4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Annie F. Downs and Laura Story at Fresh Grounded Faith Plant City, FL [Episode 298]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name. So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on The 4:13.

Are you an introvert or an extrovert? What do you do to unwind? Or here's another question. What's your favorite smell or your favorite sound? Well, these are just a few of the questions that we were asked, and these are the questions that we answered as we sat around the Bistro table in Plant City, Florida, at a Fresh Grounded Faith. Author and podcaster Annie F. Downs and singer-songwriter and author Laura Story, they sat with me and they gave so much insight and inspiration when we spilled the beans. And that is exactly what you are about to get today too. In fact, we are going to cover the importance of hanging out with a small group, how I preserve memories when I can't see pictures, and there was even some good advice for the single ladies. And then right in the middle of this -- I got to give you one heads-up -- Annie surprised Laura with some first-class plane tickets. So you have got to hang out and hear what happened. So let's get ready to spill some beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome my soul sister, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. We're glad you're here. It's just me and K.C. here in the podcast closet. Two friends, one topic, and zero stress. But you know what? That is a lie today. I have not got zero stress. In fact, K.C., what do I have in my hand?

K.C. Wright: Jennifer is literally -- we tell the truth. We speak -- we speak the truth. She is squeezing her stress ball.

Jennifer Rothschild: I am squeezing my stress ball. Because I am stressed out because my computer is acting up. Now, I know nobody loves it when their computer acts up, but can I just say this? My computers are very challenging because they have to have talking software. They do not play nice with everything. So my main computer, who I call Baby Dell -- I'm about to unadopt him -- he has been giving me trouble, so I got a new one knowing his time was coming. Well, his time may have came this morning.

K.C. Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: He gave me the silent treatment. He has not said one word to me, which makes it impossible for me to do these podcasts. So I pulled out the new one --

K.C. Wright: And it's nice.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

K.C. Wright: It's light as a feather.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's beautiful. But unfortunately, I don't have it set up totally for my needs. So we are, like, pushing through here, people. So when I was at Walgreens getting some Advil, the cashier handed me this. It's a stress ball shaped like a pill. So I've been squeezing it. Anyway...

But I started complaining, and K.C. was like, "Well, I can complain," because he's had a stressful morning. So go ahead, share with our people.

K.C. Wright: Well, have you ever had a morning where you get the weirdest, strangest text? That was my morning.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ugh.

K.C. Wright: I mean, I wake up, it's just a beautiful morning. I am so looking forward to being with Jenn and you here on The 4:13, and my phone just starts dinging, dinging, dinging, dinging. It's just interesting. It was some church members asking me really interesting, strange Bible questions that you can Google this. And then also my neighbor's on there going, "Your dog pooped in my yard."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

K.C. Wright: And I responded going, "No, my dog doesn't do that on the side of the house, he does that behind my house." And she goes, "Well, I'm not trying to split hairs, but I'm telling you, it's your dog."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness. Good morning.

K.C. Wright: And then just some other things, just some weird stuff. And I'm like, "What in the world?" But here's the point. All this is before, like, 8:30.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and didn't you get a text from your church members asking you about --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- like, some weird theological concepts?

K.C. Wright: Yeah, about the Tower of Babel. I don't even know who I am in the morning. I can't even -- I don't know who I am without that cup of java. Don't be asking me about the Tower of Babel.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so funny.

K.C. Wright: I can't even babble.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

By the way, I heard something funny. So Phil and I have this ongoing thing. Like, he'll say something and I'll say, "What?" And he's like, "I don't think you can hear." I said, "No, I don't think you're speaking clearly." Anyway, I read something the other day. It's like, "I'm not slurring, I'm just speaking in cursive." And I thought --that's what he sounds like. But I thought that's what I sound like before coffee. That's probably what you sound like before coffee. So, yeah, we can't deal with dog poop and the Tower of Babel before coffee.

K.C. Wright: Thank you. And before 9:00 o'clock.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

K.C. Wright: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. We're going to spill some beans -- some more beans. We've already spilled some. But let me give you a few kind of heads-up before you hear this conversation. Because you are going to love it. Okay. So one of the things that happened is during the weekend, Annie told a story about getting free first-class seats. I told a story about getting a free first-class seat. Neither of us knew we were going to tell the story. And then Laura gets up and she's like, "Well, that's nice. I never got a first-class seat. Nobody ever gave me one." Okay? So you need to know that going into it. When you hear what Annie does, you'll understand why it's significant.

Okay. The other thing is -- that I wanted you to be aware of when you hear this, Annie had referred to a woman named Nancy. She calls her her Nancy. Okay? And this is just her mentor. So if you hear Laura talk about Nancy, that's what they're talking about. It's Annie's mentor. Okay?

And then, last thing, when we begin this conversation, Laura had just sung a song, which I absolutely love, called "Give You Faith." If you've never heard it, you have got to hear it when this podcast is done. Okay? And we'll have a link to it, of course. But that's what I'm commenting on when this conversation begins, just so you know. All right? Here we go.

Wow, Laura, that's just so beautiful.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, that was beautiful, Laura.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what? I was thinking even -- you know, from a motherhood perspective, those lyrics are so powerful. But, you know, from a mentoring and just being sisters in Christ --

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- those lyrics fit. Let me get out my Spill the Bean cards. Hold on.

Annie F. Downs: In your boots?

Jennifer Rothschild: They're in my boot.

Annie F. Downs: Ma'am, you're extraordinary.

Jennifer Rothschild: Annie, why don't you read.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, Jenn, here's the question. How do you preserve baby memories when pictures don't work for blind moms?

Jennifer Rothschild: I thought that was such an interesting question.

Annie F. Downs: That's such a nice question, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what I like about the question, too, is I think this applies to anybody, any mom. So I take audio pictures. You can ask my family. I take audio pictures all the time. And so, like, if you do follow my 4:13 Podcast, you know I just posted some Italy audio pictures. And I got to go to Italy, so everywhere I went, I took audio pictures of where I was. And I do the same with my grandchildren. Now, when I had little children, I didn't have that, but we had a little cassette tape, Fisher Price, so I have recordings of talking with the little boys.

But sometimes just turning it on for a minute and recording yourself playing with the baby or -- it's amazing what those audio pictures bring back. So, yeah, I would suggest audio pictures, not just 'cause you might need them because you're blind, but because it will open up a part of your brain and memory when you listen to them later.

Annie F. Downs: That's beautiful. That's really helpful.

Laura, can you speak to the strengths you've seen in introverts and extroverts in serving the Lord? I am -- shocker -- extrovert.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I'm -- yeah, big shock.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Everyone's --

Laura Story: Really?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Laura Story: That's --

Annie F. Downs: I know, surprising. Surprising.

Jennifer Rothschild: What are you, Laura?

Laura Story: That's a good question. I'm -- okay. So have you ever heard of an ambivert? Or maybe someone made this up and told me that's what I was.

Annie F. Downs: No, no, no. I like it. Keep going.

Laura Story: It's in the middle between an introvert and extrovert.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Laura Story: So I -- definitely people skills and I love being around people, but I also -- I need some alone time to recharge.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Because this friend's asking -- her question is because it feels harder for her to be around people all the time, but she feels called to ministry.

Laura Story: Oh, absolutely. And I think that that might be a ministry myth --

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Say that.

Laura Story: -- that extroverts are the main people that God uses in public spaces like this.

I think sharing your story, it's not an introvert or extrovert thing. There are certain -- I think the introvert-extrovert thing -- and, Annie, you probably have done a little more even study on this than I have. But this idea, an extrovert, I think, is more fueled by it and an introvert is more like -- I don't know. I'm trying to figure out introvert or extrovert. When you go to a party, are you -- like, after you talk to everyone there, are you just completely jazzed or are you completely exhausted? If you're completely exhausted, like I am, you're probably more of an introvert. But it doesn't mean that you like people any less and it doesn't mean that God's called you to share your story any less.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Annie F. Downs: How do you feel, Jennifer, at the end of a party? Or, like, after today?

Jennifer Rothschild: Exhausted. I love people, but I am drained quickly. Part of it is because I'm fully present. If I'm with you, I am 100% with you.

Annie F. Downs: You are, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So if there's 30 of you around me, I am absorbing 30 people's stuff.

Annie F. Downs: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I get very drained. I love alone time. You can ask my husband. He goes to movies by himself, he does -- because I love alone time. I love quiet. But in ministry -- I'm glad you said that about the myth, because I am a learned extrovert. Because it's not about us, you know. So if we can just -- whatever the Lord's called us to do in serving, he will supply that grace, and I can manage being around a lot of people because I love people. You just have to balance it.

Annie F. Downs: And extroverts have to have a learned introvertness in ministry. You don't have to be the loudest voice and you don't have to be the center of attention. So I like that you're saying that, Jennifer, because it feels like -- if you're called to follow Jesus, that includes your personality.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

Annie F. Downs: And we don't want to be different than he made us, but there are times we can submit our greatest strength to the room. And sometimes that means calling you up to be extroverted if we need you to be, and sometimes it means, "Annie, shush."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Annie F. Downs: That's what it means.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Annie F. Downs: That's what it means sometimes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good.

Annie F. Downs: Okay. This is for either of y'all. Is it difficult to find a small group or a Bible study group because of being known publicly?

Jennifer Rothschild: That is for you too, Annie. And especially -- y'all too are both on your church staff.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so we've got some church leaders in this room today. What is it like for you all being, you know, in your public role?

Annie F. Downs: So I'm big on the teaching team. You know, one of the benefits I have in Nashville is a lot of people have public lives.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, true.

Annie F. Downs: And so my people -- there's about seven of us -- and half of us live in Nashville, and the other half don't -- and we're on Marco Polo all the time. But because we share public life as part of our ministry, that's something we can process together too. So that has been a gift to me, is finding some people in my place like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: What about you, Laura?

Laura Story: So I've been at my church for 18 years, and they're just my people.

Annie F. Downs: They do not care, huh?

Laura Story: Well, I try to tell them, like, that I am a big deal --

Annie F. Downs: I've been trying to tell them for two decades.

Laura Story: -- but it just doesn't -- they don't seem to get it, so I really haven't had that struggle.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that so much. That's how I feel about my church, though. Like, they're just my people, and I'm their people. I feel safe with them and comfortable and, like, not any big deal at all, and I love that. But then I also have, like, my two or three. Because I am introverted. I do better with my small little people. So I have certain friends that we just do life together. And it's interesting, sometimes real spiritual growth can occur also outside a formal Bible study, just in a Christian community where women are honest with each other and encourage each other with the Word.

Laura Story: Yeah. And I have two friends, and I've -- I literally have two friends.

Annie F. Downs: I have two friends, and they're at this table.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Laura Story: They're right here. I have two friends that are like my Nancy's, I guess. Is it Nancy?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laura Story: And just tell them everything. And that is something that I did figure out from having a little bit of a public life, is I can't tell everyone everything. And really shouldn't anyway. But it's really sweet. I think I used to in my younger -- my younger, like, on-stage self, the evil one would try to trick me into believing you can't -- it's exactly what you were saying, you can't tell anyone really how you're doing. And I'm so thankful that the Lord has brought me out of that. And that wasn't, like, a long season, but it is kind of complicated. Sometimes you can't figure out who wants to be your friend because they have you on an unfair pedestal?

Annie F. Downs: Yes. They figure it out pretty quick, though, don't they?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Laura Story: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Okay. This one's for me. Advice for single women. Let's go, single ladies. Advice for single women looking for a husband, feeling discouraged, getting older, and everyone around her is getting married and having kids. We can talk about that. But I want to read the next sentence because I think everyone can feel this. "It feels like everyone is moving on in life and I'm stuck in the same place." That is not unique to being single. That is human. The feeling of that I can relate to. I'm 43. If you'd have told me at 23 I wouldn't be married at 43, I'd have slapped you.

But it can feel discouraging -- right? -- to be praying for something and longing for something and watching other people get it. And I have had that experience of other people are getting married; wait, other people are having babies; wait, they have elementary school kids; wait, their kids are graduating high school, and it can feel like you are being left behind. But the truth of God's story is that you aren't in her lane, you're in your lane, and so we just keep going in our lane. No one else has married your husband that you're going to marry at the right time. Like, it's not like you're like, "Oh, no. Well, that's the last one." Right? That's not the story. This isn't Chick-fil-A at 10:35. You didn't miss it. And so you aren't going to miss the thing God has for you. If you are pursuing God, you have not missed what he has for you. You just have to be a little disciplined. I'm not telling you not to feel your feelings. If we're friends, you know I'm going to tell you to feel your feelings about this and tell someone.

