4:13 Podcast: Wisdom From the Front Porch

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, I'm on the front porch. We're sitting in two rockers. I'm with the woman who raised me, who made me the woman I am. And it's a beautiful sunny afternoon. There's a breeze. You're going to hear the traffic every now and then, the chirping of some birds. When the wind blows, you're going to hear wind chimes.

I wish you could see this, because my mother has one of the most beautiful, artistically designed front porch, back porch, garden, because everything you do, Mom, you do with beauty.

So if y'all don't know my mother, her name is Judith Jolly. She is a Floridian -- of how many generations? What generation are you?

Judith Jolly: Five.

Jennifer Rothschild: Fifth generation Floridian. Which is pretty remarkable if you know anything about Florida.

Judith Jolly: In Florida, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So we're sitting on the front porch, Mama, and I -- now we get to hear some sirens. I guess that's real life, isn't it, everybody?

Judith Jolly: It's real life.

Jennifer Rothschild: But let me ask you this. So I'm thinking over your life. Do you mind telling our friends how old you are?

Judith Jolly: I'm very proud.

Jennifer Rothschild: You should be.

Judith Jolly: Yeah. I'm 84.

Jennifer Rothschild: Eighty-four. And you would not know it looking at her. And she could outwork you. I don't know who you are and what you do, but I can just guarantee you this woman could outrun you.

And I remember, Mom -- weren't you 78 or 79 when you did splits on the beach?

Judith Jolly: Oh, that's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Judith Jolly: I forgot about that. Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: We were on the beach together.

Judith Jolly: Yeah. That was the last time I did a split, frankly.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it was quite impressive. What a way to finish.

Judith Jolly: I was impressed. Yeah, it was a good way to finish.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So that's what I'm saying, my friends, this lady is amazing.

Okay, so you've lived 84 years. Our world has changed so much in 84 years. And we didn't get to talk about this ahead of time --

Judith Jolly: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- so you don't need to have a great answer. But I'm curious, from the time you were a little girl to the time now, you are a seasoned woman. Has there been anything in your life that you have seen as far as inventions that you feel like has just made the biggest difference either in complicating our lives or simplifying our lives?

Judith Jolly: I think it would be technology.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Judith Jolly: It was like a total absence of technology when I was growing up. We had clunky old cars, and stick shift only, and we walked different places. We did not rely on any kind of transportation. I grew up in Clearwater. The beach was I don't know how many miles away, but that's what I would do. I would walk to the beach on Saturday afternoons, and then I would walk back to town, and on occasion I would take a bus, a city bus, to get home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Judith Jolly: So I've seen the -- I've just -- the world got faster and less personal. Easier in many ways, but harder in many because it separated people and -- I just love being part of the earth, so to speak.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: And then we began to rely on vehicles and cement and new highways and shopping plazas, the predecessors of the malls of yesteryear. Even the malls are not that popular now.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, you're right.

Judith Jolly: Shopping totally changed, this whole internet shopping.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, yes.

Judith Jolly: Oh, my. Yeah. I mean, we would walk downtown to JCPenney -- that was the one department store in Clearwater --

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Judith Jolly: -- and we would buy our school clothes. And so it was simple. That was simple.

Jennifer Rothschild: Was that back in the day, too, when they had candy counters --

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- in department stores?

Judith Jolly: I love that. That was more fun. And even, Jennifer, when you came along and were a little girl, you loved the candy counters too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I remember that. I remember getting those sliced jellied fruit slices.

Judith Jolly: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you remember? Like orange, they looked like orange slices?

Judith Jolly: I know. You inherited that love from your dad.

Jennifer Rothschild: Is that what he liked?

Judith Jolly: Oh, oh, oh, he loved those. That was his favorite, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think our whole family really has an affinity for sugar in almost any form.

So that's interesting, Mom. Because what I hear you say is in some ways it simplified our lives --

Judith Jolly: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but in some ways it kind of diminished --

Judith Jolly: It's true. It took away a lot of the substance --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: -- that we created ourselves, and then we began to rely on artificial things. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you have TV when you were a little girl?

Judith Jolly: Not until I was like -- I don't know. Was it like -- I was 14 maybe.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Like, was that the late '50s or mid-'50s?

Judith Jolly: Mid. And the people behind us, the older couple, had a TV before we did. And in the evenings -- there was limited programming. It was black and white, obviously.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: And so we were permitted to go to their house, and that was -- they welcomed us. There were three of us, myself and my two sisters. And there was a program called Big Jon and Sparkie, and it was like this -- like an adventure thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

Judith Jolly: Oh, so Big Jon had a hat, a heavy hat, you know, the --

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, were these animated or were they real, like, actors?

Judith Jolly: Real. Real.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, actors.

Judith Jolly: It was like a predecessor to the one who would be my friend, whoever that was.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

Judith Jolly: Yeah. Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know what you're talking about. Barney?

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Uh-huh.

Judith Jolly: So anyway, we would get to go over there, and it was about dinnertime. It was about 5:30 when that program came on, and they would be cooking cornbread in a cast iron pan.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

Judith Jolly: And it was on their stove. They had one of those potbelly stoves with the -- you know, the tube or the whatever that went up.

Jennifer Rothschild: The big pipe? Yeah.

Judith Jolly: Uh-huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know what it's called either.

Judith Jolly: And so not only did we get to see Big Jon and Sparkie, but we got to give -- we got to receive a piece of cornbread.

Jennifer Rothschild: Was it your family or your generation that would dip cornbread in buttermilk, or was that Dad?

Judith Jolly: That was Dad.

Jennifer Rothschild: 'Cause that does not sound good to me.

Judith Jolly: I thought -- I didn't like the idea of buttermilk, period.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: But Dad loved it. My mom and dad did as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: They did?

Judith Jolly: But I never did that. But your dad, yeah. And his family, they loved it. And Dad would even crumble the butter -- crumble the cornbread and put it in the buttermilk.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Judith Jolly: Yeah, I thought that same thing. Ooh is right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So thinking of your life -- I will say this also. Last night we got to go for a walk, and I was so encouraged and, quite honestly, surprised by your community, your neighborhood. They would see you walking by, someone would come out and say hello and walk with you a few steps. And there were at one point four or five of us, and then it got down to two or three, and then we'd meet up with some more.

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Somehow you have been able to bring that sense of community and personal touch that may have been lost over this -- over the decades. You've brought it to this community.

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: If you were helping somebody know how to do that, how have you done that? Because I really -- I'm not bragging because you're my mom, but I really have observed. You really are the one who kind of initiated all that. It was very obvious.

Judith Jolly: I think that's your word, initiate.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Judith Jolly: You have to -- you have to reach out to people, and you have to be genuine and you have to want to connect and know the people and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: So when you know their children, their families, their issues they face, and they begin to share more and more as time goes by and -- if somebody thinks you really care --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: -- that's going to create the response that has made this community what it is. And it's wonderful because, you're right, as we walk, somebody will say, "Well, I gotta go now," and somebody else will pick up and walk with us. We laugh at who is the leader of the parade at any given time. And that includes dogs too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes, that does include dogs.

Judith Jolly: We have two or three. We have Wyatt and we have Harley.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Well, and I laughed too because I thought it was just a delightful picture of just who we should be as, like, the human family. I had a cane, Jim had a walker, you were holding the dog. You know, we had Les come over. Les grew up in the islands. I don't remember which one. But he has that beautiful island accent.

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All different parts of, you know, life and -- but we're all --

Judith Jolly: But we're all the same. We're all family.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Judith Jolly: We're all family. But you have to -- you have to make -- you have to take the first step.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: And people will surprise you. They will be so grateful and their response will be genuine and -- like, when we had a new family move in, I actually that afternoon, before they spent their first night, rang the doorbell. And I just simply said, "Hi. I live on the next street. I just wanted to welcome you to the neighborhood." That was the beginning of what now is one of the loveliest relationships. The little boy now is five. And they walk and I walk with them.

Jennifer Rothschild: They all call you "Jolly."

Judith Jolly: They call me "Jolly."

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so sweet.

Judith Jolly: They're sweet.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's good, Mama, for us to hear, because this generation especially --

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- they're so used to relating to each other through technology --

Judith Jolly: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that they're shy and uncomfortable doing it in person.

Judith Jolly: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what you're saying is you just initiate.

Judith Jolly: You just have to do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just do it. Just do it.

Judith Jolly: Yeah. Because I am not naturally that way, I don't -- I think I am now. But, no, I was never that way. I would be hesitant. But now I've just seen it work.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: And I love it. It's the most rewarding and wonderful experience.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's beautiful to watch.

Judith Jolly: Truly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it is, it is just so -- it reminds me of what life is supposed to be.

So I think that's really special that you have lived a lifetime, started out with just the beautifulness of the simplicity of community. You've worked through the complexity that came from the convenience --

Judith Jolly: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- right?

Judith Jolly: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then you brought it back full circle --

Judith Jolly: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to being able to experience both just for the -- the best parts of both. The best parts of technology -- 'cause can we be honest? You know, air conditioning is one of them.

Judith Jolly: Absolutely, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But then you don't isolate. You get out there with your people.

Judith Jolly: No, no, no, no. You have to.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's beautiful.

Judith Jolly: Yeah. You just have to go beyond yourself or outside of yourself and think of others. Really think of others first.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: Yeah. And it's just a wonderful thing. I love it. I love the people.

Jennifer Rothschild: They love you.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: We're back out on the porch again in the rockers, and at this time so far no sirens. I'm out here with my mom. That was such a great conversation last time, Mom. And so when we finished -- of course, the great thing about great conversations, why we should have them, they don't just answer questions and satisfy curiosity, they create more questions and they help stir up our curiosity --

Judith Jolly: True.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- right?

Judith Jolly: True, true.

Jennifer Rothschild: When we finished talking, I thought of a few more questions that I would be curious about. So to review, you're 84 years old?

Judith Jolly: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You've lived a long time. You've seen many decades. So you were born in what, '42?

Judith Jolly: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Wow. We are living in a time right now where the world events seem -- because I think of access of media, we're very aware of everything quickly. Way too quickly, right?

Judith Jolly: Exactly, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you've lived these many decades. Is there a world event -- I'm curious about -- that comes to your mind quickly that you feel like shaped you or impacted you or the world around us? You know, you got a lot to choose from, and you may not even have just one for that reason. But is there any world event that comes to mind?

Judith Jolly: I was not aware of it, obviously, but I really believe it was World War II. And my dad served in the Pacific. My mom had to move back home to her parents' home with me as a two-year-old. And it brought out the best. I mean, it was a terrible time, but it brought out the best in people. I saw loyalty and bravery, courage, patriotism --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: -- sacrifice. I saw all those things. And I believe that's where I found a lot of the foundational -- what do I want to say? The foundational parts of my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Like the values?

Judith Jolly: The values. The values, exactly. You did the right thing because it was the right thing to do. And if there was sacrifice, the reason was right and you just did it anyway. You dealt with the loss of that, and you dealt with the gratitude that came when the war ended.

I remember that. My mother drove to Jacksonville, and I was the little kid that was sitting in that old Ford in the front seat with her. We had no air conditioning. I can't remember. Was it August? But it was hot, I remember that. And so in that old Ford, the windows were down and it was hot, but we got there. She was so thrilled to see my dad, and he came running out.

And I as a child, I saw that too. I saw the fidelity and the love of family. And she had me with her, and my little sister, who was then like a baby. And we all went as -- we were together as family again. The gratitude we had, it just created something very beautiful. It taught me a lesson that I didn't know I was learning.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Because you saw it modeled, didn't you?

Judith Jolly: That's -- oh, that's exactly right. So that would be probably -- though I did not realize it was teaching me the lesson, that would be something that shaped my world.

Jennifer Rothschild: It did. It shaped that generation, didn't it?

Judith Jolly: Oh, oh so -- and truly they really were the greatest generation for those qualities.

Jennifer Rothschild: I agree with you, Mom.

And, you know, you said something in explaining that, that whatever the right -- you did something because it was the right thing to do, something like that that you said.

Judith Jolly: Yeah, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which makes me wonder, has there ever been any kind of, you know, advice that you've been given, that someone has said to you over your many years, that you feel like has -- that you still remember today? You know, that was that significant or that rings true today still?

Judith Jolly: A couple of things. But the spiritual one is love one another. It is so simple.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: But that advice from Scripture --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: -- has given my life the most meaning of all. So I'm grateful for that advice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: And then always be sure you tell the truth and you won't ever have to try to remember what it was you said last. You can really get yourself in trouble. But if you don't make something up --

Jennifer Rothschild: Then you don't have to remember the lie.

Judith Jolly: -- you don't have to remember -- that's an easy thing, but that is very true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is true.

Judith Jolly: And to see the good in people. See the good in people, and value -- value your friends and value strangers, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. You know what? I just -- last year I did this book study with some younger women, and it was a book by Dorothy Sayers, and it was called "Are Women Human?" Okay. And she was a contemporary of C.S. Lewis --

Judith Jolly: Oh, okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- so this was back in the '20s, '30s, '40s --

Judith Jolly: Yeah, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that she came of age. And her basic contention was, you know, that -- not are men and women equal, but are women human. And if so, then yes. You know, we're all -- we're all these -- created by God. And so what you were just saying reminded me of the takeaway that these young friends and I got from the book, which is all of us created in the image of God, we need to remain beautifully curious about each other --

Judith Jolly: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because each of us are part of the beautiful inheritance we have.

Judith Jolly: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's who -- you know, I mean, you're my mom, but you're still part of my inheritance.

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I get to be beautifully curious about you, and I gain from it. And that's what I hear you saying.

Judith Jolly: It's true.

Jennifer Rothschild: That you're loving and you're valuing not just the friends you have --

Judith Jolly: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but the strangers you encounter.

Judith Jolly: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: They're all part of your inheritance.

Judith Jolly: Exactly. I learned a lot of that too as I did family history research. People I never knew who lived hundreds of years before me. But I saw the qualities in their lives and I realized I had inherited those qualities as well. Maybe I had not tapped into those, but I saw -- I saw courage and resilience and love and loyalty, the ability to adapt to change even though it was hard. I learned a lot from those I never knew but who went before me and were part of who I am.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is a gift to us as your family, because we have such history now because you are quite a historian. And what our friends don't know is not only did you put that in writing, but you can remember 98% of it. It is amazing. Not only could you do splits on the beach in your late 70s, but at 84 you still remember so many details of that history. Which I think is not just because you're brilliant, I think it's because you value --

Judith Jolly: I love it. I just --

Jennifer Rothschild: -- these people. Yeah.

Judith Jolly: I do.

Jennifer Rothschild: You value them.

Judith Jolly: I can tell you their names and I can tell you when they lived and where and the history of their day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's beautiful, Mama.

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So here you are now. We all get smarter the older we get. It's just so sad that when we're young, we don't know as much as we know --

Judith Jolly: That's true.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- when we're old, right?

Judith Jolly: That's true. You are so right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So if you were able to go back to Clearwater Beach and talk to 18-year-old Judy or 20-year-old Judy, or even 15-year-old Judy, is there anything you would say to her? You'd sit her down on the beach and you'd say, "Sweet girl, here's what I want you to know as you get older." What would you say to her?

Judith Jolly: I think I would probably say, Be yourself. Don't pretend. Be yourself. Be real. Be human. Truly love people. Value people. Value your friends, your family. But don't pretend. Be yourself. Be genuine.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. There's a lot of joy and freedom there, isn't there?

Judith Jolly: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it takes courage. I think that's why it's hard when we're younger, you know?

Judith Jolly: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're right. You're so right. And that's why we pretend. We think we need to hide who we really are because we're not good enough or somebody won't like us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: We just -- we need to -- we need to be freer, freer to be ourselves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, speaking of freedom, so, Mom, when I get to heaven --

Judith Jolly: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I am going to dance. I am going to dance, dance, dance, dance, dance all the time.

Judith Jolly: I love it. I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm curious, speaking of freedom, what is it you want to do when you get to heaven? Besides see Dad, of course.

Judith Jolly: Oh, my word. Dancing's not a bad idea. I did not dance, obviously, as the preacher's wife.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

Judith Jolly: I like dancing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

Judith Jolly: Okay. So when I get to heaven, I would want to do what? Is that the question?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. What would you want to do that you haven't been able to do here on earth because the time passed and it was too late, or because your body didn't allow it or --

Judith Jolly: I would like to travel. I would love to travel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Judith Jolly: I would like to see places in the world. And I would really start out in our country. I would like to do the rivers. I always wanted to do a river tour --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: -- but -- and out west. I would love to see the mountains and snow on the mountains. And I loved the -- oh my word, Jennifer, in front of us is a huge black snake crawling across our sidewalk.

Jennifer Rothschild: No way! Oh. And then I just dropped my water bottle. Welcome to real life. Are we safe?

Judith Jolly: Yeah, we're safe. He's down there and we're up here.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Judith Jolly: But oh, my.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Judith Jolly: Yeah. And so -- you know, what is it called? The Grand Tetons --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

Judith Jolly: -- those huge trees? And then I love Central America. You know, we did the missionary work in Costa Rica.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, in Costa Rica.

Judith Jolly: That was beautiful. It smells so pretty every day with the flowers.

So travel would be one thing I would like. I don't know how you travel all over heaven, but yeah, I would like to.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, I guess one day there will be a new heaven and a new earth --

Judith Jolly: There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and so it will be the most beautiful version of what we think is beautiful now. So I think there'll be lots of traveling to do. And when I'm not dancing, I'll travel with you.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, you're back on the front porch with me and Mom. This is my beautiful mother, 84 years young, Judith Jolly. And the wind chimes are before us. The last time we sat out here, a big black snake crawled in front of us. And, y'all, you should -- I'm impressed with my mom's composure. You did a good job, Mom. But no snakes right now at least.

Judith Jolly: No, no -- that I see.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And may we not see them.

But a couple more questions for this wisdom on the front porch. We're sitting out here talking to each other and -- like, this is a privilege that I hope other people take advantage of. That they get somebody in their lives and they just sit down and they -- not just have a conversation, but even recording it. And one of the things I do, Mom, sometimes I will still call your house knowing -- just to hear Dad's voice on voicemail.

Judith Jolly: I know, I know, I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. There's something about hearing the voices of people we love. So I encourage you to do that.

Judith Jolly: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: But let's say you had an opportunity -- it could be anyone in history in any time, this lifetime, ancient history. It could even be a fictitious character. Is there anyone -- if you could just sit down and have a conversation and just meet someone from history, can you think of anybody it would be? It could be man, woman, politics, actor, whatever. Anything? Anybody?

Judith Jolly: I have a family member, a great-grandmother that I would like to meet. Her name is Adeline. She lived during the Civil War. She is one that I so admire because of her resilience. The loss of a husband, a child, and a son in the war altogether within six months, and the survival of that lady and her resilience and her faith.

But if I chose a historical figure, a valid known historical figure, it would be Eleanor Roosevelt.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh. Speaking of strong, right?

Judith Jolly: Absolutely. Absolutely. I would be curious how she -- how she became who she became.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: And what attracted her to her dear husband --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: -- and how she dealt with his handicap with -- I think -- didn't they cover that forever?

Jennifer Rothschild: They kept it a secret forever. I don't know how.

Judith Jolly: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: She was remarkably brilliant --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Judith Jolly: -- and she had her own opinions, and I think she really influenced him. She was a fair woman. I like that about her.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: She was not one that people would consider beautiful. To me she was beautiful because of the strength of her character --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: -- and her commitment. And there I go with the word "loyalty" again. Her loyalty to her husband, it had -- and difficult. It had to be very difficult for her to put up with all of that. Obviously in politics, the criticism he would receive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: But I just admired -- I admire her so much. It'd be fun just to sit here with the three of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wouldn't it?

