4:13 Podcast: Can I Redefine Success? With Levi Lusko [Episode 368]

Levi Lusko: I'm five years later almost, looking back, going, Thank you, Jesus, for that season, because in that season, you developed me. In that season you came near to me. In that season you trusted me with your presence. You gave me treasures of darkness. You didn't let me just keep on in cruise control, you let me pause, catch a breath, cry out to you for new mercy and reorient myself to what true north is going into the second half of my life.

Because new seasons require new strategies. And if we don't pause to get our bearings, we'll keep playing the second half of life like we played the first. But the goal needs to be different and tweaked for the last 50 yards versus the first 50.

Jennifer Rothschild: There are times in our lives when we find ourselves in seasons of transition. Like, it might be a career shift, or maybe it's just a major life change. And when that happens, we can feel confused and disoriented and like success is a far-gone memory and a million miles away. Well, today's guest, Levi Lusko, is serving up a rich blend of honest stories, biblical insight, and hard-won wisdom to help you trade in those old definitions of success and walk fully into the significance that God intended for you.

Ooh, do you know what time it is? It is time to redefine success. So, KC, let's get this started.

KC Wright: Let's go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends. So glad you're here with us. We miss you when you're not here. I had a friend this past week come over, and she wanted to see the podcast closet. And she goes, "You and KC really sit in there?" I said, "Yes." That's why there's only room for one topic and two friends and zero stress, it's a tiny closet.

But we're glad you're with us in the closet, and I hope you've had a good week. I'm Jennifer. My goal, along with KC, is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life along with us. It's true, it is through Christ, his power in us, that we can do and be all he has called us to do and be. I'm so thankful it's Christ in us and it's not up to us.

I'll tell you, I'm in the middle of a busy fall. In fact, as you're listening to this, likely I am already in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, at a Favored Women Conference where I'm speaking. But -- KC already knows this -- this fall, it is our last, final -- we're calling it the Grand Finale Tour -- for Fresh Grounded Faith.

So we're going to be in The Woodlands, Texas, in October. We're also going to be in Callahan, Florida, in October. And we're also going to be back in Texas at Lubbock, Texas. And then our grand finale, the last Fresh Grounded Faith ever after 18 years, will be on November 7th and 8th in Springfield, Missouri.

So I'm just letting y'all know that, because I have heard when I'm on the road, "Oh, I want to come to a Fresh Grounded." Well, this is your opportunity to come. So you can just Google it, if you can't remember what I said, or, of course, those will be on the Show Notes. But you'll see where we are.

But before we get to Levi, I need to check on my friend KC. Have you had a good week? Have you -- tell me what's up with you, because we haven't even had a chance to talk.

KC Wright: Well, I'm going to tell you, my week has been influenced by you. We all know that our girl J.R., she is techie. Her middle name may be "Techie." But she likes all things tech.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do.

KC Wright: Well, because of you and your influence, I have been obsessed this week with ChatGPT.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. He's our friend now.

KC Wright: Okay, let me tell you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay, what?

KC Wright: -- what I've done. So I stood in front of my house the other day -- I found this was so amazing -- and I took a picture of my house. And I sent Chat a picture of my house, and I said, "Give me some ideas on how I could paint my home differently. I want my shutters and my front door and my garage door -- make it contemporary and cool."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: This thing, in a matter of moments, sent me back four or five great options.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: So I chose the more contemporary, modern look, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

KC Wright: And it responded with, "Would you like me to create you a shopping list from Home Depot or Lowe's?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness. And you said, Yes, please. And would you take up a love offering, Chat?

KC Wright: With the exact shopping list --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

KC Wright: -- of the exact paint that I needed to do this.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love Chat. See why I love him?

KC Wright: Okay. And now you're going to get this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: And then also I took a picture of my living room. And I sent it to Chat and I said, "Hey, Chat, how would you decorate this living room?" And then it asked me, "Well, do you want it country? Do you want it modern?" you know, all that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: And now I'm in trouble because it sent me back a picture of this contemporary cool all white. What I want, the white and gold vibe. It's so fresh and cool.

