4:13 Podcast: Can I Take Joy Seriously? With Tim Hawkins

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, 4:13ers, this is Jennifer, and I just need to ask you something. Can I please hear from you? You guys have gotten to hear from me for so many years on The 4:13, but I wanna hear from you. I need to hear your heart. I wanna know what you care about. And here's how we're gonna do it...

I have got a survey waiting for you. It is on your Show Notes. Whatever podcast platform you are listening on right now, you can find your Show Notes and there will be a link to a survey. It'll take you three to five minutes, and it'll just help me know what's in your heart, what's in your head, what your thoughts are, what your hopes for, what you enjoy, because really we want to make the 4:13 Podcast exactly what meets your needs.

So go to your podcast player. You can always find, though, Show Notes at 413podcast.com, and let me hear your voice as you click on that survey and take five minutes to share with me. Now here's the podcast.

Tim Hawkins: It could be a little intimidating, but people were so nice. I think that other comics that are pros are -- they respect you for trying and they know that you're -- they're going to do whatever they can to help. And it's only when you get better than they are, then that's when they start hating you and treating you -- that's when they stop laughing at you, is when you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: You're like, ooh, I've made it.

Tim Hawkins: If you're in a club and you're -- and then the comedians are laughing in the back, you know you're bad. But when they're not laughing, that's when you know you've made it.

Group of Women: Episode 413! (Cheering)

Jennifer Rothschild: It's here, Episode 413 of the 413podcast.com, and, oh, this is a special episode. And I'm so glad you're here, because I just had to have one of my favorite people with us. Tim Hawkins. Yes. You know Tim. He is a hilarious comedian, and he puts together just such keen observation, along with the most hilarious and clever song parodies. And he keeps it all clean and smart. I tell you, I laugh so hard at his shows.

But guess what? You get the behind-the-scenes Tim. He is still just as keen, just as clever, and just as funny. But you know what? You get to see into Tim Hawkins' heart today. And Tim and I, we even talked some C.S. Lewis. Because, as C.S. Lewis wrote, "Joy is the serious business of heaven."

So, our friends, let's get serious about joy today on Episode 413.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends, Episode 413.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've been shoved in the closet for seven years together.

KC Wright: (Singing) Under the stairs.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Under the stairs doing The 4:13. And here's the thing. It has been a wonderful experience --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And things are about to change around here. You're still going to be part of the podcast, it's still going to be the same great content, but it will be a new look and a new sound. And so for the next month we're going to send you over to Spotify to listen to some of the best episodes of the 4:13 Podcast, because I've curated playlists for you. Okay?

So you're going to get to listen to playlists on whatever you need. Fresh starts, like, what to say when you talk to yourself and how to start new habits. Or perhaps it's relationships, whether it's with adult kids or marriage or just a difficult forgiveness situation.

Or perhaps you need to listen to some mental health episodes for the month of August to just kind of help you get your mental health in better condition, because I've got episodes on depression and anxiety and hope and -- such good stuff.

But you know what my favorite playlist is that I created?

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Audio pictures.

KC Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I have curated all my favorite audio pictures that is unique to the 4:13 Podcast and to what we do around here. I take you on all my favorite trips, to England, to Italy, to the Badlands, camping with my family. It's so fun.

KC Wright: So even if you have a staycation this year --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: -- you can mentally travel the world --

Jennifer Rothschild: You can.

KC Wright: -- via Spotify.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can.

Okay. So even if you don't typically listen to The 4:13 on Spotify, there is a free version. You just pop over there. And here's why. Because for the month of August, we're doing a refresh around here, and so we will not have any brand-new live episodes until the first of September.

But because you are following the podcast -- remember? -- that means you have hit "follow," so you'll be notified when the podcast is dropping and you'll be the first to know what the new look, the new sound, maybe even a new name.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. There's a lot. So make sure you have filled out that survey if you did not. I've invited you to do that the last couple of weeks, and I'm inviting you one more time. On your Show Notes where you're listening, you will see there is a link to a survey. It'll take you three to five minutes for you to fill it out. And KC and I really want to hear from you. You've heard from us for seven years. We need to hear from you.

KC Wright: It's time for you to speak up.

Jennifer Rothschild: We need to hear your heart. Okay?

KC Wright: We do.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do.

Now, I waited for this 413 episode to have Tim Hawkins. He's one of my favorite people.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But KC told me something right before we started that I said, "Oh, you got to just share this before Tim Hawkins." Because, my people --

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- he was on ChatGPT.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Now, can I just set it up for you?

KC Wright: You set it up.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm setting it up. Okay.

KC Wright: Go ahead.

Jennifer Rothschild: So he'd had a -- you know, he's a pastor. He had one of those days, right? He had been doing food pantry, he was dealing with some stuff around the church like getting trees taken down. And, you know, he's also trying to prepare messages, et cetera. His worship leader texts and says, "Hey, can you give me an idea of what the message is?" Well, he's in a mood.

And so instead of him telling her what the message is, he goes to ChatGPT and he says, "Give me some of the most hilarious, weirdest sermon titles you can think of," so he could send them to his worship leader.

All right, KC, share with us what our artificial intelligent comedian came up with for the best sermon titles for the weirdest, most hilarious sermons ever.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. Here's one. "The Devil Made Me Do It, Said Nobody Accountable Ever." "Jesus Took the Wheel, But You're Still Speeding." "How To Miss God's Will in Ten Easy Steps." Ooh. "Your Miracle Is Not in the Refrigerator." "When God Says 'Go' and You Say 'Hold On.'" "The Church of The Perpetually Offended."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

KC Wright: Uh-huh. "Faith, Feelings, and Facebook Arguments."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

KC Wright: "The Prodigal Son and Other Terrible Financial Decisions." "Quit Rebuking the Devil and Set an Alarm Clock." This was one of my favorites. "Your Flesh is a Terrible Life Coach.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, that's true.

KC Wright: Which out of all of them, that could really be a great sermon.

Jennifer Rothschild: Actually true.

KC Wright: "The Problem Isn't the Devil, It's Your Notifications." "How to Be Spirit-Led Without Being Weird." And then here's the last one. "Did Not Our Hearts Burn Within Us, Or Was That Taco Bell?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Good job, ChatGPT. That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what would be really funny is to come up with worship songs for each of those.

Okay. Anyway, I'm sure our next guest -- last guest of The 4:13 -- and by the way, as I say "last" -- any time I say the word "last," people, that does not mean we're done. Does not mean we're done. It just means we're refreshing and we're about to transition to a new name, new look, new sound. So in honor of the last 4:13 as we know it, let's hear from the funniest guy I know, Tim Hawkins.

All right. KC and I already talked about just how excited we are to have Tim Hawkins, because he is -- and I'm now speaking to you, Tim. You are one of our very favorites. So I'm grateful you're with us. Before we even get into all the comedy you're doing, I want to know this. Tim Hawkins growing up, were you funny as a kid? Like, I have a grandchild who thinks he is hilarious, and sometimes he is.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I want to know, were you one of those kids who actually was funny or thought you were funny or -- give us a feel for that.

Tim Hawkins: Oh, man, I -- well, being a redheaded -- what was the -- what'd they used to call me? Opie Taylor, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: It's like, didn't really have looks to fall back on, I had to rely on other things to get attention. So I don't know, I guess I was just a big fan of the culture. I love music and movies and TV and all that kind of stuff, and I did a lot of, like, impressions and things like that. So that would be kind of, oh, he's the voice guy, or he's this -- you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- kind of that. Yeah, I would just -- I would learn to use being funny to kind of break the ice, and kind of that was my identity. And I enjoyed it too. It wasn't like I was trying -- I don't know. I just really enjoyed it. We had a very fun family, and we had then -- and I thought American culture was very entertaining. I fell in love with it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and it was -- so what you're saying, it's just a natural outgrowth of your DNA. It's just how you were wired. It wasn't an effort.

Tim Hawkins: I guess so.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: Hey, and, Jennifer, you know, I'm -- when I say this, I'm not lying. I'm not -- I'm not the funniest person in my family. I mean --

Jennifer Rothschild: Who is?

Tim Hawkins: -- I just write it down. Everybody. Oh, my gosh.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do agree.

Tim Hawkins: Heather's hilarious. It's just they have their own style and they -- and we laugh a lot and -- so I'm not very vocal at home. I have to be entertained too.

Jennifer Rothschild: You and I have had a chance to be together when you weren't on stage, and that's one of the things I liked about you. It's not like you're always on, the person you're on stage.

Tim Hawkins: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're still the authentic person on stage that you are off stage. But, yeah, you're quiet, you listen. In fact, that's something I want to talk to you about in a minute. Because you're an observer. Okay? I can tell you are an observer. So I want to go there in a sec.

But before we do -- so you grew up, you're a funny kid, just because it's how you're wired. But I'm curious, then, when did, like, you go, oh, wait a minute, like, I might be good at this and I might try this professionally? Like, do you remember, like, when you made that transition, what your first official gig was and, like, what it was like? I'm just curious, because everybody has to have a, quote/unquote, start.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. I think there's two. Because, I mean, I started in -- you got the comedy club scene and then you have the church scene. So I remember my friend Stacy Mears calls me up, she goes, "Hey, Tim, can you be funny for five minutes at our youth group in my boyfriend's basement?"

And I'm like, "Sure I can." And I hung up the phone and I'm like, "I don't have anything to say. I have no material." So I was like, "All right." So that was kind of the -- somebody just asked me, you know.

And then the comedy club thing was that they had these open mic nights where you can do three to five minutes for anybody who wants to go -- calls in early enough and gets their name on a list.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Tim Hawkins: So I don't -- you know, it was -- I knew I wanted to do it, but there was no manual for it, there's no, like, school -- right? --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right, right.

Tim Hawkins: -- that kind of leads you and walks you through. So you just kind of have to figure out on your own. That's one of the beauties of it, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- just finding, okay, where does this -- where can you do it. And actually you can do comedy anywhere there's a group of people that are willing to, you know, listen to what you have to say, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and I wonder what that was like for you, because you're around -- in that setting, I would think, with comedy clubs, you are around comedians who are far more experienced than you. And were you intimidated at all? Or, like, how did you manage the, ooh, that didn't go over well, the sense of failure?

Or, I mean, did it -- or were you just super resilient, like, okay, no big there. Good, I'm getting there?

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: How was that for you?

Tim Hawkins: Well, that was when -- it kind of proved to me this is where -- probably a good path, because when I would fail at it, I still wanted to do it. There's no -- there was no thought in my mind that I was going to quit. It's like, okay, what do I need to change to make this better? Because I know -- after you get that first laugh, you're done. You're chasing that feeling for the rest of your life. So you're kind of stuck.

So that's what -- and that's what I tell young people, like, that's usually a good kind of a sign for you to know this is what you should be doing, is when you fail but you still -- there's never a question of quitting. And that's not true with everything that I've tried. Especially sales and all this other stuff, I'd fail and I'd want to quit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: I just didn't -- it wasn't in me. So it could be a little intimidating, but people were so nice. I think that other comics that are pros are -- they respect you for trying and they know that they're going to do whatever they can to help. And it's only when you get better than they are, then that's when they start hating you and treating you -- that's when they stop laughing at you, is when you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: You're like, ooh, I've made it.

Tim Hawkins: If you're in a club and the comedians are laughing in the back, you know you're bad. But when they're not laughing, that's when you know you've made it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's awesome. That's awesome. But what a great life principle too, that we think that we're only supposed to succeed at things we're good at and that the affirmation is success.

But what you're saying here is pay attention. When you fail and you want to do it again and you want to keep trying and learning, that is likely an affirmation that you're in the right path.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. It's powerful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that, Tim.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah, that's powerful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Okay, bro. So I have heard you say in the past that your comedy is not about being witty, but about connecting emotionally with your audience. So explain that and tell us how that, like, shapes your writing, what you choose to do in your stand-up.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. Well, when I first started out, I tried to write what I thought was funny. And then I would notice that -- as in the show, I would talk about just stuff about, like, Mom or Dad or things that she actually used to say, people laughed harder. And I realized that the goal is to relate to your audience. That's when the biggest laughs come.

It doesn't have to be, like you said, witty, or you're not -- it's not a magic trick. It's something that you're just sharing your experience and other people will laugh. Like me and you will talk about a time we had. You know, okay, me and you and Phil and Heather went out to dinner and this was said and done.

And it's not -- it's just that we remember it together. There's a strength and connection in those shared experiences. And people laugh a lot of times not only 'cause they relate, because they're -- they laugh out of a sense of relief. It's like, oh, I'm not alone here.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tim Hawkins: I'm not the only one who does this, right? I'm not -- right, I'm not the only one who says this phrase or had a mom that did this or a dad that said that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: And I think that as a speaker, performer, whatever, there are people that go to the next level as far as connecting with their audiences. There are a lot of comedians out there that are good joke writers, but at the end you don't really feel like you know who they are. Because they just tell good jokes --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Tim Hawkins: -- but you're like, okay, I don't feel like this is -- I know you any better or -- you know, you're great, I just can't -- there wasn't that level of connection there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and you as the audience don't feel known.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think that is the intangible that I experience, like, when I get to listen to you, is because I feel like, oh, yeah, he gets me.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because we're all the same. I mean -- in fact, one of my principles in writing and speaking is to never forget that your audience is always going read and listen autobiographically. Essentially -- we don't mean for it to be, but it's about us.

Like, I'm the audience, it's about me. And so I want to learn about what you're saying or experience what you're giving me, but it's really because I get it. I want to be seen, I want to be known. I think that's just human nature.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah, the more universal -- I mean, the more specific you are with your life and your funny observations, I think the more universal it is.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm kind of lazy. I don't really do topical humor, like, you know, do new -- you know, jokes about the news, because the next week it's not going to be relevant anymore.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, true.

Tim Hawkins: So I think that, yeah, I'm trying to hit on the human experience as a whole as much as possible. And, yeah, there are some jokes and bits I can't do anymore because they're just not -- you know, you don't do as many COVID jokes --

Jennifer Rothschild: No. They timed out.

Tim Hawkins: -- now as you used to. Right, they kind of timed out. I mean, you can still reference it because it was such a huge thing, but -- yeah, yeah. But the human experience and marriage and things like that, that's stuff that'll last forever.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, never grows old.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So now here you are, you do have something new that's streaming available. And we're going to tell everybody specifically and have links, by the way, where they can stream. But I know it's Amazon Prime, et cetera. Okay. It's called Fist Bump.

Tim Hawkins: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. That -- I can't even imagine where it came from, so I don't want you to disclose too much if you don't want to. But what's the point of Fist Bump?

Tim Hawkins: No, it's just -- you know, I usually get titles from -- I'll look over the show and say, okay, what's kind of a funny -- like, a bit that has a line in it that might sound like a good title? And Fist Bump just comes out of that.

Coming out of COVID, just saying it's nice to see faces and shake hands again, and just saying that the guys who wouldn't shake your hand during COVID, they would just fist bump you like they were saving the planet. And I'm like, yeah, so COVID can't get around the back of the knuckles? I mean, it's just playing on that ridiculous, you know, pseudoscientific thinking that everybody was tossing around like they were geniuses.

And then I do -- one of the lines was I just did the regular bump, like I'm bumping them with my booty. Like, it's just -- it's just ridiculous. So, yeah, that's where Fist Bump comes from.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I love it. I love it. And, yeah, there is a great sense of relief and humor now that we look back and we're on this side of COVID. I'm grateful.

Okay. And so I mentioned earlier that I think you are an observer. So even though I can't see, I can detect in you, in the quietness, I can tell you are soaking it in and observing.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So because I think you're constantly studying life and people, I'm curious, then, how you decide which moments that you can turn into comedy. And, like, let's also talk about that, like, with your family. You know, are they cool with it always?

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah, well, they're cool -- well, not only -- I think with my family -- like, there's no courtesy laughter with your family. So when you make them laugh, it's earned. You did a good thing.

But I don't -- in the old days, I used to sit down and try to grind out, once again, what I thought was funny. Now I just live my life and just -- I have my radar up. Like, if me and you will be talking about something and the concept or something will be said, I'm like, okay, that's funny, that concept or that premise is funny.

So I do less writing now, but I use more of it on stage, if that makes sense. Before I look at my old notebooks and, you know, 99% of it is just unusable. Just not even close. Just embarrassing. But that's the thing. You have to fight through the cringe, they say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: You fight through the cringe. And I'm glad I didn't quit. Because then you start finding your own voice and then -- like, now I feel -- when I do shows now, I think they're better than they've ever been. And not because -- and I'm not grinding and trying to prove myself. It's like, I think this is good. And I'm not here for me. I'm here for the one person who really needs this, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- and not trying to break this guy in the front with his arms crossed who's been frowning the whole time. Hey, dude, I have no control. I'm here to serve and to give laughs and not get them. And then that makes it a lot more fun. If you're using your art for something else, then it's gonna -- you're gonna get real unhappy real quick.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, it's just --

Tim Hawkins: It's, like, stick to what you love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, amen. Okay, that's a good word. Well, I used to tell my boys, selfish people aren't happy people.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And bottom line is if it's all about you and you're trying to get laughs rather than give laughs, you're right --

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- unhappy. It's unsatisfying. Self cannot satisfy self.

Tim Hawkins: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Tim. So speaking of your shows now -- and I might -- I do agree -- comedy is one of my things. I love it. And so I don't want to make you feel awkward, but you are absolutely one of my favorites. And that's not just because I like you. Like, I just love your skill and your craft.

And so one of the things you do that I love, and you're known for, is parodying songs. And so you play keys, you play guitar. And you do sing well, dude. So talk to me about that.

Tim Hawkins: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that you parody songs. I want to know if you grew up musical, if you had lessons, et cetera. And then what is it about a song that you might hear, a popular song that you think, oh, that'd be funny?

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. Well, yeah, there you go. I mean, that's -- a lot of songs that I do parody are just excuses to perform them because I like them.

Jennifer Rothschild: You like music, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: I just -- I like it. So I think that when you're doing a parody, it has to have some payoff. It's not just, oh, it sounds like something else. I want it to have a point and to have a punchline. And if I write a parody and the second verse isn't as good as the first, then I'll drop it and I'll just make it shorter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

Tim Hawkins: But now -- I don't know. Music is -- that inspires me more than anything, more than even comedy does. It's always -- I love the energy. I think it's -- I hired my son Levi. He's my producer now, and we're actually -- I'm finishing up a record of songs that we're going to release in a couple of months probably.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sweet.

Tim Hawkins: And that's got some -- it's got a couple of -- I wrote a song for Heather, I wrote a song for my granddaughter, I wrote some -- there's some funny songs on there, some instrumental songs. So it's going to be just stuff I've wanted to do for a long time, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Tim Hawkins: Isn't that fun?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, way to go. Yeah. Way to go. I love that. And I love Heather, and I'm so glad you've written a song for her.

Tim Hawkins: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is really your secret sauce.

Tim Hawkins: She is. It does take a team, and it does -- you know, you've got Phil, I've got Heather. It is -- I don't know -- it wouldn't be possible without them.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Tim Hawkins: I mean, I could do comedy, but come home to absolutely nothing and -- just shambles and chaos. She keeps it all together, and it's -- my gosh, it's fun to grow something with other people. And sometimes we got to fall, and it's good to know there's people we can fall back on and that love us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Tim Hawkins: Tell us the truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then you enjoy the fruit of your labor together. And may it be sweet fruit the rest of y'all's days.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's -- topics that you've dealt with. Okay. And parodies. Like, you've dealt with fast food, you've dealt with fishing. Okay, hilarious. But I'm curious, are there any topics that you would just be like, no, I'm never gonna touch that in a song? I wanna know.

Tim Hawkins: Well, there you go. I don't get into a bunch of, like, church dogmatic theological stuff. I'll touch on the quirky things that church people do. A lot of hand sanitizer --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- stuff around the church or the way we raise our hands when we're in worship or whatever. That's fair game. I don't get into that. I don't like any kind of body imaging, body shaming stuff. If it's me, that's fine. I can shame my own body all I want. But I don't like getting into kind of, like, obese jokes or anything like that. I don't think that's --

Jennifer Rothschild: Not cool, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: It's just not cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no.

Tim Hawkins: To me, yeah, it's just not. So -- and I don't -- and then political stuff, I'll jump in and jump out. I'll make little comments here and there, but that's just not my forte.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: My forte is Chick-fil-A and -- right? -- and yoga pants and all that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Amen.

Tim Hawkins: You know, if they -- people know where to go if they want to get the deeper stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love it. And what it does, Tim, too, it's all unifying. And that's -- there's no othering, there's no divisiveness, and I love that. I think that's why the Lord has just blessed, I mean, besides just your skill.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you said the word "deep," so I want to go deep for a second. Okay?

Tim Hawkins: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I am a C.S. Lewis geek. And one of my favorite quotes, he says, "Joy is the serious business of heaven." Okay. So you bring joy and laughter and release. And I'm curious what you think the spiritual impact of that is and how it might help us live heaven now.

Tim Hawkins: Well, I think -- and C.S. Lewis talks about that in one of his books. He talks about that he saw a biscuit tin or something --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he did.

Tim Hawkins: -- and it took him to a place, I think -- and it took him to a place where just for a moment that -- it was a sense of melancholy or a -- just this sense of joy. And he calls it longing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Tim Hawkins: And I think that I have those things -- and I get chills just talking right now -- where I will -- something will hit me, a smell or a sight or a sound or something, that will take me to a place that I don't even know if I've been before, but I'm -- it recognizes it, and it takes me -- and almost it feels like a slice of heaven. It feels like God is -- he's revealing just a piece, a shadow of what heaven is like, and then it's gone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: So too many people, I think, have given this idea that God is just the justice side of God and the dark side, or whatever you want to call it, the mean side or the one who keeps -- who has rules.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: And then, "Eye has not seen, ear has not heard," just the things he has planned for -- that means something. It's true, and we can't grasp it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: How good he is and how wonderful and how much joy he brings.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Tim Hawkins: So -- and to be a part of that, like -- even, like, when I do these shows and stuff, I mean, there's people going through stuff that I'll never know. I hear some stories about people, well, I had this and that and I listened to your -- or we would just watch your YouTube stuff and all that. I can't grasp that. I feel like I don't have the gratitude enough to be grateful for that enough --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- how special that is coming out of a place where I'm in my early 30s and I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life. And I'm on my third kid and I'm getting fired from jobs because I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. And then he -- you know? And then he brings on this thing that, okay, you do this. This is what I want you to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Wow. I love it, Tim. Well, I do think walking in your calling is bringing a little heaven to earth, you know. And it just so happens that you traffic in the business of joy.

And by the way, yeah, you're right, that biscuit tin picture of C.S. Lewis' longing, it does -- that beautiful ache that is almost never satisfied, which makes you long for it more, you know, I mean, that's -- when I sit and laugh and just have the abandonment of being able to laugh.

You are, I believe, bringing that little bit of heaven to earth, that glimpse of just the beauty of all of it and what it'll be like forever. Yeah, abandonment. Abandonment. I love it.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Wow. Okay. Well, I'm going to ask you two more questions.

This one -- don't want to put you on the spot, but when you mention that Scripture, you know, about no eye has seen, I'm curious, is there any anchor passage for you that your whole life -- and this is not Tim the comedian, this is Tim the human, the Christ follower. Is there any anchor passage that just has always been one that you've gone to or sustained you or been meaningful to you?

Tim Hawkins: Well, you know, I had the old joke that I wrote the wrong verse. Psalm 34:8 is, "Taste and see that the Lord is good. Happy are those who take refuge in him." But I put the wrong verse and it was horrible.

Jennifer Rothschild: What was it?

Tim Hawkins: It was Psalm 38:7.

Jennifer Rothschild: What did it say?

Tim Hawkins: "I have a painful disease in my loins."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

Tim Hawkins: So that's -- I don't -- that was a bad memory.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I'd say.

Tim Hawkins: That's the opposite of longing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah, but that was it for a long time.

And then Heather and I have kind of -- it's Philemon. It talks about refreshing the saints, refreshing of the soul of the saints. That's been one that's been kind of our filter just as a family to -- we're here.

I think God has equipped us to refresh people, to host parties, to have people over, to let them live with us if they need a place to stay, whatever. And that's where we both are. Heather's made such a beautiful home, and I just work as hard as I can to make -- you know, to kind of give her the free rein to do what she needs to do and to make things, you know, welcoming and -- you know?

And I think it makes a difference. And we're not perfect parents at all, but we're talking the other day, like, how did our kids turn out so good?

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you, Lord.

Tim Hawkins: And I don't -- and I think it's -- I think one of the reasons is that we did not get freaked out by results. We just said -- we just tried to be as real as possible, love them as much as we could, and not freak out if they had doubts or if they had -- you know, if they were getting tattoos or -- you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right, right.

Tim Hawkins: We love you no matter what and we're here to help you figure this life out. And we don't have all the answers. That is -- we're here to partner with you to figure this stuff out --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- when you get to be an adult. And, you know, it's -- they love the Lord, and we're thankful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I can attest they really have all turned out just beautifully, either because of or in spite of you. Either one, doesn't matter.

