bring all your friends and let's do whatever. To be the initiator, I'm leading to I'm concerned for the next generation, because we know that there's a lack of practice at initiating relationship and connection in the real world. That the connection over social media has really taken away from us the skill, the soft skills of simply being a friend, and I'm concerned about where that could go. So we end up with people who aren't really good at intimate connection with other human beings and then we bring that into a marriage. And I'm seeing people expect the marriage to fulfill that need, and one relationship cannot fulfill all of our needs for intimate relationship.

So I'm with you, Annie, that if you're a lonely person when you're single, you will still be a lonely person when you're married. And that manifests in all kinds of unhealthy ways. So learn to make friends. I know that sounds super simple and trite. It is life changing. Just learn how to have one close friend. Just one. Some people, like Tammy and Annie, need, like, 50 close friends, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's because there's so much to absorb.

Shaun Groves: There's a lot. There's a lot. You got to distribute it over many relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Annie F. Downs: It's my kindness to the world, Shaun.

Shaun Groves: Yeah, it is. It is. It is.

Annie F. Downs: Can I say one stat real quick, Shaun?

Shaun Groves: Sure, yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Barna does research on all sorts of things in the church, and their research on pornography is that 55% of women look at it or read it on a regular basis. And that's not out of the church, that's in the church. And so, yeah, while we're talking about men and pornography, I also, in a room full of women, want to say don't keep secrets. Don't keep secrets.

Shaun Groves: It's connected to a relationship.

Annie F. Downs: There is no sin that is just for men and there's no sin that is just for women.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Shaun Groves: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so here's one. What is your life verse? Do you have a life verse?

Annie F. Downs: I can read it. Y'all can probably -- I know you have it memorized, yours.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know. What is it?

Annie F. Downs: Oh, yeah, I meant yours. But, yes, you probably have mine memorized too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, I probably have yours memorized too.

Annie F. Downs: I know.

Tammy Trent: Annie's favorite verse is -- 'cause she's my best friend.

Annie F. Downs: Psalm 73:25-26.

Jennifer Rothschild: Is that about the portion forever, my heart and my flesh will fail?

Annie F. Downs: Yes, 100% it is, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Go ahead.

Annie F. Downs: I knew it. It says, "Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you. My flesh and my heart may fail, but my God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. That's beautiful.

Tammy, you got one?

Tammy Trent: I do. I tattooed it on my wrist. Jeremiah 29:11, "For I know the plans I have for you, plans to give you hope and a future." I did that after Trent went to heaven. And I remember I didn't tell anybody, and I didn't want to tell my pastor parents, and so I -- beforehand, so I sent her a picture and said, "Mom, look what I did. It's my life verse and I think it opens up a door for conversation with strangers sometimes." And she said, "Well, honey, I just have one thing to say to you. I hope it's your favorite verse forever, because you got it forever.

Shaun Groves: What about you, Jennifer?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because it's there forever.

Mine is -- it's been this forever. 2 Corinthians 4:16-18. "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we're wasting away, inwardly daily we're being renewed. And our light and temporary troubles are working within us a far greater weight of glory because that which is seen is temporary and that which is unseen is eternal." I love it. It's such an encouragement.

Annie F. Downs: What about you, Shaun?

Shaun Groves: Well, when God cast us out of the Garden and sent us to Tennessee --

Annie F. Downs: I was going to say, that sounds very personal. Wow.

Shaun Groves: -- I adopted a verse from Jeremiah 29, but it's not the one everybody goes to. So it's Jeremiah 29:7. These are the words that God spoke through the prophet, Jeremiah, to his people as he was sending them into exile in Babylon. He reminded them who they were, who sent them, and what they were supposed to do when they got there. So it stayed with me. This is good. So he says, "Seek the peace and the prosperity of the city I have exiled you to, that wherever you have been sent" -- whether they have good barbecue or not -- "God did the sending, and you are there to seek the peace and the prosperity of that place."

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Shaun Groves: So that's been really good for us.

So this question is for me. So how long did it take you to write "Welcome Home"? Well, I stole the title from Tammy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Shaun Groves: I wrote a song called "Welcome Home." I wrote that in 2000. What was the inspiration? And then they said some nice things to me. I really appreciate it.

Annie F. Downs: Can I read them?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, Annie, read the nice things they said to Shaun.

Annie F. Downs: "Your music is a blessing," two exclamation points and a heart. "It's my favorite song ever. I love the entire album. I was a young mother working on myself and it spoke to my soul. Thank you for that gift."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that, Shaun.

Shaun Groves: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So tell us how you wrote the song.

Shaun Groves: I wish it was a deep story.

Annie F. Downs: This guy traded seats with another guy on a plane.

Jennifer Rothschild: He was firming his butt.

Shaun Groves: So I was 26. I was on a flight.

Tammy Trent: I don't even -- I don't know. I don't even have any idea what that meant. I don't feel well, you guys. This ear is plugged up.

Shaun Groves: I met this lady and she'd written a song called "Welcome Home."

Annie F. Downs: That is so funny.