But then, you know, someone's on a budget. It's me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

KC Wright: And I got J.R.'s chairs from her house and I ain't getting rid of them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, those can be your pop of color no matter what.

KC Wright: And so I said, "Okay, redesign my living room using the furniture I already have."

Jennifer Rothschild: Brilliant. And what did it do?

KC Wright: It did.

Jennifer Rothschild: Did it do a good job?

KC Wright: Mind blowing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

KC Wright: It's a little wild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Have you started changing it yet?

KC Wright: No. I just have the picture saved on my phone. I've done nothing. But I just wanted to share with you that you've influenced me this week.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that just inspires me. You know what? I was -- I'm partly techie because I have sons who are techie, and Connor recently was just telling me, "Mom, you need to use ChatGPT more imaginative than generative." So usually I'm generative. Like, I'm, you know, helping him do research -- asking him to help me do research. But he's like, "No, he's got new skills." I mean, we all call him "he" like he's a real thing. He's artificial. But that's what you're doing.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're using those imaginative skills. And that's so fun. I love that.

KC Wright: And also, who even needs a personal trainer anymore? Tell Chat your goals, your fitness goals. "Hey, I need more protein."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: "Hey, I need to lose weight."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it'll -- I know.

KC Wright: It'll whip out a complete program for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I didn't tell you this, and I'll tell you this real quick. But my back went out this week.

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it was so bad, KC. Like, I -- it hurt when I woke up. I sat up and it really hurt. I stepped out of bed and it spasmed, like, and I couldn't walk. So I'm on the floor. And I won't give you all the gruesome details. Those of us who've had our back go out understand all the gruesome details.

So anyway, I couldn't move. Phil was calling the doctor, trying to get ice to put on it. Long story short, I was on the floor for four hours waiting for this muscle relaxant to kick in --

KC Wright: Oh, my.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- so he could move me into bed. Well, in the meantime, I have my phone with me and I'm like, "Chat, what do you do when your back is" -- you know, and I'm talking to him. And he's -- listen, Willis, he got so compassionate and he's like, "I'm sorry that happened." I'm like, "Thank you." Empathy is healing. And then literally I tried to turn over, and I didn't realize he was still on, and I went, "Ooh" -- you know, just kind of moaned, and he said, "I can tell that hurts." And I thought, okay, that's creepy. Go away. Go away. Okay. Anyway...

Yes, it's brilliant --

KC Wright: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and it's amazing --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and it's a nice little companion. But I prefer my humans when it's all said and done.

KC Wright: Yes. Yes, we still prefer humans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Which one of the greatest is about to talk to us. And I'm glad we get to hear from Levi, so let's introduce him.

KC Wright: Levi Lusko is the founder and lead pastor of Fresh Life Church located in Montana, Idaho, Oregon, and Utah. He's the best-selling author of "Through the Eyes of a Lion" and "I Declare War," among others. Levi also travels the world speaking about Jesus. He and his wife, Jennie, have one son, Lennox, and four daughters: Alivia, Daisy, Clover, and Lenya, who is in heaven.

All right. Buckle up. This is going to be so good. Levi is talking about his latest book today called "Blessed Are the Spiraling."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that title.

KC Wright: Here is Jennifer and Levi.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Levi. I've just heard about you for years, so I'm really happy we get to talk today, because -- especially when I saw your new book, "Blessed Are the Spiraling," I thought, okay, that's a title that I need to know more about because I kind of think I could identify a little bit. And then when I looked into the book, I realized I can.

Because in your book, you talked about how you experienced panic attacks. And it kind of shook you up and made you question your purpose, and you just went through this -- well, for lack of a better word, spiraling season. So I want you to take us there, please, and help us understand what that spiral was like for you. And then, like, how did you begin to get through it?

Levi Lusko: Sure. Well, thank you for having me. And sadly, I haven't yet met the person who hasn't been able to say, Hey, me too. I've been there, I've experienced that. We all know the sensation of being destabilized. And even when we were kids, to give a better chance in a game you would have someone close their eyes and spin around in circles and then it was much harder to do anything once you were kind of dizzy. And I think life can get us dizzy. And you can lose your bearings, you can lose your sense of direction and purpose, and it's really -- it happens easier than you think, and so often around big transition moments.