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, we could invite Adeline, Eleanor Roosevelt, and you and me.

Judith Jolly: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: And they would learn a lot from us. I'm just kidding.

Judith Jolly: You're right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what? I think it was Eleanor Roosevelt -- I could be wrong. Or it could have been falsely attributed to her. But there was this quote one time I read --

Judith Jolly: About happy?

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Judith Jolly: Okay, go ahead.

Jennifer Rothschild: You'll have to tell me what that is. Mine is about tea bags. She said women are like tea bags. The hotter the water gets, the stronger they get, something like that.

Judith Jolly: That's exactly right. I love that one.

Jennifer Rothschild: What's the happy one?

Judith Jolly: The happy one is you're going to be as happy as you decide you're going to be, period. Period. You're in charge of your life and your outlook and your happiness and your joy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's strong right there.

Judith Jolly: You're gonna be as happy as you determine you're gonna be.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you've lived like that, Mama. Yeah. In fact, we've had many morning phone calls or texts and you'll say, "I think I'll be happy today." You choose it. You do. You have lots of reasons to make it difficult.

Judith Jolly: Ooh, there goes the snake again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no. Tell me he's going the opposite direction of us.

Judith Jolly: He's going the opposite direction, yes. He's coming back out and going home, I guess.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ugh. Well, that's the problem --

Judith Jolly: He's raising his head. He's listening to us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you're not welcome here. Slither away.

Judith Jolly: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's the problem with living in paradise with all this beauty.

Judith Jolly: You're right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I guess it happened in another garden sometime in the past, didn't it? There was a snake there too.

Judith Jolly: I think you're exactly right. The precedence is there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay, Mama, one more question.

Judith Jolly: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Family legacy. We all have our own families. We all have our own family traditions and, you know, they change from generation to generation.

Judith Jolly: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But when you do pass from this life to the next and are whole and happy and reunited with Dad and seeing Jesus in heaven, what family tradition or legacy do you hope that me and Lawson and David and our families carry on?

Judith Jolly: Togetherness. Whenever you can, be together. Be family. Cherish one another. And then the thing that your Mama, your dad's mom, passed down was celebrate by putting a dime in a pound cake.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Judith Jolly: And whoever -- okay. So you bake the cake and then you put a tiny little knife place in and you -- you wrap a dime and you put that dime down in that little hole.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Judith Jolly: And then the tradition is whoever -- you know, then you slice the cake and everybody gets a random piece of cake. But whoever gets the dime wins a prize or you -- you're the one who is the blessed one of the family for a whole year. You get to be the winner of the dime in the pound cake.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I remember that. I used to love that as a little girl.

Judith Jolly: I know. Well, and in the next generation, your children and your nieces and nephews, they've been the same way with it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's the neatest -- well, and speaking of, I don't know what I loved more, hoping to win the dime or eating your pound cake. That right there is one of the best pound cakes I've ever had in my whole life. I've never had a better one.

Judith Jolly: Well, and that was part of your grandmother -- your Mama's recipe collection. And she was a Southern cook.

Jennifer Rothschild: She was a --

Judith Jolly: Now, my mother made biscuits like nobody else could.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, she did.

Judith Jolly: But Mama did the pound cake.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, she did. And it was delicious. But the combination you couldn't get better than would be Sarah Berg's fried hush puppies --

Judith Jolly: Oh, my.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and catfish and then follow it up with Mama's pound cake.

Judith Jolly: There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mom, I have loved these conversations. And I have a feeling that the rest of my 4:13 family, the rest of my podcast family, has loved it too.

Judith Jolly: You know what? And you've got that bigger family too --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Judith Jolly: -- and I think that's wonderful. And though I've never met y'all, I love you too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Aww. See why everybody loves her?

All right, Mama. Well, let's get out of here before the snake joins us up on the porch.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Choose Love? With Chip Ingram

Chip Ingram: In the last couple hundred years, and especially in the last probably six or seven decades, love has such romantic emotions and feelings. And by the way, I love all those feelings, and I want more and more of those feelings, so don't make this an either/or.

But the word "love," historically and biblically when God says that, it's like I love and I have such a loyalty and I have such a commitment, I have such a concern, that I would give my one and only Son, that so whoever who would respond in faith and receive this could have life and experience with me forever. So it's a love that led Jesus to the Cross, not necessarily just to have a good feeling.

Jennifer Rothschild: Victor Hugo once wrote that the greatest happiness of life is the conviction that we are loved. Just love for ourselves or, rather, loved in spite of ourselves. It's true, isn't it? Love is often merely the stuff of poetry, music, and romantic movies. But what if love is more than that? What if love is a choice?

Well, today author Chip Ingram is going to show us that love is something that you can choose to receive and you can choose to give. The love that you are going to learn about today is not emotionless, sterile, or stoic, but it is also not built on feelings or romantic notions. Curious yet? Mm-hmm, me too. We're gonna dive into Philippians 2 with Chip to understand this kind of love. And you do not want to miss one single word, so, KC, let's get this party started.

KC Wright: Let's go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends. I hope you've had a good week. KC and I have had a good week. We talked a little bit about it before we got on mic.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a good week around here, and so I hope that's the same for you. If you're new to us, I am Jennifer. And it's just two friends here in the podcast closet, shoved under the stairs, with one topic, which is love today, and zero stress.

KC Wright: Zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I'm telling you, you're about to love this so much. But anyway, you know, this whole podcast is based on Philippians 4:13. But we never want to take it out of context. It's true, you can do all things through Christ.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: That means you can choose love even when it's hard, because that whole chapter of Philippians 4 is talking about when things are good, when things are bad, we can experience contentment because we literally can do all things, not through our strength, but through Christ's.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah, choosing love might feel kind of cringy to you right now because there's somebody in your life that's like holy sandpaper to you. But you can choose love. But even more importantly, what I got from this convo, that you're about to experience, is, dudes, we can receive the unconditional love of God and -- oh, I can't wait for you to unpack this.

But I gotta tell you, KC, the whole time I'm talking with Chip, I kept having this image in my mind.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Our little Connor -- so we have two sons. They're born ten years apart. And so our little Connor was, oh, gosh, five or six years old. And he's going off to kindergarten, whatever age he was. Now, of course, I can't remember. But I pack his lunch for him every day. I think this is a big deal. And so -- now, I'm just saying, now I know a little more than I knew then. But back then it was an Uncrustable and Cheetos. Yeah, I tried to fill him up with as much artificial coloring and nitrates as possible. Additives, yes. Anyway, he turned out fine.

But -- and then a juice box. But then I would always take a napkin --

KC Wright: Yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I would write on it with a Sharpie just -- I would draw a heart and I would put -- then I'd write my name, "Mom." And that meant -- he knew that meant, "Love Mom. I love you."

KC Wright: Aw.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So he never really acknowledged it, and I thought, is he noticing it? So finally one day, it was probably a week into school, I said, "Connor, did you notice that Mommy writes on your napkins that I love you?" And he goes, "Yes, Mom." Now, you gotta understand Connor. He's always very logical. "Yes, Mom. And I really need to talk to you about that. I like you" -- not love you. "I like you and all" -- it was so cute.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: "I like you and all, and I love you" -- like he qualifies it, you know, 'cause --

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: But that's the kind of thinker he's always been. "I like you and I love you, but I don't want you to write on my napkins." And I was like, "What? Really? Why not?" 'Cause I'm thinking he's embarrassed, you know.

KC Wright: Right, right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. It was the most precious thing. 'Cause he's also a very thoughtful, emotional child. He said, "Because I don't want to throw your napkin away because then I feel like I'm throwing your love away, and our teacher makes us throw all our garbage away."

KC Wright: Oh, my word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Is that not the cutest thing?

KC Wright: That is. He did not want to throw your love away.

Jennifer Rothschild: He didn't want to throw my love away.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I was like, "Well, thank you, Connor. I won't write on your napkins anymore so you don't have to" --

KC Wright: Beyond precious.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was so cute.

KC Wright: Now he's married --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: -- giving that love to his beautiful wife.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, Chloe. I'm telling you. And he grew up to reflect that he's that kind of thoughtful man. But isn't that the cutest thing?

KC Wright: Adorable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So anyway...

We're not throwing love away --

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- around here. We're not taking it lightly. That's what you're about to experience. Chip's gonna unpack the kinds of love that we see in Scripture, the kinds of love we experience, but then he's gonna do a deep dive, as deep as we can in 30 minutes, into Philippians 2, one of my favorite chapters, to show you what this love looks like. So, y'all, one of the best. Let's get it going.

KC Wright: Chip Ingram is the teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, an international teaching and discipleship ministry. A pastor for more than 35 years, Chip is the author of many books including "I Choose Joy" and "Holy Ambition." Chip and his wife Theresa have four grown children and 12 grandchildren --

Jennifer Rothschild: The 12 Tribes of Ingram.

KC Wright: -- and they live in sunny California. All right, here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Here we go.

Well, my friends, I'm so glad you get to hear this conversation. I wish you had just gotten to pray with us because --what a beautiful ushering in of the Holy Spirit. So just buckle up, buttercups, this is going to be a good conversation, I can I can tell you right now.

So, Chip, we're going to talk about your newest book, "I Choose Love." So before we even get into the book, I think we need to define love because, you know, like right now, I'm drinking coffee. I love coffee. And my husband is in the other room. I love my husband. And clearly those are not the same kinds of love. So let's start off, Pastor, with you just describing what is love.

Chip Ingram: Well, you're right. Our English word covers everything from -- and by the way, I love coffee too, and I really love my wife, but that's --

Jennifer Rothschild: See?

Chip Ingram: -- that's way too big of a stretch.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: And in the Greek language, there's at least four or five words that help us understand love. And sort of the popular one today would -- you know, sexual romantic love is called eros love. And then we all have friends, right? You know, the City of Philadelphia, that's phileo love. And then there's family love. There's this blood connection. We grow up in these units, and that's storge love.

And there's a love that's the basis and the foundation of all love. It's God's love, it's agape love. And agape love is giving another person what they need the most, when they deserve it the least, at great personal cost. It's unilateral. It's not an emotion, it's not a feeling, it's a commitment to the other person's best welfare. And that's the way God loves us.

And when that becomes a part of the fabric of our thinking and how we love -- if you can imagine sort of a pyramid, and it's the foundation. And then we learn family love, and then we learn, you know, this friendship love. And then, Lord willing, if so we desire, God will allow us to find that right person and experience all those kinds of love along with the eros love that he's reserved for us in our marriage relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's good. And you're right, English, we just don't have that ability to communicate that one word with such nuance.

But I'm curious, just for those who may be new to Scripture, so, like, when we read John 3:16, "For God so loved the world," when we read about the love of God, is it always agape that we're reading about? Is that that kind of love?

Chip Ingram: Almost always, yes. In that particular verse especially, it is the love of God. In fact, that word is so -- in the last couple hundred years, and especially in the last probably six or seven decades, love has such romantic emotions and feelings. And by the way, I love all those feelings, and I want more and more of those feelings. So don't make this an either/or.

But the word "love" historically and biblically, when God says that, it's like, I love and I have such a loyalty and I have such a commitment, I have such a concern that I would give my one and only Son that -- so whoever would respond in faith and receive this could have life and experience with me forever. So it's a love that led Jesus to the Cross, not necessarily just have a good feeling.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So let's circle back to feelings, because we all feel them. You know, sometimes they're confusing, sometimes they're affirming, sometimes we just don't know what to do with them.

Okay. So if love is not a feeling, even though perhaps it might manifest in some feelings, I want you to unpack that. So let's say love is technically not a feeling. It's a choice. Explain how we figure that out, Chip. Because there are feelings where we don't like somebody, and there's feelings where we are like -- you know, got the little sparkly dazzle in our tummy over somebody.

Chip Ingram: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's unpack that. How is it a choice and not a feeling but still has feelings?

Chip Ingram: Boy, that's a good question. I've never heard it put to me quite like that.

Well, first of all, premise is is that our feelings are not reality. How I feel isn't necessarily what's real or true. It's a chemical reaction in my brain that causes emotions. And, you know, sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad; sometimes they're accurate, sometimes they're not.

And so when we're talking about God's love, we're talking about a kind of love that's steady, unchanging. It's volitional. In other words, let's just say your boyfriend, your girlfriend, your husband, your wife, your best friend does something that makes you mad or hurts your feelings. Your emotions can react like, boy, that hurt and that stung, and my initial feelings are I don't want to be around them right now.

And then you kind of step back and you realize, you know, we've gone through a lot together. They're really a wonderful person. You know, they said that, or I've said things like that, I'm not going to allow that to be the basis of our relationship. I'm going to choose to move toward them. I'm going to forgive them. And I might even bring up and say, Because I care, because I love, I don't feel real good about it, but could you help me understand why you said that? Or, You may have not meant anything, but that really hurt my feelings.

I think that's how these things play out where we don't let our feelings dominate and direct our life, we have something much more powerful. And yet we acknowledge that we feel very strongly and wonderfully at times toward people, and at the same time I can -- from personal experience, you can feel really bad feelings towards someone --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: -- even if you happen to be married to them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Well, no -- I'm sorry -- I have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, that's being human.

I'm curious too, Chip, your thoughts of this. So if there are these different kinds of love that are expressed in the Greek language, are they -- because they're all as God intended. Eros, storge, phileo, they're all as God intended. We should have those love relationships. Yet, are they in and of themselves complete without agape?

Chip Ingram: No, they're really not, because all those things don't have the ability to sustain us. In other words, we live in a world, whether it's a romance novel or a Hallmark movie or what's -- an athletic performance, wondering if I could just be like Steph Curry or if I could just accomplish that. We're asking of romantic love and even family love and friendship love to come through for us 100% of the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: We have been made and we long to be deeply loved just for who we are, with our faults, with our hurts, with our up days and our bad days, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And only God's agape love loves us like that, and the only thing that can sustain those relationships is God's agape love working in us. Otherwise, you know, when someone makes me feel bad, you're off my list. I'm going to cancel you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: Or, you know what? You've hurt my feelings three or four times now, I'm going to look for a new person. Or, you know, my mom and dad didn't come through for me, so I feel like I'm an unworthy person. I must not be worth much or they wouldn't have treated me that way.

God's love is a covenant love, a forgiving love. It's a volitional -- it's a choosing love. That gives us agency. See, what I see, Jennifer, is that so many people are waiting around for -- they know they want to be loved. Would someone love me? Would someone care for me? I need to belong. Would someone just accept me just for who I am. And when things or people or success can't deliver on that, we get in this vicious cycle of the next person or the next thing or the next business or the next accomplishment or the next trip and we just find ourselves longing and longing and longing and keep coming up empty.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's like trying to get the next sugar rush and --

Chip Ingram: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, when God's agape does stabilize us. That's good. Good differentiation. I appreciate that.

All right. So if we understand, then, the essential nature of the agape love of God that is toward us and to us and through us, okay, you organize your book, then, around these four characteristics of love: that it gives, it serves, it obeys, and it cares. All right, so that's four things. Could you just briefly kind of unpack each of those. Tell us what that looks like in real life.

Chip Ingram: Yes. And for those listening, the book is based on the absolute clearest, most wonderful, amazing picture of agape love, I think, in all of Scripture. Certainly all the Gospels give the narrative of God's love through Jesus. But in Philippians 2, we have a description of Jesus' love for us. And, you know, it talks about although he existed in the form -- and the word there means "in the very nature of God" -- he didn't regard equality with God as something to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant. And then he obeys even to the point of going to the Cross.

And as you listen to this description of Jesus, what you realize is, first, he gives his life. Second, rather than being focused on himself, he serves us. And third, when the emotions -- I mean, in the garden, he was fully God, but he was fully human. In his emotions he did not feel like going to the Cross. And so he chooses to obey to give us what we need the most, when we deserve it the least, at great personal cost. And then finally, he does all that because he cares. And then the rest of the chapter is Paul's embracing that kind of love. And he sends Timothy to help people because he cares. And the only reason he can send Timothy is because he happens to care.

And so those four characteristics in Chapter 2 of Philippians -- and it's a very practical exposition of it, but it gives us very specific ways where we can emulate, by the power of the Holy Spirit, this kind of love in all of our relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm so glad you've done that. In fact, that's one of my favorite chapters in the whole Bible. And we're going to visit it in a second again, but I want us to think through -- so love gives. Sometimes we give because we get something. It's transactional. We know there's going to be a blessing or a benefit or a regard or whatever. So sometimes that's why we give. But love does not give with that kind of motivation. So you explain in that section of the book what the Platinum Rule is. Okay? Tell us what that is and how that impacts the way we love.

Chip Ingram: Well, the Golden Rule, obviously, you know, Jesus taught it -- many other world religions -- but do unto others as you would like or have them do unto you.

And when the Apostle Paul is describing what Jesus did, he basically calls this group of people -- by the way, the context is there's external persecution and there's internal conflict. So that sounds a lot like today, right? There's a lot of hassle and pain and difficulty and economics and war and challenges out there. And then in a lot of homes and friendships and churches and small groups, there's a lot of conflict. And so in the midst of that, the Apostle Paul says -- you know, the Platinum Rule is give unto others the way that God has already given unto you.

A quick story that might make this helpful to people. Both my wife and I came from alcoholic homes. We both came to Christ as adults. We both came to that point where it's all Jesus. I mean, we are all in, and we just want to be who you want us to be. And so we meet. And she'd been through a challenging past as an unbeliever, was abandoned, had these two little kids. I had the privilege of marrying her, later adopting the kids. And we are -- so we pack up everything in a car, we're going to go to seminary and share the love of Jesus with the world.

Six months in, she's making me nuts. I'm making her nuts. We have unbelievable conflict. We don't know how to communicate, we don't know how to resolve conflict. So it's like six or seven months, we're here to prepare to help people learn how to love the way God loves, and now I find myself in a very good Christian counselor's office trying to figure out how can this person that I love so much, and that Jesus loves so much, and she loves Jesus so much, could make me so crazy. And apparently I made her the same. And I sat in these counseling sessions and, you know, we learned some tools about communicating and some skills. But deeply rooted in my mind is if she would just change this, this, and this, things would be so much better. And in her mind, she just simply thought, well, if he would just change A, B, and C, then we would be so much better.

And I kept waiting for her to change, and she waited for me to change. And then we played that ping pong game. When she changes X, Y, and Z, then I'll start changing some of the things I'm hearing in this counseling. And it kind of came to the end of myself. And to be very, very vulnerable, when you get hurt and when you get wounded, and when it's by someone that you love very much -- because the people you love the most can hurt you the most.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: And I had gotten where my heart had got hard and I didn't want to be around her. And I didn't want to love her, I didn't want to hug her, I didn't want to move forward. And I didn't call it the Platinum Rule back then, but in the context of this counseling, I finally came to, Lord, I need to treat my wife, Theresa, the way that you have treated me, which is really the Platinum Rule.

You have been forgiving and merciful to me. You have extended grace and generosity and kindness when I've not been responsive at all. And so, Lord, here's the deal. We don't have a Plan B. I don't believe in divorce. You don't believe in divorce. Certainly, I mean, there are conditions. She was abandoned by an unbeliever and she got a divorce. He ran off with another woman. So I'm not saying that's never, but for us as believers, without some sort of huge moral problem, Plan A is marriage, Plan B is marriage, Plan C is marriage.

