Jennifer Rothschild Show: Why the Trinity Matters to Your Relationships with Liz Daye

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Liz Daye: I wanted to make sure that I could ground myself in something that was true about God. So when I'm in the hospital and I'm either with a patient or I'm with one of my children or whatever the case is, I'm asking, what is God like here? Because I need to ask that so that I can know what's true.

And so that in that moment, I can have comfort that is rooted in truth, that is rooted in something real. And that's what it looks like to promote that kind of discipleship, because that shouldn't be an individual thing, right?

We should be doing that in community with each other. When we're going through hard stuff, we need to remind one another the truth about the triune God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome to the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow. I'm so glad you are here today because we're talking about something so good today.

Now, here's what it is, okay? In a culture shaped by individualism, chaplain and theologian, our guest today, Liz is going to invite us back to the relational heart of God.

Don't we need that? And here's how she's gonna do it. She's gonna unpack the mystery of the Trinity to help us rediscover the beauty of belonging to God's family.

Oh, listen, if you've got some theological questions on the Trinity, I just want you to know we've got some really good answers today. So let's grow. Well, hey friends, I'm glad you are back again for another amazing week here at the Jennifer Rothschild Show.

And some of you have been leaving reviews and man, can I just tell you how much I appreciate that? You guys are just the kindest, most wonderful people.

So thank you for doing that. We're talking today with Liz Day, first time I ever talked to her. And I want to tell you something interesting that you're going to hear.

Liz is autistic and she kind of explains that, and I'm just going to I just wanna give you that heads up because it was super helpful to me. And I thought it was really special just to break down some of the mystique. So if that's a thing for you, you're gonna appreciate that today.

And you know, I realized too, the last couple of weeks we've touched on the importance of relationships. So I'm gonna tell you that something happened to me because of relationship.

All right, ready? Mushroom coffee.

Yes. I have a couple of friends who are like, oh my gosh, you will love mushroom coffee.

And it's so good for your brain. Now you may already know I am a coffee girl. In fact, I have a steaming cup of Verona that I made with my espresso machine.

So even though it's coffee, it's got like this foamy crema on the top. Mm. My, my whole podcast studio smells like it.

It makes me very happy. So I thought, my friends know how much I love coffee. So if they think I'm gonna love this mushroom coffee, of course I'm gonna love it.

And you may love mushroom coffee. Like it is the thing. It's made with all these mushrooms.

I opened the bag. It smelled like coffee. I thought, this is fantastic. And then I brewed it. Okay, can I just say, friends don't let friends drink mushroom coffee.

I know, I know, you may be out there going, but you haven't tried such and such. And you're right, I probably haven't. It might just be the brand that I tried, which I will not name.

But I just realized I've got 2 bags of mushroom coffee here and my brain needs the mushrooms. So here's what I'm doing. I'm trying to put a little scoop of mushroom coffee in my good coffee so that it doesn't ruin my good coffee, but that my brain gets a little mushrooms.

Okay. That's what I'm doing. So as your friend, if you don't love mushroom coffee, that's the advice I'm giving you.

And so far it's working. I can't even taste it in my Verona. It hasn't ruined it.

Okay. You know what that has to do with anything? Nothing. All right. Let's just go to Liz because she's got a lot better going on, but here's the thing.

She's going to tell you something about the Trinity that helps us understand our belonging to God and our relationship with the family that could be just startling for you and so inspiring. I can't wait for you to hear it. So I'm going to introduce you to my new friend, Liz.

She's a hospital chaplain and she's a teacher and she's a theologian. She's an author. And here's what she does, which is interesting.

She integrates academic theology and biblical scholarship with research-based clinical interventions. Okay? She graduated way high from Dallas Theological Seminary with a degree, a master's degree in chaplaincy and ministry care.

And she keeps serving there, right in that seminary in the theological studies department. Okay.

The woman is pretty amazing. She's married, she's got some kids, and she's got great insight. So just settle in, enjoy your coffee as you listen to me and Liz Daye.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Liz, first off, I'm gonna share, uh, with our listeners what I read about you. Okay?

This is part of your official bio. It says Liz Daye is an autistic hospital chaplain, teacher, and theologian with a passion for accessible theology and relationship-based discipleship.

Okay. Now we could talk for 30 minutes just about the attributes that are in that bio.

Okay? But if it's okay with you, I really want to know, are you autistic? And what exactly does that mean?

Liz Daye: Yeah, so I was diagnosed as an adult. And I am excited because I feel like growing up, I struggled to find language to explain what was going on in my brain and in my body.

So I think even just having— knowing that this book in particular, this book that's really about belonging and finding new vocabulary for our faith, that it's coming from this perspective of somebody who's been looking for language for a really long time. And I hope that these different parts of my life and these different experiences that I've had can contribute meaningfully to this work.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I know it has to because it just, it deepens the message. And it also really gives you a platform for credibility. Because I think autism, that's why it was my first question.

It is so misunderstood. And maybe it's because it's so nuanced that it shows up differently with each person.

Liz Daye: Yeah, I think, and everybody has a different relationship with their body. All of us experience the spectrum in very different ways.

We have different support needs. And those are always going to look different. So knowing, first of all, being able to name what you need, and then know what you need and recognize it in that moment, that takes time to kind of figure out.

And there's some trial and error involved, especially if you have limited support or less resources. There's, there's a whole lot there. But yeah, I'm excited to maybe surprise people with maybe a different way of experiencing my body and my brain.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I love that. And you're basing so much of it on something that, that I didn't expect.

Okay, so let me put it this way. So like, when I read your bio, you make theology accessible, which I so highly regard and appreciate. And so I'm going to ask you a question. been about something that is usually not accessible, the Trinity.

Okay, because you base a lot of what you're teaching in this book on the relationship of the Trinity. Okay, so first of all, explain to us what the Trinity is for someone who may not know.

I mean, as much as we humans can. And then tell us what we can learn from the Trinity about relationships.

Liz Daye: Yeah, so I think one of the core Christian convictions that most of us share, you know, we fight about lots of things, but one of the things that we share is that God is one. And God is 3 persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, right?

We have these 2 things in tension. God is one, God is 3. But this really important part of our faith is that God is alive.

And so I think when we're looking for language to talk about the Trinity, usually we get like a triangle-shaped graphic with like the Father on the top, and sometimes you have some like different directions pointing in different ways. But a lot of those graphics and a lot of those things that we, you know, rely on to communicate our faith, a lot of them—

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Liz Daye: are missing the language that God is moving and God is alive and God is at work in the world and in our relationships.

So one of the reasons that I wanted to write about the Trinity and kind of bring some of this really academic, like gross Latin, Greek, you know, these, these terms that are just really inaccessible for most of us, and I wanted to translate them to a way that actually this doctrine is really important to our faith. It is important that we know how to communicate --

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Liz Daye: -- that God is alive. We're resurrection people, and what that looks like in our relationships with one another, what that looks like as the church. So, that's kind of the framing for my approach, and what I hope readers take away as, you know, this scary doctrine maybe becomes a little bit less scary, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, because it shouldn't be. This is the foundation of our faith.

So, let me just ask you something unexpected that I'm going to mispronounce. Okay, Perichoresis?

Liz Daye: Yes. Okay, so that's— yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Talk about that, because I think when you said movement, that helped me. So talk about that, please. Fix my word and then explain it.

Liz Daye: No, your word is perfect. So perichoresis, this is that term where we get the vocabulary for movement. So in, you know, with the early church fathers, they're looking for language to describe God.

We have all these different councils that are, you know, Dudes are writing letters back and forth, trying to find the best ways to articulate. And this was one of those words that came up during that period of time to really give language to the fact that God is moving, God is alive, God is moving around, inseparable, interdependent, constantly in motion.

That's really where we get a lot of this accessible language, especially when we start talking about like a Shalom-shaped communion. All of this language—

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Liz Daye: comes directly from this really scary, really weird-sounding thing that actually isn't that scary when we start taking a look at it.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, Liz, just because you are a theologian, I want us to dive even just a little bit deeper.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so is, in your understanding of the Trinity, we have God the Father, Jesus the Son, Holy Spirit. Is there a hierarchy? Because God is one, so there is equality, yet is there a hierarchy?

Liz Daye: So based on historic Christian teaching, there is no hierarchy in the Godhead, right? There is no— there's no, you know, ranking of importance. There is no, you know, one was first, second, third.

None of that is language that is appropriate for when we're talking about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Over and over, the testimony of Scripture, when we really look at the whole story of it, we see this God that is power-sharing and overflowing with love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Liz Daye: And it's, God is much less concerned with power and authority and hierarchy and much more concerned with sharing love and sharing goodness with the world and promoting shalom.

So I think that, yeah, even just reimagining some of the ways that we think about power and hierarchy, what might it look like and how might our faith be affected if we started reimagining that a little bit, maybe reevaluating where we've internalized some of those assumptions.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Liz Daye: Specifically about God the Father.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, Liz, too. And when you think about it, because the Trinity really— they're all out loving each other, out serving each other. I mean, that's really what they're doing.

And so if you're looking at that as the template for how we relate to each other in what you called a shalom-shaped community, okay, break that down for me. What in your definition is a shalom-shaped community?

Liz Daye: Right, so when we're looking at the very beginning at the Hebrew Bible, starting in Genesis 1 and 2, when everything that God made was perfect and wonderful and beautiful. That is the best picture of shalom that we have in the Bible, right? It's in picture form where all of creation is living in right relationship.

Everybody's doing what they're supposed to do. The trees are cooperating. Like, everything in nature is rightly related.

When sin comes in and destroys that and fractures that and breaks that Then now our new mission, you know, as resurrection people is to be people of shalom because the way that it started, that's our, that's our destiny in Revelation. When it's all said and done, God is going to bring us back to this shalom-shaped communion.

And so I think promoting that and living that out, like practicing now how we're going to be living for eternity, is again where we get just a consistent vocabulary for a way to be with one another in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, I'm loving this. Okay, so let's take that from the pages of the Bible to our church pews.

Okay, so what does this look like, like this shared siblinghood? What, what would it look like in everyday church life?

Liz Daye: I think, you know, for us, we've experienced this. And I, you know, in other conversations we've talked about, you know, does your church structure need to change, or does the way that you have your programs, you know, organized, does that need to change? You can live this way regardless of how your church is structured, right?

And I think part of it is just— is paying attention to suffering. That's a really big part of the work that I do as a chaplain. But it's also something that my church is just very good at, making space to pay attention and slow down enough to say, okay, I see that something's happening here.

How can I enter in and be with this person? And that creates space for a lot of really interesting things to happen, but it creates space for the Holy Spirit to, to be a part of that moment. So I think that we're looking at how do we live this way and how do we enact it?

It's not a checklist of things that we need to do. It's really just an approach of how can I make sure that I am, I'm really experiencing the people that I'm with, that I'm slowing down enough to pay attention. And yeah, I think, I don't know about you, but we, I tend, I have 4 kids.

We live busy lives. You know, we're always, you know, bopping around all over the place and slowing down can be very challenging.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah. And a little unsettling because it's easier.

Yeah. It's easier just to speed through, you know, as you're describing it, I'm thinking it's like the difference between Liz, a formula and family. You know, we come in with our church life, our life in Christ.

Here's the formula. I do my devotionals, I do this, I go serve the poor, I come home, I read my Bible.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so different than just, I'm part of the family.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm gonna be a sister today, and I'm gonna be available to love and to serve and to do nothing if I need to do nothing. And it's so different. But it— I can see how, let's be honest, there's a little insecurity there because it's easier to have a formula and be in the fast lane.

Liz Daye: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whew, okay, this is really good.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so you're talking a lot about discipleship, obviously, though that's just a word, you know, that I try to not avoid, but I try not to overuse it because I think it sounds formulaic again. And you're really talking about relationships that spur us on to shalom and deeper life in Christ.

So I'm curious how your work, because it's so interesting what you've done as a hospital chaplain, you've seen a lot, you've dealt with a lot of trauma care, I'm curious how that's changed your understanding of what I just called discipleship.

Liz Daye: Yeah, I think, you know, even just based on my own family's experience shuttling kids back and forth to the children's hospital and things like that, I came to experience this dissonance where I couldn't check the boxes the way that I really want.

I wanted to be a good faithful Christian, right? I wanted to check the boxes and be a reliable volunteer and show up when I was supposed to show up and, you know, contribute what I was supposed to contribute.

And especially when we were in this several-year season of just being back and forth in the hospital, I couldn't do that. And I realized that in part I couldn't do it because we're not supposed to approach our faith that way. So in that season, I learned how to receive as a sister, and that was really meaningful to me.

But it also helped me make space to say, you know what, even if I'm not productive, I'm still a part of this family. And even if I, you know, need to say, I'm a person, I need space right now.

I need to rest. My soul needs rest. You know, my family's going to want that for me because they love me.

And so I think even just remembering that the family of God is special, and it's supposed to be something that promotes safety and promotes healing and wholeness for all of us, especially those of us that are suffering or that are going through a hard diagnosis or a trauma or an accident or something beyond our control.

Those, those boxes, you'll find they limit us very quickly and they marginalize people very quickly. And because when you're in the hospital, you can't even think straight enough to check a box.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Liz Daye: Yeah. So I think even especially in those weeks where I just, I wasn't sleeping, I was caregiving, I was very tired. I wanted to make sure that I could ground myself in something that was true about God.

So when I'm in the hospital and I'm either with a patient or I'm with one of my children or whatever the case is, I'm asking, what is God like here? Because I need to ask that so that I can know what's true. And so that in that moment, I can have comfort that is rooted in truth, that is rooted in something real.

And that's what it looks like to promote that kind of discipleship, because that shouldn't be an individual thing, right? We should be doing that in community with each other. When we're going through hard stuff, we need to remind one another the truth about the Triune God, that God is with us, that the incarnation is a big deal because God is with us.

So yeah, I mean, I think that that just gives us space to practice compassion and to really live out this faith. I think practicing compassion is a much better word than, or a much better phrase than discipleship.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right.

Liz Daye: Because it encompasses all of the different things that we can do. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Liz Daye: And even just the way that we can just exist without doing anything!

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just being and being together. And you know, I love that you kind of reframed the situation where, what is God like right now? Because often we think of, okay, what is my situation like right now?

Or how do I feel right now? And you're saying in the midst of these difficult situations, you're looking, okay, what is God like right now?

Who is He right now? Because that is the grounding reality.

That's really beautiful. And so you mentioned And Liz, compassion.

And so let's go another place that could be somewhat controversial, okay? Because some Christians, I think because of a misunderstanding or because of the political charge of certain phrases, they get all freaked out when they hear the words social justice, okay?

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so let's talk about that. What role should justice socially and compassion play in our everyday family life as the family of God?

Liz Daye: Yeah, I think when I look at Scripture, again, I'm always going to turn to Scripture. That's my primary lens through which I want to view the world and encounter God, right? So when I'm thinking about Scripture, and when I'm thinking about the concept of justice specifically, you know, justice and righteousness aren't something that the Bible separates.

They're two sides of the same coin. So really, it's the way that we're living as righteous believers, that is going to translate to just living and living justly in right relationship. And I think when we let those 2 kind of sets of vocabulary talk to each other, like the language of righteousness and holiness and the language of justice, we realize that we have to do these things in community.

And we can't— we— the Christian faith, the testimony of Scripture doesn't let us live faith alone, isolated by ourselves. And so much of the teaching of Scripture is now that we are resurrection people representing a God that is alive in the world, what does that look like?

How do we shine brightly? We do that through our relationships.

So think about the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Every single one of those things, they're not, again, they're not things that you check off on a box.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Liz Daye: They are, they're, they describe the way that relationships should be lived. There should be goodness. In relationships, if you go down that list, it shouldn't feel like a list.

It should just feel like, oh yeah, this is what I want to promote in these different ways of you know being a parent, being a friend, being a minister, being a neighbor, being a person.

And then I think that we can, forgetting all the hot button buzzwords and all of the politically charged language, I think that just scripture and just looking at it through that lens gives us enough of a framework to remember that we have a responsibility to our communities and to the people that are around us, especially to the vulnerable.

And we need to take our Christian responsibility seriously to live as compassionate people, to represent a compassionate God in the world, and to promote goodness.

I think that that's really important. And again, there's not room in the New Testament, there's not room in scripture to live a private faith by yourself, disconnected from everybody else. We don't get that luxury.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Liz Daye: So yeah, I hope that we can invite one another into relationship, into communion, into community with God, not just as our template, but God is inviting us into the life of God. It's—

Jennifer Rothschild: yeah.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Liz, this is a good conversation for us all to have together because I think sometimes we, I mean, we, we are, our hearts are so confused sometimes and we become so self-centered. My faith, my Jesus, my personal Savior, my this, my that. And we're in the family and, and The nature of Christianity and being Christlike is deeply relational.

And so what a good reminder. Yeah, we don't have the fruits of the Spirit so we can feed ourselves.

So that's a beautiful thing. And so as we're talking about this community, you write about cultivating communities of inclusion, reciprocity, and mutual care.

Liz Daye: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those are 3 very interesting words that I want us to kind of hit: inclusion, reciprocity, and mutual care. Okay, so first of all, how do we do this? And if we do, what does it look like?

Liz Daye: It's gonna look a lot of different ways because again, when we talk about inclusion, there's not just one way. That's the whole point is we want to make space for more than just one experience to feel like they belong and that they matter.

So that means we're going to pay attention to who's around us, who's in our community, and we're gonna get uncomfortable really fast because you know, if you have, for example, a friend that's going through a really tricky divorce, and she's trying to decide, is it safe for me to go to church?

Am I going to belong there? Is she really going to belong there? Like, do we nod and smile and have our slogans that say you belong here?

Or are we actually going to say, you know what, I recognize that this situation needs something even more specific, right? And that specificity is really where we show love for one another.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Liz Daye: It's really easy to do things generally, but when we get specific, when we get personal, when we know names and faces and what their hands feel like, that, that makes everything a little bit different. Um, so that's the inclusion part is, that's kind of where I would start there. What was the next one?

Jennifer Rothschild: Reciprocity.

Liz Daye: Reciprocity. Okay. This is, this is huge for especially those of us in evangelicalism, right?

Because We're told a lot of times that it's, you know, you're more blessed to give than to receive. We have all these messages about being generous, and this is good, right? Generosity is a good Christian virtue.

And also, the gospel is something we receive, and we receive it freely. So even just making space to say, yes, I'm going to be a generous person, and there are going to be times where I need to receive, and I need to be willing to receive. And having that mindset of, yes, there's going to be giving, and yes, there's going to be receiving.

Otherwise, if we're only giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, it creates subtle hierarchy between people who feel really, really good that they're the givers all the time, um, and, and people who can't give as much or can't be recognized. And that's, that's not how God's family is supposed to work, right?

We have this Romans 16 picture of God's family, you know, living in reciprocity, giving and sharing with the poor, sharing with one another, living in vibrant community, communion, living not just on Sunday, but every single day.

So it's just a different kind of picture of living that— I don't know, like, I remember there was one time I was volunteering for Vacation Bible School several years ago. They're doing this big fundraising situation, and all of the parents were in the back with their checkbooks because they wanted to win the fundraising competition.

I love that. And I'm just thinking, like, these are 4th and 5th graders. This is— this doesn't feel like it matches, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Liz Daye: And like little things like that. But those are— they're theological choices that we're making, right? We need to have vocabulary to say, this is really what God's family is supposed to look like and live like and act like.

And we have to have the language so that we can have healthier communities and healthier attitudes. Especially towards, I know it is frustrating to say I need something. It is humbling and it is, yeah, all the things.

I mean, it's sad to feel like you have a need that's not going to be met. And I think the more that we can be with one another in those unmet needs, beautiful things happen there. They really do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, when you think about it, Liz, that is the mutual care.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you're describing. And for us to be prideful and say, nope, I'm the giver, I don't have needs.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's truly robbing your sister or brother from their mandate to meet your needs and to receive the blessing for helping. And it doesn't esteem them. So one of the things I, I don't know if you know this about me, but my friends that listen do, is that I'm blind.

And one of the hardest things for me is always asking for help. And I remember one time I was talking to Joni Eareckson Tada, Yeah. Who's, you know, been in a wheelchair her whole life.

I was talking to her about my frustration that I always feel like a burden. I hate asking people for help.

And she said she had to make that shift, that she realizes when she asks someone like to open a door for her at a restaurant, she's giving them an opportunity to feel esteemed. And it changed my view of recognizing I still don't love needing, you know, I would rather be able to do things myself.

Liz Daye: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course. But humility is never a bad thing. And oh, what our own personal humility grants someone else can be so life-giving.

And that's part of being in a family. So I think that's kind of what you're describing.

Yes? No?

Liz Daye: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, in a sense, we do get to model that for our, our brothers and sisters in the family, right? We may feel it and experience it a different way.

But yeah, and even just recognizing we do all have needs, some of them are more physical, and they— we notice them more. But yeah, we all have needs and we should all delight in receiving care and offering care.

There's so much goodness there. There really is.

Jennifer Rothschild: So much goodness. This is such a good conversation, Liz. I, I'm so grateful you've written a book.

I think it's going to be a great book to dive deep into. We're going to get to our last question though on this conversation, because you know, this is the place where thoughtful people come to grow. And boy, have you given us a lot to think about.

But my last question for you is this. Give me something that's really helped you. What is something you'd recommend that over the years perhaps has helped you grow?

Liz Daye: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things that I had to learn, especially as a chaplain, I needed to walk much slower. Or as my friend who is in a wheelchair reminds me, I need to move through the world much slower. Typically, when we get a code at the hospital, I have to respond to every situation.

If I am out of breath and having an asthma attack by the time I get there, I'm not going to be an effective minister. Right. So I have learned that while there is urgency, I am also not the one doing CPR, right?

Nobody wants that. I need to remember that for me to do good work, I have to move slower. For me to check in with my body so that I can care for everybody else in the room, I need to slow down enough to make space for myself as a person, myself as a minister, not because I'm being selfish, but because I really want to make sure that I'm doing my best work and caring for people in a way that's meaningful.

If I'm so busy and I'm so distracted, I'm not even in my body, I'm not going to represent God well in that situation, right? Especially if it's a life and death moment. So I think just really— And obviously not every situation is a life and death moment, but sometimes they are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Moving slower makes a big difference. It really does.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Good stuff, Liz. Good stuff. Did you hear, my friends, that she said that if you want to grow, walk much slower?

Walk much slower. Move through the world a little more slowly. And did you hear her say that if you If you can't breathe, you can't minister.

Yeah. If you're running so fast that you're hyperventilating, how can you serve others?

I just love it. So her book, by the way, it's a great reminder of who you are in the family. So, so let's love each other well, my friends, and let's focus more on being family than following formulas.

All you heard today, you can find, of course, at the show notes by reading the transcript. Again, it's easy for you to share the podcast from there.

You can get her book. I just want you to get what you need to keep growing and to keep thinking. And let us just be who God's called us to be for him and for each other.

All right. Have a great week. I can't wait till you join me again next week at the Jennifer Rothschild Show.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: How To Do Relationships Like Jesus with Wayne Francis

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Wayne Francis: It's the vulnerability that I think allows us to resonate with his work. So there is a theological framework of saying, I am who I am in Christ, and that I live to please him.

And I'm not going to just kind of divulge every part of me to people that aren't worthy of getting that level of exposure. There is some TMI at certain places, but living in the authentic place that my validation doesn't come from you and external resources, it comes from The Holy Spirit's activity in my life and His endorsement and seal on my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey friends, welcome to The Jennifer Rothschild Show. Do you know why you're here? Because this is where thoughtful people come to grow, and you're a thoughtful person.

And so I'm glad you're here because, ooh, we are going to grow today. So let me start with a question. Don't you want meaningful relationships that build you up?

And don't burn you out? Mm-hmm. Me too.

Well, today, pastor and speaker Wayne Francis draws from scripture, lived experience, and years of ministry in the heart of New York City to show that friendship, it's not just a social add-on or an emotional luxury. It's part of God's blueprint for your flourishing. Ooh, this guy, he is so delightful and he's deep.

So settle in and let's grow. Well, hey friends, I'm so glad you're here. You picked a good day to pop in on the Jennifer Rothschild Show.

And by the way, can I just say, as we get going here, uh, if you have not yet left a review, please do. I really want to hear your heart and know what you're thinking, how this is serving you and ministering to you. So please leave a review, an honest one.

Well, if you want to be super honest and it's not positive, just email me, please. But if you got something fairly decent to say, say it in public. Okay.

On whatever platform you listen to, please leave me a review. But I truly mean this. I want this to serve you well.

Also share the podcast. Please share it, share it on your socials, share it with your people. Because I do this for you and I want it to multiply the message, not just of what God has given me, but y'all, there are so many amazing Brothers and sisters who God is using that I get to have really thoughtful conversations with.

And I want them to be shared because these are God's people and we're his family. So let's encourage each other. I happen to be— speaking of the family of God— I happen to be in Michigan right now on the road.

Well, or on a ferry, I should say. Mackinac Island in Michigan. It's a women's retreat that I'm doing.

And next week when I get home, please Please, please pray for me if the Lord leads you and reminds you, and I pray he will remind you. I am filming my next Bible study, the teaching portions. The Bible study is on Jesus, literally.

No, like, that's the title. Like, everything I write eventually involves Jesus, of course, but this Bible study is literally called Jesus, and the subtitle is Walking with Him Through the Library of Scripture. So I finished the manuscript, and now because it's a video-enhanced Bible study, I will be filming all 7 teaching sessions live in Springfield, Missouri.

So I know this is last minute for you, but if you're nearby, come on. It will be an encouragement. You'd be in the live audience.

You'll show up on film, you know, so wear your lipstick, but it'd be so fun to have you there. It's going to be really special, but I, I really want to represent him well. I mean, my goodness, he saved our lives.

I want to represent him well. So please pray that he gives me clarity of mind and the perfect words to teach so that he is represented well. All right.