Of course, it's not exclusively transition, but oftentimes change is hard, change is scary, it threatens our perception of control, which is always an illusion. But in some safe moments, we feel like more than others we're in control. But then all of a sudden, bam, your kids go off to kindergarten and you're destabilized because now you're just starting to think, oh, my gosh, they're not babies anymore, and soon they're going to be graduating and off to marriage, and they won't even take my calls anymore. And, you know, your mind just goes to a dark place. Or maybe that's just me.

But I think even when you're at good moments, like, I always wanted to be here. Sometimes the big accomplishments or new seasons we were looking forward to don't feel like what we thought they were going to feel like. And so even though we love our husband or wife, we're glad to be married, all of a sudden we're just like, I didn't know it would feel like this. And I was looking forward to retirement or empty nest or to get through successfully my 30s, which was my experience.

The moment you were talking about, the bleak period that eventually found its way into this book years later was when I turned 38. I'm about to turn 43 now, so it's five years ago. And in that season, unexpectedly I fell into a spiraling time that I now can look back with perspective and clarity in hindsight and say, oh, it was a midlife crisis essentially, although in the moment I just didn't understand because it kind of sneaks up on you.

For me it was a sense of apathy, I didn't have the same level of drive I had had all through my 20s and 30s, mixed with dread, a fear that maybe the greatest days weren't in front of me anymore. And there was some sense of I've peaked or where do I go from here or do I have what it takes to lead and to lead my organization that I serve at into the future?

And then like you mentioned, yes, panic was even a part of it, a really uncomfortable feeling of panic that usually came close to bedtime or right after that. And all of it was so scary and disorienting and it felt like I was just in a big spiral.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so it sounds like it kind of took you off guard. Like, you just started noticing little things, the dread, the fatigue, the apathy, however you described it, and then, boom, all of a sudden it's like a tornado. Would that characterize how you had that experience five years ago, and do you think that's typical?

Levi Lusko: Yeah, I think so. I think it's like the frog in the kettle. It never knows, like, when it's so hot, it can jump out. So it's like -- I don't know how it all sort of came on me, but I know when it came on me, and it was during the pandemic when we were all at home and we weren't having the novelty and distraction of getting out like we used to. I travel and preach on the road a lot, have been all over the world doing that, and so all of a sudden I'm for an extended period of time at home. And I don't think I'm the only one who found that to be uncomfortable. I think a lot of mental health issues and emotional issues came to the surface because we just had the time sitting still long enough to actually feel them.

My psychologist helped me understand that soldiers don't, in wartime, have the effects of PTSD; they get it when they get home. And there's a reason. The body feels safe enough to now process the things you faced. And I think for me, there was the nicks and bruises of just running too hard perhaps for an 18-year long stretch of vitality and having the energy and having the stamina and feeling like I can do it. I have a big threshold, I can go for it. And wrote a ton of books, traveled to a ton of countries, started a bunch of churches, and then as well was doing the dad thing and all of that.

And I think the unsustainable pace was a component of it, but not exclusively. There was also some unprocessed trauma and some emotional things that I had faced as a child that I'd sort of stuffed down and never really dealt with. And then there was also just the fact that I was at the midlife moment, which is not for nothing a challenging threshold to cross over for all of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is. It's a defining moment. And what I appreciate about you sharing that, Levi, also is because -- you know, you're just being honest. And lots of us experience this and can name it, and lots of us experience this and can't name it. And so I appreciate that you're putting language to it, because I know that's really helping some people go, "Oh, I get that." And it's interesting that you said you experienced it, you know, in your late 30s, where you're calling, like, a midlife.

So it's interesting in the book that you mentioned that this time, this midlife crisis, surprised you with delight. Okay? Now, I want us to, like, speed bump that. Okay? It paused you with delight. Because that's not what I would have expected to have read. So explain that.

Levi Lusko: Yeah. I think it's really important for people who are in a storm right now, a spiraling season right now, to just stop, and even almost if you have to, in faith say, this is hard, but I'm going to get through this, and the day is going to come when I'm going to look back on this and it's going to be a blessing. That's why I called the book what I did.