Tammy Trent: I probably should sit down.

Annie F. Downs: Dr. Phil is going to cancel this segment in the future.

Jennifer Rothschild: Seriously.

Shaun Groves: No. I actually was 26, and I was fairly newly married, and we bought a house. It was so cheap, but it was horribly decorated. There was just wallpaper on every surface that could take wallpaper. And so we were in there with the chemicals and the Paper Tiger and the whole thing removing that. And I don't know if it was the chemicals or the Holy Spirit, but I just felt immediately inspired. And I went into the next room and I had the chorus, I mean, the full-on -- the verse, the lyrics, and the music altogether.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shaun Groves: And it just all came out at once. We were in a sermon series at church about sanctification, how it's the process of God remaking your life so that you look more and more like Jesus in the way you think, feel, desire, believe, and behave. And I'd been thinking about that, and I guess it just kind of -- it took root. And so just all of a sudden -- and the best part is I got out of stripping wallpaper that day. It was so amazing. So I wrote a song that paid for new wallpaper and it got rid of -- I didn't have to scrape the old one off. So, yeah, that's what that was.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Shaun Groves: I really appreciate it. I don't make music anymore. I usually get asked at this conference -- I only come out of retirement occasionally when Jennifer calls. But other than that, I don't really do it anymore, so --

Annie F. Downs: We are worse for it that you don't make music anymore.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

Shaun Groves: Well, I appreciate that.

Annie F. Downs: Anytime you want to start again, we got ears.

Shaun Groves: There are younger guys who look better in skinny jeans than me, so I'll just let them do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: But the hair, Shaun, the hair.

Shaun Groves: But the hair. I understand. I understand.

So, Jennifer, did you get a chance -- I can't read. Did you get a chance to call Max McLean back? And if so, was he willing to redo that podcast?

Annie F. Downs: Oh, that story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I'm so --

Annie F. Downs: It plagues me as a podcaster.

Shaun Groves: It's so heartbreaking.

Annie F. Downs: It absolutely plagues me.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. It's painful. Well, I'm glad some -- whoever asked that, thank you, because I should have bragged about Max McLean. So, of course, when it happened, I called K.C. back, and called Paula back, and I was like, "You're not going to believe, this is the worst moment of my life," after it had been the best 52 minutes of my life. And both of them were like, "You need to call back. You need to call back." K.C.'s like, "I'll call him back." I'm like, "No. That's so indulgent, I can't ask." And Paula said to me, "Jennifer, if you had been the guest, would you redo it for someone?" I'm like, "Well, of course." "Well, then you need to ask." And that kind man was willing to do it a second time. I was so embarrassed. But he did it a second time. It was wonderful.

So you can check it out. It's on the 4:13 Podcast. Then I went to England. About two months later we were at a conference together, and I was like, "Hi, Maxie, it's me." And he goes, "Oh, yes, I remember you." I'm like, "Yeah, I bet you did." Anyway, I have such admiration for him. He's a true man of God.

Annie F. Downs: How different was the second conversation than the first?

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, the first one was a little more intimate. And probably it was the Lord's kindness in disguise, because only he and I would probably appreciate all the nuance that we went into. The second one was slightly shorter, and it wasn't quite as intimate, and I think that was better for the listener.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, it's like the Lord gave you the conversation for you and then gave you the conversation for the listener.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It was very generous.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. How kind of him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Very.

Shaun Groves: So this is for all of you guys. "I struggle so much with the routine and monotony of everyday ordinary life. I feel bored. I'm a mother of young children, I work part time. How can I find more fulfillment in things like doing dishes and changing diapers? I feel tired, and tired of all the same things."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, sweet thing. Well, first of all, let me just hit a couple things real quick. I feel "tired" is the loudest statement I heard there. Not "I can't find purpose" or "My routine is monotonous." I heard, "I feel tired." Because tiredness -- I can't remember who it was that said it, maybe Douglas MacArthur, fatigue makes cowards out of all of us. When we're tired, everything turns a different color when it comes to our view of life, and it's dimmer, it's darker, and it seems less purposeful. Trace the root of your tiredness. Sometimes it's you're not getting enough sleep. Sometimes it's you're not getting enough leisure. And sometimes it might be a situation that's maybe even chemical or endogenous, where you're literally dealing with a depression. So trace the root of your tiredness.

Secondly, if you can carve out five minutes or get an audiobook so that while you're washing the dishes you can listen to it, I might recommend to you Brother Lawrence's "Practicing the Presence of God." Because he, for me, helped understand the redemptive moments in everything we do that seems boring or dull, washing the dishes to the glory of God.

And then the last thing I will say before my friends give their wisdom here, I have a daughter-in-law who works ten times harder than me. She's a stay-at-home mom. And I know that she could probably feel that way too on many days. And I'm going to tell you from this side of the empty nest, everything you do matters. It may not feel fulfilling, but that doesn't mean you are not fulfilling a greater purpose that you can't see right now. Literally you are planting seeds, and you're never going to really see how the tree finally grows and what it looks like. That is significant purpose. And there's a lot of moms in here right now with an empty nest who think, man, I wish I had done such and such, I wish I had done such and such. Talk to that mama. She'll help you see there is purpose in everything you do. And I'm cheering you on. But I do want you to take care of you and trace the root of your tiredness. Those are some of my thoughts.

