4:13 Podcast: Can I Chill Out About What I Eat? With Leslie Schilling [Episode 287]

Leslie Schilling: Even in the health profession, they just don't get it. They're like, oh, let yourself go. And so it's kind of a play on words of like, you know what? We are letting ourselves go. We're letting ourselves go to a dinner party and not worry about what we're eating or not eating or what other people are eating. We're letting ourselves go buy clothes that fits our very good now body, because being comfortable in our clothes helps us move about the world and have relationships and connections. We're letting go of talking negatively about food or our bodies, because the little ears around us don't need to carry that their whole lives. We're letting go so we can enjoy the beautiful gift of food and feeding ourselves to connect with other humans and to leave a legacy that does not include passing down diet culture.

Jennifer Rothschild: Diet culture is everywhere. It lurks in schools, medical offices, and even in our churches. We are even sold well-meaning messages wrapped in Bible verses that are actually rooted in the diet culture. It's only when you begin to see diet culture's lies that you can fight back, build resilience, and trust your divine design.

Well, today, dietitian and nutrition therapist Leslie Schilling will help us understand diet culture myths. She's going to help us fight the lies we've been told and discover the truth about health, well-being, and how God sees us. So get ready to get a fresh perspective. Here we go.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, our friends. We're so glad you're with us. Me and K.C. are in here in the closet. Little warm in the closet this morning.

K.C. Wright: A little toasty.

Jennifer Rothschild: A little toasty. Maybe it's because we've had too much coffee.

K.C. Wright: Uh-huh, facts.

Jennifer Rothschild: But listen, y'all, we are so happy that you are in here with us and we get to be a part of your day. Thank you. I'm Jennifer, and I'm just here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. Of course, that was K.C. Wright you just heard from, my Seeing Eye Guy. And it's just two friends and one topic and zero stress. So if you heard that intro and you're feeling a little stressed, oh, no, no stress for you.

K.C. Wright: No stress here.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is going to be such a good perspective. You're going to find some real freedom today.

But before we get to Leslie's conversation, I realized this morning when I was going through some stuff from last fall -- I never told you something, K.C.

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So right before we started this, you know, I told you to look for that one podcast review. Okay, you got it, right? Okay, I'm going to ask you to read this review, and here's why. Because last fall -- I can't believe I forgot to tell you this -- I was at an event -- okay? -- a Fresh Grounded Faith in Plant City, Florida. Well, right before I had gone to that event, this review had come in. Okay. So, y'all, I'm talking many months ago. All right? So, K.C., will you read this review that I read right before I went to the Plant City Fresh Grounded Faith.

K.C. Wright: "Jenn, thank you for your heart for the Lord. I had the opportunity to hear you at Fresh Grounded Faith in Plant City, Florida, quite some years ago, and loved your message back then, but only more recently got in on all your podcasts and social media, where I basically stalk you."

Jennifer Rothschild: I thought that was funny.

K.C. Wright: "And I just soak up the love and encouragement your heart pours out with each fresh cup of regular Joe." And there's a little coffee emoji with a bunch of hearts. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

K.C. Wright: She said, "I love the 4:13 Podcast and your life verse. My five-year-old daughter even listens in with me sometimes. I admit I have referenced you more than once as my spirit animal, if you were a cute little fluffy bunny or something. But, no, seriously, you are my soul sister. God bless you as you continue serving Jesus Christ. Hey, we can't wait to see you in September." Man, I'm telling you what --

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that sweet?

K.C. Wright: -- that's the best review ever. And feel the podcast hug right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so here's what I did, K.C. So I was like, well, she said she's coming to Fresh Grounded Faith.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I went to Target with Kenzie and said, "We have to find a little fluffy bunny, because I got to meet this woman and I got to give her her own little spirit animal."