I'll tell you somebody who represents him well. And that is my guest today. I had never met him before, and y'all, what a fun guy!

Like I just really when you hear this, you'll hear clearly. I resonated with him. I grew up in Miami, and like he is so New York, and I had a lot of New York friends in Miami, and so like I resonated immediately.

I went right back to my roots. But Wayne Francis, he is the lead pastor for Life Church New York, which is located in Westchester County. And besides pastoring and being like an amazing speaker and teacher, he's also the. chaplain for the Brooklyn Nets.

Very cool, right? He's married to Claudine, and I love this, he calls her classy, and he has 2 beautiful daughters. So you're gonna really love this conversation.

So settle in and get ready to enjoy what Wayne Francis has to say. All right, Wayne, I'm super glad we're gonna be talking today about your book, but before we get there, I just read in your bio something about you that I have got to ask. It says you take pleasure in turning any floor into a dance floor.

Okay, I gotta know more. Do you like to dance? What's up?

Wayne Francis: I love dancing. I think dancing is a great way for us to release whatever sorrows or complicated thoughts that we have. Nobody thinks a whole lot about the issues of their life when they're dancing. You're just having a good time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I agree. I'm, I'm a terrible dancer and I love to dance. Oh my gosh, I love it.

I love it. So you dance with your wife or do you just do your own little boogie on the kitchen floor? What do you do?

Wayne Francis: Oh, I do. I dance with my wife. I dance with my kids.

I dance to anybody that's around. I'll, I'll drop it like it's hot, pick it back up like it's lukewarm. I'm 51 years old, so it's dropping it like it's hot is a little bit more lukewarm, but I get it popping. I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Spoken like a true New Yorker there. I love that. Okay, you're very— this— that's, that's so fun.

That says a lot about your personality, and I love it. Joy, joy, joy.

Wayne Francis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so we're going to talk about something that sometimes is a more tender subject because we're talking about friendship, and your book is called Make Friends with Anyone. Okay, now before we even talk about friendship and loneliness and all the things, your book is called Make Friends with Anyone. I'm curious, why didn't you call your book, Make Friends with Everyone?

Wayne Francis: You know, that's fascinating because when I was going back and forth with our editor, that was actually the original title. But we felt like that was overwhelming because sometimes relationally, it's very hard to make friends with everyone. But it's more accessible for a person to say that I can make a friend with anyone.

That's more strategic and focused because it might not always be healthy to make friends with everyone around you, but you should have the capacity to make friends with anyone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I like that. I like that. And I like that it reduces the overwhelm, but it becomes this beautiful invitation.

And we need it because we don't have to talk about stats right now to know that loneliness is an epidemic. I mean, people are lonely.

Wayne Francis: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I'm curious, when you think of loneliness, do you think it's more about just a lack of people, or do you think it's A lack of meaningful people in people's lives? What, what do you think loneliness is? What's the root of it?

Wayne Francis: I actually think it's the third option, which is the lack of connection to meaningful people, because I think that sometimes we're surrounded by meaningful people, whether that's our family members, our spouses, people that we go to work with. But I think we lack the ability to connect with vulnerability and safety.

And so we are more digitally connected than we've ever been, but more relationally disconnected than we've ever been.

And so we're We're in full rooms, we just don't have a full soul. We're obese on connections, but we're anemic on depth. So I think that's where we're at.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so you mentioned 2 words, vulnerability and safety. Is it because we're nervous about being vulnerable, or we don't feel safe, or both, or either?

Wayne Francis: I think it's actually both, right? There's so much at risk right now in terms of being, you know, there's this sort of challenge to being your true authentic self in some ways, or divulging the parts of us that aren't as pretty And so vulnerability usually leaves people with what I call a vulnerability hangover. You're like, oh dude, should I have said that to them?

I don't know what they're going to do with that information. Because so many of us have had the safest parts of us weaponized to either manipulate us or to control. And so it is a little bit scary sometimes to dive into a relationship with a person based on vulnerability.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, 100% agree. And there's this weird tension between Ah, we can still be honest with people without being so thorough.

Wayne Francis: Right, right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: That we compromise privacy or things like that. I mean, and there's a difference too between privacy and secrecy. I mean, it's just this weird nuanced thing.

So no matter— no wonder a lot of people just are like, okay, it's easier just to, you know, send somebody a text or relate online where I can control. Um, how much do you think control, a sense of control, has to do with, um, this loneliness epidemic?

Wayne Francis: I think, um, it plays a big role because we're all optical illusionists that want to convey the fact that we're okay and that we're not hurt. We're Teflon, we're this, we're that. And yet that's the barrier to— and this is why we exhale when we meet that person that does just drop it like it's hot in some, you know, random restaurant or whatever, because they seem so free.

We all want to be free. We all want to be the best version of ourselves that aren't grabbing the fig leaves like our first parents did after they You know, committed the first sin, right? We want to go back to the proverbial Eden where we can be what I would say is emotionally nude with people, where there is no shame, where we're at a place where we can say, hey, this is how I'm feeling. This might not be accurate or true, but we're whiteboarding in a way where it's safe in front of the people that we love and that are near us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's good. That's interesting. And so as I hear you describe that, and we're going to get a little more into the nitty-gritty of literally doing friendship, but I'm curious about -- just theoretically, is it our safety in God, our security and identity in him, that kind of sets us up for success in this area? What is it theoretically on the more global scheme that allows us to take that vulnerable next step?

Wayne Francis: I actually think that's a really great question, Jennifer. I think that is a theological framework that we have to kind of wrestle with. Because if we look at the writings of the Apostle Paul, who I think is one of the most vulnerable leaders of all time, particularly in the New Testament, listening, he's kind of like, yeah, I used to be this real bad guy.

I persecuted the church. He was so aware and self-aware of allowing himself to be vulnerable. Think about how he wrestles publicly with people throughout millennia to say, hey, the good that I would do, I, I don't do it because evil presents itself.

Oh, I'm such a wretched man, right? That is vulnerable. I mean, you are the Apostle Paul, dude, and you're talking about you struggle with sin like me.

But it frees all of us to enter into this space when he says things like, man, I prayed and 3 times I deny it. It's the vulnerability that I think allows us to resonate with his work. So there is a theological framework of saying, I am who I am in Christ, and that I live to please him.

And I'm not going to just kind of divulge every part of me to people that aren't worthy of getting that level of exposure. There is some TMI at certain places.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Wayne Francis: But living in the authentic place that my validation doesn't come from you and external resources, it comes from the Holy Spirit's activity in my life and his endorsement and seal on my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that— his endorsement and seal on my life. I'm so glad. I've never thought of— well, first of all, I've never thought of the blustery Apostle Paul as vulnerable.

But you're absolutely right. He is. And I love to see even just talking about him shows us, Wayne, that strength and vulnerability.

But yeah, when we're positioned, endorsed, sealed, signed, it's done. Nothing. We risk nothing.

Wayne Francis: Which is so interesting. Because if you compare his personality, the Apostle Paul, to let's say to Peter. Peter, who seemed to be pretty vulnerable in the New Testament, like in terms of saying what was on his mind, like what was on his mind was out his mouth.

In his writings, he doesn't really get vulnerable about what he did. You never hear him say in the epistles like, hey, I, Peter, the one who denied Christ 3 times, like he doesn't do that. And yet you look at Paul and Paul's just letting his stuff out. And I think that there's the beauty of different personalities.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is. It is the different personalities. And it's also such a beautiful paradigm to think, okay, when we're safe in God, we can risk with others.

And we're not going to step into the ocean until we realize that we can risk. And so, okay, that was an obvious transition since, you know, your book, but that's what I want us to do. I want to go into the ocean.

Wayne Francis: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because you've got this cool framework. I think there's 5.

Wayne Francis: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Show us the different types of relationships based on this paradigm you created, this framework.

Wayne Francis: Yeah. This is a rubric that I think is so useful for us to figure out how to stratify our friendships. Bit of a nod to the way that Jesus even stratified his friendships.

But the first level in this, uh, rubric is we have sunbathing relationships. That's the surface-level relationships where you talk to the other mom that's at the bus stop with you as you're picking up your kids. It's the barista at your local coffee shop.

You don't get deep with them, but there's sunbather relationships, and it's great to just chat and talk about things that are casual. The only problem is if you stay on the surface too long, you get sunburned. So the second relationship level that I talk about in the book is surfers.

Surfers are the people that seem to come into your life on the waves of life, the rhythms of life. They recede with the ebb and flow. So these are the friends that celebrate you when the graduations happen and the weddings, but you might not talk to them for about 3 or 4 months. But most people that are surfers would say this about this type of personality: we just pick up where we left off.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Wayne Francis: Those are the type of friends that they just roll in and they roll out. The next level is a snorkeler. A snorkeler is a person that you can get a little bit under the surface with.

You might tell them about a couple of things that are bothering you. You might get a little bit more vulnerable, but certainly you're still protected. You're just seeing some parts of their world, and they're seeing a part of your world that's a lot more different that you couldn't see from the sunbathing level, and you couldn't see from the surfer level.

But the relationships that mostly endear many of us, or at least that is aspirational for us, is the Uh, snorkeling level. Snorkelers are the people that you go deep with, man. You have apparatus, you're getting down and dirty.

They're knowing about your problems, your heartaches, that your husband is getting on your nerves and so are your kids, that you're— you've been betrayed and backstabbed. They know some things about your childhood traumas and all that. And the interesting thing about scuba divers is that if you both pull out the relationship too fast, you'll get the bends.

So you stay committed. The last level of relationships that I think is fascinating is the submarine level. This is the deepest level of relationship.

This is the people that you have mutual destruction with because you are willing to go into the depths and you are totally vulnerable, totally in a place where you share the most exclusive type of friendship possible. The beautiful thing about a submarine relationship though is that it's the only one where you can enjoy every level because submarines can float toward the top and it'll be okay, and sometimes you can get a little bit lower and go deep. It's one of those relationships that is the safest, but you got to be careful because not everybody can be at that level of depth, and you can't confuse— you can't give submarine access to people that are sunbathers. It's a— there's a strategic way of connecting with people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, that is so good. And I know just like I was listening, others were analyzing the people in our lives and who we are in their lives.

And so that's really good framework. Okay, so what have you found though, especially understanding kind of what you just shared with us, what have you found that What's to be the most like challenging part of making these intentional or meaningful relationships, maybe toward the snorkeling, getting down to the diving to the submarine level? What is it? Yeah, it's hardest.

Wayne Francis: I think giving people trust to go there and the idea of, you have to be okay with not always receiving the reciprocity that you might intend. You have to take a risk to get to those levels of relationship. And I actually have in the book, a friendship audit where you can Yeah.

And you can actually take a quick test, sort of similar to the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs or anything, to find out what type of natural propensity you have in relationships, which will help you on how you relate to other people. But basically, it takes trust. You got to trust the apparatus.

And too many of us, we keep floaties on for safety to just kind of wade around them. But if you see an adult with floaties on in a pool, there's something wrong with that, right? Adults should learn how to take the risk to swim.

And I think that's the most important thing. takes risk, and you will get hurt, and you do have to reorder friendships. There is no sort of like nirvana toward relationships. You're gonna get hurt. Jesus got hurt.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I didn't even think about that, but you're right. He was betrayed. And whoo, okay, so interesting, Pastor.

And I, I love this because I'm glad you've written it into the book because this is the kind of thing we don't just glean in a 30-minute conversation on a podcast. I'm glad we can go deeper in the book. But one thing that strikes me just as a pragmatic point, someone listening right now, and she's into friendships, of course, but I'm curious, how would you recommend that she honors her marriage, but still cultivates meaningful friendships outside of her marriage?

Wayne Francis: Yeah, that's a great question. Because I think that there is something that happens. And this sometimes is not the most popular thing.

Because I hear spouses say, well, this person is my best friend, or my husband's my best friend, or my wife is my best friend. And I actually think that that's possible and beautiful in its own respect. But I also think that it's limiting.

I actually think that couples should have somebody of the same gender that is their close friend, because it's a different type of relationship. And God has made it so that we need relationships. They're oxygen.

They're not optional. And I think sometimes we can hide the parts of ourselves in this kind of like, oh, my spouse is my best friend thing, when we actually need to know certain things about a person through somebody else. God has made it a 90-degree angle. There are things— my wife has been in perimenopause— that I can empathize with, but she gonna need some girlfriends, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: You can't help her with that.

Wayne Francis: I can't help you with that, right? And there's certain things that the male soul needs affirmation through that my wife may not be able to supply. That doesn't mean that it's a lesser relationship.

It just means that God has made us to experience the best and the worst out of each other, and we cannot experience the best of God without the best and worst of each other. And that can't be in a marriage context. We have to be discipled by people that are different than us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Listen, that is such a good word, and I hope my girlfriends out there have heard that. You know, my— I love my husband.

He is a stud, but he's not my BFF. I mean, I've got girl BFFs, and he would not want that job. It's a lot.

Wayne Francis: It's a lot, right? I know sometimes it's unpopular, but sometimes it's a, it's a safety measure because people are afraid to be vulnerable with somebody that they're not covenanted with financially, emotionally, children, and so on and so forth. It's because it gets scary.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right. Well, and I know this, Wayne, I'm a better wife because of my girlfriends. Yes, I learned from how they relate to their husbands, and I'm not gonna, you know, gain that from my husband being my one and only BFF for the rest of my life.

Wayne Francis: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Um, yeah, iron sharpens iron. So I'm curious about you personally, like, what is the most unusual way that you've ever made a friend?

Wayne Francis: Oh, wow. Well, you know, I've done so many different things. Like, I've slid into the DMs of a pastor that I wanted to learn from and just texted and said, hey dude, can I have lunch with you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Nice.

Wayne Francis: Um, because I'm a new church planter and you look like you're doing something great. I'm the guy that you don't want to sit next to on an airplane because I am going to talk to you. Put your earbuds in because I'm gonna make a way to have a friendship with you.

But usually I am so into making friendships that I am constantly talking to people. I'm curious about humans, about what they're wearing. I live in New York City, obviously, and it's like there's fashion and there's art and so on.

So I don't know if there's anything more unique. Oh, I made a friend after I broke my arm. That's a pretty unique way to make a friend.

And I just saw him on the street. Hey, yes, I broke my arm cycling last year.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Wayne Francis: And it was a great opportunity to make a friend with the EMS team. He literally came to my church about 2 days ago. It was Sunday and came to say hello and to check on my arm.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. I love that. So there's, there's plenty of avenues, but I'm curious what you would say.

In fact, we've only got a couple more questions here, Wayne, but I'm curious what you would say. So clearly, I mean, I would assume you're either a learned extrovert or you're a natural extrovert, but you talk to people. Okay.

Wayne Francis: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Some people aren't quite that wired. To the one who struggles to begin relationships, like, and she may feel isolated. What, what can you tell her? What would be a good first step for her?

Wayne Francis: The first step is to— you're gonna have to be okay with not feeling reciprocity or received, right? Like, somehow you have to dull the piece of us that is like, I don't want to be rejected. And you have to do it in your head first before you actually engage in a relationship.

Then the second thing is, I think introverts need to not worry about quantity. I think they need to just focus on one and let the one multiply in the way that it needs to. I think we don't need many friends in terms of like, uh, you know, 15 or 10 friends.

We need to take the courage to develop one, one that we can be vulnerable with. Because what happens is when we get into those relationships and we let those walls down and we get connected, it makes it easier for the next one. We become less resistant, we become less calculated.

Introverts tend to be a little bit more calculated, like, I just don't want to do that. Uh, That's odd. That's weird.

I think you just focus on uniting with the personality type that you feel most comfortable with, which probably isn't the opposite of you. It's probably somebody that's more like you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's, that's a good word. And I happen to be an introvert, which because of what I do, people are usually surprised by that. I've just, I love people and I'm curious.

So it translates as extroversion. But I will say, I've had seasons in my life, Wayne, where I've thought, okay, I literally have to change my mindset. set. People are gonna like you.

Act like they're gonna like you. Just go in with confidence and assume that they're gonna like you, because introverts overanalyze, you know?

Wayne Francis: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's—

Wayne Francis: We overcalculate.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do. It's such an interesting, um, observation you made. And I remember even as a little girl or teenager, I was starting to date and I was such a nervous wreck.

And my dad was like, okay— he sat down with me, precious dad. He sits down with me, he says, okay, here's 3 questions that you can ask anytime you have any kind of new relationship, and, and it just gets the ball rolling.

Wayne Francis: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Um, and honestly, I think sometimes we need to be that pragmatic, you know?

Wayne Francis: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because we're reducing that sense of self-awareness when we do, I think.

Wayne Francis: I agree. And Jennifer, I like to tell people, and especially for introverts, your mindset is determined by where you let your mind sit. And if your mind is always sitting in, I'm not going to be received, I'm going to be rejected, I'm going to have this, then that's probably the way your relationships are going to But when you have a right mindset, you set your mind in the right places and it becomes easier to arrive and show up to the world in a way that's authentic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Word. Okay, good stuff. Wow.

Okay, this is— you are delightful and I just, I'm so grateful for your energy. If I were near you, I would want you to dance with me so I'd be a better dancer.

Wayne Francis: 150%!

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, you'd be dragging this blind woman around your dance floor. You've not seen anything. Yet.

Here's our last question. All right, Wayne, so this podcast is where thoughtful people come to grow. So just leave us with something, anything you want to share with us that has helped you grow.

Wayne Francis: I think the things that, or the people that have helped me grow in the most recent cycle of my life have been the most challenging people, the people that were confrontational. I don't like confrontation. I try to to run away from confrontation a lot of times.

I want everybody to like me. I want everybody to love me. And usually a conflict delayed is a conflict escalated.

And I have had more growth with people and friends that have really called me to the mat on different things that didn't affect our relationship. Like, it wasn't me and them beefing about anything. It was like, hey, your life looks like it's moving really fast.

And, um, it looks like you're all over the place, and it feels like you're, you're not slowing down. In fact, I'll tell you how I grew recently. A friend of mine— I got my tattoo the other day.

51 years old. Exactly. And it was an homage to my grandmother and my mother.

My mother recently passed away about a year ago, and my friend was challenging me and saying that my personality is like a hummingbird, that I move around and all this stuff. And you, you know, you have this frenetic pace, which is good because you pollinate different areas, but you're also busy in a way that you don't rest. And, um, and the challenge was a gentle rebuke That has allowed me to grow and to become more settled in a new way of looking at myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, uh, you heard Wayne say he got his first tattoo. When we got off mic, he said, oh, it was a little awkward. I, I wasn't sure if I should have said that to your audience.

And then I told him, Wayne, I got my first tattoo also. Many of you know that I got it last year. When I turned 62, I got my first tattoo.

And he said, oh, that makes me feel so much better. Well, listen, I got 3 words on my arm that say, it is well, because that's the way I've lived my life. That's what Jesus has done for me.

And that's how I want to end my final days with those words on my lips and on my arm. It is well. Oh, it is well.

Okay. Here's a seed for thought to help you grow that I thought Wayne dropped that I thought was so helpful. When I asked him what helped him grow, He said people have helped him grow.

Isn't that interesting? People, but not just anybody. It's the ones who confront and challenge.

So be wise. I thought this was really smart what he said. Don't run from confrontation because conflict delayed becomes conflict escalated.

Now I know it's hard. I hate conflict, but I much more dislike ambiguous relationships where you don't know where you stand and where We have to stand on the eggshells to have any kind of conversation. So within these safe relationships that we have, he said rebuke has actually helped him grow.

Y'all, that's huge. That's huge. I think there's a lot here you're going to want to review.

So check out the show notes, of course, so you can read the transcript. His book will be there. Anything else that can help you grow is going to be right there on the show notes.

So thank you for sharing the podcast. Thank you for leaving a review. Thank you for praying for the Jesus Bible Study.

Man, do I love you and need you and appreciate you. You guys are the absolute best. So thanks for being a part of the podcast. Keep growing, and I will see you next week.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: When Your Answered Prayer Is NOT What You Expected with Melissa Miller

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Melissa Miller: And I think sometimes we don't realize that when we pray big prayers, it comes with big answers, which comes with big adjustment periods. So to be able to learn how to give myself grace in a feeling when I didn't feel like I had permission to admit how much I was struggling, because I was afraid people would say, well, you prayed for this, you wanted this, you know, you chose this.

And so to be able to learn how to give myself grace and lean into God during that time and calm my nervous system, I learned so much and changed I think personal change fatigue is just as valid.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome to The Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow, and that's why you're here. And today, author Melissa Miller, she's going to help us think and grow by offering biblical wisdom, neuroscience, and practical tools to help us navigate the seasons That often follow answered prayer.

Hmm. Yeah, sometimes it's not easy. In fact, Melissa says, just because something is blessed doesn't mean that it comes without a mess.

Amen. Well, you are about to understand the 4 seasons of blessings and get a framework to live whole. So, let's grow.

Well, hey friends, uh, I hope you're having a good day today. I'm actually on the road. We are on tour right now, and I'm at the Hope of Heaven Tour.

I'm with Kelly Mentor, and we are traveling through the Carolinas and Virginia. So if you're close by, I'll have a link on the show notes because we would love for you to come celebrate the hope of heaven with us. You love Kelly Mentor.

So do I. Y'all, we have so It was such a beautiful time together, just celebrating not just that heaven is the place we're going someday, but it's the reality we can live today. That is the hope that we need.

And so, I'm not even gonna talk too long to you about anything this morning because y'all need to hear from my new friend, Melissa. It was a super good conversation and an interesting paradigm about blessing. She's really gonna unpack that there are 4 seasons of blessing.

I'd never thought about this before, and I want you to really think about it also. So, let me tell you who she is. She is a self-proclaimed family girl.

She's the author and a Reboot Retreat facilitator. This is something she's done. You'll wanna check it out.

I'll have it on the show notes also. She's married. The woman's got 5 children.

She's written this book, and she lives in Tennessee. Now, I gotta tell you something really fun about her though. Melissa says that just one more chapter is a perfectly reasonable bedtime strategy.

And Melissa, I must agree. And I think you guys probably do too. All right, my friends, I want you to enjoy this conversation I had with Melissa Miller.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Melissa. I'm glad we're talking about your new book because in the first chapter of your book, which is called But I Prayed for This, you share this whirlwind— like, it made me need a nap, okay?— about adopting 2 kids, starting a new career, relocating, like, all at once. Okay, so I want you to walk us through this scenario, this season for you, and specifically, I want you to talk to us about change fatigue because it's a thing.

Melissa Miller: Yeah. Yeah, I never expected the answer to my prayers to be one of the hardest times in my life. And I've been through some very hard times.

But sometimes when big life changes all happen simultaneously, we don't realize the impact that that's gonna have on our nervous systems, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Melissa Miller: And so I had relocated all the way across the country from California to Florida. I had stepped into a new job and I had planned on adopting. My husband and I had been waiting to adopt for 5 years, but the Lord took us in a different direction and we ended up adopting a sibling. from foster care.

So it was 2, not one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Melissa Miller: And so there was so much adjustment all at once that I found myself feeling like I was overwhelmed and I was drowning and I was living someone else's life and I was disoriented. And I felt so guilty because these were all the things that I prayed for.

And so, you know, wrapping myself in guilt and realizing that that wasn't really serving me and that wasn't really helping me move forward, I really had to start to do some research.

And the only thing that I could find that came close to what I was experiencing was the term change fatigue. And change fatigue is actually a term used for organizations and businesses, where they talk about how employees get tired of one change coming after another, and they start to grow tired and kind of feel resigned and checked out. And that was the only term that I felt like really described what I was experiencing.

I wasn't depressed. I wasn't hopeless. I wasn't in a crisis.

I wasn't in a tragedy. But I was experiencing change fatigue. I was just exhausted from all the life changes happening all at once.

And I think sometimes we don't realize that when we pray big prayers, it comes with big answers, which comes with big adjustment periods. So to be able to learn how to give myself grace in a feeling when I didn't feel like I had permission to admit how much I was struggling, because I was afraid people would say, well, you, you prayed for this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Miller: You wanted this, you know, you chose this. And so to be able to learn how to give myself grace and lean into God during that time and, and calm my nervous system, I, I learned so much. And change fatigue is— I'm just stealing that term.

I think personal change fatigue is just as valid.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, in the business of being you as, as your, your boss and your employee, you're both, there's a lot going on, a lot of change. And so yeah, to adapt, the constant adapting. You're right, it's absolutely exhausting.

And I'm glad you mentioned how it affects our nervous system, because in a little bit I want us to talk about that. But this reminds me of something you also talk about in your book, that, that you introduced this framework, okay, called the 4 Seasons of Blessing. Because what you're just describing, it was a blessing.

Melissa Miller: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it was hard, right? So you talk about the 4 Seasons of blessing. I want you to break this down and help us to understand that.

Melissa Miller: Yeah, as I went on and continued to do research for the book, I started kind of dropping that term out to other people that I knew and seeing if they maybe were experiencing some change fatigue too, or what their stepping into God yes looked like. And I started to notice some commonalities, and I basically broke them down into 4 seasons. And the first season is a season of blooming.

And I think that's what we all expect an answer to prayer to feel like or be like. And I can look back and I can look at times in my life when I was fully blooming, I was content and peaceful, and everything went according to plan, and everything was smooth, and my nervous system wasn't dysregulated. And it was just kind of those seasons of life we want to push pause on.

And I think, kind of like the prayer of Jabez, it says God granted his request, period, end of story. There was like nothing else after that. Like, wouldn't that be nice?

Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Melissa Miller: But oftentimes, we find ourselves in one of the other seasons of blessing, and the next season is a season of building. And that's when your answer to prayer came with a whole lot of hard work. And maybe you felt like you were supposed to be living the dream, and you are living drained and overwhelmed.

And, you know, I talk about in the book of Nehemiah, how his answer to prayer was such a meaningful assignment for him, and yet he found himself wondering how in the world they were going to remove— move all the rubble. And they said that the workers were so weary, and so exhausted, they were struggling.