Annie F. Downs: Winter always ends. It always ends. Seasons always end. The earth is showing us in the physical what is true in the spiritual and emotional, is that seasons don't last forever. And so that's the hope I have for you.

I'll tell you, Jennifer, one of my pastors that speaks into my life, maybe a year ago told me about Brother Lawrence's book "Practicing the Presence of God." He said, "I want you to get the audiobook and I want you to listen every day for a month." And I thought, that seems terrible. And it's only a 30-ish minute listen, it's not a very long book, and it changed my life to hear them over and over again. So even if you get that audiobook and just let it kind of play while you're getting ready in the morning or on a commute or something, it's really impactful.

And one final thing I'll say is with what Nashville has been through this week, the one thing I would ask you to pray for the families at Covenant School is sleep, because none of the moms are sleeping.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course not.

Annie F. Downs: And what is already an incredibly traumatic experience is also now happening on a lack of sleep. Many of the families are sleeping in the same rooms with their kids. Everyone's sleeping in the same room, and they're just not sleeping well. And so when you fall asleep tonight, that would be the number one thing I'd ask you to pray for our friends at Covenant School and for the staff there, is that they would sleep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

Shaun Groves: This is so hard. Jennifer and I've talked about this. I [inaudible] people who are hurting face to face. And I just wish that I could sit across from you and to just be fully present and just let you talk and just ask, "Tell me about the most tired day. Tell me what's under that. I want to know more." And I say that to say I can't be that person to you today, none of us can, but find that person.

Annie F. Downs: That's good, Shaun.

Shaun Groves: I want you to have a pastor, a mentor, someone who's a few steps ahead of you in life that you can sit down with and you can just be this vulnerable with them and let them ask you follow-up questions to hear the longing and the loss underneath this question. You need someone who can apply truth more precisely than we can in this setting. But also I want you to find community. And I love that this conference has the Bible Study Connection. That might be an opportunity, a door you could walk through to community, to be known and cared for. And I do understand, because I remember our lives when our four kids were little, that you're like, "When do I have time for that?" And I can't answer that for you. That's different for every person.

But the last thing that I feel compelled to say is have you told your husband? And I know not every husband is going to be responsive and know how to respond. I just know for me, I really want to know. I really want to know when my wife is hurting, when she feels that she's not enough. I want to know. I want to serve her. I want to care for her, to give her that opportunity to flourish, to thrive. I want to be a part of that. I really want to be her partner in life. So if you have that kind of relationship with your husband, please tell him. Maybe that's the secret Annie was talking about. Maybe it's not a sin, but it's just a struggle --

Annie F. Downs: That's right. That's right.

Shaun Groves: -- and you could just let him in and tell him what's happening.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, that's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word, Shaun.

K.C. Wright: That was so much fun. That was ear candy right there.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was good, wasn't it? It's so great.

K.C. Wright: So real. And this is my favorite part, like I said, of Fresh Grounded Faith, when the team just spills the beans together with Jennifer. It's so cool. So if you're near Fargo or Springfield, come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Come on.

K.C. Wright: We'll save you a seat.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we will.

K.C. Wright: We got a place for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we do.

K.C. Wright: We will also have links to get you more information about Fresh Grounded Faith and all things Annie, Tammy, and Shaun at the Show notes at 413podcast.com/267.

Well, this one is a wrap. We love you, and we mean it. And remember that no matter how you feel and whatever you face, you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: See you soon.

Jennifer Rothschild: See you Springfield in or Fargo. We'll be the ones with parkas and gloves on.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Lysa TerKeurst at Fresh Grounded Faith Jackson, MS [Episode 261]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name. So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413 podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's time for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on The 4:13.

Hey, 413'ers, this Spill the Beans is live from Jackson, Mississippi with Lysa TerKeurst, and we were just sitting around the bistro table answering some really good questions. Lots of how-to's like how to forgive yourself, how to help a friend going through a divorce, how to set healthy boundaries, and how to know it's time to tell your story, especially if it might hurt someone. Hmm. See what I mean? So pull up your chair and let's spill some beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our friends. We're so glad you're here with us. We're going to have a great conversation today spilling the beans from Jackson, Mississippi. That's from a Fresh Grounded Faith event. But before we spill those beans, we're going to have to spill our own beans. So if you're new to us, I am Jennifer. My whole goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life. And that was K.C. Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy and also my dog co-parent. You co-parented Lucy with me.

K.C. Wright: I did.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So here's what we got to share with you guys. Remember a few episodes ago we told you that K.C. ended up adopting Lucy. She was so happy. In fact, before we give you an update on the Lucy saga, let me just let you hear when K.C., who thought he was only keeping the dog for a month, first got Lucy. You're going to love this exchange between the two of them.

[RECORDING OF KC & LUCY BEGINS]

K.C.: Lucy, are you excited to see Eliana?