But we just have to -- in all of our lives, whether it is the mom who wishes she had more kids or -- I mean, let's put my mom in this story, Jennifer and Laura. I mean, my mom didn't think I wouldn't have grandkids for her. So my mom has to sit in the seat with her peers. And her peers have a lot of grandchildren. My mom has one. And my sister had a baby last summer that died. So my mom has one grandson and one grandson who's died. That isn't the story my mom thought she'd have either.

So it's a really interesting thing to -- it isn't just you who doesn't have your story. All of us don't have the story we thought we'd have. And so we have to be a little disciplined and put our blinders on and go, "Okay, God, so what is my lane?" And I can be disappointed that you haven't answered my prayers and I can be disappointed you haven't given me the thing I thought you'd give me and I can be disappointed about this, that, and the other, but my blinders are on my lane, and I'm not going to worry about her in her lane as best I can on a -- you know, Thursdays may be worse than Tuesdays, I don't know. But it is hard.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word. It does apply to all of us in all things.

Laura Story: Yeah. I have friends that they say -- my single friends say that their least favorite thing is when someone says, "Oh, well, God just wants you to work on you."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, serious?

Laura Story: As if, like, marriage was, like, our reward for --

Annie F. Downs: Right.

Laura Story: -- oh, I finally got it all together --

Annie F. Downs: Right.

Laura Story: -- so I'm going to get married. Anyway, so I just want to apologize on behalf of all married people for the dumb things that we say to single people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Seriously.

Annie F. Downs: Well, listen, don't you know I've watched people get married and be like, I am healthier than her in my mind. I know -- I know my mental health is not -- okay, how'd she get that? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we all can do it. We all can see someone else's life and go, I deserve what they got. And then the Lord just is very kind to me and says, No. I have your story, and your story really matters, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, this is for all of us, it says. This is a great one. What are your favorite sounds, smells, and things to touch?

Jennifer Rothschild: What a fun question.

Annie F. Downs: I agree.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love the smell of a used bookstore.

Annie F. Downs: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love the smell of my Uncle Fred's tobacco in his pipe. I love the smell of leather. This is easy for me.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, you're doing great.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I love the smell of espresso. I love the smell of coffee, but I really love the smell of espresso. Okay, there you go.

Annie F. Downs: Good.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what else I love the sound of?

Laura Story: What?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: A dryer spinning. It's very comforting.

Annie F. Downs: We're learning so much about you, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it says there is hope for warm, nice-smelling laundry in just a few minutes.

Annie F. Downs: Wow. Just give her a pipe and a dryer, she is a satisfied woman. That's all she needs.

Laura Story: That's amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: What about you?

Laura Story: Lysol.

Jennifer Rothschild: You like the smell of Lysol?

Laura Story: In silence.

Annie F. Downs: This question, meant to be so fun, is eye-opening.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's therapy.

Annie F. Downs: Lysol in silence. That's going to be your next book title, Laura.

Laura Story: It just speaks to my stage of life.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, certainly.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think so.

Annie F. Downs: Back to our single friend who wrote a question. You know what you and I aren't caring about? Lysol in silence. So good on us.

Jennifer Rothschild: What's yours?

Annie F. Downs: You know, Jennifer, I don't know if I've ever told you this, my grandparents owned a used bookstore, and I worked every Saturday with them at it. And so you're right, that smell. There's just something about books that does not go away.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Annie F. Downs: I also love the smell of -- this is silly -- it won't shock you -- of an ice cream store.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I do too.

Annie F. Downs: I like everything about an ice cream store. I like the cone smell, I like the ice cream. I like how cold it is when you open the door.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: Just -- I'll see you there. I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's -- that would be a great audio picture, you and me in an ice cream store.

Annie F. Downs: It's going to happen.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's going to happen.

Annie F. Downs: Maybe in Spring -- sorry, Plant City. Maybe in Springfield.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Laura Story: I feel like my answer was kind of pathetic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, give us something else.

Annie F. Downs: Listen. Don't judge what you love.

Laura Story: I also like being at a restaurant where I can smell the good food and where no one -- I'm not standing to order and no one's asking me, "Would you like fries with that?"

Annie F. Downs: Well, I was with you till the very end.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you like to be seated, you like to hear the cutlery hitting the plate, cloth napkins.

Laura Story: I just like doing something that reminds me I am --

Annie F. Downs: Laura's like, You guys, I'm cool. I like people. It's not just about puking. It's not just about cleaning up.

Laura Story: I just like being reminded that I am an adult.

Annie F. Downs: You are. You are.

Laura Story: That I can go do grownup things.

Annie F. Downs: I would love to hear y'all's -- I'm excited to hear y'all -- this is -- part of the rhythm of what we do for our jobs, this is true for you. When you get home from your job, you do something to unwind. And so one of our friends is asking us after we do this, who do you listen to? What do you do to fill your cup back up? Podcast, books, preachers, speakers?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Well, my answer may be surprising. Because I'm always in the Word studying, and because I tend to analyze, it's hard for me not to analyze when I hear teaching. I do not listen to podcasting or teaching to unwind. I listen to a fiction book. And I call them my fiction vacation. Shaun and I were talking about this morning. Like, even when I got to the room last night, I have learned to discipline myself not to rewind and analyze the evening, just to trust the Lord with our offering, and I literally turned on a book and I listened to it while I was getting ready for bed, just to totally clear my mind and go somewhere different. And It does help me to just kind of regroup, you know? I like testosterone fiction, mystery thrillers.

Annie F. Downs: Do you? Do you get spooked?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. No, because I like -- I just like -- I like it when the hero wins. And, like, he is going to pull out his gun and get that bad guy right now.

Laura Story: You don't get scared, like, in your room?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Because I sleep with Granddaddy's fishing knife. So if anybody ever --

Annie F. Downs: Dr. Phil, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's right by my bed.

Laura Story: Are you being serious?

Jennifer Rothschild: I am. Because I've learned from my people in my mystery thrillers how to take somebody out if I had to. Don't mess with me. Don't mess with me.

Laura Story: Dr. Phil, I have a whole new appreciation. You sleep with a blind woman with a knife.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Legit.

Laura Story: That's amazing.

Annie F. Downs: Legit. He said, "I do not surprise her."

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Annie F. Downs: You sleep with a blind woman with a knife. I hope someone's right -- I hope you're still taking notes in your listening guide, because that is exactly...

Jennifer Rothschild: So what do y'all do to unwind?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, how do you unwind, Laura?

Laura Story: I don't remember the -- I don't remember the last time I did. Go ahead.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, I don't remember the last time I did.

I watch sports. That's kind of my go-to.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's your thing.

Annie F. Downs: I really like -- like, I really enjoy cheering for something that has -- no offense -- no eternal value. Like, I like that we can kind of like -- I show up this enthusiastic about just about everything. And so I have to adjust my enthusiasm off of what's God doing, da, da, da, or I'm the worst person to be with for the next three hours.

In fact, the extrovert/introvert thing, the phrase I use is that after I'm at something like this, I'm people drunk. Because I'm just, like, so happy to see you. And aren't we all together and don't we want to stay up and talk and -- I mean, I just am like (makes machine gun sound). And so I have to do something like shift my energy to sports or to a book. I tend -- I'm with you, I tend to not listen to spiritual -- that's why I said I would tell Nancy tomorrow, and then the Holy spirit was like, "What if you told Nancy today?" and I was like, "Fine." But part of it is that I turn my energy off of the deep things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Me too.

Annie F. Downs: You know, most animals need to do deep water and shallow water --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

Annie F. Downs: -- and we do too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

Annie F. Downs: And so even when you're grieving, it's one -- I mean, when my nephew died last year, one of the things that my counselor really walked me through is the opportunity to be deep in grief and to come up for air. Because I kept feeling this pressure that I wasn't allowed to come up for air, but I needed it. Like, I needed to ride a roller coaster, and no one -- and I felt like I wasn't allowed to say that because I was just only allowed to be sad full stop all the time. And my body couldn't do it.

And so I'm the same way after events like this or after Sunday mornings when I teach. I have a little bit of time where the energy is still really high and I have to shift it or I get weird.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's so helpful. And then -- so I think of Laura. Like, I have an empty nest. You're single.

Annie F. Downs: I'm pre-nest.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, Laura, you come home to four little people who need you and are so glad you're home.

Laura Story: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So do you even get a chance to --

Laura Story: Yeah. And it's tough. Because as a traveling working mom, when I get home, I desperately want to spend time with my children, and I have no energy left to spend time with my children. And so I'm having to learn what that looks like. So it's like, hugs, hugs, hugs. "Hey, let's go watch that movie." (makes snoring sound) And they'll be in my arms and I'm fast asleep. Right before that, I ordered Domino's pizza to be delivered, you know. And so figuring out what does it look like to do the lowest energy version of -- you guys are probably thinking I'm a terrible parent at this point.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I think it's bright.

Annie F. Downs: No, we're not. No, we're not. We all get it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think it's very bright. I don't know -- I remember what it was like to do this with just two little kids. So with four. And, you know, you're also helping even more than a lot of wives -- just like Phil has to -- and, yeah, I can imagine that you have to find creative ways to restore your soul.

Laura Story: Yeah. Thank you.

Annie F. Downs: Here's the thing, Laura. By the way, I'm only doing this in front of everyone because I think it's the only way you will respond.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Annie F. Downs: Laura and I are on the same flight --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: -- and you are in --

Laura Story: No. No. I do not believe -- hold on. I got to get ready for this. Okay, I'm ready.

Annie F. Downs: Laura, I just asked my manager, Jamie, if -- because we did get an upgrade today -- if you would let us trade seats with you and your son.

Laura Story: I do not believe you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you will.

Annie F. Downs: Y'all know I'm only paying it forward. This is not about me. I just knew she wouldn't do it at the airport, so I had to have some accountability.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: The accountability is you're in 4C and 4D --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: -- and we'll be wherever y'all were. So we're just going to switch-a-roo. It's so easy. Saturdays you get -- here's the trick. You always get an upgrade on Saturdays because all the traveling dads are home.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's amazing.

Annie F. Downs: Yesterday we were in the last row of the plane because all the dads were going back home from wherever they were working on Thursday and Friday. So, tradesies.

Laura Story: Are you serious?

Annie F. Downs: We're on the same flight. The Lord handled it.

Laura Story: That's so sweet.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that so much.

Annie F. Downs: You can't argue with us because, like, a thousand people know how you're getting home today.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Annie F. Downs: Your son's going to love it. He should ask for ice cream or something.

Okay, here's another question. "I find it comes natural and easy to show grace to others, but I hold myself to an unattainable standard." At least she knows.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: "How do you practice grace with yourself in a situation where you feel like a failure?" And I want to tell you one more thing. Our friend writing this is in her 20s.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, sweet baby. Oh, I was you. I was you in my 20s. And you know what? Let me just say that that response is usually the dark side of a very good virtue.

Annie F. Downs: That's right.

Laura Story: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so give yourself a little bit of a break.

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's just saying you have a high expectation for yourself. You want to do the right thing. You want to serve well, you want to show up 100%. That's awesome. And often when we are that way, the dark side and the place the enemy comes in and exploits is them, "Well, it's not good enough." "Well, you shouldn't have said that."

Annie F. Downs: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we are unkind to ourselves. I was.

One of the things that helped me is learning to think how I would speak to someone else. I give so much grace to other people. And so I had to start doing that. And I would literally call myself by my name. Okay? Studies have shown that talking to yourself is a very good guardrail in your life that helps inform your thoughts. But what studies have shown is if you use first person, it's more effective. So instead of me saying, "Jennifer, you tried your best, you need to show yourself grace" -- okay? So I'm saying "you." Instead, it would be, "Jennifer, I tried my best and I will show myself grace." There's something about this demand that it has on your brain when you say it like that, "I am going to do this and I believe this about me." So literally use words towards yourself in the way you would use them toward other people. Okay? That's one thing.

Now, I will say this. I still have the tendency to be hard on myself when I'm very tired or very stressed, and then I become my failure. And so I have to look at it and say, "I'm not my enemy's stresses, I am not a failure, that's just what I struggled with." And so it's again aligning your thoughts with the truth and continually telling yourself that. But I guess what I'm saying is it's not one and done in a formula.

Annie F. Downs: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not. So show yourself grace to know you might blow it over and over until you die, and you can keep telling yourself the truth along the way.

What about y'all? Is this an issue for you?