So since I can't get out of this -- I mean, that's really what I felt -- then here's what I'm gonna do. I can't do it for her, because my emotions are so wounded. I'm ticked off at her. But I will choose to give her what she needs, not because I want to give it to her, but I'm going to do it as an act of worship to you, Lord.

I'm going to sit down and have these conversations where I listen for 15 minutes. I'm going to -- I have no idea what doing the dishes, helping around the house has anything to do with love, but I'm going to start some activities and I'm going to do what I don't feel like doing, not because I even want to, but I'm going to do it in my response to you in worship.

And, of course, those who've been in this situation understand. As I gave away what I didn't even feel like giving away, giving her what she needed the most, when in my mind she deserved it the least, and in my perspective, at great personal cost. It wasn't like she jumped into my arms in two weeks and everything was wonderful. Okay? So let's -- no silver bullets out there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Realistic here, yeah.

Chip Ingram: But the relationship started to shift. And as I willfully chose agape love to love her, there was a rekindling of our friendship that led to a rekindling of our romance, that led to a complete healing and restoration. And that kind of love is what heals friendships and heals marriages, and it's the power of God where we choose to love that repairs things. And so that is kind of what's been this connection between these kinds of love.

And the Platinum Rule is, I need to love people the way Jesus loves people. If they look different, if they're from a different political party, if they tick me off, if I disagree with their lifestyle. It doesn't mean we agree with everyone. It doesn't mean there aren't some boundaries set if there's been abuse or something. But it means by the power of God, I'm not a victim. I have agency. I'm going to choose to love the way Jesus loved me. And every time I do that, he will give me the power to do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's where it comes from.

Chip Ingram: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is Christ in us. You know, it reminds me, Stormie Omartian talked about forgiveness, and it applies. You know, she said when you forgive someone, it doesn't make them right, it makes you free. Well, the same applies when you choose love. It doesn't mean the person deserves it. Well, we don't deserve it from God either. But it doesn't mean we give it because people deserve it, it's because it makes us free. It just gives us that -- the joy that comes from the Lord.

I remember we had a -- I won't even say their gender -- but a human person who worked for us many years ago, and supposedly a believer, and they falsely accused us of something. And it was so clearly a lie, and I, of course, was furious and angry and I wanted to destroy the human and -- as much as I could, you know, to protect our reputation, but also because it was just unjust. It was wrong. And I will never forget, Chip, how hard it was for me to love and forgive until the Lord reminded me of what you're talking about.

I didn't deserve the forgiveness of Christ, I didn't deserve the love of Jesus, and he gave it to me freely. And so I did not still have relationship with that human, but in my heart I was able to pray for their best. I chose love. But that's only through the power of the Holy Spirit.

But I'm not sure we can do it -- and this -- I want your opinion. I'm not sure we can really do it unless we humble ourselves. And when you look at Philippians 2, that's what Jesus did. He humbled himself, taking on the very form of a servant. We don't come before God and receive the love that we need to -- that transforms us that we can give except -- we've got to have humility. What's your opinion about the connection of unconditional love and humility?

Chip Ingram: Well, I think I write in the book or in some notes that humility is the channel through which the supernatural power of God's love flows to heal our deepest hurts and restore our most important relationships. At the core of almost every relational challenge somewhere is pride. My rights, my way. And by the way, I -- believe me, I get it.

And I had a little prompting from the Holy Spirit. You shared something that I think -- especially among those who might be listening that are followers of Christ. Betrayal. And whether it's a mate or especially from another Christian, I think is the most painful thing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Chip Ingram: -- of all that I've ever been through as a follower of Jesus. I mean, people who, you know, you did ministry with, you shared life with, you did things with, and then you experience this. And like you, I had anger fantasies. I mean, I had --

Jennifer Rothschild: Big time, yeah.

Chip Ingram: -- pictures in my mind of telling them off and doing something that would embarrass them or getting back at them. And, I mean, it will eat you up. And I remember -- just what your words were -- I can't remember -- it was a friend at a restaurant telling me, take the high road, and trying to counsel me out of all the legal opportunities I had that I knew were wrong. But they were just.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Chip Ingram: I remember this picture came to my mind, Jennifer, of mercy is God withholding from me what I deserve. Grace has given me what I don't deserve. And then it's like freely you've received, freely give. Doesn't mean take them off the hook, doesn't mean there's, you know, not consequences and multiple things. But are you willing to release them, be merciful to them the way God's been merciful to you?

And as you said, I would wake up in the middle of the night with anger. I mean, it was eating me up, and it was in that moment. And then it's not enough to intellectually do that. And you said something else that I think is the key and might be why some people tuned in today. You have to start praying for them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Chip Ingram: And I started praying like, Help them to see the error of their way. Help them to repent.

Jennifer Rothschild: Help them to confess, yes.

Chip Ingram: You know, have lightning strike just in front of them. Don't hit them, but -- you know. And then God showed me, you know, those aren't really the kind of -- you know, in Romans 12 it says, "Bless those who persecute you; bless, and curse not." And God works in their heart.

And then I was beginning to pray, Oh Lord, would you give them a great marriage and, Lord, would you help him or her to be a good parent. And I -- it took two years, and I kept praying. I committed that every time I took the Lord's Supper, I would never take it before I prayed for these individuals who betrayed me.

And someone came from out of town after about a year and shared something. It was -- and they were involved in ministry as well. And it was like a good report. And, you know, I did the good pastoral thing, I smiled and said, "Oh, that's great." And in my heart, it was like, that stinks, you know. Why are you blessing them? You know, God reminded me, Well, aren't you praying for that?

And, you know, fast forward, it was about a year later, and someone came by and said, "Oh, you know, these mutual friends, you can't believe this great thing has happened to them." And my immediate reaction was I rejoiced.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Chip Ingram: And what I realized was to forgive is a point in time. It's a choice and it's action. Forgiving is a process. You pray for them and you continue to pray. And then forgiven is when you can actually hear something about them and say, great, it's done.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow, that's a -- that's hard. And that's a --

Chip Ingram: Yes, it is.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- word right there. But I appreciate it so much because you're right. I mean, I'll be honest, when my human got COVID, I was a little bit secretly happy, you know. And then had to repent because that is a person made in the image of God and -- you know.

Boy, you talk about -- sometimes I think, Chip, God is merciful to allow us to feel the crucible of this stuff, because it reveals who we are. It reveals our greatest need. And our greatest need is to receive the humility of Christ and the love of God, and then to give it -- through humility give the love of God to others.

Which reminds me -- you know, in Philippians 2 there's a concept that you talk about. Because Jesus clearly, of all who could have held on to his rights and equality with God, he did not have to. He had no legal reason that he had to sacrifice himself and become a servant and do what he did. But there's a Greek word in Philippians 2 that I would love for you to explain to us, that I think is such a demonstration of this agape love. Kenosis. Give us an understanding of what kenosis is.

Chip Ingram: Well, it is a big theological word. You know, Paul is -- the context goes something like this. He basically says if God has done -- this is the Chip Ingram super loose translation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Chip Ingram: So those of you that have your Bible near go, oh, okay, I get it. But in general what he was saying is, Hey, look, people, if God has ever done anything, if you have any encouragement, any love, if he's done anything at all for you, and the premise is yes, yes, yes, yes, he has, then be of the same mind, be of the same heart, treat one another well. Agree to disagree on minor things, but be on the same page about all that really, really matters.

And then he says this. That they should consider others more important than themselves. And then he says have this attitude in Christ Jesus. Have this attitude in yourself, which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality to be grasped, but -- here's our word -- but kenosis, or emptied himself. And what Jesus did was he veiled. He didn't lose any of his deity. He was perfect humanity and perfect deity, but he veiled his attributes. He didn't take full advantage as a human being of all of his attributes. And so what he did is he purposely limited himself so he could experience life the way we do. He could experience what it was like to feel tired and be thirsty with the woman at the well.

In Hebrews it says that multiple times he cried out to the Father with tears. He understood what it felt like to be disappointed, obviously to be betrayed, to see hurt and injustice and pain all around him, and so he descended into greatness.

In the little section of the book -- because I think people want to be more loving. I took what Jesus did and I gave people out of this passage kind of three things to become a more loving person. And they're not the kind of things -- you know, we think, okay, I'll just be nicer, warmer.

And here's the three things...

Number one, choose to declare war on selfishness. He says, "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit," that idea of it's all about me.

Second, attack the root problem of selfishness, which is pride. You know, that it's about me, you know, how I look, what people say about me. You know, where I'm going is more important, so why did that person cut in on me? And it's I have to dominate the conversation. I'm the center of attention. Why didn't anybody come up and say hi to me? You know, it's this unbelievable focus that we all have on ourselves.

And then the third is to practice humility daily by putting the needs of others ahead of your own.

And maybe a very brief story. Because I found that as I grew in Christ, you know, a lot of the external things changed, but I didn't realize how full of myself I was. And I was one of those people that was kind of always in a hurry, you know, the person who's weaving in and out of traffic and walking into the bank or the grocery store and evaluating which line, the last guy before, you know, all this TSA, to jump on the plane, because what I was doing was so important, so important, so important.

And I had a wise mentor sit down with me, and he said, "Chip, do you know what one of your major problems is?" Because I was overwhelmed and feeling, you know, like I can't handle all this. He says, "Your problem is much deeper than your schedule. You have a great and significant case of grandiosity." And I said, "What?" I'd never even heard that word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: He said, "Yeah. Grandiosity is this unconscious sense that you and what you're doing is more important. When you drive like that, you're unconsciously assuming that where you need to go is so much more important than everyone else. When you get in a line or you see that you need to be first, or why aren't you treated differently, you unconsciously think that what you're about and what you're doing is more important than other people." And then he said, "Would you really like to change?" And I was almost afraid to respond.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Chip Ingram: And I said, "Yes, I really would." And he said, "Let me give you a spiritual practice that I think will really help you." And this may sound crazy. I did this for two years. He said, "I want you to start -- you know the two lanes, the right lane is the slow lane?" He said, "If you really look at it, you weave in and out and it might save you 30 seconds over a three-mile trip, you know. And that person who was in the right lane -- I want you to drive in the right lane. I want you to go into the bank or go into the grocery store and I want you to choose the longest line. And then I want you to stand in it. I want you to observe people and just see what's going on in their life and what might be happening in their life." And it was like -- because I was rushing and pushing and overwhelmed and burning out. And I went into training.

Another thing he had me do is he had me analyze how many questions were I asking people versus the percentage of how much I talked or the percentage of how much they talked. And unfortunately, it was about 80/20 me speaking. And those are just symptoms that -- what I have to say and what I think and it matters. But it matters more in an unhealthy way.

And I will have to tell you, Jennifer, one of the greatest changes in my life, and the stress came down and the sensitivity went up. But it wasn't just trying hard. Trying hard doesn't bring about life change. It's a good starter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Chip Ingram: You have to go into training. And Jesus modeled a descending into putting others' needs ahead of his own, even to the point -- not just a servant, but the word is for, like, the lowest servant in the household. And not just when he feels like it, but he obeyed even to the point of death on a Cross.

And I think this book and the model of Jesus for those who say, I really do want to love well. I want to be the kind of mom, the kind of dad, the kind of friend, the kind of mate, the kind of student that others would say, "I would love to become like you. You so reflect Jesus." This passage and this book is my shot in a practical way to say how do you go into training to get there?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. You know what I'm hearing you saying too is this one choice of loving, the agape love, it's almost like a template you put over your whole life, and it starts to seep in and change everything about you, your motivation, your heart, your home, your career, your life, this world, your little part of the kingdom where you walk and stomp out some darkness. I mean, it's really a beautiful picture. And I'm just so thankful you made it a good training resource for us, because you're right, it's not one and done, Pastor. It is not one and done. It is a constant training.

So let's just get us, though, to our last question. Because some listeners, like me, are really contemplating a lot right now. And I love that. But I'm also mindful that some of them have been hurt. Some are really -- they've got some bitterness because that man or that co-worker, or whatever it is, or that parent, somebody's really hurt them. And then there's some who've got, like, this real pile of regret and they're like, Well, I'm, you know, decades into my life, I've got less left to live than I've already lived and I've got so much regret. So choosing love at this point seems so hard because, you know, bitterness is a habit. Pride is -- it's very satisfying to our flesh. So, like, it just feels nearly impossible to choose love. So what is the first thing that they can do, when this podcast ends, Chip, to really begin to choose love?

Chip Ingram: The very first thing you can do is to recognize you cannot give what you do not have. Or as one of my other mentors used to say, you cannot impart what you do not possess. And the focus -- rather than what you need to give on how you need to change, if you could shift your focus to say, I need to grasp how deeply, how unconditionally, how amazingly God loves me. That while I was yet a sinner, while I was the enemy of God, he loved me.

And so I think the very first steps is to say, you know, I don't know people's practices, but God expresses his love through his Word, he expresses it through his Spirit, and he expresses it through his people. And I think I would just, in open arms and maybe with your palms up, say, Lord, I want to be a loving person. I need to experience and feel and know your love like never before.

And then I would encourage them to just make it a habit to get in the Scriptures, even if it's only five or ten minutes every day, but not with "I read a chapter" or "I got that done." Oh, God, reveal yourself to me.

And then do life a friend, someone you can really trust and say, I'm on this journey. I want to experience God's love so I could express that to others.

And then finally, it's an amazing thing, is that whatever you give away, you get back. And whether you feel like it or not, I would think of some people that it's hard to love and kind of choose -- even if you need to do it so they don't know it's you because of some things and -- but it's a card, it's a small gift, it's bringing coffee to coworkers. It's just some baby actions. It's letting someone in in traffic. It's taking some baby steps to say, I want to start giving away what God has given me. And if this book could be sort of a guide or a path to that, great. We just love to help in any way we can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, our friends, you just cannot give what you do not have. As Chip said, you cannot impart what you don't possess. So let's shift our focus, right? Let's say, I need to grasp how much God loves me.

KC Wright: Yes. The first step is to really internalize that God loves me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And we do that through his Word, his Spirit, and his people.

This has been another great 4:13. So go to the Show Notes when you can, 413podcast.com/401, to read the full transcript there and get connected with Chip's book. And we'll also have some other past podcasts there, including one from Shanti Feldhahn about kindness and love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It was a super good one, like how to practically, you know, apply this kind of love. And, you know, I was also thinking we'll have a link to my Hosea Bible study. I did a Bible study on the prophet Hosea, and I'm just telling you, I can't think of a better example of agape love than the book of Hosea.

So our people, you are loved. Remember that, KC and I love you. And what you give, you get. That means you give some love, you're gonna get it back. All right. So receive the love of Jesus, show love, do all the things that you're called to do, because you can. You can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: Woo!

Jennifer Rothschild: KC, I was thinking when my daddy -- he used to -- he could not sing. But he would try to sing with us as little kids, love is like a magic penny. Have you ever heard that?

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) You hold it tight and you don't have any; but if you spend it, you got so many that they roll all over the floor.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was great, yeah. All right, that was enough.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Experience Angels in My Life? With Melissa Spoelstra

Melissa Spoelstra: Looking at angels from Genesis to Revelation is so beneficial because it does away with the anti-supernatural bias that I think all of us come by just living in the modern era.

If we look at church history, we see that there was a day when this wasn't the case. But the Enlightenment, the Reformation, some of these good things that happened in our history elevated logic and reason so far up that kind of the -- the mystical thought of angels and demons and this whole other realm just kind of got shoved to the side a little bit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Angels are everywhere in Scripture. They were present in the Garden, and all through the Bible they appear to people with messages, encouragement, and help. Angels ministered to Jesus himself after the temptation and before his crucifixion. And then guess what? They shared the good news of his resurrection.

But even though the Bible showcases who angels are, our impression of angels is often shaped by myths and misconceptions.

Well, that ends today, my friend. Author and Bible teacher Melissa Spoelstra is going to traverse the terrain of Scripture to show you who angels are, what they do, and what they have to do with you. Ooh, there is no reason, my friend, to fear or ignore what's happening in the supernatural, so let's dive in.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And it's just Jennifer and KC, two friends, one topic, zero stress. And our goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life.

And I'm telling you, KC, it's going to be a good topic today. I mean, like, how often do you think about angels?

KC Wright: You know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Or do you? You may. You are my friend who is -- you're my charismatic.

KC Wright: I thank God for angels. I mean, this is going to be a really good podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, to me it is too, because it's not something I think about often, I'll be honest.

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I will tell you this. Okay. I was, gosh, six or seven years old, and we went to a Baptist church growing up. And every Sunday and Wednesday when we'd go to this Baptist church, we would pass a Catholic church. All right. This Catholic church was beautiful -- okay? -- compared to ours.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, it was ornate, it was lovely. I had a friend who went to that Catholic church, and she told me, you know, how the priest would bless them. And she even -- you know, she was a little girl too. She said, "You see all those rocks in the parking lot? Our priests blessed each of those rocks." You know what I mean.

KC Wright: Right, right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it was, like, so woo-oo to me because it was so unfamiliar.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Well -- so every Sunday we're driving by this, and I marvel at this Catholic church and I think it's so mystical and beautiful. And by the way, back then I could see. I didn't lose my sight till I was a teenager.

So there was this sign in the parking lot of the Catholic church, and it said -- I thought it said, "Angel Parking Only." Okay, because I couldn't spell. It actually said, "Angle Parking Only." But I was like, See? Oh my gosh, the Catholics have the market on the supernatural because they have angel parking. Like, that's where the angels would park when they would come to the church.

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like we Baptist, we had deacons. That's all we got. You know, but they got angels. It actually said, "Angle Parking Only."

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I thought it was for the angels.

But here's the funny thing. Like, you know, KC, that was a little girl's just misunderstanding because of spelling.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it is true.

KC Wright: It is true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Angels are there.

KC Wright: Angels are with us.

Jennifer Rothschild: All around us. That's why I literally -- I called up Melissa Spoelstra and I'm like, "We need to talk about this." She wrote a whole Bible study on angels.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: For those of you who have done my Heaven Bible study, what a great follow-up, to deal with angels. Because I did not in my Heaven Bible study -- there was just too much, so I just -- I did not deal with angels. I'm so glad Melissa has.

So if she's new to you -- KC, why don't you introduce Melissa. Well, actually, before you do, she's been on before.

KC Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So you are familiar. It's just been a while, y'all. I know you've slept since then. But she wrote a Bible study on the Gospel of John and we've talked about that. We'll link to that later. But anyway...

All right, introduce Melissa.

KC Wright: Melissa Spoelstra is a speaker, Bible teacher, and author who is passionate about studying God's Word and helping women of all ages to seek Christ and to know him more. Melissa has a degree in Bible theology and she enjoys the author of many Bible studies, including Angels, The Gospel of John, and Isaiah.

All right. This is going to be such a rich, deep conversation. Let's get the conversation going.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's do it.

All right, Melissa, I'm really excited we get to talk about this. Because I told you off mic that I actually called -- I called my producer and I said, "Jackie, you've got to get Melissa on the podcast. I've got to know about this Angels Bible study." So I am so glad we get to talk about it.

And that leads me to my first question. Melissa, why did you decide to write about angels? And once you tell us, then I want to know, you know, like, what it is that you did in the study. But first of all we need to know who angels are. So first of all, why angels? Why'd you write a whole study on it? And then tell us who angels are based on a biblical understanding.

Melissa Spoelstra: So good. So for me, actually about three years ago I was at my father's memorial service, and someone made one of those well-meaning comments, you know, that God needed another angel. And I remember just having a little theological moment in my head going, wait, we don't really think that, do we? And thinking this is probably not the appropriate time to address that.