And most of the book of Nehemiah is about that messy middle journey of living in God's yes, and having it be harder and more labor-intensive than you ever imagined.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Miller: Even though there was blessing and spiritual renewal at the end, and all of those things, you know, sometimes there's those seasons when we step into a dream, and we realize, okay, wow, this is really stretching me to my limits.

And so I have a story in there about one of my sisters who entered a really rigorous graduate program, and she was in her, her office, her manager's office, regularly having panic attacks. And so sometimes, you know, these, these experiences can be really isolating because this is what she chose.

This was her dream school. She wouldn't pick another path.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Melissa Miller: But yet it was stretching her to her limits. And, you know, I wanted to provide a safe place for those who are in that season of building to admit that there's a weight to it. And then there's the season.

Oh, you wanted to say something?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Well, I just, I, I wanted to affirm that because I'm glad you did that, Melissa, because I think sometimes we think, well, I have the capacity for building. I'm gonna keep building.

But then there are times when our body's like, whoa, sissy, you, you, we need, you don't like, let, we gotta calm down here. And we just, sometimes our brain and our, we gotta We gotta trust our bodies. And so, yeah, I've had those seasons where all is going well, but yeah, the panic is crazy sometimes and you just don't— you gotta listen to your nervous system.

Okay. All right. This is so good.

Okay. So blooming, building. What's the third season?

Melissa Miller: Then the third season is a season of balancing, and that's when everything is right on the outside, but wrong on the inside. My friend Brianne, she started searching post-wedding depression because she couldn't explain why she felt so off on the inside, even though there was nothing wrong with her marriage or her wedding or her husband. And she couldn't explain the tears.

And I think sometimes that there can be a lot of guilt involved in that, that we should feel different. We should feel different maybe after that baby is born, but you sink into postpartum depression, or you should feel different, you know, after you entered that dream. And, and now you have these confusing feelings to sort through.

And so, I talk about in the scriptures how maybe Moses should have felt honored to be chosen as Israel's leader. And instead, he felt really insecure. And I can really relate to Moses.

I felt like when I adopted that I was going to feel like I was made for this. I was adopted, my husband was adopted. I thought I was going to step into it feeling like I was, you know, the woman from The Sound of Music.

Like, I really had this expectation, like I was gonna wake up and read them wholesome literature every morning and bake zucchini bread. And I just had these expectations of the kind of mom that I was going to be. And the reality was stepping into it, I felt really in over my head.

And so, I can relate to those in a season of balancing. Sometimes it's not a disappointment in your circumstance, it's just the way that you feel when it arrives. And those can be really confusing seasons.

And then the 4th season is a bittersweet season. And I talk about this in light of the people who have stepped into a blessing, and they were maybe thrown a curveball right at the same time. And it kind of feels like emotional whiplash.

Like, you have this blessing that you're celebrating, and yet this hardship or this trial or this curveball did not check your calendar before it arrived. And you have 2 things going on, and it's like celebrating one moment and grieving the next. And that also can be a really confusing experience.

You know, we think about Elijah when he had that big victory in ministry, and then, you know, within a short timeframe, he was hiding because he got a death threat.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Miller: And he was no longer celebrating, you know, he was asking God to take his life. And so, I use a story in the book about my friend Hannah, who she got the baby boy that she prayed for. But when she woke up from the C-section, and from that experience, they had to do an emergency hysterectomy, and she almost died in surgery.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Melissa Miller: And so she wakes up celebrating this new baby boy, and then also trying to grapple with the fact that she would never be able to give birth again. And so those seasons are weighty and confusing.

And I don't feel like when I was doing research, that there was a lot of information or resources out there for the people that found themselves in one of these seasons, the blooming or the balancing, the building, or the bittersweet seasons.

And I really wanted to provide language for people to describe their experience and be able to drop the guilt because we are humans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Miller: God designed us as human beings with real nervous systems that really respond to the things around us and to what we're experiencing. And to be able to offer that to somebody who maybe needed some grace in their hard time, when they're maybe isolating and maybe not admitting to anybody how much they're really struggling, which is really why I wrote the book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, Melissa, I just want to say, I love this framework. I appreciate that you've given language to it, because I agree with you 100%. We don't know.

And sometimes what we're uncertain about, especially as believers, we just think, well, I should feel differently, so therefore I feel guilty, so therefore I will not share. And what you're saying is, here's language. Everybody finds themselves in one of these seasons from time to time.

And gosh, sometimes it can happen at the same time.

Melissa Miller: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so it's okay. Let's talk about this. And I love that you've provided a resource.

Because I know you walk through these very specifically with the reader. You did mention something though that I do want us to circle back to— expectations. Okay, that's a big deal.

And in your book, you mentioned a concept called reward prediction error. Okay, I'm going to say it again for our listeners: reward prediction error. All right, interesting concept.

I want you to explain this and tell us how it applies to us.

Melissa Miller: Well, I'll be the first to admit that I had some unrealistic expectations. Like I said, I was not Maria von Trapp from The Sound of Music and, uh, Mary Poppins like I expected to be.

I, uh, I definitely entered into a very humbling season, and I, I had 5 years that gathered up and expectations of what I was gonna be like and what it was gonna feel like and and the reality is we got— all 7 of us in my family got hit with COVID the first week of placement.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Melissa Miller: So not only am I still kind of trying to wrap my mind around a relocation and the weight of that and a new job, I was trying to show up and be my best when I felt like my worst and trying to navigate virtual school and all the social workers and all the different language of foster care and attachment and trauma. And I was just in over my head.

And the reward prediction error, what I discovered is when you start to begin to stack up expectations of what something good that's coming is going to look like or be like or feel like, and the higher and the more specific your expectations gain, what happens is, is when your brain doesn't get that payoff, the dopamine drops from the height of your expectations.

And so—

Jennifer Rothschild: Man.

Melissa Miller: I ask readers, what did you expect? Not because I'm being accusatory. Because Friend to Friend, I can look back and realize where my expectations were not in line with biblical expectations.

Because we are designed to expect, we are designed to have faith, we are designed to believe in the goodness of God and in various promises in Scripture. But we can get really off course when we start to create in our mind some very specific expectations that are not in line with what God promises in Scripture.

And so I really help readers -- you know, I call it What to Expect When You're Expecting. We all probably remember that old pregnancy book. We are expecting something. So let's make sure our expectations actually align up with what Scripture says we can expect.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow. Okay, huge. That's so huge.

I always tell myself and my people, let's have our expectations rise to the level of grace. Because you just— we expect the best, but oh, you got to have it line up to the level of grace, which gives a lot of breathing room for disappointment and joy all at the same time. That's super practical and super good.

All right, in your book also, you emphasize the power of prayer walking, which I love. And so you share that there's this scientific research behind it. I want you to tell us about this.

How— what's the connection between the brain science, the scientific research, prayer walking, and how this can impact us?

Melissa Miller: Oh yeah. craving walking during my time of change. Like, I couldn't explain it, but I had to walk sometimes multiple times a day. And I didn't even realize how much science there was to back up the benefits of walking.

And then what began as walking became prayer walking. And now I'm combining the scientific benefits of prayer as well as inviting, you know, heaven to earth. And so I began to really experience some really great breakthrough moments with God during prayer walks.

And, you know, Dr. David Rossmann, he's a psychologist and Harvard medical professor, explained that prayer can actually soothe our nervous system, quiet the fight-or-flight response, and reduce emotional reactivity and anger. And walking has similar benefits. And I talk about all the science behind walking in my book as well.

And it says that 3 minutes a day of walking will cause blood pressure to decrease. 20 minutes outside improves mood, and 90 minutes outside can reduce the number of depressive thoughts. And there, it helps the brain. And there's examples in there of how it helps the brain.

And I didn't realize until later on, oh, that's why I was craving walking. That's why during my season of absolute dysregulation in my nervous system, that I needed to walk because there were files in my brain that just needed to be pulled out and processed with God. And it became a rhythm in my life that I really look forward to, especially when I'm experiencing something confusing or experiencing something that really I need to take to the Lord and I'm uncertain about.

I can go on a prayer walk and really remember that God's got this.

Jennifer Rothschild: So during that season, when you just craved it, you just thought, I've got to walk. I mean, clearly, what a beautiful thing, how fearfully and wonderfully we're made, that God gave you that impulse, that drive, that craving, because He knew that that would be the way.

Melissa Miller: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: To satisfy the need. Okay, so that was— I'm gonna use the word reactive. Now that you've understood it and you've seen the benefit in your life, is it a discipline?

Is it something you're proactive about, or do you still just do that when you feel the need?

Melissa Miller: At this point, we live in a bit of a different neighborhood that isn't as good for walking, but I do find myself sometimes going and walking the trail that we have nearby. I have to drive to it about 10 minutes, but it's about a 45-minute trail and it's outside in beautiful nature. And if I'm in the right season, not winter.

I'll go walk that trail. And sometimes I won't even have headphones or anything because I've just learned to enjoy the space, the quiet, the, the slowing down, and not always feeling the need to have content in my ears and just to be with the Lord.

I also found that I love pickleball, and that was something new that I discovered when I was in my season where I realized I needed a hobby outside of the house because the inside of my house had become—

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Miller: Um, the party place for all the kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Melissa Miller: And so I, I do still have that habit and that rhythm in my life because I think we all need to find something that allows our brain to just turn off and focus on whatever it is that is nonessential in that moment. And that became pickleball for me. And I think it's different for every person.

And I have a whole chapter that kind of provides a menu for people because I realize, Jennifer, what refreshes me might not refresh you, or what helps me turn my brain off might be different for you. And so, you know, you're in those seasons where you can't even think beyond your next meal, like, it's helpful to have that all laid out for you of just options. Like, you can circle, I think this might be helpful.

Maybe it's not pickleball, but maybe it's something else. And, and so I really wanted to do the thinking for the readers so that they can walk away with some really practical help.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's generous because you're right, when you're in that season, you can't make one more choice. It's just easier to pick one. That's super helpful.

All right, so there's something I can't wait for you to unpack. Okay, the W-H-O-L-E, Framework for Emotional and Spiritual Health. Okay.

You've gotta walk us through these rhythms. I wanna know what each letter stands for and what—

Melissa Miller: Okay. Yes, I'd love to. Yeah.

So I discovered that I have been through various coaching certifications and different things in my life, and some of them really prioritize the different domains of life, but I had never really had a framework that kind of felt like it was, it covered all the domains that I think need to be covered for me personally. And so I created this little breakdown that's whole.

W is wellness, that's for your physical health.

H is heart, for your emotional health.

O is outlook, for your mindset.

And L is life with God, for your spiritual health.

And E is engagement, for your relationships.

And so really, it's a way to look at how God loves all of you, the whole of you, not just the part of you that goes and has your quiet time and reads your Bible, but he wants to take care of all of you and wants to make sure that the whole of you is, is, is prioritized.

And sometimes, you know, even a good therapist will tell you, you can't even process a Bible verse if you're still dysregulated or having a panic attack and you haven't taken care of your body first.

And so sometimes there is, is times in our life where we need to remember that we are a whole being and remember that God wants, God wants all of us, right? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength.

And, and that's really what that chapter does, is it just breaks down each domain of our life and gives you, like I said, kind of a menu to choose from of things that you can do either daily, weekly, or monthly to prioritize that particular domain in your life.

Jennifer Rothschild: I appreciate that so much because it's true. I mean, I have learned that after all these years, I— you cannot just pick one. We, we are a whole being.

And that's beautiful. Um, and so practical. I love practical.

Okay, so somebody's listening and they're like big time resonating and like they're having what I will just call for this conversation a Melissa Miller moment where they are stepped into something that they're like, what in the world just happened? I prayed for this. I wanted this.

This is good stuff, but it's so hard. Okay. So what would you say to this person who stepped into that chapter?

Things are harder than they thought and they're starting over or just having to deal with all this change fatigue. What is the first step that they can take to just to find some stability and joy in this unfamiliar territory?

Melissa Miller: Well, I think first is a prayer walk, and not just a prayer walk, but the kind of prayer walk where you pour your honest heart out before God and you allow him to meet you right where you're at, not right where you think you should be.

And I think that's sometimes the pitfall that we fall into when we're praying, is that we wrap ourselves up and package our prayers up and package what we think God wants to hear us say, rather than just allowing him to meet you right where you're at. That is where transformation can begin, is when we get honest with ourselves and with God about where our heart really is at.

And that gives God the opportunity to transform it, right? He can't transform it if we're just pretending that it doesn't need to be transformed. And so, um, that's, I think, step one.

And I think one really super practical rhythm that I put in place was I started to realize that I had pizza night on the calendar for Sunday night. And I started to realize that that small little non-negotiable on my calendar at the time was giving my brain something to look forward to. It was maximizing what researchers call the anticipatory brain, where your brain is anticipating something before it comes.

And I think that's why God calls us to not just have a Sabbath, but He says, remember the Sabbath, right? Remember that that day of rest is coming. Your brain and your body respond to if they know something good is coming and some day of rest is coming.

It's like it helps enable us to make it through the hard days when we know we've got some non-negotiables on our calendar that are coming up that we can look forward to. Maybe it's pickleball, maybe it's church on Sunday, maybe it's your small group, maybe it's date night.

Whatever it is, being able to put even small things on your calendar that you can look forward to so that allows you to give yourself something to look forward to on the days that feel really heavy or hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is so practical. You are my kind of girl. You know, I even do that with travel.

Like, my husband and I are at the stage of life where we have the ability now to do a big trip a year, and literally I think about that trip every day, practically. I plan it, I do little things. I mean, I'll even be like, what am I gonna buy when I go to Istanbul?

I mean, little things.

Melissa Miller: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it does— it helps me go there before I get there and enjoy the benefit of being there before I leave. And that is super healthy for me mentally because I escape. And my brain just loves it.

I can tell. Okay, my friends listening, uh, obviously this book is going to be teeming with practical resources, and I can just tell friendship from a coach who's been there. So I highly recommend your book, Melissa.

I'm super thankful, and I just cannot wait to hear the answer to this question because this is our last question. And this is where thoughtful people come to grow. Clearly you are a thoughtful person.

Clearly, you have experienced so much growth. So can you give us just one habit, one perspective, one action, anything you want that has helped you? We want to know just one thing that has really helped you grow.

Melissa Miller: Well, besides prayer walking and the things that I already mentioned, I would just say finding a come-as-you-are friend, because seasons like that can be very isolating, and you need at least one person that you can go to where it's a judgment-free zone.

They know you, they know your heart, they know that you're not a complainer, you're not ungrateful, but you have an honest space to call and say, hey, I think I need some prayer today. And I was able to find a come-as-you-are friend.

And looking back on the hardest moments of the season, I remember I would go to my patio and call her, and she was in a similar season. There, there was moments she needed to call me, or sometimes it was just we'd text each other a little prayer emoji, and we knew what that meant.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Melissa Miller: We knew that we were going to pray for each other. And so I think don't go on Don't go on the journey alone. Make sure that you have someone that you can open up to and they can help you carry the weight.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Did you catch that? Melissa said that what has helped her grow, besides prayer walking, is finding a come-as-you-are friend.

That really hit me. who just show no judgment and just are safe, just safe to talk to and be with. And you know what it reminded me when she said that? I literally just had an experience this week that really caused me to tear up.

In fact, you'll get a kick out of this. I've talked about her before and written about her, my friend Kim. I've had my nails done for probably 20 years, not really because I care about my nails, but because I care about Kim.

And we just have a dear friendship. And so, we were talking of— I don't even know what we were talking about. It doesn't matter.

But she just, like, in the middle of it, interrupted, and she said, Jennifer, you are my no-effort friend. I started to cry. She started to cry.

Kenzie, my assistant, who's young, walks in. We're crying. Kim looks at her. And by the way, Kim and I are in our 60s. And Kim says, I think we're on our periods. Sorry, men.

Anyway, I think we're on our periods because we were both crying. But it was because it was just one of the sweetest comments. It's what Melissa's talking about, a come-as-you-are friend.

And for me personally, it was super meaningful because I'm blind and I feel like I create a lot of effort for my friends. So for her to call me a no-effort friend, wow. No-effort friends, come-as-you-are friends, they help us grow.

So if you don't have one, be one. Be one. Become one for someone else. It'll change your life.

All right, my people. Man, what a good conversation. I know you wanna read her book. I know you wanna read the transcript. I know you know where to go. So go to the transcript. At the show notes, find all you need there and have a wonderful week. Optimize every minute.

Keep thinking, keep growing. I'll see you next week.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: Why Christianity Is Still Relevant with Alister E. McGrath

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Dr. Alister McGrath: People are asking how Christianity can help them to find meaning, how it can really enable them to live a good life. And they don't really want to talk all that much about, you know, the rationality of belief. What they want to know is, tell me the difference it's going to make to me.

And, you know, we all can tell them good things that will really help them understand that. But the rethinking we need to do is making sure we can answer those questions about how our faith helps us live good lives, Helps us hope in the face of a suffering world, and also helps us to find meaning and purpose. Those are such wonderful things.

And the great news is they're all there waiting for us to unpack them and unfold them. And that's what Christianity is like.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome to the Jennifer Rothschild Show. I'm so glad you are here. This is where thoughtful people come to grow.

And today, one of the most thoughtful people I have ever read is He is a highly respected Christian scholar. He's an author and a professor at— wait for it— Oxford University. His name is Dr. Alister McGrath.

And y'all, he is used to very deep conversations about faith, like whether he's in a debate with the New Atheists or in just helping people understand the legacy of C.S. Lewis. Mm. Dr. McGrath is passionate about inviting people, including you and me, to consider or reappreciate the depth and the meaning of our Christian faith.

Oof, that's what we're gonna do today, and you are going to love this, mate. So let's grow. Well, hey people, I'm so glad you're here.

Wow, I hope you've had a good week. I've had a good week. I thought I would bring 2 things with me to the microphone that you cannot see.

But there are 2 things that I keep on my desk. Well, actually not on my desk anymore because I've knocked them off too many times. I'll be honest.

I keep them on my shelf because they're tiny. 2 rocks. Now let me tell you about these 2 rocks because it has something to do with what we're going to talk about with Dr. McGrath today. The first rock is a little bigger.

It's actually part of like a brick, a broken piece of brick. And I got it the first time I went to Oxford, England. Okay, so you may know if we've been friends for a while that like Oxford is my happy place.

Well, when I'm in the States, Target, I'll be honest, is my happy place. But when I get to travel internationally, I love Oxford, England. In fact, I am convinced on the new earth, that's where the Lord's gonna let me live, in the renewed, restored Oxford, England.

And so when I was there the first time, it was because I was studying C.S. Lewis with the C.S. Lewis Foundation. This dear man. Kim Gilnett was kind of my mentor that week in teaching.

And he just a dear, he became a dear friend. I just love this, this guy. And so anyway, he knew what an affection I had for C.S. Lewis and how much his works had meant to me.

And so on the very last day, he had me hold out my hand and then he said, he put this like broken piece of brick in it. And he said, do you know what this is? I said, no.

He said, this came from near the foundation. It's just a broken piece of brick from C.S. Lewis's home. the kilns. Oh my goodness, y'all, I burst into tears.

It was so meaningful. And so I have cherished that little piece of brick because it came from C.S. Lewis's home. And the Lord has just used C.S. Lewis so much in my life.

In fact, one of the first books I ever read about C.S. Lewis was written by Alister McGrath. Okay, so that's one rock. Now, the other rock that I have on my shelf is super meaningful because I got it another time when I got to go to Oxford, England, when I was walking down what's called Addison's Walk.

It's there at Magdalen College where C.S. Lewis taught there in Oxford. And so I was walking with my hubby, and it's just kind of a gravelly, rocky path there at the college. And the story goes that C.S. Lewis, one night when he was a professor and he was still really grappling with Christianity, he was walking with his 2 friends, J.R.R. Tolkien and Hugo Dyson.

And they had already been discussing Christianity and how C.S. Lewis was just so enamored by myths. You know, he just loved the beauty of myth. And a lot of the myths that he was so enchanted by were these myths that talked about just these gods who would surrender themselves and die basically for their people and rise again like Baldr.

Okay, so knowing that context, as they're walking that night, again talking about Christianity, J.R.R. Tolkien basically just, you know, challenged, um, just challenged C.S. Lewis to say, hey, why is it that you can believe in these beautiful myths or not believe in them, but why do they enchant your heart and your heart gravitates to them?

But you can't believe the -- what he calls the true myth of the dying and resurrecting God, Jesus Christ, because all the other myths that came before were merely shadows and echoes pointing to this true myth, the reality of Christ stepping into our world. Well, God used that conversation with friends.

Catch that. God used that conversation with friends, among others, to really shape and draw C.S. Lewis to understand and receive the truths of Christianity. Okay?

Now, you need— this is why you need to read Alister McGrath's book, because he tells the story better than me. But I want you to hear the importance of what relationships are and how God uses relationships to draw us to Christ. So with that in mind, I do wanna introduce to you, uh, to Dr. McGrath because, oh my gosh, he, he is, he's just an amazing man.

And not only has he taught, but he'll tell you in this conversation that it's through relationships with students that he's found such meaning in sharing his faith and in seeing faith come to life in relationships. Okay. So, but I gotta give you this formal bio because dude, Like, he is amazing, okay?

Alister McGrath, he discovered Christianity when he was an undergrand— did I say undergrand? He was grand, but he was an undergrad at Oxford University. And y'all, it changed his life.

So, okay, check this out. He received first-class honors in chemistry at Oxford. Then he earned his first doctorate.

Okay, did you hear that? First doctorate in biomedical sciences, and then 2 others, which makes 3, for those of you who are listening, 3. So the 2 others were in theology and intellectual history.

Like, I barely know what that all means, okay? But he started teaching at Oxford in 1983, and now he serves as a senior research fellow at the Ian Ramsay Center for Science and Religion at Oxford. Okay, all right, so can we be honest?

He probably scored a little higher than, than we did on our SATs. But don't worry. Oh, he is so warm and charming and makes all this so accessible, and he's wise.

And you're gonna love Dr. McGrath. So let's listen in.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Professor McGrath, it is an honor to speak with you.

As I told you before we got on mic, yours was the first book I read on C.S. Lewis, and it just really shaped my, my love for Lewis. So I'm really honored to get to speak to you today, and we're gonna talk about your new book, Rethinking Christianity. But before we do, I want, I want our people to get to know you a little bit.

I want to get to know you a little bit because my understanding is you were a former atheist and you came to faith while you were studying chemistry at Oxford University. So take us to that part of your story and let us know a little bit about that transition.

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, that's right. Yeah, I grew up in Northern Ireland and I was an atheist then. I was really convinced that was the future.

It was back in the late 1960s and every intelligent person seemed to be an atheist. And I thought, hey, that's the way things are. And also, I was a scientist.

So I thought, well, you know, science and religion don't mix. Therefore, you know, if I'm a scientist, I have to be an atheist. But of course, then I arrived at Oxford University to study chemistry.

And guess what happened? I met some really articulate and really intelligent Christians. They began to explain what their faith was all about.

I began to realize, you know, I've got this one wrong. It's much more exciting and interesting than I had thought. And really, I began to rethink everything.

And my friend said, this guy you might enjoy reading called C.S. Lewis. I hadn't really heard of him very much. I knew he'd written a book about lions, but that was about as far as it went.

But then I read Lewis and actually just Lewis really helped me take off as a Christian. You know, he really gave me encouragement to give me a framework to think. And so that's really how I came to be a person of faith.

And I'm very grateful to my Christian friends and to C.S. Lewis for helping me along the way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it is similar. Your story and his mirror each other because it was there at Magdalen College and his friends. I mean, what a beautiful example.

And look now how God has used C.S. Lewis, how God has used you. And so part of the way he is still multiplying and deepening this message in you. And by the way, I just love to— I wish we had time to go into all of it, how faith and science are not mutually exclusive.

I mean, you've done so much work on that, which is such a gift to the body. But we're going to talk about this new book, Rethinking Christianity. Okay, so here's what I want to know, Professor.

What are you asking us to rethink? Like, have we gotten something wrong?

Dr. Alister McGrath: No, we haven't done anything wrong. It's just we haven't really appreciated Christianity for all it's worth. And the kind of rethinking I'm asking us to do is to begin to think again about the difference that Christianity makes to us.

Because one of the really interesting things is that people are asking how Christianity can help them to find meaning, how it can really enable them to live a good life. And, and they don't really want to talk all that much about, you know, the rationality of belief. What they want to know is, tell me the difference it's going to make to me.

And, you know, we all can tell them good things that will really help them understand that. But the rethinking we need to do is making sure we can answer those questions about how our faith helps us live good lives, helps us hope in the face of a suffering world, and also helps us to find meaning and purpose. Those are such wonderful things.

And the great news is they're all there waiting for us to unpack them and unfold them.

Jennifer Rothschild: And Yes, it is. Absolutely. And people, we can't share what we really know unless we've really thought through it again.

Sometimes it's the peril of the familiar. So, I appreciate the book giving us that chance to do that. And one of the things you talk about in your book is you contrast the difference between what you call moreness and lessness.

Okay, unpack what that means.

Dr. Alister McGrath: Yeah. Yeah, well, thank you for that. I mean, basically, it's all about this idea that Western culture is going through a period where it seems to have locked itself into a completely inadequate, unhelpful, unsatisfying way of living and thinking.

And what I'm saying is, look, that's a vision of lessness. Christianity gives us the vision of moreness. It gives us a bigger vision of who we can be.

It gives a bigger vision of what the world's like and says, let's bring God into the picture, because that changes everything. And in many ways, what I'm saying is that we find that in Western culture, there are so many people who are looking for something deep and satisfying, and that they're being given all this junk food by secularism, by materialism, and so on. And we really need to help them see what Christianity can do to give them a bigger, richer vision of life.

In short, more-ness, bigger vision of life, because you and I both know what that is, and people want us to talk about that. And that's why I think that's such an important idea.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is, because that's where our satisfaction really is. And so, in a lot of your earlier stuff, Alister, you focused on— oh, I don't know how to best say it, but maybe defending the rationality of what we believe, of Christian belief. But you have said that this new book that you've written, you're talking about why that matters.