Tim Hawkins: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Lord is good, right? The Lord is good.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I always tell Phil, we do not take credit for our kids' success and we do not take responsibility for when they choose to blow it. We just don't. The outcomes are not the point. It's the daily and the love and the -- yeah, humility.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. It's the long haul, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is the long haul. Okay. Well, speaking of the long haul, this one's come to an end, so we're gonna hit our last question here, Tim.

All right. I know everybody listening clearly is not an aspiring comedian. All right? But you are a comedian. And all of us, I believe, have the responsibility to live out our calling well, whatever it is -- okay? -- and to communicate clearly for the sake of just living out our faith well in front of people.

So what kind of advice would you give to -- let's say it's an aspiring comedian or just somebody walking in their calling, and they're wanting to build their career, whatever their lane is, but they don't want to sacrifice -- in this world there's a lot of pressure, and they don't want to sacrifice their voice or their virtues or their values. What advice would you give them?

Tim Hawkins: I would say just be that same person that makes your friends laugh and your family laugh in the living room. You don't have to be something else. Once again, people laugh harder if they can relate to what you're talking about. So as much as you can talk about, much as you can land on truth, how you really feel about things, how you really see things, that's going to take you a lot farther than any kind of bad language or whatever.

People want to connect. And the more you connect, the more successful you're going to be. And live your life, make notes, and tell strangers. There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. No matter what you do, our friends, you be the same person on and off stage. Because think about it, you have a stage, I have a stage. We all have a stage. It's that place in life where we do our thing or hang with our people.

Whatever it is that we do, we need to land on truth, like Tim said, because people want to connect. And the more that you connect with truth, the more successful you're going to be at whatever it is you do. I just really thought that that advice, like, it applies to all of us, no matter what it is that we do.

KC Wright: 100% agree. And I think we would all benefit from writing down our everything, as Tim said. Live your life, take notes, and tell strangers. You know, that could be on a tombstone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it really could be.

KC Wright: Those are really good words to live by.

We will have a transcript of this entire conversation on the Show Notes. Plus, we will connect you to his latest special. It's called Fist Bump. So you and your people can watch it and laugh out loud together. Show Notes are at 413podcast.com/413 --

Jennifer Rothschild: 413.

KC Wright: -- or on whatever podcast player you're listening to. It's the 4:13 Podcast on The 4:13. Oh, my goodness, what's going on in the Matrix?

And now I'm going to say our cheesy ending --

Jennifer Rothschild: Cheesy ending.

KC Wright: -- the cheesy ending we never ever change, for the very last time. Remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can!

Jennifer Rothschild: We did it, KC!

KC Wright: We did it!

Jennifer Rothschild: Episode 413. High five.

KC Wright: Fist bump.

Jennifer Rothschild: Fist bump. Yeah.

All right. Go to Spotify for the month of August. Stay tuned. Make sure you follow the podcast.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's gonna be so good when we come back live in September.

KC Wright: Everyone's getting Botox. It's a facelift. You get a facelift, you get a facelift. That's biblical. He's coming back for a church without spot and wrinkle --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, dude, that was --

KC Wright: -- so there you go.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Awaken Delight? With Stephanie Rousselle

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, 4:13ers, this is Jennifer, and I just need to ask you something. Can I please hear from you? You guys have gotten to hear from me for so many years on The 4:13, but I wanna hear from you. I need to hear your heart. I want to know what you care about. And here's how we're gonna do it.

I have got a survey waiting for you. It is on your Show Notes. Whatever podcast platform you are listening on right now, you can find your Show Notes and there will be a link to a survey. It'll take you three to five minutes, and it'll just help me know what's in your heart, what's in your head, what your thoughts are, what your hopes for, what you enjoy, because really we want to make the 4:13 Podcast exactly what meets your needs.

So go to your podcast player -- you can always find, though, Show Notes at 413podcast.com -- and let me hear your voice as you click on that survey and take five minutes to share with me.

Now here's the podcast.

Stephanie Rousselle: When we aim to make God our delight, that means we aim to taste his deliciousness, spiritually speaking. You know, like discovering that the presence of God is flavorful, that the love of God is intoxicating, that the glory of God is enthralling. Because, you know, I think Scripture doesn't call us to a disembodied experience of God. Feasting on the Lord, it's for our five senses as well as it is for our soul, right? And so coming to Scripture and understanding it from that perspective.

Jennifer Rothschild: Delighting in God changes everything. It changes how you experience faith, relationships, circumstances, and even how you see yourself. You can experience Psalm 37:4 as your daily delightful reality. Do you know what that means? Well, you are about to. Because on today's episode, author and Bible teacher Stephanie Rousselle is going to connect scriptural and theological truths to your everyday life.

Now, this is Stephanie's first book, and yours truly, me, I had the privilege of writing the foreword. This is about to awaken delight, so buckle up and get ready to learn about delight.

KC, the alarm clock is ringing. It's time to awaken delight.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey friends. That's KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And you got it, it's two friends and one topic and zero stress here in the podcast closet. And you know our goal for the 4:13 Podcast for the last seven years has been to help you and equip you, because you are capable, through Christ, of being exactly what he's called you to be and doing exactly what he's created you to do through the power of Christ in you.

And that has been our goal. And we are heading up to our last episode of The 4:13, 413.

KC Wright: Well, the last episode of the 4:13 Podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Titled --

KC Wright: Titled.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- 413.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: We are not done, we are not quitting.

KC Wright: Because I'm getting anxiety.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no anxiety for KC. (Whispering) I can't handle it if he has anxiety.

Anyway, we are not doing that, we are not quitting.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: But we are about to do something very fun and transition. And you guys who have been listening know that we want you to be a part of it.

And part of the way we want you to be a part -- you heard at the beginning I invited you to please engage in this survey that we're doing, because we want to hear your voice. We want to know your heart, because that will help us craft this transition of the podcast to make sure it meets your needs.

We're going to get a new look, new sound, but it's going to be the same great content. It's just going to be packaged a little differently, and I don't want you to miss a thing.

So you also know, if you don't already, we want you to follow the podcast. On whatever podcast platform you're listening, you will see a button that says, "Follow." And all that means is when you press it, you will get notified every time a podcast drops. And that means even when we have our update with our new look, new sound, and same great content, you'll still be notified.

And we want to make sure you don't miss a thing because, y'all, it's gonna be so good.

KC Wright: Woot, woot, woot, woot.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's gonna be so good. And, in fact, next week, Episode 413 --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- we have a very special guest. Oh, my gosh, I cannot wait for you to hear this person.

KC Wright: Oh, goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, and one more thing I want to tell you.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Spotify. If you're not listening on Spotify, I want you to know that during the month of August, when we are not live with The 4:13, while we're busy refreshing around here, I have curated some Spotify playlists for you. Now, here's what that means...

You go to Spotify -- and by the way, don't worry if you're not familiar with it. There is a free version. You are going to be able to engage with these Spotify playlists. That means I've curated playlists that are topical. So, like, if you want to deal with mental health or relationships or getting a fresh start.

KC Wright: I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I've even got some of my audio pictures in a playlist.

KC Wright: Oh, some of my favorite episodes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that way you can travel even if you don't get to leave home --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because you can just put your earbuds in and you are off to Italy or England or wherever else I'm taking you on the audio pictures. Okay, so lots of good stuff coming up.

But I will tell you, it's summer around here and there's lots of good stuff around here too, like garage sales.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I love garage sales, KC --

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because I'm always getting rid of all the stuff that I don't want.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I know you love garage sales.

KC Wright: Well, my dear friends live in a fancy-schmancy neighborhood, and those are the neighborhoods I'm drawn to, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Those are the best neighbors for garage sales.

KC Wright: They got the good stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they do.

KC Wright: Anyway, my daughter, I can't get her to go to a garage sale even if I paid her money. But you know who will go with me to a garage sale?

Jennifer Rothschild: Who?

KC Wright: My sweet mama.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, good.

KC Wright: So it's our thing, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right, right.

KC Wright: It's our thing.

So anyway, I just want to let you know, J.R., that last weekend I went to the fancy-schmancy yard sale.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

KC Wright: And at four different sales I found J.R. books, Jennifer Rothschild books, in the book pile, which is where I always go first.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Because you get quarter books, 50 cent books --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you do.

KC Wright: -- dollar books. So like --

Jennifer Rothschild: I am honored to be in the garage sale.

KC Wright: And out of allegiance and love for you, my dear mother must buy them all.

Jennifer Rothschild: She bought all the books she probably already has.

KC Wright: She has them, of course. Of course. Because she has attended Fresh Grounded Faith for years. She has all the books. But she gives them to her girlfriends --

Jennifer Rothschild: Aw, I love it.

KC Wright: -- she keeps them in her car, "You need this."

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so sweet.

KC Wright: So anyway, I think -- I've heard that that is a sign of success when you land at a garage sale.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay. Well, I'll take it. I'll take it.

KC Wright: Because they have purchased your book, they have consumed your book --

Jennifer Rothschild: And they're done.

KC Wright: -- and now they're passing it on.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. I love that.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'll take it. Whatever spreads the message. And I think it's quite funny, actually.

But I will say this. Friends who love me, you do buy the books from the garage sale. Because the last place we want to see them is in the garbage can.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: So buy them. And if you go in a bookstore and you see a Jennifer Rothschild book --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- let's just walk over to the shelves, my friends, make sure it's not spine out, make sure it's face out --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- so everyone can see it, and then take a picture of yourself pointing to it saying, "This is the best book I've ever read."

KC Wright: Hey, I'm telling you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey. Just kidding. Just kidding.

KC Wright: -- your latest one, it's all the rage. A lot of people --

Jennifer Rothschild: The Lord --

KC Wright: -- have told me, oh, they love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Lord did something special in "Heaven."

Oh, you know what? I know you didn't mean to do this, but you just made the perfect transition. Because this author that we're about to hear from -- she's now an author. She's been a podcaster, Bible teacher. But she has written her first book. I met her many years ago.

And I don't do this a lot, but I felt led from the Lord to write the foreword for her first book. It's called "Awaken Delight," and it's so good. And it's just something I'm very grateful I get to help multiply this message on, because I have appreciated her ministry, her integrity, and the content of her book.

So she's been on the podcast a long time ago, y'all. She was an atheist who came to Christ from France. She's from France. You're going to love her accent.

So, KC, let's remind our friends who Stephanie Rousselle is, and then I can't wait for you to hear this conversation.

KC Wright: Stephanie Rousselle is a Bible teacher, speaker, host of the Gospel Spice Podcast, and founder of Gospel Spice Ministries. Born and raised in France, Stephanie is a former atheist whose life motto is now "God's Glory, Our Delight." Having lived in four different countries during her lifetime, she now lives with her family in Pennsylvania.

Now -- this is gonna be so good --

Jennifer Rothschild: So good.

KC Wright: -- pour your coffee, get ready. Here is Jennifer and Stephanie.

Jennifer Rothschild: And make sure it's French roast. Okay?

All right, Stephanie, I'm glad to have you back again. And you and I have had lots of conversations this summer, and I'm glad we've gotten to talk. Because as I already told our listeners, I have had the privilege of reading your book "Awaken Delight" and writing the foreword.

So let me get to your backstory first, though. Before we get into the book -- which I love -- I want people to know you better. Even though I will link to our former conversation we've had, I still think we've all slept since then, and so let's talk this. Okay, you grew up as an atheist in France. And so I am curious, and our people need to know, what brought you to the United States and, like, what led you to start teaching Scripture?

Stephanie Rousselle: It's so nice to be with you, Jennifer. I just enjoy being with you so much. And you've been so generous in writing the foreword for "Awaken Delight." And I have to say, that foreword is pretty phenomenal, so thank you for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right.

Stephanie Rousselle: And honestly, like, 30-some years ago, you would have described my life today to me back then, I don't think I would have believed you. I would have had you committed to an asylum or something. Because I did grow up as a very staunch atheist in France, and I came to the U.S. as a foreign exchange student when I was 16 years old. So this was over 30 years ago. I came for my senior year of high school, and my goal was to learn English.

And during that year -- long story short -- I ended up spending the entire year with a host family who were the most delightful Christians, the very first actual flesh-and-blood Christians I had ever met. Everything I had ever heard about Christianity was through the lens of my atheist authors and mentors.

And it taught me that our worldview is definitely shaped by the books we read and the voices we trust, and that sometimes those voices can be a little biased. And I thought that my atheist mentors were giving me the truth about Christianity, but the truth is they really weren't. And so when I got to meet flesh-and-blood Christians, I was flabbergasted by their love and their kindness and their intelligence. I had been taught that to be a Christian, you had to check your brains at the door.

And so long story short, I pretty quickly became convinced of the historical truth of Jesus as a human being having lived, died, and risen. And when you're an atheist, to believe in the historical truth of the resurrection, Jennifer, it's very uncomfortable because it shakes your worldview, your belief system. And so that led me on a quest to discover whether I could trust God. Because I realized his claim on my life was not a halfway measure, it was an all-or-nothing sort of thing. Either you surrender to him fully or you don't at all.

And because I was a control freak, it was very difficult for me to come to a place of trusting God. Because it's one thing that Jesus rose from the dead. At the time it didn't tell me that he was necessarily trustworthy. That was another story of actually what became the foundation for me beginning to teach Scripture a few years later.

Because God in his kindness didn't slap me, didn't fry me on the spot with a lightning bolt as I probably deserved, to be honest, but instead he gently, like a gentleman, with kindness and meekness, challenged my worldview and said, well, you're -- well, he didn't say in an audible voice, right?

But basically my understanding was, okay, you're telling me, Stephanie, that you can't trust me. But how do you know that? How do you know that something or someone is trustworthy until you give them a chance? And that was kind of a good point, right? I mean, you've probably heard the illustration of a chair. You don't know if a chair is stable until you actually sit in it. It can look good, but then you don't really know until you sit in it.

And I like to link that more to chocolate. As you know -- and I know you like dark chocolate too, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Stephanie Rousselle: If you've never tasted really good quality European, French or Swiss or Belgian chocolate, I'd like to humbly suggest that maybe you don't -- you haven't quite experienced why God created cocoa in the first place. I think God invented cocoa so that we could make chocolate out of it, and really good chocolate. But if you haven't tasted that quality of chocolate, maybe you're not a big fan of chocolate, but it could be that you've never really tasted the good thing.

And God challenged me on that, and he kind of hinted at the fact that maybe I should taste and see whether he actually is good before I chose to reject him. And so in his kindness, he allowed me what I like to smile and look back as a trial period, if you will.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Rousselle: I thought I was in charge of my life at the time, and so I gave him one week. I told God, okay, for one week I'm gonna stop fighting you. I'm going to embrace everything I have learned theologically about who you are and I am going to live in faith. And that's me tasting the chocolate and let's see what happens. And at the end of the week, if I don't like it, God, I'm taking my life back and you're out the door. I'm firing you sort of thing. The arrogance, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's funny.

Stephanie Rousselle: That's why God is so kind, because he meets us on our terms, which is incredible to me.

And so during that week, I tasted the chocolate, and of course I fell in love with him. And the freedom of being loved and delighted in, the freedom to actually be able to delight in God and love him back for the first time ever, very imperfectly, with so many flaws. And still to this day, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Stephanie Rousselle: And this was 30-plus years ago. And so I never looked back. I have tasted and seen the chocolate of the goodness of God, and that became the foundation for my teaching. Because as I started looking around -- so I came back to France, married my sweetheart, and then we have traveled all over the world. And everywhere I have been, I have encountered people, Christians mostly, but also active seekers, who don't experience God as delightful and delicious, if I may say. And we can go to the French for that if you want.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I am curious about that. You will need to hit that.

Stephanie Rousselle: So basically, yeah, that's what I do. God has, in his unfathomable, otherworldly kindness, made a calling upon my life that if he had asked my opinion, I would have told him he was crazy. But, you know, he invited me to tell others about the delight in him that he has allowed me to experience. And so, yeah, so that's the story.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so there is this -- because you just mentioned it -- which I love the story, by the way. It reminds me a little bit of C.S. Lewis, the most reluctant convert in England, you know?

Stephanie Rousselle: Oh, so funny you should say that, because that's how -- when I discovered C.S. Lewis a few years later, and especially that part of his story, that's how I started describing myself. I was the most reluctant convert in all of France in my day.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. I love it. Okay. But your French background has helped deepen your understanding of Scripture. So just go there real quickly with the delicious delight thing. Tell us about that.

Stephanie Rousselle: Right. So I'm bilingual, right? I still have an accent that I can't get rid of in English, but I'm a native French speaker, obviously. And so "delight" -- one of the things I love to do is to study Scripture in both languages.

And I think for anyone who speaks another language, there's such a depth in experiencing Scripture in a language other than our own. And we see it so much with the Hebrew and the Greek, the original texts, but I think there's so much to learn about Scripture in any other language you are fortunate enough to be able to speak.

And so for me, that word "delight" is one of those rare words that exudes maybe more depth and deliciousness in French than in English. I have to say that I am a huge fan of the English language. I just absolutely love this language so much. But the French for the word "delight" is the word "délice." And it might remind you of another English word, the word "delicious," right?

Because in French, we have only one word for the two English words "delight" and "deliciousness," and it's the word "délice." And that word "délice" applies to any feast that is for the body, the mind, or the spirit, where beauty plays an element, as in tasting and seeing that the Lord is good. That's a form of beauty.

And so, you know, Psalm 37:4, "Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart," which is kind of the anchor for my book and for my ministry. "Delight yourself in the Lord," in French, God is both delightful and delicious.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that, Stephanie. I love that. That is a paradigm shift for us just English speakers who don't think about the depth of that language nuance. I love that.

Okay. So I was going to ask you about that particular Scripture, and so I'm glad you mentioned it, because I know that does anchor your whole ministry and this book. And we want to have this kind of delight, the deliciousness awakened within us. But I am also curious, are there any other passages of Scripture that help to reshape your understanding of God's affection for you?

Because we can delight in God, yes, out of discipline. Oh, but, boy, does it become a natural desire when we recognize his affection toward us. So are there any Scripture passages that helped ignite that understanding of his affection toward you?

Stephanie Rousselle: So good. Yeah. So definitely Psalm 34:8, which I've mentioned, "Taste and see that the Lord is good." Because when you mix that with "Delight yourself in the Lord," you know, what does delighting God taste like? When we aim to make God our delight, that means we aim to taste his deliciousness, spiritually speaking, discovering that the presence of God is flavorful, that the love of God is intoxicating, that the glory of God is enthralling.

Because, you know, I think Scripture doesn't call us to a disembodied experience of God. Feasting on the Lord, it's for our five senses as well as it is for our soul, right? And so coming to Scripture and understanding it from that perspective.

One of the verses that has helped me the most to do that -- I'll quote maybe two of them quickly. The first is 2 Corinthians 4:6: "For God, who has shone his light in our heart, gave us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face Christ Jesus."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Stephanie Rousselle: And I think that's everything. Because the light of the knowledge of the glory of God -- Paul, when he writes these words, is encompassing all of the cultures of his day. The light was the quest of the Jews, the knowledge was the quest of the Greek, and the glory was the quest of the Romans, right? They didn't want to be forgotten.

If you've been to Rome and you've seen all the architecture and the statues, to be forgotten was the worst thing that could happen to you if you were a Roman.

And so the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, Paul is encompassing all of the quests of all of the cultures he knew in that day. And he says, where do we find that? In the face of Christ Jesus. In his presence.

Because in the Hebrew language, the word "face" and the word "presence" are the same word. Because -- like, you and I are on Zoom right now, so we're not actually together in the same room. But if you want to be in the presence of someone, you have to be face to face with them. In ancient Judaism, obviously, you have to be in the same room.

And so the light of the knowledge of the glory of God is found in the same room as Christ Jesus, in the presence of Christ Jesus. So when we know Jesus, that's when we experience the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, which is delight in him. So that's the first passage. And so I think my entire life is summed up in wanting to know Jesus more. And I know that's so important to you as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Stephanie Rousselle: And the other verse is Philippians 3:10, is, "For my determined purpose is that I may know Christ through the power of his resurrection and the fellowship in his sufferings." And that's where it gets a little harder, because Paul is describing how he used to live a life of arrogance and control and self-centeredness.

And that was my life. I did it from a place of atheism, he did it from a place of legalism, but it was the same idea. And then he counts everything but loss for the glory and the knowledge of knowing Jesus Christ, his Lord, through the power of the resurrection. And that's all of eternity. That is something you and I long for so deeply.

And at the same time, the fellowship in his sufferings. Paul is saying we can't really know Jesus -- the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the presence of Jesus, we can't know that unless we experience a measure of the sufferings of Jesus.

So then the question becomes how do we delight in God, rooted in his delight of us, when we go through hard times, when we experience a measure of the sufferings of Jesus so that we can taste and see his goodness through knowing his presence more. So these are some of the passages I think that have really anchored my awe and my wonder of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, just that little tidbit, I'll say, since we're talking about food, those little bite-sized pieces, they whet my appetite. And I know that our listeners are feeling the same way. And this is what the book will give you.

So I'm so grateful, Stephanie, that you just teased that a little bit, because it does. The thing is, when we taste something good, we want to taste more. And that really is this picture of delighting in God. It is this achy dissatisfaction that is so satisfying, it makes us want more. Okay?

But I am curious about this. Because a lot of times when we're reading Scripture, sometimes we -- it's about us. Okay. Like, it's self-help. Okay? But I sense, from what I have read in your book, that when we delight in God -- okay, when it's about God and our delight in God, it can actually shape our sense of self, our identity. Kind of give us an understanding of how that happens.

Stephanie Rousselle: Yes. Oh, you are absolutely right. I have a very simple way of describing that, right? If God really created us, he is the source of everything, right? So oftentimes in our culture, I've noticed that we start with ourselves, who I am, maybe even what I do. My choices, my actions, my preferences in any area are going to determine who I am. That's what the culture says, right?

So I make a choice, I make a decision, I choose a particular lifestyle or a series of actions and that determines who I am. And then by extension, because I am fully sufficient and capable, I determine reality. I am the author and the definer of truth; therefore, I get to define God. So what I do determines who I am, which in turn determines who God is in my opinion, which is the only viable opinion in this day's culture.

That is, I think, a complete reversal of biblical truth, and it's literally stand -- like, we're trying to stand on our heads or we're trying to walk with our hands. I don't know. It's completely upside down, so no wonder our culture is so confused.

Because I think biblically speaking it's exactly the other way around. Everything starts with who God is. That determines what God does, because his actions are always in perfect complementarity with his character. And so that's the top, who God is and what he does and what he has done for us, past, present, and future. And that determines who we are. And that in turn, when our identity is truly determined by who God is, who he says we are, that determines what we do.

And so, for example, one of my favorite passages that I haven't mentioned is Psalm 1:2-3. And I love to dwell there. My husband is a gardener, and so I love garden illustrations. Can I briefly tell you Psalm 1:2-3?

Jennifer Rothschild: Please.

Stephanie Rousselle: It says, "Blessed is the one whose delight is in the law of the Lord." And that person -- and I'm paraphrasing because I'm not looking at it, I'm just trying to remember it. "That person is like a tree planted by streams of water. He yields fruit in season. His leaf never withers, and whatever they do prospers."

And so if you look at that and you're like, okay, who is God in this passage? God is the water source. He's the life-giving river. That's who he is. And what he does is that he gives us life and he draws near to us by being this river, the streams of water. And then what we do is that we bear fruit in season because that's who we are. We are a blessed tree planted by the stream of the presence of God.

So that's a very simple way to say, okay, what does Scripture tell me about who I am? And when I shape my identity based on what God says, not the other way around, then I am blessed because I am the person whose identity and whose fruit is rooted in who God is and what he does and what he says about me. And so then it becomes a quest of what does God say about us? What does he say about his delight in us?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's beautiful. And how could you not delight in the One who gives you all things and is all things and, therefore, just gives us that ability to bear the fruit. And everything we do prospers. And I love that because that is an emotional prosperity, a spiritual prosperity. Whether it ever shows up in physicality or materialism, that is not the point. There is this beautiful growth based on the life source.

Okay. So I want this. We want this. We all want to delight. All right? But what we do not want, and what some of us have a tendency to do, is to put delight on our spiritual to-do list. Okay, now I've got a new obligation. Okay, I've got to have my quiet time. I got to delight in the Lord. I've got to pray. We don't want that.

So let's talk, Stephanie -- I know you deal with some ancient and some creative habits that help us cultivate delight rather than obligation toward the Lord. So give us some of the -- just a couple of examples of some ancient or creative practices that we can begin to employ to help us grow and delight.

Stephanie Rousselle: Right. Thank you for that.

So I think everything is rooted in what we just said -- right? -- about this matrix of who God is. Because we first begin always by asking him to change the shape of our hearts so that it conforms to his desire for us to delight in him, right? He's the one who gives us that desire. So it always starts by asking him, coming to him to plant that divine delight, to continue the garden illustration. He's the one who plants that delight in us.

