Jennifer Rothschild Show: What if You Prayed the Same Prayer Every Day? with Matt Smallbone

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Matt Smallbone: This phrase stood out to me that had been hiding in plain sight, which was the phrase that a kind of a reluctant or a not very good pray-er needed to see. Jesus literally says that, tells the disciples, "This then is how you should pray."

And I realized, you know what, I've never actually tried praying the Jesus way. I've done almost everything else, committed my entire life to trying to live out the teachings from the Sermon on the Mount as best as I can, but I'd never actually tried praying the way Jesus told us to pray.

So I said, you know what, I'm gonna give it a year and see what we can learn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, welcome everybody. I'm so glad you're here at the Jennifer Rothschild Show. You know why you're here? Because this is where thoughtful people come to grow.

And oh, today we're talking about something good because it deals with one of our biggest struggles. You know what that is?

Prayer. I don't know about you, but I have those questions. Am I doing it right? Am I doing it enough? And is God even listening? You know what I'm talking about.

In fact, I know you know because the podcast that was titled The 4:13— anytime, anytime I did a podcast on prayer, it was our highest downloads. So I know this is going to meet you where you are today.

Well, today we are going to hear that author and pastor Matt Smallbone, well, he's dealt with the same struggles and questions, and he did something radical.

You're not gonna believe this, but he prayed the Lord's Prayer every single day for an entire year. Yes, he's gonna tell you how it turned out, how it changed his life, and what he learned that you can even apply today to help you grow. And also, Oh, it's going to get even better because worship leader, musician, songwriter, my friend Michael O'Brien, he's going to sing the Lord's Prayer over us.

It's going to be a really good day. So I'm so glad you choise to join— you choise— I'm so glad you chose to join us here. Now listen, let me tell you something about prayer that I learned early on.

It's not so much how you do it, it's just that you do it. And so there was this little boy who used to come to our house all the time because his mama worked here, and he was a sweet little thing. I guess he was maybe 4 years old, and he was just learning how to pray.

And so, like, we'd sit down for lunch, you know, we'd all tell God thank you for our food. And so he would put his hands together under his chin, he squint his eyes closed as tight as possible. And so this particular day, you know, we asked, hey, do you want to pray, Parker?

Do you want to say the blessing yourself? And he reluctantly finally decides to pray, and he starts, "Dear God, thank you for our food." And then he pauses because he can't remember how to land the plane and close the deal. And finally he goes, "Thank you for our food..."

"...You da man!" Instead of amen, "You da man!" I've never forgotten it because don't you know that God smiled when he heard it? And really, what a beautiful way to end. You're just saying, hey, it's yours.

You're the man. You're the one, God. And I think that's what you're gonna learn today from Matt, that prayer is about God, but it changes us and it opens this beautiful relationship.

So just in case you are not sure who Matt is, you've already heard his voice and you may go, "Oh yeah, I know that voice." Yes, he's from Australia. And Matt actually spent over a decade as a musician. He was a bass player and he played for artists like Michael W. Smith, Rebecca St. James, For King and Country. And now he is the lead pastor of the Church of the City in downtown Nashville. And he's married and he's got 4 kids and 1 rescue dog named Rosie.

So you are gonna love this conversation like I did. Now you'll know who's who because he has the Australian accent and I have the quite boring American one. So settle in and enjoy Matt Smallbone.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Matt. I'm so glad that we get to be together.

I had forgotten, you know, when I first heard your voice, I told you, oh, how much I love your accent, that you don't even have to be smart and you'll sound brilliant. So well done being born in the right place.

Matt Smallbone: You know, I, I don't think Australians think we sound that much smarter than everybody else, but it is a bit of a perk of living in the south of the United States, for sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm sure it is. It is a perk. Well, it's lovely to listen to, but I happen to know because I have reviewed what you're going to talk about Oh, this is going to be so life-giving no matter what your accent.

So I cannot wait to hear about this because your book is called The Prayer Experiment, and my understanding is that it came from you praying the Lord's Prayer for one solid year every day. So I want to know, like, what gives? Give us a backstory. What led you to do such a thing?

Matt Smallbone: Well, I am a pastor, so I'm the lead pastor of Church of the City in downtown Nashville. We got a couple congregations across the city, and I'm in the, the downtown one. We got a, a vibrant young congregation, bunch of 20 and 30-year-olds, um, figuring out life.

And, uh, we, we team teach, uh, with all of our churches across the city. We're always in the same scripture. And every now and then there's a sermon series that you have some mastery over, and, and every now and then one comes up where you've got a lot to learn.

And I will say, on January 1st, 2025, I was feeling, um, a bit of imposter syndrome because we were about to jump into 21 Days of Prayer and Fasting, which is fine, we've been doing that for years, but we're about to teach 7-week series on the Lord's Prayer. And so I've loved Jesus for, for very many years, closing in on 30 years now. But I was carrying around— just not really a secret— but I love Jesus and I'm not very good at prayer.

And I knew this. And so you got two options as a pastor. You either kind of fake it and wordsmith the heck out of your stories or something, or you kind of own it and learn alongside your congregation.

So that is what we did. So I taught the 7-week series in the Lord's Prayer. I took on the posture of a learner and this phrase stood out to me that had been hiding in plain sight, which was the phrase that a kind of a reluctant or a not very good prayer needed to see.

Jesus literally says that, tells the disciples, 'This then is how you should pray.' And I realized, you know what, I've never actually tried praying the Jesus way. I've done almost everything else, committed my entire life to trying to live out the teachings from the Sermon on the Mount as best as I can, but I'd never actually tried praying the way Jesus told us to pray.

So I said, you know what, I'm going to give it a year. And see what we can learn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so when you did this, Matt— which, may I just pause here and say, I appreciate your admission because I feel the same way. I teach scripture and prayer is hard for me. I'm not disciplined with it.

I'm one of those desperate prayers. I, I get really good at my prayer life when things get bad, but when things are well, I just— I— it's hard. It's just not— I get it. I think a lot of us do.

Matt Smallbone: I'm learning there's a lot of us who are very— we love Jesus and we're just very haphazard in our prayer life. And, you know, for most of us, unanswered prayer is a bit of a barrier. Others of us like personality-wise.

Like, I've often wondered whether I just don't have the right personality to be good at prayer, because every now and then in my line of work someone suggests maybe a silent retreat might be the answer, and I'm just like, oh, I'm just not— I'm just not wired for that stuff.

So my, my prayer life as a pastor has been these fits and spurts of like trying to get up at 4 AM and pray for a couple of hours, and I can pull it off for 2 days, and then I just kind of, you know, give up, despondent. So I think there's a lot of us out there, is what I've learned since writing this book, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think I think that's super important that we're acknowledging that right up front, because that means this is a very welcome conversation for all of us. Because even those who are really quote unquote good at prayer, and I'm using that phrase so loosely, we still need this because there's so much more. When you think about that, Jesus says, this is the deal, this is how you pray.

Okay, then we want to understand that better. But I'm curious for you personally, so knowing that maybe your relationship with prayer was a little haphazard or difficult, How did praying the Lord's Prayer every day for a whole year impact your prayer life and your perception of prayer?

Matt Smallbone: Yeah, well, the surprise twist was it kind of realigned everything for me. So I now have this great conversational relationship with God that I was missing. I realized I was coming to prayer really like I think most of us Westerners do, with a very hyper-individualistic mindset, that my job is to try and convince God to do stuff for me the way I want him to do stuff for me.

And that's a recipe for disappointment for sure. So I've I've really learned that my relationship with Jesus has moved from being lived almost entirely in my head and through social justice as well with my hands, but it's really moved my heart that I have this kind of really close friendship with God now. But what has really changed is it gave me the right framework for praying.

I've prayed every framework, read every prayer book that isn't on the Lord's Prayer, uh, it turns out, and there's just something about the way— it's only that Jesus understands the human soul and knows the process that we need to go through when interfacing with the God of the universe. It's just changed a lot about my hard, but it's also been just kind of so rewarding because I've relearned actually what prayer is, is meant to be and what it, what it isn't meant to be.

Jennifer Rothschild: And how kind that Jesus would tell his disciples and us, okay, so when you pray, this is what you say. I mean, that's a gift. That's a gift to repeat those words.

And then we're going to unpack more of that, what that actually— how that began to be fleshed out in your life. But you mentioned something already that I kind of want to— I think we need to address, because you talked about barriers.

Matt Smallbone: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So obviously a lot of do. And so I'm curious if you, in your studying prayer, maybe with your congregation, you discerned what maybe some of the most typical ones are. But, but even like, it might be easier to see them in someone else's life, but how do we identify them in our own lives and then overcome them?

Matt Smallbone: Yeah, so I mean, I think it's an honest conversation of, of— you start with like, why, why is prayer so difficult for me? So for me, I've named a couple of things already, like I don't really have this easily, naturally contemplative art to me. Like, I, I like to fill my life with noise and fun and busyness rather than silence.

And that is a barrier. That's a legitimate barrier. Sometimes I've wondered over the years where I'm afraid to be left alone with my own thoughts for too long because I— sometimes it tends to get dark when that happens.

Um, I think unanswered prayer is a massive barrier for most people. As I was writing this book, I realized that I really stopped praying after a miscarriage. And so I went through a season.

I was a touring bass player, we're living in the United States at this point, and we're doing a West Coast tour. And we live in Nashville, Tennessee, and the West Coast tours, you're always away for a couple of weeks. And my wife was at home looking after 3 little boys, and we just found out we were pregnant.

And while I was on the West Coast and unable to get home, playing worship music nonetheless, Mary miscarried. And I had my phone on silent in the hotel room, and it was just this like, you've got to be kidding me, God, I've given my life to serving you. What is the deal?

And so I threw up some pretty hectic, impassioned prayers as we were losing this baby on different sides of the country. And at that point, I think I just became very pragmatic in my faith. Like, I, I do believe that— I never stopped believing that God is good, that Jesus is kind, and wants what's the best for me.

I also have this— believed in and still do— the theological concept of sovereignty, which is that God can do all things. And so I just kind of got a bit pragmatic about it and went, listen, if God's not gonna do what I ask on the real important things like this, I ultimately do trust that he's good. Well, I think I might just stop asking for things.

And so that was— it was kind of a— and there was really several years after that where, uh, to say that my prayer life was haphazard would probably be a real overstatement. It was— it was just really, really just stopped at that point. So for a lot of people, I think the unanswered prayers and coming to God with these things that we think are really important and they don't turn out the way we want them to in that moment. I think that's a big barrier for a lot of people as we get older and the disappointments stack up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I agree. Well, and I, I think too sometimes that's my own self-protection because I don't want God to disappoint me. And sometimes it's trying to protect him.

Okay, God, I don't want you to look bad. So if, if I'm gonna pray for something and you don't answer, at least it's going to be between you and me, right? It's so complicated.

And you mentioned the word sovereignty, and So that would be another thing that sometimes for me is a barrier, and I'm curious your take on it. Well, if God is sovereign and he knows, what the heck am I going to be asking for and trying to change his mind? He is immutable.

So I get kind of confused with the whole doctrine of God sometimes with prayer. Talk to me about that. How do you manage that?

Matt Smallbone: Well, it's very complicated, and I would just want to say that what I'm about to say, I may disagree with 5 years from now when we're listening back on this.

Like, this is a— This is definitely a journey, and it's very nuanced, and it just— I think we'll be thinking about these things for the rest of our lives. Yeah, I do think that I am grateful for almost all of the unanswered prayers that have happened in my life, probably with the exception of this miscarriage.

But when you think about all the things you pray for when you're younger, like I, I mentioned this in the book, if all of my prayers had been answered as a child, I'd currently be divorced from Madonna and working at a circus, you know. It's like those some things I prayed about with a lot of passion as a fourth grader, you know. So I, I think we, we spent a lot of time praying for things that aren't, quote, in Jesus' name.

And that's an important part of it. Jesus talks a lot about the things we pray for in Jesus' name he will do. Like, the Gospel of John is full of that.

It was also really frustrating to read all that stuff after we lost this baby. But the whole in Jesus' name thing was never meant to be a magic incantation that you, you throw on the edge— on the end of a prayer to kind of, you know, coerce God into doing stuff. That was actually how the pagans prayed, and Jesus said, don't pray like that.

And so that's— that was a big part of it for me. Like, just a lot of the things I've prayed for in my life, and I think this accounts for probably 99% of my disappointment in prayer, are things that actually weren't good for me. And in Jesus' name actually means aligned with the nature of God.

And there's a— you know, I pray for stuff all the time that I think I need today or tomorrow that just ultimately wouldn't be the best thing for me. It's— I think a lot of my prayer life is, is a bit like a 3-year-old demanding Red Bull from their parents. And, and you just can't believe— I think that's the price of doing business with a higher power and being invited into conversations, you know. It's like we're— we are literally toddlers coming to this fully formed, bright, brilliant being.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Matt Smallbone: And we're demanding Red Bull before bed and getting disappointed. So I, I think that accounts for almost all of it. There's 1% that's a real mystery to me.

I will just say that I have found peace 15 years later, past this, um, you know, post this. But for anyone who's gone through miscarriage, I'm very aware I don't want to say anything trite or easy because it's, you know, there's a number of couples in our church right now going through miscarriage, and it is, it's, it's an absolute tragedy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it is. And yes, and it's not something— it's, it's one of those difficult sentences in life that doesn't have a period. It's an ellipsis.

You just process it differently as you age in every season. Yeah, I'm curious though, Matt, because what you're describing here, this whole in Jesus' name thing— I love you mentioning it's not like our superpower, yet there is power obviously in the name of Jesus. And I also appreciate the nuanced way you present this, and, and it's important for us to listen with grace because, yeah, we're all in process.

And, and, but here's one thing that, that I keep going back to. So let's say a lot of our listeners, some may be in a church tradition where they do liturgies all the time, like that is so normal to them, they read prayers. A lot of them are not, and they're doing the O Holy Spirit, come down, Holy Ghost, all that kind of stuff.

Okay, so do you risk— if you are praying the Lord's Prayer every day, how do you risk it not becoming a formula? Because for what you just said, it increased your heart relationship with Jesus.

Matt Smallbone: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how do you manage that balance?

Matt Smallbone: Yeah, so I use it as a framework. I went into this whole experiment going, I'm gonna try and figure out how to make this work for my personality. So I banned myself from getting up at 4 AM and praying for 2 hours at a time.

I was gonna do that. And then what I learned along the way is the Lord's Prayer really is a framework for all of your prayers. It's one prayer.

I still haven't come across a situation in my life in the last 18 months where the Lord's Prayer hasn't been everything that I've needed it to be. So what I do is I use it as a framework. The Lord's Prayer is in two halves.

The first half, which we all miss, is direct— prayer is meant to begin directed at God. And then the second half has a human, has an us focus more so than a me focus, by the way. And there's a lot to that.

But there are 6 movements in the Lord's Prayer. And so what I do is I just pray each movement like it's in in the book of prayer, and then I pray what I got after that. So I mostly pray reacting to a situation that's going on in my life.

So if I'm worried about one of my kids, I'll start with our Father who is, who is close. Our Father who is in the heavens is the literal translation, and a lot of theologians have caught that that is also translated as in the air. You know, it's a God who is as close as the air around me.

Uh, holy is your name, I revere you. So I'll start with that. Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.

I'll say, God, I just admit you're close right now, and I know you're my kid's father and you're my father, and I know you care for all of us. And I just ask that you would be the good father that I need in this situation. And I just want to say I respect you and I'm wanting to hear from you today.

And then you move on to the next bit, uh, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And then you just go, God, I'm about to ask you for something very specific for my kid, but I said I submit my will to yours. I want the way the kingdom that you are king of and the rules in your kingdom, I want them to be true in my life.

And I ultimately, I'm going to ask you for something very specific here in about 10 seconds, but I submit my will to yours, and I pray that your will will be done because I acknowledge that you're brighter, bigger, and can see the full picture better than I can. And so really, it's, you know, my favorite language is— I'm borrowing from my friend John Tyson, Church in City, New York. He uses the phrase, pray what you got.

And so I just kind of read the prayer, you know, well, I've got it memorized by now, actually, because the 5-year-old. That's part of the genius. But you do the bit and then you, you throw in your own words.

And I pray this— well, I actually prayed this prayer several times a day and still do. I didn't stop after the year. Um, and it's anywhere between 2 minutes and, I mean, 10 minutes probably is about as long as it goes. And just kind of hit it at different parts of the day.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. It's beautiful because, yes, calling it a framework— that, I love it. It's like you've just, just described, here's the architecture you know, the architecture of my prayer.

But dude, I decorate it like according to my personality. And, and that's important because I think what happens to us is we think there's one way, there's a formula. In fact, I'll tell you this, um, prayer podcasts are always our highest downloads, and I think it's because deep down we think we are like not doing it right, or there is just one way, one formula, and then we haven't figured it out yet.

So talk to us about that. Is there really just one way, or are we failing if we're doing it a certain way. I—

Matt Smallbone: Well, what also stood out to me when I'm teaching this prayer series to my, to my congregation is that there is actually two ways not to pray. So Jesus is very clear about that before he jumps in the Lord's Prayer. He says, don't pray like Pharisees, um, and you don't pray like pagans.

And so the Pharisees kind of— I think to, to do the hermeneutical work to bring it to 2026 is, is a bit like kind of praying for praying a spiritual TED Talk in front of a room so that everyone's looking at you thinking you're really smart. So don't do that. What a challenge that is for a preacher, by the way, you know, because it feels like that's part of the job.

Um, and, and then don't pray like a pagan, which is use all these kind of babbling words and just try and get the phrases right so that you can kind of turn God into a cosmic vending machine to get your way. So God says don't pray like that. I don't think there's just one way to pray.

I do think though you've got to pay attention to— if you've never tried it. Jesus literally says, this then is how you should pray. And I don't know how to get around that.

Literally, Jesus said it. So what, what's brilliant about the prayer is the movements. You start with adoration, then you submit your will before you ask for anything, and then you ask for daily bread, and you get really specific about what you think you need, uh, for that day.

But it doesn't stop there. Then Jesus says, every time you should pray. And this is— this was the— this was the greatest benefit for me in this, this whole experiment, is that do several times a day now.

I forgive people. I ask God to forgive me of something that has happened in the last couple of hours, and then I also forgive someone else for something that has happened in the last couple of hours. And Jesus says you should do that every time you pray.

But Jesus really, when you get beneath his teachings on forgiveness, really teaches it should be regular and unlimited. And I've never really approached forgiveness that way. It was kind of like when I was weighed down with enough unforgiveness, I'd forgive the easiest person just so I could, I could stand up a little straighter.

So you forgive every day, and then there's this whole bit about deliver us from evil. As a good Methodist, we never did spiritual warfare in my prayers ever. It was not— I was naturally not— never actually drawn to that.

But now every day I'm like, God, I know there's a target on my back, and would you, would you protect my children? There is, there's just some genius about the scaffold of this prayer that covers. So what I will say is, of course, you can pray in the other You've got to find a way to do gratitude, by the way.

I got in a bit of a— got a bit of a funk where it's not obvious where gratitude fits in in this prayer. But there is something beautiful about saying— and it's actually in the first line, is probably the best place to do it— hallowed be your name, thank you for all the good things. There's something beautiful.