Like, what difference does it really make? What difference this belief makes in our life. So, why is— because both matter, so why the shift?

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, I think I want to begin by just saying it really is important to help people see that Christianity does make sense, that you're not an idiot if you believe in God. And those are very important things to say. But the difficulty is that sometimes by defending the rationality of faith, we're in effect giving people the impression it's just about ideas.

These ideas are okay. But what I'm worried about is this, and I discovered this for myself after the New Atheism movement, where I'd done a lot of work to, in effect, defend the rationality of Christian faith. And one of my friends said to me, look, Alister, you've been very, very good at, you know, showing Christianity makes sense, but you're just limiting it to ideas.

There's so much more to Christianity than that. And so I began to say, right, let's talk about the difference that Christianity makes to us. Not just it's right and reasonable, but it really is utterly transformative and trustworthy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Dr. Alister McGrath: And people like that a lot. I remember one person said to me, look, Alister, I used to think Christianity was true, but you've helped me realize it's real. It really connects with me.

It makes a difference. It actually is transformative. And that's a very important point to make.

And it's a big theme throughout this book. And the good news is this, you don't need to have a PhD in philosophy to defend Christianity. You can say to people, look, let me tell you the difference this makes to my life.

And that's what people are really looking for. They're looking for a life-changing, a transformative way of thinking and living. That's what Christianity is.

And we don't need to give all these academic arguments. We can simply say, look, my experience is this. This might help you as you begin to explore your own personal journey of discovery.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that because that's so unintimidating, and especially coming from someone like you who has more terminal degrees than probably I could count on one hand. We do think in order to really defend, we need to know, we need to have, we need to have the relationship with Christ, not the relationship with the idea of Christ. And so, I think your book helps us to just press into that.

And I appreciate it. And one of the things you do is you really dive in. Well, I'll put it this way.

C.S. Lewis has that concept of chronological snobbery, and you deal with that in your book. It runs throughout your book. So, Tell us what that is.

And because our culture is so obsessed with novelty and the next shiniest thing, why is it that this— the historicity, the ancientness, the 2,000-year history of Christianity— has such a strength in our lives right now rather than a liability?

Dr. Alister McGrath: Oh, I just love that question because it just cuts to the heart of what this book is all about. What Lewis is saying is, look, old ideas don't disappear because they've been discredited. They just go out of fashion.

But someone with vision can bring them back into fashion and say, look, can you see the difference they make? And in many ways, that's one of the things Lewis does so well in his own writings. He, in effect, helps people to see these ideas are not outdated, they're not wrong, they are incredibly powerful and justified.

And in many ways, what my book is saying is really quite simple. Christianity has been around for 2,000 years for a very good reason. is able to speak to us deeply. It's able to transform us.

It's able to give us something that nothing else is able to do. So while many people say, oh, you know, 2,000 years old, that means it is just so old and boring, I say to them, it's been around for 2,000 years because it speaks truth to the human heart. It's actually utterly transformative.

And what I'm saying to my readers is, let's, let's, let's regain confidence in our faith. The fact it's been around for so long is not an embarrassment. It is a demonstration.

Here is something that really can change people's lives, capturing their imaginations, transforming their hearts. And it's that central idea: Christianity is not some transient movement. You know, that's what we have in Western culture at the moment.

You know, cultural change is so rapid that you believe something today and a year later it's out of date. Christianity is saying, here is something stable and secure. It's like that Wonderful parable in Matthew 7 where Christ asks us to build our house on a stable rock.

That's what Christianity is, a rock that endures the storms of life. So I think we need to rediscover that and rejoice in that.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you speak truth, my brother. Christianity— Christ has changed my life, and we stand on the shoulders of many who have said the same thing for 2,000 years. And there's a reason, you're right, that it endures.

One of the things that you deal with in your book that I thought was interesting, you connect this modern experience that we all have of status anxiety— I say we all have, maybe not all, but a lot of people do— status anxiety, you connect that with this Christian doctrine of justification by faith. Now, I think this is going to bring some freedom, so I want you to talk to us about that.

Dr. Alister McGrath: Well, I think this is a very good question. I mean, when I was young, I looked for assurance from everybody. I kind of had status anxiety in that.

So it is a really important issue. And one of the remarkable things about the Christian faith is In effect, it's about God accepting you as you are, enabling you to begin a new walk, a new journey. And as you journey, you grow in faith and you become more and more like Christ.

And this whole idea of justification by faith is about recognizing God's done everything necessary in Christ to redeem us, to say to us, look how much you matter to me. Christ died for you. That means you really do matter.

And in effect saying, look, stop fretting, worrying about anxiety, embrace the fullness of who God is and the difference he makes to you, and be confident in the Christian faith and be confident God loves you and wants to do something special in you and through you. So for me, really, Christianity has this powerful message for anybody who's suffering from status anxiety. We're just saying, look, once God accepts you, you matter.

You matter profoundly. And God wants you to discover what's special about you, the difference you can make. And that's a really important point because it gives you a new vision of who you are, what you can do.

And it means you stop worrying. You just trust God and you get on with things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Trust God and get on with things. All right, let's take that a little deeper because in your book, you identify 4 fundamental human questions: identity, value, purpose, and agency.

Okay, so talk to us about how the Christian story answers those major needs and questions.

Dr. Alister McGrath: I think we all want to be reassured that we really matter. I think it's a very deep anxiety. We touched on it, in fact, a moment ago.

This idea of mattering, psychologists call this existential mattering. It's really very important. And Christianity doesn't make this stuff up.

It's integral to the Christian faith. God loved the world so much that Christ died for us. That's how much we matter.

We see ourselves in a completely new way once we see ourselves through a Christian lens. And also, we have this sense, actually, God does love us, but something God wants us to do, he helps us to achieve things, a sense of agency. God's grace enables us to do things that We could not do on our own.

And the history of the New Testament makes it very, very clear. God is in the habit of taking people who think they are inadequate and weak and doing great things in them and through them. So that's really, really important.

And also having this sense of meaning that actually each of us really is significant in some special way. And very often God is the one who puts his finger on, here is what's so special about you and the difference that you make. That's one of the things I think Christianity is just so good at.

It's saying we're all individuals, but God's able to take us and use us in ways that are tailored to who we are. He's able to take us and use us in very special ways and taking us sometimes by surprise in what he wants us to do. So what I'm saying is modern psychology has made it clear these 4 questions are really, really important to people.

Christianity didn't rely on modern psychology to discover this. It's built into the deep structure of Christianity that these questions matter, and there are deeply significant Christian answers. And my anxiety is that we don't always appreciate what those answers are.

Hence the need to rethink Christianity and make sure we realize how Christianity gives very good answers to those questions you've just raised.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's so good. Isn't it interesting and beautiful that God provided the answer before we even recognized we had the question? It was already there in Christ.

Thank you, Lord. Okay, but let's just go. We've got a couple more questions here.

And Professor, this one's a hard one, okay? Because I think one of the things that believers who have walked with Christ for years— in fact, I spoke to one yesterday, and she just told me how because of some personal suffering and suffering in her family, It just shook her faith. Okay, well, that's for someone in Christ whose life has been built on that rock that you described from the book of Matthew.

But then there's those who look at Christianity and they think, okay, but what about suffering? So, in chapter 12, that's what you cover, and you say that suffering is not an intellectual riddle that we can hope to solve. Okay, so then here's the question: how then does Christianity respond to suffering?

Dr. Alister McGrath: He responds to suffering by perhaps the best answer that could ever be given, which is, look, you are not on your own when you suffer.

You don't want intellectual answers. You want to be reassured that God is still here, that God is still with you, that in effect, we have a God who knows what it's like to suffer, that in effect, this is a God who in effect journeys with you through suffering, holding you by the hand so that you can cope with this, and you'll come out the end A better and wiser person.

And, you know, I get a bit tired of sometimes reading all these philosophers talking about solutions to the problem of evil. God's solution to the problem of evil is to say, I am with you in your sufferings, in your pain, and I'm standing with you, standing by you. I'm going to lead you through this.

Remember Psalm 23?

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Alister McGrath: It's all about God walking with us, even as we walk through the valley of the shadow of death. We have this reassuring presence as we walk our way through a difficult and complex and suffering world and just know that God is with us as we travel.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so good. And, and then he will walk us right into the house of the Lord forever. Thank you, Lord.

Oh, Professor, this has been so good. I, I just really don't want to wind it up, but we're going to have to wind it up. So I'm going to ask you this as our last question.

So, so I say that this podcast is where thoughtful people come to grow. And so I would love to know, what is one thing in your life that has in the past or is currently helping you to grow that you could recommend to us?

Dr. Alister McGrath: I think understanding what the word grow means is really important. Sometimes we think, you know, growing your faith means, oh, understanding more ideas or learning more about the geography of Israel or something like that. No.

Growing in your faith is about realizing increasingly how every aspect of the Christian faith touches us in different ways. And sometimes, you know, we, we know some areas of our faith very well, but we don't know others. And in many ways, it's like stepping into a deep, rich lake and going deeper and deeper as we discover how wonderful Christianity is and the difference it can make to us.

And so if you like, Growth is about not simply understanding more. It's about, in effect, taking it all in, allowing it to change us, and saying, thank you, Lord, for leading me deeper into this wonderful faith. And it's just so wonderful.

And I long to go further in your power and in your presence. So for me, growing is a really important thing. So thank you for that wonderful question.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you just summarized what C.S. Lewis would have said, further up and further in. Well done. Thank you so much, Professor.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Did you realize that no matter what I asked Dr. McGrath, he came back to relationship? He came back to relationship and meaning, not information and rationality. Christianity is at its heart a relationship.

It's not just true. It is real. Did you catch that?

It's not just true. It's real. And I hope this conversation helps make the truth of Christianity even more real to you.

All right, his book comes out soon, so you can go to Amazon and preorder it. It's called Rethinking Christianity. And y'all, it's gonna help you to really review the truth that you believe, but it's also gonna help you feel prepared to live it and share it.

And by the way, if you are a Lewis geek like me, I highly recommend his book on C.S. Lewis, and I'll have links to all of his books, including that that one and the transcript on the show notes. So let me just remind you though, as we head out today, a little seed of thought that he dropped when I asked him what helped him grow. I loved it.

He said it's not from understanding more that he grows. It's not from learning more ideas or gaining more. It comes from taking it all in and going deeper.

And did you hear him say? Thank God for leading me deeper. Let's have the same praise on our lips.

Thank you, Lord, for leading us deeper. All right, my friends, keep thinking, keep growing. I'll see you next week.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: Where Are You Now God? with Tammy Trent

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Tammy Trent: I knew at that moment that somehow I wouldn't just survive, but I would overcome this. But I think it was in that moment, as she wrapped her arms around me, I felt the very presence of God breathing life into me, into my direction at that moment.

And I think that's when I knew that I knew that this is going to be hard, Tammy, but keep, keep, keep the faith and keep trusting God, even when, when there are no answers, even when there is silence.

When there are unanswered prayers, all the things that you're going to go through, not just this loss, but you have multitudes of things that you're going to face, and that things from your past that will also come up that you will face and wonder where God was in all of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome to the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow, and I'm so glad you are here because today, Tammy Trent, singer-songwriter, author, and my friend, is she is going to give you some really solid biblical insight, practical tools to help you ask the hard questions like, where are you now, God? Mm.

We've all asked those kind of questions, but Tammy is going to guide us to name our hidden wounds, and she is gonna keep us rooted in the truth that you are never alone. Oh, we're going deep, but it's not gonna be heavy. It's gonna be delightful.

So, settle in. And let's grow. Well, hey friends, I'm so glad you're here with me.

I hope you've had a good week. But we're in October, and you know what this is called? Pumpkin Spice Month.

You may be one of those women who love to go get your pumpkin spice from Starbucks. It's been out for a while, but now it's finally getting cool enough to drink it, as far as I'm concerned. But you know what?

Surprisingly, I am not a pumpkin I'm not a pumpkin spice girl. I don't like to drink it. I like to eat it in my pie, and I like to smell it in my house with my candles.

But I'm just such a purist when it comes to coffee that I don't drink pumpkin spice. But if you do, I hope you are enjoying one. But I don't know about you, one of my favorite things about fall is the clothes.

Can we be honest? I've entered the age in life where I'm so hot that I have to wear sleeveless, but I don't like wearing sleeveless, you know, because like when I'm done waving, my arms aren't, you know what I'm saying? And so, I love it when it cools off and I get to wear long sleeves.

It's just awesome. And it's also the time mostly when I'm on the road, which I've been on the road out getting to meet you guys, and it's just been a delight. And, you know, I was thinking about our conversation today with Tammy.

She's gonna deal with some hard questions. And it's interesting, at most of my events, there's some kind of Q&A. And a while back, someone asked me a question, and I didn't know that my hubby, Dr.

Phil, had recorded my response. And so, he just sent it to me. Just, you know, out of the blue, he said, hey, by the way, this is what you answered a question, which is helpful because I don't remember my answers often.

And anyway, when I heard it, I thought, oh my goodness, this fits so perfectly for what we're talking about today. So let me just take you to one of my live events and you can hear that somebody asked me a question that's pretty relevant. So this one was about unanswered prayer.

Here you go.

[LIVE RECORDING]

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think that's something that we as believers need to be very— we need to relax into the discomfort of that, that sometimes we literally don't know that God is answering us. We can know he hears us, but we may not know what his answer is. That's where faith comes in, because when we pray, it is about knowing that the object of our prayer, who is God, is faithful and hears us, and therefore we can not be as concerned about the outcome of the prayer.

Okay, and I know that's hard, but I guess I want to make it super clear. I don't always know that God is answering me, at least in the way I'm expecting. But I do know he is faithful to answer.

And I guess one of the things I would always go to is, first of all, the Word. If there's already an answer in the Word for what I've prayed about, well, if I don't feel like I'm hearing or feeling an answer, well, maybe it's because I have already received that answer in his Word. So I was going to go to his word first.

That's one way to confirm what an answer may be or if I've received it. Secondly, I think praying in community— where 2 or 3 are gathered, he is in our midst— when we pray in community, there can be the affirmation of a fellow believer that can help us understand perhaps if we have received an answer or if we have not.

[LIVE RECORDING ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I hope that helped you a little bit today, maybe, with what you're dealing with, because truly, we feel more peace and we have more freedom when we focus on the object of our prayer, who is God, not just the outcome, not just the outcome.

All right, my friends, now it's time to get to our girl Tammy Trent. She's going to be talking about her book, which deals with a lot of questions.

The main one is, where are you now, God? And you probably know Tammy because she has been Serving the Lord and people for more than 31 years. She got her first record deal in 1995.

And over the years, she's been a TV host, a speaker. She's authored 3 books. And today we're gonna be talking about that latest book.

Y'all, she is one of my favorite people ever. If you've never seen her live, you need to, because the girl can dance. All right, this conversation is gonna lift your heart and I hope deepen your faith.

So let's grow.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

Well, I already told you guys I'm so happy to have Tammy. Tammy, just one of my dearest friends. And before I let her talk, I just— I, I— this is why I bragged about her off mic, um, because there's just so much I could say with you, Tammy.

But you know you're one of my favorite people, and we have been able to serve together for years. And, uh, as I told my friends earlier, what that means to me is I get to see you on stage, off stage, on a bus, in a van, in an airport, and you're the same person every place. Oh, I love that.

That means the world to me. And, and, you know, you just— and not only are you just the real deal spiritually, of course, you are just fun. You're just absolutely fun.

So this conversation is gonna be that, but we are gonna start though with something that I can simply call unfun, okay? Because there are some people who don't yet know your story. And so, um, you had an experience with your husband Trent, and I wonder how much that situation caused you to ask the title of this new book, Where Are You, God?

So can you— um, Where Are You Now, God? So can you kind of take us to that situation?

Tammy Trent: Yeah, I mean, I think that for me, Jennifer, that, that's the foundation of my life is almost that the question and the answer that I searched for. And I think in the worst, deepest heartache, disappointment, unanswered prayers, unmet expectations, all of it came crashing down on me. And I have felt it through the years, pieces of it because of this huge one event in my life that I never saw coming.

And I met this kid in my youth group when we were 15 years old and fell in love, dated 7 and a half years. I went off to Bible college and came back and married the love of my life. And we were married for 11 great, wonderful, fantastic, adventurous years.

I was truly a lucky girl. I'm just gonna say it that way. I say blessed, I say lucky, all the things.

I had it all with this guy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: I just felt love every single day. He covered me very, very well. And we started traveling in ministry full-time together as I signed record deal, and he started managing me.

And, and I loved it because we were together all the time. And somehow we made it work. And it was 11 years into marriage, moved to Nashville.

We built our first home here. We were in this home for 2 years. You know, those seasons where I think many of us probably hit at one point or another where we probably say, man, it can't get any better than this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Tammy Trent: Like everything feels like it's Just going well, all the pieces are falling into place. You can see the hand of God. It all makes sense.

And I think that was a place that I was in. And, and yet I still had questions. And I remember being asked to go over to Jamaica on a missions trip.

And the questions that I had was the season of also wondering, though, what's next? What does God have next for me? Is it music?

Is it writing a book? Is it mission work? You know, kind of lots of questions of where are we supposed to be?

But the biggest question I had was maybe it's starting a family.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Tammy Trent: And so I remember talking to about that after 11 years of marriage. And he agreed, like he was so ready, had been ready for a long time. So we add a maternity to our insurance, we took off on this trip to Jamaica.

And I had no idea that everything, everything was about to shift. Everything was about to change in not only Trent's life, but also my life. And mine was the harder path because I remember waking up on September 11th from a really awful night on the 10th.

Trent had gone scuba diving, freediving in the Blue Lagoon on the 10th, and he never returned. And a search began for him on the morning of September 11th until they recovered his body. And that was my path of trying to put together the pieces of my life after a shattering loss.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Tammy Trent: And after I had all the questions of wondering and asking God, where are you? In this? Where are You now, right now, in the middle of my pain?

And that began my journey to try to find God in the worst moment of my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay. There's just so much here, Tammy. And because I know you well, and I know your story well, there's a couple of things I want to clarify as we continue to unpack the question, where are You, God?

Where are You now? Because I know you received some unique answers to that question, even in the midst of your most difficult heartache. But I also know we've got some very keen listeners.

Okay. And they're going, wait a minute, her name's Tammy Trent and her husband's name is Trent. Was he Trent Trent?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So why don't you just clarify that before we move on? Okay.

Tammy Trent: So many questions, my friend. So many questions. We've lost a few people already going, Trent Trent, what a stupid name.

So yeah, when I signed my first record deal in 1995, I took Trent's first name as my last name. Together, we were Tammy and Trent Lenderink. But on the platform, I became Tammy Trent.

And I loved it because truly, even God knowing how important that would be to me all these years later, that—

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: This incredible man who changed the heart of a girl, who influenced me, who spoke life into my spirit, who was the greatest spiritual covering this side of heaven for me, that he would always be somehow a part of this testimony in this ministry of my life that I have chosen to continue walking hand in hand with God. It's been a hard road. It has been nothing close to easy.

It's been very hard. But I think, Jen, one of the miracles that began to happen for me standing on the edge of the water that day, knowing that everything was going to shift and change, is somehow, somehow I had enough in me to know that That Trent was now somehow a part of my future, not my past.

And so, if I really believed in all the things that I'd been speaking about, if I really believed in all the things I'd been taught, all the things I had studied, all the things that I truly believed, then it, for me, came to that moment, like future, heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: Is heaven real? Is God real? Is everything I've ever learned and studied, the promises of God, Are they for real?

Do they work for me or do they not work for me? And I think at that moment, I knew that it would be a very hard road, but that somehow, if I kept choosing faith, I would find some of the answers that my heart was longing to know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because, you know, when you ask a question like that, you're overseas, and you did mention September 11th, and we can't forget what happened on that September 11th. So you're stranded in Jamaica, you've lost your husband. All you have is God.

And I can only imagine the sheer— just the way your soul would have been totally torn and shattered.

Tammy Trent: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I think it's interesting, and we're going to talk about some of the ways that we know the presence of God is with us, because that's what you deal with in your book. But I think there's something that happened in a hotel room in Jamaica. Your father-in-law had just arrived, but your father-in-law went back to the Blue Lagoon to see where he lost his son.

You're just alone in a Hilton hotel, and you're crying. And I believe God answered that question, where are you now, God, through someone else. Can you give— take us to that scene?

Tammy Trent: Yeah, it might have been one of the first times that I asked that question in the most serious way. I was in a bathroom and just, you know, curled up with my blankets and just weeping and crying. And as I tell you the story now, I always, even every time I tell it, I can go right back to that moment, right back to that place of just crying out to God, asking Him where He is.

Like, do you see me? Do you see this girl? Are you there?

Um, can you pick me up? Do you see the disappointment? Do you see the brokenness?

Um, if you're there, could you send me someone to hold me? And I remember feeling something coming over my spirit, and I knew it was, was Holy Spirit saying, move, move, move. And so I got up and I just started to move, not even knowing exactly what it meant.

But that's the point. Sometimes you just have to respond. And so I responded.

And I moved and I moved and I made my way over to this opening in a doorway. It was the adjoining room that I was sharing with my father-in-law. And I looked in and I saw this beautiful Jamaican woman standing there in a Hilton housekeeping outfit.

And I remember looking at her and just saying, can you come in and just make my bed? Could you just come in and make my bed? And it had come right after I had prayed to God, one, to send me someone if you're real, all the things, send me somebody, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tammy Trent: So here I'm asking her to come in and she looks at me and says, I could hear you crying, and I've been trying to get to you. Then she said, could I just come in and hold you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh!

Tammy Trent: It was an instant answer to my prayer, Jen, because it was specifically the thing I also asked. Not just, are you real? But, would you send me somebody to hold me?

And here she was saying, can I just come in and hold you? I don't know what's happened to you, but I know it's deep. I can see it.

I can feel it. It's deep. Have you lost somebody?

And so, I went on to tell her, I have. I have. And so, she began to pray over me.

And I knew at that moment that somehow I wouldn't just survive, but I would overcome this. But I think it was in that moment, as she wrapped her arms around me, I felt the very presence of God breathing life into me, into my direction at that moment. And I think that's when I knew that I knew that this is going to be hard, Tammy, but keep—

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: Keep the faith and keep trusting God, even when there are no answers, even when there is silence. When there are unanswered prayers, all the things that you're going to go through, not just this loss, but you have multitudes of things that you're going to face, and things from your past that will also come up that you will face and wonder where God was in all of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, what a beautiful picture. And I don't want us to miss that you asked specifically. You know, when you're asking God, reveal Your presence to me, show me You're here, help me to deal with these unanswered questions, even right this minute, you are very specific in your request, and He showed His presence, to be strong by specifically responding.

And he can do that for all of us. But you mentioned in that moment, these beautiful Jamaican arms are surrounding you, and you know, it's not just the loss right now, but it's the loss I'm about to live for the next decades.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So here you are decades later, and you've dealt with grief. You probably still do.

I mean, I can't imagine you wouldn't. So how do we grieve and at the same time, release the life that we hoped we would have? Like, how do we balance that tension?

Tammy Trent: That's the million-dollar question, right? I think we all have that. How, how do I balance this tension?

So, this book for me, let me start with this, it really was birthed out of that place. Like, if anybody, you know, as you and I are out ministering weekend after weekend to hundreds of thousands of especially women, we talk to them a lot. We hear What they have to say, the questions they have when they say, pray for me, if they send us an email.

So, I thought for one moment, like, I'm not the only one going through all of this stuff, right? So, there's a lot of us. So, if you've ever whispered, God, where are you?

In the middle of heartbreak, disappointment, loss, unanswered prayers, this is the book I wrote for them, not just my story. So, it's kind of evolved past my story of grief, and it went deeper into, now, how can I help somebody else?

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Tammy Trent: Because if they don't have the answers. They have to be able to know where God is in the middle of those questions. You don't have to have all the answers, but you do need to know where God is when life doesn't make sense.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: So, for me, Jen, it was sitting down writing this book. I went back— the first chapter, I went back and dove into trauma in my life when I was a little girl, and how it affected my life, my relationships, because I thought of so many women that are probably in the in the heartbreak that they've carried of trauma or shame, have probably cried out to God, where were you when this? Where were you when that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: And trying to find the presence of God. And so, I dug into those kinds of questions, whether it was the unmet expectations, the shame, the divorce, the health, the cancer scares, like all of those things I have faced since even losing Trent or watched my family go through things. I had a lot of moments where I asked God, where are you?

And then let me now dig into the Word. And so, if I can find your fingerprint through Hagar's story, through Naomi and Ruth, through the woman at the well, through Mary and Martha, through the woman with the issue of blood, how about the guys on the road to Emmaus, or Moses, or Joseph being thrown in the pit by his brothers? How did he— how did he come through that rejection? some of us face and we don't know how to get through that.

What about Saul, who became Paul? So I dove into all of these different topics. So not just my story of loss anymore, but, but let me go deeper.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: Let me go deeper and share with you maybe years later where I sat in my study one night writing this book and I looked at my bookshelves and I saw a bunch of children's books that Trent and I had been collecting since the beginning of our marriage. And all of a sudden, Jen, it hit me all these years later what I've been carrying still in the unmet expectation of what should have been, what could have been, but didn't happen in my life. The dream that didn't happen.

The voices of children filling this home in this hallway, every hallway in my home. It didn't happen for me. So even in my studies, I started writing that chapter on unmet expectations.

I was kind of faced with a lot of things and even some more grief and letting go and facing things. So, I think for me, I just kind of thought about every woman that feels like she just doesn't have answers. And what— I don't think the book for me was like, I'm not going to sit here and fix everything for you.

I don't think I'm going to be able to do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Tammy Trent: I'm not a counselor. I'm not a therapist. That'd be fantastic, or even a Bible teacher.