And then I think it goes to spending time with Jesus. Because the more we spend time with Jesus, we get to know him more and then we make him known more. So anything that helps us asking God to plant that delight in us, and anything that helps us spend time with Jesus to know him more. And then once that's the framework, then we awaken, we cultivate that delight through classic spiritual disciplines.

Now, the word "discipline," I realize how difficult it is sometimes to hear, because for some people it sounds like punishment and obligation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Rousselle: But actually, I think you of all people know so well how much discipline actually leads to true freedom.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Stephanie Rousselle: Because when a skill becomes second nature through practice, that's when we become truly free to use the skill not as a chore, but as a talent, and even more as a gift to others.

You know, if it really takes 10,000 hours to master a skill, then we need to practice. When it becomes effortless, when it becomes even a blessing for the people we serve through it -- think of a pianist or a painter who has spent countless hours practicing their skill so that we can enjoy the music and the beauty that has been created.

Or a chef, a baking chef. I love to bake, so obviously -- so anything that any -- I think it's not so much -- of course, we need to pray, we need to read Scripture, we need to worship, we need to do all manner of disciplines. But I think what we need to regain is the framework around them. And in that sense, I want to suggest that delight can be the framework that makes these classic disciplines enjoyable again.

Because all of a sudden we realize that these disciplines of reading Scripture, of praying, of worshiping, of silence and solitude, of hospitality, of journaling -- and I list many of them in the book as creative practices, some of the major ones and some minor ones as suggestions -- we realize that they become a pathway to meet God. And the goal isn't the discipline itself. The discipline is a means to an end.

God tells us that he hangs out in certain spots. You like C.S. Lewis. So if you had been in Oxford and had wanted to meet C.S. Lewis when he was there, you would probably have gone to the Eagle and Child --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Stephanie Rousselle: -- or to the Magdalene College, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Stephanie Rousselle: Like, you would have gone to the places where he hung out because you had a greater chance of meeting him there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Stephanie Rousselle: And God tells us the places he hangs out. Of course, God is everywhere all the time, I get that. But at the same time, he also tells us he is a stream -- you know, a stream of water, so his Word is the water that feeds us. He tells us that he inhabits the praises of his people, so he's present in prayer in a particular way, and he's present in the church in the gathered body of believers. So there's places and times where God says, If you want to meet with me, I'm gonna be there. Come and join me.

And once we begin to experience the spiritual disciplines in that way, with the delight of approaching God and knowing he's waiting for us, all of a sudden those disciplines become an invitation to taste and see his goodness, right? To try the chocolate, to put on our shoes and start walking these paths with this expectation to meet him there and to taste his goodness. We're sitting at the banquet, at the feast that he has set for us, and we expect to taste him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, Stephanie, this is so good. I mean, just that phrase that you said, that delight becomes the new framework within which we enjoy and approach all these things. Okay, I love that so much because it does change it. It's not something that we are doing for God, it's something that we just meet him there and he does for us. I just love it.

And this whole feeling of where God hangs out, I mean -- because there's meet-ups. People go to meet up because they care about the person who's there and they know they're going to get something from it. That's why we meet up with people, let's be honest. But in that getting something, we're also giving something and receiving at the same time.

So, like, this is a virtuous cycle that is beautiful, and I am so glad you've written this book. And we're going to have a link to it, obviously, on the Show Notes, because I want people to be able to go through not just the theory of this and the beauty of it -- because your writing style is whimsical and beautiful too -- but because you've got such practical tools and we want to awaken delight.

But we're going to get to our last question. This is a fun one. Okay.

Because you said, Stephanie, that when we experience this delight in the Lord through perhaps these disciplines of just hanging out with him, we then develop these skills that become a gift to others. Okay. Well, Sister, I told the audience as we started this thing, our friends, that you had a gift for them. So let's talk about your gifts.

So you've got gifts for anyone reading the book "Awaken Delight" and that are listening to this podcast today. So do tell. What is the gift?

Stephanie Rousselle: I love you. You're so funny. I love that you love gifts, because that is such a Christlike thing. I mean, Jesus loves to give and to receive gifts, and so it's really, really fun.

So anyone who's reading the book, when you purchase the book there's a QR code at the end that leads you to, among other many things, a private podcast series where I take you into some of the verses we've discussed, you and me. Psalm 37:4, Psalm 34:8, Philippians 3:10, and many more.

And we dissect them a little bit. We taste them, we see what happens when we experience the goodness of God through them. And that's only if you have the QR code that's in the book. And I give you, like, a 3D video of a garden immersion, because we use the garden based in Psalm 1. So all things like that. A lot of recipes. There's a book club invite.

But there's also something specifically for your audience, Jennifer, because I want the 4:13ers to live a bit more of the "I Can" life by delighting in God.

I think actually -- we haven't talked about that, but we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us because we root our delight in him and because we know how much he delights in us. And so I want to encourage that, because that is such a truly life-changing message to know what we can do in Christ. And so there's a giveaway.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

Stephanie Rousselle: Anyone who signs up -- everyone wins because we're all conquerors in Christ. So everyone who signs up gets five Liturgies to Awaken Delight. So I've written these short liturgies that invite you to awaken and cultivate delight and become more aware of the presence of God around you throughout your day. So that's for everyone, and we're sending that to everyone who wants it.

And then we're also having one winner. We are going to draw a winner from among the entries of just your audience, and they're gonna win a gift bundle valued at over $150.

And that includes several pieces of jewelry made by survivors of human trafficking, because this is a cause that my ministry supports heavily, a prayer journal to help you cultivate one of the spiritual disciplines, and some other things like that. So all you need to do is go to gospelspice.com/413, for 413, and enter for a chance to win. It's for everybody.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love it. All right, 4:13ers, hang out to the end of the podcast and then you go to gospelspice.com/413.

All right. Stephanie, love you, and you have awakened delight in this conversation.

Stephanie Rousselle: Thank you, Jennifer. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May his face shine upon you and give you his peace as you delight in him.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, friends, you heard Stephanie. For the 4:13ers, which is you, if you sign up, everyone is going to win, because you're going to get these five liturgies that she's written that will help awaken delight. And then you heard her say that she's going to draw one winner for the big gift bundle, which sounded smashing. So right there, my friends, is delight.

And don't forget, we are getting very close to Episode 413 (whispering) next week. Okay? I don't want you to miss it. There is a special guest.

KC Wright: Go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/412 or the Show Notes at the platform where you're listening right now. That will connect you to all things Stephanie. And there is also a link to the survey Jennifer mentioned. We really do want to hear from you, so fill out that survey so the podcast refresh will be just what you want and need.

Again, I will have you a clue about next week's special guest.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, what's the clue?

KC Wright: Okay, here's a clue.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: He's a man.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, he's a man.

KC Wright: He is hilarious.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

KC Wright: His name is in the Bible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: And I've got more, but you know what, we're gonna end right there. Those are your clues.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those are good clues.

KC Wright: So until next week, our 413th episode -- man, that's a big deal --

Jennifer Rothschild: (Whispering) It's a big deal.

KC Wright: -- you can awaken delight because -- you know why? -- you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, his name is in the Bible.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Haggai? No, no.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Start a Morning Ritual Like Jesus Had? With Jennifer Dukes Lee

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, 4:13ers, this is Jennifer, and I just need to ask you something. Can I please hear from you? You guys have gotten to hear from me for so many years on The 4:13, but I want to hear from you. I need to hear your heart. I want to know what you care about. And here's how we're gonna do it.

I have got a survey waiting for you. It is on your Show Notes. Whatever podcast platform you are listening on right now, you can find your Show Notes and there will be a link to a survey. It'll take you three to five minutes, and it'll just help me know what's in your heart, what's in your head, what your thoughts are, what your hopes are, what you enjoy, because really we want to make the 4:13 Podcast exactly what meets your needs.

So go to your podcast player -- you can always find, though, Show Notes at 413podcast.com -- and let me hear your voice as you click on that survey and take five minutes to share with me.

Now here's the podcast.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: I have an incredible opportunity to set my daily intentions and expectations around the heart of God. And then for the remainder of my day, the very best things that happen are made even better purely by me having developed a morning awareness that blessings that come my way later in the day are not by chance, they are from God.

And that the worst things in a day are in a way made more bearable because that very morning I had already assured myself of God's presence and protection and provision and all those kinds of things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wouldn't you just love to build a life that you love one morning at a time? Well, you can, because today author Jennifer Dukes Lee is back on the podcast and she is going to show you how to wake up with hope, joy, and purpose, experiencing the new mercies of God every single morning.

Oh, she is going to teach you how to customize your own morning ritual, and she will explain to you how Jesus handled his mornings. And guess what? You're going to find out why she says that you, me, all of us, we are all morning people. Okay, surprise.

So, okay, morning people, this is going to be a good one, so let's go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends. That's KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy, and it's two friends here in the podcast closet. And, oh, we got so much good stuff going on this summer.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wait till you hear. Okay, you don't have to wait. You already heard something. Because at the top of this, I asked you to fill out a survey. Okay? Now, that's what I want to make sure you understand, that we want to hear from you. So I want you to fill out that survey when the podcast is done, because seriously your voice matters to us.

And part of the reason we want to hear your thoughts and feelings and opinions is because there's something very special happening around here in a few weeks.

KC Wright: Woot, woot.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I want to make sure you're involved, and I want to hear your heart so that what we do reflects what you care about.

Now, the other thing, KC, we need them to do is follow this podcast. Now, some of you are like, What? I am listening right now. Well, here's what I mean by follow. There used to word "subscribe." Remember?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: On a lot of the podcast platforms --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- they'd say "subscribe." Well, all the platforms now use the new word "follow." So whether you listen on Spotify or Apple, or anywhere you listen, you're going to see the word "follow." Here's what happens when you press "follow." You automatically are notified any time there is a new podcast or any time something new might be happening on the podcast.

So if you've never followed the podcast, you can do it right now while you're listening. Just hit "follow." It does not obligate you to anything, those of you who are nervous, it just means you guys get to be part of the family and you get to hear from us more easily. Okay? So if you don't already follow, just hit "follow." That way you will not hit the big news.

Okay. And the other thing I want you to know, we have a very special guest. Because in just a few weeks, Episode 413.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is the 4:13 Podcast, KC. We were just talking -- how many years?

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've done this what, seven years?

KC Wright: Seven years.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Y'all, that's amazing.

KC Wright: Seven years.

Jennifer Rothschild: We started in fall of 2018, and on -- in just a couple weeks it'll be Episode 413. So I have asked one of my very special friends, whom you love, to be our very special guest for the last podcast. Okay. So I don't want you to miss it.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. The other thing I want you to know -- now, I'm not going to tell you too much, but I will tell you this. The reason you need to follow, the reason you need to tune in to 4:13 is because the podcast is gonna get a new look.

KC Wright: A facelift, if you will.

Jennifer Rothschild: A facelift.

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: A new sound.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But don't worry, it's the same great content that you have loved and has helped you grow.

Yeah, it's been a spring around my house where I've been redoing my floors and -- yeah, I'm in it, man. We are -- things sometimes just need to be updated.

KC Wright: Updated. Absolutely. And, J.R. is speaking truth on that follow button she's encouraging you to do. Because, like, this morning I woke up to new notifications --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: -- that a 4:13 had dropped.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: Because I follow on different platforms, and so my phone was telling me, hey, new podcast, get in there.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you're like, thank you, phone.

KC Wright: And you matter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: So I always picture, when we do this podcast, that we're literally sitting at a round table. How rude would it be if Jenn and I did all the talking and you never got to jump into the conversation? That's rude.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's rude.

KC Wright: Jenn and I are hee-hawing over here with our besties. No, no. You're our bestie and your voice matters.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay, that's good.

KC Wright: So we want you to speak up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you'll just be able to go to -- wherever platform you're listening, you'll see the Show Notes there and you can just see the survey. It's right there, it's an easy link, it'll take you three minutes, and it'll make a big difference, so...

I'll tell you what else is going to make a big difference, is my friend Jennifer.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because we're going to talk to another Jennifer today. And, oh, my goodness, y'all, I have loved having her on the podcast before. And this one, KC, exceptional. And did you hear me say at the beginning, my people, we're all morning people? Like, some of you are like, what in the world? You're about to find out what in the word. All right?

So, KC, introduce Jennifer Dukes Lee.

KC Wright: Jennifer Dukes Lee is a best-selling author and speaker from Iowa. She's the author of several books including "Growing Slow," "It's All Under Control," and "Stuff I'd Only Tell God." Today she and Jennifer are talking about her latest book called "How to Love Your Morning." It's gonna be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: So good.

KC Wright: All right, here are the Jennifers.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

All right, Jennifer, I'm happy to have you back on the podcast. We were talking before we went on mic how our names are similar, which means our ages are somewhat similar.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: This name was definitely part of a decade.

But, you know, when you were on last time, I just remember how wise and insightful and refreshing our conversation was. And as I reviewed what we're going to talk about today, I thought this is going to be the same. Because you have written a book that is all about mornings. And what I understand that you did is that you studied over 200 mornings in the Bible.

So first of all, I love it when somebody just picks a topic and digs deep. So you studied over 200 mornings. And I don't know what it is, but I do know that you discovered something that really blew your mind. So spill it. What was it that you discovered?

Jennifer Dukes Lee: All right, Jennifer. So you're right, like, when I was going in to write this book about mornings, I didn't exactly know the angle I was going on. That's its own backstory. But I knew that whatever the angle was, it needed to be foundationally set upon the Scriptures.

So I went, like, completely open handed to see what God had to say about mornings. And it turns out that mornings aren't just kind of a movement or a shift in time from night to day. They're really, really important.

The first morning that I studied happened on the first pages of Scripture, and in Genesis I discovered that the very first thing that God created on this earth was a morning when he said, "Let there be light." How cool is that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Wow. I never thought of that.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: I know. I hadn't either. And then I kept going through the Scriptures and I -- you know, you see how God provides in the morning, like, in really unexpected ways.

Think about the Israelites and they wake up and find breakfast laying on the ground in the form of manna morning after morning. We encounter people like Abraham doing really hard things first thing in the morning, like taking your son Isaac up that mountain. Like, God calls people to these really difficult things. And if we have difficult mornings, the Scriptures and the characters we meet in the Scriptures, they understand it.

And then we come to verses like, "His mercies are new every morning," or, "Weeping may last for the night, but joy comes in the morning." We get to the New Testament and we encounter the hardest morning ever to unfold on this earth, when at 9 AM on a Friday morning Jesus was crucified. And three days later, the most glorious morning in the history of our world when he broke out of his tomb alive. And, of course, then in Revelation we see Jesus reintroducing himself to us as the Bright Morning Star.

So again and again I was encountering these beautiful truths about God, about Jesus, about the Holy Spirit. And the surprising thing that I came to know on account of the study of every single morning in Scripture was this: that God is a morning person. And because we are made in his image, that means we are too. We are all morning people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, that's what I was about to ask you. Okay. So that's a bold assertion, Jennifer, that we are all morning people. So are you saying that that is true because we're made in his image? And then, like, how does that show up if that is true?

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Yes. So I think first of all we have to define what a morning person is. For all of our lives, most of us have an idea that a morning person is somebody who gets up, like, at 5:00 AM, maybe does some major hour-long workout, then has, like, a gourmet breakfast and exegetes the entire book of Leviticus, then irons their bedsheets.

And all of this happening before 8:00 AM, when a lot of us are just, like, getting out of bed with our hair sticking out in ten different directions trying to figure out where the coffee maker is and why -- how can I get my first cup now? So I think that we base this idea of morning person on the time of day and all that we can, quote, accomplish in the first minutes of a day.

But being a morning person, as a Christian it is not a clock thing; it is a God thing. It is not about the hour you wake up; it is about who you wake up to be. It is about how you show up. It is about believing that God's mercies really are new every morning and not just looking at those verses and thinking, oh, that would be really cute to put on my coffee mug, but, like, that's a way to live, like, to believe that his mercies are new every morning.

And there really isn't a person I know that doesn't want to believe that. I think, you know, we all want to believe that God's mercies are new every morning, but what does it look like to actually live that way? And so that's the message that I'm bringing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, that is a very liberating message.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I think some may have already thought, oh, I don't know about this. I'll check her out, but I'm not a morning person. But you just basically said if we're in Christ, we are morning people. And I love the liberty that "morning" does not mean a certain time of day.

And by the way, when you gave that description of the quote/unquote morning person who's up at 5:00, they tend to chatter or whistle also with all of that activity, which is really mind-blowing. So I love that liberty.

So one of the things that you talk about in your book -- well, in fact, you use some different wording. So I'm curious, why did you replace the words that we're used to, like morning routine -- because we all have what we think are morning routines. Why did you replace those words with the idea of a morning ritual? Like, what is the difference? Why'd you do that? Why does that matter?

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Well, when I hear the word "routine," to me it feels performative. A routine feels routine. And I don't get all that motivated by things that I have to do that feel routine, that feels the same. I do, however, get very motivated by something that feels like a ritual, something that feels inherently sacred, holy, meaningful. And not just in the big ways of -- you know, like major church rituals -- which I also love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: But I mean these little moments in our ordinary lives that we can name as ritual. So they're just an automatic imbuing of something sacred when we call something ritual.

So for me, they are -- when I go have my first cup of coffee in the morning, I will say out loud into my kitchen, "This is my coffee ritual." And saying that out loud brings an awareness to me that this is one of God's gifts to me in the morning.

And on top of that ritual of drinking a warm, hot cup of coffee, I have my prayer ritual. I have on my -- posted right beside my coffee maker, I have a list of names on our church bulletin -- we still have those church bulletins in our little country church -- and I pray for those people in my church family every morning when I'm having my coffee.

So I'm tying my coffee ritual to my prayer ritual, and it feels holy. It feels a part of God's work in the world. I feel like I'm co-laboring with him and I'm relating with him right away in the morning in a way that I wouldn't feel if this was my routine.

I think it's so important -- like, how we name things is so important, and it creates an environment of inviting God's presence and acknowledging God's presence, whether it is stepping outside under a big open sky and saying, "Ah, this is my step outside ritual," or, "This is my pray for other people ritual." "This is my candle lighting ritual," if you like to light a candle before your morning time with the Lord. Whatever it can be, it can be elevated simply by the fact of calling it a ritual.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that. Well, I love words anyway. "Ritual" is such an inviting word.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you even said it invites God into what could be a routine and -- at least in your imagination, in your sacred imagination. And I love that.

So I do a lot of those things, but I think I'm going to begin to identify them and name them, because that really makes a difference. It also, I would think, Jennifer, helps us kind of slow down and become a part of something we're doing. Whereas routines, sometimes we can just get so used to them, we just skate through them and don't even pay attention.

So I'm curious, though, as I hear you describe all that -- I'm thinking of, like, my daughter-in-law who has five children. I'm thinking about the person, you know, who works nights, or just caring for somebody who's ill or whatever. Like, normal morning routines, or even rituals, like, they just feel impossible and unattainable, or at least nothing they can do with consistency. What do you say to that person?

Jennifer Dukes Lee: I say to that person, I see you, I am you. I've been through so many seasons of my life, from the doubting college student that didn't even know if Jesus was real, so, like, why take time to read the Bible; to a busy newspaper reporter feeling like I didn't have time to open the Scriptures; to being a young mom when quiet time felt anything but quiet; to being a daughter who also became my father's -- one of my father's primary caregivers when he was on Hospice.

What I learned during all of those seasons is that I cannot wait for perfect conditions to decide that I want to meet with God at the front end of the day. That is the most important thing that I can do. And that isn't to say that it has to look perfect. This message is not about having a perfect morning ritual or having how many ever minutes of quiet time you have squeezes some amount of holiness on to your day. It's not about that at all.

There is no harp music or fancy latte art in my life. I don't have, like, tomes of color-coded commentaries. My penmanship isn't pretty inside of my journals. But what I have always done, ever since I've been a believer, is known how important it is to -- the first thing in the morning to acknowledge that I have an incredible opportunity to set my daily intentions and expectations around the heart of God.

And then for the remainder of my day, the very best things that happen are made even better purely by me having developed a morning awareness that blessings that come my way later in the day are not by chance; they are from God. And that the worst things in a day are in a way made more bearable because that very morning I had already assured myself of God's presence and protection and provision and all those kinds of things.

So it's not about doing it a certain way you see on TikTok or Instagram. It's not about doing it in a performative way. It may look -- like, you may have to shrink it down in certain seasons of your life. But thinking through how can I encounter God in the first parts of my day? How can I take care of my physical body, making sure that I'm taking my supplements or medications, having a good breakfast, hydrating myself, moving my body?

It's like a full holistic approach toward taking care of yourself and being really intentional about it. And setting a tone not only for your home and for yourself, but also for the people that are observing you. You're helping them learn and create patterns in their own lives.

When I was a young mom, I thought, I don't know if this is mattering. I don't know if any of the stuff that I'm doing in my, quote, quiet time is mattering at all. But when I was writing this book, I was talking to the girls and they said, "Mom, what you created for us are the things that we're doing now in our adult lives. It may not have seemed like it mattered, Mom, but it mattered."

They were little things. They weren't beautiful things. I gave my kids little prayer journals. They were, like, little spiral-bound notebooks that they would write their prayers in. And, you know, sometimes they'd be doing that, and then the next minute they'd be, like, wrestling on the floor, like, pulling each other's hair.

But we still just did it. We were just faithful to the process. We learned from each other. We learned from God. We prayed every single morning out loud, and that's something that anybody can do. And that's something I would encourage that young mom to do, that you were talking about that has a lot of kids, like, deciding, like, we are going to pray every day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: We're going to pray out loud every day. I mean, these are the kinds of things that my message is aimed at helping people do. It's not like these big complicated jumping through hoop type of things, but simple things that really do matter way on down the road as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it, Jennifer. Because you're not saying, okay, here's something new to implement, you're saying, you're doing some things, now let's make them purposeful.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or let's add this little bit of intention into this. And I think all of us can do that. It's just a matter of slowing down.

But one of the things you write about, that I thought was real interesting and I want you to unpack, is that Jesus actually had a morning ritual --

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- the Shema Prayer.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I want you to tell us what that is. Can we apply that? Like, make that personal.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Yeah. Okay. So I went, of course, looking for Jesus' morning routine. And we know from the Gospels we could see him a couple times, like, waking up, quote, early in the morning to consult with the Father. We see that. So we know that. But there's nothing in the Bible that says explicitly this is the morning routine of Jesus.

However, we know that the Israelites were praying the Shema Prayer for centuries before Jesus was born. And as a devout Jew, Jesus would have heard the Shema every morning since he was a baby, he would have learned it when he was a kid. It would have been part of his own morning faith tradition as he got older, probably every single morning and evening as well.

We run into the words of the Shema Prayer both in Deuteronomy as well as in the Gospel of Mark. And in Mark, Jesus says it like this: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." So in Jesus' morning ritual of praying the Shema, he would have been every morning expressing his intention to love God with his whole being.

And I think his morning intention can become ours as well, even if it means, you know, posting Mark 12:30 on your bathroom mirror or by your coffee maker or your tea kettle and asking yourself every single morning, what does it look like today to love the Lord my God with all of my heart and my soul?

So maybe that means that you're going to have a 20-minute quiet time. Maybe that means as a family you're going to strengthen your hearts and love the Lord your God by memorizing a verse together as a family, praying out loud together as a family. Whatever it is, like, how are you going to love the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul?

And then with your mind. What weighs your mind down as you wake up in the morning? How can you love God with your mind? How can you have the things that enter your mind be the things of God, the things of Christ, instead of the things on your phone? Setting aside the phone and letting God fill up those spaces in your mind first thing in the morning.

And then how do you love God with all of your strength? So I'm talking here now not just about our inner strength, but our outer strength. It is things like making sure that we're taking care of our bodies, making sure that the night before we're getting the sleep that we actually need so that we can have the morning that we actually want.

So that's going to look different depending on your season of life and what you have going on, but I think that's a really great place to start.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, what a great framework. Yeah, I really appreciate that. And it makes -- you had already alluded to that too when you talked about taking care of your body and your heart. Yeah, that's -- I've never thought of applying the Shema that way, and I think that is a beautiful concept.

Okay. So, now, there's another concept, though, in your book that I want us to talk about because you introduce it in your book. It's this idea of morning archetypes. Okay, fascinating. You gotta unpack this. Tell us what you mean by morning archetypes.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Okay. So an archetype is just a fancy word for personality. I could have said personality.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I like archetype. I feel so intelligent. Thank you.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: I know. It makes me really smart. That's the only place.

So here's the deal with the archetypes. When I started to put together the content for the book, I really wanted to have a one-size-fits-all tried and true method for mornings. Because there were books in the secular marketplace like that, like get up at a certain time and then do this set of things and then you're going to have a perfect morning.