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: Do you want to see Eliana? You miss Eliana?

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: You can't wait to see Ellie? You can't wait to see Eliana? Eliana loves you so much, Lucy. Yes.

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: You have something to say? Say it. Say it.

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: Ooh.

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: I know, you'll see Ellie soon. Ellie's going to take care of you for a whole month. A whole month. We got lots of treats.

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

[RECORDING OF KC & LUCY ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: You were clearly prepared to spoil the girl. Okay.

K.C. Wright: We spoiled the queen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, obviously.

K.C. Wright: I'll tell you what, I would love to post the email that you sent to me in preparation for the queen to live in our home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, we probably should do that.

K.C. Wright: Because, I mean, listen, this dog was royalty and it was an honor to have her. yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, okay. So on the Show Notes, we will post that email, K.C. Okay, so you'll need to forward it to me so I can stick it on the Show Notes.

K.C. Wright: I'll do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I want you guys to hear one more. Okay. So when I told you that K.C. and Ellie were spoiling Lucille, Queen Lucy --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- just listen to this at Vintage Coffee.

[RECORDING OF KC & ELLIE BEGINS]

Ellie: Come on.

K.C.: Jennifer gave us strict instructions to spoil her, and we go next level. We just went to a vintage coffee shop and bought her string cheese, because we love our baby Lucy. Uh-huh. We promised to only give her one a day. And we haven't been doing this every day, but Lucy Baby -- Lucy Baby needs a treat, like the rest of us. This is her new year. You know, we drink wine in the new year. This is her happy new year cheese. There you go. And this is why Lucy loves Eliana more than me. She follows Eliana around.

Ellie: Ow.

K.C.: But as you can see, your dog is well on the Planet Earth.

[RECORDING OF KC & ELLIE ENDS]

K.C. Wright: Well, here's the thing. I've learned this from you, J R. Friends don't let friends drink bad coffee. So I have an addiction to our local vintage coffee truck that's by my house. And what do they sell there? String cheese.

Jennifer Rothschild: So she gets the fanciest string cheese ever.

K.C. Wright: That's right. We would get our coffees in the morning and, of course, we would bring Lucy home a nice string cheese.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, all she got when she lived with me was Walmart string cheese.

All right. So you see Lucy has had the best life ever. So a few weeks ago, I was at a conference -- well, not a few weeks. Probably last week I was at a conference, and there was this Q&A time right before I spoke. And this dear lady, who listens to The 4:13, asks me: "I have a question. How's Lucy? How's it going with K.C.?" And I said, "Well, that's interesting you should ask, because I need to share with you something, so don't feel bad for asking." So we're going to share it with everybody.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So Lucy had her best life ever, didn't she?

K.C. Wright: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: She was so happy, like, three or four months.

K.C. Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then things started going a little south.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. I mean, we noticed that she was losing some weight and she wasn't able to, I don't know, make it outside fast enough. And I'm telling you, this girl, she was queen. She was potty-trained, she was our angel baby, we had a routine with her. But, man, that last month, we saw her becoming not what we, you know, welcomed in the home.

Jennifer Rothschild: She wasn't herself.

K.C. Wright: No, she wasn't herself.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it was a lot of stress. Poor, K.C. I get this email from him saying, I love you, I love Lucy, and then it's this emotional series of bullet points of just all the -- she's pooped on the carpet, I've replaced the rug twice. Anyway, it was terrible. I'm like --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: He said, "We've got to find someone else to adopt her."

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you kept her for a few days for me just to get my act together.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then I prayed that whole time, Lord, give me wisdom what to do. 'Cause I was afraid, based on what you'd said, that, you know, she might need to...

K.C. Wright: Well, she was an old girl.

Jennifer Rothschild: She was 14. Oh, no, she was 15.

K.C. Wright: We were believing God for a long life for her.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: And here's the deal. Ellie -- my 12-year-old, Ellie, fell in love with Lucy. Well, she was already in love with her when she lived here. But animals are our family at our house.

Jennifer Rothschild: They are.

K.C. Wright: I mean, I have an Australian Labradoodle and a rabbit named Leo. So, I mean, if I didn't live in a neighborhood, and I lived on a farm, we'd probably be like Noah's Ark.

Jennifer Rothschild: You probably would. Well, I will say this. When you brought her home -- because I hadn't seen her in a while -- it was very obvious that she was not long for this world. And, oh, you guys who've ever had to do this with an animal who you love and you're trying to make that hard decision, it became very clear. I knew when I saw her that she just needed to be relieved of her situation. And I prayed that Phil would feel the same way. Because we had already talked about it, and I was like, Lord, please affirm with his opinion. And sure enough, when he saw her, he said, "Oh."

So here's what I did, though, K.C. I just -- you guys may know this, but there are services that are offered where a vet comes to your home.