Laura Story: Yes. Oh, absolutely. I think one of the things just to remember is our basis for forgiveness is the cross, whether that's forgiving others or forgiving ourselves. Oftentimes we -- in my mind -- even though I would say, oh, yes, all paid for at the cross, totally believe it, but the way I live is, like, grace equals the cross plus my improved behavior.

Annie F. Downs: Right.

Laura Story: Or the cross plus my self-condemnation. Or the cross plus maybe a period of time that I need to feel bad or distant from God rather than believing that the sacrifice of God the Father, sending his Son to the cross, is sufficient. Truly -- and it's not like by your 87th time that you've sinned he's like, "Whoa, that one caught me off guard."

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Laura Story: I had paid for the 86th, but now you're really pushing it, you know. To have in mind that God foresaw everything that we would ever do, every thought we'd ever have. And it was excruciating, yet in some way delightful for him to allow his Son --

Annie F. Downs: That's beautiful.

Laura Story: -- to suffer so that we might feel grace.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, Laura, preach. That's so good.

Annie F. Downs: The simple thing I would say to a friend in my 20s who was talking about this is -- I remember being in my 20s, and at that point in my life it was -- the line between my good days and my bad days was really clear, and so it was hard to show myself grace because I would keep making this same mistake. And the older I've gotten, I've made so many more mistakes that if you don't show grace to yourself, you can't do this thing --

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Correct.

Annie F. Downs: -- you know? And so part of it, I'd say to my friend in her 20s, is like just hold on for the ride because you're going to keep messing up and you're going to have to. Like, you're just going to have to. You're going to do something that hurts people in such a way that you go, I could either stay in my house and never see them ever again or I have to believe that the cross was enough.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: And so don't give up on giving yourself grace, but also know that time will help.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

Laura Story: Yes.

Annie F. Downs: Time will help.

Jennifer Rothschild: I learn so much from these women, because they are just so bright and so deep and so wise and so fun.

K.C. Wright: I think you just described a Fresh Grounded Faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: It's all those things and so much more. And this was definitely one of the best Spill the Beans I have heard. So clearly, you need to go deeper with Laura's story and Annie F. Downs. We will link to their books, music, and podcasts all on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/298.

By the way, when I was at the last Fresh Grounded Faith, I met the gal who types out the Show Notes, and I said, "You get over here" --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

K.C. Wright: -- and I gave her a big ol' hug.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's Jill. Isn't she wonderful?

K.C. Wright: Because that's a lot of work.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a lot.

K.C. Wright: And what a wonderful resource.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

K.C. Wright: Also, of course, right there on the Show Notes we're going to have a link to all of Jennifer's books as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Plus, as K.C. said, a transcript so you can read the whole thing, because it'll be just so good. And we will also have a calendar of where Fresh Grounded Faith is going to be so that hopefully you can come and join us at one.

Okay. Until next week, get with your people around the table and spill the beans. Life is going to be much better when you do. And you can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: For real, you really can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. We don't lie around here.

K.C. Wright: Go tackle the day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, take it on.

K.C. Wright: And in my personal opinion, tackle it before you turn on your phone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, right?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And after your coffee.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with My Crazy Friends at Fresh Grounded Faith Fort Worth, TX [Episode 267]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer Rothschild. You know, I love my audiobooks from Audible. That's how I'm able to read so many books in a year. If you've never tried it, you can get a 30-day free trial with no obligation. Plus you'll get a free audiobook of your choice that you can keep. So go to 413podcast.com/Audible to get started. And now the podcast.

What do you get when you put Annie F. Downs, Tammy Trent, Shaun Groves, and me at a bistro table in Fort Worth, Texas, together? Well, you get the craziest, most fun, deep, and inspiring conversation ever. Tammy spilled the beans about dating a younger guy. You're going to have to hear that. Shaun, he nerded out about a Hebrew understanding of a story in the New Testament, so the geeks need to hear that. Annie gave us a scoop on her favorite gospel and how to deal with loneliness. And we all weighed in on how to let go of hurts and disappointments. I'm telling you, this is one of the most fun, funniest, and life-giving Spill the Beans you will ever hear, so pull up a chair. We've saved a seat for you at the Bistro.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and Biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you truly can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, Jennifer here. It's my goal to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life. Me and K.C. are here in the closet. And this is going to be a great conversation, you're going to love it. But I have brought a treat.

K.C. Wright: Treat?

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, I wish I could share it with everybody. Okay. Well, and let me say this. I will share it with everybody. We'll have a link to it on the Show Notes. This is my latest obsession. And I just feel like if we're spilling the beans, we need to be spilling the beans.

K.C. Wright: I love it when you do things like this, because you have led me on to more products and candles and chocolates.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: I mean, I always love -- it's like -- Oprah used to have her favorite things?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: These are Jennifer's favorite things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Maybe someday I'll actually do a favorite things post.

Okay, so I just opened this. It's a box of cereal. I can smell it.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: It smells so yummy. Now, y'all know -- maybe you don't. You don't have to follow every obsessive detail of my life. But I am low carb. Okay? So I do everything low carb. Well, I found the best low carb cereal ever. I've tried them all.

K.C. Wright: Wow. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is my favorite. So, K.C., it's high protein, it's low carb, and it's high dollar, because they always are. I'm handing you the box, and I'm going to take a bite.

K.C. Wright: Oh, my goodness, it does smell.

Jennifer Rothschild: Doesn't it smell good. Isn't this one maple? What is this one, cinnamon or maple?

K.C. Wright: This is -- can I tell them?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. The brand is Magic Spoon.

K.C. Wright: Grain-free cereal, and it's called Maple Waffle. Maple Waffle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I'm just imagining right now --

K.C. Wright: Oh, my word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: No, for real. This is --

Jennifer Rothschild: It doesn't have a bad aftertaste.

K.C. Wright: This is like Christmas.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Okay. So how much protein is in it?

K.C. Wright: Okay. Twelve grams of protein per serving.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's health food, that's what I'm saying.

K.C. Wright: Four grams of net carbs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Which is low.

K.C. Wright: And zero sugar.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: The white devil has been killed at last.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. Now, this will cost you your savings account, but it's worth it.

Okay, one last bite, because y'all don't need to hear us chewing.

K.C. Wright: Oh, man, those are good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: I'm taking some home for later.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can. You can. I need a love offering to pay for it, though.

Okay, so I just had to share those with K.C., and I thought, well, why not share it with my whole 4:13 family.

K.C. Wright: Now, what kind of milk do you have with that?

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't do milk.

K.C. Wright: Oh, you don't?

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I just eat it like --

K.C. Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Because I don't do popcorn or --

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I use it as, like, my little snack.

K.C. Wright: I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: But Phil does almond milk with it.

K.C. Wright: Okay, yeah. Curious minds want to know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. All right.

K.C. Wright: Well, I'm a huge, huge fan of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, now you know, my people. It is so yummy, seriously, I will have a link to it so that you can find it on the Show Notes. But I wanted to make sure I spilled the beans about that.

And since I gave you a scoop of cereal, now I'm going to give you the scoop about what you're about to hear. Okay? So this conversation that we had was in the spring of this year. Okay? So it happened to be right after -- I hate to say this, but right after the shooting -- remember? -- at Covenant School in Nashville, which is where Annie F. Downs lives.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I just needed to remind you of that context, because she's going to refer to that, or inuendo it, and I didn't want you to not understand what she was talking about. So that was right across the street from her, and very tender to her heart, but, of course, tender to all of our hearts. So I wanted you to know that that's what she's referring to.

But also, somebody in the audience asked a Spill the Beans question at this event about our 4:13 episode that I did with Max McLean. He was the -- you remember, the producer and star of The Most Reluctant Convert, one of my C. S. Lewis -- yeah, I, like, fan girl over him. Okay. Some of you already heard it because we had that episode during -- when I was in Italy, right? I think it was 256. So if you haven't heard it, go back and listen to 256.

Okay. But the story behind that was that I forgot -- or the person helping me forgot to press record when I had the first 52-minute conversation with him. It was a big traumatic moment in my life. And, of course, anything traumatic for me, I, like, spread the love, so it was trauma for everyone. Anyway, so that question was asked, and so that's what I'm referring to when I talk about Max McLean. I didn't want you to be confused. But you remember those days. They were hard days on all of us because that's when I was in Italy and K.C. was all alone, all alone in the podcast closet. He didn't even have Magic Spoon cereal to keep him content.

K.C. Wright: Nothing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. We're going to have links to everything you need to know on the Show Notes later, but let's get our conversation started.

K.C. Wright: And when you hear this, you'll want to come immediately to a Fresh Grounded Faith event, because these podcasts from Fresh Grounded Faith conferences, what we call affectionately as Spill the Beans, they are my favorite podcasts really. I love re-listening to them, because you miss things and you have to go back and hear different -- I love the different conversations and everyone at the table.

So pack your bag and come now to Fargo, North Dakota. Fresh Grounded Faith will be there on October 27th through the 28th. You can find all the info you need at freshgroundedfaith.com. That's freshgroundedfaith.com. And you can find all this information, of course, on the Show Notes too. Or if you are closer, come to Springfield, Missouri.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: And breaking news, I will be at this one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he will.

K.C. Wright: I am going to be there.

Jennifer Rothschild: You got to come see K.C.

K.C. Wright: I will get to hug you in person and love on you and thank you personally from my heart to yours for listening to the podcast. All right? So it is November 3rd and 4th in Springfield, Missouri, and I'd love to meet you. And Annie F. Downs will be there as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's going to be good. And by the way -- I don't know if you knew this -- Karen Kingsbury will be there also. Yeah, it's going to be a great weekend.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: All right. Well, we just need to get to this. Annie F. Downs is the host of That Sounds Fun Podcast -- which I love that name -- plus an amazing author and speaker. Tammy Trent -- love her -- is a singer-songwriter, author, and now the co-host of The Life Today TV show. And, of course, Shaun Groves, he's a worship leader, storyteller, singer-songwriter. And you know our Jennifer. So let's do this. Let's Spill the Beans.

Shaun Groves: Let's talk about Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, okay.

Shaun Groves: So, Jennifer, you really do have an amazing memory.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Shaun Groves: It's so impressive to me. So this isn't on the card, but I'm wondering if your memory was always good. But what's on the card is where... I'm sorry, I got the question in the wrong order. But I'm going to skip to it. So what are, like, three tips for remembering things, memorizing?

Jennifer Rothschild: This won't be very organized. But when it comes to memorizing Scripture, I never start with the goal of memorization. I start with the goal of understanding. Because I always think in general with memorization, whether it's a verse, whether it's a message, whether it's anything, you have to have a global understanding before you can have granule recall. Okay? So that's super important, understanding first.

And then the repetition of hearing something, or if you can see it, reading it over and over, or combining the two. I've also understood that writing something with your hand helps enhance your memory. But for me, that means typing it. I will type things out.

But when it comes to memorizing, you memorize between the punctuations. That's a way to phrase things, just like you would memorize a song with phrasing. But, like, even this morning, it was 2 Corinthians 12:10. "For Christ's sake, I delight in weakness, insult, hardship, difficulty, and persecution." See, I do my fingers I'm doing that in my head when I'm talking to you. And I've spelled it out, WIHDP. So I know it's W-I-H-D-P. So I do little things like that. I'll create mnemonic devices within verses.

Shaun Groves: But then I have to memorize my mnemonic device.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? It's hard. But, yeah, I do things like that. So I try to just come up with little techniques.

I will also put things on what I call a ladder, so that on every rung of the ladder is like a main point I'm going to make. And even if you notice when I just said 2 Corinthians 12:10, literally in my mind I will write those verses on the rungs of my ladder in cursive. So I'm very visual. And you can tell when I'm going through something that I've memorized. Often when I'm getting to a transition to the next point, I literally will kind of look up as if I'm climbing the ladder in my head to see what's next.

But it takes discipline. Don't think that, oh, she just has a good memory. Y'all, we all have the capacity for a good memory. It just requires intention, focus, and discipline. But you can do that. God has equipped you with an amazing brain, and I don't like it that women often don't regard highly enough their capacity for memorization and for intellect, because you got it going on.

Shaun Groves: That's good. That's really good. I'm going to go make some ladders in my head next time I have to speak.

So this is for all three of you guys. How do you let go of hurts and disappointments when you've experienced those? How do you let go?

Jennifer Rothschild: How do you let go?

Shaun Groves: -- of the hurts and disappointments?

Annie F. Downs: I think time is a healer, but it's a very unreliable healer without God. And so for me, it is a constant going back and letting go over and over again, and my grip is just less tight every time. But time -- I think time helps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because emotion fades a little bit with time.

Annie F. Downs: Yes, yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Emotion fades, yeah.