What I did miss is my prayers always began with like, God, thank you for today, thank you for my family. I missed that bit for a little bit, and I think that that's an important part of it here.

But again, I haven't had any situation in the last 18 months where this hasn't been really the perfect framework that has helped me more completely pray through a situation because normally I would just ask God for stuff and be disappointed when I didn't get my way. And now it's like, man, you go from that to asking for forgiveness and forgiving somebody, jumping into spiritual warfare.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Matt Smallbone: Asking God not— don't allow this thing to break me. It's just a more complete way. And I think us Westerners left on our own, we just— again, we just pray for the very specific thing that we want our way. And this prayer, this prayer just breaks all of that apart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh man, there's so many things. I would, I would love to ask you, and I'm so glad you've written the book because I know I personally want to dive deep. Because even that concept of forgiveness, frequently, every time you pray— you're not convinced God answers prayer, pray that every day.

Forgive me, help me to forgive those who have messed up with me. I mean, wow, God's ready to answer. Okay, but, uh, there's so many things, like I said, but I'm gonna have to get to our last question just because of time.

So I am recommending the book so highly. Okay, no, I do have to ask you one more question before the last. Okay, I just do.

There's not a lot of eye language in the Lord's Prayer. And when you mention that about us Westerners, it's me, my four, and no more usually when we pray. So how did praying the Lord's Prayer and that sense of communal, um, petition impact you?

Matt Smallbone: I think, you know, our Catholic brothers and sisters all don't call it the Lord's Prayer, they call it the Our Father. And I think they're on to something because that opening phrase just frames up the whole thing beautifully. It's a reminder that in this prayer we're not only children children.

We can't just only child our way in our relationship with our Heavenly Father, and we don't always get what we want because there's other kids around here as well. So our Father is really important, and, and it really frames this up as a community prayer. But also, give us today our daily bread.

So you're also praying that your neighbors— you know, the pronouns really matter— give us our daily bread. You're praying that your neighbors and the people in your community will have enough as as well. So, I mean, I, I only prayed 1/6 of the way Jesus told us to pray. It turns out I'm a genius at asking God for stuff, but other than that, I was just missing some really important parts to what it means to have a really robust and thorough conversation with the Creator of the universe.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so inspiring. This is going to be a gift, and, and I appreciate— he is our Father, and we are brothers and sisters, and we need to come before him as that kind of family caring about each other. All right, this is our last question though, Matt.

We're gonna get to it here. All right, what What advice do you have? And obviously your advice is going to be based on what the Bible says.

To that person who's listened to all this, they're inspired, maybe even a little convicted, but they're like, dude, I am so reluctant because I'm just so bad at this. So like, what advice do you have to the person who feels like they're just a poor or reluctant prayer?

Matt Smallbone: Well, I would say if you do want to pray, just commit to getting that one thing right. Don't add in a bunch of other stuff as well. If you're going to try and get good at prayer, it's not also the right time to, you know, start trying to Sabbath properly every Saturday.

I have found for me at least, and for anyone wired like me, I need to do a spiritual practice until it fills me with joy and I want to do it. And that doesn't usually happen in the first few times for me. I think of it like, do you have any crazy CrossFit friends who just love getting up at 4 AM to lift heavy things?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes! I don't understand—

Matt Smallbone: Now, what I've realized— well, what I've realized is they're not built differently than you and me. They've just got through the initial discomfort and they legitimately love it because of the community and they love how they feel because of it. They're not doing it because it makes them as miserable as it makes you and me if we were to do it once a year.

It's actually become part of who they are and they've seen the benefit of it. So I just say, I would give yourself a month, give yourself 2 months, make it work with your schedule. Especially, listen, any stay-at-home parent or anyone with kids under the age of 2 or 3, you've just got on your stage of discipleship that you're in, and there's certain things you're not going to be able to do.

I love that story of John and Charles Wesley's mom in the kitchen. Do you know that one where she just covered her head with the tea towel and she said, "When the tea towel's over my head, I'm praying. Leave me alone."

Like, "Don't come to me." That's, that's one of the most baller things of all time. And I think that's really what it is. Make this work around your lifestyle.

It's best to create some quiet space. Jesus does say go to a room and close the door. That's the best way to do this.

But also he Jesus was kind of essentially homeless for much of his ministry as well, so he didn't actually have a room with a door most of the time. So I would just say give it— add this one thing in. I'd recommend praying through the Lord's Prayer if you've never done it before, remembering that this is Jesus legitimately said, this is actually how you should pray.

And do it until it brings you joy and you want to keep doing it. And just release yourself from adding in any new kind of spiritual practice until it fills you with joy.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know about you, but I was so inspired by that, right? So many seeds for thought. Let's try it.

I mean, just see what the Lord calls you to do. Would you be open to praying the Lord's Prayer every day? You don't have to commit to a whole year, but just try it for a week.

Try praying it several times a day, maybe with each meal. Just start small. Don't forget what Matt suggested.

We don't join the Olympics until we've run around the block a couple times. So be patient with yourself, just try it. And when you do pray it, remember you're using the Lord's Prayer as a framework, not a formula.

And by the way, if you wanna go a little deeper, I just realized I'm part of a Bible study called When You Pray with several other of your favorite Lifeway authors like Jen Wilkin and Kristi McLelland and Kelly Minter, Jackie Hill Perry. Y'all, it is so good. But we talk about the different prayers in the Bible.

That might help you also feel a little less intimidated about prayer, if that's a thing for you, it's going to help you. So there's so much available for prayer, and of course everything you're going to need is going to be on the show notes. So check them out, especially check out Matt's book on the show notes.

All right, now it's time to actually pray together, and our dear brother Michael O'Brien is going to lead us in the Lord's Prayer. So, Michael, let's pray.

Michael O'Brien: Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. In heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom, In the power, in the glory, forever. Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: Uncomplicating Adult Children Relationships with Dr. Kathy Koch

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Dr. Kathy Koch: It's hard, but comment on what's going well. I'm a former educator, even a former professor, and I can tell you that a parent or a student who only shared the negative with me was much harder to listen to than a parent or a student who shared affirmation and then also had correction. So I just, human nature is, man, here she comes again with that red pen.

So look for what's going well and trust them to God, right? Like, don't put your hope in your kids to raise your grandkids. Put your hope in God and ask that he would break through any barrier, that he would speak clearly to them about his ways and his will and his wisdom.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome to the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow, and that includes you. So I'm so glad you're here today, 'cause today we're talking about relationships.

With adult children. We're gonna hear from an expert, Dr. Kathy Koch, and she's gonna touch on like how to resolve conflict, how to manage boundaries, and really importantly, how to develop friendships between parents and adult kids. So you might be a parent of an adult child, or maybe you're the adult child and you wanna learn about your relationship with your parent. Listen, this is good for all of us because can we be honest?

No one told us that this kind of relationships could be complicated or hard or even painful sometimes. But oh, my friend, there is hope and there is help. So settle in and get comfy because we're going to learn about this today.

I'm glad you chose to be here. And you may know that this is new. This is the second an episode of the Jennifer Rothschild Show.

And I get it, you may not have been here last week, or you have been a part of the 4:13 Podcast for the last 7 years and you're wondering what's happening. So I'll just remind you, it is the same great content of the 4:13 Podcast. We just made some changes.

We've changed the name, we've got a new sound as you heard, we got a new look, we just rearranged a couple of things. So that means all the things you love, like the great content, there's just the family vibe that we've got around here. KC All of us are still going to be around, just things are a little rearranged.

So today we're going to hear from an expert and she's going to be talking about adult relationships. Now it's been a good week around here for me because not only are we talking about the book on adult relationships by Dr. Kathy Koch, but I've got a new book and I just needed to give you a quick shout out and tell you about it. It is called Heaven for Today.

It's a devotional on heaven, and you can find it to purchase it or to learn more about it at heavendevo.com or at the Jennifer Rothschild Show podcast. But y'all, it is gonna be just a beautiful gift to you to help you live heaven now. The promises of heaven, they're not just for tomorrow, they are for right now, and they're gonna boost you, give you hope, give you an eternal perspective.

It's all new material, mostly new material if you've done the Heaven Bible study. It's a gift to you from my heart. So I hope you'll check it out because I'm just super thankful for it.

It's not only inspiring content, but it's a beautiful presentation also. So, okay, but speaking of books, we're not going to be talking about heaven. We're going to talk about adult children today.

Now, it used to be simpler when they were little. Remember, remember that, you parents? Remember how simple it used to be?

Well, I've got a reminder for you because my husband, Phil, he was driving with some grandkids in the vehicle. We've got several, and this time John Robert was 4 years old.

He's in the back seat, and I just want you to hear how simple and delightful this was. So sit in the front seat with my honey, Dr. Phil, and listen to his conversation with one of our grandsons, little Johnny.

Phil Rothschild: The boys were telling me, and specifically John— Johnny was telling me that— what's his name?

John Robert: Jesse

Phil Rothschild: Jesse can whistle even though he's 4. That's pretty amazing. And then Johnny said he can whistle a kind of too. Go ahead, Johnny.

John Robert: [Makes high pitched sound]

Phil Rothschild: That's his whistle. I like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, they do grow up and things can get a little wonky sometimes. So that's why Dr. Kathy is with us today. Let me tell you who she is.

She is an incredible author and she is the founder of Celebrate Kids, where she trains parents to love well, lead wisely, trust God deeply, and genuinely enjoy their kids no matter what age they are. She lives in Fort Worth, Texas, and she has written 9 books, including the one we're talking today, which is titled Resolve Conflict and Find Peace with Adult Children. Mm, good stuff.

So let's settle in and listen to Dr. Kathy Koch.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Dr. Kathy, I told you off mic that I am sorry to say this is a really relevant topic that we need to talk about today. And I actually am sorry to say it's relevant, but I'm grateful we're talking about it because I have adult kids and I have friends with adult kids.

And unfortunately, I hear way too often, you know, that their hearts are broken, their relationship with their kids are strained, and, and Well, I would just put it this way, like their adult kids have unfriended them, you know what I'm saying? So what gives?

Can you give us an understanding? Why is this seeming to be epidemic proportions right now?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Well, first of all, I want to say thank you for having me on the show. I've admired you for years, so I'm excited to be here. And I agree with you, I wish we didn't have to talk about this, but you know, praise God that he shares his insights, and, and here we are.

Um, you know, there are adult children who are remembering the past badly. They are being told by therapists, counselors, social media followers, or people they're following you know, that, oh, that couldn't have possibly happened that way.

So they're beginning to believe a lie, which is really, really sad, um, you know, giving up on parents, parents who were imperfectly perfect for them, who they now are exaggerating the faults about. So that's a big problem and really sad.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, big time sad. And I, and I'm seeing it.

In fact, I was just talking with somebody who's another author who has a book coming out on this, and he's looking at it from a pastoral perspective on helping the parents because he's seeing it as such an epidemic. He even said he thinks this youth, which is I think what you have referred to He calls them over-therapized or something like that.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, because they've just gotten perhaps bad counsel about their past.

Dr. Kathy Koch: That's a really good point, Jennifer. And another thing that's happened is that what we— what I'm seeing in the research and our— my process here is that many young people who were helicoptered as children have distanced themselves from their parents because they don't think their moms can parent any other way. So it's preventative for people who are listening who don't yet have a problem, like, praise God.

And if you start to back away now and let them transition into adulthood and into some freedom, then perhaps they're going to stay with you as they become older adults. If you've helicoptered and you overmanaged and you overcontrolled, they don't want that now. Now they want to grow up.

Now they need to grow up, and they don't think you can do it differently. So maybe you apologize and say, man, I understand now how my direction might have come across as disrespectful. That's not what I meant, but I'm going to learn to kind of back away and, and share less frequently if that's what you need.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay, that's good. See, that's good advice, and we're going to get to some more of that. So, because I just— oh, I just see this is so relevant.

Okay, so one of the things you say, Dr. Kathy, that I appreciated— so obviously parents, I'm a parent, I'm always going to be a parent, right? But you say that parent is my noun, okay? And children, our kids, are always going to be our kids.

But you write that parents of adult children cannot use parent as a verb unless they're invited. Okay. Oh, I love it. Unpack it.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Hey, thanks for loving that. That's cool. Yeah, again, they don't want advice, instruction, control, management. They want support, guidance, help, friendship. Hopefully that's going to happen as we continue to walk with them. So yeah, you're not a parent verb unless they ask.

If they say, you know, Dad, I'm struggling in my job, I know you had a season where you were really struggling with your boss. How did you end up deciding what to do? Like if they ask you, praise God, and then share with them, you know, succinctly what happened.

If they don't ask, but you observe it, make yourself available. Praise, certainly. Look for teachable moments, but keep your mouth shut and simply walk with them and look for opportunities to be a coach, a cheerleader, a mentor, a guide, a support system, and wait to be invited into the conversation.

If you don't, it sounds like criticism when you do, and it's unsolicited, and it's not gonna be heard well. But it's hard. It's so hard, Jennifer. Because if you've been always giving your input, then it's hard, but I'm asking you to believe that this might be a game changer for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you said the word earlier, disrespectful. They are, you know, I'm a mom of young men, and I mean, early on I was like, "Lord, help me to never do anything that would come across emasculating to them." I happen to be blind too, so one of my things was, "Help me to raise them in such a way that I don't make them think they have to rescue every woman."

Like, you know, "Lord, help me to be strong and independent." because I want them to have healthy relationships with women, not swoop in and try to be the fixer. And I realized how important it was for them to feel respected early on.

I don't think we realize that sometimes as parents. So give us a little bit of tangible advice here. So let's say there's a mama going, uh-oh, um, I'm a parent of adult children, and yeah, listen, Willis, I can tell they're not doing it right, you know, like they need my advice, but I'm gonna try to be the noun, not the verb.

How do they coach? Like, how can they enter into relationship and still have coaching without blurring the are being disrespectful?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right, such a good question. Again, I think we ask for permission to share. We observe and we say, man, I've noticed a few things.

Are you interested in my input? If not, hey, that's okay. And then it has to be okay, like, if they say, hey, not yet, because ultimately, don't we want them to figure it out?

Don't we want them to launch well and be independent? Like, I want them to be dependent and independent at the same time, right? God ordained the family before he ordained the church, so the family is super relevant.

I don't want them to ever, you know, totally walk away, but I also don't want them to need you when they're 45. What are they gonna do when you're gone? So I think we ask for permission, we indicate we've got something to share, are you interested?

And you know what else, Jennifer? We have to understand that different isn't always bad. Different is different.

And we have to understand that culture's different now, schooling is different, nutrition is viewed as being different, et cetera, et cetera. So maybe we ask some questions. Maybe we say, man, you are doing it differently.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Can you help me understand why? And we avoid things like, "We didn't raise you this way." Oh my goodness, like, they know you didn't raise them that way.

And we don't have to say every time we see them, "Are you gonna go to church tomorrow?" They know that we want them to go to church. So again, we look for opportunities to speak up.

Hey, you know what? Our story doesn't lie. So we say things like, "Man, could I tell you about church the other day? It was amazing. Like the most vibrant service ever. The way that they honored mothers was the best I think I've ever seen.

And I've been to probably 46 Mother's Day services, you know?" So we share about our experiences hoping that they're going to want to know. No, they're going— they will want to know more as they respect us. But we, again, we're careful in those situations. I hope that comes across okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, that comes across great, because what I hear you saying is we're relating to them almost like peer-to-peer, adult-to-adult. Because I would not go to my neighbor and say, you should go to church, or why do you feed your children that? You know, that would not be my place.

So that's a really good paradigm to think about. Um, okay. So here's the thing that I see also though.

You mentioned the family is the most important, and before the church, God ordained the family. And so then our kids grow up and they marry and they're beginning a family.

And a lot of parents freak out over this and things get very confusing. So can you give us an idea of kind of like what you see most and tell us how parents can adapt to their children being married, especially if it's something they're not super comfy with?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right, that's so good. So let's pray early on for our children and potential spouses, right? Like I hear from parents all the time that they're praying for their child's spouse.

And then I say, are you praying for your child? Like, are you praying for your child to be ready for a spouse? Are you praying that they're ready for marriage?

Are you praying that they'll be humble and patient and properly submissive and properly, you know, as properly leading and following, et cetera, et cetera. And then, you know, when they marry, let's understand too that we don't fall in love overnight. So be patient with yourself.

Hopefully your children have married good partners and they share the faith and they share values. If not, of course, that's sad. You have a right to your sadness, and please grieve.

I have a whole chapter on grief. Grieve the loss of expectations, dreams, potential values, et cetera. Walk in and talk things out, but be careful, of course.

Choose to fall in love with the spouse. Choose to look for the good, not just the bad. I kinda joke about carrying around a green pen and not a red pen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right? Like, look for what's good, not just for what's wrong, bad, or different. And then get to know the in-laws, get to know the sisters and brothers of the spouse, get to know nieces and nephews.

Like, if you spend Christmas, Easter, Mother's Day, whatever together, July 4th picnic, choose to get to know the family members you don't know well yet. You know, tell me about your background, or what are some of your favorite family memories? You know, how important has faith been to you?

And get to know them, because that's respectful. And then hopefully from there you won't be, you know, looking badly on the next family conversation that you're going to have to have.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's a really good word. And basically you're also saying get outside yourself, don't make it all about you. Oh yeah, are they relating to me?

Um, I will say, and gosh, I know this is tender territory, so, um, I hope I don't misstep, but I have observed, um, with moms as they age. There are some moms who literally have an expectation of their adult children that is a little bit— I'm not sure based in reality as I would understand reality. Like, they expect their children are going to call them every day or every week. They don't -- they don't reach out to them. They expect to be served, called.

What they want for dinner is what everyone has every holiday. You know, talk to us who may be moms What is our right heart posture with our children?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh yeah, let's go to some hard places, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Well, you know, biblically we want them to cleave to their spouse, correct? We want them, like, especially if you have a son, like, you know, you've got these men that you've raised with your husband, praise God. You want them to seek the wife's counsel.

You want them to vent to a wife appropriately. You want them to say to a wife, "Man, I'm just conflicted about," "Help me make my next decision." If they continue to come to a mom or a dad instead of a spouse, that's not healthy.

If they choose a spouse and one or two parents, because parents have been proven to be, you know, good advisors, good teachers, they've got shared values and they're good sounding boards, you know, I think that's great. But man, I think one of the things I say in the book is if a child comes to you and vents or is asking for input, I would love for you to say first, Have you talked with Joni about this? You know, have you talked with Jason?

Like, let's not take the place of the spouse. And again, I write in the book, Jennifer, like, we miss our kids. Of course you miss your kids.

You used to be with them all the time. So again, grieve that and understand it's going to change. If you don't understand that and you hold on too tight, they will resist that.

It will not be respectful and they will run. And frankly, I don't blame them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. You know what it reminds me of back in junior high, the poster on my wall, "If you love something, let it go." You know?