K.C. Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I show up at Plant City Fresh Grounded Faith and I'm on stage. Annie F. Downs was with me at that one. So I had printed out the review. And I'm like, "Annie, can you read this for me?" And so we don't know if this woman is there. And by the way, her name turned out to be Joanne. We don't know if she's there. But I'm like, "Annie, can you read this?" So the whole audience -- she's reading this review, and then I ask, you know, "Is she here?" And she's like, "Yes." She runs up screaming and I pull out a white little fluffy bunny and gave it to her.

K.C. Wright: Ooh, that's great.

Jennifer Rothschild: So she has her own little white fluffy bunny. So shout out to you, Joanne. That was one of the highlights of last year for us. Tell your five-year-old -- who may be six now -- also that I said hello. And we're just super grateful. So I hope you've still got your little bunny. And I thought that was fun of Annie, too, to do it with me, because she's such a podcasting rock star. Anyway, so it was very fun. And that has nothing to do with this conversation, K.C., but I just had forgotten to tell you. And that's, like, a big deal to me, that I fill you in on everything you don't need to know.

Okay, so we're going to talk about food, though. So it's time to, like, pull out your favorite snacks so we can talk about food. But we need to introduce Leslie first.

K.C. Wright: Leslie Schilling is a registered dietitian, sports nutritionist, and nutrition therapist. She owns a coaching practice specializing in nutrition counseling for families, people with disordered eating concerns, professional athletes, and performers.

In addition to running her practice, Leslie has served as a performance nutrition consultant for -- get this -- Cirque du Soleil --

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

K.C. Wright: -- and as an expert contributor to "U.S. News & World Report," sharing advice on parenting and health.

Y'all, this is once again going to be so good. There's room at the table for you. Are you ready for this?

Jennifer Rothschild: We are ready. We got our Doritos.

K.C. Wright: Let's lean in --

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's do it.

K.C. Wright: -- and go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Leslie, I'm very excited to talk about your book. So let's start with this, though. Let's start with what we believe about our bodies. Because the noise of diet culture, like, it's everywhere. It's on TV, it's on social media, it's the conversation of women in coffee shops. And so let's talk about some of the myths that we have been told and that we believe about our body.

Leslie Schilling: I think the biggest myth is that we're all supposed to be one size. Like, we really think that -- what we've been taught, and seeds planted from a very young age, that if we do this, eat this way or move this way or whatever, that we can have this kind of body ideal, which is made up from diet culture. And so that's definitely a myth that, like, we could all look a certain way, because we're all different, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Leslie Schilling: And one way I love to kind of point out how this is such a myth is, like, we all have very, very different shoe sizes and we're different heights. And nobody's ever like, "I wish my size 9 foot was, you know, a 7 1/2." I mean, maybe if you're at a sale and the 7 1/2's are, like, $20, then maybe. But we don't question that. We're just like, oh, it's my genetics.

But bodies are the same way. But, you know, such a myth in diet culture that bodies can all look the same. It doesn't really celebrate divine diversity at all, which has been with us forever. So the bodies can all look the same if we do what diet culture tells us to. That's definitely a myth.

The other -- like, I'd say one of the biggest myths is that your weight equals your health. And your weight really is not a great proxy for health at all, but the diet culture has taught us to use it as an indicator of health, which it's really not. And it's perpetuated in the safe places, which would be your doctor's office; health offices; schools; sometimes churches; places of worship; in conversation, people talking about their diets and their goal weights and things like that. And so to think that health equals your number on a scale is truly, truly a myth that harms so many of us, but we also innocently chase it because we trust very educated, very authoritative figures about this.

And so diet culture and kind of weight-centric practice has been baked into all of our education, and that's doctors, dietitians, nurses, therapists. Like, we all learn it in school, a very weight-centric approach; however, it's not really health promoting. And if we want to do things that promote our health, we can do it in the absence of chasing a number on the scale.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So my curiosity is so piqued. Because as you and I talked about earlier, I went to Italy a while back and I was very mesmerized by the wine and the food and the pasta. And I just thought what a very different culture, that it was celebrated and it was comfortable; whereas I, coming in from America, I was very mindful. I wonder how many carbs this has, I wonder how -- you know? So in a little bit I want to get to some of that trusting food in our conversation.