But then it was like everywhere I turned and looked, podcasts I was listening to or angels represented in shows or media. And what I really realized was that I didn't have a very strong angelology. I myself, you know, didn't know that much or really think about angels that much, and just began to ask the question is it worth having a strong angelology? Does it matter?

And I would just say I think there's a lot of good reasons that -- but the most important thing is that God is Yahweh Sabaoth. It's one of the names used for him in Scripture. Most often it's the Lord of Hosts, or some translations say the Lord of Heaven's Armies.

And so really the benefit in studying angels is to know God more, to know what it means that he is the Lord of Hosts. So I think there's a lot of really good reasons to study it. First of all, it just helps us find hope in realizing how big he is.

The second thing is that it helps us prepare for the future, as you know well in writing a study about Heaven --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- that heaven is going to be loaded with angels.

One of the podcasts that I like to listen to, a guy -- a theologian named Joel Muddamalle. He said God is the king of a two-household family, angels in the supernatural and humans in the natural. And that just kind of blew my mind because I don't think that way. I don't think, you know, that way.

And so as I began -- really the number one reason, then, for writing the study was that as I just was in my Bible after all of this, it was like angels were everywhere. I just kept seeing them in so many, you know, men coming to Abraham in Genesis. And then in the book of Zechariah there's all of these angelic encounters. And even just noticing the prayers in the psalms. And, of course, Revelation is the number one book loaded full of angel references, because angels have a huge part in our future.

So I think that looking at angels from Genesis to Revelation is so beneficial because it does away with the anti-supernatural bias that I think all of us come by just living in the modern era.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: If we look at church history, we see that there was a day when this wasn't the case. But the Enlightenment, the Reformation, some of these good things that happened in our history elevated logic and reason so far up that kind of the -- the mystical thought of angels and demons and this whole other realm just kind of got shoved to the side a little bit.

And so as I think about how I live on a daily basis, I often live by logic and reason. And I know there's God, and I know there's people, because I'm bumping up against them all the time, but I forget about this category, the excluded middle of angels. And there's so much going on in that realm.

Jennifer Rothschild: The unseen.

Melissa Spoelstra: The unseen realm. And I think that's -- that to rediscover that and to think about that will bring us hope, because it will point us to the God who reigns over heaven and earth.

So I'm an acronym girl, for those who know how I like to teach. It just gives me handlebars, it gives me help.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: So I just kind of went and did this deep dive looking at angels from Genesis to Revelation and then kind of said, okay, who are angels? What do they do? And what does that have to do with you and me?

And so I took the word "angels" and said, okay, angels adore God. That's the A. We often find them worshiping God. Certainly in Revelation, but even in Deuteronomy you see the angels worshiping God. Job speaks of the angels, you know, worshiping and singing at the creation --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- of the world.

But the number one thing is the N. Angels notify God's servants. I mean, their name means messenger, right? Malik is the Hebrew word, Angelos is the Greek word, and it means messenger. So often they're bringing a message. And I think we think of that often during the holidays. Easter, Christmas we see them in that role. But they're really doing that throughout Scripture. And the prophets. Angels are revealing things to Daniel. Certainly to Abraham. Just playing that role of giving God's messages to his people, intervening in his life.

But then -- so angels adore God, they notify God's servants. They guard God's boundaries. And we especially see this with cherubim and seraphim, which I -- you know, reading all of these different pages of commentaries, I kind of put them all together in the angelic category. Some would separate out cherubim and seraphim. They're the only angels with wings, right? None of the messenger angels in Scripture ever had wings. And their wings are covered with eyes, which always makes me chuckle because I've never seen any --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's kind of creepy.

Melissa Spoelstra: Yeah. I mean, a nativity play, never seen --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- eyes covering the wings and the little...

So the cherubim especially are known as throne guardians, and we see them in that role. Even that first mention in Genesis, right, what is the cherubim doing? He's guarding the way to the Tree of Life. And we also in the psalms see that God sends angels to guard his people. We see it in Egypt when the -- God's people are fleeing Egypt. There's lots of instances throughout Scripture where angels are in that guardian role. We can talk about guardian angels a little bit later if you want.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I do. I want to circle back. But I want to know the rest of the acronym.

Melissa Spoelstra: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Plus, I always misspell "angel" and spell "angle," so I'm about ready to hear how you're going to spell this.

Melissa Spoelstra: Oh, great, great. I love it. So they adore God, they notify God's servants, they guard God's boundaries. Then it's an E. They enact God's judgment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Enact God's judgment.

Melissa Spoelstra: They enact God's judgment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Melissa Spoelstra: And so we see that 185,000 Assyrian soldiers wiped out. How about the Passover story? The angel of death is passing over. And I think where that has to do with us the most in enacting God's judgment is I think about Jesus talking about how the angels will come at the end of the age to harvest the earth. They will separate the weed from the wheat. And to me, that should motivate us to share the Gospel to go, The harvesters are coming. The angels are coming to harvest the earth.

So they also -- the L is they lead God's people. We see this so many times. My favorite place in Scripture where angels lead God's people is with Elijah, because the angel says, "You need a nap and a snack, Elijah."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Melissa Spoelstra: So I'm like, God, if you want to send an angel to lead me, I would love the way of Elijah, the nap and the snack.

And then the S is that angels serve as God's agents. And I wanted to put that in there. It's kind of a catchall. I love -- Billy Graham has a great book called "Angels: God's Secret Agents," so I stole his terminology and agents.

But I think -- I wanted to be careful not to pigeonhole and say, okay, if angels aren't adoring, or they're not guarding, or they're not enacting judgment, or they're not leading, then it couldn't be an angel. Because you know what I do. Angels -- what I know. Angels can do anything that God tells them to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Melissa Spoelstra: They can stand in front of a donkey if God would want them to, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Melissa Spoelstra: And so they serve as God's agents. They can do anything that God asks them to do, except for probably one thing, which is to die for our sins. Only Jesus. Only Jesus could fill that role.

But those are kind of my angelology handlebars to say this is how God chooses to use angels in his people's lives through his Word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love it too, Melissa. I love acronyms because, like, we can remember that now.

Melissa Spoelstra: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so you just described who angels are in the Bible, and I love that. And so I want to circle back to the "in the Bible" part for us to talk about their activity today.

But before we do, just to continue to be very clear -- which you were with that acronym -- in your study you also mention that these modern images and uses and portrayals of angels, they kind of distort their true nature. So I want to know what some of the biggest misconceptions are, because sometimes we don't know that we're just accepting a lie as truth until it is exposed. So are there some misconceptions that you've tripped up on as you've studied angels?

Melissa Spoelstra: Well, certainly a lot in terms of appearance. I don't even know that I really knew that angels didn't have wings in the Bible except for the --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, me too.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- cherubim and seraphim. So there's that. Certainly the fat little babies with the wings on the clouds. I don't even really know where the whole idea of a cherub being a baby came from in church history.

I do want to mention the whole guardian angel things, especially from our friends that are from a more orthodox, you know, thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Melissa Spoelstra: I've talked to many women who were like, "I grew up praying to a guardian angel, and this is the guardian angel prayer that I memorized as a child." And I would just, you know, point people to really just to pray to the Lord. And we never are instructed to pray to angels, to worship angels in any way.

And the whole idea of guardian angels, angels do guard. Do you and I have a personal guardian angel? People would point to two passages in the Bible.

They would look at where Jesus is teaching in Matthew 18. And he's talking about greatness, and he's saying the greatest in the kingdom are these children. And he makes this side comment. He says beware because -- don't look down on these little ones because their angels are always before me in heaven. So there's that comment.

There's another one where Peter -- it's an angel story. Peter gets released from prison by an angel. And he kind of thinks he's seeing a vision and he's out on the street and he realizes, wait, I'm out on the street. And so he goes to where the church is gathered, he knocks on the door. And a servant named Rhoda comes and sees it's Peter, and she runs back to tell everyone Peter's out of jail. And they don't believe it, they say, oh, it must be his angel.

So those are both descriptive rather than prescriptive passages. And if we look at the heart of those teachings, I don't think that what the Lord was trying to do there was build a theology of guardian angels. I think those were kind of side notions and interesting things to think about.

But I think in a conversation about angels -- which I think is also true in a conversation about heaven -- is that much has often been built on little.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Melissa Spoelstra: And so we want to be so careful that we don't go any further than the text goes, and to be okay with an "I don't know."

And so is it possible that there are angels before -- and if there are angels going before God on our behalf, I think a better question is what are they saying?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: Melissa needs help with that distraction problem, Lord. You know, like, what are they saying, rather than praying a prayer to a guardian angel or spending a lot of time fixated on the created. Because in this conversation, we never want to trade what is primary for what is peripheral. And what is primary is God.

And knowing something about his angels I believe is important only because God has revealed it. Three hundred mentions in Scripture of angels.

And also to know something about the spiritual battles, the wars going on around.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's what I was going to ask you. I'm glad you brought that up, because I was going to ask you that. What about this war in the heavenlies?

Melissa Spoelstra: Yeah. I mean, we see in the Book of Daniel where, for one thing, that our prayers have such an impact in heaven. And I know I need that reminder just that our prayers are heard and that God acts upon our humble requests. Daniel is confessing his sin, he's praying.

Now, I do think it's interesting that never in Scripture do we see anyone pray and ask God to send an angel. Which that kind of bewildered me just a little bit to think, oh. Because I know when my kids were learning to drive, I was praying angels on the fender and the bumper and, you know, all the way around the car.

What I find in the prayers of the people in the Bible is that they seem less inclined to tell God how to do it. You know, Daniel presented his needs and God decided to send an angel. But as we think about kind of this supernatural battle, we think about passages like Ephesians 6 where we're reminded that our battle is not against flesh and blood enemies, but about -- but against principalities and powers and, you know, all of these evil forces.

And I have had some people be like, oh, I don't know if I want to study that because then I might get more attacked or have more trials. And my response to that is I don't know about you, but for me, welcome to life on a broken planet.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Melissa Spoelstra: There's always attacks. And any time we want to know God better, the enemy would want to distract us.

I just heard N.T. Wright on a podcast. He was asked in our modern day what does he think Satan's biggest tactic is? And he didn't even blink an eye. He just said, "Distraction." It's one of the things he's using with all of us.

And I think for me -- I had a little trepidation going I'm going to spend two years looking through these -- you know, some spiritual warfare passages --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's scary.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- when it comes to angels. But you know what I came back to is greater is he that is in us --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- than he that is in the world. And I know this is something Jen Wilkins said in her Revelation study. She said, you know, this stuff is not meant to scare us, but to prepare us. That we are to be familiar with his schemes so that he will not outsmart us.

And I did want to read, if you don't mind, just from Colossians 2. I love -- I had never seen this passage in this conversation about spiritual warfare. It's where he says, "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ and he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

And I just -- oh, that passage just reminds me -- and I hope it reminds all of us that when we're in the battle -- because we are. We are in a spiritual battle. If we could cut the knife away, a knife through the unseen realm, and see what's going on, there is spiritual activity that we can't see, but that we can trust God with these -- this Greek word for spiritual rulers and authorities, it's the same ones from Ephesians 6. And, yes, our battle is not against flesh and blood, it's against these. But they've been disarmed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: And I want to live with that kind of faith, that I have nothing to fear, that the God of peace will soon crush Satan.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Melissa Spoelstra: And so my prayer is that by studying angels and demons, which are fallen angels, it will just bring women hope that their -- that our God, he does, he reigns over heaven and earth, and every problem we have today, and that the victory is ours because of the cross.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nailed to the cross and they have been put to shame. Hallelujah.

Melissa Spoelstra: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Melissa, this is so good. Okay, so let's -- let's tick through a couple of biblical angel basics. So when we're looking in the Bible and we see "angel of the Lord," who's that? Secondly, what is the passage that says he will give his angels charge over you? Do we apply that to all of us? There's your two questions.

Melissa Spoelstra: I love that. The angel of the Lord is such a great conversation. And I had never looked at it so deeply as I did -- as I got to dive into this. So here's what I would say...

Scholars are divided over the identity of the angel of the Lord. But here's what we know. He is different than the other angels for two main reasons. For one, he accepts worship and he forgives sin. And there is an intimacy and an authority about the angel of the Lord unlike any other angel references.

And so there are kind of three quick camps in the identity of the angel of the Lord. Some think it is Yahweh himself taking on angel form. Others would say he is the preincarnate Christ, kind of taking that question to say was Christ more active in the Old Testament than we ever imagined? And others would say he's just a regular old angel that God empowered in that way.

And so I tend to take the second view. I'm a see Jesus everywhere kind of a person, which was kind of fun to look at. But within conservative scholarship, it's really about 50/50. So it's -- people on both sides of it, on all sides of it can be people who genuinely love Jesus and love Scripture and just see it differently.

But I think the bigger question for us is not who is it exactly, but to just see the messages the angel of the Lord gives. It's the angel of the Lord who met Hagar, who said, "I am the God who sees you." That was the angel of the Lord. And those pronouns go back and forth between the Lord and the angel of the Lord.

One of the reasons I would probably see it as Jesus is -- in the New Testament, you know how Jesus was God and was with God?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: That's kind of the same type of language we find in the Old Testament surrounding the angel of the Lord, where he seems to be God, but also distinct from God, and that seems very reminiscent to the language of the New Testament. So, yeah. So those are --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. That's good. Okay.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- those are my thoughts on the angel of the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, he will give his angels charge over you. Who's he talking to?

Melissa Spoelstra: Well, we know that Satan -- that's the passage. That's what, Psalm 91, I believe? And that's the passage that Satan tried to rip out of context and throw at Jesus like, hey, jump off, because he will give his angels charge over you. I think that's a psalm, that's a prayer that we can pray. I believe that God can guard us with his angels any time he wants.

I think it's so fascinating that Satan would use an angel passage on Jesus. And we know right after that happened, who came and ministered to Jesus?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It was angels.

Melissa Spoelstra: It was the angels. And I wonder how -- you know, what did that look like? Was it a Texas Roadhouse bread basket? Like, what -- how did the angels minister, you know, to Jesus?

So for me, I think that we can pray any of the psalms with confidence. And I think that if -- you know, that God wants to guide us and protect us, and he can use any variety of ways.

I've had a few people say, Well, do we need angels to guide us anymore, because we have the Holy Spirit, who lives within us. And where -- I had the same question, and I go to the New Testament, the Book of Acts. I love the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. And one of my favorite things about it is that it was an angel who told Philip to go to the desert.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's true. Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: And then it was the Holy Spirit that told him to run alongside the chariot. And then the Ethiopian is holding the Book of Isaiah, and then Philip gets into the chariot as a human messenger to explain the Word of God more fully. Here is one man. God used an angel, his Spirit, his Word, and a human messenger.

Jennifer Rothschild: Word. Oooh.

Melissa Spoelstra: And that tells me that if God wants to send an angel today, he can. If he wants to use his Spirit, he can. He often uses his Word in my life, and other people. And if he wants to do a quadruple whammy and use them all at once, he can do that too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Wow. Okay, I've never heard that, and I love that, Melissa. Thank you for putting that together. That is so powerful.

Okay. So what I'm hearing from you is the point is that we don't get angel obsessed --

Melissa Spoelstra: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but because we study angels, we get God obsessed because of what we're learning.

Melissa Spoelstra: I couldn't have said it better myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I love that.

Melissa Spoelstra: Exactly, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So then kind of put it together for us. How does really understanding angels impact our knowledge of God's character? So it might help us maybe get to know God or love God more, but how does it reflect and help us to understand better his character?

Melissa Spoelstra: Well, I think just his power, his all -- like, just how much he is able to do. So many times I cut God down to human size -- right? -- to what logically makes sense to me. And this -- just looking at him in the context of angels just kind of blows who he is out of the water.

But really the two things that I -- were transformative in my life and that I would hope studying angels would be for other women is certainly to see God more clearly, but I think it will directly impact our faith. It will grow our faith to trust God more. But then it will also impact our prayer life. Because if we really believe that God hears our prayers in heaven and acts upon them, I think I would pray more if I really believed that. So, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. There's so many things I'm thinking of that I would like to ask you. Okay, so here's where I want to go with this. So I've listened to you. It's ignited my -- like, a biblical reminiscence of Scripture. Like, oh, yes, I've read that. Oh, yes, I've read that. I've never put it all together. So when you're putting it together, Melissa, like this as one beautiful theme, I'm seeing the sovereignty of God --

Melissa Spoelstra: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- right? -- in all these angel episodes and angel sightings. And so here's the thing, Sister. Everything you talked about, rightly so, is in the Bible. What about in Melissa's life? What about in Jennifer's life? We don't have a proof text that says, well, when I was eight, I was about to be hit by a car, but angels rescued me.

Melissa Spoelstra: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't know. We don't know.

Melissa Spoelstra: We don't know.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how do we apply these biblical truths about angels' activities and God's sovereignty and the hope that it brings us and all the things you've just discussed? This is going to be our last question. Kind of give us an idea, so therefore now how shall we live? Like, how does this impact us? What do we do? How do we exercise our faith differently? How do we engage angels, if we do, or how do we engage God and anticipate angels?

Melissa Spoelstra: Yeah. I wouldn't say that we engage angels in any way differently, but I think we -- we look at the lens of our circumstance and recognize that there's likely more at play than just what I can see. I think about Job and all of his story of suffering. And everyone has a story of suffering. But it can change our lens to say there are things happening that I don't know and that I can trust God with.

I also believe that it should move us to want to adore God. I mean, his holy angels are doing it. Are we going to let them do it without us or are we going to join them? Like the Revelation chorus speaks of how we will all together -- I mean, we're going to worship with them for all of eternity, so let's start now. So adoring him.

But then also I think it should give us an urgency about sharing the Gospel. That was certainly a takeaway for me as I looked at angels. Jesus says when he returns, he's coming back with all the angels. And we know from Revelation 5, it says there are millions of them. And what they're coming back to do is harvest the earth.

And I know I have loved ones that are far from God and that don't know Jesus. And he talks about the weeds and the wheat and the wheat pile and the weeds pile. And the truth is, the invitation of Jesus is extended to every person. No one needs to be in the weed pile. So we want to urgently share that message kindly and in a winsome way, not in a shove-it-down-people's-throat way.

But that was one of the big reminders for me in just looking at angels throughout the Bible. And I would say they're like the theme music in Star Wars, right? When the theme music comes on, you know something really cool is about to happen. And so as we read our Bibles, when angels enter the scene, it always points us to God is intervening in the lives of his people.

And so that is -- just to remember that you're not alone here. That your God hears your prayers, he's intervening in our lives day to day, and he's coming back and we want to be ready.

KC Wright: I absolutely loved it when she said that when angels appear, it's like the theme music in Star Wars begins.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Hums Star Wars theme.)

KC Wright: Something cool is about to happen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: When angels appear, it points to God intervening in the lives of people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Seriously, I loved that. I loved everything about this conversation. So, our friends, let me just sum it up. Angels remind us you're not alone. Angels remind us that God hears and he intervenes. And it's a beautiful thought. He's coming back again with all those angels to take you home.

KC Wright: All right. This again was a really good one. I'm gonna listen to it again. But if you want to check out the transcript, remember, we always have those for you at 413podcast.com/400. And we'll also have links to Melissa's Bible study, plus the other episode on The 4:13 where she talked about the Gospel of John.

And one more thing. The story Jennifer told about angel parking, well, we have that book too on the Show Notes. It was your first, right, Jennifer?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. It was my first book called "Lessons I Learned in the Dark," which is Steps to Walking by Faith and Not by Sight. So, yeah, we'll have that there also.