But it's true. You gotta love 'em enough to lose, um, the, the level of relationship you might have had. But it's different, it just changes. Okay.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, uh, Dr. Kathy, here's, um, interesting because— so let's say we're okay with the spouse, everything's cool, kumbaya, Thanksgiving, but then they have children and we are watching these children we raise now parents, and we're like, what in the world, they are screwing up these grandkids, or they're not doing it right. Okay, we're not real happy So what do we do as adult parents?

Dr. Kathy Koch: This is so challenging. Again, we have a right to opinions. We have a right to even beliefs. Let's understand though, they're not our children. First thing I have to say here, they're not your children. They're your grandchildren.

And one of the things I heard over and over again in my interviews was the adult children who said, "Man, they disrespect. They walk into my house, they start cleaning without asking." and they come in and they question decisions we're making for the kids.

Like, why are they eating that? Why are they still up? Are you allowing him to game? Like, have you checked the quality of that literature? What about your school choice? Like, again, you know, they're not your kids.

And so what you're wanting is what, a cookie-cutter replication? But they're not your kids. So we're created in God's image, not ours. We're different. Let's understand that different is different. It might not be bad.

Let's get to know what they're doing. But seriously, if I heard it once, I heard it 1,000 times. They're not my children's parents, they're my children's grandparents.

And I want you to be grand. I want you to be a grand partner. I want you to be available. I want you to sing over them. I want you to be your grandchildren's cheerleaders. I want you to be your children's cheerleaders.

I want you to walk in again, like I said, and look for something that's going well, and then stay available. Like, Lord willing, they haven't separated from you yet, and you're available so that if they have crisis, they call you and you say, "Mom, you know, do you have any input, any advice, any instruction about what's going on?" And then you've earned the right to speak up because you haven't over-parented them or even tried to grandparent the kids.

I think, again, it's hard, but comment on what's going well. I'm a former educator, even a former professor, and I can tell you that a parent or a student who only shared the negative with me was much harder to listen to. Than a parent or a student who shared affirmation and then also had correction.

So I just, human nature is, man, here she comes again with that red pen. So look for what's going well and trust them to God, right? Like don't put your hope in your kids to raise your grandkids, put your hope in God and ask that he would break through any barrier, that he would speak clearly to them about his ways and his will and his wisdom.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, Dr. Kathy, you're good at this. You— the Lord has gifted you. I mean, the whole green pen is a good visual.

I want to be grand as a grandparent. That is— I mean, that's magnanimous. That's bigger than little. I mean, that's good. All that is a really good image. I love that.

And so most of our listeners are believers in Christ. And the other thing I hear from people— thankfully it's not my story at this moment— but there's a lot of parents whose adult kids have walked away from their faith.

So their hearts are broken, they're freaking out. What would you say to them?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Certainly first, I'm sad with you. Again, you have a right to your disappointment, even maybe some anger and fear. Don't parent from fear.

That's not biblical or healthy. Process your anger, process your grief. Recognize that most parents, I wonder if you'll agree with this, Jennifer, I think most parents look back with today's wisdom and judge themselves very harshly, and that's not healthy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Dr. Kathy Koch: So since you raised your children, how many Bible studies have you gone to, podcasts have you heard, prayers have you prayed, sermons have you listened to, et cetera, et cetera? So you're thinking, man, why didn't I do this better? Why didn't I know this?

I've had people say, you know, why didn't I have your book 10 years ago? Well, you didn't have your book. I only wrote it a month ago, you know? So, you know, but you have it now. And so we look forward with hope. We don't look back with big regrets.

We pray that someone will introduce them back into the culture of church and into a relationship with Christ. It might not be you. If you think it has to be you that wins them back to Christ or back to the church, that's idol worship of yourself.

And I don't say that lightly. It might not be you. Can you pray that a coach in the summer league would be a Christian?

Can you coach that a new hire where your son works would be a believer? Can you pray that they would stumble across a neighbor who's active in a nearby church and invites them and they say yes? And I can tell you stories of where that's happened.

So I think we're careful of looking back, we look forward, we pray for others to engage. We look for small growth. Look for small growth.

Friends of mine had a nephew who showed up for a Good Friday service. Of all services on Easter weekend, he chose Good Friday. And he loved it, and he stayed around and talked afterwards.

And he showed up for Easter and he stayed for lunch. And they hadn't done anything from a Christian perspective with him in, I think it was 11 years. And he just showed up.

And so pray and celebrate and expect it because God is good, and remember God loves them more than you do. I could talk, you know, as you know, there's a whole chapter on that. It's hard.

Pray and grieve. Get yourself surrounded by like-minded people. Don't live this alone.

Don't be in isolation. Be careful of the gossip prayer chain. A lot of the adult kids think that prayer is gossip, so be careful who you share with.

But don't live in isolation that you have a kid who has left the faith. Make sure you have somebody that you can share with, perhaps even a pastor or a small group leader would pray with you on a regular basis. That's going to comfort and encourage you big time.

Jennifer Rothschild: As I hear you talk too, I think sometimes too parents are ashamed, like, "How did I screw this up?" Or, or they're ashamed because they internalize what they consider failure, or they think it looks badly upon themselves if their children aren't in church. And neither one of those are worthy. Neither one.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Oh, totally, my friend. That's one of the things that I camp on often, whether I'm doing live speaking or in books that I write. It can't be about you. Many of us have been guilty of parenting so that we look good.

And I had an adult recently at a conference I did, this was so frightening, Jennifer. You know what she said to me? She picked up my book and she said, "I'm tired of being responsible for my mom's joy."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh my goodness.

Dr. Kathy Koch: She had felt, and I don't say that lightly, and I'm not, I don't want any listener to feel as they heard that, don't go to that shame and blame place. Go forward with hope. But this is, if you have idolized them and over-parented them and they were afraid to make mistakes for fear that you would look bad, that is a reality here.

And we just have to do that. Now, you can't go back and parent, so it's really stressful, and I realize that. But you can change forward and you can even apologize and say, "Man, I have a new revelation.

I realize that." You know, you're fragile and weak. Now, be careful of how you say that, but you know, you've even indicated that you feel weak, and I wonder if that's partly my fault because I didn't let you grow through the valleys.

Man, I've gotta grow up and change that. I trust you to walk out of valleys. You are mature and you're a wise thinker and you're creative, and man, I've diminished your possibilities by making it about me, and I'm disappointed in myself. Would you please give me another chance? That would be amazing if they would hear that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and I will say, I would think right there, that is humble, honest communication that we should receive from anyone. And I know there's lots of extra baggage that comes.

Like, I was even in a conversation with, with a parent once, and my husband overheard. He goes, why are you so upset? That was no big deal.

I said, oh no, you did not hear 70 years worth of things that I have heard, or have, you know, 50 years. But the point is, we have to take it, that present moment, and receive it humbly and speak it humbly based on the present moment, not throw all baggage from all our former mistakes into it, because it's not fair to either of us.

Dr. Kathy Koch: So that is so good. You know, Jennifer, if the mom or dad says it but it's not received, they still said it and owned it, and it's good for their heart and their spirit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Good word, Dr. Kathy.

Okay, so I was going to ask you about any communication hacks with our adult kids. You've given us a couple, but I think what would be even more helpful— are there some things that like we as parents should never Like, just don't say that to your child, your adult child.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Well, yeah, you know, "I told you so," or, "We raised you better than this." I think that's a really dangerous phrase. Understand that there's much that's influencing them now, and so you don't have to remind them of that.

It's, again, it's not about you, it's about them moving forward. I would say, not in direct answer to your question, but I would say listen to understand versus listen to judge, correct, and reply. Listen to understand, which means you say things like, hey, keep talking, I'd like to understand more about this.

Because the more that they tell you, the greater the likelihood that the first thing you say will be relevant. And now they're going to keep listening to you. So listen longer to understand, not to judge, correct, or reply.

And also, Jennifer, what about you statements versus I statements, right? So we say things like, you know, I'm disappointed when I don't hear from you. Especially when you tell me that you'll reach out.

Like you told me you'd let me know about the doctor's appointment. So I was expecting that you'd follow through and you didn't. I'm disappointed when you don't follow through versus you didn't tell me what happened at the doctor's office, right?

So that you statement sounds much more judgmental, much more pointed. And I know you wanna say it, you know, but for, and I actually joke in the book, like practice in front of the mirror, you know, I feel disappointed or I am sad when you don't follow through. Again, you have a right to your emotions.

But don't, you know, don't use it as a damaging kind of pointing finger to your kids who are older, who need your respect. But you have a right— again, how many times have I said it— you have a right here.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it's good you keep saying it because I appreciate the balance, because I think a parent could just assume all the guilt, say, okay, I blew it then, now I'm blowing it now, and I'm sure any problem with my adult child is my fault, which is untrue, okay? They can screw up too and be in sin. They are dirty rotten sinners just like we are.

So, you know, we can all mess up. So I do think that's important for us as parents, not to just assume it's always our fault, our responsibility, for the relationship issue. But we have the responsibility to respond in godliness no matter what.

And so, amen. I have a friend whose adult child— okay, so most of us who have, might have this issue, Dr. Kathy, are just like, it's kind of just messed up. Maybe it's fuzzy communication or awkward conflict or whatever.

But then there's some, like my friend, whose adult daughter has she cut her off when she got married. She cut off her mama when she got married.

My friend has never even met her grandchildren. Okay, what are some of the reasons in your experience that adult children literally just cut off ties with their parents?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Sadly, the new spouse can be very influential there. I just want to shake them, man. How rude of anyone to want a spouse to reject family of origin.

That's just— especially if they are believers, that's just ridiculous. Yeah, um, I think it's, it's fear. It's control.

You know, I, I want my values, I want my way or the highway. I don't want Dad and Mom to still be influential. So again, it's control, it's a wrong view of submission and leadership.

Certainly I would go there. Scared daughters who don't know how to speak up and stand up for themselves are probably a part of that action as well. Social media, whoever they're following that we don't even know they're following, that is, you know, these people are explaining you've got to view it this way, you're not viewing it correctly, and fall into that trap.

If they've been on social media their entire teen life, they think social media is the end-all and that those people know them better than even their parents. So I think it's easier for them to fall away. Now, again, there could be parents who were critical quickly, that were controlling, that maybe didn't love easily the spouse, and the husband is afraid of that and is judgmental toward that and says, man, you know, they don't, they don't like me, let's separate.

And he didn't give them a chance to get to like and then love them. And so It's just sad. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what does— no matter what the reason for the cut, what does an adult parent do? What can they do?

Dr. Kathy Koch: You grieve, and I mean it. You have to accept what is. You grieve what isn't. You reject the lies. You embrace the truth, and you work on what you can. You accept what is, and you say it.

Radical acceptance. I accept the reality that my son-in-law and daughter currently don't want to have anything to do with me. You say it out loud.

It's hard, but it's radical acceptance. It doesn't make it right, but you need to know what is going on that is true because you need to stop pushing on the door. Man, that's hard to say.

But to keep going to the door and knocking, it's not good for your heart, your spirit. And it just shows them that they're right to separate because you're acting like that maybe a toddler who wants another cookie, if you will. So be really careful of that.

So accept what isn't, grieve what is, reject the lies. You didn't do everything wrong. You might've done something wrong, but you didn't do everything wrong.

Embrace the truth. You know, God loves them more than I do. And another thing that I think we do, Jennifer, is we step into all the other roles we have.

I don't say this lightly. I know that you want to maintain your parenting, and we've already said here that you need to turn into a guide, coach, cheerleader, support system. You don't parent in the same way.

You've known that all along, I hope. And you've always, you've always released them from training wheels to a bike with no training wheels that's bigger, and then hand brakes. You've always released them. And driver's license, you've always released them. So this isn't something new. The season feels new, but you walk into that, I think, expectantly.

And then, Jennifer, what other roles do we have, right? You're, you're a spouse. If you're a spouse, prioritize your marriage.

It's the most important thing kids of any age need. Is a mom and a dad to have a dynamic, healthy relationship with Christ and marriage. And then celebrate the other roles you are. Are you a daughter? Are you an aunt? Are you a sister? Are you a choir member? Are you a volunteer in the church youth program? You know, helping your neighbor out who had knee surgery, you're gonna garden for her 'cause she loves her garden and she's upset she can't weed her garden.

Like, look at all the other possibilities. And I'm gonna say one more thing, Jennifer, and the audience can take it or leave it, but I know that in our churches there are many adult children who have no one to support them. Either their parents are deceased, or their parents aren't in the faith, or their parents have abandoned them.

I know of many children in the grandchildren age who would love to have an older woman or an older guy come to a piano recital or come to a Christian school grandparent day because, again, their grandparents aren't available to them. And you and I know that's not the same as pouring out love on family, but all this love that you have that God's given you, I don't want you to just hoard it and not use it because you can't use it on the one person that you think you have to use it on, but there's all these other people.

I hope that comes across right. Our churches are full of broken people that we can love well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, amen. Well, they are our larger family. And yes, just because the relationship may be cut off doesn't mean you're cut off from other relationships.

Yeah, and that's such a good word, Dr. Kathy. Listen, I am so— Oh gosh, I'm so deeply grateful. This to me feels like so intensely practical for the parent who's dealing with this kind of stuff, but also very comforting.

I mean, I think sometimes a parent might be afraid— well, I don't want to hear what I did wrong. I know I did it wrong. And what I hear you saying is, listen, let's just live where we are.

Let me comfort you in your loss, but let me give you tools to make the best of what you got going on. And I, I just so appreciate that as a sister in Christ. So I'm highly recommending the book.

I'm gonna make sure we link it on the show notes so everyone can get it. But we're going to get to our last question here, okay?

So gosh, I know this kind of conversation has really stirred up some feelings and some thoughts for some people, okay? So what would you say to the parents— and I know we got a lot of moms listening— what would you say to the mom who feels discouraged, or maybe she's frustrated, and let's be honest, she could even just be plain angry because their relationship with their adult kids is not what they thought it would be.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right. Feel the feelings. Certainly don't live in denial. Don't run from them. That's only going to make it worse. So feel the feelings, and yet don't get stuck in the feelings.

Again, look up. I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but look to God to solve the problems and your needs. Turn to Scripture, personalize it, pray with your children and grandchildren's names in the verses.

Look for small growth and celebrate it. And take care of yourself, you know, take care of yourself. Sleep, eat well, be nourished in the Word of God, which of course, Jennifer, you're such a fan of, love your teaching.

We need to make sure that we understand that we are complete in Christ and not just in this one relationship, because that's what I've seen. The problem really gets big when they feel like they've lost everything, and it might feel like you have, but you haven't.

And I say that with respect and with hope, because God is a really big God who loves you more. And I would love you to turn to him.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, that was some good stuff. We're to feel the feelings, not run from those feelings, but we're also not going to get stuck there, my friends. We are going to look to God to solve the problems we face.

And I loved how Dr. Kathy encouraged us, personalize scripture. Like put the name of that person you love right there, smack dab inside that scripture verse so that you can pray it personally over that person you love. And can we be honest?

I thought it was super important that she reminded us of the importance of taking care of ourselves. Yeah, you need to take care of yourself, my friend. And remember, God loves those children of yours. He loves them more than you do, and he loves you more than you can even imagine. So rest, rest in his love. He's got your kids, he's got you, he's got all your people.

All right, my friend, I hope you have a really good week. Way to grow. See you next week.

Jennifer Rothschild Show: Courage for Ordinary People with Max Lucado

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Max Lucado: Courage is not the absence of fear, but it's more the choice of facing our fears with faith. Nobody gets through life with no fear. I mean, it's just— in fact, fear serves a healthy purpose, right?

It keeps me from picking up a rattlesnake or somebody from crossing a highway. There is a healthy fear. When we talk about courage, it's a persistent life of fear that engages very little faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey everybody, welcome. You are at the Jennifer Rothschild Show. This is where thoughtful people come to grow, and that is why you're here.

Now listen, you may have been part of the 413podcast. Well, you are still in the right place. New name, new sound, new look. Oh, but it is the same great content.

And today, I'm just telling you what a great way to start because we have bestselling author Matt Max Lucado, and he is going to offer a fresh look at the prophet Elijah. Elijah's gonna help you know how to have unswerving belief and unbreakable courage in uncertain times.

So get ready for a great day. Here we go.

Well, you are in the right place, my friend. This was the 413podcast.com, and now we have refreshed it, retitled it. It is the Jennifer Rothschild Show. It is where thoughtful people come to grow.

And did you know that is why you're here? Now, why, you may wonder, did we do a refresh on the podcast? Well, for the same reason that I did a refresh on my house this year. I love my house. I've lived in it for a long time. But you know what? Sometimes you just need an update so that you can enjoy where you live even more.

So I did some new floors, new paint, new appliances, and it's just made it so much more enjoyable to live in. Well, that's what we've done with the podcast.

We refreshed it. We love it. It's still the best place you could be, yet at the same time, we needed to update.

So you love the music, but you're going to experience a new look, a new feel, and the same great content. Now, KC, he's still going to be here from time to time, but today is a great example because, oh my friend, we have Max Lucado. Now, you love Max Lucado just like I do, and I will tell you this: the man has written so many books.

In fact, he has— okay, get ready— over 150 million in print. Yeah. And today we're talking about his latest, which is called Unbreakable Courage.

I need it, you need it, so settle in for this fantastic conversation with America's pastor. Max Lucado.

[INTERVIEW BEGINS]

All right, Max, it's always a delight to have you back. America's pastor, we love you around here. And it's really special for me, given that this is the first episode of the Jennifer Rothschild Show, that you get to be the guest because you mean so much to me. So thank you for doing this, and we're going to talk about your book Unbreakable Courage.

That means we are talking about courage, and we're going to hit a little bit of Elijah. But before we go to do all that, I think we need to know what courage actually is. We need a definition, Max, because sometimes we think if we're a little nervous, if we feel anxious or fearful, then we don't have courage.

So start with the definition. What is courage?

Max Lucado: Okay, absolutely. By the way, congratulations. I love the new angle on the program. I think it's a great decision. And it's so good to hear your voice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right back at you.

Max Lucado: Let's say, let's try this approach.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Max Lucado: So courage is not the absence of fear, but it's more the choice of facing our fears with faith. Nobody gets through life with no fear. I mean, it just, in fact, fear serves a healthy purpose, right?

It keeps me from picking up a rattlesnake or somebody from crossing a highway. There is a healthy fear. When we talk about courage, it's a persistent life of fear that engages very little faith.

When we talk about faith, we're talking about the existence of a living and loving God who's overseeing the universe. So courage is taking my fears to him before I take my fears out on someone else or take them out on myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh boy, that contrast is poignant because we do— I don't think we realize we're doing it. We take our fears out on someone else or we take them out on ourselves. So courage is assigning our fears to the right source, to the right place, the one who can handle it.

Okay, that's beautiful. And I think we see that picture in Elijah, which is what Unbreakable Courage centers around. Okay, so when you— someone listening may not know exactly who Elijah is, and by the way, that's with the J, my people. Because sometimes we don't know which one we're talking about. There's Elijah and there's Elijah. We're talking about the J, Elijah.

Okay, give us a character sketch. Who is the man? And just give us an idea of his story.

Max Lucado: Yeah, it's a great story. He came along in 9th century BC, which was not a good time for Israel. Their faith was weak as a nation.