Tammy Trent: I'm completely with you, and that's exactly what I said last night. For me, like, time doesn't heal. I think it helps, but I think only God can heal.

Annie F. Downs: Yes.

Tammy Trent: But even in my loss -- I'm 21 years into it -- I'm not stuck in any way. Thank God for that. But I still feel -- and I still have moments where I'm in the house that we built alone together, you know, walking up the stairs and just -- I'll see a picture on the wall and -- you know, or a memory or a card. I don't even want to start crying now. But -- it's the estrogen. It's the thyroid. Yeah, I'm going to pull it together. I have to make a joke to pull it together.

But I'll see something and I'm punched in the gut and I'm right back in that moment. And so I give myself permission -- I give myself permission to feel that, to visit that, but I don't camp there. I don't stay there very long. And even in that moment where I still feel the hurt or the sting or the pain, I still feel the grace of God too.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: So you can't have one without the other --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Tammy Trent: -- and survive it and to keep moving forward. If you just take the one, you're going to get stuck and you're not going to keep moving forward. So it's okay, I think, for me, even all these years later, to feel that, but I quickly turn to the hope that I have in Jesus and what I know to be reality, that pain is fleeting and it will not last. Joy comes in the morning, so it's not going to last forever. But what do I have? What do I have? We focus so much on what we don't have. But what do we have?

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word

Tammy Trent: What do I have?

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, yeah. That's really good.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, Tammy, too, as you say that, I'm thinking, like, what do I do in a very practical way too? You say you shift your perspective to what I have. One of the things that I have done -- because sometimes it's -- okay, it's hurts and disappointment with living people that you have to deal with every day. Right? I had an experience with a human being in the past where there was a -- it was just an ugly situation, and I felt hurt, disappointed, unjustly accused, you know, bad stuff, right? It was very hard to let go of that hurt because I wanted vindication. Okay. One of the things that I did, the Lord led me to -- John Eldredge has an app called Pause.

Annie F. Downs: Oh, I love it. Every day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Every day.

Annie F. Downs: I do it every day.

Jennifer Rothschild: So do I.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so here's the funniest thing. He starts everyone -- he has this very soothing voice, but he has -- it starts with, "Jesus, I give you everything and everyone." Right? Well, it's our little joke with me and my friend, Paula -- because her son overheard it, and he goes like, "Mom, is he saying 'cheese puffs'?" Yes, cheese puffs. I give you --

Annie F. Downs: I give you everyone and everything.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you cheese puffs. So it's my little joke now, whenever I feel the hurt and disappointment, I'm like, "Cheese puffs," and that's my cue to, like, "Okay, Jesus, I give you everyone and everything." And it does, because it releases you from the burden of having to manage the disappointment and the hurt.

Annie F. Downs: If you want to look up that app, it's called the One Minute Pause.

Jennifer Rothschild: One Minute Pause, yes.

Annie F. Downs: And inside of it, John Eldredge has read a bunch of one minute pauses, but then you also have three, five, and ten.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Annie F. Downs: It is so beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Annie F. Downs: I do too.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Shaun Groves: That's good. Annie?

Annie F. Downs: Yes, sir?

Shaun Groves: As you have been reading through the Gospels this year, what story or passage has stood out to you? Is -- I'm so blind.

Annie F. Downs: Your glasses are literally right there.

Shaun Groves: I know, I know. Is there one --

Annie F. Downs: The Lord's already answered your prayer.

Shaun Groves: -- that just blows your mind each time you read it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Annie F. Downs: You know what's interesting is the funniest one that I did not know is -- there's a part where Jesus tells the disciples, "Beware of the yeast of the Pharisees," and they think it's because they've forgotten to bring bread. And so they start whispering to each other, "Is this because we forgot the bread?" And Jesus is like, "No, it's not." So that one, every time we read it, we have to stop because we laugh every time.

Do you know, the first one that -- the only real miracle besides Holy Week that's in all four Gospels is feeding the 5,000. And so that is really interesting to me, that the only one that all four of them wanted to tell was that. And so asking -- doing the curious game of why, and what did they share in their retelling, and what's different in their retelling, why is that the one that they all wanted to tell?

Shaun Groves: Interesting about that passage -- 'cause I taught it recently -- is that there are two feedings. One's the 5,000, once the 4,000.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, the one's four.

Shaun Groves: In the feeding of the 5,000, they collect 12 baskets of leftovers, the number representing Israel. Jesus is the Bread of Life come first to Israel. But in the other feeding, there were seven baskets. There were seven nations in the land of Canaan. Seven is often the number of the Gentiles.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Shaun Groves: So it's this beautiful symbolism of God became bread to Israel first, but then also to the nations. And so just recently reading through the Gospels myself, it just hit me. I was like, why are there two, and how did I get this far in life not noticing that there are two?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's beautiful.

Shaun Groves: Why are they both there? Anyway, yeah, it's just amazing how this book can keep giving when you read it over and over and over again.

Annie F. Downs: That's it. The Bible is a universe that we will never get tired of.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Shaun Groves: Yeah. Sorry I got a little nerdy there, but I get excited about this.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Annie F. Downs: I do too.

Shaun Groves: So, Tammy, can you tell us the rest of the story? I don't know why it's in quotes there, "rest of the story." Did you mention the rest of the story? So what has God done for you since the passing of Trent? Are you married? Do you have children? Pets?

Tammy Trent: Great question.

Shaun Groves: Friends?

Tammy Trent: Yeah, no friends. You're stuck with me now. Annie's my best friend now.

Shaun Groves: You do have a stalker.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. Yeah, you got stalker now. We're going to call it friendship. I'm interested.

Tammy Trent: I love it. Gosh. So -- yeah, you know, I have dated, which is good, because it taught me that I wasn't stuck. And that was really important for me. It took me about eight years, though, to do that. And I remember, I was on my way to South Africa to do a women's conference and I saw this gorgeous guy walk on the plane. And I was with Anita traveling, and we were both like, "Mmm, he is gorgeous." We were both single at the time. And 12 days later I was on the plane heading back to America, and this same gorgeous guy -- not a week, not two weeks, but 12 random days, he comes walking on this plane. And we were like, Rrrrrr -- He was so good looking. And we sat down in our seats and I -- before we took off, I was like, "I'm going to use the restroom." When I came back, he had arranged to switch seats with the guy sitting next to me. So now he's sitting next to me for his 15, 16 hours home back to Atlanta. And we were talking the whole time and I just -- he was a believer. We grew up in the same church denominations. We had a lot in common, a lot of conversation. He was just so good looking and --

Shaun Groves: Was he attractive?

Annie F. Downs: Yes, but did you think he was cute? That's the part I can't figure out.

Tammy Trent: He loved God. But anyway, he was so good looking, and so -- he's a Christian.

Annie F. Downs: I can't wait to hear the rest of the story.

Tammy Trent: He's a Christian, but anyway. He was so good looking and so I kept staring at his mouth.

So anyway, we get off the plane and so he says, "Well, I'm going to come to Nashville and I'm going to ask you out." And I was like, "Well, you know, I want to be open to this." And so we started dating. We dated for six months. They were truly some great times in my life, and it truly taught me that I could love again. But it's got to be the right thing. And I knew after six months, though, that this wasn't God's best for me. I mean, he was six years old, so it was really tough. It was a big age difference. He lived at home, he didn't have a car. Things got real tough. He was super young. But he was actually 26 years old, and I was 41 at the time and --

Annie F. Downs: Oh, girl.

Tammy Trent: Right? You know, I got it, Annie.

Annie F. Downs: She is a legend. She is a legend.

Tammy Trent: I am a legend.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. You, trophies for days.

Tammy Trent: I know. I was completely flattered.

Annie F. Downs: Twenty-six?

Tammy Trent: Yeah. He was super young.

Annie F. Downs: They're all cute when they're 26.

Tammy Trent: I know, right? I know. I'm like, I can do this. I think I can do this.

Shaun Groves: So uncomfortable.

Tammy Trent: Yeah, but -- yeah, so uncomfortable. But, you know --

Annie F. Downs: Wait. So y'all broke up?

Tammy Trent: I did. I broke his heart. But he was like -- a few weeks in, he's like, "I'm going to marry you. I know that this is God's will." And I was like, "I know that it's not." I was struggling with --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's hard.

Tammy Trent: -- getting older. There was a lot of things about our personality. So many things, and I just knew that I knew that it wasn't God's will, and at some point -- you can't keep giving somebody a false hope --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Tammy Trent: -- so I had to let that go. And I learned from that, and I'm grateful for it because it taught me something. One, that I've still got it.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: That I am a legend.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, you do.

Tammy Trent: But that you can never settle for something outside of God's absolute best for your life.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah.

Tammy Trent: I was starting to do that and I could almost see my life changing in not the right ways. So don't let that happen in your life. And I learned from it and -- see, God set the bar high with Trent, and so I realized, like, unless it's another Trent in my life, or something better, then I have to wait on God. And I will always wait on God. I'm 21 years still waiting. But I'm not looking. I think there's something different -- let things happen in your life that are a great surprise rather than trying to force things to happen. That's the season I'm in. I'm not looking, but I have love. It just looks very different than what most people think it should look like.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good girl.

Tammy Trent: But we did make out and it was real fun. I can't blame him for wanting to marry me. You know what I'm talking about? I can't blame the guy.

Shaun Groves: I'm definitely not being paid enough to be here this weekend.

Jennifer Rothschild: Go ahead, Shaun.

Tammy Trent: I don't blame him for wanting to marry me.

Shaun Groves: I'm switching the order of the questions because this actually is connected.

Annie F. Downs: Okay, great.

Shaun Groves: Let's see if you can make this uncomfortable.

Annie F. Downs: Part two.

Shaun Groves: So this person is writing from the vantage point of after a divorce, but I think this is true for anybody who's experiencing singleness. So how do you deal with the loneliness? How do I go back to finding joy in the waiting? I like how you put that. That's really, really good. There's a difference between looking and waiting. That's really good. So I wonder if any of you could speak to that. How do you find the joy in the waiting and how do you deal with the loneliness?

Annie F. Downs: I also just want to give permission that looking isn't bad. It's your season.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. You know.

Annie F. Downs: There are seasons when looking for a job is the right thing to look for. There are seasons when waiting for the next right job is the right thing. So I am so with you. Seasonally you need to know is this a time when I am meant to invest with what I'm in or is this a time where I'm meant to look for the next thing?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a good word.

Shaun Groves: Yeah, that's good.

Annie F. Downs: And so there isn't a right or wrong. It's seasonal.

And I have found that loneliness doesn't seem to leave once someone gets married. My married friends are not un-lonely, they're different lonely. And so instead of trying to defeat loneliness, I've tried to partner with it and go, what do I do with it? Today I feel lonely because of this, and then I do something about the "this," not the lonely. The lonely's the thermometer; it's not the mercury.

Shaun Groves: Yeah, that's good. That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's exceptional.

Shaun Groves: That's really good.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I heard Angela Thomas -- by the way, I love Angela Thomas-Pharr. And one of the things she talked about when she became a single mom and she dealt with the loneliness, she said her most terrible hours -- and I'd love for you to talk about this too, because I just realized, Tammy, I think you've said something about this -- were at nighttime. And she said -- so she literally didn't give the devil a chance. She would take a Tylenol PM and go to bed early as soon as the kids did.

Annie F. Downs: That's it. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I thought what a practical way to deal with loneliness for a season.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. That's exactly right.

Jennifer Rothschild: What about you, especially early on, Tammy?

Tammy Trent: Yeah. Early on, same thing. I would do fine during the day because I could see., There was life, there was movement and sunshine. And when the sun would set, everything shifted and changed. It was just [makes slurping sound], went like that. So I made a conscious decision I'm not going to sit in that. What could I do? So I bought a gym membership and I started going to the gym every single night. When it would hit dark, I'd pack my bag and I'd go there for three hours. I'd work out. I didn't work out for three hours.

Annie F. Downs: That's a good choice.

Tammy Trent: I know it's hard to see. I mean...

But I'd go there for three hours. But then I would do the sauna and I'd do the hot tub, I'd sit in the steam room. And it was always amazing to me how people would walk in and you begin to talk. It gave me an opportunity when they asked me what my story was. Ask the questions. Don't be afraid to ask the questions. People want to be seen and heard, and in that your own healing starts to take place.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Tammy Trent: And so that's what I did every single day.