Well, I interviewed hundreds of women for this book and it became clear really early on that that was not gonna work.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: We're all in different seasons of life and we all have different personalities. We all have different archetypes. I discovered in those interviews four major archetypes.

And they are the Daybreak Doer. This is the kind of person who is ready to hit the ground running right away in the morning. They feel, you know, most productive in those first hours of the day. They maybe want to get a couple little morning tasks done or mentally prepare for a work assignment. I find that Daybreak Doers do best when they can just get something done right away, set it aside, and then really lock in with God.

I've recommended to a lot of Daybreak Doers that they keep a distraction notepad beside them so that when their mind is already spinning toward what they want to get done for the day, they can just write it down on the distraction notepad so they can stay locked in on their meditative time with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Love it.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: So it's not to say you set aside God, but you invite him into your daybreak doing and you then are just acknowledging how God made you.

The second type is the Morning Mover. And this person really functions best if she can get moving as soon as possible. So this is you if you love to go for a morning walk or a jog or go, you know, to your high cardio workout. It gets your metabolism going, your mood going. I'm a Morning Mover. I love those mornings, because then when I come home after my exercise, I'm ready to dig into the Scriptures after having my coffee ritual. And those are my best mornings of all.

Then the third type is the Meditative Mind. This is the person who is really drawn to meditative prayer, study, devotional reading, journaling, all those kinds things immediately. It sets the foundation of calmness and gratitude. Some Meditative Minds do that before they even get out of bed. They've got, like, their journal and everything sitting right there on their bedside.

And then finally is the Social Seeker. This is a type that craves connection and interaction with other people right away. Gives them a sense of purpose. They just love to be around people. Children are often Social Seekers. And I think that's really important to recognize that child that comes bounding out of their bedroom having all these stories pent up inside of them that they just need to share. They maybe want to sit on your lap. They need hugs. When I interviewed women for this book, we came to know that a lot of widows were actually Social Seekers and didn't know it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Their person was suddenly not there, and they'd built a lot of routine and ritual around shared interests with their spouse.

So knowing your archetype is helpful because what you want to do is begin your day with something you know will motivate you to wake up, and then you can build your morning ritual from there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I know as we were listening -- because I was doing the same -- we were all thinking, okay, yep, that's me. Okay. So once we find that, is your suggestion, then, that you go ahead and you press into that? So like you, because you're a Morning Mover, you're not going to try to be the Meditative Mind first thing in the morning because --

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know the way the Lord made you, so you're going to hit the ground first with some movement?

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Yes. So the only morning I get up that early -- I get up at 5:07, which is the last possible moment I can get up and make my 5:30 AM workout class in town. I live on a farm.

But the thing is, like, even when I'm moving, it is not something outside of or apart of God. I sense God's presence with me. I thank the Lord for the women that I get to meet with every morning during my class. I work a lot in isolation as an author, so I don't get to see people very much, and I just -- I praise God for those times together.

And it's not that it's outside of his realm. He's in it with me. But I think it's also important if you aren't a Meditative Mind, that you don't forget that that's really important to be intentional with prayer, journaling. It doesn't have to be hours long, but to make some time where you're really locked in with what God has going on.

Jennifer Rothschild: When you describe the four archetypes, I can see where we all lean into one of those, yet at the same time all of those are necessary for our wholeness.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Correct.

Jennifer Rothschild: So for that perhaps young mom who has a Social Seeker that bounds out of bed before the Pop-Tarts, and she's a Meditative Mind, both can be accomplished. Every season's different, like you already alluded to.

Wow, Jennifer. Okay. First of all, I love how you've crafted this, and I love the concept and I love the invitation. 4:13ers, that's what it really feels like to me, an invitation. And I don't know about you, Jennifer, and our listeners, but there are times when I just want kind of a rethink. And this to me feels like a rethink, like let's rethink this. Why just do the same ol', same ol' when perhaps we could rethink and filter in some new intentions into what we're doing. So well done. Thank you for writing this.

All right. But we're gonna get to our last question, my dear. Okay. So I'm thinking about the person who -- she can't help herself, Jennifer. She can't help herself. She is looking for the formula. She's like, okay, one more thing to do. Even though that's not what you've been discussing, she's already feeling bogged down by the demand she already has. So just give her one practice from your book, that she can begin to apply tomorrow, that'll just help her morning move from feeling so, like, full of dread to being full of hope.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: Yes. I'm going to give you one that actually originated with Mother Teresa. Mother Teresa told people that the first thing they should do every morning is to greet the Lord with the greeting, "Good morning, Jesus." And it has made such a difference for me.

Like, when the first thing out of my mouth and out of my mind is to greet my Savior -- I know that there's going to be things that come into any given day that I have that are going to be really difficult. But it is so invitational just to greet God and be aware of his presence, to take a moment to talk to him before we look at our phones, before we see what notifications are pinging, or to think about all the things that weigh us down as the day goes on. I think that's the very, very best place to start.

And if I may offer one more, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, please.

Jennifer Dukes Lee: To grant yourself the sleep that you need. I think that we wear lack of sleep like a badge of honor, and one of the reasons that we are not very pleased with mornings is because we are lacking the sleep that we need.

To set an alarm for yourself at night, just like you do in the morning, to say this is the end of the day, this is the end of the work, this is the end of, you know, my scrolling or Netflix or whatever. That I am going to get my me time by getting to sleep on time so that I can be ready tomorrow morning to receive the new mercies that he has just for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, you heard it. The first thing to do is to just greet the Lord. "Good morning, Jesus." I mean, just greet God and be aware of his presence, because he's with you. So talk to him before you check out your phone.

KC Wright: And I'm so thankful, happy, glad she included that we need to grant ourselves sleep. Hello! Lack of sleep is not a badge of honor. So, our people, set your night alarm telling you to go to bed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

KC Wright: She has such a fresh perspective here. I really like her stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Me too.

KC Wright: Good morning, Jesus!

So fill out that survey Jennifer mentioned so we can hear from you. Your voice truly matters. You can have a great morning. And you know why? You can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: What was that movie back in the '70s? Was it Good Morning, Vietnam?

KC Wright: Yeah, Good Morning --

Jennifer Rothschild: Can you do that?

KC Wright: Good morning, Jesus!

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go. Well done.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Stop Emotional Hoarding? With Laurie Davies

Laurie Davies: In the pages of "Emotional Hoarding," we're not hauling our emotions out to a dumpster. Even if we could, we would just -- to use your word "restock."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So we have to get to the root of why we're holding on. And that takes a little bit of courage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: I would say that's the first thing. If you're asking about how do we process this stuff instead of possess this stuff, I would say the first thing is, you know, to have a little bit of courage to dig into the corners of your emotional closets.

Jennifer Rothschild: The concept of emotional baggage is awfully trendy and we often joke about it. Yet, one of the earliest English definitions of "luggage" is anything of more weight than value. Ooh, let that sink in. When we collect, stack, and stockpile burdens, we add weight, but we don't add value to our lives. Those are the wise words of today's guest, author Laurie Davies.

So with humor and biblical wisdom, Laurie is going to help us stop hoarding grudges, anger, regrets, and instead we're going to find wholeness and healing in Christ. Ooh, doesn't that sound good? All right, friends, it is time to move from hoarding to healing.

KC, let's get the party started.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, friends, we're glad you're here today. I've got a happy tingle going on about today's topic. Ooh, it's a good topic. So it is two friends here -- it's me and KC -- and one topic, and zero stress. So glad you're here. And I hope your week has been good. I'm telling you, this next 30 minutes is gonna be really good, 'cause we are talking about a concept that I find absolutely fascinating, and you're going to also, emotional hoarding.

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: And Laurie, you know, she deals a lot with that physical image of hoarding when she's talking about this and we can relate. I'm telling you, nothing -- okay, not nothing. Very few things, KC, bring me more stress than too much stuff.

KC Wright: Yeah. And I've really -- you know, you are who you hang out with. And that is something that I'm so grateful I've picked up from you, because you are always decluttering --

Jennifer Rothschild: Always.

KC Wright: -- cleaning --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: -- making things better, sharper. Beauty is beheld here at the Rothschild Homestead. But you're always giving me your treasures --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: -- and I love it, I love it, I love it. But I give a lot of it away.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you do. And you've got your antique flea market booth --

KC Wright: Right. I have a little booth.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- so you can sell some of it too.

KC Wright: And the only reason I do that is because it helps pay for my daughter's piano lessons.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I think it's great.

KC Wright: And it's so fun, 'cause you just shove stuff in there -- my friends own it -- and you walk away, and you go back in a month and you're like, oh, wow, I made $300 off junk?

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. It's the best.

KC Wright: But, no, I think you taught me this, but I -- several years ago I started having a -- just placing a box in my house, and in that box goes, hey, I don't wear that anymore. I don't like that anymore. Why am I keeping this?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: And you know what? Right now in my life, I gotta get rid of some things that -- the only reason I have them is because someone gave them to me, that are now in heaven, and I feel -- and I'm like, no, they need to go --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- because they don't care anymore. They don't care.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, they -- they're so happy and whole.

KC Wright: They don't care.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what, KC? I -- so I have this rule, one for one. If I get something new, I get rid of something old.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I donate it or -- but, yeah, I keep the box.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I also have a rule that I will keep the box for at least a month. Because sometimes I can get a little impetuous. I'm like, Oh, I'm stressed out, I think I'll clean something, and I'll get rid of 12 things that I actually should have kept. So that's part of it.

KC Wright: Where's my favorite coffee mug?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Oh, it's in the box.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do that. You would not believe.

KC Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, you know, Kenzie -- y'all, I've talked about Kenzie before. She's my assistant. She will help me. She'll be like, "Well, why are you keeping this?" "Well, because so-and-so from such-and-such gave me it because" -- and she's like, "Get rid of it. They don't care and you don't care." You're right, yeah. So, yeah, we need people to help us clean it out.

KC Wright: Yeah. However, today she's talking about something that is so big.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: Because I know a lady in my life, and I love her so much, and she is sunshine with hair. But every time I'm around this lady, she starts talking about her divorce that happened 100 years ago, and her ex-husband that caused her all this pain is now dead. He's in heaven, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But here we are, it's a beautiful day, blue skies, the flowers are blooming, the birds are chirping, and she's stuck 20 years ago. And it's a stronghold.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. That's exactly what Laurie's talking about.

KC Wright: It's a stronghold, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's this emotional hoarding, not willing to let go. We don't even know we're doing it sometimes. Like, Miss Sunshine probably doesn't know she's doing it --

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know?

KC Wright: But my heart breaks for her because whom the Son sets free is free indeed --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, hallelujah.

KC Wright: -- and she's not free because she needs a renewed mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, you just -- it's like you and Laurie had this conversation, not me and Laurie. Dude, that was so good.

Okay, introduce her, because we need to hear from this girl.

KC Wright: Laurie Davies is a former journalist and women's ministry director. Laurie knows the burdens that weigh women down. As an author, speaker, and lay counselor, she encourages women to trade their emotional hoards for freedom. Laurie lives in Mesa, Arizona, with her husband of 30 years, Greg. Their adult son, Morgan, lives nearby. And after hearing this great conversation, you will wish you lived near Laurie too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: So here's J.R. and Laurie.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Laurie, I love that we both have short hair. And though I have a red streak and you don't yet, it's coming. It is coming, girl. I know it's coming.

But we're gonna talk about something that is fun today. It's a fun topic, but it can get very un-fun. Okay? So when I saw your book, I was like, I gotta talk to this girl, because we're gonna talk about emotional hoarding.

But before we do, like, there is -- everybody bats around these words "emotional luggage" or "emotional baggage." So first of all I want you to talk about what emotional baggage is, and do we all carry it, and then I want you to explain what you mean by emotional hoarding.

Laurie Davies: I will do both. But first I will mention that maybe one day I will have a red streak in my hair.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, one day.

Laurie Davies: Maybe I'll be cool enough.

Yeah, so emotional baggage, you're right, I think we sort of toss that term around. It's become just a natural part of our vernacular. And I think by -- sometimes we're joking about it. You know, we've made memes out of it. But generally by "emotional baggage," we mean difficult emotions or unresolved emotions that just are -- you know, that have piled up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Laurie Davies: So by emotional hoarding, I would take that same definition to the next level and say not only have they piled up and accumulated, but sometimes we don't want to let go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Ooh. Okay. I can kind of get where you're going with that. So then here's the question. How do we know if you're an emotional hoarder? Like, make that real.

Laurie Davies: Well -- so 10,000-foot view, there are some global cues and clues. I'll do those first. And then maybe we can pick specifically on one of the emotions in the book so that your listener will be able to work that out specifically.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Laurie Davies: So globally I would say we can know we're holding on with no intention of letting go. If it's something we're nurturing in our thinking, clinicians call that ruminating. You know, we think about it all the time. Last thing we think about before we go to bed, first thing we think about when we wake up. So there's that side of the coin.

The other side of the coin is sometimes we just stuff it down and forget it's there. It'll go away if I just sweep it under the rug. Listen to the language we use. It's even the language of kind of -- it's household language.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: You know, it sort of lines up with how a physical hoarder might sort of start to accumulate things and not even see them anymore. So we sort of do that with our emotions sometimes. We can tell we're hoarding if we're ignoring the thing. "No, I don't feel this way." So that'll come out later. You'll be playing an emergency game of emotional whack-a-mole, you know. And spoiler alert, that's never convenient timing. So those two things can offer evidence.

This stuff also shows up in our physiology. So how are you sleeping? How's your tummy? Do you have headaches a lot? You know, is your jaw clenched throughout the day because you're just thinking about this hard thing? So that's sort of top-level view. If those things are going on, if you see yourself in that at all, you may be holding on to stuff and thinking you can't or shouldn't or won't or don't deserve to let go of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that's -- and that was good qualification there. You can't, you won't, you don't deserve. And then I think sometimes we're just ignorant too.

Laurie Davies: Yeah. Sometimes we don't see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't because it's so familiar to us. Even if it's dangerous or unhealthy, it's so familiar that it just -- yeah, it feels like it's ours.

So in your book, I know you cover ten different emotions. And I think this will help us, like you said, get granular here. And these are the emotions that hurt us if we hoard them. Okay. So, like, why don't you pick one -- or give us an idea of what they might be, some of them, and then let's pick one that might have been your favorite or least favorite, like, the hardest for you to write about, and let's go granular with that.

Laurie Davies: Yeah, doesn't that sometimes happen? The least favorite becomes the most favorite because that's where God helped you grow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Laurie Davies: So, yeah, I think if we survey the emotions, the things we hold on to, worry is one. How many have said, "I'm just from a family of worriers. I worry all the time"? Fear, regret, guilt, specifically false guilt. Pride. I saved that for a little deeper into the book because I don't think any of your listeners woke up this morning thinking, boy, I really hope I get a handle on my pride today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: But it piles up and it hurts us and it hurts our relationships. Anger, bitterness. Dread. There's some mystery around that one. That was fun to unpack. And then I end the book with worthlessness and shame.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Okay. Yeah, these are sadly familiar.

Laurie Davies: Yeah. And it's a hard list, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Laurie Davies: I mean, there's -- there is humor in these pages because I needed it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Laurie Davies: We can't unpack this stuff without some mileposts along the way where we stop and just laugh. And no one is going to feel beaten up on this journey either because --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Laurie Davies: -- this is stuff -- none of us hoard good emotions, positive. You know, we find 20 bucks in our jeans and we just express joy. It just comes out of us. It's the hard stuff that we hold on to.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And that's what I wanted to take a look at, because -- you know, in the book I had the luxury of tackling one emotion at a time, but in real life this stuff becomes like a combo platter and we -- it gets messy and tangled up, and anger overlaps with regret, and that comes out as shame and it all becomes so much. So I wanted to tackle one at a time so we could clear some floor space in our hearts. And actually what we're doing in these pages is charting a course toward freedom.

So you wanted me to pick on --

Jennifer Rothschild: Pick on you.

Laurie Davies: -- one emotion.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: Well, I will. I will tell you, late in the book is a chapter on worthlessness. It was a hard one for me to write. Because honestly, you know, I approached this thinking I'm going to help all those readers out there --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: -- deal with worthlessness. And what I realized -- and I think I knew it coming in. I think that's why I went away to write this chapter. One of my friends graciously offered me a lake house for the week, and I just -- I didn't put on makeup, I -- I just sat and wept through this chapter because it's my core wound.

So, you know, clues that worthlessness may have become chronic, and I -- some of these came from my own heart. You know, attention seeking. You fish for compliments. You need something to get attention. Or maybe it comes out the opposite way, you put yourself down.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mmm, yeah.

Laurie Davies: Comparison. You compare your performance to others as a measure of finding your worth. Maybe striving comes to mind. You know, you hustle, you stay busy. I used to call myself high capacity. I think that's just a euphemism for workaholic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So you strive, you hustle to find your worth. Or you have a lack of boundaries. You don't know how to say no because it's that going and doing and producing that gives you your worth. Negative self-talk. You put yourself down. Or you, even worse, agree with others' destructive statements. And we've got a real problem if that's the case, because that's all the enemy does.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. He's there to accuse.

Laurie Davies: That's all he feeds us. Yeah, he stands before God. He has the audacity to stand before God night and day accusing the brethren. That's us, the brethren and the sisters.

So that one is something -- you know, I probably from now until glory will be getting a handle on that one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: But it was sweet to write, it was difficult to write. It was a little bit autobiographical. But also I have this deep compassion for my reader in that chapter because I know what it's like to struggle with that. And, you know, there's really something to understanding when God made us, he made a masterpiece. And we don't get the right to hang a clearance tag on that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Yeah. Wow. Laurie, that's hard and that's powerful. And I think a lot of us as women -- well, I do -- identify with that. Now, of course, we might have different levels of it, but, I mean, I think we all identify with that. And of course we would. Because if we are of ultimate worth that Jesus would die for us, the Imago Dei of God -- I mean, if this is who we are, of course Satan's going to attack that very part of us. And then we can agree with it

And so I'm thinking of just your physicality of how you create this image of hoarding, right? So if I think, okay, so let's say I'm a worthlessness hoarder emotionally. If I think about something that I hoard in my house, even if I clean it out -- okay? -- even if I clean it out of my house, I'm like, okay, I just noticed this hoarding, I'm getting rid of all this junk, I'm still going to have the propensity toward getting it again and putting it right back in my house because it was familiar.

So how do we overcome that temptation or walk in the grace to not just keep restocking?

Laurie Davies: Wow. First of all, I love this question. Second of all, you hit this whole concept on the head. Because in the pages of "Emotional Hoarding," we're not hauling our emotions out to a dumpster. Even if we could, we would just, to use your word, restock.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So we have to get to the root of why we're holding on. And that takes a little bit of courage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: I would say that's the first thing. If you're asking about how do we process this stuff instead of possess this stuff, I would say the first thing is, you know, to have a little bit of courage to dig into the corners of your emotional closets.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So that does take a little bit -- you know, I've had a funny reaction to this book. People will look at the title, "Emotional Hoarding," and go, "Oh, I need that." And then there's almost sometimes a, "Ooh, I don't" --

Jennifer Rothschild: "I don't want that."

Laurie Davies: -- "I don't know if I want that," yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it -- I get that. I do. I understand that wholeheartedly. That first step does take a little courage to kind of -- hmm, do I want to peek in this closet here that I've had shut for a long time?

I would say the second thing would be, we have a real strong ally in this process. We have a helper called the Holy Spirit. We can, as David did, invite God to search our heart to see if there's any offensive way in us. There is zero risk here because God already knows everything in us that's offensive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And when we ask him that, we're showing him a humility that he loves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: He'll partner with us in that. And so we can invite him in.

And then, you know, maybe a third -- I go through this in a little bit more detail in the book, but high-level third step would be to challenge your thinking about why you're holding on. That gets to the restocking thing you're talking about.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Laurie Davies: Is it godly? Is it ingrained because it was imprinted on you at a young age?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Laurie Davies: Is it even working for you? Is it helping you parent better, love your husband, or is it working for the enemy?

Jennifer Rothschild: Dude, this is so practical, Laurie. I love this. And I can assure the reader of this book, yeah -- yeah, it may be some challenging concepts, but it is so safe and delightful the way you've framed it. And it is, it's a safe journey that you have taken and that you hold the hand of the reader. I love that. Because all of us have dealt with this and -- I just love that.

And speaking of something all of us have dealt with -- okay, so you did mention these ten different emotions. You talked about worthlessness, which I think a lot of us can identify with. But you started with worry. And I think that's interesting. So I know you're a writer, you're an editor, so I'm curious. You intentionally led with that. So why did you lead with worry, and did you learn anything about it that surprised you?

Laurie Davies: I led with worry because I wanted the reader to clear some quick emotional floor space.

I just got some new shelves in my office, so -- they're floor to ceiling. I had to move everything out so we could get these shelves in. And when we were moving everything out, I was astonished at what had accumulated that I didn't even see anymore. You know, the pile of papers I thought I'll deal with later and the -- I have so many books -- it's a problem -- that they -- you know, they were stacking on the floor. I have a computer monitor I haven't hooked up yet, so there's this big box in the corner.

So anyway, moving everything out revealed to me how much there was. And I think that can be true sometimes with our emotional builds on builds, if you will.

So I picked on worry first because it's fairly universal and there is a very neat, clean way in Scripture to close the worry loop. So I thought, if I can help my reader feel like they've made quick progress, maybe they'll have the courage to move on to chapter 3, and then 4, and then 5.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. Yeah. And so give me a quick understanding of what the -- how to close that worry loop.

Laurie Davies: Yeah. So it's found in Philippians 4, which is near and dear to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And so it's all the whatevers. And really it's a thought modification process, if you will. Because at the end of all of them it says, "Think on these things."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: So again, I kind of unpack them really in more detail in the book. But maybe we could look at the first one, whatever is --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, just look at one of them.

Laurie Davies: Whatever is true. So this is -- so for the listener who's wondering, you know, where I'm going with this, this is Philippians -- really I start in Philippians 4:5, because it's really important to know what comes before the whatevers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And it's, "The Lord is near," so do not be anxious for anything. That changes that. That hits different.

Jennifer Rothschild: Big time. Yeah, big time.

Laurie Davies: Yeah. I mean, if you've ever been worried, anxious, and you have a friend -- or friend -- air quotes friend who throws the don't -- "You know, the Bible says don't be anxious for anything," you just want to like, you know, just snap their neck. Not literally. But it's a frustrating moment when you're in that place of worry and you're told not to worry. But I love what the Lord places before that. "I'm near." "I'm so near to you."

So then we hear, "Don't be anxious for anything, but in everything, by prayer and supplication, make your requests known to God, and the peace of God, which transcends understanding, will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus." That's what we're going for here, guarding our hearts and minds.

Then we get to the whatevers. Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, you know, that whole list. Whatever is lovely. So the first one, whatever is true. In different Bible translations, "right" might be translated "just," "noble" might be translated -- don't remember. But there's different words for noble. True is always true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah. It's either true or false. There is no --

Laurie Davies: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there's no nuance there.

Laurie Davies: So whatever is true, that's such a great starting point. So I'm worried I won't have enough money for retirement. Or I'm worried I'm wrecking my kids. I hear that from moms a lot. Worried I'm not a good mom. Well, load up with what's true. God chose you for this assignment. On the money question, you know, God provides. I've been worried about money so many times in my life. You know what? I've never missed a meal. That is true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Laurie Davies: So we can start right out of the chute with just a pretty long list of what is true. What's the truth that God speaks over your situation? And then we work through the others. And by the end of that progression, you know, there's a reason Paul encouraged us the Lord's inspiration to think on these things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: 'Cause they work.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I see you in your office with your bookshelves and your computer monitor box, et cetera, and I see that image with our emotions and that you lay that Philippians 4:8 standard over it.

And it's almost like you pick up each thing in your emotional closet and you look at it and you go, Is this true? No. It's got to get out of here. It's not going to stay here. Is this noble? Is this good? Is this right? Well, if it doesn't -- if it's not good and noble and right, then it cannot stay in your office there.

So I can just see what a beautiful way this is to help you discern that which is cluttering and that which you are hoarding and, therefore, get rid of it just with that easy biblical -- I say easy -- with that simple biblical standard. Which on our own in our flesh is not easy, but through the power of the Holy Spirit it is a done deal.

Laurie Davies: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, Laurie, that's so good. That's so -- I love visual things. Even though I can't see, I love visual things. It just helps us really process it. So thank you for sharing that.

And then I guess as I'm hearing that, I'm thinking of things that I hoard, that I hold on to. Like, there's some things that I hold on to, like, let's say bitterness, and I think I'm holding on to it because I think I'm justified, and if I just continue to resent, then they will pay. But really I'm the only one, right?

Laurie Davies: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm curious, why is it -- you kind of alluded to this a little bit a couple of questions ago -- but that we -- why is it that we hold on to these emotions that hurt us?