But I do know that if you do not know the presence of God, if you do not know the voice of God, if you do not know the character of God, you will fall deeper and deeper into a pit that will be harder and harder to get out of eventually. So, your greatest investment that I think you'll make, anybody will make, in your life, in your home, in your finances, in your career, is maybe in strengthening your faith before the next storm comes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes. Isn't that just a beautiful daily investment?

It's a daily investment. And you know, when you even kind of ticked through all those people in Scripture, and how women experience this and that. I mean, what you're describing is loss, difficulty, trauma.

It's universal.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It might have a different label for everybody, but it's universal, the feelings. And one of them that you even mentioned very specifically was rejection. Okay.

And in your book, you write about rejection. And I think it's interesting because you say that God can use rejection as protection.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or redirection. Okay.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Explain what that looks like.

Tammy Trent: Oh my goodness. So for me, uh, rejection, protection to redirection. So those are good.

I think we've all faced rejection. I think we're all going to continue to face rejection. But I think for me, even in that chapter, was how can I give people the tools?

How can we actually have some moments to pause, to reflect, to journal some things that have affected your life, maybe some rejection either in your past or that you're facing now. That's one big thing I do throughout the book. Like, let's take some moments to think about this.

I'll even ignite some questions and some thoughts in case people feel stuck and like, I don't even know where to start.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: I'll help them go back and revisit and, and like dig up a little bit because I want them to find breakthrough. I want them to find healing. I want them to find answers, and I want them to know God's presence.

So for me, rejection was always sort of based around music because I signed that record deal in '95, and I've had different deals here and there, you know, different booking agents. And, you know, one day you wake up and you no longer have a booking agent, you no longer have a record deal, and no one's told you, but somehow you found it. You know, all the things where you're like, what in the world is going on?

Or relationships where you've thought you were the best of friends, the closest of working buddies, and then all of a sudden something happens, something triggered. Then there's betrayal. Then there's abandonment.

Then there's misunderstandings, there's rejection. And sometimes you're in the middle of those moments and you're trying to figure it out and the hurt runs deep. And sometimes you will carry that into season after season after season unless you try to find God in the middle of it and find some answers.

So, for me, I can take a step back from a lot of that rejection in my life, which started beyond music. I mean, it started when I was a teenager, you know, and even I think before that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Tammy Trent: I think we all have those moments. But I think for me, once I'm able to step out of that, breathe a little bit, sometimes it has taken months or even years to get out of a situation to look back and then see the hand of God and see, oh my goodness, I can see how you protected me, Father.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: Like, your plans are always good. They're always good. Man's plans aren't always good for us, but God's plans are good.

So, he will redeem, he will restore. So, if you stay in it, you try to find him, You will ultimately find God's protection even wrapped around rejection in your life. And then in that protection, in time, when he saw that I was ready, I think as I processed through a lot of things, I could see him redirecting.

So I'll take you in that chapter through a personal story to give you, I think, a moment to go, okay, I believe her.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Tammy Trent: I think I'll lean in now and listen because I think, okay, I get, I get where she's coming from. I can totally connect and resonate with her vulnerability, her honesty. I don't wrap a bow around any of it.

I put it all out there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: But then I'll align it with a biblical story. And that's the one for me about Joseph. I mean, he faced a lot of rejection from his own family that threw him into a pit, sold him into slavery, false accusations, imprisonment, and forgotten is what he felt.

And I think so many of us can feel that way too, when we go through rejection and feeling totally forgotten and deeply hurt. But even every wound had the potential in even Joseph's life to make him bitter. But Joseph chose to trust God through it all.

And I think that's the thing for me with preparation, preparing me for something greater. If I trust God, there's, there's always going to be redemption in it. God redeemed every painful chapter in Joseph's life, and he's done it for me too, using the very wounds that could have destroyed my life.

He used it for good, and He prepared me through some of this rejection in my life. He prepared me and He used it, prepared me for my calling and my position. And it's exactly where He wants to meet other people as well.

Like, you can't just give up. God's got more. He always has more.

He always has better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Gosh. And because I've watched your life, I -- what would be called maybe, or experienced as rejection in your life.

I can't imagine any different story for you because of how the Lord has used it in your life and used it for others. And that's the thing too, Tammy, because God is a redeemer, He redeems every sorrow, every heartache. So it's not just, well, I love Tammy so much, I'm going to work this out for her good.

But no, I'm going to work it out through her for others' good also.

Tammy Trent: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, that gives us such deep sense of purpose. But, and I, and I think we need that too, because -- so in your story, my story with blindness, many who are listening right now, they got their stories, right? And loss, I always describe it as a sentence that does not end with a period.

It ends with an ellipsis. You know what I mean? Like, it doesn't end is the point.

It just goes on and on, and it's hard, and it takes endurance. Mm-hmm. And I have seen endurance in your life.

So I would like to know what you think the biggest stumbling blocks to endurance are, and Then like, how can we overcome them?

Tammy Trent: Gosh, Jen, I mean, I think endurance is hard. It takes a lot of us to stay in it, to stay in a fight, to stay in purpose, to stay in wonderment, to stay in adventure, like just to stay, just to stay. Sometimes we have felt, or I have felt, and I've heard many that have said it'd just be easier for me to walk away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right.

Tammy Trent: Just be easier for me just to say, give up. Yeah. Just to give up because I can't take it anymore.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: I can't take the hurt. I can't take the pain. And my prayer for them at that moment too, thinking about endurance, is just stick with it, stay with it.

Pray for that encounter, that personal encounter with God, because once you have it, it transforms everything. Like, you have to endure well. And I think for me in this book, it's probably chapter 9 on endurance and finishing well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: And it's probably, Jen, one of my favorite chapters. Honestly, I'm so glad I saved the best for last. It's one of my One of my personal stories in, in this chapter is one of the most hilarious stories I've ever told about an experience that I had on learning to endure in the Spartan Race that I had to take part in with 2 of my other girlfriends.

And it was enormous challenges and obstacles and running and throwing darts and arrows and leaping around things and climbing up you know, cargo-netted 20-foot walls. I mean, swimming under dunk tanks and not knowing if you'd come up on the other side. It was unbelievable.

And I was scared out of my mind, and I wanted to back out and thought, there's no way I can do this. No way. But the story goes on to tell you different moments and also how God kept speaking to me with all these different obstacles.

And He would keep showing up when I was like, I can't do it. And then my friends, the community, doing life together. that would pull me over an obstacle or cheer me on, all the things to the very end of jumping over this fire just to get to the other side. And sometimes we have to in life jump over a fire to get to the other side.

Sometimes we have to go through the fire to get to the other side. And endurance is messy. Endurance is muddy.

Endurance is exhausting.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Tammy Trent: It's hard, but the rewards to finish well. Greater than anything we will ever hear this side of heaven when we see Jesus face to face and he says, well done.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh yeah.

Tammy Trent: You did it. You did it, Jen. You, you carried every bit of this and you did it the best you could.

And he says, you did it well, Tammy. You did it well. It wasn't perfect, but you did it well.

Why? Because you stayed. You endured.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: And I think that to me, as I align it with the life of Paul and everything he went through, you know, he was one of the greatest missionaries the world had ever known. The transformation of his life was unbelievable. That encounter that he had with Jesus, that changed everything.

But he endured a lot of suffering. He endured persecution, imprisonment, beatings, shipwrecks. I mean, it went on.

The countless setbacks in his life, as you know, many of us probably know. But I also wrote these stories for those that don't know the details. You know, I write it very cinematically in this book to like bring these—

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Tammy Trent: Pages to life. But through it all, God strengthened his faith, providing everything that he needed to overcome and to endure. And I think that's the story of endurance.

If God did it for Paul, he'll do it for you. If he did it then, he'll do it now. He's not a God who disappears.

He's a God who draws near. He's not a God who abandons. He's actually God that draws near, and he's near to the brokenhearted, and he's He saves those whose spirits have been crushed.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think the thing about endurance, Tammy, that we miss is that it should be hard. It feels hard because it is hard. And so, what you just described is hard, and there's not an easy formula to make something that is inherently hard not hard.

And so, therefore, you're surrounded by your community who cheers you on. Paul is exercising faith, and that faith fuels the endurance, and then he has the endurance to have more faith. It's just— quitting is never an option.

And I'm so glad, my sister, uh, that you haven't. And so we'll get to our—

Tammy Trent: It's not been easy, Jen. As you know, it's not been easy. I mean, there's days I'm like, I, I just— I'm out.

I'm out today. And I, I weep on my couch. I mean, just the other day— every day, Jen, I feel like I've got something, some little thing around the house that if Trent were here, he, he could do it and I wouldn't have to do it.

But I've got to try to figure it out, and I'm muddy, I'm dirty, I'm sweaty, I'm— my wrists are hurting because I don't have enough strength to turn this or to pull that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Absolutely.

Tammy Trent: And I just, you know, and I'm— I'll fall to the ground and weep. I'm kind of like, I wear my heart on my sleeve kind of girl. And I'm just like, God, why?

Like, why? Why so much? I don't need another challenge.

I don't need another test. I'm tired. Where are you?

Like, I'm tired of this. And I can't help but to think that many people have asked that same question. Many people are carrying the same kind of stuff where they just want— they want to know that they know that they know.

And so, for me, Jen, I was like, I've got to write a book, not just about those moments because they're all real, but how can I write moments to help them in each chapter to slow down and to create moments of a personal encounter that they can now have with God?

God, how can I guide them? Not just to read, but to reflect on their own journey, just like I do with mine every day, but to talk with God and consider how each truth, God meets them, each heartache, each disappointment, he will meet them right there. And it's— he's going to walk them into little places of peace and clarity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Tammy Trent: And I'll hold their hand the whole way through, but so does God. He's such a real God. And I think my whole thing was, I've got to show them— anybody reading this book, I've got to be able to lead them and guide them in the best way that I can.

So, when they close this book, Jen, they go, man, I just— I didn't know I was gonna find the answer that I needed, but I think I did. And I think for me, the answer for me, Jen—

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Tammy Trent: Through endurance, through rejection, through cancer scares, through unmet expectation, through loss, through trauma and shame. was that God was the God who saw me. He's a God who still sees me. He's a God who uses my wounds to fulfill his greater purpose.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: He's the God who gives strength to endure. He's the God whose delays have purpose in your life. He's the God who draws near, not away, when you reach for him in faith.

He's a God who walks beside you through it all, even When everything in you wants to quit, he is the God who redeems, and he is the God who restores and is still working in your life today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah, he is. All right, Tammy, I know that God is going to fulfill that desire of why you wrote the book, because I got to read it and I've endorsed it, and it is a companionship for the one who has a question And the one who maybe just needs a friend to walk with while they're walking through something.

So, so let's suppose you're able to sit at coffee with someone right now, and you're handing them your book and saying, here, let this be part of your journey.

But before I say goodbye, this is your last question, Demi. I want you to imagine that you just reach over and you hold their hand just like God has held yours. What would you say to them right now who are— they're asking the question, where are you now, God?

What would you say?

Tammy Trent: Every one of us will eventually ask, if you haven't already, will ask, where are you now, God? In the middle of my pain, my heartache, my disappointment, my unmet expectations. I don't know what you're going through right now, but it's just seeing you in this coffee shop.

I felt led to come over and just give you this book because God loves you more than you could ever imagine. And I don't know where your faith level is today. I don't know if you're trusting God for something or if you just kind of gave up on trust.

I don't know what promises broke you, but I just felt led to come over here and give you this book because the question isn't if you'll ask it. It's when you'll ask it. So my prayer today for you as I give you this book is that it will help you discover what I learned myself, that God has never left and he'll never leave you.

Even when you can't see him, he's already at work in your life right now.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, that was some good insight. And can we be honest? It's not like Tammy said, if you will ask, it is when you will ask, because we all have those moments when we ask those hard questions.

But the answer to the, where are you now, God, is always the same. He's with you. He is with you.

He's never left you and he never will. But you know, Tammy made it clear that the main thing is that if you never ask him, You may never get the answer. So ask, because he's with you. Ask him. He's with you. He is near.

I'm telling you, good stuff, wasn't it? So you need to go to the show notes so that you can get her book, you can read a transcript. And you know what?

I'm also going to have a link there to some of my books and Bible studies, because I also dive into these hard questions. In fact, one of the books is called God Is Just Not Fair. Sometime I will unpack that title for you.

But I deal with 6 big questions of faith. And we've all got 'em. So, maybe that'll also be a blessing to you, too.

All right, my friend. I hope that until next week, you just enjoy your people, your days, the Lord, his presence, and maybe even, maybe even a pumpkin spice. But just keep thinking, keep growing, my friend.

I'll see you next week.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: Developing Emotional Endurance with Leslie M. Bosserman

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Leslie M. Bosserman: Whatever that circumstance is, feeling a little bit of that emotional friction, that stress, that tension actually fuels our performance and our ability to become better until it tips us over a point where we kind of cascade down and cannot emotionally recover.

So one of the skills that I teach in emotional endurance is how to expand your inner capacity to handle what's hard, to use your stress to your advantage, And actually limit the stress that's not helpful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, hey, hey, welcome to The Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is Jennifer. I'm so glad you're here.

You've gathered with me because this is where thoughtful people come to grow. And today, my friend, it is all about emotional endurance. And today, my guest, Leslie Bosserman, is going to share with you the mindset and the skills that you need to face the hard things.

Coming out stronger, wiser, and more grounded. Doesn't that sound good? Now, here's the thing.

She's using psychology and scripture. She has developed this framework for building resilience. Oh, you are about to get practical tools to help you develop your emotional muscles.

I need that. You need that. So, I'm really glad you're here.

I hope you've had a good week. It's been a really great week for me. You probably already have figured out, 'cause I've put a little social media out, I have been in Greece and Turkey and having a wonderful time, learning so much, and just now getting a little jet lag as I'm ending.

But anyway, that's why I need a little endurance today, of the real kind. But I always need emotional endurance. And let's be honest, of course we do.

You got your stuff. I got my stuff. We all got our stuff.

Many of you know that I'm blind. So just the ordinary things in life take a lot of endurance. And it's not just the physicality of doing the hard things, y'all.

It's the emotional mindset that tells us we can do it and we're not gonna quit. And on those hard days for me, when I think I just can't do another thing, you know what I tell myself? Jennifer, You have agency.

You can quit. You can quit whenever you want, but don't quit today. Quit tomorrow.

And it's amazing how if I just give myself a little time and choose to endure a little longer, and I keep putting off quitting another day, I never quit. So maybe that's something you can think about as you begin to listen to Leslie. Now, she's a new friend.

She founded Lead with Intention, where she coaches and trains people on the science of emotional Emotional Endurance. And that's the book that we're going to talk about today, Emotional Endurance. She happens to be from Northern California, and she's a mom of 3 little people.

Talk about needing a little endurance. So let's grow together. Here we go.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Leslie, your book title caught me, Emotional Endurance, because I, I just was so curious about the title because it's also this invitation, because I'm like, yes, I want that.

And then the more I thought about it, I thought, well, what exactly is it? Okay, so I want us to start with that. What is emotional endurance, and is it different from resilience?

Are they the same things? So let's start with an understanding of what emotional endurance is.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Absolutely. So this is a question I get a lot, and it's one I actually had to sit with and pray with, because when I When I started teaching and training and coaching on the science of emotional endurance about 15 years ago, there's so many synergistic qualities that resilience plays into. So the framework for emotional endurance includes resilience, but it doesn't stop there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: It can kind of start there, it extends it. And so when I took this meta construct of developing your emotional endurance, so throughout your whole life, we define it as a dynamic inner capacity to grow and overcome hard things. There's a much more succinct definition in the book.

But if you think about inside your body and your life, you have so much capacity to grow, overcome, change, persevere. You are not stuck in your circumstances. You are not defined by your trauma.

And all those things matter. So when we practice emotional endurance, there are skills that we can learn fueled by the faith and the truth in the Bible that will allow us to grow this inner capacity throughout our life. Resilience is one part of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is really interesting to me. And so our audience are faith-based. These are Christian people who are listening. So talk to us why this emotional endurance, and not just resilience, not just stopping at resilience, why does that matter when it comes to our faith?

Leslie M. Bosserman: Oh, so good. So I actually started writing this book for a more mainstream audience. And I was praying over it, because I do coaching and training and speaking for a number of different organizations as an entrepreneur.

And God And the Lord just knocked on my heart and said, this is my message, and it's going to be used to help believers and also those who might have drifted or fallen away from faith to come back with a level of commitment. And when I think about emotional endurance as a practice, anyone can practice it. You don't have to be a believer to practice it.

And we were intentionally designed by our Creator to embody it and to continue living it. And so the spiritual purpose and our eternal hope is so fueled into everything I believe and everything I wrote about. And if without that kind of taproot in the whole tree of emotional endurance, or the plant of emotional endurance, it's hard to grow beyond that. And it's all about growth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, and, and I love that because I'm all about growth. So, that's part of the reason I was so attracted to this. So, as I'm thinking about Emotional endurance.

Okay, then here's kind of where I, I pause, because how can somebody, Leslie, grow in emotional endurance if they're not emotionally aware? And so then how do you become emotionally aware?

Leslie M. Bosserman: So I'll just put a caveat here. My book is only 208 pages. I'll cover everything that you'll need to know about this topic.

And There are so many experts on emotional self-awareness. That's a concept I absolutely bring into the intro and the first principle. So it might help to just briefly go over the framework for emotional endurance.

So yeah, let's do that. Yeah, I look at it as 6 core principles. So principle 1 is called fortitude to fail. Two is resilience to rise. Three is hope to heal. Four is courage to change. Five is energy to engage. And 6 is purpose to persevere.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: So with those 6 principles, I introduce 3 skills per principle. So 18 skills total that teach you how to practice this. So it's super practical, like, and you don't have to have any level of expertise.

There's no starting line for practicing emotional endurance except exactly where you are right now. No qualification to begin except a willingness to learn. And so, in that first principle, going back to your question, I focus a lot on understanding emotional self-awareness, so your feelings aren't continually hijacking your thoughts and your behaviors and your habits that turn into your character.

So I create a framework for how God designed us to be emotionally feeling beings, and how he also told us to take every thought captive, right? And so when we tie in scripture with science, It just proves the Bible is truer than ever. And so what I love about how this book has come about, because writing and editing is a whole process in itself.

I originally had submitted something that was probably twice as long. And so you're getting the best of the best, we'll just say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Leslie M. Bosserman: I also am a super busy mom of 3 young kids and entrepreneur. So I knew from an audience perspective, whether whatever stage of life you're in, whether you're a grandma, taking care of all your grandkids and just trying to find a minute to yourself, or you're also a busy parent or someone who is doing 2 jobs, being able to have something that you can pick up and read for 3 to 5 minutes and gain something from that you can then put into action is super important to me. So you don't have to read it in order. That's the other kind of secret I tell people.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's helpful.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Yeah, you can pick it up and, and get something from it, but really understanding who you were designed to be in the eyes of our Creator, as someone with emotions, and that just because you're feeling something doesn't mean it defines you fully. I say that emotions are— they're messengers, not marching orders.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: And so, they teach us things about ourselves, but we don't have to follow them like a sergeant in an army. We can figure out what to do with them to actually fuel our resilience and our perseverance.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's so good. And they do feel like they are the general in our life giving us marching orders because they're so powerful. And so that's really a good distinction to make.

And I love that too, Leslie. What a warm invitation. You're saying you don't have to have a full emotional awareness to start.

And I think the beauty is you will grow. Sometimes we act our ways into feelings. Sometimes we feel our ways into action. I know it can happen either way.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I love that you're just giving us something very pragmatic. That's so safe. So that's a lovely thought.

And as I'm thinking about the list you gave— and by the way, I want us to go into some of those, um, in a minute, of those 6. But as I'm thinking of them, I'm thinking of how many of those, um, have friction involved. Okay.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so for me, I, when I have recognized my life, I look at the hard things in my life and I think, you know, um, those are usually the things that I choose to make my, my buddy, my ally. I mean, they're an uneasy ally sometimes, but like stress. Instead of stress being the enemy, I try to make stress my ally.

Okay, so I'm curious, how does that hit you? And do you think we can use just any kind of challenges in our life to strengthen our sense of emotional endurance or emotional muscles?

Leslie M. Bosserman: So I'm a strong believer that God calls us to whatever we are able to handle with his support. So not without him, but when we are approached with setbacks, hardships, struggle, stress, it is an invitation to learn, to commit, and also to set healthy boundaries. So there, I was talking with another colleague about this interesting cultural dynamic, and if it's too hard, just don't do it.

I am a believer in the exact opposite of this. I strongly feel that if it's challenging, lean into it enough to understand it, to see what that next step is, or even that now step, maybe not the next step.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: But what's the now step? What's the invitation to learn just a little bit more? It doesn't mean you have to know the answer to begin.

It means you have to be willing to step in. And I use this beautiful story of when the Israelites are crossing the Red Sea. Now, the first time in Exodus 14, when Moses, he— the waters are parted, and they left, and they went into the wilderness.

And the wandering in the wilderness is sometimes how we feel. When we're being led by something that we didn't choose or didn't know about, right? But we're following, we're obedient.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Now, on the flip side, when Joshua is leading the Israelites into the Promised Land through the Jordan, the Bible actually says he had to step in the water before the waters parted. And I hold that because so often hardship feels like we have to take the first step without knowing how deep it is. Without knowing if it's going to part, but with the trust and the faith that God would not lead us to a place for failure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's so good. And it's so counterintuitive.

Leslie M. Bosserman: It's so counterintuitive, right? But that's what it challenges us to say. I am not God.

Thank God I am not God. And I can have a faith in something bigger and smarter and more powerful than me. And I have free will.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Both of those things are so amazing to me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that's so good, Leslie. That's such a good paradigm to be reminded of. And so it makes me wonder, are there just some things like some obstacles and they might be spiritual obstacles or just internal obstacles that make this hard for us, like that make emotional endurance even more challenging?

Leslie M. Bosserman: So I think it depends a lot on your temperament. So I can only speak from my lived experience, but also as an entrepreneur who works as an executive leadership coach with clients from all around the world. And I have 3 young kids. And I'm also a preschool director, which is, again—

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Wild juxtaposition, right? Because those skill sets actually dovetail quite nicely, working with young children and their parents, and also coaching. So, I look at human development as an opportunity to continually refine our character.

So, whenever I'm focusing on helping someone move from stuck to started, or face a setback with a perspective that isn't defeat, right? So we're looking at being hopeful, being optimistic, being at least willing to try. Emotional endurance is sort of the fuel that helps you get there.

It's the toolbox that allows you to pull the skill out that you need to figure out what your next step is. But one thing you mentioned, Jennifer, is stress, and I wanted to just use this as an example.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: 100 years ago, there were 2 psychologists called Yerkes and Dodson that analyzed the relationship between stress and performance. And we often find that if we feel stressed, we want to back away from something because it feels too overwhelming. But what they found actually is stress fuels positive performance, but only to a point.

And we probably have had these experiences, whether you are birthing a child in labor with a purpose, or you're playing some athletic game and you're really like focused on the field, or you're doing something creative and you're in flow, but it's hard, but you're sticking with it, right?

Whatever that circumstance is, feeling a little bit of that emotional friction, that stress, that tension actually fuels our performance and our ability to become better until it tips us over a point where we kind of cascade down and cannot emotionally recover. So one of the skills that I teach in Emotional Endurance is how to expand your inner capacity to handle what's hard, to use your stress to your advantage, and actually limit the stress that's not helpful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay, that is so practical. Right there is why 98% of us need the book, because we all live there.

Leslie M. Bosserman: And I had to live through it. I had to figure out, like, how do we actually do the hard things? And, you know, whether you're— again, I, I'm a mom who has a child with special needs.

There are times where Life is very messy and hard and absolutely not what I would have chosen. But it's beautiful and joyful and crazy. And I've made so many connections because of that.

So we look at some of the circumstances that we never chose, but we're in, and we're intentionally choosing to be in them to grow. And that's really what emotional endurance is. It's saying you might not choose where you are.

It might be something that you were born into or you experienced, yet Paul even wrote to all of the churches of the New Testament while he was in prison, right? He didn't choose that. So, we often can overcome our circumstances with a mindset of emotional endurance.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you said mindset, and I think that's where, that's where it all is. It's not about what's out there. It's about what's inside and what our mindset is and who's guiding our heart.

And as I hear Just a little snippet of your life. Preschool director, special needs child, 2 other children, coaching, teaching, all the things, girl. I think woman gotta be tired.

Okay, so Leslie, here's what I wanna know, cuz I know you address it in the book. How do you manage your energy? And because that has to impact your sense of emotional endurance.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: So tell us how you do that and how we can do that.

Leslie M. Bosserman: So I live a pretty dynamic life. I'm not saying my life should be a model for other people. It works for us, and we've designed it really intentionally based on what we're passionate about and how we feel called to serve our community.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Leslie M. Bosserman: So based on that, if you're either working 1 job, 2 jobs, 5 kids, 1 kid, 0 kids, whatever you have, like, I look at what are you able to manage with a level of engagement And fulfillment where you don't reach burnout. And so I call this margin.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Um, Dr. Richard Swenson sort of popularized this. He has a book called Margin that I read 20 years ago, and he comes up with this formula for creating positive margin.

You look at the load you have, all the things you're responsible for. Some of them are great things, some of them are obligations, some of them are really hard external circumstances. And then you look at the power, your resources, your time, Your energy, all the things that allow you to make life happen better.

And margin is your amount of power minus your load. So if you don't feel rested, or if you don't feel like you have enough— I mean, there are times where I don't get enough sleep and I'm like, I'm going to be about 70% capacity today, maybe 60, maybe less. I have to be honest with myself and scale back what is realistic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: So looking at what is possible for me based on what I have here. And then if I am, let's say my load is heavier than my power and I'm in negative margin, who's my village? Who am I asking for support? If I feel so alone in this, which I can sometimes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Leslie M. Bosserman: When you have ownership over something, you often can delegate to people, but it's yours.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: So really looking at what are the structures I put in place where I'm not the bottleneck, where things don't just rely on Leslie being at— on her A-game. And also taking a regular Sabbath rest. So, that's something I practice my entire life.