And then I'd have girls' nights out at my house. I knew enough to stay surrounded with really healthy- minded, godly women. And so I would invite women into my home, just 20 of us, and just -- some I knew, some I didn't. Bring a single friend. We would just hang out. So once a month I'd have dinners where I had a chance to care for other people. Because now that was gone from my life -- Trent was gone -- that kind of care and nurture, so I would nurture and care for these girls and just love on them, and that brought me back to life.

Annie F. Downs: That's really good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Super good.

Shaun Groves: As a pastor, I meet with a lot of men who are having a pornography problem. These are married men. And I've never met with one of them who has close intimate relationships with other men. There's some science behind this. It's not just my opinion and my limited observation, but that for men even, that addiction isn't primarily about sexual gratification, it's about connection and intimacy.

One of the things that I tell these men is, you know, tell me about your closest male friendship. And they never have one. And just to be the person who initiates, "Hey, let's go grab coffee." "Let's go play golf." "Hey, let's get together and watch this movie together," or bring all your friends and let's do whatever. To be the initiator, I'm leading to I'm concerned for the next generation, because we know that there's a lack of practice at initiating relationship and connection in the real world. That the connection over social media has really taken away from us the skill, the soft skills of simply being a friend, and I'm concerned about where that could go. So we end up with people who aren't really good at intimate connection with other human beings and then we bring that into a marriage. And I'm seeing people expect the marriage to fulfill that need, and one relationship cannot fulfill all of our needs for intimate relationship.

So I'm with you, Annie, that if you're a lonely person when you're single, you will still be a lonely person when you're married. And that manifests in all kinds of unhealthy ways. So learn to make friends. I know that sounds super simple and trite. It is life changing. Just learn how to have one close friend. Just one. Some people, like Tammy and Annie, need, like, 50 close friends, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's because there's so much to absorb.

Shaun Groves: There's a lot. There's a lot. You got to distribute it over many relationships.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Annie F. Downs: It's my kindness to the world, Shaun.

Shaun Groves: Yeah, it is. It is. It is.

Annie F. Downs: Can I say one stat real quick, Shaun?

Shaun Groves: Sure, yeah.

Annie F. Downs: Barna does research on all sorts of things in the church, and their research on pornography is that 55% of women look at it or read it on a regular basis. And that's not out of the church, that's in the church. And so, yeah, while we're talking about men and pornography, I also, in a room full of women, want to say don't keep secrets. Don't keep secrets.

Shaun Groves: It's connected to a relationship.

Annie F. Downs: There is no sin that is just for men and there's no sin that is just for women.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Shaun Groves: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so here's one. What is your life verse? Do you have a life verse?

Annie F. Downs: I can read it. Y'all can probably -- I know you have it memorized, yours.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know. What is it?

Annie F. Downs: Oh, yeah, I meant yours. But, yes, you probably have mine memorized too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, I probably have yours memorized too.

Annie F. Downs: I know.

Tammy Trent: Annie's favorite verse is -- 'cause she's my best friend.

Annie F. Downs: Psalm 73:25-26.

Jennifer Rothschild: Is that about the portion forever, my heart and my flesh will fail?

Annie F. Downs: Yes, 100% it is, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Go ahead.

Annie F. Downs: I knew it. It says, "Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you. My flesh and my heart may fail, but my God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. That's beautiful.

Tammy, you got one?

Tammy Trent: I do. I tattooed it on my wrist. Jeremiah 29:11, "For I know the plans I have for you, plans to give you hope and a future." I did that after Trent went to heaven. And I remember I didn't tell anybody, and I didn't want to tell my pastor parents, and so I -- beforehand, so I sent her a picture and said, "Mom, look what I did. It's my life verse and I think it opens up a door for conversation with strangers sometimes." And she said, "Well, honey, I just have one thing to say to you. I hope it's your favorite verse forever, because you got it forever.

Shaun Groves: What about you, Jennifer?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because it's there forever.

Mine is -- it's been this forever. 2 Corinthians 4:16-18. "Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we're wasting away, inwardly daily we're being renewed. And our light and temporary troubles are working within us a far greater weight of glory because that which is seen is temporary and that which is unseen is eternal." I love it. It's such an encouragement.

Annie F. Downs: What about you, Shaun?

Shaun Groves: Well, when God cast us out of the Garden and sent us to Tennessee --

Annie F. Downs: I was going to say, that sounds very personal. Wow.

Shaun Groves: -- I adopted a verse from Jeremiah 29, but it's not the one everybody goes to. So it's Jeremiah 29:7. These are the words that God spoke through the prophet, Jeremiah, to his people as he was sending them into exile in Babylon. He reminded them who they were, who sent them, and what they were supposed to do when they got there. So it stayed with me. This is good. So he says, "Seek the peace and the prosperity of the city I have exiled you to, that wherever you have been sent" -- whether they have good barbecue or not -- "God did the sending, and you are there to seek the peace and the prosperity of that place."

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Shaun Groves: So that's been really good for us.

So this question is for me. So how long did it take you to write "Welcome Home"? Well, I stole the title from Tammy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Shaun Groves: I wrote a song called "Welcome Home." I wrote that in 2000. What was the inspiration? And then they said some nice things to me. I really appreciate it.

Annie F. Downs: Can I read them?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, Annie, read the nice things they said to Shaun.

Annie F. Downs: "Your music is a blessing," two exclamation points and a heart. "It's my favorite song ever. I love the entire album. I was a young mother working on myself and it spoke to my soul. Thank you for that gift."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that, Shaun.

Shaun Groves: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So tell us how you wrote the song.

Shaun Groves: I wish it was a deep story.

Annie F. Downs: This guy traded seats with another guy on a plane.

Jennifer Rothschild: He was firming his butt.

Shaun Groves: So I was 26. I was on a flight.

Tammy Trent: I don't even -- I don't know. I don't even have any idea what that meant. I don't feel well, you guys. This ear is plugged up.

Shaun Groves: I met this lady and she'd written a song called "Welcome Home."

Annie F. Downs: That is so funny.

Tammy Trent: I probably should sit down.

Annie F. Downs: Dr. Phil is going to cancel this segment in the future.

Jennifer Rothschild: Seriously.

Shaun Groves: No. I actually was 26, and I was fairly newly married, and we bought a house. It was so cheap, but it was horribly decorated. There was just wallpaper on every surface that could take wallpaper. And so we were in there with the chemicals and the Paper Tiger and the whole thing removing that. And I don't know if it was the chemicals or the Holy Spirit, but I just felt immediately inspired. And I went into the next room and I had the chorus, I mean, the full-on -- the verse, the lyrics, and the music altogether.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shaun Groves: And it just all came out at once. We were in a sermon series at church about sanctification, how it's the process of God remaking your life so that you look more and more like Jesus in the way you think, feel, desire, believe, and behave. And I'd been thinking about that, and I guess it just kind of -- it took root. And so just all of a sudden -- and the best part is I got out of stripping wallpaper that day. It was so amazing. So I wrote a song that paid for new wallpaper and it got rid of -- I didn't have to scrape the old one off. So, yeah, that's what that was.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Shaun Groves: I really appreciate it. I don't make music anymore. I usually get asked at this conference -- I only come out of retirement occasionally when Jennifer calls. But other than that, I don't really do it anymore, so --

Annie F. Downs: We are worse for it that you don't make music anymore.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

Shaun Groves: Well, I appreciate that.

Annie F. Downs: Anytime you want to start again, we got ears.

Shaun Groves: There are younger guys who look better in skinny jeans than me, so I'll just let them do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: But the hair, Shaun, the hair.

Shaun Groves: But the hair. I understand. I understand.

So, Jennifer, did you get a chance -- I can't read. Did you get a chance to call Max McLean back? And if so, was he willing to redo that podcast?

Annie F. Downs: Oh, that story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I'm so --

Annie F. Downs: It plagues me as a podcaster.

Shaun Groves: It's so heartbreaking.

Annie F. Downs: It absolutely plagues me.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. It's painful. Well, I'm glad some -- whoever asked that, thank you, because I should have bragged about Max McLean. So, of course, when it happened, I called K.C. back, and called Paula back, and I was like, "You're not going to believe, this is the worst moment of my life," after it had been the best 52 minutes of my life. And both of them were like, "You need to call back. You need to call back." K.C.'s like, "I'll call him back." I'm like, "No. That's so indulgent, I can't ask." And Paula said to me, "Jennifer, if you had been the guest, would you redo it for someone?" I'm like, "Well, of course." "Well, then you need to ask." And that kind man was willing to do it a second time. I was so embarrassed. But he did it a second time. It was wonderful.

So you can check it out. It's on the 4:13 Podcast. Then I went to England. About two months later we were at a conference together, and I was like, "Hi, Maxie, it's me." And he goes, "Oh, yes, I remember you." I'm like, "Yeah, I bet you did." Anyway, I have such admiration for him. He's a true man of God.

Annie F. Downs: How different was the second conversation than the first?

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, the first one was a little more intimate. And probably it was the Lord's kindness in disguise, because only he and I would probably appreciate all the nuance that we went into. The second one was slightly shorter, and it wasn't quite as intimate, and I think that was better for the listener.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, it's like the Lord gave you the conversation for you and then gave you the conversation for the listener.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It was very generous.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah. How kind of him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Very.

Shaun Groves: So this is for all of you guys. "I struggle so much with the routine and monotony of everyday ordinary life. I feel bored. I'm a mother of young children, I work part time. How can I find more fulfillment in things like doing dishes and changing diapers? I feel tired, and tired of all the same things."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, sweet thing. Well, first of all, let me just hit a couple things real quick. I feel "tired" is the loudest statement I heard there. Not "I can't find purpose" or "My routine is monotonous." I heard, "I feel tired." Because tiredness -- I can't remember who it was that said it, maybe Douglas MacArthur, fatigue makes cowards out of all of us. When we're tired, everything turns a different color when it comes to our view of life, and it's dimmer, it's darker, and it seems less purposeful. Trace the root of your tiredness. Sometimes it's you're not getting enough sleep. Sometimes it's you're not getting enough leisure. And sometimes it might be a situation that's maybe even chemical or endogenous, where you're literally dealing with a depression. So trace the root of your tiredness.

Secondly, if you can carve out five minutes or get an audiobook so that while you're washing the dishes you can listen to it, I might recommend to you Brother Lawrence's "Practicing the Presence of God." Because he, for me, helped understand the redemptive moments in everything we do that seems boring or dull, washing the dishes to the glory of God.

And then the last thing I will say before my friends give their wisdom here, I have a daughter-in-law who works ten times harder than me. She's a stay-at-home mom. And I know that she could probably feel that way too on many days. And I'm going to tell you from this side of the empty nest, everything you do matters. It may not feel fulfilling, but that doesn't mean you are not fulfilling a greater purpose that you can't see right now. Literally you are planting seeds, and you're never going to really see how the tree finally grows and what it looks like. That is significant purpose. And there's a lot of moms in here right now with an empty nest who think, man, I wish I had done such and such, I wish I had done such and such. Talk to that mama. She'll help you see there is purpose in everything you do. And I'm cheering you on. But I do want you to take care of you and trace the root of your tiredness. Those are some of my thoughts.

Annie F. Downs: Winter always ends. It always ends. Seasons always end. The earth is showing us in the physical what is true in the spiritual and emotional, is that seasons don't last forever. And so that's the hope I have for you.

I'll tell you, Jennifer, one of my pastors that speaks into my life, maybe a year ago told me about Brother Lawrence's book "Practicing the Presence of God." He said, "I want you to get the audiobook and I want you to listen every day for a month." And I thought, that seems terrible. And it's only a 30-ish minute listen, it's not a very long book, and it changed my life to hear them over and over again. So even if you get that audiobook and just let it kind of play while you're getting ready in the morning or on a commute or something, it's really impactful.

And one final thing I'll say is with what Nashville has been through this week, the one thing I would ask you to pray for the families at Covenant School is sleep, because none of the moms are sleeping.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course not.

Annie F. Downs: And what is already an incredibly traumatic experience is also now happening on a lack of sleep. Many of the families are sleeping in the same rooms with their kids. Everyone's sleeping in the same room, and they're just not sleeping well. And so when you fall asleep tonight, that would be the number one thing I'd ask you to pray for our friends at Covenant School and for the staff there, is that they would sleep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

Shaun Groves: This is so hard. Jennifer and I've talked about this. I [inaudible] people who are hurting face to face. And I just wish that I could sit across from you and to just be fully present and just let you talk and just ask, "Tell me about the most tired day. Tell me what's under that. I want to know more." And I say that to say I can't be that person to you today, none of us can, but find that person.

Annie F. Downs: That's good, Shaun.