K.C. Wright: I didn't know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. This one here where we live is called Peaceful Crossings. I cannot speak highly enough of it. This vet was dear and warm and kind and loving. And, you know, it was still just a very hard decision, but she affirmed it was the right decision to make.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And anyway, I had her laying -- Lucy, not the vet. I had Lucy laying on my lap. And she even said, "Let's make her more comfortable." She put this fluffy pillow under her. And then she did this, K.C. She got a little dish and she filled it with that squirty cheese. And Lucy, who had no energy prior to that, like, went crazy sucking up that cheese while she gave her some shots. Anyway, it was the sweetest, most literally peaceful crossing, you know.

So, yeah, K.C. and I have decided -- this is not theological, it's just emotional -- all dogs do go to heaven. They do --

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because Lucy's there.

K.C. Wright: And cats go straight to hell, where they came from.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, some of the 413'ers --

K.C. Wright: I'm just kidding.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- they just got offended.

K.C. Wright: I'm just kidding.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know K.C.'s just being funny.

K.C. Wright: I'm just joking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. But anyway, it was sweet.

K.C. Wright: We got to laugh.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've got to laugh. But you know what that vet did also? She made a little mold of her paw print and gave it to us.

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's precious.

K.C. Wright: That's beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it was a -- y'all know who have done this, it is a hard thing. But now K.C. and I, we have co-parented Lucy. She has gone to the next doggy world and we miss her, but it was...

K.C. Wright: And Jennifer, you know, you had warned me that this might even happen on my watch.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: You know, you had it prepared because of her age.

Jennifer Rothschild: She's 15.

K.C. Wright: And she had --

Jennifer Rothschild: Shih Tzus don't live for forever.

K.C. Wright: That's right. But anyway, it was just so sad, y'all. Because when I picked up Ellie from school, every single day she gets in the car, it's the same thing. "How's Brennan? How's Lucy? How's Leo?" Okay, this is my daughter, the animal lover. And so I had to tell her that Lucy moved to heaven and received her golden tail.

Jennifer Rothschild: She did.

K.C. Wright: And I believe that we'll see Lucy again. She was a good girl.

Jennifer Rothschild: She was a good girl.

K.C. Wright: I miss scratching her belly and her little ear scratches and -- she's so cute. And she got along with Brennan well and it was an honor hosting her. I didn't know that we were like a Hospice.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. You were.

K.C. Wright: I didn't know that. Because I had planned to keep her forever until she moved to heaven. I thought we'd have her for a couple more years.

Jennifer Rothschild: I did too, quite honestly.

K.C. Wright: But then I had to email you and say we've got issues. Something's going on. And then the vet confirmed it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It was the hard right thing to do. But you were so good with her. Oh, my gosh. Lucy, who I thought was just tired, she moves in with K.C. and she, like, comes back to life and she's, like, got a crush on K.C.

K.C. Wright: I got to tell you, though. My forever stamp of a memory is now implanted in my mind. When I dropped her back off here, how she walked away from me in this final prance. And she looked back and did one last prance, and it was like, you know what? I knew if I pooped enough in your house, you'd bring me back home. It was one more I gotcha.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what? I did not tell you this, but just for the record.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: She had been home maybe an hour and she had diarrhea in our house too.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, see?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I know. So I felt so bad for you.

K.C. Wright: And that was not normal.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

K.C. Wright: So that's why we had to get the vet.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, she was not well.

K.C. Wright: No, that was not normal.

Jennifer Rothschild: But anyway -- so I think she's somewhere with the Apostle Paul right now begging him for string cheese. I can hear it now. Anyway...

All right. So that has nothing to do with our conversation.

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: But when friends spill the beans, you get it all.

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So this that you're about to hear was when we were in Jackson, Mississippi. But I will tell you guys -- heads up -- I'm about to be in Plant City, Florida, for a Fresh Grounded Faith. Annie F. Downs is going to be there, and it's September 22nd and 23rd. So we'll have a link to it on the Show Notes, or you can go to freshgroundedfaith.com and find out how to get tickets. So if you're anywhere close by, please come. It's going to be so good. Fresh Grounded Faith is just always meaningful and fun. And, in fact, at this one that you're about to hear in Jackson, Michael O'Brien was there also. He was leading worship. And actually, his will be the first voice that you'll hear when we go there live.

So K.C., let's introduce Michael and Lysa.

K.C. Wright: Yes. You get to hear Michael all the time when we have a Spill the Beans, so you already know and love him. But I'll give a quick intro here. Michael O'Brien was the former lead singer of NewSong. I used to play NewSong on the radio for years.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: He's an incredible musician, singer, songwriter, and worship leader, and he's married to his beautiful wife, Heidi.

And we know you also know Lysa, but I'll still give an official intro for her. Lysa TerKeurst is President of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the best-selling author of over 20 books. She's a mom, podcaster, and she lives in beautiful North Carolina now.

So let's spill the beans. These are my favorite podcasts, by the way. I love Spill the Bean podcasts. So here we go.