It's biblically sound. Jesus did it. It's good enough for him. It's good enough for me. So, having that time where I am— I don't want to say off because I'm still a parent. It's still—

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, sure.

Leslie M. Bosserman: A day where things happen, but it's not a day where I have to be strategically planning, book launch details or emailing. It's, it's a day of a different rhythm, a different pace, and a day to just simply abide as well and model that for our children.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's so good. Yeah, because you're right, it does model for our children. And I think Sabbath is very difficult if it's not a rhythm.

You said the rhythm. I think that's so important because we are so habitual and our brains get used to our patterns and our habits. And even maybe just to start managing one's energy.

If you don't already have some kind of Sabbath in your life, you create that. I think right there, I mean, you're right. And yet Jesus did it.

God instituted it. It is good enough for us. All right, girl.

You mentioned earlier that in your book you cover these 6 principles, and they are— I love that they're grounded in both scripture and psychology. And of course, because any truth we find in psychology, we're going to find in scripture. I mean, there's just— the Bible is brilliant.

And these 6 core principles help build our emotional endurance. And you said there's 3 tactical, um, strategies with each. Okay.

So it's super pragmatic. So I want you to just to pick one that you think either is the one that most people you serve deal with, especially women, or the one that you have dealt with the most and kind of unpack it, explain it, and give us the 3 strategies, the 3 tactical ways we can manage it.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Ooh, so good. So, I'm gonna pick one that is a little counterintuitive, if you'll play with me.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Leslie M. Bosserman: So under Principle 4, Courage to Change, skill number 10, it's titled Say Goodbye to Someday. So about 15, maybe even longer than that, 20 years ago, I sat down and I wrote an original fairy tale. And the chapter begins with this fairy tale.

I also did a TEDx talk back in 2024 and started it with this. So you can, if you want to hear me speak it, you can either listen to the audiobook, or you can listen to the really short TEDx talk. But what this whole skill focuses on is so often we get stuck in our shoulds, our coulds, and our somedays.

And I use the metaphor of the kingdom of should, the kingdom of could, and the battles they have in our mind. And then so often we just want to go on vacation. We just want to leave it all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Drop it all and go to the Someday Isle to vacation. And so that might be, someday I'll have more money and time. Someday I'll have a cleaner house. Someday I'll be able to sleep past 7 AM. You know, so you can pick your someday isle. And I, I use this as a bridge.

It's a little bit comical at first, but it's so deep because it hits at our heart. Because oftentimes, we want to just vacation on this island that feels like, oh, in the future, things will be better, rather than saying, what is our purpose in the moment? Why, why is this hard right now?

And what is less hard about it? When is it a little less hard or a little less bad? And how do you lean into that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Hmm.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Instead of waiting for reality to shift and for -- to have a fruity drink in your hand and a big sun hat and no obligations. Because hopefully that will happen at some point, but that isn't reality. And in fact, if you ask most women or most people, if you could go and live in Hawaii year-round, the idea might be tempting, but I think it would be very lonely after about 2 to 3 weeks.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Leslie M. Bosserman: Unless you have a village and a community there, right? Because we crave something, but what we actually crave is having more positive margin to have rest and renewal built into our regular routines and rhythms. Whew.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is so good. I think, oh my goodness, I think we've all fantasized about the Isle of Someday. And, and, um, listeners, we are gonna have for sure Leslie's, um, TEDx talk on the show notes so you can go straight to it.

Um, wow. That's, that's so creative. I love it.

All right, girl, we're gonna get to our last question here, Leslie. This is all been so good. I'm highly recommending the book. I'm so grateful you did the hard work of writing it and editing it down so that we can actually consume it.

Leslie M. Bosserman: That was actually harder than writing it, I think. But, you know, it's all about refinement, right? That's the growth goal.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is. You're so right. No, if people haven't written, I don't think they realize how hard editing is compared to writing.

But that's what makes it shine. So I'm so grateful for the hard work. All right, So the Jennifer Rothschild Show is the place where thoughtful people come to grow. So my last question to you is, what is one practice in your life that has helped you grow or that is helping you grow that you could share with our listeners?

Leslie M. Bosserman: So when I think about this whole framework of growth, I think the biggest thing that has helped me grow is staying curious. And I grew up in a fairly critical space where curiosity had moments to flourish, but I felt this constant pressure to perform and to overcome and to be better. And in my 20s, I had to unpack a lot of that when I finally went to college and kind of moved out.

And that's probably what helped me develop my own emotional endurance. I joke that in my 20s, I learned the skills that I taught in my 30s to other people and then wrote about now in my 40s. But being curious and having the ability when something doesn't go your way or something isn't working or you're just waiting, instead of jumping to this critical, resentful, ugly space, has been my number one thing that has helped me grow.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh my, there was so much here. You know what I really loved? That principle of saying goodbye to someday.

We need to do that, don't we? We need to just get unstuck from the should and from the could and just live your someday today. Just do the thing.

And you know what else? I thought it was such a great reminder that feelings are not marching orders. Oh, 'cause my friend, don't they feel like it sometimes?

They just feel like they're just bossing us around. But our feelings, they are not marching orders. They are messengers.

And so pay attention. What are they saying to you? What are they— what are they pointing out in your life?

Like, listen to the message, but don't let them be the boss of you. So no matter where this message has met you today, my friends, step into the water, as Leslie said, before—it parts. God is not going to lead you into failure.

All right, you know you can find what you need at the show notes. So, I want you to go to the show notes, whatever platform you're listening right now, and that's where you will find her book, Emotional Endurance. We're gonna have it there.

Plus, she has provided us some free downloads, which is so generous. They'll just get you started. And I will have a link also.

You remember she mentioned her TEDx talk? I'll have a link to that also so that you can check it out. Plus, I thought I would have one more thing there.

I've written a book called Me, Myself, and Lies, which I think will also help you with this, is what to say when you talk to yourself. Because sometimes we just have to be mindful of what's in our thought closet and how to get it cleaned out so that we're not weighed down with a bunch of junk. So lots of resources for you today.

Aren't you glad you came? I'm so glad you came. Would you share this episode with somebody who you know needs it?

Ask them to join us, because this is really where thoughtful people come to grow. And you know, if you've been listening to me for a while, this is a refresh. We were known as the 413 Podcast, and now it's the Jennifer Rothschild Show.

But I really, really, really, really— hear that? Really, really want to know what you think. So would you please leave a review?

I am happy for some constructive feedback, because my goal really— it might be called the Jennifer Rothschild Show, but my goal— Is to help you grow. is to serve you. I mean it. I want this to work for us.

I want it to be a conversation that works for all of us. So please leave a review. Let me know what you're feeling, what you're thinking.

And first of all, I must say this, whatever your thoughts are, I'm just grateful you're sharing them with me because I really want this podcast to be the place where thoughtful people come to grow. So thanks for being with me. Way to grow. See you next week.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: What if You Prayed the Same Prayer Every Day? with Matt Smallbone

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Matt Smallbone: This phrase stood out to me that had been hiding in plain sight, which was the phrase that a kind of a reluctant or a not very good pray-er needed to see. Jesus literally says that, tells the disciples, "This then is how you should pray."

And I realized, you know what, I've never actually tried praying the Jesus way. I've done almost everything else, committed my entire life to trying to live out the teachings from the Sermon on the Mount as best as I can, but I'd never actually tried praying the way Jesus told us to pray.

So I said, you know what, I'm gonna give it a year and see what we can learn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, welcome everybody. I'm so glad you're here at the Jennifer Rothschild Show. You know why you're here? Because this is where thoughtful people come to grow.

And oh, today we're talking about something good because it deals with one of our biggest struggles. You know what that is?

Prayer. I don't know about you, but I have those questions. Am I doing it right? Am I doing it enough? And is God even listening? You know what I'm talking about.

In fact, I know you know because the podcast that was titled The 4:13— anytime, anytime I did a podcast on prayer, it was our highest downloads. So I know this is going to meet you where you are today.

Well, today we are going to hear that author and pastor Matt Smallbone, well, he's dealt with the same struggles and questions, and he did something radical.

You're not gonna believe this, but he prayed the Lord's Prayer every single day for an entire year. Yes, he's gonna tell you how it turned out, how it changed his life, and what he learned that you can even apply today to help you grow. And also, Oh, it's going to get even better because worship leader, musician, songwriter, my friend Michael O'Brien, he's going to sing the Lord's Prayer over us.

It's going to be a really good day. So I'm so glad you choise to join— you choise— I'm so glad you chose to join us here. Now listen, let me tell you something about prayer that I learned early on.

It's not so much how you do it, it's just that you do it. And so there was this little boy who used to come to our house all the time because his mama worked here, and he was a sweet little thing. I guess he was maybe 4 years old, and he was just learning how to pray.

And so, like, we'd sit down for lunch, you know, we'd all tell God thank you for our food. And so he would put his hands together under his chin, he squint his eyes closed as tight as possible. And so this particular day, you know, we asked, hey, do you want to pray, Parker?

Do you want to say the blessing yourself? And he reluctantly finally decides to pray, and he starts, "Dear God, thank you for our food." And then he pauses because he can't remember how to land the plane and close the deal. And finally he goes, "Thank you for our food..."

"...You da man!" Instead of amen, "You da man!" I've never forgotten it because don't you know that God smiled when he heard it? And really, what a beautiful way to end. You're just saying, hey, it's yours.

You're the man. You're the one, God. And I think that's what you're gonna learn today from Matt, that prayer is about God, but it changes us and it opens this beautiful relationship.

So just in case you are not sure who Matt is, you've already heard his voice and you may go, "Oh yeah, I know that voice." Yes, he's from Australia. And Matt actually spent over a decade as a musician. He was a bass player and he played for artists like Michael W. Smith, Rebecca St. James, For King and Country. And now he is the lead pastor of the Church of the City in downtown Nashville. And he's married and he's got 4 kids and 1 rescue dog named Rosie.

So you are gonna love this conversation like I did. Now you'll know who's who because he has the Australian accent and I have the quite boring American one. So settle in and enjoy Matt Smallbone.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Matt. I'm so glad that we get to be together.

I had forgotten, you know, when I first heard your voice, I told you, oh, how much I love your accent, that you don't even have to be smart and you'll sound brilliant. So well done being born in the right place.

Matt Smallbone: You know, I, I don't think Australians think we sound that much smarter than everybody else, but it is a bit of a perk of living in the south of the United States, for sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm sure it is. It is a perk. Well, it's lovely to listen to, but I happen to know because I have reviewed what you're going to talk about Oh, this is going to be so life-giving no matter what your accent.

So I cannot wait to hear about this because your book is called The Prayer Experiment, and my understanding is that it came from you praying the Lord's Prayer for one solid year every day. So I want to know, like, what gives? Give us a backstory. What led you to do such a thing?

Matt Smallbone: Well, I am a pastor, so I'm the lead pastor of Church of the City in downtown Nashville. We got a couple congregations across the city, and I'm in the, the downtown one. We got a, a vibrant young congregation, bunch of 20 and 30-year-olds, um, figuring out life.

And, uh, we, we team teach, uh, with all of our churches across the city. We're always in the same scripture. And every now and then there's a sermon series that you have some mastery over, and, and every now and then one comes up where you've got a lot to learn.

And I will say, on January 1st, 2025, I was feeling, um, a bit of imposter syndrome because we were about to jump into 21 Days of Prayer and Fasting, which is fine, we've been doing that for years, but we're about to teach 7-week series on the Lord's Prayer. And so I've loved Jesus for, for very many years, closing in on 30 years now. But I was carrying around— just not really a secret— but I love Jesus and I'm not very good at prayer.

And I knew this. And so you got two options as a pastor. You either kind of fake it and wordsmith the heck out of your stories or something, or you kind of own it and learn alongside your congregation.

So that is what we did. So I taught the 7-week series in the Lord's Prayer. I took on the posture of a learner and this phrase stood out to me that had been hiding in plain sight, which was the phrase that a kind of a reluctant or a not very good prayer needed to see.

Jesus literally says that, tells the disciples, 'This then is how you should pray.' And I realized, you know what, I've never actually tried praying the Jesus way. I've done almost everything else, committed my entire life to trying to live out the teachings from the Sermon on the Mount as best as I can, but I'd never actually tried praying the way Jesus told us to pray.

So I said, you know what, I'm going to give it a year. And see what we can learn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so when you did this, Matt— which, may I just pause here and say, I appreciate your admission because I feel the same way. I teach scripture and prayer is hard for me. I'm not disciplined with it.

I'm one of those desperate prayers. I, I get really good at my prayer life when things get bad, but when things are well, I just— I— it's hard. It's just not— I get it. I think a lot of us do.

Matt Smallbone: I'm learning there's a lot of us who are very— we love Jesus and we're just very haphazard in our prayer life. And, you know, for most of us, unanswered prayer is a bit of a barrier. Others of us like personality-wise.

Like, I've often wondered whether I just don't have the right personality to be good at prayer, because every now and then in my line of work someone suggests maybe a silent retreat might be the answer, and I'm just like, oh, I'm just not— I'm just not wired for that stuff.

So my, my prayer life as a pastor has been these fits and spurts of like trying to get up at 4 AM and pray for a couple of hours, and I can pull it off for 2 days, and then I just kind of, you know, give up, despondent. So I think there's a lot of us out there, is what I've learned since writing this book, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think I think that's super important that we're acknowledging that right up front, because that means this is a very welcome conversation for all of us. Because even those who are really quote unquote good at prayer, and I'm using that phrase so loosely, we still need this because there's so much more. When you think about that, Jesus says, this is the deal, this is how you pray.

Okay, then we want to understand that better. But I'm curious for you personally, so knowing that maybe your relationship with prayer was a little haphazard or difficult, How did praying the Lord's Prayer every day for a whole year impact your prayer life and your perception of prayer?

Matt Smallbone: Yeah, well, the surprise twist was it kind of realigned everything for me. So I now have this great conversational relationship with God that I was missing. I realized I was coming to prayer really like I think most of us Westerners do, with a very hyper-individualistic mindset, that my job is to try and convince God to do stuff for me the way I want him to do stuff for me.

And that's a recipe for disappointment for sure. So I've I've really learned that my relationship with Jesus has moved from being lived almost entirely in my head and through social justice as well with my hands, but it's really moved my heart that I have this kind of really close friendship with God now. But what has really changed is it gave me the right framework for praying.

I've prayed every framework, read every prayer book that isn't on the Lord's Prayer, uh, it turns out, and there's just something about the way— it's only that Jesus understands the human soul and knows the process that we need to go through when interfacing with the God of the universe. It's just changed a lot about my hard, but it's also been just kind of so rewarding because I've relearned actually what prayer is, is meant to be and what it, what it isn't meant to be.

Jennifer Rothschild: And how kind that Jesus would tell his disciples and us, okay, so when you pray, this is what you say. I mean, that's a gift. That's a gift to repeat those words.

And then we're going to unpack more of that, what that actually— how that began to be fleshed out in your life. But you mentioned something already that I kind of want to— I think we need to address, because you talked about barriers.

Matt Smallbone: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So obviously a lot of do. And so I'm curious if you, in your studying prayer, maybe with your congregation, you discerned what maybe some of the most typical ones are. But, but even like, it might be easier to see them in someone else's life, but how do we identify them in our own lives and then overcome them?

Matt Smallbone: Yeah, so I mean, I think it's an honest conversation of, of— you start with like, why, why is prayer so difficult for me? So for me, I've named a couple of things already, like I don't really have this easily, naturally contemplative art to me. Like, I, I like to fill my life with noise and fun and busyness rather than silence.

And that is a barrier. That's a legitimate barrier. Sometimes I've wondered over the years where I'm afraid to be left alone with my own thoughts for too long because I— sometimes it tends to get dark when that happens.

Um, I think unanswered prayer is a massive barrier for most people. As I was writing this book, I realized that I really stopped praying after a miscarriage. And so I went through a season.

I was a touring bass player, we're living in the United States at this point, and we're doing a West Coast tour. And we live in Nashville, Tennessee, and the West Coast tours, you're always away for a couple of weeks. And my wife was at home looking after 3 little boys, and we just found out we were pregnant.

And while I was on the West Coast and unable to get home, playing worship music nonetheless, Mary miscarried. And I had my phone on silent in the hotel room, and it was just this like, you've got to be kidding me, God, I've given my life to serving you. What is the deal?

And so I threw up some pretty hectic, impassioned prayers as we were losing this baby on different sides of the country. And at that point, I think I just became very pragmatic in my faith. Like, I, I do believe that— I never stopped believing that God is good, that Jesus is kind, and wants what's the best for me.

I also have this— believed in and still do— the theological concept of sovereignty, which is that God can do all things. And so I just kind of got a bit pragmatic about it and went, listen, if God's not gonna do what I ask on the real important things like this, I ultimately do trust that he's good. Well, I think I might just stop asking for things.

And so that was— it was kind of a— and there was really several years after that where, uh, to say that my prayer life was haphazard would probably be a real overstatement. It was— it was just really, really just stopped at that point. So for a lot of people, I think the unanswered prayers and coming to God with these things that we think are really important and they don't turn out the way we want them to in that moment. I think that's a big barrier for a lot of people as we get older and the disappointments stack up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I agree. Well, and I, I think too sometimes that's my own self-protection because I don't want God to disappoint me. And sometimes it's trying to protect him.

Okay, God, I don't want you to look bad. So if, if I'm gonna pray for something and you don't answer, at least it's going to be between you and me, right? It's so complicated.

And you mentioned the word sovereignty, and So that would be another thing that sometimes for me is a barrier, and I'm curious your take on it. Well, if God is sovereign and he knows, what the heck am I going to be asking for and trying to change his mind? He is immutable.

So I get kind of confused with the whole doctrine of God sometimes with prayer. Talk to me about that. How do you manage that?

Matt Smallbone: Well, it's very complicated, and I would just want to say that what I'm about to say, I may disagree with 5 years from now when we're listening back on this.

Like, this is a— This is definitely a journey, and it's very nuanced, and it just— I think we'll be thinking about these things for the rest of our lives. Yeah, I do think that I am grateful for almost all of the unanswered prayers that have happened in my life, probably with the exception of this miscarriage.

But when you think about all the things you pray for when you're younger, like I, I mentioned this in the book, if all of my prayers had been answered as a child, I'd currently be divorced from Madonna and working at a circus, you know. It's like those some things I prayed about with a lot of passion as a fourth grader, you know. So I, I think we, we spent a lot of time praying for things that aren't, quote, in Jesus' name.

And that's an important part of it. Jesus talks a lot about the things we pray for in Jesus' name he will do. Like, the Gospel of John is full of that.

It was also really frustrating to read all that stuff after we lost this baby. But the whole in Jesus' name thing was never meant to be a magic incantation that you, you throw on the edge— on the end of a prayer to kind of, you know, coerce God into doing stuff. That was actually how the pagans prayed, and Jesus said, don't pray like that.

And so that's— that was a big part of it for me. Like, just a lot of the things I've prayed for in my life, and I think this accounts for probably 99% of my disappointment in prayer, are things that actually weren't good for me. And in Jesus' name actually means aligned with the nature of God.

And there's a— you know, I pray for stuff all the time that I think I need today or tomorrow that just ultimately wouldn't be the best thing for me. It's— I think a lot of my prayer life is, is a bit like a 3-year-old demanding Red Bull from their parents. And, and you just can't believe— I think that's the price of doing business with a higher power and being invited into conversations, you know. It's like we're— we are literally toddlers coming to this fully formed, bright, brilliant being.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Matt Smallbone: And we're demanding Red Bull before bed and getting disappointed. So I, I think that accounts for almost all of it. There's 1% that's a real mystery to me.

I will just say that I have found peace 15 years later, past this, um, you know, post this. But for anyone who's gone through miscarriage, I'm very aware I don't want to say anything trite or easy because it's, you know, there's a number of couples in our church right now going through miscarriage, and it is, it's, it's an absolute tragedy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it is. And yes, and it's not something— it's, it's one of those difficult sentences in life that doesn't have a period. It's an ellipsis.

You just process it differently as you age in every season. Yeah, I'm curious though, Matt, because what you're describing here, this whole in Jesus' name thing— I love you mentioning it's not like our superpower, yet there is power obviously in the name of Jesus. And I also appreciate the nuanced way you present this, and, and it's important for us to listen with grace because, yeah, we're all in process.

And, and, but here's one thing that, that I keep going back to. So let's say a lot of our listeners, some may be in a church tradition where they do liturgies all the time, like that is so normal to them, they read prayers. A lot of them are not, and they're doing the O Holy Spirit, come down, Holy Ghost, all that kind of stuff.

Okay, so do you risk— if you are praying the Lord's Prayer every day, how do you risk it not becoming a formula? Because for what you just said, it increased your heart relationship with Jesus.

Matt Smallbone: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how do you manage that balance?

Matt Smallbone: Yeah, so I use it as a framework. I went into this whole experiment going, I'm gonna try and figure out how to make this work for my personality. So I banned myself from getting up at 4 AM and praying for 2 hours at a time.

I was gonna do that. And then what I learned along the way is the Lord's Prayer really is a framework for all of your prayers. It's one prayer.

I still haven't come across a situation in my life in the last 18 months where the Lord's Prayer hasn't been everything that I've needed it to be. So what I do is I use it as a framework. The Lord's Prayer is in two halves.

The first half, which we all miss, is direct— prayer is meant to begin directed at God. And then the second half has a human, has an us focus more so than a me focus, by the way. And there's a lot to that.

But there are 6 movements in the Lord's Prayer. And so what I do is I just pray each movement like it's in in the book of prayer, and then I pray what I got after that. So I mostly pray reacting to a situation that's going on in my life.

So if I'm worried about one of my kids, I'll start with our Father who is, who is close. Our Father who is in the heavens is the literal translation, and a lot of theologians have caught that that is also translated as in the air. You know, it's a God who is as close as the air around me.

Uh, holy is your name, I revere you. So I'll start with that. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.

I'll say, God, I just admit you're close right now, and I know you're my kid's father and you're my father, and I know you care for all of us. And I just ask that you would be the good father that I need in this situation. And I just want to say I respect you and I'm wanting to hear from you today.

And then you move on to the next bit, uh, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And then you just go, God, I'm about to ask you for something very specific for my kid, but I said I submit my will to yours. I want the way the kingdom that you are king of and the rules in your kingdom, I want them to be true in my life.

And I ultimately, I'm going to ask you for something very specific here in about 10 seconds, but I submit my will to yours, and I pray that your will will be done because I acknowledge that you're brighter, bigger, and can see the full picture better than I can. And so really, it's, you know, my favorite language is— I'm borrowing from my friend John Tyson, Church in City, New York. He uses the phrase, pray what you got.

And so I just kind of read the prayer, you know, well, I've got it memorized by now, actually, because the 5-year-old. That's part of the genius. But you do the bit and then you, you throw in your own words.

And I pray this— well, I actually prayed this prayer several times a day and still do. I didn't stop after the year. Um, and it's anywhere between 2 minutes and, I mean, 10 minutes probably is about as long as it goes. And just kind of hit it at different parts of the day.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. It's beautiful because, yes, calling it a framework— that, I love it. It's like you've just, just described, here's the architecture you know, the architecture of my prayer.

But dude, I decorate it like according to my personality. And, and that's important because I think what happens to us is we think there's one way, there's a formula. In fact, I'll tell you this, um, prayer podcasts are always our highest downloads, and I think it's because deep down we think we are like not doing it right, or there is just one way, one formula, and then we haven't figured it out yet.

So talk to us about that. Is there really just one way, or are we failing if we're doing it a certain way. I—

Matt Smallbone: Well, what also stood out to me when I'm teaching this prayer series to my, to my congregation is that there is actually two ways not to pray. So Jesus is very clear about that before he jumps in the Lord's Prayer. He says, don't pray like Pharisees, um, and you don't pray like pagans.

And so the Pharisees kind of— I think to, to do the hermeneutical work to bring it to 2026 is, is a bit like kind of praying for praying a spiritual TED Talk in front of a room so that everyone's looking at you thinking you're really smart. So don't do that. What a challenge that is for a preacher, by the way, you know, because it feels like that's part of the job.

Um, and, and then don't pray like a pagan, which is use all these kind of babbling words and just try and get the phrases right so that you can kind of turn God into a cosmic vending machine to get your way. So God says don't pray like that. I don't think there's just one way to pray.

I do think though you've got to pay attention to— if you've never tried it. Jesus literally says, this then is how you should pray. And I don't know how to get around that.

Literally, Jesus said it. So what, what's brilliant about the prayer is the movements. You start with adoration, then you submit your will before you ask for anything, and then you ask for daily bread, and you get really specific about what you think you need, uh, for that day.

But it doesn't stop there. Then Jesus says, every time you should pray. And this is— this was the— this was the greatest benefit for me in this, this whole experiment, is that do several times a day now.

I forgive people. I ask God to forgive me of something that has happened in the last couple of hours, and then I also forgive someone else for something that has happened in the last couple of hours. And Jesus says you should do that every time you pray.

But Jesus really, when you get beneath his teachings on forgiveness, really teaches it should be regular and unlimited. And I've never really approached forgiveness that way. It was kind of like when I was weighed down with enough unforgiveness, I'd forgive the easiest person just so I could, I could stand up a little straighter.

So you forgive every day, and then there's this whole bit about deliver us from evil. As a good Methodist, we never did spiritual warfare in my prayers ever. It was not— I was naturally not— never actually drawn to that.

But now every day I'm like, God, I know there's a target on my back, and would you, would you protect my children? There is, there's just some genius about the scaffold of this prayer that covers. So what I will say is, of course, you can pray in the other You've got to find a way to do gratitude, by the way.

I got in a bit of a— got a bit of a funk where it's not obvious where gratitude fits in in this prayer. But there is something beautiful about saying— and it's actually in the first line, is probably the best place to do it— hallowed be your name, thank you for all the good things. There's something beautiful.