They were a train about to roll off the tracks. They had gone through one evil king after another, those kings whose stories are summarized in Scripture with lines like, and he did more evil in the sight of the Lord than anyone else, and he did more evil in the sight of the Lord. You know, it's just one generation after another of evil kings, which is interesting because we're only 100 years removed from the construction of the temple in Solomon's day.

So there was a kind of a golden age of faith. It just didn't last. And so we're talking about a society that has distanced itself not only from God but attached itself to two false gods, namely Baal and Asherah.

And whether somebody remembers their names is less important than the fact that their worship of these two involved temple prostitution, and even sacrifice of children. So it's just tragic that Israel would go this far. Well, this is the world into which Elijah storms, and I use that verb on purpose.

He stormed into the world. He comes out of nowhere. We don't know anything about his upbringing.

We don't know anything about his parents. We don't know anything about his faith development. But what we do know is that when he first appears, he goes right into the throne room of, uh, of Ahab and Jezebel, the most vile of the vile, and he says, 'The, the God of Israel lives!' And that's how he enters.

So he's a whirlwind on the prairie, and he's a picture of how to live with unbreakable courage in a day when no one else has faith but you do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, how relevant is that, sadly, Max, for where we are today? And you know, I've never thought about it. You're right, he didn't come quietly. He stormed in. Talk about courage.

And so I'm wondering, since we don't know a lot about his underpinning of his life, we got to know a little bit of what must have been going on in his heart to give him that kind of courage. So in your book, I know you talk about Elijah-level prayers. Okay, so what is that?

And as you trace his story, let us know what those prayer— what Elijah-level prayer is like.

Max Lucado: Yeah, well, we can thank the Epistle of James for attaching or mentioning the prayer life of Elijah as something that's an example for all of us. James is quick to point out he was just a man like the rest of us, but when he prayed for the heavens to shut up and not rain, they, they were quiet. When he prayed for rain, rain returned.

And James uses him as an example of somebody who prays with passion. Whose Prayers Literally Changed the World. I love the discussion, Jennifer, of prayer, and it's still a mystery to me.

It still is. I mean, quite honestly, why does God care what I think? But he does.

And why would my prayers impact his actions? But they do. And to what degree do my prayers influence God?

I love discussing it. I'm just fascinated that he would even care what we think. Yeah, uh, he cared what Elijah thought, and when Elijah prayed, God responded.

There was a little boy raised from the dead because of the prayers of Elijah. There was fire from heaven that fell because of the prayers of Elijah. His story just is a reminder that as God's people, we have this high and holy privilege of interceding on behalf of the world.

Whether we understand prayer or not is second to the fact that we are called to pray. And prayer is an act of faith. Prayer is an act of obedience.

And I really believe prayer is our highest privilege. So yeah, I talk quite a bit in the book about Elijah-level prayers, being careful never to place the power of prayer in the way we pray or the person who prays. But the power of prayer is in God who hears our prayer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Max Lucado: But the prayer prayed in earnest faith, James said, is— does great things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, well, and that obviously Elijah was proof text of that. You know, it's interesting because you had just described how Elijah stormed into the throne room of Ahab and said, 'The Lord God lives.' Well, in some ways that's kind of what he did with the Lord God of the universe. He stormed into the throne room and he pleaded "make it rain, make it stop raining, raise this child." That takes courage too, Max, to trust that God is hearing and responding.

And you're right, it is a mystery that sometimes we shy away from. But yeah, to follow the example of Elijah, you know, one of the things about his life too, Elijah's life, that has always ministered to me— I've had over the years what I call Elijah episodes, okay? And you know what this is?

It's when you just have this, uh, this deep despair after you've exerted a lot of spiritual effort or even had spiritual victory Okay, so somebody might not know what I'm talking about. So give us that little picture of Elijah's life and experience. And then what?

What happened? What was the result of it?

Max Lucado: Yeah, we're going right to the heart of Elijah's story here, because to understand his downtime, you have to understand his high time. And that took place on Mount Carmel. He invited— he double-dog dared Ahab and Jezebel to have a showdown between their god and the one true God.

And that story is worth retelling 100 times over. Yeah. 850 false prophets come.

Elijah's by himself. They bring a bull. Elijah brings a bull.

They call on their false prophets to bring fire from heaven. They dance and they prance, and Elijah makes fun of them. He sits over there under a tree, arms crossed, saying, 'Is your god asleep?

Is he gone? Is he taking a nap?' He just makes fun of them. They finally give up.

They've done all their dancing and prancing and chanting, and they give up. They're exhausted. And then Elijah steps up.

He pours more water— pours more water onto the altar. And then, even before he can ask it, fire falls from heaven and consumes everything. It's, it's a stunning, powerful moment that I think probably is still being discussed by the angels today in heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Max Lucado: But as you point out, he goes from that high moment to the lowest moment of his life. He finds out that Jezebel is out to get him. And yet we would think he would respond in courage after what he just experienced.

But he's so exhausted that he runs. He goes on the run. He goes MIA.

And leaves his servant at one point, just keeps running, finally falls under a juniper tree and says, just take me, God, I'm ready to die. And he goes from one point to the other, and it's, it's a powerful picture of how depleted we can become and how fragile faith can be. It's also a picture of how God cares for us when we're depressed.

I think he was depressed. I think, I think, uh, statistically, 1 out of 3 Americans battle depression. And so this story is so practical.

I hope people will revisit it. It reminds us that God sent an angel to feed him, to give him rest. Sometimes that's what we need, it's just a good day off.

He sent word to Elijah not to stay in the cave. Sometimes that's what we need, is to get out from you know, our own little mind, and to get back in circulation.

Max Lucado: But most of all, he gave Elijah a word. He spoke to him through a still small voice. And most of all, that's what we need.

We need to know that even when we're as down as we could possibly be, that God is there with us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Such a good word. And somebody needed to hear that, because that's courage also— the courage just to listen to the word and trust and obey and be mindful that God is there and he's ministering. And wow, what a beautiful picture.

I'm grateful for that story because you're right. I mean, when you said 1 out of 3 people experience depression, that means a third of the people listening today know exactly how Elijah felt, and that means they can also know exactly how God can minister. And I'm so thankful for that.

And you know, Max, you talk about in your book something I want to explore a little more because I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about yet on this one because I haven't been able to read this part of the book. You talk about living with an expectation of divine disruption. Talk to us about what you mean by divine disruption and living with that expectation.

Max Lucado: Well, when you look at the life— thank you again for that question— that's what Elijah experienced. He would go from really major miracle to major miracle. His life is marked by being cared for by God, As ravens brought him food, as a widow in a village cared for him.

When the widow's son died, he prayed for the son and the son came to life. When Elijah prayed against the rain, the rain stopped. When Elijah prayed for the rain, the rain returned.

Now, and I'm not even mentioning his lack of death, you know, he was raptured into heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's true.

Max Lucado: But then in between these divine disruptions, there was just faithful service. Even though his life has many miracles, as just about anyone in scripture whose name is not Jesus, there were long periods of just day in and day out, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, studying, praying, walking, serving. And then there are these divine disruptions that shake everything up.

And I bring all that out, uh, Jennifer, to give people hope. That God does interrupt. He does come.

He does surprise. He does intervene. And just because it's been a long time since you sensed his, uh, fire from heaven, don't think for a second that he's not going to come.

Uh, Elijah just models day in and day out steady service, knowing that at any point something's going to happen. And Joseph is going to leave the prison and become prime minister. Or Saul's going to get knocked off his horse and become Paul.

Our God is a God who does that. He just interrupts, and we don't control it. We can't calculate for it, but we can be excited about it.

No situation is ever so dark that God cannot interrupt it and bring hope.

Jennifer Rothschild: And all the people said amen. Okay, I love it. And we need to live with that expectation.

All right, so then Here's another, something you deal with in the book that I want us to address because I think we get confused by it and we, and we don't understand it. 'Cause you had already mentioned prayer, right? And the mystery of it and why God even involves us in that.

But you talk about in the book, resting in prayer and wrestling in prayer. So on the surface, we think we know what the difference is, but tell us what the difference is and how do we know which one to apply when?

Max Lucado: Yeah, yeah, I love talking about prayer. Again, it's such a mystery to me and it's such a privilege. So yes, there are times we rest in prayer.

We're quiet, we're still. We come to God like a child comes to an Abba. It's such a comforting thing just to be quiet.

For me, that usually comes early in the morning. I'm kind of an early riser, and I have 2 or 3 places in the house depending on how cold it is or hot it is outside. I may sit indoors or outdoors, but the place doesn't matter.

But just those few moments in which I say, "Good morning, Father. Good morning. Thank you. You've got another day for me." I love starting my day there. Now, sometimes I stumble, or I mean, I don't, but my good days begin like that. And that's resting in prayer.

Wrestling in prayer is what we did last, a few nights back. When one of my dear friends who's been diagnosed with a brain tumor— we called together— I, I didn't, one of his friends assembled about 100 people and we met in a small chapel and we witnessed this man's beautiful faith. He said to all of us, he said, "I'm not afraid of cancer. I'm not afraid of dying." And it was just his powerful testimony. But then we all prayed, we cried out to the Lord, we begged God, and we're continuing to beg God. I know God has heard us.

Now, will he do what we've asked him to do? That's up to him. That's up to him.

But that's wrestling in prayer. Elijah did that. You know, when that little boy died in the village of Zarephath, he prayed not once, not twice, but three times.

When he asked for God to send rain again, he prayed not once but seven times. He stayed in a posture of prayer. And so I think there are times which, as parents, as pastors, as friends, as neighbors, we just wrestle with God.

We beg the Lord. We don't— we're not disrespectful, far from it, right? We're just being obedient. We can come before the throne of grace boldly because we have a high priest who understands.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And it is— that's where we find the help we need. Beautiful. And God be with your friend. With the friend who has cancer, in Jesus' name.

Max Lucado: Amen. And God be with all your listeners. Even as we're talking, I'm sensing that there's— Lord, let your hand touch that precious person who feels like there's no solutions, no healing, no outcome except a dark one.

Please bring hope in life. I join with them and seek to be obedient. And you know what else, Jennifer?

The Holy Spirit intercedes with words that are greater than— with groans that are greater than anything we could conjure up. So don't, don't ever think it's up to you to pray the perfect prayer, but it is up to us to bring passion in our prayers and faith in our prayers. And that, that's the calling that some people have on their lives.

That's their assignment. And God bless them, and we need them.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a worthy assignment. And yes, amen to those who are obedient to that calling. All right, I got two more questions for you, Max.

One of them, you mentioned Ahab. Ahab and Jezebel were messing with Elijah. Okay, some people don't know enough about Ahab, but we know all we really need to know: he was not a good guy and he was an enemy, in essence, of Elijah.

But in your book, you talk about how Ahab is not our enemy. So how— what do you mean by that, and how can we apply that concept.

Max Lucado: Yeah, our battle is not against flesh and blood, right? It's against the principalities and powers of this present darkness. There is a devil.

There is, there is one who aspired to have the throne of God, and he was cast down, and his time is short, and he knows it. And with all my heart, I do not think he can take Max's salvation, but I do believe he can take Max's peace. He can take my effectiveness.

He could take my testimony. He can take my joy, and he's trying to today. He take— he could— he can lead me to places if I'm not careful.

And so yeah, Ahab was the tool that the devil used, but let's remember, that's why prayer and worship and, and God's word is so important, because we do not fight with weapons that the world uses. Uh, we fight with weapons that, that are spiritual in nature. Uh, there are Jahabs, there are very evil people in the world who mean nothing but harm for us and nothing but achievement for themselves.

May God have mercy upon them. But our ultimate enemy is never making a movie or running for election or, or, or the guy down the street. Our ultimate enemy is the devil himself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Right, that is where our real struggle is. That's where we can wrestle in prayer too.

Max Lucado: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: And just ask the Lord for protection to overcome the evil one through the word of our testimony and the blood of the Lamb. And so that's where we're going to end, Max. So this, uh, podcast, we say it's where thoughtful people come to grow.

So as the last question, could you give us an indication, just an idea, what is it that helps you grow that you would recommend to our listener that would help them grow?

Max Lucado: Yeah, my answer is still in the theme of prayer. In the last year or two, I have been introduced to the whole idea of praying specific prayers like a surgical strike. I have identified there are two areas in my life, and I don't want to go public with what they are, but they're just personal areas in which I continue to struggle.

50 years as a Christian now, and And, and I still have these two dogged, uh, weaknesses, weaknesses. And, uh, and somebody suggested, well, every day identify them and take them like they themselves are an enemy, you know, march them into the presence of the Lord and point them out. And, and you know what, since I started doing that, Jennifer, I've really felt victory in those two areas.

It— rather than just pray, Lord, help me as I face temptation, or help me as I battle with this issue. I say, Lord, today I know that I will be tempted to have this thought or take that action. Please, let's go together, God.

Come, come alongside me. And I get very specific, as specific as possible. So I would encourage a person, is there some besetting sin, this habit that you just can't shake?

Then go surgical with it. Get specific. Talk to God about it. Identify it. March it into his presence. And don't just pray nebulous prayers over it. Pray specific prayers about it.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my friends, aren't you glad you are here today? Me too. I'm telling you that that was so good.

I was so encouraged. And you know what I was really encouraged about? To hear that Max Lucado, he still struggles.

And listen, my friend, admitting struggle is courageous. It's so courageous because we all struggle. So remember Max's definition of courage.

It's not the absence of fear. It is taking your fear to God instead of taking your fear out on others or taking it out on yourself. So let's expect those divine disruptions today.

God's with you, my friend, and he's gonna grow you. So if you need rest, just remember, he'll minister to you. All right, so check out Max's book.

It's called Unbreakable Courage, and it'll be at the show notes. And of course, I will always have for you a full transcript. And one more thing, can I tell you one more thing?

If you want to continue to grow, go surgical. That's what he said. You go surgical. Be very specific in prayer. March right into that throne room of grace and be specific. Ooh, I love that.

All right, my friends, I'm so glad you came. Thanks for hanging out with me on this first episode of the Jennifer Rothschild Show. You're a thoughtful person, so keep growing, my friend.

I'll see you next week.

4:13 Podcast: What You Didn’t Know About Jennifer - Part 2

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey friends, I hope you're staying cool out there in the month of August. This is Jennifer Rothschild here, and this is another episode of What You Didn't Know About Jennifer.

KC sat down with me and asked me some fun questions, some funny, some interesting, some deep. Boy, I didn't even know what I think until we had this conversation and I got to say out loud some of the things I've probably kept buried in my heart and head.

I didn't know what he was gonna ask me, and you don't know either, so this will be fun for you to listen in on this second part of the conversation.

KC Wright: Who is Jennifer Rothschild when the microphone is off and the audience is gone? This is one of the big questions. What's she really like?

Jennifer Rothschild: What's she really like?

KC Wright: Behind the pages, you know, off the page, when she's not writing, when she's not speaking, when she's not on television. Who are you really when you're just hanging out at home?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, let me just say this. Lord willing, I am the same person that is on the page and in public as I am in private. But of course, there's a letdown. There's some, some things that the public would not ever see.

Okay, so who is Jennifer really? She is one who loves to clean things and organize things.

Okay, I do. Like, it brings me stinking plain unadulterated joy. Like, I will organize my linen closet and just stand in front of it and smile. Like, yes, it's sad.

Okay, but that is me. Yeah, I'm an Enneagram 5. Those of you who do the Enneagram, that means I, I do live in my head. I, I am not one who's afraid of people or doesn't like people. I love people because they're interesting and I'm curious and I love Jesus and therefore I love people.

But Yeah, given my own druthers, I'm gonna sit in my office and study and read and research.

And if I have a question, I do not want you to tell me the answer. I wanna study and research and figure it out myself. That's why I put together IKEA furniture on my own, even though I can't see it.

But because I'm an Enneagram 5, I also am a wing 6. That's your prepper. Dude, I have got it. Like, I just went to coffee 2 days ago with a friend. I had my battery charger with me. I had my snacks with me. I had extra water. Like, I was ready for the apocalypse.

Okay, for an hour, coffee. All right, so I am kind of a little bit of a prepper. I love silence. Oh, I love silence.

And I do love Chopin, so I like classical music. I like Chopin. I love to worship in church with my brothers and sisters, but at home I am not going to turn on worship music. I like— I like to have music facilitate my thoughts, not tell me what to think.

So I will listen to a lot of Chopin, instrumental piano only, usually. I love tech.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, I do.

KC Wright: Yes, you do.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love tech.

KC Wright: You're the techiest girl I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love learning tech.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what else is me privately? Um, yoga pants, jeans, which usually get tight by the middle of the afternoon because I snack a lot, so I usually have my top button unbuttoned. My belly gets bigger. I'm— I am constantly trying to figure out how to manage my eating. That's a Jennifer thing in private. Um, what else can I tell you that's in private?

KC Wright: Um, you're good.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's about I can think of. Can you think of anything?

KC Wright: Oh my goodness, no, you hit all the good ones.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Now she also loves smells. Oh, when you, when you walk into this home, there are so many fragrances. She loves candles, but not just can— she doesn't stop there. It's laundry detergent.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh yeah, it's everything.

KC Wright: It's all the things. It's the perfume, it's cologne. She loves all that.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is, you're right. I will say this, um, I'll tell you one more other private Jennifer thing. Every time I write a new book I rearrange my office or redecorate, whichever I can afford at the moment. Wow. Yeah, because I, even though I'm blind, space matters to me. Like I can sense it, it really matters to me.

And I love to know that things are artful and balanced and light and yeah.

KC Wright: She just redid her whole upstairs home, her office, her kitchen, her kitchen floors, her living room. It's beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's light now.

KC Wright: It's so beautiful. Oh, it's gorgeous. But I thought it was beautiful to begin with.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it was beautiful for 20 years ago, and I'm just grateful we got to update.

KC Wright: Oh my goodness. Yeah, everything's getting an update. Everything, including my face. Botox now. Okay, no, just kidding. Okay, what would surprise people?

And I think you just answered some of this about your private walk with God. The Bible says that Enoch walked with God. Yes, he was in habitual fellowship with God, and God took him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: So you read in the Bible this obituary, and he died, and he died, and he died, but not Enoch. He walked with God. So that when we walk with someone, you're keeping up pace with them, you're staying with them, there's conversation. There's a whole sermon on walking with God.

So what would surprise people about your private walk with God?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I see, I love this question. Yeah.

Because I think there is an assumption. Anyone in public ministry, there is an assumption, oh my gosh, their walk with God is better than mine, or they have figured it out, or they're so devout and disciplined, they're up at 5 AM every morning with their candle lit and their coffee in their hand with, you know, yeah, and their worship music and their Bible.

So I love this question because I love to shatter the assumptions that there is only one way to do this. The best way— let me just say this as the sister in Christ— the best way to walk with God is the way you walk with God. Because the point is walking with God, not following what some formula says. Okay?

So this is important to me because I don't do it like a lot of people would assume. There are some times when I'm up every morning early because I have woken up early, right?

And I just sit with my coffee and my Dwell Bible app, and I do different programs where I'm listening to scripture being read, and I process and I pray, right?

There are other seasons where I set an alarm and I get up, and I will have a time with God. But I'll be honest with you, I don't love that.