But before that, let's talk about this. Because you write that these programs, like that you just mentioned, that we're told will make us thin or healthy, they're made to fail. So I want to know why that is and how that's affected us.

Leslie Schilling: Well, you know, diet culture is a billion, billion, billion dollar industry. And it gets that way by just, you know, repackaging the same old diet, like wolf in sheep's clothing. And now what we're really running into is -- we're running into things that say they're not a diet, but they are a diet. And we're getting into some really sneaky psychological stuff with marketing around diet culture.

So 95% of weight loss dieting fails. So you lose the weight initially, you gain it back at the three- to five-year mark. And somewhere between 65 and 70 percent-ish of the people who gain it back, gain back more as well. That's because our bodies are not meant to be underfed or restricted. Our bodies don't know the difference between famine and dieting. And we are meant to -- like, if you watch a child or an infant begin to eat, they bob for the breast or the bottle or they grab solid foods when, you know, that's available and appropriate for them, because we are born with this innate skill to feed ourselves. And diet culture teaches us to not trust that. And the seeds are planted so, so early. So, therefore, we kind of get wrapped up in this chronic dieting cycle. And also it gets recommended to us in the safe places, and then we chase this number on the scale. And it does work. Diets do work at first. But they don't work for the long haul.

We have the same level of evidence that diets do not work that we do that smoking causes cancer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my.

Leslie Schilling: And the same level, like, high level, randomized controlled trials. But we don't talk about that because diet culture is so wrapped up, even in our medical system, that we just keep saying we want bodies to shrink, not we want bodies to be well and fed both mentally and physically.

So, yeah, so diets are designed to fail. And the way we keep coming back to it is because diet culture blames us. And we just think it will be the next one, the next one will do the trick. However, that's just not how the body works.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Okay. And in a little bit we're going to talk about some more of the practical reality. Because you have a solution in your book and a whole paradigm shift that I want us to talk about.

But you mentioned something a few questions ago that I want to circle back to. And you talk about it in the book. You write that body diversity is divine. Okay? Because you talked about the divine diversity. So why do you think we have such a hard time believing this, especially women?

Leslie Schilling: You know, there's so many factors, I think, that go into this, because our culture has really -- and I'll stick to kind of this women piece here. But our culture has really done a number on objectifying the female body. And whether it's, like, to praise the gaze -- or to, like, have the gaze -- the male view -- or any view honestly. It's like we've really objectified female bodies, making us really more of, like, an object to look at versus a true human that God made so divine and so different than your neighbor on purpose.

And in that objectification, what we've done is we've turned it on ourselves too. And so in objectifying our own selves, we think, oh, if I just diet, I can change this part of my body or I can change that part of my body. And we have a really hard time believing in body diversity when we're also objectifying ourselves. And I don't think we realize we do that, because we're taught to do that in the safe places. And that might be keep your body in whatever shape to praise God.

And I just want to say that that is -- body diversity is so divine that -- like, there's so many different types of bodies. There's so many different types of abilities in our culture. And what we see as being the perfect -- I'm using my air quotes -- the perfect body or that ideal body in our culture is not offered to everyone. It's not offered to every believer. Our definition of health is not offered to everyone. Our definition of moving our bodies is not offered to everyone. And I believe that if something isn't available or offered to every believer, then God does not require it of us.

And we do not have to earn, right? We don't have to -- like, it's not really a message of grace to say you have to eat this way or move your body this way. It's not a message of grace to say that this is how you achieve righteousness, this is how you keep the temple, which has nothing to do with food at all. But diet culture has really, really done a number on that verse. But, yeah, so, like, body diversity is so divine, but we're very distracted by the thin ideal and body objectification.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And it's interesting, even if you did want to apply that temple -- that our bodies is the temple of the Holy Spirit, if you wanted to apply it to this, not every temple looks alike. Why we think we all have to use the same architecture and the same design. It is kind of crazy.