And if you look at the cover of it, there's a tornado, which is one of nature's most feared creatures. You know, the tornado, if it comes, it takes a home out, right? But the tornado on my cover is made of wildflowers. So it's this juxtaposition of a terrible, fear-filled thing, but also one that's delightful and decadent and flowers and beautiful and art. And that's what Jesus said is possible if we walk with him every day. He said that you are blessed when you are poor in spirit. Who wants to be poor in spirit? I'd rather be rich in faith. Hello.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Levi Lusko: Who wants to be persecuted? Who wants to mourn? I do not want to mourn. That means you lose something. Do you want to have people curse you for his name's sake and say all manner of evil against you? Blessed are you, right? Okay, hold on. That's a tornado: mourning, poor in spirit, persecuted, slandered. But it's a tornado of wildflowers because there's blessing tucked in it.

So, no, I will tell you, Jennifer, when I was going through this season, I did not feel there was any amount of this is beautiful, I feel God on my face. I felt like I'm scared, I'm coming unglued. Why is this happening? Why can't it be like it was two years ago when I was just, you know, all engines running?

And then I can say -- here's all I can say. I'm five years later almost, looking back going, Thank you, Jesus, for that season, because in that season you developed me. In that season you came near to me. In that season you trusted me with your presence. You gave me treasures of darkness. You didn't let me just keep on in cruise control, you let me pause, catch a breath, cry out to you for new mercy, and reorient myself to what true north is going into the second half of my life.

Because new seasons require new strategies. And if we don't pause to get our bearings, we'll keep playing the second half of life like we played the first, but the goal needs to be different and tweaked for the last 50 yards versus the first 50.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And saying that, too, makes me realize if you had not had this refining severe mercy, this would have just happened in another way at another time. And who knows? You know, if someone right now is listening and going through a spiraling, this is God's merciful timing. You don't know how bad it is right now, you don't know what he's protecting you from in the future. So to be able to have that opportunity, I can see why now you would call it delight.

And the point is, Levi, when you're in it, you think you're always going to feel this way. But the reality with Christ is you're not always going to feel this way. And, in fact, in your book you write that our faith story is not one that goes from strength to strength, but from death to resurrection. So I want to understand what you mean by that.

Levi Lusko: Yeah. I mean, we just had Easter. And it's a wonderful story, but it involves something dying and then being reborn, recreated, coming back to life. This is Jesus. And it's not just what he does, it's who he is. He said, "I am the resurrection and the life, and if you follow me, you will die and you will live." And, of course, that does mean that when we die, we are physically going to be resurrected at the second coming of Christ.

But I also believe it's prototypical of everything he wants to do in our lives in this inaugurated but not totally realized kingdom, this sense in which our spirits have come alive in Christ and are reborn, but everything's going to, between now and then, be in the process of coming back to life. That means we have to die daily. And you can't be resurrected until you die. And that's why Jesus said, "You have to deny yourself and pick up your cross and follow me." Paul said, "I want to be crucified with Christ." And so there's a sense in which we have to have deaths so that we can experience rebirths and being reborn and being renewed.

And I think you're so right. You just said if it hadn't come out in this way, it might have come out in another way. And the worst thing about that is someone spiraling can spiral into suicide or spiral into an affair or spiral into making a terrible mistake, committing a crime or -- you know, it's going to come out one way or another because something's under that thing that you're feeling and seeing right now. And lest it turn into a sin or a grievous error or something you look back on with regret, you can instead, my psychologist helped me to see, let that energy that's building -- you're feeling something -- let it catalyze into growth, into the arms of Christ, into that severe mercy, and let God develop you.

You know, Malcolm Muggeridge said, at the age of 75, I look back on my life and I do not see one period of growth that was during a time that was easy or a time of just beauty. It was always during hard times. And that's just the sad but hard truth about how we grow. We grow through things being broken down and things being brutal. And so I think that's why in the upside-down Kingdom James says rejoice when you fall into various trials.