Because that just, it is not my thing. I feel like I am relational with God. I don't set an alarm with Phil and say, "Let's get up and visit," right?

Because we live together and we walk with each other every day. So I prefer that. And so therefore, I engage God all throughout the day.

And because I'm in scripture with writing, that does help me. And I used to think that that couldn't be the same as devotionally relating to God. And now I've realized, no, I think that was just legalism in disguise. I can. I will be studying something in scripture that I'm writing about, and I'll just stop and marvel.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: If I marvel at Jesus, that's walking with him, right? But so I am not in any way dismissing spiritual disciplines because they are important.

But I guess what I'm saying is I have moved from a place of, um, for me personally, the need for discipline, and into just a place of delight and an awareness of God as I walk with him every day. You know, I listen to scripture. I like when I I said, when you asked me about, you know, my private me, I listen to Chopin because I like it to facilitate my own thoughts.

Well, because God is the author of beauty, I will often just marvel at, wow, the beauty of what God did in that man's manuscripts, you know, his compositions. That's walking with God.

So for me, like, it's all beauty, it's all worship, it's all truth. Yeah, because he's with me, right?

So yeah, so I'm glad you asked the question because I love shattering that expectation.

And just because that's mine doesn't mean it has to be someone else's. Doesn't mean mine is lesser or greater, or theirs is lesser than greater, right? The point is, like Enoch, we walk with God. We just walk with him, right?

KC Wright: And I love it because what you're saying is it's more than the checkbox on your refrigerator— I read my Bible today— it's walking with him. That's a relationship. You don't set your timer with Phil.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I don't. Okay, we're done now. Go along and do your day.

KC Wright: No. Okay, now This is one I really, I can't wait to hear what you have to say about it. With you living in the Word and writing about the Word and speaking about the Word, okay, this is your ministry, the calling that God's placed on you.

If you could sit down for coffee, and we know there has to be coffee with J.R., with any biblical figure besides Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: No Jesus, right? Right.

KC Wright: I know. And that grieves us because that would be the first most. Yeah, we're going to get that, for eternity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Who would it be? And I want to know why. If the Creator who's created you to create, if he could supernaturally provide a coffee date with someone from the pages of the Holy Written Word, who would it be, J.R.?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that, you know, that's so hard. I'd like to have a coffee gathering, but I'm gonna have coffee with one. I'm gonna pick Amos.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I'm gonna pick Amos.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Here's why. I loved Amos's courage. I loved his creativity. I loved his obedience to follow God.

You know, he's a fig farmer, and he's doing his thing, and the Lord calls him to go basically to the big city of Israel and say, "Y'all are dirty, rotten sinners, and God's asking you to repent." So, number one, such a cultural change he's stepping into. He's leaving his security, but then when he gets there, of course, he's not popular.

And he uses such creativity. Sometimes he's doing a lament, sometimes he's using poetry, sometimes it's prose. I think it's the bravery, the courage, the creativity of Amos that I really appreciate.

And I would love to just kind of learn what did that feel like? You know, and here you are in this agrarian lifestyle, but then you show up in Samaria and you're like a rock star with all your words, like, Were you just contemplating while you're feeding the sheep? I mean, like, how does this all work out? Yeah, fascinating.

So I would like to talk to Amos.

KC Wright: And you have an Amos Bible study?

Jennifer Rothschild: I do have an Amos Bible study, and I think it's a very cool name. It's a very cool name. If I had another child, he'd be Amos.

KC Wright: Oh my goodness. Oh, thank you. Those— I needed to know that. Yes, I needed to know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Now let me just say this: nobody needs to read Amos without kinda checking out my Bible study first, because you'll read it and go, "Why the heck does she wanna meet Amos? He sounds so doom and gloom."

But oh, he's much more than doom and gloom. He was presenting a message of condemnation, but the beautiful thing is, if you really read Amos, you can see that all those condemnations, they are the result of Israel not receiving the invitation to follow God and live.

And if they had just followed those— received those invitations, there would have been no condemnation. So to me, it's a very beautiful book and a very positive book when you understand it.

KC Wright: I know a group of women right now in my life that are doing the Amos Bible study. They're right in the middle of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good. It's an invitation to the good life. That's what I say.

KC Wright: And then my sweet mama's Bible study, they just wrapped up Heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, they did?

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, let's go!

KC Wright: Okay, I have seen you sit on stage on the Today Show. With Hoda and Kathy Lee. I've seen you on the Dr. Phil Show. I have seen you walk on the stage at Liberty University. If I could put a word over you, like banners over you, to describe Jennifer Rothschild, my top 10, one of them would be confidence.

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting.

KC Wright: Yeah, and you just got up there and spoke.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, well, I can't see them. That also might help. Okay, let me tell you this. I used to think that I had to conjure confidence. Okay, so first of all, I would say this. Confidence and courage are not the same things.

And we think sometimes we think what we see is confidence. It's really courage in disguise. Okay. So that's one thing. I think that what you see in me is courage that manifests as confidence.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: And therefore the longer I practice courage, there really is a genuine confidence, but the confidence comes from being less self-aware, not more self-assured. Okay. And I think that's a difference that we miss. Um, I have become more confident the older I have become because I have become less self-aware in a healthy way.

And therefore, I don't have the need to mitigate my insecurity, to wonder what they're thinking, to make sure I do it right. It's like, yeah, I am exactly who God made me to be. I'm gonna step out with courage and just be her.

And it comes across as confidence, but it also builds confidence. Okay. And so I think that's one of them for me that has really helped.

And I think no matter who you are and what you do, that helps because one of the things that's this weird dichotomy of blindness is not being able to see the audience. Some might think, oh, well, that must make it easier.

And now maybe, but no, no, it makes it harder. Cause I can't read them. I'm wondering, are they with me? What do they think? Where should I look? I feel so like I'm the only one in this group who can't see. So I feel more self-aware.

Okay, so the more I have dealt with that, the more I've realized, okay, I'm just gonna have to really that even people who can see, like especially if you're on stage for anything, or just anything that makes you feel insecure, you have an audience of one. There's just one, and that's Jesus, who is your biggest fan and who is the only one that you are seeking.

If you're gonna boast, it is in Christ. If you're gonna please, it is Christ. When you really can assign the audience size to what it is really legitimately, then you're able to like, do the thing. And why wouldn't you have confidence?

So I think, you know, that's a kind of a convoluted answer. But really, I think if what you see is confidence, yeah, there is a genuine confidence. Okay.

But I'll say one more thing about that. I'm having to buy new appliances for my kitchen because they're all 22 years old and half of them don't work. And they— it's ridiculous. Right. I'm with Kenzie and I am a nervous wreck going into appliance shop.

And I said, I gotta say this out loud. I am so insecure about this. She goes, why? I said, I don't know. I can write a book. I can talk before thousands, but to go in there and figure out what 5 appliances I want and have to deal with a salesman who's gonna pressure me.

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I handled it fine.

And I just saying it out loud reminded me, okay, Jennifer, you know, sometimes you have to speak things out loud to realize what you're really feeling. Right. We leave there and here's my 30-year-old assistant saying to her 60-year-old boss, "You did really good. You did really—" I'm laughing. I'm going, "Yes, I know."

So let me just say, because people could think, "Oh yeah, she has figured this out." Dude, I am always figuring it out. And there's certain things that bring out our insecurity, you know?

Now it was fine, of course.

And you know, I told you a few questions back the importance of touch it once. Once I realized, Jennifer, just close the loop, touch it once, just deal with it. I even said, I looked at the salesman, I said, I'm very insecure about making these decisions. I already have decision fatigue and we haven't started. I'm afraid you're going to oversell me. I did. I told him everything. I said, I have— this is my budget.

Well, of course we came in $1,000 over, but anyway, right, it was hilarious. So yeah, we're always, always, always growing in this area.

KC Wright: What a good answer.

And insert my favorite Bible study you've ever done. The Bible study on courage. Take courage. Take courage is my favorite one you've ever—

Jennifer Rothschild: and isn't that true? And, and what is it, Haggai 2:4? Yeah, we can take courage and do the thing, right? Because the Lord is with us. The Lord is with us.

KC Wright: That's why she's not nervous to speak in front of thousands, but a Maytag gives her a rash. Seriously, seriously.

Jennifer Rothschild: He even— the salesman even said, would you like coffee? And I thought, no, do not give me coffee. My heart cannot rise anymore. Okay.

KC Wright: This is the last one, even though this has been so much joy for my heart. And I know the listener is loving this, but this is my last question. Okay. Even though we, I would love to spend more time here. Okay.

If you had 5 minutes to speak to every person listening right now, what would you want them to know about God? I know that is a loaded question.

Jennifer Rothschild: That before you were, he is. And to have a right understanding of God will give you a right understanding of yourself. So that which you seek— identity, love, belonging— all of that is met in him.

And you will never have a right understanding of what your true needs are and the true way to have those needs met until you have a right understanding of God.

And so I began to explain this by saying, before you were, he is.

I think what we try to do sometimes, and the reason we find ourselves lacking and longing, even in our faith or in our quest for faith, is because we try to create God within our understanding and image of time and space and humanity.

And we assign to God all the human things we can understand.

And there is a degree to which that is an okay thing to do. I mean, the Psalmist do it, you know, the hand of God is not too short to save, the heart of God, the eyes of God. Like we assign human qualities to God, but in doing so, we may inadvertently limit him and create him in our image without recognizing.

So before KC, before you were, before I was, God is. So there is this eternal— it's so important to understand the eternal nature of God.

And when we do, then our, our place here in time and space can begin to take shape as God intended. And God shows us how that can happen. Because God, the eternal being, took on flesh like you and me. And Jesus, being fully God and fully man, showed us who God was.

And so, if I had 5 minutes, which I'm almost up now to, with somebody, and what would I want them to know about God? It would be this, that before you were, he is.

And he came in human form to show you who he is. So know Jesus.

And as you know Jesus and you trust Jesus and you love Jesus, then you become the full human God intended you to be here on earth, which prepares you for the beautiful eternity of being home with him forever.

KC Wright: That was a gift. Thank you, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can't wait to be back with you live with our podcast refresh in just a little while. Remember, it's going to be a new sound, new look, same great content.

So I hope in the meantime You are over at Spotify listening to some of those curated playlists that I made for you. There's one on relationships, one on mental health, one on just things that will equip you to have a fresh start.

And my favorite is the audio pictures. You wanna go to Italy? Well, you can go with me in your ears because I've got audio pictures to my trip to Italy and to Ireland and to the Badlands. And it would be so fun for you to join me with whatever you're doing these next few weeks in August.

Well, I hope you enjoy the rest of your summer. I can't wait to see you back here live in September. You're gonna love what we've done. It'll be a new sound, a new look, same great content. See you then.

4:13 Podcast: What You Didn’t Know About Jennifer [Part 1]

**NOTE: This transcript was generated by AI and may contain errors, misspellings, or mistranslated words.**

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, so glad you popped in to hang out with me for this special surprise in the month of August. I hope you're enjoying time over on Spotify listening to those curated playlists. This is Jennifer Rothschild, in case this is the first time you decided to pop in.

But we are in a refresher round here. We finished episode 413 a few weeks ago.

And we're about to do a refresh in a couple of weeks, but I thought I'd pop in, in between with two special episodes. This is the first one. Here's what happened. We turned off the mics. We thought we were done, and KC said, "You know what? I would love to ask you a few questions." Well, he asked me about 8.

So, what we've done is put these questions into two fun episodes that are dropping in this month of August. Now, this first one, by the way, I had no idea what he was gonna ask me, and you don't either. So, that's what's fun about it, but these were all questions of things he wanted to know that he did not know.

So we figured if he didn't know, you don't know, and maybe it'll be something fun to listen to while you're going for a walk, finishing the dishes, or in the car on that road trip with your fam.

So turn up your earbuds and get ready for some fun questions, things you didn't know about Jennifer.

KC Wright: What do you think is the best life hack of all time?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, if I had to pick one, and that's hard, that's hard to pick one, right, and pick the best, but I would summarize it with the, with the words touch it once, okay? My best life hack is to touch it once.

And here's what I mean by that. Whatever it is, if it's an issue you've gotta tackle, don't dread it, do it. You spend a ton of time touching it emotionally, touching it mentally, worrying, thinking, instead of just touch it once, do it.

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay? If it comes to physical things in your house, like you got a mess in your kitchen and you're like, uh-huh, just, I'll put away the, this now, I'll leave the rest till in the morning.

KC Wright: Nope.

Jennifer Rothschild: Touch it once, get it done, close the loop.

Because what I have found is if I don't touch things only once, then they grow in my mind. Like they take up too much rent in my brain. They consume a lot of my emotions and thought.

So whatever it is, literally KC, like I touch it once.

And so that means you finish a job, you finish the drill, you close the loop. Don't touch it until you know you can only touch it once. Wow. You know what I'm saying?

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let it sit there until you know you can touch it once, whatever it is, but once you're ready to engage it, finish it. Touch it once. That's my life hack.

KC Wright: Do the thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do the thing.

KC Wright: Do it now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: Why spend so much emotional energy on the thing? Just do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Right.

KC Wright: Oh my gosh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's one of my best life hacks.

KC Wright: See, this is so good right there. We could, we could all just wrap this up right now with that one. That was so good. Okay. What is something people assume about you that isn't true? I mean, oh my goodness. We're in the people business. We're in ministry. You have touched thousands of lives through— oh my goodness— Fresh Grounded Faith conferences. You and I are in the people business.

So what is something that people assume about you that isn't true at all?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I think there's two things. One, I think they think I'm sweet. Now, part of it is because I'm small.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm feminine, right?

And I'm blind.

Okay, so the combination, they just think I'm sweet. Oh, she's so sweet, she's so sweet. I am a lot more spicy than sweet. I wish I were sweet.

Now I am kind. Yes, I am kind, but I'm not sweet. I'll be honest, I am a lot more spicy and sassy than I am sweet.

So I think my public persona, people think I'm more sweet than I really am.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Secondly, I think that they— and I understand it, it's because of the mystery of blindness— I think that people assume I am more dependent than I actually am.

I think if they were able to sit on my kitchen counter and watch my life, they would realize, oh right, she does the dishes. Oh, she cooks. Oh, she does a lot. What does Phil do? No, I'm just kidding. They wouldn't say that, but you know what I mean?

I think they think that I am more dependent on everybody else to do all the things for me. They don't realize how much I actually do on my own, um, out of preference. Out of preference.

So yeah, those are probably the two big things.

KC Wright: Oh, that's so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And yeah, you're spicy and you lead with love, but all the fruits of the Spirit flow from you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, most, you know, when they— until they don't, because I am, like I established, I need a savior.

KC Wright: Yeah, we all do.

And yeah, you're strong. I just heard you run up the stairs. And run back down.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Yeah, you are very capable.

Jennifer Rothschild: More capable than people realize. But I get it, it's the mystery of blindness, right? I get it.

KC Wright: So, okay, who has had the greatest influence on your spiritual life? Your spiritual life?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, who has had the greatest influence on my spiritual life? I'm gonna pick one I know and one I don't know. My dad.

So my dad had the greatest influence on my spiritual life for a couple of reasons. One, he was a great Bible teacher and storyteller.

So I grew up— he was my pastor— so I grew up under his teaching and learning not just the word, but then I also think what I was learning without recognizing it is how to um, teach the word, how to understand the word, how to process it. He also was such a masterful storyteller that I learned so much spiritually from seeing through story.

So that was part of his influence, but it was underpinned by, um, that he lived it.

So I was just laughing about how doing dishes in the kitchen. I remember as a girl, watching my dad help my mom with things around the house. He was never too big, too busy, or too proud.

And he lived out the servanthood of Christ, the kindness of Christ. Even as he disciplined me, it was the kindness that led me to repentance. You know what I mean? He still disciplined me. I got it.

But I never— so I saw my dad's temperament reflect Christ. I saw his behavior reflect Christ. And then I hear him teach the Word. And so it all was so integrated that I think his was the greatest influence on my life.

But then secondly, C.S. Lewis really has been a mentor from afar because as an adult, when I struggled with depression— well, as an adult, of course, in my 40s— the Lord really brought C.S. Lewis into my life as like this guide for me to understand my own angst, to kind of watch him live his life through his writings, understand his thought.

And it helped. It gave me kind of a place to be mentored in my mind, you know, spiritually. And that's been also a real mentorship for me. So there's been great spiritual influence. So those were probably my two greatest spiritual influences.

KC Wright: And over the years, God has used JR so much in my life as a girl dad. JR has spoken such wisdom into my heart on how to say things and how to love my daughter well that she caught from her dad.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: And I've been in this for a while, and I've seen how do some pastor kids survive and thrive, and some pastor kids fall by the wayside and crash and burn.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And it all comes down to they have to see what's preached also mirror what's at home.

Jennifer Rothschild: So true.

KC Wright: And so that really keeps you on your toes, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: And on your knees, right?

KC Wright: Because you are being watched at home just like you're being watched behind the pulpit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: And I call Ellie the Holy Ghost with hair because I got my little Holy Spirit always watching me.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's true.

And really, what an honor, because it does help you live the sanctification that you're longing for, you know?

And it's so healthy and doesn't mean you're perfect. It just means you apologize when you blow it.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know?

And I do.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, exactly. That's a good parenting tip no matter what.

KC Wright: Yes.

And your love for C.S. Lewis has definitely rubbed off on me and everyone. Yes, we love C.S. Lewis.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we do.

KC Wright: More than a fan.

Jennifer Rothschild: More.

KC Wright: Okay. What is one message you hope people remember long after they leave one of your events? What is something that you just really want them to leave with, take home with, marinate with, and have? More than what they find at the merch table.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh, yes.

KC Wright: But what's in their heart?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Well, I present different teachings and different messages, but there is probably, when I think of like the blanket that I would want on their heart when they leave, it's this.

Okay, I'll give you an emotion and then a truth.

The emotion I want them to feel is, I have been seen. I have been seen by my sisters and I have been seen by God. And because I think there's something in that that allows us to have an open heart to receive truth, receive people, take risks, you know? And so, so that's the emotional blanket that I would want to cover their heart with.

But the truth blanket, or I should say the truth foundation that I want everything I always teach to be stacked upon, would be this concept of, of an eternal perspective that I'm made for eternity.

So no matter what I'm teaching from Scripture, it always can be underpinned by the reality that this is for life here on earth now, but we are made for more than longevity. We're made for eternity. And, and therefore it gives perspective to whatever we experience and encounter here, whatever we're dealing with here, whatever the joy, whatever the heartache.

When we encounter it with this concept that we're not made for just mere longevity, we're made for eternity, then it gives meaning, it gives lightness, it gives purpose.

And so no matter what the concept scripturally I'm teaching, that would be something I always want them to walk away with, is a reminder that they're made for eternity.

KC Wright: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: And all the people said, amen.

All right. I loved his questions because they were so insightful.

And you know what it reminded me of? How important it is when we've got friends to just sit down, have coffee, and have conversations. 'Cause sometimes we really don't know as much as we think we do.

And the more we learn about each other, the more we learn about ourselves, and the more we learn about God. So I hope you sit with somebody and you just ask some fun questions. Maybe you can even pick the same questions that KC asked me today.