What I did miss is my prayers always began with like, God, thank you for today, thank you for my family. I missed that bit for a little bit, and I think that that's an important part of it here.

But again, I haven't had any situation in the last 18 months where this hasn't been really the perfect framework that has helped me more completely pray through a situation because normally I would just ask God for stuff and be disappointed when I didn't get my way. And now it's like, man, you go from that to asking for forgiveness and forgiving somebody, jumping into spiritual warfare.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Matt Smallbone: Asking God not— don't allow this thing to break me. It's just a more complete way. And I think us Westerners left on our own, we just— again, we just pray for the very specific thing that we want our way. And this prayer, this prayer just breaks all of that apart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh man, there's so many things. I would, I would love to ask you, and I'm so glad you've written the book because I know I personally want to dive deep. Because even that concept of forgiveness, frequently, every time you pray— you're not convinced God answers prayer, pray that every day.

Forgive me, help me to forgive those who have messed up with me. I mean, wow, God's ready to answer. Okay, but, uh, there's so many things, like I said, but I'm gonna have to get to our last question just because of time.

So I am recommending the book so highly. Okay, no, I do have to ask you one more question before the last. Okay, I just do.

There's not a lot of eye language in the Lord's Prayer. And when you mention that about us Westerners, it's me, my four, and no more usually when we pray. So how did praying the Lord's Prayer and that sense of communal, um, petition impact you?

Matt Smallbone: I think, you know, our Catholic brothers and sisters all don't call it the Lord's Prayer, they call it the Our Father. And I think they're on to something because that opening phrase just frames up the whole thing beautifully. It's a reminder that in this prayer we're not only children children.

We can't just only child our way in our relationship with our Heavenly Father, and we don't always get what we want because there's other kids around here as well. So our Father is really important, and, and it really frames this up as a community prayer. But also, give us today our daily bread.

So you're also praying that your neighbors— you know, the pronouns really matter— give us our daily bread. You're praying that your neighbors and the people in your community will have enough as as well. So, I mean, I, I only prayed 1/6 of the way Jesus told us to pray. It turns out I'm a genius at asking God for stuff, but other than that, I was just missing some really important parts to what it means to have a really robust and thorough conversation with the Creator of the universe.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so inspiring. This is going to be a gift, and, and I appreciate— he is our Father, and we are brothers and sisters, and we need to come before him as that kind of family caring about each other. All right, this is our last question though, Matt.

We're gonna get to it here. All right, what What advice do you have? And obviously your advice is going to be based on what the Bible says.

To that person who's listened to all this, they're inspired, maybe even a little convicted, but they're like, dude, I am so reluctant because I'm just so bad at this. So like, what advice do you have to the person who feels like they're just a poor or reluctant prayer?

Matt Smallbone: Well, I would say if you do want to pray, just commit to getting that one thing right. Don't add in a bunch of other stuff as well. If you're going to try and get good at prayer, it's not also the right time to, you know, start trying to Sabbath properly every Saturday.

I have found for me at least, and for anyone wired like me, I need to do a spiritual practice until it fills me with joy and I want to do it. And that doesn't usually happen in the first few times for me. I think of it like, do you have any crazy CrossFit friends who just love getting up at 4 AM to lift heavy things?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes! I don't understand—

Matt Smallbone: Now, what I've realized— well, what I've realized is they're not built differently than you and me. They've just got through the initial discomfort and they legitimately love it because of the community and they love how they feel because of it. They're not doing it because it makes them as miserable as it makes you and me if we were to do it once a year.

It's actually become part of who they are and they've seen the benefit of it. So I just say, I would give yourself a month, give yourself 2 months, make it work with your schedule. Especially, listen, any stay-at-home parent or anyone with kids under the age of 2 or 3, you've just got on your stage of discipleship that you're in, and there's certain things you're not going to be able to do.

I love that story of John and Charles Wesley's mom in the kitchen. Do you know that one where she just covered her head with the tea towel and she said, "When the tea towel's over my head, I'm praying. Leave me alone."

Like, "Don't come to me." That's, that's one of the most baller things of all time. And I think that's really what it is. Make this work around your lifestyle.

It's best to create some quiet space. Jesus does say go to a room and close the door. That's the best way to do this.

But also he Jesus was kind of essentially homeless for much of his ministry as well, so he didn't actually have a room with a door most of the time. So I would just say give it— add this one thing in. I'd recommend praying through the Lord's Prayer if you've never done it before, remembering that this is Jesus legitimately said, this is actually how you should pray.

And do it until it brings you joy and you want to keep doing it. And just release yourself from adding in any new kind of spiritual practice until it fills you with joy.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know about you, but I was so inspired by that, right? So many seeds for thought. Let's try it.

I mean, just see what the Lord calls you to do. Would you be open to praying the Lord's Prayer every day? You don't have to commit to a whole year, but just try it for a week.

Try praying it several times a day, maybe with each meal. Just start small. Don't forget what Matt suggested.

We don't join the Olympics until we've run around the block a couple times. So be patient with yourself, just try it. And when you do pray it, remember you're using the Lord's Prayer as a framework, not a formula.

And by the way, if you wanna go a little deeper, I just realized I'm part of a Bible study called When You Pray with several other of your favorite Lifeway authors like Jen Wilkin and Kristi McLelland and Kelly Minter, Jackie Hill Perry. Y'all, it is so good. But we talk about the different prayers in the Bible.

That might help you also feel a little less intimidated about prayer, if that's a thing for you, it's going to help you. So there's so much available for prayer, and of course everything you're going to need is going to be on the show notes. So check them out, especially check out Matt's book on the show notes.

All right, now it's time to actually pray together, and our dear brother Michael O'Brien is going to lead us in the Lord's Prayer. So, Michael, let's pray.

Michael O'Brien: Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. In heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom, In the power, in the glory, forever. Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: Uncomplicating Adult Children Relationships with Dr. Kathy Koch

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Dr. Kathy Koch: It's hard, but comment on what's going well. I'm a former educator, even a former professor, and I can tell you that a parent or a student who only shared the negative with me was much harder to listen to than a parent or a student who shared affirmation and then also had correction. So I just, human nature is, man, here she comes again with that red pen.

So look for what's going well and trust them to God, right? Like, don't put your hope in your kids to raise your grandkids. Put your hope in God and ask that he would break through any barrier, that he would speak clearly to them about his ways and his will and his wisdom.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome to the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow, and that includes you. So I'm so glad you're here today, 'cause today we're talking about relationships.

With adult children. We're gonna hear from an expert, Dr. Kathy Koch, and she's gonna touch on like how to resolve conflict, how to manage boundaries, and really importantly, how to develop friendships between parents and adult kids. So you might be a parent of an adult child, or maybe you're the adult child and you wanna learn about your relationship with your parent. Listen, this is good for all of us because can we be honest?

No one told us that this kind of relationships could be complicated or hard or even painful sometimes. But oh, my friend, there is hope and there is help. So settle in and get comfy because we're going to learn about this today.

I'm glad you chose to be here. And you may know that this is new. This is the second an episode of the Jennifer Rothschild Show.

And I get it, you may not have been here last week, or you have been a part of the 4:13 Podcast for the last 7 years and you're wondering what's happening. So I'll just remind you, it is the same great content of the 4:13 Podcast. We just made some changes.

We've changed the name, we've got a new sound as you heard, we got a new look, we just rearranged a couple of things. So that means all the things you love, like the great content, there's just the family vibe that we've got around here. KC All of us are still going to be around, just things are a little rearranged.

So today we're going to hear from an expert and she's going to be talking about adult relationships. Now it's been a good week around here for me because not only are we talking about the book on adult relationships by Dr. Kathy Koch, but I've got a new book and I just needed to give you a quick shout out and tell you about it. It is called Heaven for Today.

It's a devotional on heaven, and you can find it to purchase it or to learn more about it at heavendevo.com or at the Jennifer Rothschild Show podcast. But y'all, it is gonna be just a beautiful gift to you to help you live heaven now. The promises of heaven, they're not just for tomorrow, they are for right now, and they're gonna boost you, give you hope, give you an eternal perspective.

It's all new material, mostly new material if you've done the Heaven Bible study. It's a gift to you from my heart. So I hope you'll check it out because I'm just super thankful for it.

It's not only inspiring content, but it's a beautiful presentation also. So, okay, but speaking of books, we're not going to be talking about heaven. We're going to talk about adult children today.

Now, it used to be simpler when they were little. Remember, remember that, you parents? Remember how simple it used to be?

Well, I've got a reminder for you because my husband, Phil, he was driving with some grandkids in the vehicle. We've got several, and this time John Robert was 4 years old.

He's in the back seat, and I just want you to hear how simple and delightful this was. So sit in the front seat with my honey, Dr. Phil, and listen to his conversation with one of our grandsons, little Johnny.

Phil Rothschild: The boys were telling me, and specifically John— Johnny was telling me that— what's his name?

John Robert: Jesse

Phil Rothschild: Jesse can whistle even though he's 4. That's pretty amazing. And then Johnny said he can whistle a kind of too. Go ahead, Johnny.

John Robert: [Makes high pitched sound]

Phil Rothschild: That's his whistle. I like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, they do grow up and things can get a little wonky sometimes. So that's why Dr. Kathy is with us today. Let me tell you who she is.

She is an incredible author and she is the founder of Celebrate Kids, where she trains parents to love well, lead wisely, trust God deeply, and genuinely enjoy their kids no matter what age they are. She lives in Fort Worth, Texas, and she has written 9 books, including the one we're talking today, which is titled Resolve Conflict and Find Peace with Adult Children. Mm, good stuff.

So let's settle in and listen to Dr. Kathy Koch.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Dr. Kathy, I told you off mic that I am sorry to say this is a really relevant topic that we need to talk about today. And I actually am sorry to say it's relevant, but I'm grateful we're talking about it because I have adult kids and I have friends with adult kids.

And unfortunately, I hear way too often, you know, that their hearts are broken, their relationship with their kids are strained, and, and Well, I would just put it this way, like their adult kids have unfriended them, you know what I'm saying? So what gives?

Can you give us an understanding? Why is this seeming to be epidemic proportions right now?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for having me on the show. I've admired you for years, so I'm excited to be here. And I agree with you, I wish we didn't have to talk about this, but you know, praise God that he shares his insights, and, and here we are.

Um, you know, there are adult children who are remembering the past badly. They are being told by therapists, counselors, social media followers, or people they're following you know, that, oh, that couldn't have possibly happened that way.

So they're beginning to believe a lie, which is really, really sad, um, you know, giving up on parents, parents who were imperfectly perfect for them, who they now are exaggerating the faults about. So that's a big problem and really sad.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, big time sad. And I, and I'm seeing it.

In fact, I was just talking with somebody who's another author who has a book coming out on this, and he's looking at it from a pastoral perspective on helping the parents because he's seeing it as such an epidemic. He even said he thinks this youth, which is I think what you have referred to He calls them over-therapized or something like that.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, because they've just gotten perhaps bad counsel about their past.

Dr. Kathy Koch: That's a really good point, Jennifer. And another thing that's happened is that what we— what I'm seeing in the research and our— my process here is that many young people who were helicoptered as children have distanced themselves from their parents because they don't think their moms can parent any other way. So it's preventative for people who are listening who don't yet have a problem, like, praise God.

And if you start to back away now and let them transition into adulthood and into some freedom, then perhaps they're going to stay with you as they become older adults. If you've helicoptered and you overmanaged and you overcontrolled, they don't want that now. Now they want to grow up.

Now they need to grow up, and they don't think you can do it differently. So maybe you apologize and say, man, I understand now how my direction might have come across as disrespectful. That's not what I meant, but I'm going to learn to kind of back away and, and share less frequently if that's what you need.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay, that's good. See, that's good advice, and we're going to get to some more of that. So, because I just— oh, I just see this is so relevant.

Okay, so one of the things you say, Dr. Kathy, that I appreciated— so obviously parents, I'm a parent, I'm always going to be a parent, right? But you say that parent is my noun, okay? And children, our kids, are always going to be our kids.

But you write that parents of adult children cannot use parent as a verb unless they're invited. Okay. Oh, I love it. Unpack it.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Hey, thanks for loving that. That's cool. Yeah, again, they don't want advice, instruction, control, management. They want support, guidance, help, friendship. Hopefully that's going to happen as we continue to walk with them. So yeah, you're not a parent verb unless they ask.

If they say, you know, Dad, I'm struggling in my job, I know you had a season where you were really struggling with your boss. How did you end up deciding what to do? Like if they ask you, praise God, and then share with them, you know, succinctly what happened.

If they don't ask, but you observe it, make yourself available. Praise, certainly. Look for teachable moments, but keep your mouth shut and simply walk with them and look for opportunities to be a coach, a cheerleader, a mentor, a guide, a support system, and wait to be invited into the conversation.

If you don't, it sounds like criticism when you do, and it's unsolicited, and it's not gonna be heard well. But it's hard. It's so hard, Jennifer. Because if you've been always giving your input, then it's hard, but I'm asking you to believe that this might be a game changer for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you said the word earlier, disrespectful. They are, you know, I'm a mom of young men, and I mean, early on I was like, "Lord, help me to never do anything that would come across emasculating to them." I happen to be blind too, so one of my things was, "Help me to raise them in such a way that I don't make them think they have to rescue every woman."

Like, you know, "Lord, help me to be strong and independent." because I want them to have healthy relationships with women, not swoop in and try to be the fixer. And I realized how important it was for them to feel respected early on.

I don't think we realize that sometimes as parents. So give us a little bit of tangible advice here. So let's say there's a mama going, uh-oh, um, I'm a parent of adult children, and yeah, listen, Willis, I can tell they're not doing it right, you know, like they need my advice, but I'm gonna try to be the noun, not the verb.

How do they coach? Like, how can they enter into relationship and still have coaching without blurring the are being disrespectful?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right, such a good question. Again, I think we ask for permission to share. We observe and we say, man, I've noticed a few things.

Are you interested in my input? If not, hey, that's okay. And then it has to be okay, like, if they say, hey, not yet, because ultimately, don't we want them to figure it out?

Don't we want them to launch well and be independent? Like, I want them to be dependent and independent at the same time, right? God ordained the family before he ordained the church, so the family is super relevant.

I don't want them to ever, you know, totally walk away, but I also don't want them to need you when they're 45. What are they gonna do when you're gone? So I think we ask for permission, we indicate we've got something to share, are you interested?

And you know what else, Jennifer? We have to understand that different isn't always bad. Different is different.

And we have to understand that culture's different now, schooling is different, nutrition is viewed as being different, et cetera, et cetera. So maybe we ask some questions. Maybe we say, man, you are doing it differently.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Can you help me understand why? And we avoid things like, "We didn't raise you this way." Oh my goodness, like, they know you didn't raise them that way.

And we don't have to say every time we see them, "Are you gonna go to church tomorrow?" They know that we want them to go to church. So again, we look for opportunities to speak up.

Hey, you know what? Our story doesn't lie. So we say things like, "Man, could I tell you about church the other day? It was amazing. Like the most vibrant service ever. The way that they honored mothers was the best I think I've ever seen.

And I've been to probably 46 Mother's Day services, you know?" So we share about our experiences hoping that they're going to want to know. No, they're going— they will want to know more as they respect us. But we, again, we're careful in those situations. I hope that comes across okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, that comes across great, because what I hear you saying is we're relating to them almost like peer-to-peer, adult-to-adult. Because I would not go to my neighbor and say, you should go to church, or why do you feed your children that? You know, that would not be my place.

So that's a really good paradigm to think about. Um, okay. So here's the thing that I see also though.

You mentioned the family is the most important, and before the church, God ordained the family. And so then our kids grow up and they marry and they're beginning a family.

And a lot of parents freak out over this and things get very confusing. So can you give us an idea of kind of like what you see most and tell us how parents can adapt to their children being married, especially if it's something they're not super comfy with?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right, that's so good. So let's pray early on for our children and potential spouses, right? Like I hear from parents all the time that they're praying for their child's spouse.

And then I say, are you praying for your child? Like, are you praying for your child to be ready for a spouse? Are you praying that they're ready for marriage?

Are you praying that they'll be humble and patient and properly submissive and properly, you know, as properly leading and following, et cetera, et cetera. And then, you know, when they marry, let's understand too that we don't fall in love overnight. So be patient with yourself.

Hopefully your children have married good partners and they share the faith and they share values. If not, of course, that's sad. You have a right to your sadness, and please grieve.

I have a whole chapter on grief. Grieve the loss of expectations, dreams, potential values, et cetera. Walk in and talk things out, but be careful, of course.

Choose to fall in love with the spouse. Choose to look for the good, not just the bad. I kinda joke about carrying around a green pen and not a red pen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right? Like, look for what's good, not just for what's wrong, bad, or different. And then get to know the in-laws, get to know the sisters and brothers of the spouse, get to know nieces and nephews.

Like, if you spend Christmas, Easter, Mother's Day, whatever together, July 4th picnic, choose to get to know the family members you don't know well yet. You know, tell me about your background, or what are some of your favorite family memories? You know, how important has faith been to you?

And get to know them, because that's respectful. And then hopefully from there you won't be, you know, looking badly on the next family conversation that you're going to have to have.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's a really good word. And basically you're also saying get outside yourself, don't make it all about you. Oh yeah, are they relating to me?

Um, I will say, and gosh, I know this is tender territory, so, um, I hope I don't misstep, but I have observed, um, with moms as they age. There are some moms who literally have an expectation of their adult children that is a little bit— I'm not sure based in reality as I would understand reality. Like, they expect their children are going to call them every day or every week. They don't -- they don't reach out to them. They expect to be served, called.

What they want for dinner is what everyone has every holiday. You know, talk to us who may be moms What is our right heart posture with our children?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh yeah, let's go to some hard places, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Well, you know, biblically we want them to cleave to their spouse, correct? We want them, like, especially if you have a son, like, you know, you've got these men that you've raised with your husband, praise God. You want them to seek the wife's counsel.

You want them to vent to a wife appropriately. You want them to say to a wife, "Man, I'm just conflicted about," "Help me make my next decision." If they continue to come to a mom or a dad instead of a spouse, that's not healthy.

If they choose a spouse and one or two parents, because parents have been proven to be, you know, good advisors, good teachers, they've got shared values and they're good sounding boards, you know, I think that's great. But man, I think one of the things I say in the book is if a child comes to you and vents or is asking for input, I would love for you to say first, Have you talked with Joni about this? You know, have you talked with Jason?

Like, let's not take the place of the spouse. And again, I write in the book, Jennifer, like, we miss our kids. Of course you miss your kids.

You used to be with them all the time. So again, grieve that and understand it's going to change. If you don't understand that and you hold on too tight, they will resist that.

It will not be respectful and they will run. And frankly, I don't blame them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. You know what it reminds me of back in junior high, the poster on my wall, "If you love something, let it go." You know?

But it's true. You gotta love 'em enough to lose, um, the, the level of relationship you might have had. But it's different, it just changes. Okay.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, uh, Dr. Kathy, here's, um, interesting because— so let's say we're okay with the spouse, everything's cool, kumbaya, Thanksgiving, but then they have children and we are watching these children we raise now parents, and we're like, what in the world, they are screwing up these grandkids, or they're not doing it right. Okay, we're not real happy So what do we do as adult parents?

Dr. Kathy Koch: This is so challenging. Again, we have a right to opinions. We have a right to even beliefs. Let's understand though, they're not our children. First thing I have to say here, they're not your children. They're your grandchildren.

And one of the things I heard over and over again in my interviews was the adult children who said, "Man, they disrespect. They walk into my house, they start cleaning without asking." and they come in and they question decisions we're making for the kids.

Like, why are they eating that? Why are they still up? Are you allowing him to game? Like, have you checked the quality of that literature? What about your school choice? Like, again, you know, they're not your kids.

And so what you're wanting is what, a cookie-cutter replication? But they're not your kids. So we're created in God's image, not ours. We're different. Let's understand that different is different. It might not be bad.

Let's get to know what they're doing. But seriously, if I heard it once, I heard it 1,000 times. They're not my children's parents, they're my children's grandparents.

And I want you to be grand. I want you to be a grand partner. I want you to be available. I want you to sing over them. I want you to be your grandchildren's cheerleaders. I want you to be your children's cheerleaders.

I want you to walk in again, like I said, and look for something that's going well, and then stay available. Like, Lord willing, they haven't separated from you yet, and you're available so that if they have crisis, they call you and you say, "Mom, you know, do you have any input, any advice, any instruction about what's going on?" And then you've earned the right to speak up because you haven't over-parented them or even tried to grandparent the kids.

I think, again, it's hard, but comment on what's going well. I'm a former educator, even a former professor, and I can tell you that a parent or a student who only shared the negative with me was much harder to listen to. Than a parent or a student who shared affirmation and then also had correction.

So I just, human nature is, man, here she comes again with that red pen. So look for what's going well and trust them to God, right? Like don't put your hope in your kids to raise your grandkids, put your hope in God and ask that he would break through any barrier, that he would speak clearly to them about his ways and his will and his wisdom.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, Dr. Kathy, you're good at this. You— the Lord has gifted you. I mean, the whole green pen is a good visual.

I want to be grand as a grandparent. That is— I mean, that's magnanimous. That's bigger than little. I mean, that's good. All that is a really good image. I love that.

And so most of our listeners are believers in Christ. And the other thing I hear from people— thankfully it's not my story at this moment— but there's a lot of parents whose adult kids have walked away from their faith.

So their hearts are broken, they're freaking out. What would you say to them?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Certainly first, I'm sad with you. Again, you have a right to your disappointment, even maybe some anger and fear. Don't parent from fear.

That's not biblical or healthy. Process your anger, process your grief. Recognize that most parents, I wonder if you'll agree with this, Jennifer, I think most parents look back with today's wisdom and judge themselves very harshly, and that's not healthy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Dr. Kathy Koch: So since you raised your children, how many Bible studies have you gone to, podcasts have you heard, prayers have you prayed, sermons have you listened to, et cetera, et cetera? So you're thinking, man, why didn't I do this better? Why didn't I know this?

I've had people say, you know, why didn't I have your book 10 years ago? Well, you didn't have your book. I only wrote it a month ago, you know? So, you know, but you have it now. And so we look forward with hope. We don't look back with big regrets.

We pray that someone will introduce them back into the culture of church and into a relationship with Christ. It might not be you. If you think it has to be you that wins them back to Christ or back to the church, that's idol worship of yourself.

And I don't say that lightly. It might not be you. Can you pray that a coach in the summer league would be a Christian?

Can you coach that a new hire where your son works would be a believer? Can you pray that they would stumble across a neighbor who's active in a nearby church and invites them and they say yes? And I can tell you stories of where that's happened.

So I think we're careful of looking back, we look forward, we pray for others to engage. We look for small growth. Look for small growth.

Friends of mine had a nephew who showed up for a Good Friday service. Of all services on Easter weekend, he chose Good Friday. And he loved it, and he stayed around and talked afterwards.

And he showed up for Easter and he stayed for lunch. And they hadn't done anything from a Christian perspective with him in, I think it was 11 years. And he just showed up.

And so pray and celebrate and expect it because God is good, and remember God loves them more than you do. I could talk, you know, as you know, there's a whole chapter on that. It's hard.

Pray and grieve. Get yourself surrounded by like-minded people. Don't live this alone.

Don't be in isolation. Be careful of the gossip prayer chain. A lot of the adult kids think that prayer is gossip, so be careful who you share with.

But don't live in isolation that you have a kid who has left the faith. Make sure you have somebody that you can share with, perhaps even a pastor or a small group leader would pray with you on a regular basis. That's going to comfort and encourage you big time.

Jennifer Rothschild: As I hear you talk too, I think sometimes too parents are ashamed, like, "How did I screw this up?" Or, or they're ashamed because they internalize what they consider failure, or they think it looks badly upon themselves if their children aren't in church. And neither one of those are worthy. Neither one.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, totally, my friend. That's one of the things that I camp on often, whether I'm doing live speaking or in books that I write. It can't be about you. Many of us have been guilty of parenting so that we look good.

And I had an adult recently at a conference I did, this was so frightening, Jennifer. You know what she said to me? She picked up my book and she said, "I'm tired of being responsible for my mom's joy."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh my goodness.

Dr. Kathy Koch: She had felt, and I don't say that lightly, and I'm not, I don't want any listener to feel as they heard that, don't go to that shame and blame place. Go forward with hope. But this is, if you have idolized them and over-parented them and they were afraid to make mistakes for fear that you would look bad, that is a reality here.

And we just have to do that. Now, you can't go back and parent, so it's really stressful, and I realize that. But you can change forward and you can even apologize and say, "Man, I have a new revelation.

I realize that." You know, you're fragile and weak. Now, be careful of how you say that, but you know, you've even indicated that you feel weak, and I wonder if that's partly my fault because I didn't let you grow through the valleys.

Man, I've gotta grow up and change that. I trust you to walk out of valleys. You are mature and you're a wise thinker and you're creative, and man, I've diminished your possibilities by making it about me, and I'm disappointed in myself. Would you please give me another chance? That would be amazing if they would hear that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and I will say, I would think right there, that is humble, honest communication that we should receive from anyone. And I know there's lots of extra baggage that comes.

Like, I was even in a conversation with, with a parent once, and my husband overheard. He goes, why are you so upset? That was no big deal.

I said, oh no, you did not hear 70 years worth of things that I have heard, or have, you know, 50 years. But the point is, we have to take it, that present moment, and receive it humbly and speak it humbly based on the present moment, not throw all baggage from all our former mistakes into it, because it's not fair to either of us.

Dr. Kathy Koch: So that is so good. You know, Jennifer, if the mom or dad says it but it's not received, they still said it and owned it, and it's good for their heart and their spirit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Good word, Dr. Kathy.

Okay, so I was going to ask you about any communication hacks with our adult kids. You've given us a couple, but I think what would be even more helpful— are there some things that like we as parents should never Like, just don't say that to your child, your adult child.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Well, yeah, you know, "I told you so," or, "We raised you better than this." I think that's a really dangerous phrase. Understand that there's much that's influencing them now, and so you don't have to remind them of that.