I think what you said earlier, too, Leslie, just struck me about the shoe size. We don't decide we have to change our shoe size so that we all match. It's very interesting. It's subtle. It's very subtle. And I think something else that we do that is subtle, we don't even realize the shame that we feel about our bodies. It's, like, so innate in us because it's just normal to us. So I'm curious if you can help us, like, discerning if we're experiencing shame when it comes to our bodies, and perhaps what habits we could start to stop that cycle of body shaming.

Leslie Schilling: Well, I want to -- like, this shame that we feel -- and I know you've just recently done an episode on shame too. It was so good. And this shame that we feel is because these false beliefs or seeds of doubt have been planted in our hearts and souls so early in life, and done so without our consent. And so we grow up in the safe places and hear these messages in schools, we hear -- we use stigmatizing languages in health lessons or even fluency lessons. I mean, it's everywhere. It's not just in health lessons, it's in, like, literature. And if you have a body that is somewhat othered, then we automatically feel like we did -- something is wrong with us.

But what we really have to do is when we start to see diet culture -- like, oh, it's everywhere. It's in the safe places. And this something's not right with me, this I'm not good enough feeling, this shame that emerges, we can rightfully, rightfully put that where it belongs into, like, I was taught to not love my body, that I had to micromanage my body from a young age, and that shame is not mine to carry.

And this is where I joke with a lot of my clients when we're talking. A lot of people talk about righteous anger. I'm like, this is where the anger belongs, this righteous anger of, like, how dare diet culture. And even people who I thought were safe plant this seed for me to have this legacy of body hatred. And to know that we don't have to carry it is such a shame breaker. Like, we do not have to accept the inheritance of body hatred, but we don't realize it's not ours to carry until we can see diet culture.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Leslie Schilling: And so I think seeing diet culture is the biggest thing. Like, oh, whoa, there it is. There it is. And at the same time, not getting upset with yourself when you have a desire for weight loss or you have a desire to change your body. Because we all live here. We all live in diet culture. It makes sense that we'll feel those things.

But we can also choose not to chase them. We can choose to be like, okay, I feel uncomfortable some days in my body, and it's still a good body, and it's still a wonderfully made body, and I'm going to choose not to engage in behaviors that maybe don't support it, don't support its divine design. And those behaviors could be, like, getting adequate sleep, eating. Eating. Like, half of what I do is give people permission to eat, that they don't really need from me. They just need to, like, step out of diet culture and know that, like -- these bodies need a lot more energy than what we've been told and sold. We need so much more energy. So eating consistent meals. Like, eat all your meals. It's okay. Don't skip meals. Skipping meals is actually a disordered eating behavior.

And so eat your meals can honor your body when you feel hunger. And if you're a person who feels kind of out of touch with that, then, like, stay consistently feeding your body at your meals. Just kind of get back into a regular practice, and that usually resumes where we've like -- oh, there's my hunger cues, there's my satisfaction. Like, those are things that we can get back if we're trusting our internal design and not external devices. We're like, okay, I don't need the clock, I don't need my app. I can trust my body staying hydrated, especially this hot summer all the time. But, like, I live in Las Vegas, it's super hot.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's hot all the time, yeah.

Leslie Schilling: It's hot all the time. So staying hydrated.

You know, if it's available to you and accessible to you, moving your body in joyful ways. If your neighbor is a runner and you don't like to run, don't run. It is not the gold standard unless it brings you joy. And if you love that, great. Like, I love hiking. I am blessed to live in a place where I can hike all the -- you know, like -- not all the time. Not in the summer. That would be a sad choice. But I love hiking, I love nature. It connects me to God, it connects me -- I celebrate being able bodied and be able to move my body in that way.