Shaun Groves: I want you to have a pastor, a mentor, someone who's a few steps ahead of you in life that you can sit down with and you can just be this vulnerable with them and let them ask you follow-up questions to hear the longing and the loss underneath this question. You need someone who can apply truth more precisely than we can in this setting. But also I want you to find community. And I love that this conference has the Bible Study Connection. That might be an opportunity, a door you could walk through to community, to be known and cared for. And I do understand, because I remember our lives when our four kids were little, that you're like, "When do I have time for that?" And I can't answer that for you. That's different for every person.

But the last thing that I feel compelled to say is have you told your husband? And I know not every husband is going to be responsive and know how to respond. I just know for me, I really want to know. I really want to know when my wife is hurting, when she feels that she's not enough. I want to know. I want to serve her. I want to care for her, to give her that opportunity to flourish, to thrive. I want to be a part of that. I really want to be her partner in life. So if you have that kind of relationship with your husband, please tell him. Maybe that's the secret Annie was talking about. Maybe it's not a sin, but it's just a struggle --

Annie F. Downs: That's right. That's right.

Shaun Groves: -- and you could just let him in and tell him what's happening.

Annie F. Downs: Yeah, that's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word, Shaun.

K.C. Wright: That was so much fun. That was ear candy right there.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was good, wasn't it? It's so great.

K.C. Wright: So real. And this is my favorite part, like I said, of Fresh Grounded Faith, when the team just spills the beans together with Jennifer. It's so cool. So if you're near Fargo or Springfield, come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Come on.

K.C. Wright: We'll save you a seat.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we will.

K.C. Wright: We got a place for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we do.

K.C. Wright: We will also have links to get you more information about Fresh Grounded Faith and all things Annie, Tammy, and Shaun at the Show notes at 413podcast.com/267.

Well, this one is a wrap. We love you, and we mean it. And remember that no matter how you feel and whatever you face, you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: See you soon.

Jennifer Rothschild: See you Springfield in or Fargo. We'll be the ones with parkas and gloves on.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Lysa TerKeurst at Fresh Grounded Faith Jackson, MS [Episode 261]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name. So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413 podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's time for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on The 4:13.

Hey, 413'ers, this Spill the Beans is live from Jackson, Mississippi with Lysa TerKeurst, and we were just sitting around the bistro table answering some really good questions. Lots of how-to's like how to forgive yourself, how to help a friend going through a divorce, how to set healthy boundaries, and how to know it's time to tell your story, especially if it might hurt someone. Hmm. See what I mean? So pull up your chair and let's spill some beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our friends. We're so glad you're here with us. We're going to have a great conversation today spilling the beans from Jackson, Mississippi. That's from a Fresh Grounded Faith event. But before we spill those beans, we're going to have to spill our own beans. So if you're new to us, I am Jennifer. My whole goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life. And that was K.C. Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy and also my dog co-parent. You co-parented Lucy with me.

K.C. Wright: I did.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So here's what we got to share with you guys. Remember a few episodes ago we told you that K.C. ended up adopting Lucy. She was so happy. In fact, before we give you an update on the Lucy saga, let me just let you hear when K.C., who thought he was only keeping the dog for a month, first got Lucy. You're going to love this exchange between the two of them.

[RECORDING OF KC & LUCY BEGINS]

K.C.: Lucy, are you excited to see Eliana?

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: Do you want to see Eliana? You miss Eliana?

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: You can't wait to see Ellie? You can't wait to see Eliana? Eliana loves you so much, Lucy. Yes.

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: You have something to say? Say it. Say it.

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: Ooh.

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

K.C.: I know, you'll see Ellie soon. Ellie's going to take care of you for a whole month. A whole month. We got lots of treats.

Lucy: (Making whiney dog sounds.)

[RECORDING OF KC & LUCY ENDS]

Jennifer Rothschild: You were clearly prepared to spoil the girl. Okay.

K.C. Wright: We spoiled the queen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, obviously.

K.C. Wright: I'll tell you what, I would love to post the email that you sent to me in preparation for the queen to live in our home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, we probably should do that.

K.C. Wright: Because, I mean, listen, this dog was royalty and it was an honor to have her. yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, okay. So on the Show Notes, we will post that email, K.C. Okay, so you'll need to forward it to me so I can stick it on the Show Notes.

K.C. Wright: I'll do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I want you guys to hear one more. Okay. So when I told you that K.C. and Ellie were spoiling Lucille, Queen Lucy --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- just listen to this at Vintage Coffee.

[RECORDING OF KC & ELLIE BEGINS]

Ellie: Come on.

K.C.: Jennifer gave us strict instructions to spoil her, and we go next level. We just went to a vintage coffee shop and bought her string cheese, because we love our baby Lucy. Uh-huh. We promised to only give her one a day. And we haven't been doing this every day, but Lucy Baby -- Lucy Baby needs a treat, like the rest of us. This is her new year. You know, we drink wine in the new year. This is her happy new year cheese. There you go. And this is why Lucy loves Eliana more than me. She follows Eliana around.

Ellie: Ow.

K.C.: But as you can see, your dog is well on the Planet Earth.

[RECORDING OF KC & ELLIE ENDS]

K.C. Wright: Well, here's the thing. I've learned this from you, J R. Friends don't let friends drink bad coffee. So I have an addiction to our local vintage coffee truck that's by my house. And what do they sell there? String cheese.

Jennifer Rothschild: So she gets the fanciest string cheese ever.

K.C. Wright: That's right. We would get our coffees in the morning and, of course, we would bring Lucy home a nice string cheese.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, all she got when she lived with me was Walmart string cheese.

All right. So you see Lucy has had the best life ever. So a few weeks ago, I was at a conference -- well, not a few weeks. Probably last week I was at a conference, and there was this Q&A time right before I spoke. And this dear lady, who listens to The 4:13, asks me: "I have a question. How's Lucy? How's it going with K.C.?" And I said, "Well, that's interesting you should ask, because I need to share with you something, so don't feel bad for asking." So we're going to share it with everybody.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So Lucy had her best life ever, didn't she?

K.C. Wright: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: She was so happy, like, three or four months.

K.C. Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then things started going a little south.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. I mean, we noticed that she was losing some weight and she wasn't able to, I don't know, make it outside fast enough. And I'm telling you, this girl, she was queen. She was potty-trained, she was our angel baby, we had a routine with her. But, man, that last month, we saw her becoming not what we, you know, welcomed in the home.

Jennifer Rothschild: She wasn't herself.

K.C. Wright: No, she wasn't herself.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it was a lot of stress. Poor, K.C. I get this email from him saying, I love you, I love Lucy, and then it's this emotional series of bullet points of just all the -- she's pooped on the carpet, I've replaced the rug twice. Anyway, it was terrible. I'm like --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: He said, "We've got to find someone else to adopt her."

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you kept her for a few days for me just to get my act together.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then I prayed that whole time, Lord, give me wisdom what to do. 'Cause I was afraid, based on what you'd said, that, you know, she might need to...

K.C. Wright: Well, she was an old girl.

Jennifer Rothschild: She was 14. Oh, no, she was 15.

K.C. Wright: We were believing God for a long life for her.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: And here's the deal. Ellie -- my 12-year-old, Ellie, fell in love with Lucy. Well, she was already in love with her when she lived here. But animals are our family at our house.

Jennifer Rothschild: They are.

K.C. Wright: I mean, I have an Australian Labradoodle and a rabbit named Leo. So, I mean, if I didn't live in a neighborhood, and I lived on a farm, we'd probably be like Noah's Ark.

Jennifer Rothschild: You probably would. Well, I will say this. When you brought her home -- because I hadn't seen her in a while -- it was very obvious that she was not long for this world. And, oh, you guys who've ever had to do this with an animal who you love and you're trying to make that hard decision, it became very clear. I knew when I saw her that she just needed to be relieved of her situation. And I prayed that Phil would feel the same way. Because we had already talked about it, and I was like, Lord, please affirm with his opinion. And sure enough, when he saw her, he said, "Oh."

So here's what I did, though, K.C. I just -- you guys may know this, but there are services that are offered where a vet comes to your home.

K.C. Wright: I didn't know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. This one here where we live is called Peaceful Crossings. I cannot speak highly enough of it. This vet was dear and warm and kind and loving. And, you know, it was still just a very hard decision, but she affirmed it was the right decision to make.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And anyway, I had her laying -- Lucy, not the vet. I had Lucy laying on my lap. And she even said, "Let's make her more comfortable." She put this fluffy pillow under her. And then she did this, K.C. She got a little dish and she filled it with that squirty cheese. And Lucy, who had no energy prior to that, like, went crazy sucking up that cheese while she gave her some shots. Anyway, it was the sweetest, most literally peaceful crossing, you know.

So, yeah, K.C. and I have decided -- this is not theological, it's just emotional -- all dogs do go to heaven. They do --

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because Lucy's there.

K.C. Wright: And cats go straight to hell, where they came from.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, some of the 413'ers --

K.C. Wright: I'm just kidding.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- they just got offended.

K.C. Wright: I'm just kidding.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know K.C.'s just being funny.

K.C. Wright: I'm just joking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. But anyway, it was sweet.

K.C. Wright: We got to laugh.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've got to laugh. But you know what that vet did also? She made a little mold of her paw print and gave it to us.

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It's precious.

K.C. Wright: That's beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it was a -- y'all know who have done this, it is a hard thing. But now K.C. and I, we have co-parented Lucy. She has gone to the next doggy world and we miss her, but it was...

K.C. Wright: And Jennifer, you know, you had warned me that this might even happen on my watch.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: You know, you had it prepared because of her age.

Jennifer Rothschild: She's 15.

K.C. Wright: And she had --

Jennifer Rothschild: Shih Tzus don't live for forever.

K.C. Wright: That's right. But anyway, it was just so sad, y'all. Because when I picked up Ellie from school, every single day she gets in the car, it's the same thing. "How's Brennan? How's Lucy? How's Leo?" Okay, this is my daughter, the animal lover. And so I had to tell her that Lucy moved to heaven and received her golden tail.

Jennifer Rothschild: She did.

K.C. Wright: And I believe that we'll see Lucy again. She was a good girl.

Jennifer Rothschild: She was a good girl.

K.C. Wright: I miss scratching her belly and her little ear scratches and -- she's so cute. And she got along with Brennan well and it was an honor hosting her. I didn't know that we were like a Hospice.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. You were.

K.C. Wright: I didn't know that. Because I had planned to keep her forever until she moved to heaven. I thought we'd have her for a couple more years.

Jennifer Rothschild: I did too, quite honestly.

K.C. Wright: But then I had to email you and say we've got issues. Something's going on. And then the vet confirmed it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It was the hard right thing to do. But you were so good with her. Oh, my gosh. Lucy, who I thought was just tired, she moves in with K.C. and she, like, comes back to life and she's, like, got a crush on K.C.

K.C. Wright: I got to tell you, though. My forever stamp of a memory is now implanted in my mind. When I dropped her back off here, how she walked away from me in this final prance. And she looked back and did one last prance, and it was like, you know what? I knew if I pooped enough in your house, you'd bring me back home. It was one more I gotcha.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what? I did not tell you this, but just for the record.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: She had been home maybe an hour and she had diarrhea in our house too.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, see?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I know. So I felt so bad for you.

K.C. Wright: And that was not normal.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

K.C. Wright: So that's why we had to get the vet.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, she was not well.

K.C. Wright: No, that was not normal.

Jennifer Rothschild: But anyway -- so I think she's somewhere with the Apostle Paul right now begging him for string cheese. I can hear it now. Anyway...

All right. So that has nothing to do with our conversation.

K.C. Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: But when friends spill the beans, you get it all.

K.C. Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So this that you're about to hear was when we were in Jackson, Mississippi. But I will tell you guys -- heads up -- I'm about to be in Plant City, Florida, for a Fresh Grounded Faith. Annie F. Downs is going to be there, and it's September 22nd and 23rd. So we'll have a link to it on the Show Notes, or you can go to freshgroundedfaith.com and find out how to get tickets. So if you're anywhere close by, please come. It's going to be so good. Fresh Grounded Faith is just always meaningful and fun. And, in fact, at this one that you're about to hear in Jackson, Michael O'Brien was there also. He was leading worship. And actually, his will be the first voice that you'll hear when we go there live.

So K.C., let's introduce Michael and Lysa.

K.C. Wright: Yes. You get to hear Michael all the time when we have a Spill the Beans, so you already know and love him. But I'll give a quick intro here. Michael O'Brien was the former lead singer of NewSong. I used to play NewSong on the radio for years.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: He's an incredible musician, singer, songwriter, and worship leader, and he's married to his beautiful wife, Heidi.