Now enjoy your rest of your month of August. We're gonna pop in soon with another episode of these remaining questions, what you didn't know about Jennifer, and then we'll be back live with the brand new refresh of the podcast in September. Have a good day.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Take Joy Seriously? With Tim Hawkins

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, 4:13ers, this is Jennifer, and I just need to ask you something. Can I please hear from you? You guys have gotten to hear from me for so many years on The 4:13, but I wanna hear from you. I need to hear your heart. I wanna know what you care about. And here's how we're gonna do it...

I have got a survey waiting for you. It is on your Show Notes. Whatever podcast platform you are listening on right now, you can find your Show Notes and there will be a link to a survey. It'll take you three to five minutes, and it'll just help me know what's in your heart, what's in your head, what your thoughts are, what your hopes for, what you enjoy, because really we want to make the 4:13 Podcast exactly what meets your needs.

So go to your podcast player. You can always find, though, Show Notes at 413podcast.com, and let me hear your voice as you click on that survey and take five minutes to share with me. Now here's the podcast.

Tim Hawkins: It could be a little intimidating, but people were so nice. I think that other comics that are pros are -- they respect you for trying and they know that you're -- they're going to do whatever they can to help. And it's only when you get better than they are, then that's when they start hating you and treating you -- that's when they stop laughing at you, is when you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: You're like, ooh, I've made it.

Tim Hawkins: If you're in a club and you're -- and then the comedians are laughing in the back, you know you're bad. But when they're not laughing, that's when you know you've made it.

Group of Women: Episode 413! (Cheering)

Jennifer Rothschild: It's here, Episode 413 of the 413podcast.com, and, oh, this is a special episode. And I'm so glad you're here, because I just had to have one of my favorite people with us. Tim Hawkins. Yes. You know Tim. He is a hilarious comedian, and he puts together just such keen observation, along with the most hilarious and clever song parodies. And he keeps it all clean and smart. I tell you, I laugh so hard at his shows.

But guess what? You get the behind-the-scenes Tim. He is still just as keen, just as clever, and just as funny. But you know what? You get to see into Tim Hawkins' heart today. And Tim and I, we even talked some C.S. Lewis. Because, as C.S. Lewis wrote, "Joy is the serious business of heaven."

So, our friends, let's get serious about joy today on Episode 413.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends, Episode 413.

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've been shoved in the closet for seven years together.

KC Wright: (Singing) Under the stairs.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Under the stairs doing The 4:13. And here's the thing. It has been a wonderful experience --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And things are about to change around here. You're still going to be part of the podcast, it's still going to be the same great content, but it will be a new look and a new sound. And so for the next month we're going to send you over to Spotify to listen to some of the best episodes of the 4:13 Podcast, because I've curated playlists for you. Okay?

So you're going to get to listen to playlists on whatever you need. Fresh starts, like, what to say when you talk to yourself and how to start new habits. Or perhaps it's relationships, whether it's with adult kids or marriage or just a difficult forgiveness situation.

Or perhaps you need to listen to some mental health episodes for the month of August to just kind of help you get your mental health in better condition, because I've got episodes on depression and anxiety and hope and -- such good stuff.

But you know what my favorite playlist is that I created?

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Audio pictures.

KC Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I have curated all my favorite audio pictures that is unique to the 4:13 Podcast and to what we do around here. I take you on all my favorite trips, to England, to Italy, to the Badlands, camping with my family. It's so fun.

KC Wright: So even if you have a staycation this year --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: -- you can mentally travel the world --

Jennifer Rothschild: You can.

KC Wright: -- via Spotify.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can.

Okay. So even if you don't typically listen to The 4:13 on Spotify, there is a free version. You just pop over there. And here's why. Because for the month of August, we're doing a refresh around here, and so we will not have any brand-new live episodes until the first of September.

But because you are following the podcast -- remember? -- that means you have hit "follow," so you'll be notified when the podcast is dropping and you'll be the first to know what the new look, the new sound, maybe even a new name.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. There's a lot. So make sure you have filled out that survey if you did not. I've invited you to do that the last couple of weeks, and I'm inviting you one more time. On your Show Notes where you're listening, you will see there is a link to a survey. It'll take you three to five minutes for you to fill it out. And KC and I really want to hear from you. You've heard from us for seven years. We need to hear from you.

KC Wright: It's time for you to speak up.

Jennifer Rothschild: We need to hear your heart. Okay?

KC Wright: We do.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do.

Now, I waited for this 413 episode to have Tim Hawkins. He's one of my favorite people.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But KC told me something right before we started that I said, "Oh, you got to just share this before Tim Hawkins." Because, my people --

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- he was on ChatGPT.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Now, can I just set it up for you?

KC Wright: You set it up.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm setting it up. Okay.

KC Wright: Go ahead.

Jennifer Rothschild: So he'd had a -- you know, he's a pastor. He had one of those days, right? He had been doing food pantry, he was dealing with some stuff around the church like getting trees taken down. And, you know, he's also trying to prepare messages, et cetera. His worship leader texts and says, "Hey, can you give me an idea of what the message is?" Well, he's in a mood.

And so instead of him telling her what the message is, he goes to ChatGPT and he says, "Give me some of the most hilarious, weirdest sermon titles you can think of," so he could send them to his worship leader.

All right, KC, share with us what our artificial intelligent comedian came up with for the best sermon titles for the weirdest, most hilarious sermons ever.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. Here's one. "The Devil Made Me Do It, Said Nobody Accountable Ever." "Jesus Took the Wheel, But You're Still Speeding." "How To Miss God's Will in Ten Easy Steps." Ooh. "Your Miracle Is Not in the Refrigerator." "When God Says 'Go' and You Say 'Hold On.'" "The Church of The Perpetually Offended."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

KC Wright: Uh-huh. "Faith, Feelings, and Facebook Arguments."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

KC Wright: "The Prodigal Son and Other Terrible Financial Decisions." "Quit Rebuking the Devil and Set an Alarm Clock." This was one of my favorites. "Your Flesh is a Terrible Life Coach.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, that's true.

KC Wright: Which out of all of them, that could really be a great sermon.

Jennifer Rothschild: Actually true.

KC Wright: "The Problem Isn't the Devil, It's Your Notifications." "How to Be Spirit-Led Without Being Weird." And then here's the last one. "Did Not Our Hearts Burn Within Us, Or Was That Taco Bell?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Good job, ChatGPT. That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what would be really funny is to come up with worship songs for each of those.

Okay. Anyway, I'm sure our next guest -- last guest of The 4:13 -- and by the way, as I say "last" -- any time I say the word "last," people, that does not mean we're done. Does not mean we're done. It just means we're refreshing and we're about to transition to a new name, new look, new sound. So in honor of the last 4:13 as we know it, let's hear from the funniest guy I know, Tim Hawkins.

All right. KC and I already talked about just how excited we are to have Tim Hawkins, because he is -- and I'm now speaking to you, Tim. You are one of our very favorites. So I'm grateful you're with us. Before we even get into all the comedy you're doing, I want to know this. Tim Hawkins growing up, were you funny as a kid? Like, I have a grandchild who thinks he is hilarious, and sometimes he is.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I want to know, were you one of those kids who actually was funny or thought you were funny or -- give us a feel for that.

Tim Hawkins: Oh, man, I -- well, being a redheaded -- what was the -- what'd they used to call me? Opie Taylor, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: It's like, didn't really have looks to fall back on, I had to rely on other things to get attention. So I don't know, I guess I was just a big fan of the culture. I love music and movies and TV and all that kind of stuff, and I did a lot of, like, impressions and things like that. So that would be kind of, oh, he's the voice guy, or he's this -- you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- kind of that. Yeah, I would just -- I would learn to use being funny to kind of break the ice, and kind of that was my identity. And I enjoyed it too. It wasn't like I was trying -- I don't know. I just really enjoyed it. We had a very fun family, and we had then -- and I thought American culture was very entertaining. I fell in love with it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and it was -- so what you're saying, it's just a natural outgrowth of your DNA. It's just how you were wired. It wasn't an effort.

Tim Hawkins: I guess so.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: Hey, and, Jennifer, you know, I'm -- when I say this, I'm not lying. I'm not -- I'm not the funniest person in my family. I mean --

Jennifer Rothschild: Who is?

Tim Hawkins: -- I just write it down. Everybody. Oh, my gosh.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do agree.

Tim Hawkins: Heather's hilarious. It's just they have their own style and they -- and we laugh a lot and -- so I'm not very vocal at home. I have to be entertained too.

Jennifer Rothschild: You and I have had a chance to be together when you weren't on stage, and that's one of the things I liked about you. It's not like you're always on, the person you're on stage.

Tim Hawkins: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're still the authentic person on stage that you are off stage. But, yeah, you're quiet, you listen. In fact, that's something I want to talk to you about in a minute. Because you're an observer. Okay? I can tell you are an observer. So I want to go there in a sec.

But before we do -- so you grew up, you're a funny kid, just because it's how you're wired. But I'm curious, then, when did, like, you go, oh, wait a minute, like, I might be good at this and I might try this professionally? Like, do you remember, like, when you made that transition, what your first official gig was and, like, what it was like? I'm just curious, because everybody has to have a, quote/unquote, start.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. I think there's two. Because, I mean, I started in -- you got the comedy club scene and then you have the church scene. So I remember my friend Stacy Mears calls me up, she goes, "Hey, Tim, can you be funny for five minutes at our youth group in my boyfriend's basement?"

And I'm like, "Sure I can." And I hung up the phone and I'm like, "I don't have anything to say. I have no material." So I was like, "All right." So that was kind of the -- somebody just asked me, you know.

And then the comedy club thing was that they had these open mic nights where you can do three to five minutes for anybody who wants to go -- calls in early enough and gets their name on a list.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

Tim Hawkins: So I don't -- you know, it was -- I knew I wanted to do it, but there was no manual for it, there's no, like, school -- right? --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right, right.

Tim Hawkins: -- that kind of leads you and walks you through. So you just kind of have to figure out on your own. That's one of the beauties of it, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- just finding, okay, where does this -- where can you do it. And actually you can do comedy anywhere there's a group of people that are willing to, you know, listen to what you have to say, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and I wonder what that was like for you, because you're around -- in that setting, I would think, with comedy clubs, you are around comedians who are far more experienced than you. And were you intimidated at all? Or, like, how did you manage the, ooh, that didn't go over well, the sense of failure?

Or, I mean, did it -- or were you just super resilient, like, okay, no big there. Good, I'm getting there?

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: How was that for you?

Tim Hawkins: Well, that was when -- it kind of proved to me this is where -- probably a good path, because when I would fail at it, I still wanted to do it. There's no -- there was no thought in my mind that I was going to quit. It's like, okay, what do I need to change to make this better? Because I know -- after you get that first laugh, you're done. You're chasing that feeling for the rest of your life. So you're kind of stuck.

So that's what -- and that's what I tell young people, like, that's usually a good kind of a sign for you to know this is what you should be doing, is when you fail but you still -- there's never a question of quitting. And that's not true with everything that I've tried. Especially sales and all this other stuff, I'd fail and I'd want to quit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: I just didn't -- it wasn't in me. So it could be a little intimidating, but people were so nice. I think that other comics that are pros are -- they respect you for trying and they know that they're going to do whatever they can to help. And it's only when you get better than they are, then that's when they start hating you and treating you -- that's when they stop laughing at you, is when you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: You're like, ooh, I've made it.

Tim Hawkins: If you're in a club and the comedians are laughing in the back, you know you're bad. But when they're not laughing, that's when you know you've made it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's awesome. That's awesome. But what a great life principle too, that we think that we're only supposed to succeed at things we're good at and that the affirmation is success.

But what you're saying here is pay attention. When you fail and you want to do it again and you want to keep trying and learning, that is likely an affirmation that you're in the right path.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. It's powerful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that, Tim.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah, that's powerful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Okay, bro. So I have heard you say in the past that your comedy is not about being witty, but about connecting emotionally with your audience. So explain that and tell us how that, like, shapes your writing, what you choose to do in your stand-up.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. Well, when I first started out, I tried to write what I thought was funny. And then I would notice that -- as in the show, I would talk about just stuff about, like, Mom or Dad or things that she actually used to say, people laughed harder. And I realized that the goal is to relate to your audience. That's when the biggest laughs come.

It doesn't have to be, like you said, witty, or you're not -- it's not a magic trick. It's something that you're just sharing your experience and other people will laugh. Like me and you will talk about a time we had. You know, okay, me and you and Phil and Heather went out to dinner and this was said and done.

And it's not -- it's just that we remember it together. There's a strength and connection in those shared experiences. And people laugh a lot of times not only 'cause they relate, because they're -- they laugh out of a sense of relief. It's like, oh, I'm not alone here.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tim Hawkins: I'm not the only one who does this, right? I'm not -- right, I'm not the only one who says this phrase or had a mom that did this or a dad that said that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: And I think that as a speaker, performer, whatever, there are people that go to the next level as far as connecting with their audiences. There are a lot of comedians out there that are good joke writers, but at the end you don't really feel like you know who they are. Because they just tell good jokes --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Tim Hawkins: -- but you're like, okay, I don't feel like this is -- I know you any better or -- you know, you're great, I just can't -- there wasn't that level of connection there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and you as the audience don't feel known.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think that is the intangible that I experience, like, when I get to listen to you, is because I feel like, oh, yeah, he gets me.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because we're all the same. I mean -- in fact, one of my principles in writing and speaking is to never forget that your audience is always going read and listen autobiographically. Essentially -- we don't mean for it to be, but it's about us.

Like, I'm the audience, it's about me. And so I want to learn about what you're saying or experience what you're giving me, but it's really because I get it. I want to be seen, I want to be known. I think that's just human nature.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah, the more universal -- I mean, the more specific you are with your life and your funny observations, I think the more universal it is.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm kind of lazy. I don't really do topical humor, like, you know, do new -- you know, jokes about the news, because the next week it's not going to be relevant anymore.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, true.

Tim Hawkins: So I think that, yeah, I'm trying to hit on the human experience as a whole as much as possible. And, yeah, there are some jokes and bits I can't do anymore because they're just not -- you know, you don't do as many COVID jokes --

Jennifer Rothschild: No. They timed out.

Tim Hawkins: -- now as you used to. Right, they kind of timed out. I mean, you can still reference it because it was such a huge thing, but -- yeah, yeah. But the human experience and marriage and things like that, that's stuff that'll last forever.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, never grows old.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So now here you are, you do have something new that's streaming available. And we're going to tell everybody specifically and have links, by the way, where they can stream. But I know it's Amazon Prime, et cetera. Okay. It's called Fist Bump.

Tim Hawkins: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. That -- I can't even imagine where it came from, so I don't want you to disclose too much if you don't want to. But what's the point of Fist Bump?

Tim Hawkins: No, it's just -- you know, I usually get titles from -- I'll look over the show and say, okay, what's kind of a funny -- like, a bit that has a line in it that might sound like a good title? And Fist Bump just comes out of that.

Coming out of COVID, just saying it's nice to see faces and shake hands again, and just saying that the guys who wouldn't shake your hand during COVID, they would just fist bump you like they were saving the planet. And I'm like, yeah, so COVID can't get around the back of the knuckles? I mean, it's just playing on that ridiculous, you know, pseudoscientific thinking that everybody was tossing around like they were geniuses.

And then I do -- one of the lines was I just did the regular bump, like I'm bumping them with my booty. Like, it's just -- it's just ridiculous. So, yeah, that's where Fist Bump comes from.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I love it. I love it. And, yeah, there is a great sense of relief and humor now that we look back and we're on this side of COVID. I'm grateful.

Okay. And so I mentioned earlier that I think you are an observer. So even though I can't see, I can detect in you, in the quietness, I can tell you are soaking it in and observing.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So because I think you're constantly studying life and people, I'm curious, then, how you decide which moments that you can turn into comedy. And, like, let's also talk about that, like, with your family. You know, are they cool with it always?

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah, well, they're cool -- well, not only -- I think with my family -- like, there's no courtesy laughter with your family. So when you make them laugh, it's earned. You did a good thing.

But I don't -- in the old days, I used to sit down and try to grind out, once again, what I thought was funny. Now I just live my life and just -- I have my radar up. Like, if me and you will be talking about something and the concept or something will be said, I'm like, okay, that's funny, that concept or that premise is funny.

So I do less writing now, but I use more of it on stage, if that makes sense. Before I look at my old notebooks and, you know, 99% of it is just unusable. Just not even close. Just embarrassing. But that's the thing. You have to fight through the cringe, they say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: You fight through the cringe. And I'm glad I didn't quit. Because then you start finding your own voice and then -- like, now I feel -- when I do shows now, I think they're better than they've ever been. And not because -- and I'm not grinding and trying to prove myself. It's like, I think this is good. And I'm not here for me. I'm here for the one person who really needs this, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- and not trying to break this guy in the front with his arms crossed who's been frowning the whole time. Hey, dude, I have no control. I'm here to serve and to give laughs and not get them. And then that makes it a lot more fun. If you're using your art for something else, then it's gonna -- you're gonna get real unhappy real quick.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, it's just --

Tim Hawkins: It's, like, stick to what you love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, amen. Okay, that's a good word. Well, I used to tell my boys, selfish people aren't happy people.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And bottom line is if it's all about you and you're trying to get laughs rather than give laughs, you're right --

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- unhappy. It's unsatisfying. Self cannot satisfy self.

Tim Hawkins: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Tim. So speaking of your shows now -- and I might -- I do agree -- comedy is one of my things. I love it. And so I don't want to make you feel awkward, but you are absolutely one of my favorites. And that's not just because I like you. Like, I just love your skill and your craft.

And so one of the things you do that I love, and you're known for, is parodying songs. And so you play keys, you play guitar. And you do sing well, dude. So talk to me about that.

Tim Hawkins: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that you parody songs. I want to know if you grew up musical, if you had lessons, et cetera. And then what is it about a song that you might hear, a popular song that you think, oh, that'd be funny?

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. Well, yeah, there you go. I mean, that's -- a lot of songs that I do parody are just excuses to perform them because I like them.

Jennifer Rothschild: You like music, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: I just -- I like it. So I think that when you're doing a parody, it has to have some payoff. It's not just, oh, it sounds like something else. I want it to have a point and to have a punchline. And if I write a parody and the second verse isn't as good as the first, then I'll drop it and I'll just make it shorter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

Tim Hawkins: But now -- I don't know. Music is -- that inspires me more than anything, more than even comedy does. It's always -- I love the energy. I think it's -- I hired my son Levi. He's my producer now, and we're actually -- I'm finishing up a record of songs that we're going to release in a couple of months probably.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sweet.

Tim Hawkins: And that's got some -- it's got a couple of -- I wrote a song for Heather, I wrote a song for my granddaughter, I wrote some -- there's some funny songs on there, some instrumental songs. So it's going to be just stuff I've wanted to do for a long time, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Tim Hawkins: Isn't that fun?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, way to go. Yeah. Way to go. I love that. And I love Heather, and I'm so glad you've written a song for her.

Tim Hawkins: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is really your secret sauce.