Laurie Davies: Well, first of all, thanks for being honest. Because I don't think we fess up about the stuff we hold on to enough, especially as women. I think it's -- oh, that's probably a whole different podcast. But I think if we could just be a little more honest about what we're -- you know, we even use the language of holding on with that one. We hold grudges.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: I don't have to go too far in my own mind and in my own circle to find some grudges that are being held on to out of that sense of entitlement. I don't see Jesus hanging on the cross and saying things like, You know, Laurie, 99% of how you've sinned against me I'm going to forgive. But that 1%, I'm just -- I can't do it. I can't give it. I'm gonna withhold that. That would change every -- that would not be a good deal for me, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Laurie Davies: I would spend the rest of my life approaching a throne of partial grace with a lack of confidence. So anyway, bitterness in particular, I'm glad you hit that one, because I think sometimes we do feel entitled to hold on. So that's one --

Jennifer Rothschild: We do, yeah.

Laurie Davies: -- one reason to your question. Now I'll answer your question.

You know, sometimes it's good old-fashioned rebellion. We want to hold that grudge. We think we are entitled to that grudge. Sometimes maybe it's a survival strategy. Grew up maybe -- false guilt comes to mind. I wrote a whole chapter on that. And some of your listeners may have grown up knowing in the family drama and dysfunction that was happening, there was a price to pay. Somebody had to say they were sorry.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And they learned wrongly that if they said sorry, even if things weren't their fault, even if they weren't responsible, if they just took the blame, that the hard thing would stop. So sometimes it's a survival strategy we learned when we were young that, guess what, we don't need that to survive anymore.

It may seem sometimes wrong to let some of these things go. If I just wallow in regret, that feels maybe like spiritual conviction. Or if I stay in shame, I won't repeat that sin.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, right. Yeah.

Laurie Davies: Sometimes -- you've already brought this up -- we don't even see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: A physically hoarded home doesn't go from piles of paper on the kitchen table to I have to walk sideways just to shimmy down the hall. That doesn't happen overnight.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Right.

Laurie Davies: You know, it's years and years of accumulation.

And, you know, let's not forget the obvious. We do have an enemy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: He does want us to feel trapped and isolated and ashamed and small and worthless. He wants us to be trapped in all of these things. He wants us to be bound in a state of not freedom. So, yeah, those are some of the reasons we hold on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, those all make a lot of sense to me. Sadly, they make a lot of sense to me. I mean, they make a lot of sense to me because I'm a woman who has lived for many decades, right? So I feel them, I get them, I've experienced them, I have -- I can see all that in my -- what I call thought closet.

But I'll tell you this too, Laurie. I was a psych major in college, so this is resonating with me also. So I am pretty fascinated by this topic of emotional hoarding. So I'm curious, just as you were researching and writing, did anything, like, really go, like, wow or surprise you when you were researching this topic of emotional hoarding?

Laurie Davies: Yes. A couple of things did. I wrote a chapter on grudges and bitterness. Holding grudges are just a nice way of saying we're bitter, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, resentment, all that stuff, yeah.

Laurie Davies: So I discovered there's science on this. And a nationally representative study has found that each of us at any given time are holding an average of seven grudges.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Laurie Davies: Sometimes when I speak, I try to work this forgiveness part into my talks because it's just a universal thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

Laurie Davies: We're all holding grudges. And so I'll drop that seven grudges thing, and I'll see women in the front sometimes sort of looking like, oh, well, that's not me, I'm not -- I don't hold grudges. Which, first of all, is denial.

Second of all, I'll point that out -- you know, I never call anyone out specifically. But I'll point that out that I see these expressions, and I'll say that's -- I'm seeing some sort of pushback, like facial pushback. And if you don't hold grudges, that is very good news for you, but that means the woman next to you is holding 14.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. So be honest.

Laurie Davies: Yeah, yeah. So that was shocking to me that --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: -- seven grudges. And I think also I wrote a chapter on dread.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that one was curious when you mentioned that.

Laurie Davies: Dread isn't something we talk about a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Laurie Davies: But specifically I went after dread in the context of keeping secrets, and I discovered -- there's also science on this. Someone has devoted a career to studying secrets. And we keep 13 secrets on average.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Yeah, I can see that.

Laurie Davies: 97% of the participants in his research were keeping one secret, at least one. So it's a universal thing, 97% of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And some of your listeners just now went to that secret they're keeping --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laurie Davies: -- and they felt dread. They felt so scared that their husband or their family or the public or their people will find out. And I have such compassion for that listener today because it's such a trap.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Laurie Davies: It's such a trap.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, I've never thought of dread as -- but I can see that. And I can -- you know, immediately when you said 13, I started ticking off a few I kept in my heart. I don't know if I could get to 13 at this very moment, but I bet if I thought hard, I could. That's crazy.

Laurie Davies: And I want to point out quickly, not all of these are 13 big skeletons in the closet. There's another household analogy for us, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. There you go.

Laurie Davies: So not all of them are these -- you know, these big sins, like flash them on the screen --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Laurie Davies: -- and we would just...

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Laurie Davies: Some of them are things we want to keep secret -- you know, maybe we have a mental health diagnosis and we just don't want people to know. That's not a sin. That's just something we're keeping in. And maybe the Lord is asking us to -- you know, we don't have to blab all this stuff on social media. We've kind of lost the handle on how to communicate with discretion --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Laurie Davies: -- to our inner circle. You know, Jesus modeled this. He had 12, but he had an inner circle of three.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right.

Laurie Davies: So if you hear yourself in this place of "I feel dread" or "I feel" -- "I struggle with worthlessness," or, "I'm angry all the time, I just struggle with anger," where's your inner circle that you can invite to carry that stuff with you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's good.

Laurie Davies: Because the enemy really wants us to stay isolated and trapped. And all of these things point to shame --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they do.

Laurie Davies: -- for the believer --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they do.

Laurie Davies: -- who knows they're living in an active disconnect with the freedom life that Jesus came to give us. So, yeah. I think I went on a tangent, but...

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it was a good tangent. It was worthy. And --

Laurie Davies: It was worthy. Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was a worthy tangent.

Laurie Davies: Thank you for pouring into my core wound.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's true. I forgot.

But here's what's interesting. As you were describing that too, I thought, you know, there is a difference between something that needs to remain private and something we keep a secret.

Laurie Davies: Correct.

Jennifer Rothschild: And the Holy Spirit will help us discern that along with our inner circle. So I appreciate that. But, you know, dread is rarely associated with private things, but it is often associated with secret things.

Laurie Davies: Secret things, yeah. That's a good distinction. Thank you for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's a good word. Okay, I'm highly recommending this book. I love the concept. I love the way you framed it. And so we're going to get to our last question,

Laurie, because I know that I've resonated with a lot of this and I know I can't wait to go deeper. So I have a feeling some of our listeners are feeling the same way right now.

And so let's say she or he has detected, oh, my goodness, I think I'm an emotional hoarder. And they can even think of the couple of things that they're big hoarding on. So what can that listener do when they finish this podcast? What is the first step to getting free of all of this?

Laurie Davies: Wow, I love that question. I think -- you know, more than anything, I hope the listener understands that the Lord is near. And he's near to us in these pages and he's near to us in this process. Sometimes we'll hear -- and I think it's well-meaning, this notion of, "God feels so far," and we might hear in response to that, "Well, you're the one that moved."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laurie Davies: Which, look, when I'm feeling far from the Lord, I don't want to hear just in that moment that I'm being a jerk and I'm the one that moved. What I want to hear -- what I'm saying is I need relief. I've lost my way. I'm in pain. I need to know that he's near, not that I've been a jerk.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Yeah.

Laurie Davies: And I think the Lord wants us to know this, right? Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. The Lord is close to the brokenhearted. His very name Emmanuel means "God With Us." Jesus' last words were, "I am with you to the very end of the age." So we could go on and on. This is the point he wants us to get.

But I think where we start is understanding we're in a position already of nearness to God, and he's the one who can help us tease out some of the things that we've been hiding or ignoring or haven't even seen the buildup. And he's good. You know, he knows how hard to poke. He won't break us because he loves us and he cares about us and he wants us to be free.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Lord is near. And he is near in this process, so draw near to him. Because if you're brokenhearted, don't forget, he's near to the brokenhearted. I love that Laurie repeated Jesus' last words, "I am with you even until the end of the age."

KC Wright: So good. We start with knowing we are near to him, because he's the one who helps us see what is hidden or ignored. He will to help us unclutter, move from emotional hoarding to spiritual healing. I thought of the verse in the Old Testament describing Jesus, "He will not break a bruised reed."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, I thought of that too, KC.

And I was also thinking when Laurie was sharing, sometimes we just really want a formula. But what we really need most is God's nearness. The Holy Spirit, he is our best counselor. So get in his presence, invite him into your emotional closet, and ask him to identify what you are hoarding. And then, like, get with your people and let them help you. You guys can start cleaning it out together.

KC Wright: For sure. Get Laurie's book. It's so funny, wise, and practical. My favorite kind of book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Kind of like she is --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right?

KC Wright: -- funny, wise, and practical. We'll have a link to it on the Show Notes right now, plus a full transcript of this conversation. 413podcast.com/410.

Well, until next week, our people --

Jennifer Rothschild: You sound so official.

KC Wright: -- let go of that emotional baggage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: You know, one way, well, you can get rid of your emotional baggage --

Jennifer Rothschild: How?

KC Wright: -- is stop talking about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: But that Scripture, "This one thing I do, forgetting those things which lie behind."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: I preached a message once called "Forget About It" --

Jennifer Rothschild: Forget about it.

KC Wright: -- said in my Italian voice. Forget about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Forget about it.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Pray Like St. Francis? With Mark DeYmaz

Mark DeYmaz: If I was king of the American church and you had to do what I say, I'd wave my magic scepter and I would make every single Christ follower in this country memorize that prayer, pray it daily -- because it's not just to pray it, but to act on it -- and just do one thing, just one -- once a day make it your goal to implement an aspect of that prayer.

It'll change your spiritual life, emotionally, and, more importantly, the people around you to advance the peace of Christ in this crazy world.

Jennifer Rothschild: On today's 4:13, author and pastor Mark DeYmaz is going to unpack the Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi. He's going to show you how to apply its timeless wisdom to the challenges that you might even be facing right now. You know, in an age where prayer is often dismissed as passive, Mark is going to reframe true prayer as actually disruptive. It can awaken our conscience, it can fuel action, and compel justice.

So family, let's ask God to make us instruments of his peace. Amen? Amen. All right, here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, KC and I are so glad you're back again. Thank you for joining us. And I gotta say, you're going to love this episode. You're going to love the angle, the paradigm shift. It's going to be a really good episode.

But in case you're new to us, it's just KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy, and me, Jennifer, and it's just two friends and one topic. And there is absolutely no stress in the podcast closet. And, therefore, whatever you're doing -- maybe you're in the car, maybe you're in the kitchen, maybe you're taking a nap or a walk. Whatever you're doing, zero stress. Okay? Put it on hold, press pause. You can pick up your stress later if you want to, but I really don't think it is worth carrying around. So just, ah, enjoy.

KC Wright: Ah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Enjoy a little time.

Okay. Because first of all, I'm about to delight your heart. All right. Not only is your mind going to be awakened when you have this conversation with Mark and me about St. Francis, but your heart is about to be awakened. And here's why.

KC Wright: Ah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you know we've got all these grandkids. And our oldest is named Tripp. Well, he's actually Philip Clayton Rothschild, III.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is way too big of a name for such a little human, so they call him Tripp.

Okay. So Tripp is a part of this school -- it's a classical school -- and they have a thing every year called History Day. Well, he was just now old enough to participate in his first History Day. And the teacher sent home these -- like seven or eight choices of people they could choose to portray on History Day. They had to make a poster, they had to dress up like them, and they had to write a poem.

But because Tripp was eight years old, the teacher said it can be a family experience. Like, if you guys want to help him write the poem, that's fine.

So Caroline, who was pregnant at the time, sends it to me. She goes, "Okay, I'm gonna need you to help me with this because I'm about to have a baby. Which one of these characters would you like?" I said, "Okay, I'm gonna pick St. Francis," thinking no one else will anyway. And, of course, they didn't. So I'm like, "Tripp, you're gonna be St. Francis." We dressed him up like a monk, we put a little stuffed animal on a leash and --

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And then I got to write the little poem.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what you're about to hear -- because you may not know who St. Francis of Assisi is -- you're going to get to hear an eight-year-old rendering of who St. Francis of Assisi was. So this is my grandson on his podcast debut, Tripp Rothschild on History Day.

Tripp Rothschild: I was born in 1182 in a place called Assisi, Italy, where I first grew. My dad had lots of money, my life was a-okay, so you may think it's funny that I gave it all away. Here's how it happened. Once I became a man, I noticed people were hurting, so I chose to lend a hand. I told my dad I loved him, but I knew in my heart that God was calling to help, so it was time for me to start. So instead of living greedy, I worked to help the needy. I lived a life of poverty and lived in humility. I love the animals and all God made, I took care of nature and I never got paid. So you may think I'm odd, but once I preached to birds. I told them to praise God, but I'm not sure if they understood. Today there are some others who live just like me. They are called Franciscan Brothers. They help those in need. So now you know my story and how I lived each day. I hope it brought God glory because he deserves our praise.

KC Wright: Ah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Wasn't that awesome?

KC Wright: So cute.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, the little boy -- now, he does talk pretty fast, so I know our older ears might had to listen a couple of times. But I just thought that was adorable.

KC Wright: Adorbs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And so now you know who St. Francis is, and now you're going to get to hear the meaning of St. Francis' prayer that Mark's going to introduce to us. But here's the thing. You're about to find out something that I did not know. Did he or did he not really write this prayer? Da-da-da-da.

Okay, let's introduce Mark DeYmaz.

KC Wright: Dr. Mark DeYmaz is a thought-leading author, pastor, and recognized champion of the Multiethnic Church Movement. He planted the Mosaic Church of Central Arkansas in 2001, where he continues to serve right now. In 2004 he co-founded the Mosaix Global Network and today serves as its executive director. Mark is the author of eight books. He and his wife, Linda, have been married for more than 40 years and live in Little Rock, Arkansas, near their four adult children and six grandbabies.

All right, you're gonna love this. I can't wait. So here are Mark and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Mark, your book I'm looking forward to talking about, because it is titled, "Make Me an Instrument of Your Peace," and it's "Becoming More Like Jesus Through the Prayer of St. Francis." Now, I happen to love St. Francis. I've actually been able to visit Assisi, and so it's one of my favorite prayers. But somebody listening may not know the prayer and they may not know who St. Francis is. So let's start with introducing who St. Francis is and then give us an idea about his prayer.

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, yeah. Well, ironically, Jennifer -- first I should say thanks so much for having me on your podcast today. It's an honor to be with you.

Ironically -- and I explain this in the book, I think, second chapter. St. Francis is actually not the author of the prayer. In fact, if St. Francis was here with us today, he wouldn't even know what we're talking about. It was anonymously written in 1912 by a writer in France for the Catholic League and published as a -- literally as a wonderful prayer to say during Mass. But nobody knows who wrote the prayer.

Again, published anonymously in 1912. It was not nefariously, if you will, but it was attributed to St. Francis erroneously in World War II when a Catholic priest put the prayer on the one side of a little card, and on the other side he put the picture of St. Francis. Of course, as you well know, Francis is very much aligned with peace and often portrayed as -- you know, with animals and in tune with nature and very contemplative.

And so whoever this priest was put Francis on one side, the prayer on the other, and since World War II, that's when it got attributed again erroneously to Francis. But all to say, I just think that's an interesting thing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too.

Mark DeYmaz: -- anonymous writer, but this world -- this prayer that is so effective and practical and beautiful, frankly, as a poem, a recitation.

But, yeah, Francis, of course, a Catholic monk, Catholic priest, as I mentioned, known for his demeanor, for his contemplative life and -- yeah, and so it just -- it makes sense. Like you're thinking, if there's any Catholic priest or monk that would have wrote this prayer, it would have been Francis, right? But he didn't write it after all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love unlearning that. That is wonderful, but interesting. You're right, the theme of it can easily be attributed to his life, but I love knowing that it wasn't actually him who penned it. And God bless the anonymous person who did.

So tell us what that prayer says for those who don't know it.

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. Well, the best way to tell you what it says is -- let me just say it and we can pray it as we start your podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Mark DeYmaz: Lord, make me an instrument of your peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light. O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. It's beautiful words. You're right, there's poetry there. But the theme really is almost a counterintuitive way to live. It's peace. So I'm curious for you, what would have prompted you, number one, to study that and write about it? And is there a part of that prayer that was, or maybe is, like, the most difficult for you?

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah, great questions. Well, I was raised actually Jesuit Catholic, Jennifer, and Catholic educated, Jesuit high school, et cetera. And an altar boy. Today they're called altar servers. So I was very steeped in my Catholic faith and formed by my Catholic faith. And that prayer, of course, is central, and virtually every Catholic knows it, and it's recited regularly. It almost feels like it came out of the Beatitudes, if you will. It's really a way to live like Jesus.

But having said that, at 19 years old I took another step in my faith journey and began attending a Protestant church with a very vibrant college group, and in time ended up in the Protestant side of the house, so to speak, in non-denominational churches where I've served for 43 years.

And all to say, I was concerned that -- especially in the times in which we live, these crazy times, the people in our church -- it's a multiethnic, economically diverse church in the inner city of Little Rock, doing tremendous work of peacemaking collectively through our nonprofit in our community. And so our church is very well known in the city for meeting people and engaging empathetic needs at the bridge of Christ's humanity.

But after COVID, so many new people came into our church, it was almost like we had -- you know, there was a pre-COVID church, a COVID church, and a post-COVID church.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Mark DeYmaz: And we looked out as leaders in our church and said, hey, we all know that collectively our church does an amazing work of identifying with Christ as a peacemaking church, if you will, but I don't know about you, the person sitting in the seat, and you don't really know about me. So we did a whole series on this prayer, really to form our people and to challenge them and to equip them and encourage them individually from day to day to be a peacemaker.

Now, in simple terms what that means is to follow in the footsteps of the Anointed One. As I explain in the second chapter, Isaiah 53, Luke 4, where Christ actually means Anointed One, he is the promised Messiah. That makes us little M messiahs, little A anointed ones, little C Christs, if you will. And all of the work of this Messiah that we're to identify with, Matthew 5:9, in the work of peacemaking means that we are to be like he was, and that is to be someone who is removing peace-disturbing factors from people's lives.

And that is basically what "shalom" means. To bring shalom is to remove peace-disturbing factors from people's lives or from a community or from a city. And this is the Tzar Shalom that we have, if you will, in Christ, this capital P Peacemaker, this capital A Anointed One, who not only comes to give us eternal life, but to bring abundant and flourishing life in our communities. And so that's the simplest way to say what it means to be a peacemaker.

And then this prayer is a wonderful aspirational prayer, as we just prayed and I recited, but the anonymous author doesn't tell you how to implement this prayer. So -- right? -- the aspiration is, "Make me an instrument of peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there's injury, pardon."

But the author of the prayer -- whether it was a man or a woman, we don't know. But the author doesn't tell you, okay, well, how do I sow love in the midst of hatred? How do I sow pardon in the midst of injury and offense? And how do I sow faith where there is doubt? And generally speaking, then again, how can I at an individual level on a day-to-day basis be someone who is helping to remove -- who's first seeing a peace-disturbing factor in someone's life and then helping to remove that in the footsteps of the great Peacemaker, Jesus Christ himself?

And so that's kind of how the prayer -- we did this series over two and a half years ago, I started the book. And, of course, who would have thought that, you know, this book is released literally as we go to -- whether you want to call it a war, or whatever it is, but, you know, here we are engaged in Iran at the moment that you and I are talking and this book comes out at that same time where the entire world again is crying for peace and we have this wonderful prayer to try to implement.

And so the book again is the practical side of that. Okay, how do we do this, and what does that look like on a day-to-day basis? And that's what I wrote about. In terms of what's the most difficult part of the prayer, I'd say in one sense, like, all of it, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Mark DeYmaz: Because just like Paul, I feel like, you know, oh, wretched man that I am, you know. Who can save me from myself? And, of course, that's Christ, and no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.

But if I had to pick one, I think the aspirational line, "Where there is injury, pardon." I think that's a human thing, right? For us, it's to retaliate or to seek revenge when someone has hurt me, when someone's offended me, when there's injury. And that's the use of the term there.

And twice the author alludes to this idea of pardoning or forgiving, because it is so difficult for us. Our human tendency is, again, to retaliate or to take revenge and to apply that when I've been hurt, especially when you might have hurt my kids or my grandkids or my wife or people I love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, right.

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. So how do you do that? And yet here Christ is on the Cross literally being killed and crucified and looks out on the crowd. Not just the soldiers, but, of course, the Jewish leadership in the time that put him there. "Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing." I mean, the moral and the spiritual fortitude to be able to do that. And to essentially entrust yourself to a faithful Creator, as Peter says, and do what is right, which is to model that aspect of forgiveness.

And so there's a difference, of course, forgiveness and pardon. Pardon, if you think about it -- and that's the term that's used there by the writer. I mean, that's like having your record expunged. And I explain that in the book. It's not just, oh, yeah, no problem, oh, I forgive you and let's go on. It's expunging the person's record. And, of course, in the Old Testament we're told that -- the character of God himself is as far as the east is from the west. I put -- you know, that's how far I've removed your sin. And so, yeah, very difficult on the human level to do that.

But I found even in writing the book and considering this -- I say right early on, hey, look, I am not God's gift to peacemaking. Let me just tell you, I'm an Italian-Russian Jew. Okay? So I can get in the argument with the best of them, so to speak. But, yeah, I -- you know, it's something that we can all work on. And again that's such a critical point, simply saying how can I remove -- as I see people throughout the day, I'm interacting, having in the back of my mind and imprinted on my heart, am I seeing a peace-disturbing factor in this person's life, and how can I remove it? Just an encouraging word.

I was at a conference recently -- I've run conferences myself. And I was at another one and there were some travel problems with weather, et cetera. And I know the organizer. And I woke up very early on the first morning of the conference where hundreds of people are not able to get there. And, you know, the conference is 6,000 or 7,000 people --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's stressful.

Mark DeYmaz: -- and I just texted that person and I just said, Hey, you know -- you know, something -- God's got this. You put a lot of effort. But she wrote back to me and just was so thankful for that little word that someone noticed that, hey, if I'm in your shoes, I'm fretting right now. I put on -- for a year I planned this thing and hundreds of people can't get here, but it's kind of like, don't worry, just do what you gotta do. Trust the rest, God, for what you can't.

And that is a simple example. Imagine, Jennifer, if we all were like that, even just once a day doing that, the butterfly effect of peacemaking we could create as a Christian community in this country.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's a beautiful thought, Mark, and it causes us to be very Philippians 2, you know, not just considering our own self, but to pay attention to the needs of other and regard them as more important. And so to detect peace-disturbing situations in others' lives means we step outside ourself. And I know that the prayer, the peacemaking prayer, is not Scripture. But it is scriptural. Because even as you begin, you know, when you first read the first line, "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace." Like, this is bigger. This is the capital P. This is the big Peace. This is Jesus. And so we want to be his instruments and to see as he sees and love as he loves.

You know, we just had Easter a while back, and we were visiting a different church because we were out of town. And one of the things that pastor said was something like -- and I won't quote him correctly, but I'll get close. Something like, you know, Jesus didn't just die or -- Jesus didn't just come here to live for you, but he came here and he gave his life to you. It wasn't just giving his life for you. That was it. He didn't just give his life for you; he gave his life to you.

And to me that resonates with this conversation. Because it's not a peace we conjure; it's a peace we are given through Christ because he's in us. So therefore, if that's my thinking -- and I'm happy for you to tweak it -- but my question would be, do we as Christians do this? Do we have -- what's our reputation like, you know, for being peacemakers?

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. You're absolutely right, this is biblical, theological. And earlier in our conversation, I referenced Isaiah 53 and Luke 4. I have to apologize. It's actually Isaiah 61 that I was wanting to reference with Christ the Anointed One, the Messiah, et cetera. The reason Isaiah 53 is because, of course, we're talking just after Easter, so I'm thinking Good Friday. I still got Good Friday Easter on my brain. That's the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53.

But to the theological point, Isaiah 61 is where you have -- again, in a long history of promises dating back to Genesis 3:15, you have the introduction of this Anointed One, this one who is going to come on behalf of God. And he is being sent to this world to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, freedom to the prisoners, to give those that believe and follow a crown of beauty instead of ashes, and oil instead of mourning.

And you have all these oppositional statements. But all of this is describing who the Messiah would be, what he is coming to do. And it generally -- as we've already said, in that passage he is the Tzar Shalom. He is the Prince of Peace, the capital P Prince of Peace, and this is what he comes to do. And again, when we give our lives to him as little -- now, we're little C Christ ones, anointed ones, right? We're to follow in his footsteps.