Michael O'Brien: All right. Jennifer, do you think you would be doing Bible studies and conferences if you hadn't become blind?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't know what I don't know. I can assume, based on what I know of myself, my -- before I lost my sight, my goal was art. And I probably did have potential there. But I will also say this. I have a very strong will, and maybe a defiant streak and a high independence streak, which under the submission of Christ have served me well with blindness. But blindness became one of the ways God used it. It was kind of as a bridling effect for me, that all those things that could have become great liabilities actually were used to serve. So I'm not sure that I would be doing what I'm doing, because I could have just become so intensely independent and full of myself that I may have short-circuited a greater plan, and maybe God's mercy was in the form of blindness. I don't know. I don't know. But I don't know what I don't know, and so I trust God's sovereignty that this was his plan and his purpose.

Michael O'Brien: I've always said that Jennifer sees things way more clearly than some of my sighted friends.

Okay. How do we support -- Lysa, how do we support our Christian friends going through divorce?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Well, I alluded to it in my last session, that a divorce is really the death of a marriage. And that's really what I call my divorce, the death of my marriage. And so, you know, how you support a friend in grief, when they've lost someone, is really how you should support them when they experience the death of a marriage.

I think a couple things. One is it's not ever helpful to try to figure out why the divorce happened. And I think sometimes people want to, like, process that with a friend to try to help them figure out. It's really not going to be helpful unless they bring it up and they want to process it.

The other thing that I would say is pray that that friend -- first of all, I would say pray more words over that friend than words you speak to that friend, because prayer is really that important. But the other thing is pray that they can find some friends who are walking the same road that they are. I have three friends that are -- they have tragically walked through pretty much the same thing as me and -- you know, I'm a little ahead of them, but we all get together and we are our support system. I think one hard thing is when you go through a divorce, there's these little moments that happen that are just -- they catch you off guard and they're just overwhelming. For example, when I went to the doctor and I had to put on my form -- it says, "Married," "Divorced," "Single." And I was like, "Ugh." So, you know, I had to circle "Divorced." And then it says, "Emergency Contact." And I don't know why, but that just about sent me over the edge. And I just sat in the doctor's office and I thought, I don't have my person anymore.

And so these three friends became my people. We track each other. We all have started going on dates. I won't give any information about that. But we are a tremendous support system. We check in before the date, we check in during the date. We have threatened to come and spy, like, be in the restaurant to rescue. But it's so helpful to have that. So if you are a friend who has not been through a divorce, do pray for some friends in your friend's life that have walked through that.

And the other thing is, you know, when someone loses someone to a death, you do get casseroles, you do get help. People know to practically support you. And I would say take your friend a casserole. You don't even have to have a conversation. Just ring the doorbell, Here, here's some toilet paper -- I know you'll need that -- and some paper towels and a casserole, and I love you. And you would be surprised how much that practical help goes a long way.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. That's good.

Michael O'Brien: That's good stuff.

So -- this is a tough one. I destroyed my marriage. Had an affair two years ago that lasted for several months. My husband says he has forgiven me, but I can feel the resentment and I know he doesn't look at me the way he once did. How do you find grace and forgiveness for yourself when you have hit the self-destruct button on your marriage and you're left with pieces of what once was?

Jennifer Rothschild: Whoever wrote this question, we really do feel your heartbreak on that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the heartbreak. There is grace and there is forgiveness. And sometimes -- this is just a thought. Sometimes we assign to others what we're really feeling ourselves. So perhaps if you are really struggling with self-loathing or a lack of forgiveness, it could be that you are assigning that to your spouse. Perhaps he really legitimately has forgiven you, and you are so -- it's so difficult for you to forgive yourself that you're assigning that same resentment or lack of forgiveness to him. Maybe. It's just a thought.

But I do know this. I've never had that situation, and I can only imagine -- I've done other things in my marriage that I have felt so guilty about and I wish I could erase. And when we can't erase something, it's so hard to sit with something, because this forgive and forget is a bunch of crock. There's only one perfect forgetter, and it's God, and he has washed that sin away. So it might be the 70 times 7 forgiveness thing that you have to do every day for yourself. And then try to believe that what God said is true and what your husband said is true, unless your husband says it is no longer true. But if he says it's true, it would honor him best for you to believe it's true and live like it.

Lysa TerKeurst: One thing I'll add that my counselor said -- that was really good, Jennifer, thank you -- for every rip, there needs to be a repair. And I like that, because I think as you become aware of maybe something that has been ripped in your relationship, it's good to pray and ask God, like, how do I repair this little rip? I may not be able to on the macro level fix everything today, but could I tweak this? Could I do a repair right here? Could I say something kind here? Could I give him some reassurance right here?

The best thing that -- when my ex-husband and I were in a season of what I thought was going to be reconciliation, some of the best advice that he was given is that when I had questions -- so he's the one that had the affair, and so I'm the one now with the trust issues. So when I would have questions, the best thing for him to do would be to say, Of course you have that question, of course you feel that way, of course you want to look at my phone, instead of getting defensive. Because if he got defensive, that would tell me that something was up again. But if he was really humble and kind about it, that would say he's still in that soft-hearted place.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Michael O'Brien: Well, y'all don't know my story fully, but there were breaches in our marriage. And to be -- I'm kind of in this lady's place right here. Or I was for quite a long time. And I had expectations. I wanted things to happen quicker, forgiveness. I knew that God had forgiven me, because I really believed that I had a godly sorrow, that it wasn't, hey, I just got caught doing something. However, my spouse, my wife, it was taking time to build the trust back up. And, yeah, there were some really difficult conversations and difficult statements made, one being, "Are you in Christ?" And at first, I wanted to be offended, but then I understood.