All right, our people, this was wonderful and rich. So remember, whatever you're facing, whatever you're feeling like today, you can do it, Sisters and Brothers. You can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: The one thing that I always think about in referencing -- you know, talking -- speaking of angels is the Bible says that when one person says yes to Jesus, when there's one salvation, the angels rejoice. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. I can't imagine.

KC Wright: But just imagine what -- think about their everyday life, what they're seeing. They're seeing the majesty of heaven, the splendor of heaven, the city, God himself. But yet when one human says yes to Jesus, they celebrate. That's the most glorious thing to them.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's beautiful, KC. It just shows how much God loves us --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that that's what would make the angels break out in celebration.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Beautiful.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Recover From Trauma? With Mary DeMuth [Episode 399]

Mary DeMuth: Truth is is that God is in the business of redeeming. And think about when Jesus talks about unless a seed falls to the ground and dies -- you know, unless it does that, it won't bear the fruit. So you have to -- there is this part of healing that feels like death. It feels like a breaking apart of the seed. And it's almost as if you cannot see what good could come out of breaking up of a seed.

But death always comes before resurrection. And so if you're in that place of sorrow and death, just know that Sunday is coming and resurrection is coming. And God loves to redeem a difficult story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Today's guest, Mary DeMuth, really knows what it feels like to walk through trauma, loss, and deep brokenness, and she still finds God in the midst of the struggle. So on today's episode, our friend Mary is going to show you how she lived a story that, oh, she would have never written for herself. And she celebrates that God rewrites, redeems, and restores all of our stories.

She is going to introduce you to how Jesus meets you in your past, transforms your present, and sets a new course for your future. Jesus is still writing your story, my friend, so let's trust him with the pen.

All right, here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, that was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy, and we're so glad you're here. I'm Jennifer, and I'm just here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this 4:13 life.

Oh, my friends, I gotta tell you, though, my house is very loud right now. It is so loud that even though KC was planning to come over and record, there is so much banging and drills and saws, and here's why. I'm getting new floors upstairs. And as you know, the podcast studio is under the stairs. So everything was so loud, I had to tell KC not to come.

I've got to tell you what happened. So the other day I was like, "Okay, I want to record, let's" -- you know, "come over," and he's like, "Absolutely." Well, KC and I, we often talk to each other on audio texting. And, you know, KC's a goofball, and you know how hilarious he is. So when I asked him, "Hey, you know, can you come over and -- I finally got my schedule together, come over and record," I want you to hear what his response was.

And by the way, I wonder if he's listening, because I did not tell him I was going to do this. This might have been just for me to hear, but I think you'll like it too. All right. So when I said, "KC, can you come over and record?" this is what I got back.

KC Wright: (Singing) Thank you for asking me. Thank you for asking me. I love to record with Jennifer Rothschild. Thank you for asking me. Thank you for asking me. Yes, I can, I can record. Yes, I can, I can record.

How was that?

Group of Women: We love you, KC. (Cheering)

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it's true, we do love you, KC. How was that? That was excellent. We love you and we miss you. And hopefully my floors will be done soon, honestly, because I want you to get back down here under the stairs with me. And also, honestly, I live in a dust bowl right now. It is so dusty upstairs.

Okay. Let's get to Mary DeMuth, because this was a good conversation. She's been on the podcast before, and, of course, I will link you to her other episode that she was with us. But today we're talking about rewriting our stories.

So Mary DeMuth is a speaker, a literary agent, and the author of over 50 books, including the one that we're talking about today, which is called "Restory Your Life." She is also the host of the Pray Every Day podcast, and she and her hubby, Patrick, have been married over 30 years and they live in Texas.

All right, here's me and Mary. Or Mary and I. Or Mary and me. I forget how you say that correctly. But you get the idea. Here we are. Listen in.

All right, Mary. I told you before we got live here that I'm happy you're back. Your last episode was one of my favorites. And, in fact, you're one of my favorites. So I'm glad we get to talk about this book, because it has a clever title, "Restory Your Life." So this is how Jesus reframes your past, rewrites your present, and redefines your future. I mean, what a huge promise and what a clever title.

So I want to know, what about a restory? Like, what is it? What do you mean by that? And for you personally, did you ever have a time when you personally needed a restory?

Mary DeMuth: Well, I feel like I need a restory every single day --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Mary DeMuth: -- in the times that we live in. But I would say restory means that -- God has given us all a story, right? And we -- a lot of times we come to this world with hard things in our story. I know you have hard things in your story. I have hard things in mine. And yet when Jesus intersects that story, he restories us, he gives us a brand-new story. And that story isn't just that we're healed, it's that we're healed in order to be agents of healing in a broken world. And that's kind of the whole concept behind it.

There's your past, there's your present, there's your future. Your past, you can't change it. Your present, you can revel in the joy that Jesus has brought you today. And then you can look forward to anticipation in the ministry that God has for you, no matter what shape that may take.

Jennifer Rothschild: I like that. Okay, so it's all hopeful. Because you alluded to the fact that we can't change our past. Like, there's some things about your story, some things about my story that we cannot change. Okay. But we can live fully in the present, revel in it as you say, anticipate how God's going to use it in the future. We got all that.

So let's go back to the past, because -- I don't know all the details, but I know that you've been pretty candid about childhood trauma and brokenness, and that was part of your story. So how did that part of your story shape your understanding of God's presence in your story?

Mary DeMuth: Yeah. I didn't know the Lord growing up, but I longed for him. I didn't know what I was longing for, but I had this, like, reach, that I was reaching for something, something transcendent. And in my little life, I'd had -- I'd been a child of several divorces. I'd been in a home with a lot of drug abuse. There was a -- there's crime everywhere. My biological father was predatory. I also was sexually abused my entire kindergarten year by a couple neighborhood teenagers. And so I have all -- almost every adverse child experience that you can get from the ACE study I have, other than I haven't been in a house fire.

So those were some of the things that really marked me and caused me to really get to the point in my life when I was, like, 12, 13 years old, where I was really on the brink of ending it all.

And thankfully, right at that moment in my eighth grade year, I met a counselor in my junior high. He was just like the, you know, random counselor. And he just spent time with me and listened to me, and he really saved my life. And then as a ninth and tenth grader, I started going to Young Life, and I met Christ at 15 through Young Life and a Young Life camp. And so that's kind of where I met Christ, but that's my background story.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so you know what's interesting? Not interesting. That word is not -- it doesn't represent how I feel about your story. But what is -- this is what struck me. After you described everything and then you said, "and a house fire," you know, in a less traumatic childhood, a house fire would have been enough. But -- that's almost an aside. That's like, "oh, yeah, and."

So lots of us listening would say, okay, so without Christ's redemption -- you know, you don't survive a story like that without his love and presence in your life. And so I'm so grateful that he met -- he came and got you and saved you as a 15-year-old.

And so then as you now, decades later, are living the story that God has allowed in your life, I do want us to pause. Because some people just heard your story and they're like, yeah, she sounds so peaceful. I've had a similar story. I'm not there. I am not there. So let's go from just the fact that Jesus saved you to why you are okay. Because your background is not okay. So why are you okay?

Mary DeMuth: Yeah. I really can give glory to the Lord and really testify to the power of prayer. I hoped -- you know, when I met Jesus, I kind of had this naive hope that everything would be better from that point on and I would be completely healed. And, sure, there was part of that, like, there was some really good healing that happened in that very little tiny moment.

But in college I spent time sharing my story. Because I believe an untold story doesn't heal, so I shared it a lot. Probably overshared it. And there were all these people that God placed in my life who loved to pray, and so I had a lot of healing during that time.

But then I kind of made a decision and I said, okay, I'm healed now and I'm never going to revisit this again and I'm just going to move on with my life. Well, that worked for about ten years, and then my eldest child turned five, which is the age I was when all those abuses happened, and I fell apart. And that's when counseling was really helpful. So I don't want to just say, well, just pray it away, it's fine, because it was a lot of different things. It was counseling, it was prayer, it was lots of conversations.

There was a time where I couldn't -- we couldn't afford counseling for a very long time, and so I bought a lot of books and I read a lot of books and I just begged people to pray for me. So I kind of had, like, a patchwork of different ways that brought me closer to the Lord and closer to healing.

But I do want to speak to the person who feels like they're in that place of it's never going to get better, it's so dark, I'm in the slog and I can't get out. And I just want to say that's really normal and that is a part of my story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm glad you said that, because I do think we compare ourselves so quickly to others and think, well, if she's okay, why am I not okay? And it's just -- okay is a continuum. You're okay, the fact that you're feeling it and recognizing it. And as Mary said, you know, let it be revealed so it can heal.

And I love, Mary, that you also said even when you couldn't afford counseling, God gave you counselors through books. And you've written some of those books. So there are resources. And then, of course, there's always hope in Jesus.

And so you also mention in this particular book turning points. Okay. So we all have turning points in our stories. And so what I thought when I read that was, okay. So, Mary, help us know, how do we know that something is a turning point, like for the good, rather than just a detour or a dead end or a speed bump?

Mary DeMuth: Well, it's -- I'm really smart about that after it's happened. I'm really dumb about it in the middle of it. So usually my response is this is not a good turning point and it's not going to go well. But then in retrospect, I look back and go, oh, my goodness, look at all the great things that God did in that tragedy or that pain that I did not anticipate.

So I think it's -- I think the older we get, the wiser we are and the more ability we have to say, okay, wait a minute, I'm just going to slow down and be, like, leaning into this and asking God to teach me through this. But when I was younger, I was just like, this is terrible, I'm pushing against it, I don't like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that makes sense. I think we're all so much smarter in retrospect. I'm a genius, actually, in retrospect.

Mary DeMuth: Me too.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you talked about too, like, when you were in college, even just sharing your story was part of your healing. So I assume that that concept is also part -- knowing what your subtitle is, that with the restory that God wants to do, that there is future redemption. Does that come through just time experience and maturity, or is being honest about your story part of that redemption?

Mary DeMuth: I think you can't heal without the honesty. You have to be honest. And if you have, like, a secret story that you haven't shared yet, you won't heal beyond the secret. So my encouragement to people in that place -- and there's a lot of us out there -- is to -- if you're timid and afraid, which is very normal, is to either write it down or speak it into your phone and then find and ask God for a safe person.

And if you've written it down, just push your story across the table to them or push play. And that way it's not as scary as you directly saying it and being afraid you might cry when you share it. But let me just tell you, when you get a secret out in the open with a safe, kind-hearted person, you will be shocked at the freedom that you will find.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so true. And people -- I think sometimes we over-anticipate how they're going to respond, and it is rare that people don't respond with full embrace and grace.

Mary DeMuth: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I think, Mary -- what about shame? I mean, you didn't cause any of your backstory. You were in many ways just -- you were a child. So many things happened to you. Did you struggle with shame? And do you think that is part of the reason that sometimes we don't share our stories?

Mary DeMuth: I think a lot of people have that. And I certainly have a lot of shame in my childhood. One little gift, to be super honest -- during that one year where all those bad things were happening to me, God gave me a gift even though I didn't know him yet. And that gift was I knew that what they were doing was wrong and that they were to blame.

Now, that doesn't always happen to people, so I don't, you know, hold that up as the way to be. And I was only five, so that was imparted to me, that was not my own wherewithal. And so I knew even then that the shame at that point -- the sexual shame did not belong to me, it belonged to the perpetrators. That's very mature. And, again, that's the Lord.

But I would say that as an encouragement to people. If you have been harmed by somebody else, whether it's been physically harmed or emotionally harmed, the shame belongs to the perpetrator, not the one perpetrated against. And that's really hard to unlearn because -- especially if it involves sexual abuse, because it's just such a shame-filled environment. Very hard to remove that from the equation.

But if maybe you can think about -- if you have been sexually abused and you kind of rethink of it like someone, you know, hit you in the face. Well, of course you wouldn't have shame for someone else hitting you in the face. But it's kind of the same idea, like, it's still an injury to your body.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Mary DeMuth: And your soul too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh, every fiber of your being. Yes, it is.

And sometimes I think, you know, when we experience shame, it's like, well, if I had or I could have. And we're almost angry at ourselves for letting it happen, when most of the time that is just not the case. So there's a gentleness and a kindness that we need to have for ourselves.

I was thinking about those listening who have a story and they might feel just stuck in it, like aaah. They feel stuck in their story. So what is step one? If they're realizing -- they're feeling stuck in their story, what is step one to get unstuck?

Mary DeMuth: I think just that recognition is super important, to say out loud, I am stuck and I don't know what to do. And oftentimes it is other people who can unstick us. Because when we've had -- typically trauma is a relational wound. It's not always a relational wound, but it often is. And a relational wound requires a relational cure. So if you're harmed in bad community, God often asks good community to help you heal. And so part of that moving toward health and unstuckness is to ask someone to help you.

My friend Jim says that we're all salad dressing bottles and we need -- we're all squished inside the salad dressing with our olive oil and our vinegar, but we need someone on the outside to read our ingredients because we're so stuck inside that we can't and we need someone outside of us to do that.

And so I think that's one of my encouragements, is to be a little bit brave and to ask someone who loves you well and just say, Hey, I am stuck. I cannot get beyond this. What do you see in my life? What steps forward do you see for me? Where am I -- you know, where am I not surrendering? What do I keep tripping myself up on? I think it's this, but I'm not sure. And you might be surprised at what they will bring forward to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is so good, Mary, because I think we don't see it. We don't -- because all we can see is what we know. And you're right. What a good, good word. And I love that you brought out that truth that often those wounds are, you know, relational and so God heals them relationally. Wow. Okay, so that's a great first step. All right? So let's say we've got a good first step there. We're going to be honest with our story and be in community, safe community.

All right. Now, someone's listening and they're like, okay, I could do that. I can even identify some people right now in my imagination and my heart, but this feels very overwhelming. So let's say -- let's just give them some hope of what it looks like after step one. Because you clearly -- as you've walked in healing, you've established some habits or daily practices that have helped you. So what would you recommend for someone?

Mary DeMuth: First to saturate yourself in the Word of God and tell yourself the gospel and the truth that you are loved, you're a child of the Lord, he is for you, not against you. We sometimes just have to train those negative voices in our head to believe the truth. So that's very important.

The other thing is -- I'll answer with a story. And this has been a really helpful practice for me, and I don't even know what you would call it.

But when I was in college, I was in the Pacific Northwest, and so it was super rainy, and I loved to run. And we had an indoor track that was like an eighth of a mile long, and so when it was raining, I would run on the indoor track. And I started this practice and -- I don't, you know, even know why I thought of it. But every lap that I ran around that track, I would recount my life. So lap one was year one, lap two was year two, lap three was year three, and so on. And for a while, all I did was just recount the sadness of the story until I got to 19, which is how old I was.

Eventually I began to shift it and I began to look at each year of my life and trying to find God's handprints in them, his fingerprints in my story. And so I would see the rescue that I had at one years old when my parents divorced, which was actually very good for me because of my predatory father. Every year I would begin to see, okay, what were you doing, God? How can I have this curiosity of God's bread crumbs in my story and his beautiful intersection? And that has really been transformative for me.

So you might not need to jog around a track. You can, you know, do anything. But maybe have that practice of recount your life, if you can, in years or blocks of years, and then go back and recount God's handprints in them.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really good, and very powerful. And I was thinking of the bravery, the courage that it takes to look at those snapshots of memories that might be difficult, but to look close enough to see the fingerprints. Because God's hand was on it, as hard as that is to imagine. Mary, that's really practical.

All right, let's get, though, to our last question. There's so much here. And I'm also mindful that -- I appreciate your depth without you being heavy, because I know for many this is a hard subject. So let's get to our last question here.

So what would you say to the person whose story -- let me put it this way. Sometimes our story is one thing, but then the side benefits, which are not benefits at all, can be just as damaging. So let's say somebody's got a story, but that story makes them feel like they don't have good purpose in life or maybe that God even forgot them. What would you say to them as they are restorying their lives?

Mary DeMuth: First I'll say it's really normal to feel like you are beyond the reach of God, it's really normal to feel like my story's too big. And I've definitely been in those places. So I don't want people to think that I never thought that way, because I certainly did. Because we live in it. You know, we're in our salad dressing bottle, we're swimming in it. But the truth is -- and that's where it's important to preach the truth to ourselves.

The truth is is that God is in the business of redeeming. And think about when Jesus talks about unless a seed falls to the ground and dies -- unless it does that, it won't bear the fruit. So you have to -- there is this part of healing that feels like death. It feels like a breaking apart of a seed. And it's almost as if you cannot see what good could come out of a breaking up of a seed.

But death always comes before resurrection. And so if you're in that place of sorrow and death, just know that Sunday is coming and resurrection is coming. And God loves to redeem a difficult story. And it does take work. So part of it is -- I think some of us think, well, I just wish God would just zap me and heal me. But it is a pursuit. It is active. We must long for it, we must want it, we must grab for it. And we just -- there's no lackadaisical healing. We have to just -- we have to pursue it too.

So it's like you're reaching out of the pit, like out of Psalm -- I think it's 40 or 42 where we're reaching out of the pit. We're doing our reaching, but God does the impossible. He goes down into the miry clay of the pit, pulls us out and sets our feet upon a rock, making our footsteps firm. There's two actions in there. Someone's reaching, someone's grabbing. God's grabbing and stronger, but we need to reach for him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Healing is not easy, but you can do the work. You can reach up from wherever you are down in that pit, because God is reaching down to pull you out. So remember, your story is not too big or too broken for God. God is in it. He redeems it. Oh, there is hope, my friends. So check out her book on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/399.

And also on the Show Notes I'm going to have a couple of my books that I think will really minister to you based on this conversation. One is called "God Is Just Not Fair." It's where I go through the six big questions of faith like, God, do you care? God, do you make mistakes? God, are you really fair? It's just real hope when life doesn't make sense.

Also, if you want to do something more interactive, there is a Bible study I wrote called "Missing Pieces." And it's just going to help you go through the Scriptures and see where maybe those missing pieces are in your blanket of faith to help you get through maybe as you're restorying your life. So go there to the Show Notes, get all the things you need, read the transcript, because Mary dropped some good truth bombs in this conversation. It was awesome.

All right, my people, I am going to head back upstairs to the dust bowl with my combat boots on, because that's what I have to wear to trudge through my subfloors. But hopefully next week it'll be a little quieter around here. So until next week, remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can. And that means you can too. Have a great week.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Start Small Habits To Grow Big Faith? With Hanna Seymour [Episode 398]

Hanna Seymour: If I want to become a woman who loves God, loves God's Word and knows God's Word, instead of setting a goal that is, I want to read the Bible in a year, I actually want an identity-based goal to be what I just said, I want to be a woman who knows and loves God's Word.

Now, reading the Bible in a year can vote towards that, but the science of habit formation says if you have not cultivated a habit of daily opening your Bible, signing up for a 365 from Genesis to Revelation plan, that's going big or going home. We don't have to start with these lofty goals. We start small, easy, make it fit into our lives, and then let it grow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sixty-five percent of Christian women admit that they are not satisfied with their spiritual lives. Hmm. Curious, are you one of them? Well, today author Hanna Seymour is going to combine the science of habit formation with the practice of spiritual disciplines to help you.

She's gonna help you take small steps to grow your faith in very big ways, my friend. You are gonna learn how to start Bible reading and prayer habits. Plus, you will learn how to incorporate solitude, celebration, and community as Hanna gives us super practical ways to develop some life-changing habits. So let's get this podcast started.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And you know the drill. It's just two friends and one topic and zero stress here under the closet. But KC is actually not here today. I just used his recorded voice. I had to get some stuff done quickly and we could not coordinate our schedule. So, my friends, you get me. But you don't just get me. I brought a special guest.