Matthew 5:9, Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be identified with the son -- as the sons and daughters of God. It's the only Beatitude you don't get something for what you do; you are identified with someone for who you are. And that, of course, is being this little P peacemaker, if you will, in his steps, little A anointed, et cetera, Isaiah 61. So that is the playbook from which this came.

And in the second chapter of the book, I imagine this anonymous writer. Where would you get these oppositional statements from and be able to form the deep theology that's actually in this prayer? I imagine they had to have been reading Isaiah 61. And, of course, in Luke 4, when Christ unrolls the scroll in the synagogue at the start of his public ministry, he cites Isaiah 61, and basically in terms -- our terms today, he goes, "That's me. I'm that guy." All right?

And so he identifies himself with the Tzar Shalom of Isaiah 61, the Anointed One, the Christ to come, to set all these wrongs and make them right to his people, if you will, and to the people of God. So deeply formative from Luke 4, Isaiah 61, Matthew 5:9, tons of theology.

Now, to the other part of what you just said, in the first chapter I talk about where we are in context as a country, and really anybody, just our world at the moment. And basically this is rooted in Barna stats, or statistics, that are behind the He Gets Us Campaign. And about 80% of the U.S. adult population, some 219 million people out of 250 or so, 47 million in America today, over 80% have a favorable view of Jesus. They believe that he actually lived 2,000 years ago, that his teaching is good for society, that he was empathetic, and they have all these positive things to say about Jesus. And I explain that and show the stats in that first chapter.

But by almost the exact same percentages in the opposite way, adult people in America today, they do not like Christians, they do not like Christianity, and they do not like the church. So they love Jesus. They got zero problem with Jesus. But they got a problem with Christians, Christianity, and the church. And so -- and that's for a variety of reasons, and I talk about that in the first chapter.

Now, with all that in mind, I really believe we're living in a Matthew 5:16 century. What did Jesus say in Matthew 5:16? "Let them see your good works and they will glorify your Father in heaven." The idea of glorifying is like shining a light into the darkness. When people are groping in the darkness, how will they see him? Jesus says in Matthew 5:16, he says, "Let them see your good works." And he doesn't say let them hear your good words. In the 20th century, it was very linear, very apologetic, let them hear your good words. And, of course, people still use words to explain the Gospel and see people come to Christ.

But in the 21st century, we have to lead with works, because we have to earn the right to be heard, as was said years ago by Young Life decades ago. But that's the moment we're living in. In the Chronicles, it says that the men of Issachar, the people of Issachar, understood the times and knew what was right for Israel to do. An approach. Not a moral right, but an approach for the nation. And that recognized there were times past, times present, times coming.

So we are in, my opinion, a Matthew 5:16 century, and we have to lead with demonstrative works, engaging people at the bridge of Christ's humanity, feeding the poor and clothing and working with the immigrant and at-risk children and the opioid addict, and being engaged, not just from a distance, but actually in community with these people, demonstrating the reconciling work of Jesus Christ, the power of him to overcome all of these problems and to do the work of peacemaking, and that then is the credible evidence that there is a God who loves all people, not just some, and helps us move them from the bridge of Christ's humanity ultimately to where we want to see them, and that is to cross the bridge of his divinity, essentially to give their lives to Christ. So this is very much a works-over-words century, and there is no greater work that we can do than identifying with Christ in the work of peacemaking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's so good. And our words fall short and are hollow and offensive if the works do not match. So, yeah, I love this, Mark. This is a great framework to think through. I'm so grateful that -- just how you have assimilated this prayer into such a very practical way to live during this century.

And so I hear how being peacemakers can change our culture, can change our church, can impact, but I'm curious personally, for a personal believer, how does praying for peace or doing the work of peacemaking, how does it impact us personally, like our mental and emotional health?

Mark DeYmaz: That's such an insightful and a good question. I really mean that. Because obviously since we did the series, and then, of course, working on the manuscript and the two-year process for the book to come to life just in the month of March 2026, I -- you know, as I already mentioned, hey, I'm not God's gift to it. I work at it, we work at it collectively, but it's really put it at the forefront of my daily living. It's kind of forced me to think about, hey, I wrote the book on it, I gotta be -- I gotta be practicing --

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm going to live it.

Mark DeYmaz: -- you know, think about it. And so just that whole process has really put it at the forefront of my brain from day to day. And I can't tell you how many times, just even since the book's come out in the last month, where I'm in a situation of one way or another, whether it's writing a card to someone or sending a note or seeing someone here -- like, literally I posted about this this past Sunday, when a convicted sex offender -- who's out, but I happen to know that about this person -- came up to me during the Easter service and thanked me -- in the middle of worship, thanked me for allowing him to be in the room.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Mark DeYmaz: Now, this is on the same Sunday -- okay? -- the same Sunday that one of our -- we had -- two of our teaching pastors shared the message. This is just two days ago from when we're talking about right now. We're on a Tuesday. It was whatever. Sunday. And a woman in our church from the community, who has some mental health problems, literally flashed one of our preachers while they're preaching for, like, two minutes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my.

Mark DeYmaz: Took their top down. And he said, like, "When I saw it at first, I thought this surely is not" -- he scanned the crowd, came back to it, surely it was. And fortunately, a retired pastor's wife, who happened to see it, went over and dealt with it appropriately.

Now, the reason I bring up these crazy stories -- okay? -- this literally happened, you know, two days ago on Easter in our -- we had four services -- in a couple services. But our response collectively and my response in that moment -- right? -- are formed by having that prayer in mind. And where, like, our first reaction is we gotta, you know, suspend -- we gotta kick that woman out of the church. Because she did it very intentionally, and we have it on camera. That's our first response, kick her out -- if you will, it's like punitive, discipline. We got to protect the flock. And that's just a human response.

But as our executive team talked about it this morning, we realize we're not in the business of punishing people, we're in the business of helping to remove peace-disturbing factors from their lives.

And this woman obviously has a peace-disturbing factor, some mental issues. We have a counseling clinic -- John Brown University has their counseling clinic in our building. And so rather than respond in a punitive way, we reminded ourselves our goal is to restore her to wholeness.

And so instead of seeing it as an affront to the preacher or an affront to the church or affront to Christ, our -- we change the way we think about it. And so now we're going to send her to counseling for three months. We basically put together a plan to, in a sense, if you will, like, suspend her from the church while --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure. Right.

Mark DeYmaz: -- she goes through a counseling period --

Jennifer Rothschild: Protect the flock, but --

Mark DeYmaz: -- and allow the counselors to inform us of how to play it, Christ-centered counselors, et cetera. So I'm just saying that's real time, like, as of two hours ago, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Wow.

Mark DeYmaz: And that type of thinking is spurred because of our series on peacemaking, because how, you know, we want to live. And it changes our emotion, you know, like, it dials back the emotion of the potential anger or whatever it is. And I can't tell you how often that's happening.

So my own spiritual life, my emotional life. And it really is -- that prayer -- you know, if I was king of the American church and you had to do what I say, I'd wave my magic scepter and I would make every single Christ follower in this country memorize that prayer, pray it daily -- because it's not just to pray it, but to act on it -- and just do one thing, just one -- once a day make it your goal to implement an aspect of that prayer. It'll change your spiritual life, emotionally, and more importantly the people around you, to advance the peace of Christ in this crazy world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's super good. And so then here's a hard question. And I love how the Spirit led you to handle the woman who clearly has her own brokenness. So way to bring wholeness by trying to bring healing and still protect the flock, Pastor. That's not easy. Well done.

But here it brings me to a question. So how do we balance being peacemakers with this biblical call to stand up for truth and justice?

Mark DeYmaz: Yeah. Well, very, very good. I don't see those as separate things. Like, in other words --

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, good answer.

Mark DeYmaz: -- it's not an either/or. Like, no, that is exactly what Micah tells us, right? But to do justice and love mercy and to walk humbly. And those three things coupled with Philippians 2 and the example of Christ who emptied himself of power, position, and privilege, came down to push us up and to give us those things that we didn't have apart from him. Peacemaking, justice, mercy, compassion, it's all intersected.

And when you use this idea of speaking up or standing up -- in that book I lean into it a bit. I've done a lot more thinking about this, and writing and speaking about this idea of what does it mean to speak up or stand up. In the last 15 years or so, a phrase has been propagated in the United States certainly, and the phrase itself is "Silence is complicity."

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Yes, I've heard that.

Mark DeYmaz: And this phrase permeates our society today. And intrinsically, basically none of us want to be complicit with evil. And so in that sense, yeah, it's right. Yeah, I don't want to be complicit. But it's driving Christians, and particularly pastoral leaders -- that phrase is driving them to feel they have to comment on every single thing that happens from day to day.

Everything from a Super Bowl performance to the latest presidential tweet to -- you know, on and on. And not just pastors, but CEOs and organizational leaders, as well as just general people, none of us want to be complicit. So now we're speaking all the time about every single thing. Of course, social media and smartphones gives us the way to do that.

But think about that statement. I really don't like that statement, and here's why. Because there's no nuance in it. Silence can be complicity, I agree, and I -- certainly there are times I do not need to be silent with my lips. I need to stand up or speak out, et cetera, because silence can be complicity. But is it true that silence is always complicity? And I would say no.

Solomon calls silence wisdom. There is a time to speak and a time to remain silent. James calls silence moral discipline. Be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger. And there are many ways to speak, and words are one of them. But as I learned as a little boy, and I'm sure you did, and everybody knows, actions speak louder than words.

So I think that there's -- when we think about peacemaking, justice, mercy, compassion not being complicit, I think there's a lack of nuance with that statement. It's a dogmatic statement, it's not accurate, and it drives a lot of people -- it drives people a lot to speak on things they have no idea about.

Let's say I'm a -- you know, I'm a pastor, but I'm not a politician and I'm not an educator. But I think because I've got traction as a pastor that -- and I don't want to be complicit, I'm going to comment on all these other things, like actors telling us how to run a country. It's like you -- you can't assume your expertise in one area carries over to others. But again, for a lot of reasons, people are doing that today, and all of that creates noise.

And the more you speak often, actually nobody's listening. But when you -- like a surgeon when you know when to speak, when you discipline yourself, when you stay silent, when you act more than you speak and you do the work of peacemaking, that's what people actually listen to. And they pay attention to it because they know when you do speak or when you do act, it's meaningful, and you're not just someone who's called a blithering idiot, where you're just speaking about every single issue.

No one's paying attention to you because we already know what you think. But I would say there's a lot of formation and thought that probably -- not just probably -- that should, you know. But how can I control that, right? That's just my thought, though, on that.

But, yeah, peacemaking, justice, mercy, compassion, it's all intersected, and that in and of itself is what makes a statement today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word. And, you know, when you said that, I've been around people who have something to say about every single thing, and you're right, I hear nothing they say 'cause I'm drowning in their words. But words well chosen when the Spirit leads, that are designed not for our own self-promotion but to truly promote peace, those become a lifeline for people that they can grab on. So good word, Pastor.

Mark DeYmaz: Well, thank you. You're absolutely right -- and I know we're running out of time -- but that's the exact thing that as a Christian, if you're listening to this podcast, and being a peacemaker -- just start with that. Start with the wisdom of when do I speak, when do I not? Remove peace-disturbing factors and work with the words you choose. Because Christ died on that Cross for all people, not just some.

And if you think about the metaphor in that, especially in America where we live today, he died with his arms outstretched to the right and to the left. He didn't drop his right arm to hold on to all the people on the left, nor did he drop his left arm to hold all the people on the right. And those opposites can be political, you know, right, the Republicans, and Democrats on the left, or black and white, or rich and poor, or men and women.

All the divisions of our world, he holds every one in tension. "If I be lifted up," he said, "I draw all people." Not just some people, "all people to myself." And the unity is actually in the tension.

But particularly Christians today and churches, we don't want that tension, so we get in churches that think and speak like we want them to speak or whatever, and we only hang around with people who think and speak and act like us. That is not the tension of Christ. The tension is good. It's not a fighting tension. As you mentioned, Jennifer, it's the Philippians 2 tension. Do not just merely think about my own people group's interests, but also the interests of other people groups in creating this healthy, multi-ethnic, economically diverse church that mirrors heaven on earth as an embassy mirrors the country it represents.

And as ambassadors of Christ -- you know, last time I looked at ambassadors around the world, they don't get to say whatever they want. They have to speak for the president or for the king or for the government that they represent. And we are called to do that. I have opinions on tons of stuff, Jennifer, just like a lot of people, right? Whether it's politics or whatever, I got tons of opinions. But the moral discipline to withhold those opinions and let my work speak, and to realize that I don't get to say what I want to say.

I -- and, yes, I'm an American, I have that right, I totally understand. But at the end of the day, I'm formed by my identity in Christ and I am here to represent him as an ambassador. And I want to speak with the wisdom of Christ and I want -- and I don't always do it, of course. None of us do. But that's the ultimate goal. It's not -- I don't want you to know what Mark DeYmaz is thinking, I want you to know what Jesus Christ is thinking, and doing my best to express myself in both word and deed as an ambassador of Christ and not -- you know, not my own opinions, if you will.

Jennifer Rothschild: May our words be few and rightly spoken, and may each of our words be Spirit led. Oh, friends, we are his ambassadors, ambassadors of the Prince of Peace, so may we speak peace, live peace, do peace. Like, let's just be peace.

KC Wright: Amen. You said it.

Now, 413ers, go to the Show Notes and get Mark's book. This is a beautiful prayer, and Mark goes through it line by line and shows us exactly how to pray it. And -- here's the kicker -- live it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: The Show Notes are at 413podcast.com/409.

Until next week -- I don't really like that line because --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you don't. You never wanna leave.

KC Wright: -- we're gonna miss you -- ask God to make you an instrument of his peace. He will. And then live that peace. You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too. I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: You know, as I get older, more mature, now that that I'm in my 30s, I would rather have peace in my life than all the money in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: Peace is where it's at.

Jennifer Rothschild: It sure is.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Still Trust God When Everything Seems To Go Wrong? With Anne Graham Lotz & Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright

Anne Graham Lotz: Don't wait until a crisis hits before you establish a personal relationship with God through faith in Jesus. You do that now when things are going well, and then you develop that relationship so when things go bad, the relationship is there, it's strong, it's rooted in God's Word, and he will carry you through.

But it's -- you don't want to react to a crisis by then scrambling to try to get yourself right with God. You need to get right with God now and then you're prepared for whatever life throws at you.

Jennifer Rothschild: On today's episode, Anne Graham Lotz and her daughter, Rachel-Ruth Wright, are going to reveal how one man's life was turned upside down and set on a path that he would have never chosen. But it was a path that led to God's ultimate purpose for his life. The man? Joseph. So with Scripture, honest stories, and deep insight, Anne and Rachel-Ruth are going to give you tons of encouragement.

So if you're facing life struggles, or maybe you just need a little reassurance, I want you to know you're about to hear that God is in the details. So let's get encouraged.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Jennifer and KC here. We have one goal, and it's to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you, along with us, are living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13, because it is through Christ. All of it is through Christ. The two biggest words in that verse are not "I can."

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: The two biggest words in that verse are "through Christ." That's the only way we want to operate, our friends.

So I'm so glad we're talking today. It's fun. We're to talk with Anne and her daughter, Rachel-Ruth, and, gosh, all about somebody we know and love, Joseph.

KC Wright: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: Hey, speaking of Joseph --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- do you want to interpret a dream I've had recently?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I was a psychology major. Let's give it our best shot. Yeah, tell me your dream. Tell me your dream.

KC Wright: Okay. No, seriously, I do not believe this is a God dream. I don't.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: I do believe God can speak through dreams --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

KC Wright: -- but 100% of the time God is going to speak through --

Jennifer Rothschild: The Word.

KC Wright: -- his precious holy written Word. Okay? However, I do want to tell you about this dream I had.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, tell me.

KC Wright: Okay. I was backstage with CeCe Winans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Okay. We're gonna have CeCe on the podcast in the future --

Jennifer Rothschild: We need to.

KC Wright: -- by the way.

Jennifer Rothschild: We need to, yes.

KC Wright: I am in love with CeCe.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you are, KC.

KC Wright: Okay. Anyway, CeCe, by the way -- this is so random -- took me into another room where she was showing me her new clothing line. Anyway --

Jennifer Rothschild: In your dream?

KC Wright: In my dream.

Jennifer Rothschild: She has got a new clothing line in your dream and she's showing you?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is awesome. Keep going.

KC Wright: Okay. Then CeCe decided to escape fame and live on the north side of our town and attend my church.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: Okay? Now, the news headlines on all the TV stations were, "Gospel Music Legend CeCe Is Missing." I knew where she was --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: -- and I was torn with honoring her and letting her rest from fame, yet reporting her because of pastoral integrity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. You're a very complex case.

KC Wright: Then I woke up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Wow. Okay.

KC Wright: Now, I think this happened because Elliana had said the other day -- she goes, "Dad, I'm so thankful you're out of your CeCe era," because we're listening to something else in my Jeep besides "The Goodness of God." Now I'm in to Chris Tomlin "Is He Worthy?" And I get stuck into these songs.

Jennifer Rothschild: I listen to that all the time too, by the way. I love Chris Tomlin "Are You Worthy?"

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or "Is He Worthy?"

KC Wright: "Is He Worthy?" yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right. I'm going to try my best to interpret this. All right, here we go. Let me sound like I -- like you should pay me $150 for this interpretation. First of all, KC, I think this shows you have a caring, nurturing nature and you feel protective of those who you feel like are vulnerable in ministry.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right? So that's one.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Secondly, you have a need to be known. So if someone who is more famous and is known knows you, then you feel more esteemed.

KC Wright: Huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you were trying to accomplish that in your dream also.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: You might have been feeling a little lack of being known.

KC Wright: Huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay?

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Then --

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Cece's showing you the clothing line.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Here's what that means. That you have felt now like you are privileged because you know something that is private.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you -- your psyche is seeking that sense of a privileged status that comes only from something that is private --

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- or secret or not known. So you have this juxtaposition of fame, that she's trying to escape, and privacy that you're giving her. So see how it all fits?

KC Wright: JR, I'm getting chill bumps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. There you go. $150, please. I just interpreted your dream. Okay. Not as well as Joseph.

KC Wright: But it was so true. I had such a pastor's heart for her.

Jennifer Rothschild: You did. You're trying to protect her.

KC Wright: I was torn. I was like, I have to protect her.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you also feel this need for ethics and telling the truth --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I know.

KC Wright: I had to let the news media know that I -- she -- I knew exactly where she was.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, all you need to do is put one of those, you know, nice little sweaters that she has in her clothing line for men, you just put that on and be a happy pastor.

Okay. All right, we gotta introduce Anne --

KC Wright: So funny.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's get real here, because, you and me, we're just kind of splashing around in the silly shallow end.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Though I think that was rather impressive. I love CeCe too. And if she ever comes on the podcast, you are definitely interviewing her, because I want to see you fanboy out.

Okay, let's introduce Anne and Rachel-Ruth.

KC Wright: Anne Graham Lotz, once called the best preacher in the family by her dad, Billy Graham, is a best-selling author of more than 20 books. No matter what this woman does, her one goal is crystal clear, to bring revival to the hearts of God's people. And that is 100% facts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: She is so awesome. Love her heart.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright is the daughter of Anne Graham Lotz and granddaughter of Billy Graham. She is married to Steven Wright and has three daughters. She teaches an online Bible study that reaches over 137 different countries, with thousands of attendees.

Now, settle in and listen now as Jennifer talks to Anne and Rachel-Ruth about their latest book called "God Won't Leave You There."

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Rachel-Ruth and Anne, this is very fun to have you guys together. And so you've written this new book together which is titled, "God Won't Leave You There." Okay. Now, my understanding is you have organized it into these three sections: God Is With You, God Is Guiding You, and God Will Bring You Through. Okay. And this traces, obviously -- and we're going to unpack in a minute -- Joseph's life.

But before we even get to Joseph, I want to know how those three sections, those three concepts, represent our own lives. So which one of you wants to tackle that first?

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I mean, I think there's so many ways that -- just following the life of Joseph. I mean, that's how we got that.

But for our own lives, God is with us when we have been through suffering, which is why we wrote this book in the first place. I think one of the reasons -- Mom and I have been through so much that we have learned and seen and experienced ourselves that God is with us.

And when things are really hard, that's when we're clinging to him and talking to him and crying to him. And in looking back, we can see how God was with us through those really difficulties and bad things in our lives.

And then God guided us through. He was teaching us, he was disciplining us in some ways. He was building character in us, he was drawing us to himself in those -- we call them the middle years, the years when -- the time when you're just in the middle of suffering and it's really hard.

And then God will see you through, no matter what situation. And some things he has seen us through, some of the suffering he has seen us through, some things we're still going through, and some things we may always go through until we go to heaven when we're ultimately set free.

But the whole thing is is that God is a personal God. He's with us throughout all of it, and he's got something to teach us. And he will bring us through to stronger character, closer relationship to him, healing in different ways, and ultimately into heaven. But I'm just -- I'm so thankful to have a God that's Emmanuel, God With Us.

Anne Graham Lotz: Jennifer, if I can speak up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: It's important not to waste those middle years.

You know, it's when Joseph was betrayed or seized by his brothers and sold into slavery, God used that to get him to Egypt where he needed him to be. And then when Joseph was in Potiphar's house, you know, that Joseph learned the Egyptian language there, the culture. He learned administrative ability and how to run fields and something about the agriculture in Egypt. And then when he was betrayed by Potiphar's wife and then thrown into prison, it was Pharaoh's prison. He was a political prisoner.

So you know while he was there, he learned something about the government and the way that operates and about Pharaoh's court.

So he was prepared. It took 14 years of enslavement and imprisonment before he was elevated to Pharaoh's court. And he didn't waste it. He learned something everywhere he went. God was with him, God granted him favor, and God used him even though he kept -- seemed things went from bad to worse, you know.

And I think for us, we think that this one point in time is it, but this -- whatever we're going through is temporary. Even if it lasts your lifetime, it's temporary compared to eternity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Anne Graham Lotz: And we just don't want to waste what God is teaching us. I've taught my kids, from when they were little, that this life is like boot camp for eternity. God is putting things here in this life to prepare you for serving him in eternity. So it's just -- Joseph is a beautiful example of not wasting that suffering and all the things that life threw at him, but using it and then prepared for when God called him out.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I know that that's what you two have also done. And in a little bit I want to get to some of your own personal pit moments and how God has seen you through and what you've learned.

But for those who -- you know, you kind of articulated, both of you, some of the principles and then some of the actual physical places that Joseph experienced. So let's just summarize his journey. Okay? So it started as a pit. He's sold into slavery. He gets into Potiphar's house where he is serving there. Then he gets unjustly accused. He's in prison. And then finally he is in a palace. Okay.

So someone listening, they are hearing that and they're going, okay, yeah, I'm feeling stuck in what you called, Rachel-Ruth, those middle chapters of my story, like, it's the pit or the prison, and they have no idea that there really is going to be the spiritual equivalent of this palace coming up. So what can you say to them besides just don't waste those years? What else can you say to them to encourage them?

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: Well, I know for just stuff that I've gone through, when you're in those seasons where it is just raw and hard and difficult and you don't see your way out of it, it's then that we have to cling to the Lord. And it's during those times where the Lord really taught me to trust him and to know that he will walk me through. And as hard as some of this stuff is that I've gone through, the hardest parts of my life are when I felt so much joy in knowing that Jesus was with me and that I was suffering for -- in a sense to understand a little bit of what Jesus went through on the cross.

But I think for somebody in the middle of it, you have to trust and know that he is a good, good Father, and he loves you, and he is not somebody that's like, Oh, let's let her go through this and let's put her through -- like, he loves you. And if something has hit your life, it is for a reason. There is a purpose to it. And Joseph's life shows us that, that every single thing that happened to him was for a reason.

And so I think that's been just huge for me to know that there's a purpose in what I'm going through, there is a reason for this. He's teaching me, he's training me. There's just -- there's so much more to it than what we can see in our present suffering, and there's a greater picture. And we've just got to know that God is a good, good Father and he will see us through. And rely on him. Go to God's Word, read the Bible, you know, claim the promises that he gives us, and just know that he's got a perfect plan for your life.

Jennifer Rothschild: There is a purpose. And that's why we don't waste it, because we know there's a purpose in it.

All right. So, Anne, when we are in the pit or in the prison, truly the reality is God is our peace, right, ladies? I mean, that's the reality. So, Anne, I'm curious, in your life, how have you experienced that peace even in what might be a pit for you? Like, you know, the time after your husband passed, or you've even fought your own cancer situation. So how has God been your peace in those situations?

Anne Graham Lotz: You know, Jennifer, I don't think that -- peace isn't something you grab or -- it's just -- to me, it's deeply implanted because of my relationship with the Lord. And what Rach-Ruth was saying in that I trust God to be good. I know his will is best. That whatever happens in my life, according to Romans 8:28, is for my good when I love him and I'm in his will. I'm called according to his purpose.