The other thing we have to remember -- and this is something that I wish that you would hear at the doctor's office or health offices. I wish doctors would be like, "How much time do you spend with people that you enjoy?" Because when we look at the mortality risk data, what you weigh is way down on the list. The top two things that reduce mortality risk in this world are positive relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Leslie Schilling: But -- I know. I know. So are you spending time with people that fill your cup? And if you're not, could we make that a priority? But our culture tells us to, like, follow an app, what an app says to eat, and over-exercise and do all the things, and we're doing all these things that really don't matter as much. I mean, yes, food and movement definitely matter. But taking care of yourself, feeding yourself regularly, adequately, and having good relationships matters. It matters so much more.

And so I would love for someone at the doctor's office to say, you know, I really would love for you to make a priority of spending time with people that you really like to be around, and making sure you get enough sleep, and that you're feeding yourself adequately and consistently. Oh, and by the way, I'm not going to weigh you every time you come in here, because 90% of those weight checks are unnecessary in adult patients. So, I mean, like, wouldn't that be beautiful?

But those are the things that really, really matter. I mean, there's definitely more. There are definitely more things that we can choose in health promoting. But relationships, moving your body in joyful ways if that's accessible, and feeding your very good divine body adequately and consistently.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so liberating. That is so stinking liberating, because it does remove the focus from yourself and performing and checking every single box, to just enjoying the life that God has given you. And isn't that interesting, that that's what he designed to have you live your longest and best life?

But I want to talk about food specifically, because you mentioned something about it. And you write in your book that we can trust food. Okay? That's an interesting concept, because a lot of people are like, I do not trust that sinister cheeseburger. It's tempting me and it's going to turn me into something I don't want to be. You know what I mean. So elaborate on what you mean by we can trust food.

Leslie Schilling: Oh, goodness. Well, if you're on the socials, there's so much fearmongering. Because if we can make people afraid of food, then we can sell them our program.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Leslie Schilling: You know, if we can make people afraid to trust their bodies, then we can sell them something that can fix. There are my air quotes. So we can trust food, meaning, like, everything that we have is a gift from God. You know, like, everything we have. And that includes food. And it even includes convenience food.

So imagine a family who's very busy. So mom works a couple jobs. We're taking the kids to school. We don't have time to sit down and prepare breakfast. And they run by a convenience store and they pick up a pack of crackers, and maybe they pick up a banana, and maybe they pick up some other type of food. That family got fed. And we demonize that in our culture, but that's how that family got fed. And so we can trust food, you know, and we can -- and these amazing vessels that God made -- like, God didn't make junk. We can handle the ingredients, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Leslie Schilling: And we say silly things in our culture like don't eat it if you can't pronounce it. But if you know the chemical name of water, a lot of people can't pronounce it. So, I mean, we just get wrapped up in this diet culture folklore that causes so much fearmongering. Are there things that -- do some people have to make some modifications with the foods that they eat because maybe they have food allergies or very specific medical nutrition needs? Yes, of course. And I do that in my office.

But I'd say for the majority of people, we can trust food. We can trust food that comes with no package, we can trust food that comes with a package. Matter of fact, that's how, like -- these days I buy so many bagged salads, because, like, I'm not going to shave a Brussel sprout, but I will eat one if Trader Joe's does it. So, I mean, those are things that, like -- it's okay that getting fed isn't a Food TV production. And we have really made, like, you know, from scratch and whole this and all that so elevated, when it's really not that necessary. It's okay to trust food, it's okay to have convenience items, it's okay to not have convenience -- it's okay to put foods in your body that bring you joy, regardless of their nutritional value.

We want foods to be emotionally neutral. Foods are not moral. We want them to be emotionally neutral, and not moral, while understanding that they may not be nutritionally equivalent. And that's okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Leslie Schilling: Yeah. And that's okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Leslie Schilling: So really, it's the fearmongering in diet culture that has made us not trust food, which trickles back to, like, we can't trust our bodies with food. But we can trust these very wise bodies with food.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we can, because we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

Leslie Schilling: Yes, we are.