So to anybody spiraling today, God's trying to grow you. He's not angry at you, he's in love with you, he's trying to develop you. And in a strange way, he's entrusted you with this trial to stretch your faith, grow you, make you more like him, and let you right size yourself, I think, to where he stays big and you stay small, as opposed to the other, which is sadly what we creep towards.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right. Isn't that the truth, Levi? It's hard to support our own weight when we get really big in our own eyes. And we don't mean to, but we sense the uncertainty and the lack of control and we try to, you know, get taller on the inside and get more control, and it really just damages us.

You know what I was thinking, too, when you created that beautiful image of the daisies, the flowers, wildflowers in the tornado -- I live in the Midwest. And I was thinking, tornadoes are devastating. They are devastating. And that's what it feels like in our life. But when it destroys something, then you can rebuild. Then you can take all those parts that remain, and what remains -- you know, what really matters will remain, and then you can rebuild. And really it's God that's rebuilding in us.

But you said a few minutes ago -- and I want to circle back to this -- that there's strategies that we need. Like, new seasons require new strategies, I think is how you said it. So I'm curious what some of those strategies could be that we can apply if we are in a season of transition or where we feel like we're spiraling.

Levi Lusko: Yeah, that's totally great. I think it's really important to deal with it holistically and not just on one level. I mean, Jesus said that we were to love God with our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and so there's a sense in which you can't just love God one-dimensionally. And so in a spiraling season, our strategies for getting out of it have to encompass body, mind, soul, spirit, emotions, the totality of who you are.

So a component of it, of course, is going to be church and faith and Scripture. Specifically I believe Bible memorization is powerful. Also the practice of fasting and some of these things that have been for 2,000 years and beyond that a big part of how the people of faith have learned to walk with God with all of their guts, with all of their body, abstaining from food.

I think also just the simple thing of dealing with the problems in this modern world of being in nature more. There are parts of our body that yearn for the beauty of Eden. And living in a city, living in, you know, the urban sprawl or a suburb community and going from air-conditioned car to air-conditioned office, you can literally create a life where you're never outside. You shut the garage door before you get out of the car. So prioritizing time in nature. I was taking a walk, a stroll in the woods today. I felt myself coming alive. I felt my soul unfolding a little bit.

Leaving our phones behind. These are really small but important things we can do. They are proven anxiety devices. You know, your soul is not big enough to handle every person you follow on social media, every breaking news development, every stock price, every crazy catastrophe happening wherever in the world that now we know about at all times. You just can't hold all that. God can, but you can't. And so I think that's a big component.

I also in the book give kind of a rough blueprint for how to connect the dots. I share all my notes pretty -- I didn't pull any punches sharing the messy, gory, unflattering things I found when I went through a lot of counseling to connect some dots from my life on development, from pornography to my relationship with my mom, to how that led into patterns of ministry in mega churches for me and how to get to a healthy spot. And then I try and provide a little bit of a template -- I'm, of course, not a counselor, but I try and provide just some of the best things I gleaned from those hard moments to help people connect some of their own dots. I think that's a big part of it.

And then I think also the strategy for the second half of your life, or the next season that's still in front of you, is one that needs to go from less being about just what you do, accomplish, and build, and more how you can serve, equip, and open doors for other people who are coming after you to take all the tribal wisdom that you've accumulated and dispense it so that you don't end up becoming like Saul, who is jealous of King David, instead of championing King David to go on and do the tens of thousands of victories for the glory of God that he was meant to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And didn't Saul deal with some really severe mental illness too? It can't always be all about us. That's really good, Levi. And -- man, there's so many things you said there.

Okay. Connecting the dots, it just shows an integrated way to live too. Which, I mean, when you think about it, if you're not integrated, you are disintegrated. And, boy, doesn't that describe how we feel in those seasons? Okay, I appreciate that that's so holistic.

One of the strategies that you suggest in the book is called the Container Model. Now, I'm curious, does that have something to do with connecting the dots, or is that something different? What is the Container Model?

Levi Lusko: Yeah. I mean, of course, they all go in and out of each other. But the Container Model is -- one scholar said that basically life can be broken down into three seasons. First season is a build a container season, the second season is fill your container, and the third is to get ready to give the container and its contents away.