Now, let me tell you why. So since we're talking about small habits today, I thought it would be fun to have a small person show you what it looks like to develop habits. Okay. So you know I've got these grandchildren. In fact, I will just tell you this. Our oldest son, Clayton, and his wife, Caroline, I swear, I think they are building the 12 Tribes of Rothschild. They have had their fifth child already. And so I think we're done, but we're not sure.

But this one that you're about to hear from is little John Robert. Now, they are all adorable. And so John Robert likes to sing. He likes to sing (singing) Who Let the Dogs Out? Yes, that's one of his favorites. And, of course, Baby Shark. But they teach him all sorts of hymns and spiritual songs. And so Caroline, my daughter-in-law, caught this for me and sent it, and I just thought you guys need to hear this little precious boy beginning with small habits. I think this is gonna bless you. Here's John Robert.

John Robert Rothschild: (Singing) Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong, they are weak but he is strong. Yes, Jesus loves me, the Bible tells me so.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, adorable. Didn't get all the lyrics in the right places, but, hey, he got the right concept going on. And it's true, Jesus does love us. But I just wanted you to hear that, because it just shows small habits are gonna grow big faith in that little boy's life. And the same thing is true for you. So that's what we're gonna talk about today.

I can't tell you how much I appreciated this conversation, especially as a psychology major, just seeing how she's applying -- Hanna is applying these habits that we -- we create small habits and our brains learn them. And it just makes a big difference. So let me introduce Hanna, in case she is new to you.

She is an author and she's a Bible teacher and she is also a podcast host. And this woman is passionate about helping people walk passionately and faithfully with Jesus in their normal lives. She's a seminary graduate, she's a wife, and she is a mom of three, and today she's a 4:13er. So settle in and let's learn together.

All right, Hanna, one thing that caught my eye immediately was this survey you did. So I want to start with this survey that you did. Okay. Two thousand Christian women. And it revealed something interesting. So I want you to tell us what it revealed. But then I want you to go a step further and tell us what you think the reasons were for what it revealed.

Hanna Seymour: Sure, sure. So I had the privilege of putting together a survey that over 2,100 Christian women took. These were women that said they were between the ages of 25 and -- oh, I don't remember the cap. Under 50. We were going for the millennial Christian woman.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Hanna Seymour: And I asked them a lot of questions just about their season of life, their spiritual life, and 65% of those 2,100 women reported that they were unsatisfied with their spiritual lives. And so right away I'm looking at that stat going, whoa, what is happening underneath here?

Because there were other answers about, like, there is joy in my life, my life does look pretty much like I thought it would look, so, you know, there's both contentment and discontentment happening in our lives. But the number one desire that I saw over and over and over in these answers was that these women were craving consistency in their spiritual walk, but specifically consistency in what we usually call spiritual disciplines. So Bible reading, prayer, Christian community, daily time with God.

But I think the heart of it was we live very busy, very chaotic lives. And there are a lot of great books out there that tell you, you know, stop it, slow down. But I always kind of laugh. I'm like, I have three children. And I homeschool them three days a week and I have a job outside of that and, you know, like, I don't -- there's not much that I can cut out, you know. My friend that's telling me to stop being busy --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I get you. I mean, you don't even have time to stop to read the book that tells you to stop. I get you.

Hanna Seymour: Exactly. Exactly.

So, you know, these women, they're not craving a rescheduling, restructuring of their lives, they don't want grand spiritual feats, they just want to show up consistently before the Lord and with God's people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And so that sounds so accessible and so doable, yet we all struggle. In fact, when you gave the list of consistent Bible reading, prayer, I thought, yeah, all the things that induce guilt, because we don't seem like we can do it well. But it's an invitation.

So one of the things you contend in your book is that -- kind of the remedy is small habits. Okay? Because we often think of spiritual habits as these long, like, very demanding things. So since your survey was for these busy people -- and let's be honest, that's most of us. It's very few of us that don't have these kind of demanding lives. So how can we, as busy people, pull this off, start these small habits?

Hanna Seymour: Yep. So the thing that we say a lot about the book is that it takes spiritual disciplines out of the pulpit and the monastery, because we think -- just what you were saying about spiritual disciplines being these long, back-breaking things that the professional Christians do, right? But most of us aren't going to become a monk or nun anytime soon --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Hanna Seymour: -- or a professional Christian or a pastor, and it places those practices in your kitchen, your commute, and your everyday routines.

So for me what happened, I was in seminary and I'm reading all of these incredible texts about spiritual disciplines, spiritual formation. And then in my free time, I was nerding out in these science of habit formation books. And I was drawn to that because I was rethinking my own life of fitness and nutrition. I'd had three babies in three and a half years and I was just trying to get some things straight in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, I get that.

Hanna Seymour: And I'm reading the science of habit formation and I'm learning how to actually create a habit that sticks and lasts and puts you on the path of who you want to become. And I thought, wait a second. Why are we not applying this concept, these ideas of small habits?

Because the science tells us you take the large goal that you want. You want to run a marathon. Okay, that's an objective-based goal. Let's change it to an identity-based goal, which is I want to become a runner, and then we create small habits that continually place a vote, that continually help us show up to becoming a runner.

So all that to say, I started going, oh my gosh, this applies to spiritual disciplines. If I want to become a woman who loves God, loves God's Word and knows God's Word, instead of setting a goal that is, I want to read the Bible in a year, I actually want an identity-based goal to be what I just said, I want to be a woman who knows and loves God's Word.

Now, reading the Bible in a year can vote towards that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Hanna Seymour: But the science of habit formation says if you have not cultivated a habit of daily opening your Bible, signing up for a 365 from Genesis to Revelation plan, that's going big or going home. We don't have to start with these lofty goals. We start small, easy, make it fit into our lives, and then let it grow.

So that was the way I kind of distilled the science of habit formation and then said let's look at that. Let's look at how we can make all these spiritual disciplines small, easy, fit into your everyday life and then let it grow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love this so much. And so we're going to go into these disciplines specifically, but let me just pause here. Because it is so profound and biblical, this science of habit formation, making it identity-based rather than objective-based, because of who we are in Christ, this makes so much sense. So I love that. And it's so logical. I want to be a woman, you know, who follows hard after God's heart. I don't want to necessarily pull off all my disciplines by 9 AM for the sake of being an objective goal meeter.

Hanna Seymour: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I love that, Hanna. And I want that to soak into our listeners because that's powerful right there.

Okay. So now let's kind of go through some of the things that make up these disciplines. Okay? So lots of us feel very defeated when it comes to reading the Bible because we think it has to be this, you know, two-hour event every morning. And so you write that Scripture intake does not have to be long or complicated to be transformative. And so you encourage what you call seed-sized Bible habits. So I want you to explain that. What does that look like on an ordinary Tuesday for us?

Hanna Seymour: Yeah. So again, a seed habit is a small, easy habit that fits into our day. And so I tell a story in the book about Billy Graham. He kept open Bibles in practically every room in his house. And he would stop -- as he walked through a room, he'd stop by that Bible, where it was open to that page, and he would read just a few seconds. And then he'd walk into the next room and read over there a few seconds. And his grandson tells this story, and kind of joking he's like, you know, "Granddad, what could you possibly be getting from the Bible in that short amount of time?" And Billy Graham looked at his grandson and said, "I sip on the Word of God all day long."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Hanna Seymour: And so I talk about that in that chapter of let's sip and sip and sip all day long on the Word of God. So if you have never cultivated a daily habit of opening your Bible -- and I genuinely mean that, just opening your Bible --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hanna Seymour: -- then maybe your seed habit is, if you're a coffee drinker, you leave an open Bible next to your coffee machine. I recommend turning to that book of Philippians. It's probably my favorite book to come back to. And when you press start on your coffee machine, start Philippians 1:1. Read a few verses. Go do, you know, whatever you normally do, come back, fill up your cup, maybe you read a few more verses. But that is the tiniest seed habit that we can start.

And then throughout that chapter I talk about studying memorizing, meditating. And memorizing and meditating Scripture are maybe my favorite ways to sprinkle seed habits of Scripture throughout your day, because you can do that when your hands are busy and your mind's free. So you can work on meditating Scripture or memorizing Scripture when you're in between sets at the gym, when you're in the carpool line, when you're washing dishes, folding laundry.

You know, there's all these things we do all day long, where our hands are busy and our mind is free, and we can be sprinkling seeds, listening to audio -- you know, Scripture being read to us, all these different ways that we can just sip on the word of God all day long.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love this so much. You're my kind of girl, because this is how I do it. Like, I teach Bible study, and I write them and I love it. But this is how I just process the Word during the day. And I will do it through my phone. Because I'm blind, my phone talks to me. And so I will have verses sent to me through different Bible apps. And sometimes it'll show up on a text message, sometimes it'll be a notification.

But I literally -- whatever it is, that's my verse. And I will read it the first time, I will listen to it during the day. I will seek to memorize it, I'll begin to meditate. And that's how I do it too. Because I can't handle a ton more than that because I want to really absorb it.

And when you think about it, Hanna, if you're thirsty, you just need to sip. First of all you need to sip. Otherwise, if you gulp it all down, you're just not going to feel good, you're not going to absorb it. You just need to sip. And so I love this. And I would presume that in this chapter you do give -- like the coffee maker example, you give us some very practical ways to do this so that it'll be easy for the reader.

Hanna Seymour: Yep, yep. And, I mean, just like you were saying, I think -- I love and I care a lot about having an early morning moment with the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same.

Hanna Seymour: You know, I want to be in solitude. I want to have my Bible and my coffee and I want to study the Scripture. You know, I'll read and then kind of go into some commentaries. That's how I'm wired. And I've been trained to do that, and I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I love that too, yeah.

Hanna Seymour: But what I've found is sometimes I can close my Bible after that time in the morning and never think about it again through the rest of the day. But when I started implementing these seed habits throughout my day, it just re-tethers me to the Lord over and over and over again, rewashes my mind. We are constantly talking to ourselves, constantly thinking things in our head. And for me to be replacing my thoughts, that are either selfish or anxiety ridden or, you know, whatever, with the Word of God, it's radically transformed my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love this. Well, and it moves it, Hanna, from being just informational to relational, which is the goal.

Okay, so let's talk about another one. Because whenever I do any kind of conversation podcast about prayer -- I mean, I cannot tell you how the women respond to this. I think it's because we all feel the angst. All right?

Hanna Seymour: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's another area where we might feel a little guilt or confusion because we think, well, there's a perfect prayer life, and clearly I don't have it. So talk to us about prayer life with seed habits.

Hanna Seymour: So my favorite seed habit with prayer -- and maybe -- let's just back up real quick and say, you know, I think all Christians feel guilt or shame -- and we could talk about the difference between those two -- when it comes to our prayer life. And I take so much solace that the one thing that is recorded for us in Scripture, that the disciples asked Jesus, was, "Teach us how to pray." That is the only thing we have recorded that they specifically asked Jesus to teach them. And so, man, if the guys that hung out with Jesus pretty much 24/7 for three years needed help learning how to pray, I think that should just make us feel better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, amen. Yeah.

Hanna Seymour: But I think prayer specifically, we have this idea of what it should look like, what it should sound like, how long it should be. And so I think making a prayer life, you know, giving it seed habit form and sprinkling it throughout your day, I think it takes the pressure off of approaching the Lord in a certain way with the right things and the right way.

And my favorite seed habit for prayer is start -- so when I say make it small, make it easy, make it fit into your day, when we talk about that make it fit, we want to identify triggers in our day that will remind us to pray or remind us to do whatever habit it is that we want.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Hanna Seymour: And so a trigger that I've started is when I start to wait. We wait on average -- you know, sources say anywhere from 20 to 40 minutes a day. We're waiting in line for things, we're waiting on people. You know, I'm waiting for my children to put their shoes on and get in the car. You're waiting for a meeting to begin. We wait on tech, like elevators, microwaves, you know, all these different things. Twenty to 40 minutes. What if -- and you're not going to catch it every time. But what if today you said, okay, today when I realize I'm waiting, instead of grabbing my phone -- because that's actually what we do usually when we wait --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Hanna Seymour: -- and the trigger is grab the phone -- I'm going to pray. And all I'm going to do is just take a breath and say, "Hi, Lord, I'm here."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hanna Seymour: What do we need to talk about right now? Will you bring to my mind what have I been worried about? What are some sinful thoughts that maybe I've had, some negative thoughts about other people? You know, just whatever, like, But, Lord, I'm here. Let's talk. What is on my heart that I need to confess to you? And then help me to listen for your guidance and your spirit to work in me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Brilliant. This is so practical. I just love this.

Okay. So these feel very doable, how you just described Bible reading and how you describe prayer. But then there's the biggie, I think, for busy people, solitude.

Hanna Seymour: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So how do we really practice this that's doable? Well, first of all, like, define it for us and then apply it to real people with real lives.

Hanna Seymour: Okay. Biblical solitude is being alone with God. So solitude is not just about being alone and being in silence. It's about being aware of God's presence, that he is with you. And a lot of times solitude is an umbrella habit, meaning we do other things. You know, I'll say I have time of solitude in the morning. Well, usually I've got my Bible open and I'm probably praying in that pocket of solitude.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Hanna Seymour: When I was reading these texts in seminary and digging into solitude, it was very discouraging to me because so much of the advice is getting solitude early in the morning. Which, listen, again, I like that. I love that. But there has been a -- I had three babies in three and a half years, so there was a season of life that I just could -- I could not do it, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I get it.

Hanna Seymour: I could not wake up any earlier than that infant, because that infant woke me up like, three hours ago, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Yeah.

Hanna Seymour: It wasn't a thing.

So early in the morning -- which that was Jesus' habit. And so I think that's where we get that idea from. We needed to wake up early in the morning, still in the darkness before the sun has come up, and have alone time with God. Yes. I love that, and that is -- I think there are seasons of life when we can do that. But it's an invitation, not a command, I would say. Some may argue with that.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I agree.

Hanna Seymour: And then the other side is all of this advice of we'll go on a solitude retreat. Well, again, hello. I am a mom of three children eight and under. I do not have a weekend.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Hanna Seymour: Some may say, well, you just need to prioritize it. But Donald Whitney had this idea of minute retreats. And this is really where I, you know, hung my hat on. I thought, this is a seed habit. This works for us, this works for women in a similar season of life as me, or just a busy woman. I can have a minute of solitude.

And so my moments of solitude started in the pantry with the light off. Sometimes I might be, you know, eating a little snack. But it went from I'm hiding from my children or I'm trying to just be alone for a minute or be in silence, to, oh, wait a minute, I'm alone with God. So again, this is a connection point with the Lord.

And I think solitude -- I used waiting as an example for, you know, a seed habit to pray. But I think waiting is a great time for any spiritual discipline, and we can use moments when we're waiting on something to just go, wait, I'm just gonna shut everything out right now, shut out all the noise and just be alone with God for 30 seconds, for 60 seconds, and re-tether myself to him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And what it does is -- it's reinforcing this virtuous cycle you're creating. Because we're wanting identity-based goals, not objective. And so again, it's putting you back in that situation of you're the daughter; he's the Father.

You know, Hanna, I wish I could remember exactly. So I know I might get this wrong, listeners. But it was Charles Wesley -- it was the Wesley brothers' mother, I believe. She had maybe --

Hanna Seymour: Susanna.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- nine kids. Susanna. Did you hear that story of how she would sit in the kitchen and put her apron over her head?

Hanna Seymour: Yes. It's one of my favorites.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it meant I'm being alone with God. I know. Okay. So busy moms, you know, put your hoodie over your head, whatever. But it is a very realistic, beautiful way to just, yeah, build those seed habits.

Now, one of them, though, I gotta say, that you are dealing with in the book, that surprised me and I'm very interested in, is -- you say that friendship is a spiritual habit. Okay, this is very cool. Because I'm curious how you think friendship can affect our spiritual growth. And all of us have friends. So are there small habits that we can develop within these friendships that can, you know, start to develop this spiritual discipline?

Hanna Seymour: Yeah. So in most spiritual discipline books that you'll find, they are going to list fellowship or community as a spiritual discipline. And I think it's vital to our spiritual growth. But as I was chewing on these ideas, I thought, you know, a smaller habit that leads to Christian community and fellowship is just friendship. And so what if we kind of zoom in on what it looks like to have Christ-centered friendship and plant seed habits that grow Christ-centered friendship that will lead us to having Christian community and fellowship.

And to your point, I do not believe -- God did not create us to be in relationship with him, just us and him. And, I mean, I love the term, you know, do you have a personal relationship with Jesus? I think it's -- you know, that came about in the 80s when the Protestant church was really kind of starting to grapple with how do we make sure people actually know God and aren't just, like, doing the things, just showing up at church, and so this idea of a personal relationship with Jesus.

But it doesn't mean it's supposed to be individualistic. We were created for community. And I grew up always hearing my dad say, you know, apart from three things, you will not grow in the Christian faith: God's Word, God's Spirit, and God's people. We need God's people to be rubbing shoulder to shoulder with and doing life with to help us grow.

And so this was probably my most challenging chapter to give actual small, easy habits that fit into your day. Right? Because friendship is not a small or easy thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Hanna Seymour: But neither are any of these other disciplines if you just, you know, take them at face value or whatever.

So ideas that I give is really first just starting to identify, okay, where are the friendships in my life? Who are the people God has put in this season of life for me? And let's write their names out. And then let's think about are there friendships that are good friendships, and they're believers, but we could go deeper. They're not really Christ-centered friendships, they're just good, great friends. I love that.

But how then can we take those friendships -- and my easiest favorite seed habit is, you know, I dare you today to text your top three friends and just say, hey, how can I be praying for you this week? They will feel so cared for. And then you gotta actually pray for them. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right, right.

Hanna Seymour: But that is the smallest, easiest way to just start saying, hey, I want to do this life with you, but in tandem with Christ. And so how can I be praying for you? How can I be supporting you and encouraging you in your journey with the Lord? How can we be -- you know, as iron sharpens iron, how can we be doing that for each other?

Jennifer Rothschild: And then what you've done is -- again it's building these seed habits because then you're praying.

Hanna Seymour: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I will say this, Hanna. One of the things I do with my phone, my text messaging app, is literally that's how -- one of the ways I do these disciplines of prayer is I'll just pray for the first five people that are on there, whoever my last five texts were.

Hanna Seymour: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's a way for me to have this list in front of me of, okay -- but to actually reach out and allow them to feel cared for and say, "What is your prayer?" I love that.

One of the things I do too -- I'll just mention to our listeners. I have a couple of really good friends, and I will literally text them and say, "What's your adjective today?" And what I'm saying is, I want you to give me one adjective to describe how you are, and then we will pray for each other's adjective. You know, I feel alone, I feel afraid, I feel happy. Well, thank you, Lord. I'm going to, you know, mourn with those who mourn, I'm going to celebrate with those who celebrate.

So there are creative ways, yeah, that you do have access to. But it's intentionality. Everything that you've talked about so far, Sister, is intentional. And it is worthy of taking five minutes to just sit down when this podcast ends and say, okay, how am I going to be intentional about what I've heard today?

And I can tell you one of the ways, 4:13ers, is to get Hanna's book, because it's chock full of practical ways, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel here. You can just take her advice. Because I can tell you live your advice, Hanna.

All right, Sister, we're going to get to our last question.

Hanna Seymour: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because there is someone listening right now and she does feel so spiritually dry. She's like, oh, my gosh, you just -- you know, that's so much to put on my spiritual to do list, and I'm already disconnected and overwhelmed. So help that listener know, what is the first tiniest step that she can take today when this podcast ends?