Jennifer Rothschild: Toward the end of your book, Leslie, you encourage us to let ourselves go. Okay. So that's a curious phrase and thought, though I think I know where you're heading with it since you just discussed what it means to trust food. But tell us what it looks like to let ourselves go. And why is that a good thing?

Leslie Schilling: I loved writing this chapter so much. One, it was kind of a sum-up.

But, two, it's kind of a play on words. Because I kind of work in the non-diet space of medical nutrition therapy. And then we have a lot of people who just don't get it, right? Even in the health profession, they just don't -- they're like, oh, let yourself go. And so it's kind of a play on words of like, you know what? We are letting ourselves go. We're letting ourselves go to a dinner party and not worry about what we're eating or not eating or what other people are eating. We're letting ourselves go buy clothes that fit our very good now body, because being comfortable in our clothes helps us move about in the world and have relationships and connections. We're letting go of talking negatively about food or our bodies because the little ears around us don't need to carry that their whole lives. We're letting go so we can enjoy the beautiful gift of food and feeding ourselves to connect with other humans and to leave a legacy that does not include passing down diet culture.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which includes shame.

Leslie Schilling: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word. That is a good word. Because you're right, if for no other reasons, even if someone listening is like, Well, I don't know, I don't know, knowing little ears are listening and that you're passing down perhaps a dysfunction that could really saddle them their whole lives with shame is not worth it. So amen to that. Let yourself go.

All right. I love your paradigm here, Leslie. And I love how biblical it is and I love the liberty that it brings. And it reminds me, too, that we can trust our bodies. We can trust what we crave and we can also trust the Holy Spirit's wisdom in our lives.

So let's get to our last question, though. What is one thing from your book that all of us can start doing today to just experience this good, healthy, safe relationship with food?

Leslie Schilling: Get rid of the scale and feed yourself consistently. You know, get rid of the things that can quickly become idols. The number on the scale, the trackers. There's nuance there. Some people use those things, like, for GPS not to get lost while they're hiking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

Leslie Schilling: But don't outsource your inner wisdom to an external device when God made you so unique and capable.

K.C. Wright: Those, Jenn, were some good words, and someone needed to hear that right now, I just know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I kind of needed to hear it personally.

And now listen, y'all, you can keep your scale and your tracker if they aren't idols, if they serve you rather than enslave you. But if those things enslave you, you get rid of them and you trust your body, because you can trust your body when you're trusting your Lord.

K.C. Wright: So if you need to hear this again -- and I do -- you can share it with a friend or read the whole transcript at 413podcast.com/287. And breaking news, we're giving one of her books away right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yay.

K.C. Wright: "You Can Feed Yourself" at Jennifer's Instagram by simply going to @jennrothschild on the ol' Instagram. Okay? Or you will find a link right here at the Show Notes, which is 413podcast.com/287.

Jennifer Rothschild: By the way, when you were saying that you can find her book "You Can Feed Yourself" at, y'all, that's the name of the book. He's not saying you can go to my --

K.C. Wright: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Instagram and feed yourself.

K.C. Wright: Oh, yeah. The book is called "Feed Yourself."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: But you can also feed yourself spiritually.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes, you can. Which is the point. Anyway...

K.C. Wright: Which is the point.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, our people, take a minute to just pause and sit with yourself. Really allow yourself to feel hunger, feel satisfied, taste food. Enjoy the stretch you feel when you walk. You can do this, our friends, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

K.C. Wright: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right.

K.C. Wright: Speaking of food, you know, recently I went to this gym, and I walked in and I'm like, wow, all these people look like models. And they had washboard abs, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: -- and I did not feel like I belonged.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

K.C. Wright: And so I left. Drove all the way across town over, actually, by your house, Jenn. Walked in, found middle-aged men with a love affair for Taco Bell and Chick-fil-A, and I said to myself, "Self, these are my people."

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm home.

K.C. Wright: "These are my people."