So if you think about it in terms of, like, the Cars movie franchise, Lightning McQueen in the first film just wants to get this piston cup, a big container. And he's got the fires and energies of youth. He's that coming out of college ready to start in the job force, build the church, build the business, start the brand. He's hustling. He thinks he's going to be fine if he gets that cup. But that's not enough. Because even though he gets the cup, it's empty.

And so in the second movie you see him wrestling with the success of a big container, but he's realizing it's empty, and so he needs to prioritize his friendship with Sally and Lightning McQueen and not just be about what he's doing around the world, but to fill his container up. Because there's plenty of people with a lot of money and multiple houses, but their container's empty. They don't have the richness of relationship with a spouse and with children, grandchildren, et cetera, and then, of course, the Kingdom of God and what you're doing for the Lord.

And then thirdly and last, and perhaps most important, 68% of Americans don't have an up-to-date will. What is that if not evidence of we're not planning to give our container and its contents away? Literally there's no plan. You're going to die; there's no plan. The probate courts are going to decide. It's all going to be determined by, you know, the judges who gets what because you didn't plan to give your container and the contents away. But death is the only certainty of life. This is the only thing you can guarantee is going to happen. You're going to die. It's been on the move since the moment you were born. There's a day appointed.

And Lightning McQueen, in the end of the movie we see him, in the third film -- I love it -- he starts to take more joy in this young race car Cruz Ramirez, in her success than his own. He's giving away all of his secrets. He's not even caring that he's not racing anymore. He's her crew chief, cheering her on to go on and do all the things that she's meant to do, and he's now finally at that most important, most fulfilling spot of saying, Hey, I've still got races in my life, but I'm more excited about how I can give my life away to help others. And I think that's kind of the power of looking at your life in those three stages.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that -- and to hear Cars applied to just that beautiful Gospel picture of receiving and giving, that's really cool.

So here's what I'm thinking, Levi. I love that. And so someone might be listening and they'd be like, Well, but I'm in my 20s, this doesn't apply to me yet. Or someone listening, I'm in my 70s and I wish I had known this then. What would you say to either of those, the 20-something or the 70-something? Do you have to catch this at just the right time for it to work?

Levi Lusko: No. Well, no, first of all, of course. To the 20-year-old, I would say this. Did you know that quarter-life crises more common than midlife crisis? In fact, three out of four early 20s say they experience a massive sense of disorientation. And it makes sense. Coming out of college -- you've had this fake little life. This is where you get your food, this is where you live, this is your dorm, this is your sorority, this is life. Then all of a sudden the rug's pulled out from under you at graduation, it's like, welcome to adulthood. And it's like now you just got to figure it all out. And especially if you played a sport. Think about that. You set aside that jersey for the last time, and so much of your life's gone into that, now where does your identity come from? So that makes sense.

But then to the later life crisis, which is exactly as common as midlife. So someone empty nest, someone in retirement, someone in that '60s, '70s, later life is just as destabilizing because you've given your life to a career, and now what are you going to do? You know, how do you fill your days? It's a proven fact just sitting around on a beach is a way to feel a real lack of fulfillment. So what are you going to give your life to in your glory days, in your golden years?

And I would say if you feel like, well, I'm 20, so I don't need it yet, I would say to you better to understand and have a plan for the beats of life before you get there. So think through these containers. Be aware of the season you're in, the one you're about to go into. Go to the ant. Think about the ants laying up for the -- you know, what I mean? All those sorts of things from the Bible.

And then to the person who's 70 goes, oh, gosh, I wish I would have known this when I was 18, I would say, well, the Chinese proverb says the best time to plant a tree would be ten years ago. But the second-best time to plant a tree would be today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Levi Lusko: So sure, it would have been great if you knew this then, but you know it now, so start making plans today that are wise.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's so good. That's so good and so encouraging.

All right. I have so many things swirling around in my mind. I'm so glad you've written the book because --

Levi Lusko: You said swirling. That makes me happy --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. You're right.

Levi Lusko: -- because it's like a spiral, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. It is. It's a spiral in all the best ways, a delightful one. And so I'm glad you've written the book, Levi, because that's where we're going to go to really dive into this.