And we know you also know Lysa, but I'll still give an official intro for her. Lysa TerKeurst is President of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the best-selling author of over 20 books. She's a mom, podcaster, and she lives in beautiful North Carolina now.

So let's spill the beans. These are my favorite podcasts, by the way. I love Spill the Bean podcasts. So here we go.

Michael O'Brien: All right. Jennifer, do you think you would be doing Bible studies and conferences if you hadn't become blind?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't know what I don't know. I can assume, based on what I know of myself, my -- before I lost my sight, my goal was art. And I probably did have potential there. But I will also say this. I have a very strong will, and maybe a defiant streak and a high independence streak, which under the submission of Christ have served me well with blindness. But blindness became one of the ways God used it. It was kind of as a bridling effect for me, that all those things that could have become great liabilities actually were used to serve. So I'm not sure that I would be doing what I'm doing, because I could have just become so intensely independent and full of myself that I may have short-circuited a greater plan, and maybe God's mercy was in the form of blindness. I don't know. I don't know. But I don't know what I don't know, and so I trust God's sovereignty that this was his plan and his purpose.

Michael O'Brien: I've always said that Jennifer sees things way more clearly than some of my sighted friends.

Okay. How do we support -- Lysa, how do we support our Christian friends going through divorce?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Well, I alluded to it in my last session, that a divorce is really the death of a marriage. And that's really what I call my divorce, the death of my marriage. And so, you know, how you support a friend in grief, when they've lost someone, is really how you should support them when they experience the death of a marriage.

I think a couple things. One is it's not ever helpful to try to figure out why the divorce happened. And I think sometimes people want to, like, process that with a friend to try to help them figure out. It's really not going to be helpful unless they bring it up and they want to process it.

The other thing that I would say is pray that that friend -- first of all, I would say pray more words over that friend than words you speak to that friend, because prayer is really that important. But the other thing is pray that they can find some friends who are walking the same road that they are. I have three friends that are -- they have tragically walked through pretty much the same thing as me and -- you know, I'm a little ahead of them, but we all get together and we are our support system. I think one hard thing is when you go through a divorce, there's these little moments that happen that are just -- they catch you off guard and they're just overwhelming. For example, when I went to the doctor and I had to put on my form -- it says, "Married," "Divorced," "Single." And I was like, "Ugh." So, you know, I had to circle "Divorced." And then it says, "Emergency Contact." And I don't know why, but that just about sent me over the edge. And I just sat in the doctor's office and I thought, I don't have my person anymore.

And so these three friends became my people. We track each other. We all have started going on dates. I won't give any information about that. But we are a tremendous support system. We check in before the date, we check in during the date. We have threatened to come and spy, like, be in the restaurant to rescue. But it's so helpful to have that. So if you are a friend who has not been through a divorce, do pray for some friends in your friend's life that have walked through that.

And the other thing is, you know, when someone loses someone to a death, you do get casseroles, you do get help. People know to practically support you. And I would say take your friend a casserole. You don't even have to have a conversation. Just ring the doorbell, Here, here's some toilet paper -- I know you'll need that -- and some paper towels and a casserole, and I love you. And you would be surprised how much that practical help goes a long way.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. That's good.

Michael O'Brien: That's good stuff.

So -- this is a tough one. I destroyed my marriage. Had an affair two years ago that lasted for several months. My husband says he has forgiven me, but I can feel the resentment and I know he doesn't look at me the way he once did. How do you find grace and forgiveness for yourself when you have hit the self-destruct button on your marriage and you're left with pieces of what once was?

Jennifer Rothschild: Whoever wrote this question, we really do feel your heartbreak on that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the heartbreak. There is grace and there is forgiveness. And sometimes -- this is just a thought. Sometimes we assign to others what we're really feeling ourselves. So perhaps if you are really struggling with self-loathing or a lack of forgiveness, it could be that you are assigning that to your spouse. Perhaps he really legitimately has forgiven you, and you are so -- it's so difficult for you to forgive yourself that you're assigning that same resentment or lack of forgiveness to him. Maybe. It's just a thought.

But I do know this. I've never had that situation, and I can only imagine -- I've done other things in my marriage that I have felt so guilty about and I wish I could erase. And when we can't erase something, it's so hard to sit with something, because this forgive and forget is a bunch of crock. There's only one perfect forgetter, and it's God, and he has washed that sin away. So it might be the 70 times 7 forgiveness thing that you have to do every day for yourself. And then try to believe that what God said is true and what your husband said is true, unless your husband says it is no longer true. But if he says it's true, it would honor him best for you to believe it's true and live like it.

Lysa TerKeurst: One thing I'll add that my counselor said -- that was really good, Jennifer, thank you -- for every rip, there needs to be a repair. And I like that, because I think as you become aware of maybe something that has been ripped in your relationship, it's good to pray and ask God, like, how do I repair this little rip? I may not be able to on the macro level fix everything today, but could I tweak this? Could I do a repair right here? Could I say something kind here? Could I give him some reassurance right here?

The best thing that -- when my ex-husband and I were in a season of what I thought was going to be reconciliation, some of the best advice that he was given is that when I had questions -- so he's the one that had the affair, and so I'm the one now with the trust issues. So when I would have questions, the best thing for him to do would be to say, Of course you have that question, of course you feel that way, of course you want to look at my phone, instead of getting defensive. Because if he got defensive, that would tell me that something was up again. But if he was really humble and kind about it, that would say he's still in that soft-hearted place.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

Michael O'Brien: Well, y'all don't know my story fully, but there were breaches in our marriage. And to be -- I'm kind of in this lady's place right here. Or I was for quite a long time. And I had expectations. I wanted things to happen quicker, forgiveness. I knew that God had forgiven me, because I really believed that I had a godly sorrow, that it wasn't, hey, I just got caught doing something. However, my spouse, my wife, it was taking time to build the trust back up. And, yeah, there were some really difficult conversations and difficult statements made, one being, "Are you in Christ?" And at first, I wanted to be offended, but then I understood.

So there's just got to be a lot of understanding, patience, a building back of trust, opportunities to build that trust back -- what Lysa just spoke about -- and just a tenderness and just understanding that when you sin against somebody that you love, it's devastating. It's deep. It's not, oh, you know, hey, give it a week and she should be all right, or give it a week and he'll be all right. There is years. It took me years to build that trust back up. And I can tell you that we are, by the Grace of God -- if we're going to boast, we boast in the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Michael O'Brien: It's only by his grace that we are still together. And she had every right to leave. I mean, it's tough for me to say that because, you know, you're admitting to -- and y'all don't know all the details, but there's no justification of it. When you fail somebody that you love, you've failed them. But first and foremost, as David said, "I've sinned against you and you alone, God." And then there's the connection of the people that you've sinned against, that you have to rebuild that trust, and it takes time. It just takes time, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Lysa TerKeurst: My counselor also said -- first of all, thank you, Michael, for sharing that. I know that you just blessed a lot of people to have the ability to hear a tender man's voice. So thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Lysa TerKeurst: My counselor said trust is built time plus believable behavior. So it is going to take time and it is going to take believable behavior.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. That's so good.

All right, Jennifer. How do you do a public teaching session without notes? Do you have prompts in your ear or is it memorized? You always sound so fresh and speak from your heart. How do you keep it all straight?

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't have anything in my ear telling me anything. But I spend a lot of time visualizing what I'm going to speak about. I do memorize Scripture. But I visualize my message in my mind. I have my main points that I'm going to make. I laughed when you said you couldn't remember the word "ladder," Michael, earlier, because I do create a ladder in my mind. And underneath the first rung of the ladder is how I'm going to introduce. And I'll use pictures if there's pictures I can use. First rung of the ladder will always be my first point, and I usually put the Scripture next to that in my mind's eye.

So when I am sharing, often, if you really watch me, when I'm getting ready to transition up the rung of the ladder, I will literally lift my eyes up, like I'm looking up to see what's next. And so I don't memorize verbatim because I also want to just be able to know the audience and trust the fluidity of the Holy Spirit's leadership, but I have my main things that I know I'm going to hit. And in between the rungs of the ladder, it may vary a little bit.

But, yeah, that's how I do it. It's just -- it does take a little bit of discipline, but it is possible for everybody. You don't have to be blind to be able to do it, I promise.

Michael O'Brien: All right, Lysa. My adult daughter has set boundaries with me and, number one, I'm heartbroken. And number two, she won't communicate with me why or what I've done. What do I do?

Lysa TerKeurst: That's really tough. And I've had that situation in my life where someone I love very much set a boundary, which basically meant that they were shutting me out. And that's not a boundary.

You see, a boundary -- what a boundary really is, a boundary is an effective communication tool. And the communication tool of a boundary is -- remember, we put a boundary on ourself. And the communication tool for the boundary is for you to be able to establish what you will and will not accept, what you can and cannot give, and what is and is not acceptable. It's really that simple. I mean, it's very hard to do, but it boils down to it's a communication tool. And when you shut the communication off before attempted conversations have been had to establish smaller boundaries -- you know, we don't want to take leaps to, like, access zero. So when that happens, that's really, really hard. And it's usually an indication that there's a tremendous amount of hurt.

And so if this was my daughter, I'm not going to give her a lesson or try to school her on healthy versus unhealthy boundaries. I'm not going to do that. But as appropriate, if she would give me a little tiny window, I would just pour grace and love and understanding. And one of the best things to say to someone who's so hurt that they've shut you out is, "Help me understand and I promise I will listen."

So I pray that you do have just somehow a little sliver, a little opening, a little something. And I think just ask God for that. And if it's not there now, don't feel like -- you know, this is one day, it's not forever. And so this is a part of your story, but it doesn't have to be the whole of your story. So I would ask God for a sliver, just the tiniest little bit, and enter that place in with, "Help me understand, you know, and I promise I will listen."

Jennifer Rothschild: Good. Good advice.

Michael O'Brien: Two more here. I'm a pastor's wife and was a pastor's daughter. Protecting my family is very important to me. How do you know when it's safe and important to share your testimony if it could ruin your loved one's life?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's how you know. If it's going to ruin someone's life, then no. Here's what I mean by that. I just interviewed Beth Moore on my podcast, and she just came out with her memoir. And she talked to me about the -- knowing it was okay to write it now, the timing. And she disclosed a lot about her own past, which if she had shared earlier would have ruined someone. She shared some things about her husband, with his complete blessing; whereas in the past if she had shared, it would have ruined him.

So there may be a time when it is appropriate, you know, because of maturity or seasons, but there may be a time it's never appropriate. And I guess what I want to say to the sisters in Christ, we don't have to tell everybody everything for Jesus to get glory. We just don't. And there are times when you can be honest without being thorough, and that's totally legit. You know, sometimes we think only the big drama stories are the ones that are effective for Jesus. No. Your authentic well-lived story with discretion is also very effective for Jesus. So if you think it's going to ruin somebody's life, then that's your red flag that it, yes, will ruin someone's life, so it's not time. That's my thoughts.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, that's good.

Lysa TerKeurst: Thank you, Jennifer.

I would also say I knew when it was okay for me to share just some context of what I was walking through when I was more eager to share the transferable wisdom that I gained in the situation and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Not just the story.

Lysa TerKeurst: -- and not just the story. And I've -- I mean, people know what I've been through, but there's no details. And the main reason is because there's a big difference between privacy and secrecy. Secrecy -- like, I'm not keeping secrets from my audience by not sharing the details, because secrecy is for the purpose of hiding something so bad behavior can continue. That's not what I'm doing.

Privacy is withholding details for the sake of healing. And I want my family to be able to heal, I want my ex-husband to be able to heal, and so I provide the bare minimum context. But the bulk of my books, the bulk of my speaking, it's not details. Details are like sugar. It's not really going to nourish anybody's soul.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, no.

Michael O'Brien: That's all good. I don't need to add anything. I -- yeah.

So let's just go to the last question. What's the most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Finally we're lightening up around here. Mine, eighth grade. I was just beginning to shave my legs. And I have very thick hair. On my legs also. And so we were driving from Miami to North Carolina, and I decide for those three days I'm not going to shave my legs. Well, by the time I get to North Carolina, it's very Sasquatch.

And so we got to the camp that we were going to a little late, so my brothers and I head straight up the mountain to recreation. And they had split us up into different groups. And I had never met these teenagers before. And so they were playing this game called People Passer, and all of the students -- there were like 40 in our group. And so 20 stand on one side, and 20 stand on the other, and they're fingertip to fingertip, you know, because they're going to pass a person. And whichever team could pass their person the fastest was the winner.