Hanna Seymour: So first let me say this. Spiritual growth, I don't believe -- I don't believe that it happens usually in big, dramatic moments. It grows through small, faithful habits practiced over time. And so these seed habits, they compound into a life of living faithfully with and for Christ.

So if you're just overwhelmed and, like, I don't even know where to start, first I would ask, where do you want to start? You know, is -- because, again, we want to make a habit that's small and easy. And the easiest habit is the one that you're drawn to. So is it I haven't cracked open my Bible in three months, but I kind of feel like that's what I should do? Okay. Well, pull out your phone -- because you got a Bible on that phone, I'm pretty sure -- and listen or read a few verses.

Or maybe it's I haven't talked to God. I don't remember the last time I prayed. Or I feel so much shame when I think about my prayer life and my lack of it. Okay. Well, let's just say goodbye to that shame -- shame is from the enemy -- and take a moment. The second that this episode is over, sit in 60 seconds of silence, of solitude with God, and pray. And again, the simplest prayer, Lord, I'm here. Hi. What do you have for me today? And just see where he leads.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, my friends, you heard her simple question. Where do you want to start? The easiest habit to begin is the one you are drawn to. So think about it. Pick one, if it's Scripture you need. Well, I loved this. Just open your Bible and put it next to your coffee maker. You just read one verse while the coffee is brewing. Or if it's prayer, you just spend 60 seconds in prayer while you wait for, you know, the microwave to warm up whatever it is you're warming up. Or you get a long prayer time if you're doing microwave popcorn. But just pray. Pray what Hanna suggested, "Lord, I am here."

Y'all, I just thought this was such practical guidance, and I'm just super grateful for reframing habits into small, tiny seeds rather than just what feels like these Mount Everests of effort. So go to the Show Notes to get her book and read the transcript, because you'll also be able to share it with someone easily from there. Because you know somebody also needs it just like we did. I needed it,. so...

All right, until next week, just remember, you can begin just one small habit, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can. Don't forget, you can too. See you next week.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Steward Biblical Self-Care? With Dr. Benjamin Espinoza [Episode 397]

Ben Espinoza: What if that time of solitude and prayer fueled his ministry? And I began to think about this quote from Martin Luther where he says, "I'm too busy not to pray." And that was a paradigm shift for me, right? It was as though -- you know, prayer and that relationship with God and that self-care sort of was like an aside for Jesus' ministry. But what if it fueled everything?

And I started to think about the two greatest commandments. Love God with everything that you are. And the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And when you look at the teachings of Jesus, it's there multiple times in the Gospels. He says do unto others as they would have them do unto you. So there really is that stewardship of self.

Jennifer Rothschild: What do you think of when you hear the words self-care? Well, let's be honest. Most of us think of massages and facials and -- well, me, naps. But is that really the kind of self-care that is going to sustain us in the long run? The truth is those are good things, but they're shallow, temporary fixes at best.

So today's guest, pastor and theologian Dr. Benjamin Espinosa, is going to take us beyond the surface level indulgences that dominate today's self-care culture, and instead he is going to present self-care as a deeply Christian practice rooted in our relationships with God, others, and society.

Ooh, you are about to discover that self-care is an act of faithfulness and stewardship. So let's hit it, KC.

KC Wright: KC, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends, we're so glad you're back with us today. Hope you've had a good week, that spring has sprung where you live. It's me and KC. We're here in the podcast closet. And we have one goal, and that's to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. And you know the drill. It's two friends and one topic and zero stress.

So I gotta give a big shoutout before we start talking about this topic. I am out again this month with Point of Grace for the Hope of Heaven Tour. So if you guys have not been able to come in March, you need to come in April to the Hope of Heaven Tour with me and Point of Grace. And you can find all that you need on the Show Notes, or you can just go to HopeOfHeavenTour.com or to my website, JenniferRothschild.com.

And you can get connected there, because I would love to see you as I'm out and about this spring. But I gotta tell you, we're talking self-care. And one of the best things that you can do to care for yourself is be spiritually fed. All right? So come to Hope of Heaven.

But I have got to tell you something about my friend KC. Okay. So back a couple months ago, we -- I remember texting you. It was Valentine's Day. And I remember texting you and telling you you're my favorite guy friend. Because KC, not so happily, calls Valentine's Day Single Awareness Day.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so, like, that's a day where, like, you need to be kind to yourself --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because that can be a rough day.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So he sends me, my friends, this verse. And I'm like, "Dude, you have got to post this on social media," because it cracked me up. And I thought, what a perfect way to manage your soul, is to laugh, right? And to relate to others, which is what we were doing. And that's what people are going to -- what we're going to be talking about today. But you posted on social media.

All right. So with no further ado, KC, tell them the verse that you posted on Valentine's Day as a single man. And then I want to know what some people said about it.

KC Wright: Isaiah 4:1, New Living Translation. "In that day so few men will be left that seven women will fight for each man, saying, 'Let us all marry you! We will provide our own food and clothing. Only let us take your name so that we won't be mocked as old maids.'" Talk about a verse of the day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, I claim it, Lord.

KC Wright: Oh, my gosh, that's an idea. Maybe we find all the funny Scriptures and put them in a daily calendar.

Jennifer Rothschild: That would be hilarious.

KC Wright: Wouldn't that be funny if that was a verse --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, pull them all out of context.

KC Wright: You'll never find this on a mug at Mardel's or Hobby Lobby.

But anyway, some of my friends -- of course, you know, Sweet Janice, "It'll be okay. You'll be okay. Love you."

Jennifer Rothschild: Sweet.

KC Wright: My friend, Kelly, "Seven women? Yikes! If I were you, I'd run like Joseph." My friend Patricia wrote, "Much better than Judges 9:53 that I read this morning. 'And a certain woman threw an upper millstone on Abimelech's head and crushed his skull.'" Oh, my goodness. And then Jeannie said, "I guess there are seven times more single women." Anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: My favorite part of that verse is the women are like, We'll get our own food and clothes. Just give us your name. I mean, that's hilarious.

KC Wright: But I want to talk about self-care.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Yes, talk.

KC Wright: I'm serious. You know, in my 20s and my 30s, I didn't even -- I didn't even know what self-care was.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But I don't know a better blessing you could bless yourself with would be J.R. and Point of Grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Right?

KC Wright: Because Point of Grace is like the Wilson Phillips of Christian music. And then J.R. and Point of Grace?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's gonna be awesome. That's what your soul needs.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. But in my world, I get blessed with a good haircut.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: You know, a good haircut and a beard trim and -- you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm not going to discuss my beard trimming. But that does happen post menopause.

KC Wright: But also just going to the gym one hour a day. Because, you know, they say if the plane's going down, you got to put the mask on yourself first.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

KC Wright: So self-care is important.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that's what Dr. Ben is going to talk about today. That it's actually stewardship. It's actually stewardship of the bodies that God gave us. But it's more than just the facial or the gym.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those are, like, the -- to me, those are like the icing on the cake. Because if you don't have the deeper stuff, like being nourished by God and others, and relationships and your community, then those don't satisfy. They only work when you really are caring for your soul as a steward.

So that was a great setup for this, so let's introduce Dr. Ben and get it moving.

KC Wright: Dr. Ben Espinoza is passionate about developing the next generation of leaders for the church and society. He currently serves as the lead pastor of Riverstone Church in Avon, New York, and previously served in a number of executive level roles at Roberts Wesleyan University in Rochester.

You are going to love this practical family conversation between Ben and Jennifer talking about Ben's latest book, "Good News About Self-Care." Here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Ben. I've looked forward to this conversation when I just read about your book. And here's my first thought. Okay? Because I'm an author. So anytime I notice someone has written a book on something, like for yours the stewardship of self-care, I wonder, hmm, sometimes the author writes books that they need to read, right?

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So my question is, what kind of experience have you had or what have you observed that made you realize, hey, I need to speak into this thing of self-care in the body of Christ?

Ben Espinoza: I appreciate that, Jennifer. It's such a joy and honor to be here with you today.

So this book emerged out of a really difficult experience -- set of experiences I had in 2020, which is everybody's favorite year, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Ben Espinoza: So in early 2020, let me give you a snapshot into what I was dealing with. So I was finishing up my doctoral dissertation, my wife was finishing up her doctoral dissertation. I had gotten this big administrative job at a Christian university here in New York, and my wife was pregnant with our second child, Elijah. And I started this new big job in 2020, early 2020, and in March of 2020 everything kind of fell apart with the COVID-19 pandemic.

So there we were finishing up our education, my wife was going to have our second kid, I was trying to get my feet under me at this new job, and the pandemic happened. And it was a really, really stressful time trying to, you know, handle all these things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ben Espinoza: So in April of 2020 I started to get these bumps on my hands. And like any thoughtful, discerning, wise adult, I decided to go to Dr. Google and WebMD --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

Ben Espinoza: -- to tell me what was wrong with me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course. Your medical team.

Ben Espinoza: Exactly, exactly. So it came about that these bumps on my hands were just stress bumps. I put some lotion on it. That was okay, it was gone. And then about a month later I started to get these eye twitches. And I started to catastrophize about these things, Jennifer. And I was like, wow, is something really, really wrong with me?

So then after that, after I got the bumps relieved off my hands, after my eyes started twitching -- stopped twitching rather, I started to get this incredible back pain. And it just emanated to every single part of my body. So there I was in the thick of the pandemic, living with my in-laws, 'cause they live locally where the university is, trying to understand what's going on in the world. Just a really, really stressful time.

And, you know, when you go through really stressful times like that, Jennifer, you're not sleeping very much. And if you don't sleep very much, you know, reality and your imagination start to blend together in really unhealthy ways. So I was like, okay, I have to go see a doctor.

So I went and saw a doctor, and he ran a bunch of tests for me and told me that I had a clean bill of health and I was perfectly fine. And I was like, "Look, man, like, my life is falling apart here. My entire body hurts. Something bad is happening." And he was like, "Look, Ben, I think that too many good things are happening to you all at once. You are very, very busy, you are very, very stressed out, and you wrap all of that in a global pandemic, that's a recipe for disaster. You need to go get some help."

So I started to enter therapy, I started to enter some spiritual direction. And I've been a Christian my whole life and was really blessed by reading Scripture and reading what God had to say about Sabbath and solitude and rest, but it really didn't mean anything to me until I had that whole experience.

So the book that you have in your hands, "Good News About Self-Care," I talk about this journey of going from a very, very ambitious kind of person, graduating from college quickly, getting my doctorate quickly, getting all these different kinds of raises and promotions, and writing books at an early age, and realizing I had no idea how to care for myself, and in 2020 I paid the price.

So that's the story. That's where it came from. And the book is really about my journey and really stuff that I'm still working through, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Well, it is a lifelong work-through, because you don't change your inherent drive and your inherent intellect and what motivates you in life --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but you have to learn how to mitigate some of the harder benefits --

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of that kind of personality.

Ben Espinoza: Definitely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, you're speaking my language. This is my family. We're academic, we're -- I get you. I totally --

Ben Espinoza: Good. I like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I get you. Sadly, I get you. And that's part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation, because I think we're not the only ones.

Ben Espinoza: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes we think something's wrong with us. You know, here you had all these good things happening. And you're trying to do your best for your people, for your family, for the Lord, for your career --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and you're falling apart physically and you think, what is wrong with me? And the answer is nothing.

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's learning how to steward this. So I'm glad you've written this book. And we're going to unpack it.

So in this book that you've written, "Good News About Self-Care," you debunk some of the biggest misunderstandings that Christians often have about self-care. And so I'd like you to talk to us about what the myths we have about self-care are, because sometimes we think, well, I shouldn't need this if I've got Jesus.

Ben Espinoza: Right? Exactly. No, that's a really good question.

So some of the myths that I see out in culture, but particularly Christian culture today, is you don't need self-care. You are a sinner, you've got to repent, you got to give your life to Jesus and then give yourself over to the church and the ministry of other people. And there's a lot of truth to that. So that's one sort of idea that's out there.

The other idea is that self-care is sort of resistance against, you know, an oppressive society that just demands all of us all the time, and self-care is really sort of a mini form of resistance. And really I say these are all pretty good ideas, we don't need to throw any of them out.

But at the same time when I look at Jesus' life and ministry, this is somebody who is teaching, he's preaching, he's healing the sick, he's feeding the poor, he's preaching and proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom of God, and yet there are times when he decides to retreat to spend time with his Father to get more wisdom and insight and clarity.

There are times when he's enjoying fellowship with his disciples, with people in Levi -- Matthew, the tax collector's house. There are times when he's just enjoying fellowship with people. And he also had limits too. He understood that he was there for a certain amount of time for a very specific purpose.

So some of the myths out there are you shouldn't care about self-care because Jesus didn't care about self-care, you know, he gave his life for us. And yet when you look at Jesus' life and ministry, there is a lot of self-care that is taking place.

One of the things that I struggle with too, Jennifer, is the Apostle Paul. I mean, he's shipwrecked, he's cold, he's hungry, he's getting beaten up all the time, and yet you can see in his own life that he's spending time with people, that he's encouraging people to bear with one another, to love one another, to care for one another, just as Christ has called us to love and care for one another too. So those are some of the myths that I see out there.

And I'll say this too. That there are a lot of folks, I think, that like the idea of self-care, but don't know exactly where to start. And my hope in this book is, hey, baby steps. Let's just start to focus on some things that you know that you need to do better in your relationship with God and in your self-care. Let's just start walking this path together.

So those are a few of the ideas that I see out there in Christian culture today.

Jennifer Rothschild: I agree with all that, Ben. And I was thinking too, for me, one of the things that's hard for me -- I've gone through seasons where I'm like, oh, well, self-care is -- it's just indulgent. It's just selfish. Like, how can I waste time, valuable time, when people are dying and going to hell --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I just care about, you know, getting a facial.

But what I'm hearing from you is that self-care -- it's a lot more than bubble baths and facials and spa days or naps or whatever.

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think you're talking about something deeper.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So give us an understanding about what real self-soul care is.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely. So one of the things that you see in culture today is a focus on self-care as caring for the physical. As you said, it's Jacuzzis, it's bubble baths, it's facials, it's eating good food, resting, those kinds of things. And those are all very, very important. I do not want to, you know, diminish the importance of going to the spa and just having and just enjoying that time. But what I've found is that true self-care is really finding your joy and purpose in a relationship with the Lord.

So when you look at my book, there are four quadrants that I talk about, four different relationships. Number one is your relationship with God. Making sure that you're in the Word every single day, making sure that you're in communication with the Lord through prayer, making sure that you are spending time in worship and thanking God for everything that you have. So your relationship with God really, really does come first, and then you can talk about your relationship with yourself. So this is where I talk about physical self-care, emotional self-care, because there's a lot of emotional untangling that I find a lot of us really need to do.

And then I also talk about playfulness. And I coined this term "playlessness," because there are times when we're not very playful. We forget to enjoy life, enjoy the good things that God has given us, and I think we suffer as a result. So you have to care for your relationship with God, because if you don't have that right, if you're not in the Word every day, if you're not praying every day, if you're not living a life filled with worship or gratitude, then everything falls apart. It's like a house of cards. So you start with your relationship with the Lord, make sure that is strong. Then we can start to look at the physical, the emotional, the playful self-care.

And then we can start to look at our relationship with society. Because the messages that we get in society today, Jennifer, are, you know, you are not more than what you can produce. You are only as valuable as your contribution to society, right? And yet the Lord says that we are image bearers created in his image, worthy of respect and dignity and love and care. So this is why I talk about Sabbath as, like, a form of resistance against some of those rhythms -- right? -- to work the 70, 80 hours a week while neglecting all the other different kinds of relationships that we have, relationship with God, relationship with ourselves, relationship with our family.

I talk about putting limitations on our technology. Because social media can do some good things, as we know, but it can also be detrimental to our relationships and our sense of self-worth too.

And then finally I talk about our relationships -- right? -- our relationship with our mission in life. I talk about how many of us like the idea of having a life's mission, I was born to do this, and yet the reality is at different times in our lives we are called to do different things. It's, I have young kids, so I'm called to do this here; or my kids are out of the house, I'm called to do this; or this specific opportunity came up, I'm called to do this. We're called to love God and love neighbor wholeheartedly, but how that's manifested in our work and in our relationships changes over time. So we have to give attention to that. We have to care about our relationship with work and getting good work-life balance, making sure it's not overtaking our personal lives and our spiritual lives.

And then finally I talk about relationships that we might want to walk away from. You know, it's really difficult for us, Jennifer, because as Christians, you know, we're called to love and care for everybody, but there are specific instances in Scripture where you see that it is okay and almost preferable to walk away from certain relationships.

So to get back to your original question, then, true, deep self-care starts with a strong relationship with God, relationship with his Word, in prayer, with worship, with gratitude, and then everything else flows from there. Your sense of self-worth, your self-care, physical, emotional self-care, your relationship with society, how you interact with the rhythms of society and your relationship with other folks, that all stems from a strong relationship with God.

And as I mentioned, when you look at the secular resources that are out there, they almost always talk about the physical self-care. And they'll talk about your life's mission and knowing your limits and work-life balance and all that, and that's good. But I'm saying that unless you have a strong relationship with the Lord, everything else is gonna fall apart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, everything else just becomes like a numbing gel --

Ben Espinoza: It's true. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for the real problem --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know?

Ben Espinoza: That's a good way to put it.

---

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: I will never forget sitting outside Dr. Engels' office right there in Borbe Hall at Palm Beach Atlantic University where he helped me take my statistic exams. Now, some people call statistics "sadistics." And let me just say, there is a reason for that. It was hard. And this was back in the day when computers and accessible software, they just weren't existent, or at least not what they are today. And so being blind, I literally could not navigate all the charts and formulas to pull off statistics.

So Dr. Engels, he would sit outside his office, because he was my stats professor, and he would read the exam to me. He would help me navigate charts and he would read me formulas so that I could take each of those tests. Amazing, right?

Well, that professor, he perfectly captures the spirit of the university where I graduated, Palm Beach Atlantic University.

PBA is a relationally caring, academically challenging, oh, and spiritually enriching university that you need to know about for your kids and your grandkids. But can I just say this? Palm Beach Atlantic University isn't just for your kids or grandkids. It can be for you also.

PBA offers online courses that you can enroll in bachelor's and master level programs that can fit your schedule, your goals, and your timeline. You gotta check it out, all in this amazing, caring Christian community.

So go to 413podcast.com/PBA to learn all you need to know. I promise you're gonna love, just like I know you're loving this conversation, so let's get back to it.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: As I'm hearing you explain this too, what I like is you kind of flip the paradigm upside down. Because a lot of times we think self-care is just, okay, I need to change my calendar, I need to have some downtime, or whatever it might be. But what you're saying is self-care is a mindset.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so to begin, Ben, with a relationship with the Lord and worship, I'll be honest, sometimes to me I feel like, okay, that's my duty, that's my spiritual discipline.

Ben Espinoza: That's right. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But what you're saying is if you really want to care for yourself, then you seek God and then you get your soul needs met right there first and foremost. And, of course, what blesses God blesses you.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, wow, what a good paradigm shift. And so I want you to make the connection, then, for us between living purposefully, caring for ourselves, and caring for and serving others. Okay? Make that connection. How do those things all go together?

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely. So let me go back to the life and ministry of Jesus. So as I mentioned, he's busy all the time. He's teaching, he's healing, he's preaching, he's recruiting his disciples, he's standing up to the Pharisees. He has a very, very robust life and ministry, and yet, as I mentioned, he retreats often to have talks with his father.