Tim Hawkins: She is. It does take a team, and it does -- you know, you've got Phil, I've got Heather. It is -- I don't know -- it wouldn't be possible without them.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Tim Hawkins: I mean, I could do comedy, but come home to absolutely nothing and -- just shambles and chaos. She keeps it all together, and it's -- my gosh, it's fun to grow something with other people. And sometimes we got to fall, and it's good to know there's people we can fall back on and that love us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Tim Hawkins: Tell us the truth.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then you enjoy the fruit of your labor together. And may it be sweet fruit the rest of y'all's days.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's -- topics that you've dealt with. Okay. And parodies. Like, you've dealt with fast food, you've dealt with fishing. Okay, hilarious. But I'm curious, are there any topics that you would just be like, no, I'm never gonna touch that in a song? I wanna know.

Tim Hawkins: Well, there you go. I don't get into a bunch of, like, church dogmatic theological stuff. I'll touch on the quirky things that church people do. A lot of hand sanitizer --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- stuff around the church or the way we raise our hands when we're in worship or whatever. That's fair game. I don't get into that. I don't like any kind of body imaging, body shaming stuff. If it's me, that's fine. I can shame my own body all I want. But I don't like getting into kind of, like, obese jokes or anything like that. I don't think that's --

Jennifer Rothschild: Not cool, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: It's just not cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no.

Tim Hawkins: To me, yeah, it's just not. So -- and I don't -- and then political stuff, I'll jump in and jump out. I'll make little comments here and there, but that's just not my forte.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: My forte is Chick-fil-A and -- right? -- and yoga pants and all that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Amen.

Tim Hawkins: You know, if they -- people know where to go if they want to get the deeper stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love it. And what it does, Tim, too, it's all unifying. And that's -- there's no othering, there's no divisiveness, and I love that. I think that's why the Lord has just blessed, I mean, besides just your skill.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you said the word "deep," so I want to go deep for a second. Okay?

Tim Hawkins: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I am a C.S. Lewis geek. And one of my favorite quotes, he says, "Joy is the serious business of heaven." Okay. So you bring joy and laughter and release. And I'm curious what you think the spiritual impact of that is and how it might help us live heaven now.

Tim Hawkins: Well, I think -- and C.S. Lewis talks about that in one of his books. He talks about that he saw a biscuit tin or something --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he did.

Tim Hawkins: -- and it took him to a place, I think -- and it took him to a place where just for a moment that -- it was a sense of melancholy or a -- just this sense of joy. And he calls it longing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Tim Hawkins: And I think that I have those things -- and I get chills just talking right now -- where I will -- something will hit me, a smell or a sight or a sound or something, that will take me to a place that I don't even know if I've been before, but I'm -- it recognizes it, and it takes me -- and almost it feels like a slice of heaven. It feels like God is -- he's revealing just a piece, a shadow of what heaven is like, and then it's gone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: So too many people, I think, have given this idea that God is just the justice side of God and the dark side, or whatever you want to call it, the mean side or the one who keeps -- who has rules.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Tim Hawkins: And then, "Eye has not seen, ear has not heard," just the things he has planned for -- that means something. It's true, and we can't grasp it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: How good he is and how wonderful and how much joy he brings.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Tim Hawkins: So -- and to be a part of that, like -- even, like, when I do these shows and stuff, I mean, there's people going through stuff that I'll never know. I hear some stories about people, well, I had this and that and I listened to your -- or we would just watch your YouTube stuff and all that. I can't grasp that. I feel like I don't have the gratitude enough to be grateful for that enough --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- how special that is coming out of a place where I'm in my early 30s and I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life. And I'm on my third kid and I'm getting fired from jobs because I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing. And then he -- you know? And then he brings on this thing that, okay, you do this. This is what I want you to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Wow. I love it, Tim. Well, I do think walking in your calling is bringing a little heaven to earth, you know. And it just so happens that you traffic in the business of joy.

And by the way, yeah, you're right, that biscuit tin picture of C.S. Lewis' longing, it does -- that beautiful ache that is almost never satisfied, which makes you long for it more, you know, I mean, that's -- when I sit and laugh and just have the abandonment of being able to laugh.

You are, I believe, bringing that little bit of heaven to earth, that glimpse of just the beauty of all of it and what it'll be like forever. Yeah, abandonment. Abandonment. I love it.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Wow. Okay. Well, I'm going to ask you two more questions.

This one -- don't want to put you on the spot, but when you mention that Scripture, you know, about no eye has seen, I'm curious, is there any anchor passage for you that your whole life -- and this is not Tim the comedian, this is Tim the human, the Christ follower. Is there any anchor passage that just has always been one that you've gone to or sustained you or been meaningful to you?

Tim Hawkins: Well, you know, I had the old joke that I wrote the wrong verse. Psalm 34:8 is, "Taste and see that the Lord is good. Happy are those who take refuge in him." But I put the wrong verse and it was horrible.

Jennifer Rothschild: What was it?

Tim Hawkins: It was Psalm 38:7.

Jennifer Rothschild: What did it say?

Tim Hawkins: "I have a painful disease in my loins."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

Tim Hawkins: So that's -- I don't -- that was a bad memory.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I'd say.

Tim Hawkins: That's the opposite of longing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. Yeah, but that was it for a long time.

And then Heather and I have kind of -- it's Philemon. It talks about refreshing the saints, refreshing of the soul of the saints. That's been one that's been kind of our filter just as a family to -- we're here.

I think God has equipped us to refresh people, to host parties, to have people over, to let them live with us if they need a place to stay, whatever. And that's where we both are. Heather's made such a beautiful home, and I just work as hard as I can to make -- you know, to kind of give her the free rein to do what she needs to do and to make things, you know, welcoming and -- you know?

And I think it makes a difference. And we're not perfect parents at all, but we're talking the other day, like, how did our kids turn out so good?

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you, Lord.

Tim Hawkins: And I don't -- and I think it's -- I think one of the reasons is that we did not get freaked out by results. We just said -- we just tried to be as real as possible, love them as much as we could, and not freak out if they had doubts or if they had -- you know, if they were getting tattoos or -- you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right, right.

Tim Hawkins: We love you no matter what and we're here to help you figure this life out. And we don't have all the answers. That is -- we're here to partner with you to figure this stuff out --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Tim Hawkins: -- when you get to be an adult. And, you know, it's -- they love the Lord, and we're thankful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I can attest they really have all turned out just beautifully, either because of or in spite of you. Either one, doesn't matter.

Tim Hawkins: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Lord is good, right? The Lord is good.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I always tell Phil, we do not take credit for our kids' success and we do not take responsibility for when they choose to blow it. We just don't. The outcomes are not the point. It's the daily and the love and the -- yeah, humility.

Tim Hawkins: Yeah. It's the long haul, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is the long haul. Okay. Well, speaking of the long haul, this one's come to an end, so we're gonna hit our last question here, Tim.

All right. I know everybody listening clearly is not an aspiring comedian. All right? But you are a comedian. And all of us, I believe, have the responsibility to live out our calling well, whatever it is -- okay? -- and to communicate clearly for the sake of just living out our faith well in front of people.

So what kind of advice would you give to -- let's say it's an aspiring comedian or just somebody walking in their calling, and they're wanting to build their career, whatever their lane is, but they don't want to sacrifice -- in this world there's a lot of pressure, and they don't want to sacrifice their voice or their virtues or their values. What advice would you give them?

Tim Hawkins: I would say just be that same person that makes your friends laugh and your family laugh in the living room. You don't have to be something else. Once again, people laugh harder if they can relate to what you're talking about. So as much as you can talk about, much as you can land on truth, how you really feel about things, how you really see things, that's going to take you a lot farther than any kind of bad language or whatever.

People want to connect. And the more you connect, the more successful you're going to be. And live your life, make notes, and tell strangers. There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. No matter what you do, our friends, you be the same person on and off stage. Because think about it, you have a stage, I have a stage. We all have a stage. It's that place in life where we do our thing or hang with our people.

Whatever it is that we do, we need to land on truth, like Tim said, because people want to connect. And the more that you connect with truth, the more successful you're going to be at whatever it is you do. I just really thought that that advice, like, it applies to all of us, no matter what it is that we do.

KC Wright: 100% agree. And I think we would all benefit from writing down our everything, as Tim said. Live your life, take notes, and tell strangers. You know, that could be on a tombstone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it really could be.

KC Wright: Those are really good words to live by.

We will have a transcript of this entire conversation on the Show Notes. Plus, we will connect you to his latest special. It's called Fist Bump. So you and your people can watch it and laugh out loud together. Show Notes are at 413podcast.com/413 --

Jennifer Rothschild: 413.

KC Wright: -- or on whatever podcast player you're listening to. It's the 4:13 Podcast on The 4:13. Oh, my goodness, what's going on in the Matrix?

And now I'm going to say our cheesy ending --

Jennifer Rothschild: Cheesy ending.

KC Wright: -- the cheesy ending we never ever change, for the very last time. Remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can!

Jennifer Rothschild: We did it, KC!

KC Wright: We did it!

Jennifer Rothschild: Episode 413. High five.

KC Wright: Fist bump.

Jennifer Rothschild: Fist bump. Yeah.

All right. Go to Spotify for the month of August. Stay tuned. Make sure you follow the podcast.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's gonna be so good when we come back live in September.

KC Wright: Everyone's getting Botox. It's a facelift. You get a facelift, you get a facelift. That's biblical. He's coming back for a church without spot and wrinkle --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, dude, that was --

KC Wright: -- so there you go.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Awaken Delight? With Stephanie Rousselle

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, 4:13ers, this is Jennifer, and I just need to ask you something. Can I please hear from you? You guys have gotten to hear from me for so many years on The 4:13, but I wanna hear from you. I need to hear your heart. I want to know what you care about. And here's how we're gonna do it.

I have got a survey waiting for you. It is on your Show Notes. Whatever podcast platform you are listening on right now, you can find your Show Notes and there will be a link to a survey. It'll take you three to five minutes, and it'll just help me know what's in your heart, what's in your head, what your thoughts are, what your hopes for, what you enjoy, because really we want to make the 4:13 Podcast exactly what meets your needs.

So go to your podcast player -- you can always find, though, Show Notes at 413podcast.com -- and let me hear your voice as you click on that survey and take five minutes to share with me.

Now here's the podcast.

Stephanie Rousselle: When we aim to make God our delight, that means we aim to taste his deliciousness, spiritually speaking. You know, like discovering that the presence of God is flavorful, that the love of God is intoxicating, that the glory of God is enthralling. Because, you know, I think Scripture doesn't call us to a disembodied experience of God. Feasting on the Lord, it's for our five senses as well as it is for our soul, right? And so coming to Scripture and understanding it from that perspective.

Jennifer Rothschild: Delighting in God changes everything. It changes how you experience faith, relationships, circumstances, and even how you see yourself. You can experience Psalm 37:4 as your daily delightful reality. Do you know what that means? Well, you are about to. Because on today's episode, author and Bible teacher Stephanie Rousselle is going to connect scriptural and theological truths to your everyday life.

Now, this is Stephanie's first book, and yours truly, me, I had the privilege of writing the foreword. This is about to awaken delight, so buckle up and get ready to learn about delight.

KC, the alarm clock is ringing. It's time to awaken delight.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey friends. That's KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And you got it, it's two friends and one topic and zero stress here in the podcast closet. And you know our goal for the 4:13 Podcast for the last seven years has been to help you and equip you, because you are capable, through Christ, of being exactly what he's called you to be and doing exactly what he's created you to do through the power of Christ in you.

And that has been our goal. And we are heading up to our last episode of The 4:13, 413.

KC Wright: Well, the last episode of the 4:13 Podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Titled --

KC Wright: Titled.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- 413.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: We are not done, we are not quitting.

KC Wright: Because I'm getting anxiety.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no anxiety for KC. (Whispering) I can't handle it if he has anxiety.

Anyway, we are not doing that, we are not quitting.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: But we are about to do something very fun and transition. And you guys who have been listening know that we want you to be a part of it.

And part of the way we want you to be a part -- you heard at the beginning I invited you to please engage in this survey that we're doing, because we want to hear your voice. We want to know your heart, because that will help us craft this transition of the podcast to make sure it meets your needs.

We're going to get a new look, new sound, but it's going to be the same great content. It's just going to be packaged a little differently, and I don't want you to miss a thing.

So you also know, if you don't already, we want you to follow the podcast. On whatever podcast platform you're listening, you will see a button that says, "Follow." And all that means is when you press it, you will get notified every time a podcast drops. And that means even when we have our update with our new look, new sound, and same great content, you'll still be notified.

And we want to make sure you don't miss a thing because, y'all, it's gonna be so good.

KC Wright: Woot, woot, woot, woot.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's gonna be so good. And, in fact, next week, Episode 413 --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- we have a very special guest. Oh, my gosh, I cannot wait for you to hear this person.

KC Wright: Oh, goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, and one more thing I want to tell you.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Spotify. If you're not listening on Spotify, I want you to know that during the month of August, when we are not live with The 4:13, while we're busy refreshing around here, I have curated some Spotify playlists for you. Now, here's what that means...

You go to Spotify -- and by the way, don't worry if you're not familiar with it. There is a free version. You are going to be able to engage with these Spotify playlists. That means I've curated playlists that are topical. So, like, if you want to deal with mental health or relationships or getting a fresh start.

KC Wright: I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I've even got some of my audio pictures in a playlist.

KC Wright: Oh, some of my favorite episodes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that way you can travel even if you don't get to leave home --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because you can just put your earbuds in and you are off to Italy or England or wherever else I'm taking you on the audio pictures. Okay, so lots of good stuff coming up.

But I will tell you, it's summer around here and there's lots of good stuff around here too, like garage sales.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I love garage sales, KC --

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because I'm always getting rid of all the stuff that I don't want.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I know you love garage sales.

KC Wright: Well, my dear friends live in a fancy-schmancy neighborhood, and those are the neighborhoods I'm drawn to, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Those are the best neighbors for garage sales.

KC Wright: They got the good stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they do.

KC Wright: Anyway, my daughter, I can't get her to go to a garage sale even if I paid her money. But you know who will go with me to a garage sale?

Jennifer Rothschild: Who?

KC Wright: My sweet mama.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, good.

KC Wright: So it's our thing, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right, right.

KC Wright: It's our thing.

So anyway, I just want to let you know, J.R., that last weekend I went to the fancy-schmancy yard sale.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

KC Wright: And at four different sales I found J.R. books, Jennifer Rothschild books, in the book pile, which is where I always go first.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Because you get quarter books, 50 cent books --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you do.

KC Wright: -- dollar books. So like --

Jennifer Rothschild: I am honored to be in the garage sale.

KC Wright: And out of allegiance and love for you, my dear mother must buy them all.

Jennifer Rothschild: She bought all the books she probably already has.

KC Wright: She has them, of course. Of course. Because she has attended Fresh Grounded Faith for years. She has all the books. But she gives them to her girlfriends --

Jennifer Rothschild: Aw, I love it.

KC Wright: -- she keeps them in her car, "You need this."

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so sweet.

KC Wright: So anyway, I think -- I've heard that that is a sign of success when you land at a garage sale.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay. Well, I'll take it. I'll take it.

KC Wright: Because they have purchased your book, they have consumed your book --

Jennifer Rothschild: And they're done.

KC Wright: -- and now they're passing it on.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. I love that.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'll take it. Whatever spreads the message. And I think it's quite funny, actually.

But I will say this. Friends who love me, you do buy the books from the garage sale. Because the last place we want to see them is in the garbage can.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: So buy them. And if you go in a bookstore and you see a Jennifer Rothschild book --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- let's just walk over to the shelves, my friends, make sure it's not spine out, make sure it's face out --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- so everyone can see it, and then take a picture of yourself pointing to it saying, "This is the best book I've ever read."

KC Wright: Hey, I'm telling you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey. Just kidding. Just kidding.

KC Wright: -- your latest one, it's all the rage. A lot of people --

Jennifer Rothschild: The Lord --

KC Wright: -- have told me, oh, they love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Lord did something special in "Heaven."

Oh, you know what? I know you didn't mean to do this, but you just made the perfect transition. Because this author that we're about to hear from -- she's now an author. She's been a podcaster, Bible teacher. But she has written her first book. I met her many years ago.

And I don't do this a lot, but I felt led from the Lord to write the foreword for her first book. It's called "Awaken Delight," and it's so good. And it's just something I'm very grateful I get to help multiply this message on, because I have appreciated her ministry, her integrity, and the content of her book.

So she's been on the podcast a long time ago, y'all. She was an atheist who came to Christ from France. She's from France. You're going to love her accent.

So, KC, let's remind our friends who Stephanie Rousselle is, and then I can't wait for you to hear this conversation.

KC Wright: Stephanie Rousselle is a Bible teacher, speaker, host of the Gospel Spice Podcast, and founder of Gospel Spice Ministries. Born and raised in France, Stephanie is a former atheist whose life motto is now "God's Glory, Our Delight." Having lived in four different countries during her lifetime, she now lives with her family in Pennsylvania.

Now -- this is gonna be so good --

Jennifer Rothschild: So good.

KC Wright: -- pour your coffee, get ready. Here is Jennifer and Stephanie.

Jennifer Rothschild: And make sure it's French roast. Okay?

All right, Stephanie, I'm glad to have you back again. And you and I have had lots of conversations this summer, and I'm glad we've gotten to talk. Because as I already told our listeners, I have had the privilege of reading your book "Awaken Delight" and writing the foreword.

So let me get to your backstory first, though. Before we get into the book -- which I love -- I want people to know you better. Even though I will link to our former conversation we've had, I still think we've all slept since then, and so let's talk this. Okay, you grew up as an atheist in France. And so I am curious, and our people need to know, what brought you to the United States and, like, what led you to start teaching Scripture?

Stephanie Rousselle: It's so nice to be with you, Jennifer. I just enjoy being with you so much. And you've been so generous in writing the foreword for "Awaken Delight." And I have to say, that foreword is pretty phenomenal, so thank you for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right.

Stephanie Rousselle: And honestly, like, 30-some years ago, you would have described my life today to me back then, I don't think I would have believed you. I would have had you committed to an asylum or something. Because I did grow up as a very staunch atheist in France, and I came to the U.S. as a foreign exchange student when I was 16 years old. So this was over 30 years ago. I came for my senior year of high school, and my goal was to learn English.

And during that year -- long story short -- I ended up spending the entire year with a host family who were the most delightful Christians, the very first actual flesh-and-blood Christians I had ever met. Everything I had ever heard about Christianity was through the lens of my atheist authors and mentors.

And it taught me that our worldview is definitely shaped by the books we read and the voices we trust, and that sometimes those voices can be a little biased. And I thought that my atheist mentors were giving me the truth about Christianity, but the truth is they really weren't. And so when I got to meet flesh-and-blood Christians, I was flabbergasted by their love and their kindness and their intelligence. I had been taught that to be a Christian, you had to check your brains at the door.

And so long story short, I pretty quickly became convinced of the historical truth of Jesus as a human being having lived, died, and risen. And when you're an atheist, to believe in the historical truth of the resurrection, Jennifer, it's very uncomfortable because it shakes your worldview, your belief system. And so that led me on a quest to discover whether I could trust God. Because I realized his claim on my life was not a halfway measure, it was an all-or-nothing sort of thing. Either you surrender to him fully or you don't at all.