And so -- you referred to my husband's death. We'd been married 49 years when I found him unresponsive in our pool. And got him to the hospital. Three days later, we released him to go on to eternity. But it was very sudden and we didn't have a chance to say goodbye. And then it was three years later that my father went to heaven, very suddenly also. He was almost 100 years old, but we didn't expect him to go that morning at breakfast. We didn't have a chance to say goodbye.

And within six months of that, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Went through surgery, chemotherapy, radiation, the whole nine yards. And I never tried to have peace. I never sought peace. I just had peace. God gives you peace, and it's based on my relationship with the Lord.

When I was a girl, Jennifer -- and I'll just tell you this. It was a Good Friday when I was eight or nine years of age. I don't remember the year. I remember the day. I'd watched a picture about Jesus on television. And it came to the scene of the Cross, I knew he had died for me.

And so I told him I was sorry for the wrong things I'd done, I wanted -- asked him to forgive me, to come into my heart. I claimed him as my Savior and my Lord, and I believe I was born again into God's family at that moment. And one of the things he gives each one of us when we make that decision, he places peace in our heart. He places joy, he gives us hope.

And then I've grown in that throughout the years, and it's been now almost a lifetime, and I've grown in that relationship with him, and it's my relationship with him that gives me peace.

So this is what I would say to those who are listening. Don't wait until a crisis hits before you establish a personal relationship with God through faith in Jesus. You do that now, when things are going well, and then you develop that relationship so when things go bad, the relationship is there, it's strong, it's rooted in God's Word, and he will carry you through.

But it's -- you don't want to react to a crisis by then scrambling to try to get yourself right with God. You need to get right with God now and then you're prepared for whatever life throws at you. And life can throw some -- you know, some pretty mean things.

But God has been with me. And sometimes at the moment that I'm going through it, I don't sense his presence. Like Moses in the cleft of the rock when he wanted to see God's glory, and God said, You can't see my face, but I'll pass by, you can see my backside. And there are times when God has put me in the cleft of the rock, but it's a hard place, and then he passes by so I don't -- I'm not aware of his presence at the moment, but I look back and I see how he's been faithful to me through the whole thing.

So it's important to have that relationship with him, to know sometimes you may feel abandoned. But I never go on my feelings. I go on my faith. And Hebrews says that God will never leave me, he'll never forsake me, and so I'm -- I'm confident of that whether I feel his presence or not. And it's my relationship with him, the confidence I have in my relationship with him, that I'm born again, that I know I'm saved, I know the Holy Spirit lives within me, I know one day I'll go to heaven. That gives me peace.

So the peace is something that's steadfast. It's like a deep river that runs underneath.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and as Rachel-Ruth was saying, you know, that God being with us, he is Emmanuel, he is our Prince of Peace. So yet it's not something we produce, it's something we receive and have and live out because he is with us. It's beautiful.

So, Rachel-Ruth, in the book you also point out that Joseph suffered, but he never got bitter about it. Okay? And I know you've had your own journey of suffering, though I don't understand it well. Something about your heart. I would love for you to kind of share that with us and explain how Joseph's story of endurance, like, may have been -- informed the way you've managed your own situation.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: Yeah. So four years ago -- I mean, I feel like I -- I always want to say, Mom and I have been through -- for whatever reason, God has allowed us to have lots of suffering in our life. But this is -- this was the big one, a big one for me.

But four years ago, I went in for a routine stress test where you get on a treadmill and you run, you know, they check your heart and stuff. And I'd had them before, it was fine. I didn't have a serious heart problem at all, it was just nothing. And I went in and the appointment was a disaster. The person -- the whole thing, it was really not a good situation. And I passed out a bunch of times and walk out crying.

And so four days later, I just kept having chest pain, and I didn't know what it was. And so I finally called the doctor, he's like, "Go to the ER." And so I went to the ER, and that's where they found out I was having a rare kind of heart attack called SCAD, spontaneous coronary artery dissection, where the inside of my arteries in my heart were literally shredding. And the first one -- it was super painful. I mean, morphine didn't even touch it.

And so I had the first one, and then the next day I -- by God's wonderful mercy, I was still in the hospital and had the second one that was -- I was dying from. It was so scary. And lost all the feeling in my body and everything. And then God just supernaturally brought me back. And they rushed me to the OR and put stents in my heart. And they said it had -- one of my arteries had shredded from the top to the bottom in my heart. And they'd never seen a worse one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: And so God just allowed me to live. Like, it's supernatural that I'm alive. But then it left me for -- three years after that with a lot of heart pain. Because it's not like a normal heart attack. It causes lots of chest pain, lots of heart pain, the scar tissue and everything.

But anyhow, the thing that is the struggle -- you know, during that was not becoming bitter. Because a lot of times I was like, I was so healthy, I was fit, I was doing great. I had my girl -- you know, raising my girls, and whatever, going to football games, and now I just was in a constant panic that something was going to happen, I was going to have another one. And I didn't want to grow bitter.

And studying Joseph -- I was teaching my Bible study, and I got to the point of teaching Joseph, and Joseph never got bitter. It's unbelievable. When his brother sees him thrown in a pit, he gets sold into slavery, he could have been like, God, where are you? How could you let this happen to me? My life God was so good, and this is not what I had planned for myself. And he missed the end of his teen years, his 20 years, his years of his 20-year-old ages.

And he never got angry with God. He didn't sabotage Potiphar's house, he didn't throw a fit and sit on the floor in the cell in the prison. He didn't grow bitter. And that just spoke volumes to me. And look what God did with a life completely surrendered to him.

And we have got to let go of bitterness because it will eat you alive in every way, physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally. And so sometimes bitterness comes knocking every door, and you -- every morning, and you just have to forgive. You've got to let go and know that God is a good God and he's got a purpose in what we're going through.

Jennifer Rothschild: Word. Okay. So as I'm listening to that, though, I'm thinking, yes, we do have to forgive. But here's the thing. When we struggle and -- or suffer, and it's because of loss, you know, like losing your dad and losing your husband, a heart condition, things that are really essentially out of our control, right? Sometimes when I have physical issues, that kind of stuff, it's easier for me to deal with -- okay? -- for me personally. But if I'm struggling or suffering because someone hurt me or someone betrayed me, ooh, that's just so much harder for me.

And so a lot of Joseph's suffering was because of betrayal and -- you know, by his family. But then even when he gets to Potiphar's house, Potiphar's wife, like, she accuses him of nasty things that he didn't do, so he's unjustly accused.

All right. So somebody listening, that's their story right now. How do you counsel them if they really want to trust that God is sovereign in the middle of all this, but they're really having a hard time because people have been very wrong toward them?

Anne Graham Lotz: Jennifer, I'll take that one. And I won't go into the details. But my husband and I were in essence thrown out of the church where we'd been members for 15 years. And he had been chairman of the Board of Deacons, he taught the largest men's Sunday school class. And so we were very sad. We raised our children in that church. And they turned on us, and it was because of our stand on the inerrancy -- the infallibility of God's Word, and in essence threw us out. So it made the front page of the paper for about ten days in a row that I had been thrown out, you know, of church.

And so it was -- and that was a wounding. They say that that's one of the most painful things. If your house burns to the ground or if you're thrown out of a church or have trouble in church, those are the two most painful things you can go through. Because church is supposed to be a place where you feel safe --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Anne Graham Lotz: -- and instead, all of a sudden they turn on you. And when they did and they voted us out, the whole church applauded. About 600 people applauded.

So the Lord led us out, but what I had to work through is forgiveness. And I had to make the choice to forgive the people who had done that and the way they'd orchestrated it. And not only forgive them, make the choice to forgive, but then I felt like I needed to reach out and do something that would bless them.

And God showed me a way I could do that and -- in other words, act out my forgiveness by doing something that would bless them and -- individuals in the church who had done that to us. And that's what set me free. And not only that, but knowing that God is the judge. "Vengeance is mine," says the Lord. He will repay. He will hold those people accountable in his own way, in his own time. I don't have to do that.

And so I think it's what Jesus does for us. And that's where I learned it, from 1 John in Scripture, where Jesus -- because of his love for us, he went to the Cross, he died to forgive us. And so God made the choice to forgive us for Jesus' sake, but then he did something for us by sending Jesus to the Cross. Not only dying, but then raising him from the dead to give us eternal life. And so he forgave us, then he did something for us over and above anything that we deserved.

And so I feel like the Lord set me free when I was wounded by others. In fact, I've written a book called "Wounded by God's People" that's gone through -- I go through quite a few experiences where I've been wounded by God's people. But the key is forgiveness. And you have to forgive that other person. If you don't, if you hold on to your unforgiveness thinking that if you forgive them they'll get by with it, then unforgiveness is like drinking the poison hoping the other person will die. And it doesn't hurt them, it hurts you. It develops a root of bitterness that the Bible says will rise up and defile your whole life. You have to make the choice to forgive.

And then I think to set yourself free, you need to go over and above that. You write them a note, place a phone call, take them a casserole if it's a next-door neighbor, or something that you can do to bless them. And then their response to that is up to them, but it sets you free.

And there's some people I can't engage. I know that I can't -- it's like a -- you know, you just get stuck in it if you engage back and forth. And so I've forgiven them, I've reached out to bless them, and then I just have to get on with my life and trust that God's going to sort it all out in the end. Reconciliation takes two people. So I can forgive. But if they're not willing to recognize their sin and also be willing to forgive, then there can't be reconciliation.

And you see at the end of Joseph's life -- not at the end, but towards the end of his story in Genesis, he takes his brothers through what seems like a game almost. It's like a series of events. But what he's doing is bringing them to the point that they would recognize their guilt and their shame and their sin of having sold him into slavery. And as a result of that, they end up as a family reconciling with each other. It's a beautiful story.

And not only that -- not only he forgave, but he reached out and blessed them in incredible ways by taking care of them for the rest of their lives in a very incredible -- in just a wonderful manner. He didn't hold a grudge. You could tell that he had truly forgiven as he let it go and then blessed them. So that's what sets you free.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, that's good. And hard. And hard. It cannot be done outside the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God.

Anne Graham Lotz: That's right. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And, you know, when you think about it, ladies, what if Joseph had pouted in prison? What if he had ran away from Potiphar's house? What if all the things and he had just said, That's it. I'm done. I am not forgiving? The story outside of the sovereignty of God would have ended very differently. I mean -- it would have ended very differently. And so thank you, Lord. What an example for us.

And another thing to me, y'all, that is very interesting about Joseph is that -- you look at his whole story and he doesn't seem, like, just to be fighting. Like, he's not always fighting every circumstance. But he's also not passive in the midst of it. So I would like you -- whoever wants to take this, or both of you, to explain the difference between resignation and faith.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I'd have to think about that. I think Joseph -- I think he was just so determined to bring God glory in everything that he did, that he had that great faith. When he was -- I mean, everything bad that could happen happened. And then when you think it couldn't get any worse, it got worse.

Jennifer Rothschild: It got worse, yeah.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: And so he had every reason to just give up on the Lord. He had every reason to -- if I'm thinking -- answering your question correctly. But he had every reason just throw in the towel and to not continue on, but he had such great faith and he wasn't a wimp. I mean, what he was doing was a very, very difficult thing, I mean, to come in. It took time, it took energy, it took thought to make Potiphar's house thrive.

And then when Potiphar's wife, you know, looks at him and wants to sleep with him, and he's like, How could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God, that his -- you see a glimpse into his heart for the Lord. Like, he cared more about the things of God than about a fleeting fancy, you know, just something like that.

And then he gets thrown into prison and he then again could just be like, Why? you know. But he then learns more things about Pharaoh's court while he's in prison. He learns how things are run there and he's, you know, closer to Pharaoh, you know, where God's gonna raise him up after a while.

But he just stayed so focused on the Lord, and God turned him into -- instead of maybe a cocky kid that he started out to be, even though he showed those signs of leadership at the very, very beginning of his story, God used it to shape him, to strengthen him, to mold him into this rock of a man. And we do see that he wept. You know, it talks about how he just wept to the point that all of Pharaoh's household heard, you know. And when he finally he sees his brothers and then after a while, you know, ends up revealing himself to him.

So he wasn't just a wall, you know, he wasn't unfeeling. He could feel it all. But at the same time, he was so strong because God knew what it would take to make him into a man that needed to be a ruler of a world at the time. And so God's got a reason for what he's allowing all of us to go through, and he's got a greater purpose, and so we just have to trust him and know that he will pull us through, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: And, Jennifer, if I can just add --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: -- the importance of your faith being rooted and grounded in God's Word. Because you can't really have faith if you don't have the Word, something that you can cling to. And when Joseph was a teenager, God gave him two dreams. And in that day and time they didn't have Scripture or, you know, the law. God spoke to him through dreams and visions. And so it was really God's Word to Joseph. And both dreams said the same thing, that God would make Joseph into a leader, and one day even a leader over his family. And I think everywhere he went, he clung to that promise.

So when he was in Potiphar's house, he immediately set out to be a leader in Potiphar's house. You can just see it. And then God gave him favor and Potiphar put him in charge of everything in his home except for his wife. And then when he was thrown into prison, once again you see him clinging to that promise. And the Bible doesn't say it, but you can see by Joseph's actions, because the warden gives everything in the prison over to Joseph so that Joseph is running the prison.

And at each stage, I feel like he's just remembering that promise. In fact, it says when his brothers finally come and bow down before him, it says he remembered the promise. He remembered the dreams. I don't think it meant that he'd forgotten them and all of a sudden they just came to mind. I think it means that he was seeing the fulfillment of those dreams in front of his eyes, that his brothers were bowing down before him because he's now second in command basically of the whole world. Pharaoh was -- you know, the Egyptian Empire was the greatest, and he was second in command under Pharaoh.

So it's important for us, when we're going through things, to have a promise, to have God's Word that we put our faith -- just the roots of our faith down into that Word. I had it after my husband went to heaven that -- from Philippians 1 when it says that, "For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." But then the next verse says that, "If I go on living, then it's because God has a purpose for me." And I knew my work was not done. My husband had finished his work, but I still had more work to do. So the Lord has more fruitful labor for me now.

So those kinds of promises, when God speaks to you through his Word, you just drive the stake of your faith down into it. God doesn't mock his children. He keeps his word. He's a gentleman. You can take him at his word. And that's what Joseph experienced. It was a long time coming, maybe -- I don't know, Rachel, maybe 25, 30 years before he saw his family again before they were reconciled and he saw them bow down before him. But I think all in his life, throughout his life you see him as though he's claiming that promise because he's a leader wherever he goes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's good. Because the Lord gave him that sense of identity through his Word, and he does the same for us. And so we act accordingly and we grow in those situations. That's really good, y'all.

And I want to talk about something that you just kind of touched on a little bit, you know, how you were saying that the Lord hasn't called you home yet, so there's still purpose. Well, I want to talk about legacy. Because one of the themes in your book you deal with, like, Joseph's legacy to his family and our legacy to future generations. So, Anne, I want to know how we can develop this faithful legacy.

Anne Graham Lotz: I think you have to be a person of faith first. You can't develop a legacy if you're not right with God yourself. So the important thing is to have that personal intimate relationship with the Lord that you develop every day through prayer, Bible reading, Bible study, obedience, where you live it out on the anvil of your experience. You have fellowship with other believers and you're growing in your faith. And it's authentic.

So I can remember growing up, you know, I caught my mother on her knees at night in prayer. She would just be beside her bed on her knees for hours. And then in the morning I would go down early and she'd be at her desk studying the Bible and reading it, and I saw it lived out in her life. And so it's not a legacy, it's not something you -- in a sense you try to build, although you want to be very intentional with your children and your grandchildren to teach them God's Word.

And I know with my children, my one priority with my children, I wanted them, one, to be saved, and that I wanted them to know how to pray and get answers to prayer, I wanted them to know how to read their Bibles and hear the Spirit's whisper through the pages, I wanted them to know how to share the Gospel and lead people to Jesus. And God has answered that prayer for all three of my children.

And so the legacy is something that you -- it's who you are. It's authentic. It's an example that you set within the home behind closed doors as well as in public. But then you're intentional by the way you train and raise your children and your grandchildren to serve and love the Lord. But when you're teaching them, then they're going to watch you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: They're wanting to see if what you're teaching them is something that you're living out. If you're not, then you have the opposite effect on them and they decide, well, if you don't really think it's worth living, you know, then why do they think it's worth living? So you have to be authentic. Kids, grandkids, other people, they can spot a phony.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Anne Graham Lotz: And so you've just got to be authentic in your faith and in your relationship with the Lord and in your daily walk. And it doesn't mean that you don't make mistakes, it doesn't mean that you don't fail. Your kids will see that. But then they see the way you handle that, and that's a teaching moment also. The way you confess your failure, you confess you're a sinner, you get right with God.

So it's a journey. And kids will pick up on that, that it's a journey. None of us are perfect. But they see the priorities of our life, they see our relationship with the Lord.

And for myself, it was my mother's relationship with Jesus that was so contagious, I wanted it for myself. And she had great impact on me because of her -- she was fun, she was very spicy, she had a -- almost a wicked sense of humor, but deeply spiritual. And she was -- if I can put it this way, she was in love with Jesus, and that's what I wanted.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, you know, I remember that old saying that -- oh, so much for children is caught, not just taught. So there has to be consistency. And I love that.

And so speaking of legacy, Rachel-Ruth, you've been writing this book, and several books with your mom now, so that means you're not just, like, teaching about legacy, but you're embodying it. Like, you're the example of it. So I'm curious how this process of working with your mom on books, how has it impacted you and your sense of the legacy you've received and that you can therefore give?

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I think I've thought a lot about it because -- I actually love the scene in Genesis 48 when Joseph finds out Jacob is dying and he grabs his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, and he stops everything he's doing and he goes out to see Jacob in Goshen and he sits down. And Jacob, the way that he's so loving to Ephraim and Manasseh, you know, he's like, Come here. And they sit on his lap, he kisses them. You know, he's just loving on them and he's not putting them down. I mean, they saw, like, what Mom was talking about. They saw how Jacob loved them, and felt his warmth and his love, and it was very impactful.

And then Jacob gives them -- you know, he adopts them. So he gives them -- he was like, I can't give you the riches of Egypt, you know, like they already had, I mean, being so big time, their family was so big time. And said, I can give you what is eternal, and adopts him.

And so it has been impactful for me because I desperately want my girls to always continue walking with Jesus. I want them to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. And it is a hard, hard world we live in for this young generation. And there are many coming to Christ, which is so thrilling to see on these college campuses. But the temptations, the evil, all this stuff I think -- the enemy, the demons are just -- been unleashed and they're attacking these young people. And so if there is ever a time to set the example, it's now, to be a light to this young generation.

And I -- you know, I could have watched my grandparents, both sets of my grandparents, watch my parents and just been like, ah, I'm gonna do my own thing. But Jesus, because he loves each of us, like, he pursued me. And I love the Lord myself, you know. I mean, I'm so thankful I had the example of my grandparents and my parents. But like my dad says, you can be born in a garage, but it doesn't make you a car, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: And so I love Jesus because I have developed this relationship with him. God met me, you know, and came into my life. And so like Mom said, I've been living it in front of my girls. They see me writing the books or preparing to teach Bible study or going and speaking. And I always want them to see that I'm not a different person at home than I am in front of other people, that I'm actually -- I love the Lord with my whole heart.

And I know that they see that in -- to see them walking with the Lord and leading people to Christ and -- I mean, it's just been awesome. And my oldest even went through a very difficult couple of years, and I was on my knees all the time, but she's quickly come back to the Lord and on fire.

And so God has everybody on a different journey, but we have to just stay focused on our love for Jesus and then it just oozes out of us, you know? And then people see our kids, others around us see the difference. But it is -- definitely needs to be something on parents' hearts, on grandparents' hearts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I feel like there's parents out there that they're more concerned about going out with the girls, you know, and having a night out instead of thinking you've got little disciples in your house. Like, spend every minute. They grow up so fast, you know. Just invest in them, love on them, teach them. Let them act out the Bible stories, you know. And every time you see an ambulance, say, "Let's stop and pray," you know, "we don't know who's in there."

So that prayer becomes, like, almost non-stop, they're always thinking -- my girls are always stopping and praying over something. And so the point is you have to love the Lord and be on fire for the Lord, and then it just is natural. Your kids see it and then they want that same thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right, they'll catch on fire also. That's so good. Wow.

Okay, ladies, this is going to be our last question. And so I'm going to ask it and then -- maybe, Rachel-Ruth, if you'll answer first, and then, Anne, you can land the plane for us, Sister. Okay? But here's our last question. We've got some people who've been listening and they are really relating to the hard parts of Joseph's story. Okay? And they feel wounded by a myriad of things. What is that one encouragement that you can leave them with to help them stay engaged, to just stick with it, to stay engaged with God?

Rachel-Ruth Lotz Wright: I love this question, because there were so many moments when I was in so much pain in the middle of the night, just crying and scared out of my mind just thinking, am I having another one? And there's been other points in my life where I've been just deeply, horrifically hurt by some people and having to deal with all that.

And I'm here to tell you what I have just learned and know to the deepest part of my heart is that Jesus loves us. He adores you. He is for you. He is cheering you on. He is surrounding you with his love. The Bible says he sings over you.

And when you are going through something hard, his eyes are not off of you. The Bible says he watches you day and night. He never sleeps, never slumbers. He is watching you and he will pull you out at just the right moment and -- or help you. He'll send help, he'll send people to pray over you, he'll give you Scripture to encourage you.

But don't ever forget in the darkest moments how much Jesus loves you. It does not mean he doesn't love you, it doesn't mean he's got his eyes off of you. He's more -- I hear people say, "Oh, he's got bigger things to be concerned with than what's going on in my life," and that is a lie from the pit of hell. Because Jesus is bigger than anything we can ever imagine. He can be with each of us individually, fully, and watches over us and loves us and is for us.

And so just be encouraged that you are not going through this because he is wanting to get back at you. He's not that kind of a God. He loves you and will see you through and make you greater through this. So like we've said, don't turn to bitterness, anger. Don't turn on God; run to Him. And I promise you, he's got his arms open wide to embrace you, love you, and heal you and pull you through this.

Anne Graham Lotz: And, Jennifer, I don't think I could say it any better than that. In fact, when you asked the question, that was exactly what I was thinking, is that God loves you. And, in fact, in my devotions this morning -- I read this little Daily Light every morning. I read morning and evening in the morning. But it just says, "How precious are your thoughts to me, O God. How great is the sum of them. If I should count them, there'd be more number than the sand. When I wake, I'm still with you."

And then it goes on down and it quotes from Song of Solomon. "But like an apple tree among the trees of the woods, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down in the shade with great delightness. Fruit was sweet to my taste. He brought me to the banqueting house and his banner over me was love."

And it's just the picture of the bridegroom taking the bride in. And he puts a banner over so everybody knows that she belongs to him and that he's in love with her.

And God loves you. He loves you so much, he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross to take away your sin. Jesus loves you so much that when the Father sent him, he came. If you'd been the only person alive on Planet Earth, Jesus would have come to die for you. And he rose up from the dead to give you eternal life, which is not just heaven when you die, but it's that personal, permanent love relationship with God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit right now.

And then Jesus went back to heaven and God sent down the Holy Spirit to come and live inside of you. The Holy Spirit is like your engagement ring, and you receive the Holy Spirit. That's God's seal on your life that the best is yet to come. That when this life is over, he's going to take you to a place he's prepared for you, and that you're an authentic, validated child of God.

So life is hard. It throws us difficult curveballs. We can be wounded, we can cry and suffer, experience betrayal, slander, persecution, ostracism, marginalization, whatever you want to say, you know. It's just disease and death and divorce. But through it all, God will use every single thing, as Rachel has pointed out, to develop you into the person that God wants you to be, until others can see Jesus reflected in you.

And that's one thing we haven't talked about, Jennifer, is in the book, at the end of every chapter we've written a little section, "Jesus in the Shadows." And we see Jesus in the shadows of Joseph's life. He's a beautiful Old Testament picture of Jesus. And you see him loved by the father, and Jesus was loved by his Father. Sent on a mission by his father, and Jesus was sent on a mission by his Father. He came to his brothers, his brothers betrayed him and sold him into slavery.

And Jesus came to his own and his own received him not. And he was not -- Joseph was persecuted. Jesus wasn't just persecuted, he was crucified. And then when God raised Joseph up and put him second in command of Egypt, God raised up Jesus from the dead, put him at his right hand, put all authority in the whole universe under his feet.

And so the similarities are incredible, and I think Joseph is a picture of who Jesus is and the way he is to us. He's forgiven us. He gives us heaven and all spiritual blessings in heavenly places even right now. So there is a beautiful -- the core of my life, the center point, the hub of the wheel of my life is that relationship with Jesus. I spend time with him every morning talking to him in prayer, reading God's Word just to receive what he has to say to me, then living it out during the day and sharing it with others.

So that's what keeps the fire going in my heart, and I think that's the only thing that will keep fire going in the heart. When we're suffering, when we're wounded, when we have hard things, when the whole world is in chaos, we don't want to lose our fire or our focus. We want to be faithful to what God's called us to be, and that requires that time spent developing that personal relationship with him. It's everything.