So there's just got to be a lot of understanding, patience, a building back of trust, opportunities to build that trust back -- what Lysa just spoke about -- and just a tenderness and just understanding that when you sin against somebody that you love, it's devastating. It's deep. It's not, oh, you know, hey, give it a week and she should be all right, or give it a week and he'll be all right. There is years. It took me years to build that trust back up. And I can tell you that we are, by the Grace of God -- if we're going to boast, we boast in the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Michael O'Brien: It's only by his grace that we are still together. And she had every right to leave. I mean, it's tough for me to say that because, you know, you're admitting to -- and y'all don't know all the details, but there's no justification of it. When you fail somebody that you love, you've failed them. But first and foremost, as David said, "I've sinned against you and you alone, God." And then there's the connection of the people that you've sinned against, that you have to rebuild that trust, and it takes time. It just takes time, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Lysa TerKeurst: My counselor also said -- first of all, thank you, Michael, for sharing that. I know that you just blessed a lot of people to have the ability to hear a tender man's voice. So thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Lysa TerKeurst: My counselor said trust is built time plus believable behavior. So it is going to take time and it is going to take believable behavior.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. That's so good.

All right, Jennifer. How do you do a public teaching session without notes? Do you have prompts in your ear or is it memorized? You always sound so fresh and speak from your heart. How do you keep it all straight?

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't have anything in my ear telling me anything. But I spend a lot of time visualizing what I'm going to speak about. I do memorize Scripture. But I visualize my message in my mind. I have my main points that I'm going to make. I laughed when you said you couldn't remember the word "ladder," Michael, earlier, because I do create a ladder in my mind. And underneath the first rung of the ladder is how I'm going to introduce. And I'll use pictures if there's pictures I can use. First rung of the ladder will always be my first point, and I usually put the Scripture next to that in my mind's eye.

So when I am sharing, often, if you really watch me, when I'm getting ready to transition up the rung of the ladder, I will literally lift my eyes up, like I'm looking up to see what's next. And so I don't memorize verbatim because I also want to just be able to know the audience and trust the fluidity of the Holy Spirit's leadership, but I have my main things that I know I'm going to hit. And in between the rungs of the ladder, it may vary a little bit.

But, yeah, that's how I do it. It's just -- it does take a little bit of discipline, but it is possible for everybody. You don't have to be blind to be able to do it, I promise.

Michael O'Brien: All right, Lysa. My adult daughter has set boundaries with me and, number one, I'm heartbroken. And number two, she won't communicate with me why or what I've done. What do I do?

Lysa TerKeurst: That's really tough. And I've had that situation in my life where someone I love very much set a boundary, which basically meant that they were shutting me out. And that's not a boundary.

You see, a boundary -- what a boundary really is, a boundary is an effective communication tool. And the communication tool of a boundary is -- remember, we put a boundary on ourself. And the communication tool for the boundary is for you to be able to establish what you will and will not accept, what you can and cannot give, and what is and is not acceptable. It's really that simple. I mean, it's very hard to do, but it boils down to it's a communication tool. And when you shut the communication off before attempted conversations have been had to establish smaller boundaries -- you know, we don't want to take leaps to, like, access zero. So when that happens, that's really, really hard. And it's usually an indication that there's a tremendous amount of hurt.

And so if this was my daughter, I'm not going to give her a lesson or try to school her on healthy versus unhealthy boundaries. I'm not going to do that. But as appropriate, if she would give me a little tiny window, I would just pour grace and love and understanding. And one of the best things to say to someone who's so hurt that they've shut you out is, "Help me understand and I promise I will listen."

So I pray that you do have just somehow a little sliver, a little opening, a little something. And I think just ask God for that. And if it's not there now, don't feel like -- you know, this is one day, it's not forever. And so this is a part of your story, but it doesn't have to be the whole of your story. So I would ask God for a sliver, just the tiniest little bit, and enter that place in with, "Help me understand, you know, and I promise I will listen."

Jennifer Rothschild: Good. Good advice.

Michael O'Brien: Two more here. I'm a pastor's wife and was a pastor's daughter. Protecting my family is very important to me. How do you know when it's safe and important to share your testimony if it could ruin your loved one's life?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's how you know. If it's going to ruin someone's life, then no. Here's what I mean by that. I just interviewed Beth Moore on my podcast, and she just came out with her memoir. And she talked to me about the -- knowing it was okay to write it now, the timing. And she disclosed a lot about her own past, which if she had shared earlier would have ruined someone. She shared some things about her husband, with his complete blessing; whereas in the past if she had shared, it would have ruined him.