And because I was a control freak, it was very difficult for me to come to a place of trusting God. Because it's one thing that Jesus rose from the dead. At the time it didn't tell me that he was necessarily trustworthy. That was another story of actually what became the foundation for me beginning to teach Scripture a few years later.

Because God in his kindness didn't slap me, didn't fry me on the spot with a lightning bolt as I probably deserved, to be honest, but instead he gently, like a gentleman, with kindness and meekness, challenged my worldview and said, well, you're -- well, he didn't say in an audible voice, right?

But basically my understanding was, okay, you're telling me, Stephanie, that you can't trust me. But how do you know that? How do you know that something or someone is trustworthy until you give them a chance? And that was kind of a good point, right? I mean, you've probably heard the illustration of a chair. You don't know if a chair is stable until you actually sit in it. It can look good, but then you don't really know until you sit in it.

And I like to link that more to chocolate. As you know -- and I know you like dark chocolate too, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Stephanie Rousselle: If you've never tasted really good quality European, French or Swiss or Belgian chocolate, I'd like to humbly suggest that maybe you don't -- you haven't quite experienced why God created cocoa in the first place. I think God invented cocoa so that we could make chocolate out of it, and really good chocolate. But if you haven't tasted that quality of chocolate, maybe you're not a big fan of chocolate, but it could be that you've never really tasted the good thing.

And God challenged me on that, and he kind of hinted at the fact that maybe I should taste and see whether he actually is good before I chose to reject him. And so in his kindness, he allowed me what I like to smile and look back as a trial period, if you will.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Rousselle: I thought I was in charge of my life at the time, and so I gave him one week. I told God, okay, for one week I'm gonna stop fighting you. I'm going to embrace everything I have learned theologically about who you are and I am going to live in faith. And that's me tasting the chocolate and let's see what happens. And at the end of the week, if I don't like it, God, I'm taking my life back and you're out the door. I'm firing you sort of thing. The arrogance, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's funny.

Stephanie Rousselle: That's why God is so kind, because he meets us on our terms, which is incredible to me.

And so during that week, I tasted the chocolate, and of course I fell in love with him. And the freedom of being loved and delighted in, the freedom to actually be able to delight in God and love him back for the first time ever, very imperfectly, with so many flaws. And still to this day, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Stephanie Rousselle: And this was 30-plus years ago. And so I never looked back. I have tasted and seen the chocolate of the goodness of God, and that became the foundation for my teaching. Because as I started looking around -- so I came back to France, married my sweetheart, and then we have traveled all over the world. And everywhere I have been, I have encountered people, Christians mostly, but also active seekers, who don't experience God as delightful and delicious, if I may say. And we can go to the French for that if you want.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I am curious about that. You will need to hit that.

Stephanie Rousselle: So basically, yeah, that's what I do. God has, in his unfathomable, otherworldly kindness, made a calling upon my life that if he had asked my opinion, I would have told him he was crazy. But, you know, he invited me to tell others about the delight in him that he has allowed me to experience. And so, yeah, so that's the story.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so there is this -- because you just mentioned it -- which I love the story, by the way. It reminds me a little bit of C.S. Lewis, the most reluctant convert in England, you know?

Stephanie Rousselle: Oh, so funny you should say that, because that's how -- when I discovered C.S. Lewis a few years later, and especially that part of his story, that's how I started describing myself. I was the most reluctant convert in all of France in my day.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. I love it. Okay. But your French background has helped deepen your understanding of Scripture. So just go there real quickly with the delicious delight thing. Tell us about that.

Stephanie Rousselle: Right. So I'm bilingual, right? I still have an accent that I can't get rid of in English, but I'm a native French speaker, obviously. And so "delight" -- one of the things I love to do is to study Scripture in both languages.

And I think for anyone who speaks another language, there's such a depth in experiencing Scripture in a language other than our own. And we see it so much with the Hebrew and the Greek, the original texts, but I think there's so much to learn about Scripture in any other language you are fortunate enough to be able to speak.

And so for me, that word "delight" is one of those rare words that exudes maybe more depth and deliciousness in French than in English. I have to say that I am a huge fan of the English language. I just absolutely love this language so much. But the French for the word "delight" is the word "délice." And it might remind you of another English word, the word "delicious," right?

Because in French, we have only one word for the two English words "delight" and "deliciousness," and it's the word "délice." And that word "délice" applies to any feast that is for the body, the mind, or the spirit, where beauty plays an element, as in tasting and seeing that the Lord is good. That's a form of beauty.

And so, you know, Psalm 37:4, "Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart," which is kind of the anchor for my book and for my ministry. "Delight yourself in the Lord," in French, God is both delightful and delicious.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that, Stephanie. I love that. That is a paradigm shift for us just English speakers who don't think about the depth of that language nuance. I love that.

Okay. So I was going to ask you about that particular Scripture, and so I'm glad you mentioned it, because I know that does anchor your whole ministry and this book. And we want to have this kind of delight, the deliciousness awakened within us. But I am also curious, are there any other passages of Scripture that help to reshape your understanding of God's affection for you?

Because we can delight in God, yes, out of discipline. Oh, but, boy, does it become a natural desire when we recognize his affection toward us. So are there any Scripture passages that helped ignite that understanding of his affection toward you?

Stephanie Rousselle: So good. Yeah. So definitely Psalm 34:8, which I've mentioned, "Taste and see that the Lord is good." Because when you mix that with "Delight yourself in the Lord," you know, what does delighting God taste like? When we aim to make God our delight, that means we aim to taste his deliciousness, spiritually speaking, discovering that the presence of God is flavorful, that the love of God is intoxicating, that the glory of God is enthralling.

Because, you know, I think Scripture doesn't call us to a disembodied experience of God. Feasting on the Lord, it's for our five senses as well as it is for our soul, right? And so coming to Scripture and understanding it from that perspective.

One of the verses that has helped me the most to do that -- I'll quote maybe two of them quickly. The first is 2 Corinthians 4:6: "For God, who has shone his light in our heart, gave us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face Christ Jesus."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Stephanie Rousselle: And I think that's everything. Because the light of the knowledge of the glory of God -- Paul, when he writes these words, is encompassing all of the cultures of his day. The light was the quest of the Jews, the knowledge was the quest of the Greek, and the glory was the quest of the Romans, right? They didn't want to be forgotten.

If you've been to Rome and you've seen all the architecture and the statues, to be forgotten was the worst thing that could happen to you if you were a Roman.

And so the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, Paul is encompassing all of the quests of all of the cultures he knew in that day. And he says, where do we find that? In the face of Christ Jesus. In his presence.

Because in the Hebrew language, the word "face" and the word "presence" are the same word. Because -- like, you and I are on Zoom right now, so we're not actually together in the same room. But if you want to be in the presence of someone, you have to be face to face with them. In ancient Judaism, obviously, you have to be in the same room.

And so the light of the knowledge of the glory of God is found in the same room as Christ Jesus, in the presence of Christ Jesus. So when we know Jesus, that's when we experience the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, which is delight in him. So that's the first passage. And so I think my entire life is summed up in wanting to know Jesus more. And I know that's so important to you as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Stephanie Rousselle: And the other verse is Philippians 3:10, is, "For my determined purpose is that I may know Christ through the power of his resurrection and the fellowship in his sufferings." And that's where it gets a little harder, because Paul is describing how he used to live a life of arrogance and control and self-centeredness.

And that was my life. I did it from a place of atheism, he did it from a place of legalism, but it was the same idea. And then he counts everything but loss for the glory and the knowledge of knowing Jesus Christ, his Lord, through the power of the resurrection. And that's all of eternity. That is something you and I long for so deeply.

And at the same time, the fellowship in his sufferings. Paul is saying we can't really know Jesus -- the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the presence of Jesus, we can't know that unless we experience a measure of the sufferings of Jesus.

So then the question becomes how do we delight in God, rooted in his delight of us, when we go through hard times, when we experience a measure of the sufferings of Jesus so that we can taste and see his goodness through knowing his presence more. So these are some of the passages I think that have really anchored my awe and my wonder of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, just that little tidbit, I'll say, since we're talking about food, those little bite-sized pieces, they whet my appetite. And I know that our listeners are feeling the same way. And this is what the book will give you.

So I'm so grateful, Stephanie, that you just teased that a little bit, because it does. The thing is, when we taste something good, we want to taste more. And that really is this picture of delighting in God. It is this achy dissatisfaction that is so satisfying, it makes us want more. Okay?

But I am curious about this. Because a lot of times when we're reading Scripture, sometimes we -- it's about us. Okay. Like, it's self-help. Okay? But I sense, from what I have read in your book, that when we delight in God -- okay, when it's about God and our delight in God, it can actually shape our sense of self, our identity. Kind of give us an understanding of how that happens.

Stephanie Rousselle: Yes. Oh, you are absolutely right. I have a very simple way of describing that, right? If God really created us, he is the source of everything, right? So oftentimes in our culture, I've noticed that we start with ourselves, who I am, maybe even what I do. My choices, my actions, my preferences in any area are going to determine who I am. That's what the culture says, right?

So I make a choice, I make a decision, I choose a particular lifestyle or a series of actions and that determines who I am. And then by extension, because I am fully sufficient and capable, I determine reality. I am the author and the definer of truth; therefore, I get to define God. So what I do determines who I am, which in turn determines who God is in my opinion, which is the only viable opinion in this day's culture.

That is, I think, a complete reversal of biblical truth, and it's literally stand -- like, we're trying to stand on our heads or we're trying to walk with our hands. I don't know. It's completely upside down, so no wonder our culture is so confused.

Because I think biblically speaking it's exactly the other way around. Everything starts with who God is. That determines what God does, because his actions are always in perfect complementarity with his character. And so that's the top, who God is and what he does and what he has done for us, past, present, and future. And that determines who we are. And that in turn, when our identity is truly determined by who God is, who he says we are, that determines what we do.

And so, for example, one of my favorite passages that I haven't mentioned is Psalm 1:2-3. And I love to dwell there. My husband is a gardener, and so I love garden illustrations. Can I briefly tell you Psalm 1:2-3?

Jennifer Rothschild: Please.

Stephanie Rousselle: It says, "Blessed is the one whose delight is in the law of the Lord." And that person -- and I'm paraphrasing because I'm not looking at it, I'm just trying to remember it. "That person is like a tree planted by streams of water. He yields fruit in season. His leaf never withers, and whatever they do prospers."

And so if you look at that and you're like, okay, who is God in this passage? God is the water source. He's the life-giving river. That's who he is. And what he does is that he gives us life and he draws near to us by being this river, the streams of water. And then what we do is that we bear fruit in season because that's who we are. We are a blessed tree planted by the stream of the presence of God.

So that's a very simple way to say, okay, what does Scripture tell me about who I am? And when I shape my identity based on what God says, not the other way around, then I am blessed because I am the person whose identity and whose fruit is rooted in who God is and what he does and what he says about me. And so then it becomes a quest of what does God say about us? What does he say about his delight in us?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's beautiful. And how could you not delight in the One who gives you all things and is all things and, therefore, just gives us that ability to bear the fruit. And everything we do prospers. And I love that because that is an emotional prosperity, a spiritual prosperity. Whether it ever shows up in physicality or materialism, that is not the point. There is this beautiful growth based on the life source.

Okay. So I want this. We want this. We all want to delight. All right? But what we do not want, and what some of us have a tendency to do, is to put delight on our spiritual to-do list. Okay, now I've got a new obligation. Okay, I've got to have my quiet time. I got to delight in the Lord. I've got to pray. We don't want that.

So let's talk, Stephanie -- I know you deal with some ancient and some creative habits that help us cultivate delight rather than obligation toward the Lord. So give us some of the -- just a couple of examples of some ancient or creative practices that we can begin to employ to help us grow and delight.

Stephanie Rousselle: Right. Thank you for that.

So I think everything is rooted in what we just said -- right? -- about this matrix of who God is. Because we first begin always by asking him to change the shape of our hearts so that it conforms to his desire for us to delight in him, right? He's the one who gives us that desire. So it always starts by asking him, coming to him to plant that divine delight, to continue the garden illustration. He's the one who plants that delight in us.

And then I think it goes to spending time with Jesus. Because the more we spend time with Jesus, we get to know him more and then we make him known more. So anything that helps us asking God to plant that delight in us, and anything that helps us spend time with Jesus to know him more. And then once that's the framework, then we awaken, we cultivate that delight through classic spiritual disciplines.

Now, the word "discipline," I realize how difficult it is sometimes to hear, because for some people it sounds like punishment and obligation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Rousselle: But actually, I think you of all people know so well how much discipline actually leads to true freedom.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Stephanie Rousselle: Because when a skill becomes second nature through practice, that's when we become truly free to use the skill not as a chore, but as a talent, and even more as a gift to others.

You know, if it really takes 10,000 hours to master a skill, then we need to practice. When it becomes effortless, when it becomes even a blessing for the people we serve through it -- think of a pianist or a painter who has spent countless hours practicing their skill so that we can enjoy the music and the beauty that has been created.

Or a chef, a baking chef. I love to bake, so obviously -- so anything that any -- I think it's not so much -- of course, we need to pray, we need to read Scripture, we need to worship, we need to do all manner of disciplines. But I think what we need to regain is the framework around them. And in that sense, I want to suggest that delight can be the framework that makes these classic disciplines enjoyable again.

Because all of a sudden we realize that these disciplines of reading Scripture, of praying, of worshiping, of silence and solitude, of hospitality, of journaling -- and I list many of them in the book as creative practices, some of the major ones and some minor ones as suggestions -- we realize that they become a pathway to meet God. And the goal isn't the discipline itself. The discipline is a means to an end.

God tells us that he hangs out in certain spots. You like C.S. Lewis. So if you had been in Oxford and had wanted to meet C.S. Lewis when he was there, you would probably have gone to the Eagle and Child --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Stephanie Rousselle: -- or to the Magdalene College, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Stephanie Rousselle: Like, you would have gone to the places where he hung out because you had a greater chance of meeting him there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Stephanie Rousselle: And God tells us the places he hangs out. Of course, God is everywhere all the time, I get that. But at the same time, he also tells us he is a stream -- you know, a stream of water, so his Word is the water that feeds us. He tells us that he inhabits the praises of his people, so he's present in prayer in a particular way, and he's present in the church in the gathered body of believers. So there's places and times where God says, If you want to meet with me, I'm gonna be there. Come and join me.

And once we begin to experience the spiritual disciplines in that way, with the delight of approaching God and knowing he's waiting for us, all of a sudden those disciplines become an invitation to taste and see his goodness, right? To try the chocolate, to put on our shoes and start walking these paths with this expectation to meet him there and to taste his goodness. We're sitting at the banquet, at the feast that he has set for us, and we expect to taste him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, Stephanie, this is so good. I mean, just that phrase that you said, that delight becomes the new framework within which we enjoy and approach all these things. Okay, I love that so much because it does change it. It's not something that we are doing for God, it's something that we just meet him there and he does for us. I just love it.

And this whole feeling of where God hangs out, I mean -- because there's meet-ups. People go to meet up because they care about the person who's there and they know they're going to get something from it. That's why we meet up with people, let's be honest. But in that getting something, we're also giving something and receiving at the same time.

So, like, this is a virtuous cycle that is beautiful, and I am so glad you've written this book. And we're going to have a link to it, obviously, on the Show Notes, because I want people to be able to go through not just the theory of this and the beauty of it -- because your writing style is whimsical and beautiful too -- but because you've got such practical tools and we want to awaken delight.

But we're going to get to our last question. This is a fun one. Okay.

Because you said, Stephanie, that when we experience this delight in the Lord through perhaps these disciplines of just hanging out with him, we then develop these skills that become a gift to others. Okay. Well, Sister, I told the audience as we started this thing, our friends, that you had a gift for them. So let's talk about your gifts.

So you've got gifts for anyone reading the book "Awaken Delight" and that are listening to this podcast today. So do tell. What is the gift?

Stephanie Rousselle: I love you. You're so funny. I love that you love gifts, because that is such a Christlike thing. I mean, Jesus loves to give and to receive gifts, and so it's really, really fun.

So anyone who's reading the book, when you purchase the book there's a QR code at the end that leads you to, among other many things, a private podcast series where I take you into some of the verses we've discussed, you and me. Psalm 37:4, Psalm 34:8, Philippians 3:10, and many more.

And we dissect them a little bit. We taste them, we see what happens when we experience the goodness of God through them. And that's only if you have the QR code that's in the book. And I give you, like, a 3D video of a garden immersion, because we use the garden based in Psalm 1. So all things like that. A lot of recipes. There's a book club invite.

But there's also something specifically for your audience, Jennifer, because I want the 4:13ers to live a bit more of the "I Can" life by delighting in God.

I think actually -- we haven't talked about that, but we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us because we root our delight in him and because we know how much he delights in us. And so I want to encourage that, because that is such a truly life-changing message to know what we can do in Christ. And so there's a giveaway.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

Stephanie Rousselle: Anyone who signs up -- everyone wins because we're all conquerors in Christ. So everyone who signs up gets five Liturgies to Awaken Delight. So I've written these short liturgies that invite you to awaken and cultivate delight and become more aware of the presence of God around you throughout your day. So that's for everyone, and we're sending that to everyone who wants it.

And then we're also having one winner. We are going to draw a winner from among the entries of just your audience, and they're gonna win a gift bundle valued at over $150.

And that includes several pieces of jewelry made by survivors of human trafficking, because this is a cause that my ministry supports heavily, a prayer journal to help you cultivate one of the spiritual disciplines, and some other things like that. So all you need to do is go to gospelspice.com/413, for 413, and enter for a chance to win. It's for everybody.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love it. All right, 4:13ers, hang out to the end of the podcast and then you go to gospelspice.com/413.

All right. Stephanie, love you, and you have awakened delight in this conversation.

Stephanie Rousselle: Thank you, Jennifer. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May his face shine upon you and give you his peace as you delight in him.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, friends, you heard Stephanie. For the 4:13ers, which is you, if you sign up, everyone is going to win, because you're going to get these five liturgies that she's written that will help awaken delight. And then you heard her say that she's going to draw one winner for the big gift bundle, which sounded smashing. So right there, my friends, is delight.

And don't forget, we are getting very close to Episode 413 (whispering) next week. Okay? I don't want you to miss it. There is a special guest.

KC Wright: Go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/412 or the Show Notes at the platform where you're listening right now. That will connect you to all things Stephanie. And there is also a link to the survey Jennifer mentioned. We really do want to hear from you, so fill out that survey so the podcast refresh will be just what you want and need.

Again, I will have you a clue about next week's special guest.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, what's the clue?

KC Wright: Okay, here's a clue.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: He's a man.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, he's a man.

KC Wright: He is hilarious.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

KC Wright: His name is in the Bible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: And I've got more, but you know what, we're gonna end right there. Those are your clues.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those are good clues.

KC Wright: So until next week, our 413th episode -- man, that's a big deal --

Jennifer Rothschild: (Whispering) It's a big deal.

KC Wright: -- you can awaken delight because -- you know why? -- you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, his name is in the Bible.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Haggai? No, no.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right.