It's, again, it's not about you, it's about them moving forward. I would say, not in direct answer to your question, but I would say listen to understand versus listen to judge, correct, and reply. Listen to understand, which means you say things like, hey, keep talking, I'd like to understand more about this.

Because the more that they tell you, the greater the likelihood that the first thing you say will be relevant. And now they're going to keep listening to you. So listen longer to understand, not to judge, correct, or reply.

And also, Jennifer, what about you statements versus I statements, right? So we say things like, you know, I'm disappointed when I don't hear from you. Especially when you tell me that you'll reach out.

Like you told me you'd let me know about the doctor's appointment. So I was expecting that you'd follow through and you didn't. I'm disappointed when you don't follow through versus you didn't tell me what happened at the doctor's office, right?

So that you statement sounds much more judgmental, much more pointed. And I know you wanna say it, you know, but for, and I actually joke in the book, like practice in front of the mirror, you know, I feel disappointed or I am sad when you don't follow through. Again, you have a right to your emotions.

But don't, you know, don't use it as a damaging kind of pointing finger to your kids who are older, who need your respect. But you have a right— again, how many times have I said it— you have a right here.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it's good you keep saying it because I appreciate the balance, because I think a parent could just assume all the guilt, say, okay, I blew it then, now I'm blowing it now, and I'm sure any problem with my adult child is my fault, which is untrue, okay? They can screw up too and be in sin. They are dirty rotten sinners just like we are.

So, you know, we can all mess up. So I do think that's important for us as parents, not to just assume it's always our fault, our responsibility, for the relationship issue. But we have the responsibility to respond in godliness no matter what.

And so, amen. I have a friend whose adult child— okay, so most of us who have, might have this issue, Dr. Kathy, are just like, it's kind of just messed up. Maybe it's fuzzy communication or awkward conflict or whatever.

But then there's some, like my friend, whose adult daughter has she cut her off when she got married. She cut off her mama when she got married.

My friend has never even met her grandchildren. Okay, what are some of the reasons in your experience that adult children literally just cut off ties with their parents?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Sadly, the new spouse can be very influential there. I just want to shake them, man. How rude of anyone to want a spouse to reject family of origin.

That's just— especially if they are believers, that's just ridiculous. Yeah, um, I think it's, it's fear. It's control.

You know, I, I want my values, I want my way or the highway. I don't want Dad and Mom to still be influential. So again, it's control, it's a wrong view of submission and leadership.

Certainly I would go there. Scared daughters who don't know how to speak up and stand up for themselves are probably a part of that action as well. Social media, whoever they're following that we don't even know they're following, that is, you know, these people are explaining you've got to view it this way, you're not viewing it correctly, and fall into that trap.

If they've been on social media their entire teen life, they think social media is the end-all and that those people know them better than even their parents. So I think it's easier for them to fall away. Now, again, there could be parents who were critical quickly, that were controlling, that maybe didn't love easily the spouse, and the husband is afraid of that and is judgmental toward that and says, man, you know, they don't, they don't like me, let's separate.

And he didn't give them a chance to get to like and then love them. And so It's just sad. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what does— no matter what the reason for the cut, what does an adult parent do? What can they do?

Dr. Kathy Koch: You grieve, and I mean it. You have to accept what is. You grieve what isn't. You reject the lies. You embrace the truth, and you work on what you can. You accept what is, and you say it.

Radical acceptance. I accept the reality that my son-in-law and daughter currently don't want to have anything to do with me. You say it out loud.

It's hard, but it's radical acceptance. It doesn't make it right, but you need to know what is going on that is true because you need to stop pushing on the door. Man, that's hard to say.

But to keep going to the door and knocking, it's not good for your heart, your spirit. And it just shows them that they're right to separate because you're acting like that maybe a toddler who wants another cookie, if you will. So be really careful of that.

So accept what isn't, grieve what is, reject the lies. You didn't do everything wrong. You might've done something wrong, but you didn't do everything wrong.

Embrace the truth. You know, God loves them more than I do. And another thing that I think we do, Jennifer, is we step into all the other roles we have.

I don't say this lightly. I know that you want to maintain your parenting, and we've already said here that you need to turn into a guide, coach, cheerleader, support system. You don't parent in the same way.

You've known that all along, I hope. And you've always, you've always released them from training wheels to a bike with no training wheels that's bigger, and then hand brakes. You've always released them. And driver's license, you've always released them. So this isn't something new. The season feels new, but you walk into that, I think, expectantly.

And then, Jennifer, what other roles do we have, right? You're, you're a spouse. If you're a spouse, prioritize your marriage.

It's the most important thing kids of any age need. Is a mom and a dad to have a dynamic, healthy relationship with Christ and marriage. And then celebrate the other roles you are. Are you a daughter? Are you an aunt? Are you a sister? Are you a choir member? Are you a volunteer in the church youth program? You know, helping your neighbor out who had knee surgery, you're gonna garden for her 'cause she loves her garden and she's upset she can't weed her garden.

Like, look at all the other possibilities. And I'm gonna say one more thing, Jennifer, and the audience can take it or leave it, but I know that in our churches there are many adult children who have no one to support them. Either their parents are deceased, or their parents aren't in the faith, or their parents have abandoned them.

I know of many children in the grandchildren age who would love to have an older woman or an older guy come to a piano recital or come to a Christian school grandparent day because, again, their grandparents aren't available to them. And you and I know that's not the same as pouring out love on family, but all this love that you have that God's given you, I don't want you to just hoard it and not use it because you can't use it on the one person that you think you have to use it on, but there's all these other people.

I hope that comes across right. Our churches are full of broken people that we can love well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, amen. Well, they are our larger family. And yes, just because the relationship may be cut off doesn't mean you're cut off from other relationships.

Yeah, and that's such a good word, Dr. Kathy. Listen, I am so— Oh gosh, I'm so deeply grateful. This to me feels like so intensely practical for the parent who's dealing with this kind of stuff, but also very comforting.

I mean, I think sometimes a parent might be afraid— well, I don't want to hear what I did wrong. I know I did it wrong. And what I hear you saying is, listen, let's just live where we are.

Let me comfort you in your loss, but let me give you tools to make the best of what you got going on. And I, I just so appreciate that as a sister in Christ. So I'm highly recommending the book.

I'm gonna make sure we link it on the show notes so everyone can get it. But we're going to get to our last question here, okay?

So gosh, I know this kind of conversation has really stirred up some feelings and some thoughts for some people, okay? So what would you say to the parents— and I know we got a lot of moms listening— what would you say to the mom who feels discouraged, or maybe she's frustrated, and let's be honest, she could even just be plain angry because their relationship with their adult kids is not what they thought it would be.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right. Feel the feelings. Certainly don't live in denial. Don't run from them. That's only going to make it worse. So feel the feelings, and yet don't get stuck in the feelings.

Again, look up. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but look to God to solve the problems and your needs. Turn to Scripture, personalize it, pray with your children and grandchildren's names in the verses.

Look for small growth and celebrate it. And take care of yourself, you know, take care of yourself. Sleep, eat well, be nourished in the Word of God, which of course, Jennifer, you're such a fan of, love your teaching.

We need to make sure that we understand that we are complete in Christ and not just in this one relationship, because that's what I've seen. The problem really gets big when they feel like they've lost everything, and it might feel like you have, but you haven't.

And I say that with respect and with hope, because God is a really big God who loves you more. And I would love you to turn to him.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, that was some good stuff. We're to feel the feelings, not run from those feelings, but we're also not going to get stuck there, my friends. We are going to look to God to solve the problems we face.

And I loved how Dr. Kathy encouraged us, personalize scripture. Like put the name of that person you love right there, smack dab inside that scripture verse so that you can pray it personally over that person you love. And can we be honest?

I thought it was super important that she reminded us of the importance of taking care of ourselves. Yeah, you need to take care of yourself, my friend. And remember, God loves those children of yours. He loves them more than you do, and he loves you more than you can even imagine. So rest, rest in his love. He's got your kids, he's got you, he's got all your people.

All right, my friend, I hope you have a really good week. Way to grow. See you next week.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: Courage for Ordinary People with Max Lucado

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Max Lucado: Courage is not the absence of fear, but it's more the choice of facing our fears with faith. Nobody gets through life with no fear. I mean, it's just— in fact, fear serves a healthy purpose, right?

It keeps me from picking up a rattlesnake or somebody from crossing a highway. There is a healthy fear. When we talk about courage, it's a persistent life of fear that engages very little faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey everybody, welcome. You are at the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow, and that is why you're here.

Now listen, you may have been part of the 413podcast. Well, you are still in the right place. New name, new sound, new look. Oh, but it is the same great content.

And today, I'm just telling you what a great way to start because we have bestselling author Matt Max Lucado, and he is going to offer a fresh look at the prophet Elijah. Elijah's gonna help you know how to have unswerving belief and unbreakable courage in uncertain times.

So get ready for a great day. Here we go.

Well, you are in the right place, my friend. This was the 413podcast.com, and now we have refreshed it, retitled it. It is the Jennifer Rothschild Show. It is where thoughtful people come to grow.

And did you know that is why you're here? Now, why, you may wonder, did we do a refresh on the podcast? Well, for the same reason that I did a refresh on my house this year. I love my house. I've lived in it for a long time. But you know what? Sometimes you just need an update so that you can enjoy where you live even more.

So I did some new floors, new paint, new appliances, and it's just made it so much more enjoyable to live in. Well, that's what we've done with the podcast.

We refreshed it. We love it. It's still the best place you could be, yet at the same time, we needed to update.

So you love the music, but you're going to experience a new look, a new feel, and the same great content. Now, KC, he's still going to be here from time to time, but today is a great example because, oh my friend, we have Max Lucado. Now, you love Max Lucado just like I do, and I will tell you this: the man has written so many books.

In fact, he has— okay, get ready— over 150 million in print. Yeah. And today we're talking about his latest, which is called Unbreakable Courage.

I need it, you need it, so settle in for this fantastic conversation with America's pastor. Max Lucado.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Max, it's always a delight to have you back. America's pastor, we love you around here. And it's really special for me, given that this is the first episode of the Jennifer Rothschild Show, that you get to be the guest because you mean so much to me. So thank you for doing this, and we're going to talk about your book Unbreakable Courage.

That means we are talking about courage, and we're going to hit a little bit of Elijah. But before we go to do all that, I think we need to know what courage actually is. We need a definition, Max, because sometimes we think if we're a little nervous, if we feel anxious or fearful, then we don't have courage.

So start with the definition. What is courage?

Max Lucado: Okay, absolutely. By the way, congratulations. I love the new angle on the program. I think it's a great decision. And it's so good to hear your voice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right back at you.

Max Lucado: Let's say, let's try this approach.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Max Lucado: So courage is not the absence of fear, but it's more the choice of facing our fears with faith. Nobody gets through life with no fear. I mean, it just, in fact, fear serves a healthy purpose, right?

It keeps me from picking up a rattlesnake or somebody from crossing a highway. There is a healthy fear. When we talk about courage, it's a persistent life of fear that engages very little faith.

When we talk about faith, we're talking about the existence of a living and loving God who's overseeing the universe. So courage is taking my fears to him before I take my fears out on someone else or take them out on myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh boy, that contrast is poignant because we do— I don't think we realize we're doing it. We take our fears out on someone else or we take them out on ourselves. So courage is assigning our fears to the right source, to the right place, the one who can handle it.

Okay, that's beautiful. And I think we see that picture in Elijah, which is what Unbreakable Courage centers around. Okay, so when you— someone listening may not know exactly who Elijah is, and by the way, that's with the J, my people. Because sometimes we don't know which one we're talking about. There's Elijah and there's Elijah. We're talking about the J, Elijah.

Okay, give us a character sketch. Who is the man? And just give us an idea of his story.

Max Lucado: Yeah, it's a great story. He came along in 9th century BC, which was not a good time for Israel. Their faith was weak as a nation.

They were a train about to roll off the tracks. They had gone through one evil king after another, those kings whose stories are summarized in Scripture with lines like, and he did more evil in the sight of the Lord than anyone else, and he did more evil in the sight of the Lord. You know, it's just one generation after another of evil kings, which is interesting because we're only 100 years removed from the construction of the temple in Solomon's day.

So there was a kind of a golden age of faith. It just didn't last. And so we're talking about a society that has distanced itself not only from God but attached itself to two false gods, namely Baal and Asherah.

And whether somebody remembers their names is less important than the fact that their worship of these two involved temple prostitution, and even sacrifice of children. So it's just tragic that Israel would go this far. Well, this is the world into which Elijah storms, and I use that verb on purpose.

He stormed into the world. He comes out of nowhere. We don't know anything about his upbringing.

We don't know anything about his parents. We don't know anything about his faith development. But what we do know is that when he first appears, he goes right into the throne room of, uh, of Ahab and Jezebel, the most vile of the vile, and he says, 'The, the God of Israel lives!' And that's how he enters.

So he's a whirlwind on the prairie, and he's a picture of how to live with unbreakable courage in a day when no one else has faith but you do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, how relevant is that, sadly, Max, for where we are today? And you know, I've never thought about it. You're right, he didn't come quietly. He stormed in. Talk about courage.

And so I'm wondering, since we don't know a lot about his underpinning of his life, we got to know a little bit of what must have been going on in his heart to give him that kind of courage. So in your book, I know you talk about Elijah-level prayers. Okay, so what is that?

And as you trace his story, let us know what those prayer— what Elijah-level prayer is like.

Max Lucado: Yeah, well, we can thank the Epistle of James for attaching or mentioning the prayer life of Elijah as something that's an example for all of us. James is quick to point out he was just a man like the rest of us, but when he prayed for the heavens to shut up and not rain, they, they were quiet. When he prayed for rain, rain returned.

And James uses him as an example of somebody who prays with passion. Whose Prayers Literally Changed the World. I love the discussion, Jennifer, of prayer, and it's still a mystery to me.

It still is. I mean, quite honestly, why does God care what I think? But he does.

And why would my prayers impact his actions? But they do. And to what degree do my prayers influence God?

I love discussing it. I'm just fascinated that he would even care what we think. Yeah, uh, he cared what Elijah thought, and when Elijah prayed, God responded.

There was a little boy raised from the dead because of the prayers of Elijah. There was fire from heaven that fell because of the prayers of Elijah. His story just is a reminder that as God's people, we have this high and holy privilege of interceding on behalf of the world.

Whether we understand prayer or not is second to the fact that we are called to pray. And prayer is an act of faith. Prayer is an act of obedience.

And I really believe prayer is our highest privilege. So yeah, I talk quite a bit in the book about Elijah-level prayers, being careful never to place the power of prayer in the way we pray or the person who prays. But the power of prayer is in God who hears our prayer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Max Lucado: But the prayer prayed in earnest faith, James said, is— does great things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, well, and that obviously Elijah was proof text of that. You know, it's interesting because you had just described how Elijah stormed into the throne room of Ahab and said, 'The Lord God lives.' Well, in some ways that's kind of what he did with the Lord God of the universe. He stormed into the throne room and he pleaded "make it rain, make it stop raining, raise this child." That takes courage too, Max, to trust that God is hearing and responding.

And you're right, it is a mystery that sometimes we shy away from. But yeah, to follow the example of Elijah, you know, one of the things about his life too, Elijah's life, that has always ministered to me— I've had over the years what I call Elijah episodes, okay? And you know what this is?

It's when you just have this, uh, this deep despair after you've exerted a lot of spiritual effort or even had spiritual victory Okay, so somebody might not know what I'm talking about. So give us that little picture of Elijah's life and experience. And then what?

What happened? What was the result of it?

Max Lucado: Yeah, we're going right to the heart of Elijah's story here, because to understand his downtime, you have to understand his high time. And that took place on Mount Carmel. He invited— he double-dog dared Ahab and Jezebel to have a showdown between their god and the one true God.

And that story is worth retelling 100 times over. Yeah. 850 false prophets come.

Elijah's by himself. They bring a bull. Elijah brings a bull.

They call on their false prophets to bring fire from heaven. They dance and they prance, and Elijah makes fun of them. He sits over there under a tree, arms crossed, saying, 'Is your god asleep?

Is he gone? Is he taking a nap?' He just makes fun of them. They finally give up.

They've done all their dancing and prancing and chanting, and they give up. They're exhausted. And then Elijah steps up.

He pours more water— pours more water onto the altar. And then, even before he can ask it, fire falls from heaven and consumes everything. It's, it's a stunning, powerful moment that I think probably is still being discussed by the angels today in heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Max Lucado: But as you point out, he goes from that high moment to the lowest moment of his life. He finds out that Jezebel is out to get him. And yet we would think he would respond in courage after what he just experienced.

But he's so exhausted that he runs. He goes on the run. He goes MIA.

And leaves his servant at one point, just keeps running, finally falls under a juniper tree and says, just take me, God, I'm ready to die. And he goes from one point to the other, and it's, it's a powerful picture of how depleted we can become and how fragile faith can be. It's also a picture of how God cares for us when we're depressed.

I think he was depressed. I think, I think, uh, statistically, 1 out of 3 Americans battle depression. And so this story is so practical.

I hope people will revisit it. It reminds us that God sent an angel to feed him, to give him rest. Sometimes that's what we need, it's just a good day off.

He sent word to Elijah not to stay in the cave. Sometimes that's what we need, is to get out from you know, our own little mind, and to get back in circulation.

Max Lucado: But most of all, he gave Elijah a word. He spoke to him through a still small voice. And most of all, that's what we need.

We need to know that even when we're as down as we could possibly be, that God is there with us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Such a good word. And somebody needed to hear that, because that's courage also— the courage just to listen to the word and trust and obey and be mindful that God is there and he's ministering. And wow, what a beautiful picture.

I'm grateful for that story because you're right. I mean, when you said 1 out of 3 people experience depression, that means a third of the people listening today know exactly how Elijah felt, and that means they can also know exactly how God can minister. And I'm so thankful for that.

And you know, Max, you talk about in your book something I want to explore a little more because I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about yet on this one because I haven't been able to read this part of the book. You talk about living with an expectation of divine disruption. Talk to us about what you mean by divine disruption and living with that expectation.

Max Lucado: Well, when you look at the life— thank you again for that question— that's what Elijah experienced. He would go from really major miracle to major miracle. His life is marked by being cared for by God, As ravens brought him food, as a widow in a village cared for him.

When the widow's son died, he prayed for the son and the son came to life. When Elijah prayed against the rain, the rain stopped. When Elijah prayed for the rain, the rain returned.

Now, and I'm not even mentioning his lack of death, you know, he was raptured into heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's true.

Max Lucado: But then in between these divine disruptions, there was just faithful service. Even though his life has many miracles, as just about anyone in scripture whose name is not Jesus, there were long periods of just day in and day out, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, studying, praying, walking, serving. And then there are these divine disruptions that shake everything up.

And I bring all that out, uh, Jennifer, to give people hope. That God does interrupt. He does come.

He does surprise. He does intervene. And just because it's been a long time since you sensed his, uh, fire from heaven, don't think for a second that he's not going to come.

Uh, Elijah just models day in and day out steady service, knowing that at any point something's going to happen. And Joseph is going to leave the prison and become prime minister. Or Saul's going to get knocked off his horse and become Paul.

Our God is a God who does that. He just interrupts, and we don't control it. We can't calculate for it, but we can be excited about it.

No situation is ever so dark that God cannot interrupt it and bring hope.

Jennifer Rothschild: And all the people said amen. Okay, I love it. And we need to live with that expectation.

All right, so then Here's another, something you deal with in the book that I want us to address because I think we get confused by it and we, and we don't understand it. 'Cause you had already mentioned prayer, right? And the mystery of it and why God even involves us in that.

But you talk about in the book, resting in prayer and wrestling in prayer. So on the surface, we think we know what the difference is, but tell us what the difference is and how do we know which one to apply when?

Max Lucado: Yeah, yeah, I love talking about prayer. Again, it's such a mystery to me and it's such a privilege. So yes, there are times we rest in prayer.

We're quiet, we're still. We come to God like a child comes to an Abba. It's such a comforting thing just to be quiet.

For me, that usually comes early in the morning. I'm kind of an early riser, and I have 2 or 3 places in the house depending on how cold it is or hot it is outside. I may sit indoors or outdoors, but the place doesn't matter.

But just those few moments in which I say, "Good morning, Father. Good morning. Thank you. You've got another day for me." I love starting my day there. Now, sometimes I stumble, or I mean, I don't, but my good days begin like that. And that's resting in prayer.

Wrestling in prayer is what we did last, a few nights back. When one of my dear friends who's been diagnosed with a brain tumor— we called together— I, I didn't, one of his friends assembled about 100 people and we met in a small chapel and we witnessed this man's beautiful faith. He said to all of us, he said, "I'm not afraid of cancer. I'm not afraid of dying." And it was just his powerful testimony. But then we all prayed, we cried out to the Lord, we begged God, and we're continuing to beg God. I know God has heard us.

Now, will he do what we've asked him to do? That's up to him. That's up to him.

But that's wrestling in prayer. Elijah did that. You know, when that little boy died in the village of Zarephath, he prayed not once, not twice, but three times.

When he asked for God to send rain again, he prayed not once but seven times. He stayed in a posture of prayer. And so I think there are times which, as parents, as pastors, as friends, as neighbors, we just wrestle with God.

We beg the Lord. We don't— we're not disrespectful, far from it, right? We're just being obedient. We can come before the throne of grace boldly because we have a high priest who understands.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And it is— that's where we find the help we need. Beautiful. And God be with your friend. With the friend who has cancer, in Jesus' name.

Max Lucado: Amen. And God be with all your listeners. Even as we're talking, I'm sensing that there's— Lord, let your hand touch that precious person who feels like there's no solutions, no healing, no outcome except a dark one.

Please bring hope in life. I join with them and seek to be obedient. And you know what else, Jennifer?

The Holy Spirit intercedes with words that are greater than— with groans that are greater than anything we could conjure up. So don't, don't ever think it's up to you to pray the perfect prayer, but it is up to us to bring passion in our prayers and faith in our prayers. And that, that's the calling that some people have on their lives.

That's their assignment. And God bless them, and we need them.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a worthy assignment. And yes, amen to those who are obedient to that calling. All right, I got two more questions for you, Max.

One of them, you mentioned Ahab. Ahab and Jezebel were messing with Elijah. Okay, some people don't know enough about Ahab, but we know all we really need to know: he was not a good guy and he was an enemy, in essence, of Elijah.

But in your book, you talk about how Ahab is not our enemy. So how— what do you mean by that, and how can we apply that concept.

Max Lucado: Yeah, our battle is not against flesh and blood, right? It's against the principalities and powers of this present darkness. There is a devil.

There is, there is one who aspired to have the throne of God, and he was cast down, and his time is short, and he knows it. And with all my heart, I do not think he can take Max's salvation, but I do believe he can take Max's peace. He can take my effectiveness.

He could take my testimony. He can take my joy, and he's trying to today. He take— he could— he can lead me to places if I'm not careful.

And so yeah, Ahab was the tool that the devil used, but let's remember, that's why prayer and worship and, and God's word is so important, because we do not fight with weapons that the world uses. Uh, we fight with weapons that, that are spiritual in nature. Uh, there are Jahabs, there are very evil people in the world who mean nothing but harm for us and nothing but achievement for themselves.

May God have mercy upon them. But our ultimate enemy is never making a movie or running for election or, or, or the guy down the street. Our ultimate enemy is the devil himself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Right, that is where our real struggle is. That's where we can wrestle in prayer too.

Max Lucado: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: And just ask the Lord for protection to overcome the evil one through the word of our testimony and the blood of the Lamb. And so that's where we're going to end, Max. So this, uh, podcast, we say it's where thoughtful people come to grow.

So as the last question, could you give us an indication, just an idea, what is it that helps you grow that you would recommend to our listener that would help them grow?

Max Lucado: Yeah, my answer is still in the theme of prayer. In the last year or two, I have been introduced to the whole idea of praying specific prayers like a surgical strike. I have identified there are two areas in my life, and I don't want to go public with what they are, but they're just personal areas in which I continue to struggle.

50 years as a Christian now, and And, and I still have these two dogged, uh, weaknesses, weaknesses. And, uh, and somebody suggested, well, every day identify them and take them like they themselves are an enemy, you know, march them into the presence of the Lord and point them out. And, and you know what, since I started doing that, Jennifer, I've really felt victory in those two areas.

It— rather than just pray, Lord, help me as I face temptation, or help me as I battle with this issue. I say, Lord, today I know that I will be tempted to have this thought or take that action. Please, let's go together, God.

Come, come alongside me. And I get very specific, as specific as possible. So I would encourage a person, is there some besetting sin, this habit that you just can't shake?

Then go surgical with it. Get specific. Talk to God about it. Identify it. March it into his presence. And don't just pray nebulous prayers over it. Pray specific prayers about it.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my friends, aren't you glad you are here today? Me too. I'm telling you that that was so good.

I was so encouraged. And you know what I was really encouraged about? To hear that Max Lucado, he still struggles.

And listen, my friend, admitting struggle is courageous. It's so courageous because we all struggle. So remember Max's definition of courage.

It's not the absence of fear. It is taking your fear to God instead of taking your fear out on others or taking it out on yourself. So let's expect those divine disruptions today.

God's with you, my friend, and he's gonna grow you. So if you need rest, just remember, he'll minister to you. All right, so check out Max's book.

It's called Unbreakable Courage, and it'll be at the show notes. And of course, I will always have for you a full transcript. And one more thing, can I tell you one more thing?

If you want to continue to grow, go surgical. That's what he said. You go surgical. Be very specific in prayer. March right into that throne room of grace and be specific. Ooh, I love that.

All right, my friends, I'm so glad you came. Thanks for hanging out with me on this first episode of the Jennifer Rothschild Show. You're a thoughtful person, so keep growing, my friend.

I'll see you next week.