So there may be a time when it is appropriate, you know, because of maturity or seasons, but there may be a time it's never appropriate. And I guess what I want to say to the sisters in Christ, we don't have to tell everybody everything for Jesus to get glory. We just don't. And there are times when you can be honest without being thorough, and that's totally legit. You know, sometimes we think only the big drama stories are the ones that are effective for Jesus. No. Your authentic well-lived story with discretion is also very effective for Jesus. So if you think it's going to ruin somebody's life, then that's your red flag that it, yes, will ruin someone's life, so it's not time. That's my thoughts.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, that's good.

Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you, Jennifer.

I would also say I knew when it was okay for me to share just some context of what I was walking through when I was more eager to share the transferable wisdom that I gained in the situation and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Not just the story.

Lysa TerKeurst: -- and not just the story. And I've -- I mean, people know what I've been through, but there's no details. And the main reason is because there's a big difference between privacy and secrecy. Secrecy -- like, I'm not keeping secrets from my audience by not sharing the details, because secrecy is for the purpose of hiding something so bad behavior can continue. That's not what I'm doing.

Privacy is withholding details for the sake of healing. And I want my family to be able to heal, I want my ex-husband to be able to heal, and so I provide the bare minimum context. But the bulk of my books, the bulk of my speaking, it's not details. Details are like sugar. It's not really going to nourish anybody's soul.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no.

Michael O'Brien: That's all good. I don't need to add anything. I -- yeah.

So let's just go to the last question. What's the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Finally we're lightening up around here. Mine, eighth grade. I was just beginning to shave my legs. And I have very thick hair. On my legs also. And so we were driving from Miami to North Carolina, and I decide for those three days I'm not going to shave my legs. Well, by the time I get to North Carolina, it's very Sasquatch.

And so we got to the camp that we were going to a little late, so my brothers and I head straight up the mountain to recreation. And they had split us up into different groups. And I had never met these teenagers before. And so they were playing this game called People Passer, and all of the students -- there were like 40 in our group. And so 20 stand on one side, and 20 stand on the other, and they're fingertip to fingertip, you know, because they're going to pass a person. And whichever team could pass their person the fastest was the winner.

Well, I happened to be tiny at the time, and so I lay on my back and everybody's passing me along, with my little short shorts in 1978 and my hairy legs, and every student is making a comment, "Ouch. Don't you ever shave your legs? Owe. This is so gross." It was horrible. I had to spend the whole week with them. It was awful. So that definitely has been my most embarrassing -- like, it impacted me so deeply, I never -- I shave my legs every day, hair or not.

All right, Michael, finish us up.

Michael O'Brien: It was a place called The Rusty Bucket. South Carolina. Small event, outside, inside. Very hot, summer. I head down there, park my car in an alley, go get a sound check. The guy brought me in, was very excited that I was there, and he gave me a T-shirt that says, you know, "I Sang At The Rusty Bucket," or whatever. He said, "Do you mind wearing this?" I'm like, "Sure." I mean, nobody was around except the sound guy, and so I took the shirt off, put my shirt on. And I realized -- you know, being a -- I'm a married man, and so I want to make sure I matched and -- I wouldn't want my wife to be upset that I didn't match. And so my pants did not match the shirt, so I was like, okay, well, I'm going to go into the alley -- and there's no bathroom in the area -- and I was just going to do a quick change. That was it.

So I go into the alley, I set everything up. My van door's open, and the alley's over here. I do the final check. I look around, nobody's there. My pants are there. I pull my pants down, I grab my pants, I pull -- and I look over, and right in that moment a 16-year-old girl, her mother, and her grandmother all turned and was walking up on me. And really did that thing that they do when you're like, "Oh, oh, oh," like that, and pretended like they didn't see. And it was the wife of the guy who brought me in. They were bringing me lunch. And I had to sit in a room with all three of them and have lunch while the 16-year-old never made eye contact. Not once. She never looked at me.

Jennifer Rothschild: She had seen enough. Sorry. I love you, brother.

All right, the beans have officially been spilled. Thank these guys.

K.C. Wright: I love it when we just get to talk about the stuff that matters. That is what Spill the Beans is. And it's always so good. It's always so life giving and, what I love, practical.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right on. I agree.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that means you need to find somebody, our friends, who needs a casserole. Okay? It soothes and ministers, no matter what situation a person's in. Okay?

By the way, you can find Lysa's books and Michael's music on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/261.

K.C. Wright: So many times when I listen to the podcast, J.R. or a guest will drop a golden nugget. It's a word that I need in that time. And I love that we have the complete transcript at 413podcast.com/261. You'll find the transcript there so you can read all the wisdom you just heard.

All right, our friends, this one is a big ol' rap. So this week, you find somebody you can spill the beans with. All right? We need each other. And here's truth. We are better together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: And remember, no matter what you face or how you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: I miss Lucy.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: Thank you for the honor of allowing us to have your queen diva in our homes and hearts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you treated her like the queen she was, that's for sure.

K.C. Wright: I did pray for you because that was your family dog.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: And she moved to heaven. But it was time.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was.

K.C. Wright: It was time.