But we are going to get to our last question. I'm trying to think of our listeners right now who probably feel like I do, like, okay, wow, this is a lot to process, and I want to process this because I want to appropriate what I'm learning here and live well. Whether I'm in the spiral or whether I'm in a peaceful season, I just -- or whatever, I just want to do this well through the grace of God.

So when you were in the midst of your spiral, I know you did some practical things to help you through that spiral season, and I'm assuming that you probably still do some of these today. So could you just advise us on some of the spiritual disciplines or rhythms that you did then or do now and how we can also implement those in our lives.

Levi Lusko: Of course. To the person who's in it right now, I would just say -- you said it earlier -- you are not going to always feel like you feel right now. Take it easy. Jump to conclusions. Don't make a crazy decision in the storm. Stick to the plan of a saner moment. Don't doubt in the shade what you believed in the sunshine. So for me, even though I was having all these questions, I didn't make any knee-jerk reactions. I'm not going to quit my job, I'm not going to get a divorce, I'm not going to get a tattoo, I'm not going to make any big decisions, long decisions, based on what might be a temporary feeling. So that's number one.

Secondly I'd say just be kind to yourself. I don't know how to say it other than that. We tend to be so kind to other people, so hard on ourselves, beating ourselves up. Let me just encourage you with this. You've never been here before. How could you possibly be good at it? When my son tried to tie his shoes, I wasn't like, How could you not know how to do this? I'm like, Of course, you've never done it. This is your first time. Come on, buddy.

So to you who are 40 for the first time, 60 for the first time, 18 for the first time listening to this, you've never been here before, how could you be good at this? But God is in your past, your present, and your future. He's the Alpha and the Omega. He has been here before. He suffered in all points as we do, yet without sin. So let him coach you, let him guide you and cheer yourself on.

As far as spiritual disciplines, fasting, time silent, breathing, time with the Word -- I light a candle and open up the Bible and let God speak to me -- journaling, telling friends -- picking up the phone and telling friends when I'm having a hard day, speaking God's truth over my own life, listening to a podcast like this instead of binge watching or doomscrolling, those are all the little things that are going to make big difference in our life over time.

If your listeners go to blessedarethespiraling.com, they can read the first two chapters for free. And that way if they don't like the sample, they don't have to go to aisle 17 and get the chimichanga. But if it does bless them, they can get the rest of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, our people, you heard him. If you're in a spiral, don't jump to conclusions. Stick to the plan of what was a saner moment. You know that saner moment. Think about that plan. No knee-jerk reactions.

KC Wright: I liked it that he actually reminded us to be kind to ourselves. You don't hear that too often. But we need to be kind to ourselves because we've never been here before, so how can we be good at it? But here's truth. God is in your present, past, and future. Breaking news, he's got you. He will coach and guide you. Yes, even now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's the truth.

And, you know, also Levi said that -- he gave us a lot of those practical things, KC, which I appreciated, like reminding us of the basics like fasting, silence, breathing, being in the Word, journaling, talking with your friends. And then just, of course, we can never forget, we got to speak truth on our own lives. I mean, it was so good.

KC Wright: So good. So good.

All right, our people, you can get his book. A link will be on the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/368. And you can also read the full transcript there. Aren't you thankful? Plus, he told you that you can read the first two chapters for free --

Jennifer Rothschild: Nice.

KC Wright: -- at the book website -- at the book website.

Jennifer Rothschild: Website.

KC Wright: Simply --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it wasn't that simple. But keep going.

KC Wright: Hold on.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, we are not editing. Keep going.

KC Wright: Plus, he told you that you can read the first two chapters for free at the book website at blessedarethespiraling.com. We will also link you to his book website at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/368.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well done, KC. And you know what? I was laughing because I think even Levi alluded to this. That, like, if you read the first couple of chapters and you don't like the book, well, then you can just spend your cash on something else. But you are going to love this book. You're going to want this book and you're going to need this book. I do.

All right, our people, this one is a wrap. So until next week, remember that whatever you face and however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's even without GPT -- Chat GPT. You know, we should call it CheatGPT. You know how many people use it in school to cheat? Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Yeah, that's not -- that's not good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Not good.