And to me, that is just so important. We often miss that. Because sometimes we'll say, okay, his business is really the business of the Kingdom, and then when he has some downtime, he'll go and talk with his Father. But in reality, one of the things that I talk about in the book is what if that time of solitude and prayer fueled his ministry?

And I began to think about this quote from Martin Luther where he says, "I'm too busy not to pray." And that was a paradigm shift for me. Right? It was as though -- you know, prayer and that relationship with God and that self-care sort of was, like, an aside for Jesus' ministry. But what if it fueled everything?

And I started to think about the two greatest commandments: love God with everything that you are, and then the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And when you look at the teachings of Jesus, it's there multiple times in the Gospels. He says do unto others as they would have them do unto you. So there really is that stewardship of self.

And one of the things I talk about in the book too -- and actually, the original title of the book, the one that I pitched to my publisher, was "Honoring the Divine Image." Because when you look at us created in the image of God for a purpose worthy of value and dignity and care and love, we are called to steward the great resource that God has given us, which is our bodies, which is ourselves, right? And if we don't steward ourselves, if we don't steward our bodies and our souls and our minds and our relationships well, then nothing that we do can be stewarded, right?

So one of the things that we talk about a lot sort of in self-care circles is the analogy of the airplane mask, right? So, like, you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, putting on our mask first?

Ben Espinoza: Exactly. Put on your mask first before you help other people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Espinoza: And it's such a cliche, but you know what, there's so much truth to that. Because unless you are healthy, unless you are prayed up, unless you understand God's Word, unless -- things are going well in your life, unless you care for yourself in a deep way, you're not going to be able to care for others. So that's the connection that I would make, Jennifer, is as image bearers, we need to make sure that we are in a strong relationship with God, that we are caring for ourselves in a deep way so that we can care for others, otherwise we're ministering out of something that we don't have.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. And then it becomes counterfeit --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and fake and just the precursor to burnout.

Ben Espinoza: It's true. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, speaking of burnout -- okay? -- let's go back to 2020.

Ben Espinoza: Oh, wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're in the midst of all of this. Now here we are six years later, that little baby is five or six years old.

Ben Espinoza: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm curious, now that you have gone through the school of hard knocks, learning the reality of all of this, where are you now? What do you do with your life? How do you in a practical way experience self-care? And I believe it is a discipline. How do you exercise the discipline of self-care?

Ben Espinoza: Well, that's good. Yeah, so I'm very intentional, so every morning is prayer, it's Bible study, it's writing in a gratitude journal that I have about the things that I'm grateful for. And I pray for people in my church, pray for people in my community. If I say I'm going to pray for you, I have to write it down so I remember. So that morning routine is very, very important.

Most of the time it's going and hitting up my punching bag. You know, somebody asked me, "So you're a boxer?" And I said, "I don't think I'd call it that. I just put on gloves and I go punch something for 20 minutes."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Ben Espinoza: It sounds really angry, but it's -- actually, I get a lot of joy out of it. You burn a lot of calories and everything. So it's really trying, like, to follow my own advice here of making sure I have a strong, solid foundation with God in the very beginning of the day, making sure that I'm caring for myself and getting in the right sort of physical head space, and then looking at my relationship with society and thinking more about different pauses that I can have throughout my day. If I'm in the middle of a big project, I need to take a break or two to remind myself, okay, I'm more than my project. You know, if this succeeds, amen, I'm so glad for that. If it fails, I am more than what I produce, right?

And then also it comes back to your relationships and making sure that I have strong, healthy relationships, people that can build me up in my walk with Christ, who can hold me accountable. So, you know, I have several friends that I go to for that. There are a couple friends I talk to weekly just as an accountability measure. Hey, what's going well? What are you struggling with? How can I pray for you? These kinds of things.

And I say this at the very end of my book, Jennifer. I'm not perfect at this, sort of that -- like we'd talked about, when you're an academic, when you're in ministry, you want to serve, you want to do, you want to create, you want to build, and that tendency is just so real to all of us. So it's something that I'm still working through.

And even when I was writing this book -- I mention this at the very end of the book. Maybe I'm too honest in my book, Jennifer. I don't know. But I mentioned this. It's like, you know, I probably stayed up way too late to write the chapter on physical self-care. It's like, you know what, I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't do that. So I'm learning. I'm learning.

Like you said, Jennifer, it's one of those things that's a -- it is a lifelong pursuit of learning how to do well. But that's the relationship with Christ, right? It's something that we're going to be continuing to hone throughout the rest of our lives. So I'm nowhere near perfect, but those are some of the rhythms that I have in my life today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't think any of us want to read a book from someone who's standing up at an ivory tower saying, "I have perfected this --

Ben Espinoza: Oh, exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- let me lead you therefore."

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think we'd rather have a guide walking us through who's just maybe a step ahead and stumbles every now and then --

Ben Espinoza: That's what I tell people.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and so I appreciate that honesty.

Ben Espinoza: I'm glad.

Jennifer Rothschild: I appreciate that honesty. And I think we all do struggle. And you know what? I think it's a worthy struggle too, Ben --

Ben Espinoza: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we want to live in that tension of --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of serving Christ well, serving others well, and still taking care of us. We don't want it to be so easy to just self-indulge or give up our lives in a martyrdom sort of way --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for others.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it's a good tension to have.

I appreciate the practicality of the book too, so --

Ben Espinoza: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. I can't wait. We're going to have at the very end, y'all listening, a link to his book, to Ben's book, "The Good News About Self-Care."

And by the way, one more thing. If I were on your publicity committee or your PubCo, I would have so chosen the "Honoring the Image of God In You." I love that concept. Or the Divine Image --

Ben Espinoza: Noted.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- whatever you called it. I love that. I love that.

Ben Espinoza: "Honoring the Divine Image," yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: "Honoring the Divine Image." That's what we're doing when we take care of ourselves. Yeah --

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we belong to him.

Okay, we're going to get to our last question, brother.

Ben Espinoza: Great.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So you addressed very clearly, which I appreciate, what your book explores, which is this self-care exploration through these dimensions of our relationship with God first, then self, then society and others. Okay. So some of us have listened, and we got some Type A's. They are taking notes, they're like, okay, I gotta do this, I gotta do this.

Ben Espinoza: Oh, yeah. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So let's end with this. How can we begin to apply this, like today when the podcast ends, without getting totally overwhelmed?

Ben Espinoza: I appreciate that. So what I would do is just baby steps. We know what we struggle with. If you're not in God's Word every day, get in God's Word five, ten minutes. Just pick one of the Gospels, start reading through that. Start to submit your life to what God has to say through his Word. Start small.

If you don't have a regular prayer life, go ahead and start praying for a few things. If you don't have a regular worship life, if you don't have a gratitude journal, start doing those kinds of things. Start with baby steps. You know, it doesn't need to take a lot of time. You know, if we have a lot of time to spend in God's Word, great. That would be wonderful. But I'd encourage people to start with these small things.

And we know our tendencies, right? If your tendency is to go, go, go, go, go, stay up late, wake up early, then I would encourage you, try and focus on your sleep patterns, right? What's keeping you up late? What's getting you up early? You know, go see a doctor. Get a checkup if you haven't. Really figure out if you have, like, some sort of physical issue going on.

And I would also look at your rhythms of Sabbath. And when I talk about Sabbath, people are like, okay. You know, I'm so busy. I'm working three or four jobs just to try to make ends meet here, Ben. Are you asking me to take a day off? And I usually say, if you can, go ahead and do that and spend it wisely. But if you can't, you know, try and find pockets of time where you can spend recovering that sense of joy and recovering a relationship with the Lord there.

And then finally I would say look at the rhythms of your life and say, okay, what gives me deep joy, what gives me purpose, and what detracts from that, and really do that work of evaluation. So it doesn't need to be perfection. I'm still working on this six years later, Jennifer.

But I would encourage somebody, as soon as you get off the call, if you haven't cared for any of these dimensions, your relationship with God, yourself, with society, with others, then start to look at one of those and start to really try and figure out what rhythms you can get into your life today that will help. And start small and be gracious with yourself, because you're not going to perfect it. I still haven't. Jennifer, as holy as you are, you will not.

Jennifer Rothschild: No way.

Ben Espinoza: And neither will any of your listeners. But we can try. We can do it because it really is about stewarding this gift that God has given to the world, which is us.

So those are a few ways I would say. Just take baby steps. Go easy on yourself. And I think over time those habits are going to form and shape you in a powerful way.

KC Wright: Think of the dimensions he listed. Which one needs the most attention? Pick one and start small.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's a good word. And like Ben said, be gracious to yourself, you know? Most importantly, take baby steps. First and foremost, though, you start in God's Word, even if it's just five minutes a day, and then do what the Word says and pray.

And, you know, I loved what he said too, KC, about, like, going to bed early, getting up early, because I think there's some of you out there, you know, you may be a late-night person and an early riser all at once. And so -- you also could be a person who maybe just drives in the fast lane all the time.

You know, I thought as Ben was saying all that -- my brother Lawson is a therapist. He's fantastic. And one of his things he always challenges his client, consider your opposite impulse. So, like, if you're always going 100 miles per hour, what is the opposite impulse of that? Slowing down. If you stay up late and get up early, what's the opposite impulse of that? Well, you go to bed a little earlier or you sleep a little later, whatever. But I think that's an important thing to consider.

KC Wright: This is a book that needs to be read for sure. This can be your first step actually to some self-care. And because we care about your self, we're giving one away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: So simply go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/397 to register to win and read a transcript. And, of course, you can go straight to Jennifer's Insta @jennrothschild to enter to win Ben's book "The Good News About Self-Care."

All right, I will say this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Say it.

KC Wright: You did this already today. You showed good care for yourself by joining us here at The 4:13.

Jennifer Rothschild: True.

KC Wright: You are caring for your soul every time you tune in, and we are so thankful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: So until next week, care well for yourself because God cares for you. One translation says he cares for you affectionately. He cares for you so deeply. You can be a good steward of your self-care, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: Okay. If you're going to do some self-care today, J.R., what are you going to do?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, what am I going to do?

KC Wright: What are you going to do to bless yourself?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm going to eat a grilled cheese sandwich.

KC Wright: Because you do work all the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do work all the time. But you know what? I like to work.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, it brings me joy.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I love grilled cheese sandwiches. I'm gonna eat a grilled cheese sandwich. And you know what I do, KC?

KC Wright: Yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: I put a slice of cheddar, I put a slice of Colby, and I put a slice of pepper jack.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: That right there is some self-care.

KC Wright: Oh, that is.

4:13 Podcast: Behold and Be Held - Easter Reflections [Episode 396]

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, 4:13ers. This is a wonderful weekend, and I'm so glad you're hanging out with me and KC. This is Jennifer. And it's Good Friday, or it's about to be, depending on when you're listening. Or maybe we've just experienced it and now we are experiencing the celebration of resurrection.

So wherever you are in this beautiful Holy Week celebrating Christ's resurrection, we're so glad you're celebrating it with us. We do want to behold the Lamb today, and we know that what we behold, we will be held by.

We have got just a special time for your heart today, because we have a singer, Layne Victoria, with us, and she is going to lead us to the heights of worship and take us to the depths of gratefulness as she sings over us "Behold the Lamb."

So let's get this Easter reflection started, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. So glad you are with us. KC and I are in the closet. We just wanted to pop in and give some Easter reflections because we want you to be spending time with your family.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Maybe you're doing Easter egg hunts, maybe you're at a service for Holy Week for Good Friday. Whatever it is you're doing, thanks for letting us pop in.

Layne Victoria is a singer-songwriter, and she is going to sing over you just to prepare your heart and allow you just to experience the gratefulness of the beauty of Easter and what it means to behold the Lamb.

But speaking of lambs, because you're a pastor, KC, Easter is like the Olympics for you. It's a big weekend.

KC Wright: Okay. Yes, Easter is the Super Bowl for any pastor.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

KC Wright: I'm here to tell you, I'll never forget this past Christmas service. You know, you're driving home and you're like, "Oh, we got through that Christmas service." And my daughter, who I call the Holy Spirit with a hair-do, she goes, "Easter's next." And honestly, you start planning for your Easter service in January.

Jennifer Rothschild: You really do.

KC Wright: You really do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

KC Wright: I'll never forget my very first Easter as a lead pastor. I've always been your college pastor, your youth pastor. But now I'm like, oh, wow. Lord help.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm in charge.

KC Wright: Well, I always say Jesus is the Great Shepherd.

But I had in my mind -- we had vision of our parking lot turning into a small carnival, because it's all about families and kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And so we had the bouncy houses and the snow cones and all the things, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Aw, that's fun.

KC Wright: And the photo booth and all that. But we wanted a petting zoo. And -- okay, let me rephrase that. I wanted a petting zoo for the kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC did, yes.

KC Wright: So I went to Orscheln's -- or Tractor Supply now. Or whatever.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. One of those places.

KC Wright: A farming store.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: I bought a bunch of bunnies and chickens and ducks.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Ones with heartbeats and feet?

KC Wright: Real ones.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Because I pictured a little fenced-in area, and the kids can come up. And then, by the way, you talk about some cute pictures. Picture these kids now in their Easter outfits holding bunnies and ducks and chickens. Nothing is more cuter.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're right. That's adorable.

KC Wright: But me being the sanguine personality, I'm like, "Let's do this." There's no business like show business, right? And so, you know, you -- an extrovert always does that. Then you have to have a reality check.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's why you and I work together.

KC Wright: Perfectly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Because I could finish the gig. I can almost tell you how I know it ended.

KC Wright: So souls were saved, baptisms happened. The Easter photos happened, everyone left with gifts. And we're leaving the church parking lot, and I'm like, "Hold on. What are we going to do with all these chickens? What are we going to do with all these chickens?"

Jennifer Rothschild: KC.

KC Wright: And so, praise God, I had to sit in that parking lot for a while and text some church members. And I found homes for the chickens. Which, by the way, are still alive, producing eggs for our church family.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, see, that's the gift that keeps giving.

KC Wright: And then I found a home for the ducks. And that rabbit, that bunny, that came home with us. Elly twisted my arm. We had Leo for a long, long time.

Jennifer Rothschild: I remember Leo. I did not realize that Leo's origin story was the petting zoo.

KC Wright: And I'm here to tell you parents, if your kid is begging for a rabbit, don't do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Say no.

KC Wright: Don't do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just say no.

KC Wright: Are they cute? Are they adorable? Do they make the best photos? All the yeses. But they are so nasty.

Jennifer Rothschild: And they -- yes.

KC Wright: Yeah, they are so nasty. And that cage, oh, needs cleaned and -- ooooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ugh.

KC Wright: Anyway, they belong in the great outdoors.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, they do, where God created them to be. Yes. Little Bunny Foo Foo -- we all know the song -- he doesn't live in your living room.

KC Wright: But, you know, as parents, we end up taking care of the pets --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

KC Wright: -- not the kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

KC Wright: But anyway, yeah, I've got lots of Easter memories. But I will tell you -- you know how much I love Christmas. I love Easter even more.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I do too. Well, it's the pinnacle of our faith.

KC Wright: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's where it all matters. And that's why I think, KC, it's so important for us just to take a minute and really behold the Lamb, behold him.

And part of the reason I wanted us to behold the Lamb -- well, I mean, those were the words of John the Baptist -- right? -- when he's baptizing and he sees Jesus walking up. And, like, with this astonishment in his voice, he says, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." And I think what we need to realize is all Jesus had done at that point was walk up. We think, well, when he died on the cross, he took away our sins. No. His whole reason for existence here incarnate was to take away the sins of the world.

That's what he's done for us, y'all. That's why we need to behold the Lamb.

And, you know, I was thinking, KC, because -- I was part of a Bible study called "The Names of God." It'll be out in August of this year. It's a Lifeway product with many authors, you know, like Kristi McClelland, Kelly Minter --

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- me, several others. Okay. And I got to teach on the Lord of Hosts, which meant I also used Psalm 46. Well, there's this verse in Psalm 46:8 that says, "Come behold the works of the Lord." And then it goes on to list how he makes desolations in the earth, how he cuts the spear in two, he breaks the bow in half, he burns the chariot with fire, like, he explains the works of the Lord. But the first part of that verse says, "Just come behold the works of the Lord."

And as I really studied that, I thought we have to conscientiously fixate on, focus on, behold the works of the Lord, behold the Lamb, because what we behold, we will be held by. Like, what we attach our gaze to, what we fix our mind on is going to hold our attention. It's going to hold our very souls --

KC Wright: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- our very essence, you know, when you think about it.

So in college I was a psych major, so I'm always loving psychology theories. And this whole concept of beholding something so that you will be held by it, I mean, psychology proves it out. There's this thing called the mere exposure effect. Okay.

So this originated in the '60s. And what it asserts is that the more that we're exposed to something -- okay? -- the more we like it. So in other words, familiarity is going to breed preference. So that means you just keep repeating your exposure to something and it's going to increase your desire for that thing. All right?

Now, here's the dark side. That is also going to apply to unvirtuous familiarities. Like, whatever you behold, you're going to be held by. So just think of the negative side of that, what that means. We all know what that means.

And so that means we've got to keep just increasing our exposure to God's works, to God's Son, to God's truth. We got to behold the Lamb. Because what we behold, we will be held by. It's like we just need to get enamored by Jesus, you know, just captivated by him, and then he will hold our hearts.

And so that's what the purpose of Easter is. Yes, we behold the works of the Lord, that the power of God raised Jesus from the dead. Yes, we behold the works of the Lord, that God himself became man, sacrificed himself for us so that we could know him. Yes, we behold the works of the Lord, we behold the Lamb.

And the fact that Jesus, the Lamb of God, he was the only one who could carry our sins and who could bear our sins. And that means, our friends, when we behold the Lamb, we are going to be held by the truth; therefore, we don't have to carry our sin anymore. We don't have to bear the heavy load of our sin because Jesus did it for us.

So as you're contemplating that, I'm just going to ask KC to pray over us just a brief prayer that we will behold the Lamb. And as he gets to the end of that prayer, you're going to begin to hear Layne Victoria sing over us to let the eyes of our heart really behold the Lamb.

KC Wright: Father, we love you so much. I pray that we would all keep our eyes locked on you, the author and the finisher of our faith. That we would fall more in love with you like never before. That we would be like Paul, who said, "For my determined purpose is to know you." That is beholding you and being held by you.

Lord, we love you. We thank you for Easter. We thank you for Resurrection Sunday. We thank you that we can boldly say, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" Because when death stung death, it stung itself to death, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, Lord.

KC Wright: Father God, we thank you that you defeated death, you defeated hell, you defeated the grave, and we behold you today. We love you, we praise you, we glorify you. We thank you that you're our risen King, our risen Savior. We love you, Jesus. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Layne Victoria (Singing):

You spoke the world in motion, breathed life into the void.
You speak from on your throne and all nature knows your voice.

The Word made flesh among us, Creator cloaked in rags.
Fulfilled the Father's purpose, the plan of ages past.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.
Saints and angels crying worthy, all praise unto the Lamb.

Pure hands that hold all power on a cursed Roman cross.
And in that sacred hour, we thought all hope was lost.

But you trampled death and darkness, put every foe to shame.
You rose to life victorious and all shall know your name.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.
Saints and angels crying worthy, all praise unto the Lamb.

One day we'll stand in glory, behold Him face to face.
We'll tell the wondrous story, by his stripes we're saved.

We'll join the song of heaven, O crown the King of Kings.
The gates of hell will tremble at the sound of the redeemed.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.
Saints and angels crying worthy, all praise unto the Lamb.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.
Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.

This Gospel won't be silenced, your kingdom stands through time.
We trust our Rock the Lion, all honor be to Christ.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy,

The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.