KC Wright: Preach it, Anne!

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach it!

KC Wright: Woo! Woman of God's on fire. Keep the fire going by staying in the Word and staying close to God. Stay faithful, friends. The best is yet to come. God will use all things to develop you into the person he wants you to be so others see Jesus reflected in you.

Okay, I may have repeated myselves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or everything she said.

KC Wright: Right, right, right. But it was so worth hearing again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it was.

KC Wright: This was really special to hear Anne and Rachel-Ruth together. What a special, special podcast. And there was so much in this conversation you need to hear again. I know I do. So go to the Show Notes to get the book. Plus, you can read the full transcript right there. It's at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/408.

And I haven't asked in a while, so let me ask now. Please, pretty please, if you could take some time today -- won't take but a second -- leave us a review. A kind one, please.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: That'd be nice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Actually, why don't you in your review interpret KC's dream. Okay, go ahead.

KC Wright: A 5-star one, of course. A big ol' review there. Your words make a big difference, so thanks for being a part of the family by sharing your heart on whatever platform you listen to.

All right, this one is a wrap. So today, trust God in the details. Because there's a Scripture in Psalms that says he delights in every detail of our lives. You can, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: So maybe it was a God dream.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it wasn't.

KC Wright: Okay. No, it wasn't.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it was just your psychological -- you're trying to work out your psychological issues. Boy, it must have been a long dream because you got a lot of them.

KC Wright: But you're so smart how you wrapped your mind around that. I'm gonna start telling you more of my dreams.

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't put too much weight in that. I don't know how accurate it was.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Let Go of What’s Keeping Me From Soul Revival? With Lisa Whittle

Lisa Whittle: And I think that is part of what the Lord began to do in me, was say what are the things that you hold precious, that are perhaps consuming you that you don't even recognize, that are good parts of you, that are perhaps beneficial to you and others, but are also costing you some vibrancy with me because maybe they take up time, maybe they take up mental space, maybe they are requiring more of you that you are not even noticing.

But in you allowing me some more space here, I'm going to begin to give you insight because your brain will be more clear, your heart will be more clear.

Jennifer Rothschild: Our souls long for less of us and more of God, for less of this broken world and more of Jesus' abundant life. Well, put simply, for revival.

So on today's podcast, author and podcaster Lisa Whittle is going to show you the freedom of surrendering to God, releasing your need for comfort, control, popularity, even blessings. She's going to show us how offering everything to God is going to bring the renewed spiritual vitality that we all crave.

So get ready to get revived, because the podcast is ready to start.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. KC Wright there, my Seeing Eye Guy. Two friends, one topic, zero stress here in the podcast closet. We're so glad you're back with us. I hope you had a good week. I've had a good week.

But I'm a little concerned about my friend over here smushed in the closet. You seem a little discombobulated.

KC Wright: Yeah. You know --

Jennifer Rothschild: What's up?

KC Wright: -- what I love about the podcast is the zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But truth be told --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

KC Wright: -- I'm carrying some stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can tell, dude.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: What's up?

KC Wright: So give me some advice, JR.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I don't know if I have it.

KC Wright: You've one of the smartest people I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I don't know.

KC Wright: You're never gonna believe this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. What?

KC Wright: But, you know, nature is nature-ing here in the Ozarks where we live, where we reside.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, because everything is happy and blossoming.

KC Wright: Right. Spring has sprung and summer's in full force.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: However, we've got some issues at the Wright Homestead. I've got bunnies, cute little bunnies everywhere in my backyard. But you're never going to believe this. There are two, I call them demonic squirrels, in a tree in front of my home that are literally eating my Jeep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Eating your --

KC Wright: Literally eating my car.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

KC Wright: So I love my Jeep.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know you do.

KC Wright: And it's got these latches on the front to hold the hood down?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: You can see their teeth marks on both of the latches on either side. They're gnawing my latches. They're gnawing the thing on the back --

Jennifer Rothschild: 'Cause they're plastic, right?

KC Wright: They're plastic. They're after some kind of seed oil or something in it. I posted this on my Facebook and everyone had a comment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Anyway, so --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, my understanding is the little demonic squirrels are teething.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: They're trying to sharpen their teeth.

KC Wright: So I had to eliminate my garage gym. Now I'm fat over these squirrels again. Okay? I had to eliminate my garage gym so I can pull my gym now -- my garage into my garage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Your Jeep is now in the garage?

KC Wright: I'm pulling my Jeep now into the garage for the first time ever to protect it from the demon squirrels. So --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright

Even this morning I come home and I've got a little -- I got a little junk car also in my driveway in case I need it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

KC Wright: Those little jokers were coming out from underneath that car.

Jennifer Rothschild: What is plastic under there that they're eating?

KC Wright: I don't know. It's like they're building an army to attack me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I have a solution.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you ever see The Christmas Story? Do you remember what the little boy wanted so badly? It was a Red Ryder --

Jennifer and KC: BB gun.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay all you animal lovers out there --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I'm just saying, sometimes there is a time and a place for a Red Ryder BB gun.

KC Wright: I come from a long line of hillbillies on my dad's side, and I remember the squirrel chili and the squirrel stew.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gross.

KC Wright: No, I've never had squirrel. But a lot of people here do eat squirrel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah. Well, you could be helping people, then, by taking care of those squirrels so you could feed a family.

KC Wright: Option 1, I get on Amazon and I buy all these things people told me to do, like peppermint, peppermint paddles.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, that's what we supposedly used, and it doesn't help.

KC Wright: It doesn't help. I'm not into wasting money.

Option 2, we saw that tree down.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

KC Wright: Yeah, we can saw it down. We can cut that tree down, because their nests are up there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: But this is the same squirrel that I found last Christmas removing my Christmas balls. And he ran off with it like a little football.

Or option 3, I'm buying a BB gun on Amazon.

Jennifer Rothschild: Red Ryder. Red Ryder BB gun.

KC Wright: They're only $35, and that's an investment I can believe in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's hilarious. Though part of me would just like to keep the demonic squirrels in your front and back yard just because it gives me something to laugh at.

KC Wright: And do you know what? This is how much I love animals. I follow this little Instagram reel where they have a camera inside a squirrel house, and one of my favorite little videos -- you may have seen this if you're listening -- is lightning strikes and the little squirrel grabs his heart --

Jennifer Rothschild: No!

KC Wright: -- because he's scared of the storm.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. You can't kill the squirrel with the BB gun.

KC Wright: Anyway, I was just thinking of having a buddy of mine build a little squirrel house in my backyard. Those days are gone forever.

Jennifer Rothschild: No way. Huh-uh.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: They do not belong.

KC Wright: They're just -- they're eating the Jeep.

Jennifer Rothschild: They need to behave. They need to behave. Oh, man.

Okay. Well, now I understand why you're stressed.

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, deep breaths.

KC Wright: Okay. All right, we're back.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, we're back.

KC Wright: All right.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Now, there is just no way to transition. All I know is we probably really need -- you especially need a soul revival right now, my bro bro.

KC Wright: There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So let's introduce Lisa.

KC Wright: Lisa Whittle is the author of several books and Bible studies, including "Your God Knows," "Body and Soul," "The Hard Good," and "Jesus Over Everything." She's the founder of Ministry Strong and co-founder of Called Creatives, as well as the host of the Jesus Over Everything Podcast. Lisa and her family live in beautiful North Carolina.

Here are Lisa and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Where there are plenty of squirrels.

All right, Lisa. We're friends. I'm happy to have you back. I love talking to you. I love what the Lord does in you, your writing. And we're going to talk about a Bible study that's based on a book. So let me just start with this.

The Bible study, I believe, is called "Come Back to God," and it's letting go of what's keeping you from soul revival. So tell us about this. Like, what Bible study -- I mean, what book is this Bible study based on? And I want you to talk about soul revival, because I want to know what that phrase means to you and how it applies to each of us.

Lisa Whittle: Well, I love talking to you, first of all. This feels like such a hug for me today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yay.

Lisa Whittle: It does. Yeah, it's -- this study means a lot to me. It's a long time coming in so many ways. Because I wrote a book called "I Want God," goodness, 2012, 2011. Centuries ago it feels like.

But, yeah, I was at a point in my life where I felt like life was consuming, and I needed God to consume me more than my life was consuming me. And I didn't even know what that meant really, I just knew that it felt like things were piling on. And more than anything, I felt spiritually dry.

And, you know, it didn't make a lot of sense. I didn't really know what that meant. I was in a place where I was writing books and traveling and speaking and doing all those things that felt like service to God, but I felt so distant from God.

And I remember being in my office in my home and putting my face in the carpet fibers of my floor and saying, "God, I will not hold back any part of me." Because historically it was like there was that one piece that I just didn't want to let go, whatever it was. Like, "You can have all of it but that."

And I just felt in a place of desperation, Jenn. I was like, "No, you can have everything, and I will not -- you can mess with me in every area." I'm desperate. I just felt that sort of soul desperation.

And I remember I'd got my kids off to school. I was in a Snuggie. I remember I was wearing my daughter's Snuggie. I don't know if you remember the Snuggies at the time?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I remember Snuggies, yes.

Lisa Whittle: Yeah. And I looked a mess. And I just was like, "God, I just need you to breathe life into me." And God spoke over me the word "revival." And, you know, I grew up -- we had revivals at my church, and I just thought this is so odd. I was hoping for a psalm. I was, you know, hoping for some kind of -- you know, just a song. I don't know what I was hoping for.

But revival felt like I -- where was I gonna go? Was there a church that was having one? I don't know.

But I went and did what any good Christian would do, I went to the computer and I Googled the word "revival." And "revivals" came up, but the first one that came up was in the early 1900s, the Welsh Revival. And I began to just soak in what I was reading of, like, how God radically moved in the early 1900s in Wales.

And I was -- I'd never read about it before, and it just began to, like, rattle something within me, like, this is the same God who did this. And I am this mom who is just regular, just needing God to breathe inside of me. And this is the same God, and I know he can do this. And he did things in the Old Testament and, "God, can you do this inside of me if I just give you every single part of me?"

And it led me to write this book, "I Want God." And honestly, at that moment I wanted to want him. I can't say I wanted him with everything within me, but I wanted to. And I just said, "God, I want to want you."

And from that place -- I wrote a lot of words in this book, "I Want God," and I realized there were a lot of things that were standing in the way of that. And so "Come Back to God," this Bible study, is sort of like helping people dive into the Bible and really look at Scripture and what it looks like to sort of drift spiritually and come back to him.

And it's based a lot in Revelation 2 and the Church of Ephesus, that letter. And so that's kind of where it comes from. And I've wanted to write this Bible study for a long time, but it's just been years and years, but I believe this is the time that the Lord ordained it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I do too, because I think what you described is how a lot of us feel. Sometimes there's seasons, sometimes there's days. But it sounds like you were in a season back then when you almost -- you know, the dryness, the spiritual stuckness, it wasn't because of a lack of effort, it wasn't because of a lack of wanting to serve God.

But you said something, Lisa, that I want you to unpack a little, because I think someone listening may be where you were. You said something about being consumed and, therefore, being consumed by God and you didn't even know what that meant. Okay. If you can remember that nifty statement you said. I want you to unpack that now in retrospect. How did you then experience that when you came out of that dryness and into a soul revival?

Lisa Whittle: Well, I'll say that it wasn't instant. I think that's sort of the myth -- right? -- that we think that, like, okay, in that moment there's going to be this massive spiritual experience. And I think it's different for everybody. I wouldn't say that there -- there is not a one-size-fits-all experience with the Lord.

I hoped in that moment that some type of shift would happen where I would get up off the carpet fibers of the floor and I would, like, feel completely different. I think I felt lighter immediately because I had confessed sin and I had given everything over to God without holding back. I think certainly that is somewhat universal when we open our whole heart up to God in a moment.

But I think what I felt was the results of obedience, because the Lord began to immediately open up insight and say to me these are -- this is the way, walk in it. And so I began to really have next steps.

And so I think that's what a lot of us are looking for -- right? -- is some next steps. And so one of the things that the Lord showed me in that moment was what he wanted me to stop doing. And one of those things was -- at the time I was very active as a blogger, and it was part of a process of being a public person.

And I had just released actually a book, ironically, on a different subject, and part of that was like a promotional process that I was supposed to do to let people know about the book, and blogging was a part of that. And he basically said, "I want you to stop blogging and stop writing," which was an outlet that I enjoyed doing and part of my livelihood. "I want you to stop doing that for 30 days and I want you to go dark with me and see what else I can speak to you about."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Okay. Ooh.

Lisa Whittle: And so it -- so it was going to cost me something.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Right.

Lisa Whittle: And I think that is part of what the Lord began to do in me, was say, what are the things that you hold precious, that are perhaps consuming you that you don't even recognize? That are good parts of you, that are perhaps beneficial to you and others, but are also costing you some vibrancy with me because maybe they take up time, maybe they take up mental space. Maybe they are requiring more of you that you are not even noticing. But in that -- in you allowing me some more space here, I'm going to begin to give you insight because your brain will be more clear, your heart will be more clear.

And so I went 30 days dark. It didn't make sense to me or anyone else. It was actually counter to what was maybe a good thing to do in the sense of my business, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Lisa Whittle: But it was good for my soul. And the Lord began to show me more things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh. Okay.

Lisa Whittle: I think a lot of times, Jennifer, we think, I want to hear from God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Lisa Whittle: I'm desperate to hear next steps, I'm desperate to hear direction, but then we don't do the things that would actually make that possible. We're still looking at our phone, we're still scrolling manically or -- you know, our life looks very the same --

Jennifer Rothschild: This is super good.

Lisa Whittle: -- and so we don't really create that -- yeah, we don't create that pathway.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, what I'm hearing too is, oh, just the discomfort that may come with it. And I think we think, okay, yes, Lord, I will do what you want me to do as long as it feels right.

And so you just articulated one of the themes that you deal with in your study well, which is this theme of letting go of things that keep us from God, even good things like blogging. Doing the right thing for your ministry, for your business, that's a good thing.

So what I want to know is -- you said it was almost counterintuitive that you did that. How does someone listening, who's wanting to really hear from the Lord, and they've been on the carpet and they are asking the Lord, "I need a soul revival," how do they know that it's not just their imagination and they're really hearing from God?

Lisa Whittle: Yeah. I think that's a profound question. I'll say this. This is simple, and then I'll give a little practical here. You know, for me, a lot of things that cost me when I feel compelled to give something up or to put something aside, if it's going to cost me, I generally know that's not my idea --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lisa Whittle: -- because I'm not going to want to do it, Jen. Like, I -- there's no way in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Lisa Whittle: Also if it's something over time. I mean, I talk about a shopping fast that the Lord had me do for a year in the book "Jesus Over Everything." I love to shop, so that's not going to be a Lisa Whittle idea, clearly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Lisa Whittle: Because I can justify that all day long. I'm like, I don't buy expensive things. I actually buy things on a bargain. I love doing that. It's actually a little bit of a game for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's stewardship. Come on.

Lisa Whittle: Yeah, right. Is that going to be something I'm going to want to do? No way. And also, shopping is not wrong. That's not biblically wrong. So if I -- if something like that comes to my spirit -- and especially over time, which it had, like, nagging over and over -- I know that's something the Spirit's putting on my mind.

Okay. Now let me give you a little bit of practical here, because people -- this is really helpful for me. This was something the Lord put over time for me to begin to kind of vet myself. If you're saying, Hey, I'm stuck, I can't make traction, maybe this is the Lord also showing me something that could be an idol even in my life. How do I spot it?

One, if you grieve over the thought of losing it. There's a measure of grief about putting something aside. That's kind of a sign. Two, if you have to keep secrets in order to keep it hidden or to keep it sort of for yourself, that can be a sign as well.

One of the things that I realized for myself with my shopping was that I began to hide purchases from my husband. Not -- I don't -- I don't think I would have lied to him at the time. If he had asked me about something, I would not have overtly lied to him. But I also, like, quickly brought them into the house.

Jennifer Rothschild: You didn't mention it. Yeah.

Lisa Whittle: Right, didn't mention it. Put them quickly into the closet where we didn't have to have a discussion about it, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Gotcha.

Lisa Whittle: Harmless. But over time, is it harmless, you know?

Three, if you make excuses for why it's okay to have it. If you're constantly making excuses for your thing, then maybe it's something that's getting in the way.

Like, here's the point. I want to live right. I want to live holy. I want to live pure before God. And I love the feeling of freedom in my bones. I don't want anything in the way. Honestly, Jennifer, I don't. Because I want my prayer life to be vibrant, I want my soul to sing. I want all of that for my life. It feels different. I breathe air different. And I've lived both ways.

And that's really what coming back to God is all about. I think a lot of us, you know, even when we might see the title of that study, we're like, well, I'm not away from God.

Jennifer Rothschild: I was going to ask you that. Yeah. That's good. I'm glad you're addressing this. Yeah.

Lisa Whittle: Yeah. Because we are, a lot of us, good Christians and we do check boxes, there's this thought in our brain of, like, I am not overtly rebellious.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Lisa Whittle: I am not away from God. But there is this, like, slight drift, and that is the thing that I think we need to begin to recognize. That's why I address things like comfort and control, and even things like blessing, which in and of themselves are, like, good and right things. The Bible addresses these things.

But when we begin to want these things over just the relationship with God himself, they're distractions and they get in our way. And so that's the kind of thing that I help us pull apart in the study, which I hope to be really helpful.

Jennifer Rothschild: It sounds practical too. And it reminds me so much of your -- just the whole premise of your podcast. Which, by the way, we already mentioned, and I'll make sure we link you to it, our friends, Jesus Over Everything. JOE. It's easy to remember J-O-E.

Lisa Whittle: JOE. JOE.

Jennifer Rothschild: JOE

Lisa Whittle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Lisa, I appreciate your depth and your willingness. I wasn't going to ask you this, but I just want to address it real quickly. You've written another study -- sorry to shift gears on you, sister -- "Body and Soul."

Lisa Whittle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I know you've done that with Lifeway Press. I'm curious how this whole almost -- your whole life being a sacrament to God, how that's been expressed in this "Body and Soul" Bible study. Because some of the things you mentioned that could be part of how we're tempted by idols are very physical things: food, comfort, whatever.

Give us just an idea of this body and soul concept that you've written about and how it applies to our whole lives being a sacrament to God, being 100% committed.

Lisa Whittle: Oh, my gosh. I love that you asked this. "Body and Soul" has been a transformative work for me. There's so much I didn't know about the body and living our whole embodied lives. I mean, that for me changed my entire life. Because I had parsed out my life so much and really had not understood what it meant to live body, mind, and spirit.

And even more than that, had not understood in the least what his life and our life and our bodies and living our embodied life had to do with him coming in human form in the incarnate Christ. And "Body and Soul" is whole body theology, which has been transformative for me, a biblical belief system of God's creation of us in our entire personhood, body and soul.

And the interesting thing about it is I had written, actually, "Come Back to God" before I wrote "Body and Soul." We didn't release it until after "Body and Soul" --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Lisa Whittle: -- but now -- I know. That's a little tidbit here that I don't think I've ever said anywhere.

Jennifer Rothschild: Love it.

Lisa Whittle: But what crystallized for me so much when I wrote "Body and Soul" is how much I didn't understand about giving our whole selves over to God and living it as that living sacrifice. But when we understand and have that foundation that most of us, quite honestly, are missing, this framework for living, how that becomes such a natural part of our life. It has changed everything for me, Jennifer, having this foundation of embodied living whole body theology.

Otherwise, what we do is we walk around as parts of ourselves. We say, well, this is my eating life, or this is my sex life, or this is my rest life, or this is my work life, and we treat ourselves like a workhorse. Or we say, okay, sleep is rest. And in reality, we can be a completely restless person, but we think, well, as long as I get eight hours of sleep at night, and I'll track that with my watch, and I'm all good.

And in reality, God is saying to us, no, you don't understand. From Genesis to Revelation, I have given you this entire framework for how I have made you body, mind, and spirit. And I live inside of you as a believer, and I am helping you live your entire life, and I have communion with you. So when I came in human form, not only to relate to you, but then died -- and the crucifixion is all a part of this. Because, yes, we look at the crucifixion -- I don't mean to get too nerdy in the theology of this --

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I love it.

Lisa Whittle: -- which is what "Body and Soul" is all about -- we think, okay, well, that's a one and done. He died so that we might have eternal and abundant life. And, yes, that is the primary reason for that gift. But also it is that we might have reprieve and rest in our body every day, which means that we find the comfort in him and we find the way that we have ability to live in our life every day, even in our humanity and our struggles and our limitations and our disabilities. And the thing is, we don't even realize this.

And so honestly, it's changed everything. And it does go very hand in hand with living our life deferring to him with our comforts, rather than giving ourself human comforts, which are so temporary and so fleeting, and yet that's what we look to. So it all really plays together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lisa Whittle: But interestingly, I wrote "Come Back" to God first. And I don't know how it would have informed them differently, but I think it just makes it all the richer because writing "Body and Soul" has just radically changed my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's why I asked you about it, because, honestly, I think they play so nice together. To me, you cannot have one without the other --

Lisa Whittle: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- this whole body theology without this soul revival, this recognition that our whole lives are a sacrament, a living sacrifice to him.

Okay, Lisa, this is really good. And by the way, friends, I'll also link to Lisa's Bible study, a video-based Bible study too. Both of these are. But that one we just talked about is called "Body and Soul."

Okay. But we're going to get to the last question. Lisa, so someone who's been -- they're tracking with this whole conversation. They've been walking with God for years. But you know what? Honestly, they feel a little bored. Like, been there, done that. It's the peril of the familiar. But they're kind of bored with the whole thing. What encouragement can you leave her with so that she can experience this revival in her soul?

Lisa Whittle: Listen, I think we've all been there. And I love that God is not offended by our humanity, right? I mean, he's tender to that.

I think something that I realized actually in writing "Body and Soul" -- not to go over there, but it does apply here -- is that we are so often wanting to be free from the human experience of things we actually go through in our life, and we think freedom is being free from some of those natural things that we go through. That doesn't mean that we can't have victory in our relationship with Christ.

And I think that's the important thing. Because what Satan wants us to do is go into the shame mode and go into the guilt mode, which then further separates us from Christ, saying, Well, listen, you're bored, so just stay out of your Bible. Or, You're bored? Do not approach the Lord. He is so mad at you because you are bored with your relationship with the Lord? How dare you do that? Like, that offends God.

And in reality, God loves you. He loves you. And he's wanting you to come to him and say, "I'm stale. I'm stale in my relationship with you. And I love you and I want to get back there."

And I love Hebrews 2, because Hebrews 2 is about the drift. And there's the verse that -- Hebrews 2:1 that says we must listen carefully to the truth we have heard so we may not drift away from it. And so recalling what God has done for us, how he's loved us, how he's been tender with us, I find it does much more good than just feeling ashamed or feeling overwhelmed. But just saying, okay, what were the times that I felt so loved by God?

I mean -- I'm going to tell you this. I have a bright purple bush that is right outside my front window. My dad died in 2017. He was a complicated man, we had a complicated relationship, but purple was his favorite color. I love flowers and I can't plant a thing. But somebody that lived here before me had a green thumb and they planted a purple azalea bush in front of my window, Jennifer. And when I look outside that window, I feel so loved by God.

And sometimes I just need to go, God, you love me. And right now I'm spiritually dry, but I know you love me. And I had a heritage of faith that I grew up with, and my life has been complicated, and so is sometimes my relationship with the church, but I love you and I want to get back in the Word. And I just open my Bible and that's where we start.

And so my encouragement to someone would be don't get overwhelmed by all the to-dos and the ways that you have failed in the last two weeks to not read your Bible. Just remember the ways that you've been deeply loved by God. Breathe in some air, get off your phone -- it's probably not doing you any good --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lisa Whittle: -- and open your Bible and say, "God, I love you. Remind me how you love me, and let's start there."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, our friends, God is tender to our humanity. Lisa's right, Satan wants us to go into shame mode. Oh, but God loves you and he knows what it is to be you, so come to him. Tell him when you feel stale. Tell him the truth.

KC Wright: Yes. Recall the times you felt loved. Open your Bible. Start there. Don't get overwhelmed with all the to-dos, just remember the ways you've been loved. I encourage people to do this. Put your hand on your heart once a day and just say out loud, "God loves me."

Oh, man, this was so good today.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was.

KC Wright: If you want to review it, you can listen again, or, of course, read the transcript at 413podcast.com/407. And, of course, you can get her book there as well.

Okay, our wonderful peeps. We love you.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do.

KC Wright: We mean it.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do.

KC Wright: And until next week -- I know, I don't want to go either -- just trust God. He is better than anything. He meets all of our needs according to his riches and glory by Christ Jesus. He's so good. He's a good, good God, and you can experience soul revival right now because you can truly do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, now let's go buy a BB gun.