Well, I happened to be tiny at the time, and so I lay on my back and everybody's passing me along, with my little short shorts in 1978 and my hairy legs, and every student is making a comment, "Ouch. Don't you ever shave your legs? Owe. This is so gross." It was horrible. I had to spend the whole week with them. It was awful. So that definitely has been my most embarrassing -- like, it impacted me so deeply, I never -- I shave my legs every day, hair or not.

All right, Michael, finish us up.

Michael O'Brien: It was a place called The Rusty Bucket. South Carolina. Small event, outside, inside. Very hot, summer. I head down there, park my car in an alley, go get a sound check. The guy brought me in, was very excited that I was there, and he gave me a T-shirt that says, you know, "I Sang At The Rusty Bucket," or whatever. He said, "Do you mind wearing this?" I'm like, "Sure." I mean, nobody was around except the sound guy, and so I took the shirt off, put my shirt on. And I realized -- you know, being a -- I'm a married man, and so I want to make sure I matched and -- I wouldn't want my wife to be upset that I didn't match. And so my pants did not match the shirt, so I was like, okay, well, I'm going to go into the alley -- and there's no bathroom in the area -- and I was just going to do a quick change. That was it.

So I go into the alley, I set everything up. My van door's open, and the alley's over here. I do the final check. I look around, nobody's there. My pants are there. I pull my pants down, I grab my pants, I pull -- and I look over, and right in that moment a 16-year-old girl, her mother, and her grandmother all turned and was walking up on me. And really did that thing that they do when you're like, "Oh, oh, oh," like that, and pretended like they didn't see. And it was the wife of the guy who brought me in. They were bringing me lunch. And I had to sit in a room with all three of them and have lunch while the 16-year-old never made eye contact. Not once. She never looked at me.

Jennifer Rothschild: She had seen enough. Sorry. I love you, brother.

All right, the beans have officially been spilled. Thank these guys.

K.C. Wright: I love it when we just get to talk about the stuff that matters. That is what Spill the Beans is. And it's always so good. It's always so life giving and, what I love, practical.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right on. I agree.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that means you need to find somebody, our friends, who needs a casserole. Okay? It soothes and ministers, no matter what situation a person's in. Okay?

By the way, you can find Lysa's books and Michael's music on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/261.

K.C. Wright: So many times when I listen to the podcast, J.R. or a guest will drop a golden nugget. It's a word that I need in that time. And I love that we have the complete transcript at 413podcast.com/261. You'll find the transcript there so you can read all the wisdom you just heard.

All right, our friends, this one is a big ol' rap. So this week, you find somebody you can spill the beans with. All right? We need each other. And here's truth. We are better together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: And remember, no matter what you face or how you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

K.C. Wright: I miss Lucy.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: Thank you for the honor of allowing us to have your queen diva in our homes and hearts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you treated her like the queen she was, that's for sure.

K.C. Wright: I did pray for you because that was your family dog.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: And she moved to heaven. But it was time.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was.

K.C. Wright: It was time.

4:13 Podcast: Encore With Lee Strobel on The Case for Heaven [Episode 257]

K.C. Wright: Hey 4:13ers, Jennifer is still in Italy and this is KC, her seeing eye guy. And I’m home, working on my envy! No, kidding! Actually, the best part of Jennifer being overseas is that we get another encore episode of the 4:13. And even though that's amazing, I still miss my soul sister. But I am so thrilled for her that she's having the time of her life. Pray for her, okay? Do me a favor - just pray for her right now that God would protect her and His hand would be upon her and that He would bring her home safely to us.

Okay, last week, Max McLean talked about C.S. Lewis as the most reluctant convert, and this week, we have - drumroll please - Lee Strobel who could have called himself, at one time, a most reluctant convert also. This will be the second week to hear about two men’s journeys from atheism to faith. While Lee doesn’t go into his whole conversion experience, that’s still his story, and this episode will be full of evidences affirming the reality of our faith. So, pour some Italian coffee in honor of our globe-trotting girl and let’s enjoy this podcast together. Here we go!

Lee Strobel: It caused me to really think, what do I believe happens after I close my eyes for the last time in this world? I mean, I'm a Christian, I believe the Bible, I believe what it teaches about the afterlife. But I'm also a journalist, I'm trained in law, I tend to really seek out evidence and facts and logic and so forth. So I thought, what does the evidence show, what does the evidence of Scripture show? But what does the evidence outside the Bible show about whether we live on after our experience in this world?

Jennifer Rothschild: Heaven, for billions of people around the world and for me personally is an awe-inspiring place, but we only fully understand it once we're there. Well, today we get a taste from author Lee Strobel as he makes a case for heaven. He'll explore the evidence for an afterlife as he addresses people's biggest fear: death. You're going to get three reasons that you can believe heaven is real. So giddy-up, let's go. Well, let's go to the introduction, not to heaven right yet. Let's do the introduction first.

K.C. Wright: Let's do it. Welcome, welcome to a bonus episode of the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you. Now, your host, a woman who is so excited about this guest and this topic that I'm trying to literally keep her in her chair. Calm down.

Jennifer Rothschild: Calm down.

K.C. Wright: Would you please make welcome Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Calm down. This is a calmed-down Jennifer. Welcome. We are super glad you're here. I'm Jennifer, here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life. And K.C.'s right. Oh, my goodness, you are in the right place right now, my friend. K.C. and I are happy you're here because we are talking heaven. And it is one of my favorite topics, I got to be honest, because the Bible says the Kingdom of Heaven is now. So it is real for them, but it is real for now, and so we're going to talk about it with Lee Strobel, which also is the reason I'm excited, because I love his work.

K.C. Wright: Same.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: Amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's going to be a really good day. So whatever you're doing, thanks for letting us do it with you, because it's better when we're together. And quick thank you for all of you who have been leaving reviews. It makes such a difference. So thanks for doing that.

There's a movie coming out called "The Case for Heaven" --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- based on Lee's book.

K.C. Wright: I've seen the preview. I'm excited.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's going to be so good. And it's in theaters right now or, depending when you're listening, right around now. But I got to tell you my favorite story about heaven, K.C.

K.C. Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: This came from the lips of my oldest son when he was just six years old. Okay. So y'all know -- unless you're new to us, you may not know that I'm blind. I lost my sight as a teenager. So when I had our first child, my husband and I had our first child, Clayton, it took him a couple of years to figure out that his mommy couldn't see. And once he got old enough to really understand it, he began to pray that God would heal my eyes. And this was a real sincere prayer for him. Like, if it was before lunch, before his ham sandwich, or if it was at bedtime, "Dear God, please heal Mommy's eyes." All right? So it was super important to the little man.

All right. You need to know that because one day he and I were playing a game, and we were -- he had picked out a different game that we hadn't played before. And, you know, it's hard to find games that I can play that are tactile enough and not too complex. So anyway, he thought he found this new game. Well, it took just a few minutes before, like, little marbles were rolling and little men were flying. And I've told y'all this story before. If you're a 4:13er, you know, this story. And so I got real frustrated. And I said, "Clayton, you're going to have to pick a different game, because this one's not working. Let's pick one that will work." Well, he's super quiet as he's cleaning up the game. And he folds up the gameboard after he has dutifully put every piece back in their little slots. And then he puts the lid on the game and he said something. And you know how you know when somebody's like -- even though they're really quiet, you can tell their little mind -- he was thinking about a lot of stuff.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So finally when he put the lid on the game, he said, "Mom, I was thinking. I don't think God is going to heal you here on earth." Well, because he'd been praying so much that God would heal my eyes, I thought that was just spectacular. And I was like, "So why, Clayton? Why would you think that? Why do you think God would not heal me here on earth?" And he said this. He said, "Because if God healed you on earth, you might love earth more, and heaven is best."

K.C. Wright: Oh, wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that beautiful? And I remember that day just sitting on that shag blue carpet next to that profound little boy, who didn't even realize how profound what he said was --

K.C. Wright: Oh, my.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I thought, Lord, let me live with that mindset. Yes, earth is great. And Jesus came to give us life here and life more abundantly, absolutely, and let's enjoy it to the fullest. But the Kingdom of Heaven is now --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and the reality of heaven then can inform today.

K.C. Wright: Come on. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then someday our faith will be sight and we'll be there. And -- heaven is best. So if there's a situation in your life where your longings haven't been met yet, maybe the healing hasn't come yet, maybe God's reserving it for heaven. Because heaven is best and he wants you to love -- have your treasure where your heart is instead of loving earth more. I don't know where you are today, but I do know this. This conversation that I had with Lee Strobel is warm and inspiring, but it's also just so intellectually honest. I think you're going to love it. So I think if we can't get to heaven yet, we at least need to get to Lee Strobel. Right, K.C.? So let's introduce the man.

K.C. Wright: Atheist turned Christian, Lee Strobel, the former award-winning legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, is a New York Times bestselling author of more than 40 books. And they have sold -- this is crazy -- 14 million copies in total.

Jennifer Rothschild: Can you even believe it?

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: He's got a powerful message.

K.C. Wright: Yes. I heard that Kathie Lee Gifford gave "The Case for Christ" to Evel Knievel and he got born again from above --

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah.

K.C. Wright: -- from reading that book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, because God is using Lee.

K.C. Wright: Yeah, yeah. Lee currently serves as founding director of the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University. In 2017, Lee's spiritual journey was depicted in an award-winning motion picture, "The Case for Christ." Which is amazing and you should watch it right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm.

K.C. Wright: Which followed in theaters around the world. And it's an incredible movie.

Lee and wife, Leslie, have been married for 48 years. Are you ready for this? Settle in. You are going to absolutely love this conversation. This is one for the history books here at the 4:13 Podcast. Here's Jennifer and Lee talking about the film "The Case for Heaven."

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, Lee, it is truly an honor to have you on the 4:13. I have looked forward to this because I love your work, and I especially love what you've done --

Lee Strobel: Well, thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- with this new topic. I really have loved it.

Lee Strobel: I appreciate that.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's interesting to me because you do not shy away from anything that is complicated and sometimes what seems like it's even not provable. You know, those are your topics. So I'm curious, what made you choose to topic this itty-bitty little subject like death and the afterlife?

Lee Strobel: Well, it's because ten years ago I almost died. My wife found me unconscious on the bedroom floor, she called an ambulance. I woke up in the emergency room. The doctor looked down at me and said, "You're one step away from a coma, two steps away from dying," and then I went unconscious again. So I had an unusual medical condition called hyponatremia, which is a severe drop in my blood sodium level. And I lingered there between life and death for quite a while until they were able to save my life. And I found it to be a very clarifying experience. It wasn't all bad. In other words, the good side of it is it caused me to really think, what do I believe happens after I close my eyes for the last time in this world? I mean, I'm a Christian, I believe the Bible, I believe what it teaches about the afterlife. But I'm also a journalist, I'm trained in law, I tend to really seek out evidence and facts and logic and so forth. So I thought, what does the evidence show? What does the evidence of Scripture show, but what does the evidence outside the Bible show about whether we live on after our experience in this world? And that's what launched me on writing "The Case for Heaven."

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm super attached to the concept of heaven. I'm a believer in Christ also, but I also, Lee, happen to be blind.

Lee Strobel: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's been interesting to me how blindness has given me this greater attachment toward the idea of heaven, but also to the reality of it, because that's where so much of my hope on the bad days comes from.

Lee Strobel: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I think it's interesting that you mentioned the left brain of you is looking for the evidence. Okay?

Lee Strobel: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you talk about that you did find evidence outside the Bible --

Lee Strobel: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for the afterlife. So I'm curious, how'd you get that evidence?

Lee Strobel: Yeah. I mean, I traveled around the country and interviewed expert scholars on various topics, neuroscientists on the existence of the soul. But the most fascinating thing to me was the question of near-death experiences. Can they tell us anything really about the afterlife? And I was very skeptical about that. I thought, yeah, sure, these people die and they claim that they met Jesus and he's 5 foot 10 and he has blue eyes. I don't know, you know. There have been fraudulent cases of people who made claims like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Lee Strobel: So I wanted to really research can near-death experiences tell us anything about the afterlife? And I found that there are about 900 scholarly articles about near-death experiences that have been published over the last 50 years in scientific and medical journals. This is a very well-researched area. In fact, "The Lancet," which is the famous medical journal in England, carried an analysis of near-death experiences and said that none of the alternative explanations for these can fully account for what takes place. So I began as a skeptic to say, well, wait a minute. I'm only going to look at those cases where I have corroboration, in other words, where people see things or hear things or experience things during this out-of-body experience that they could not have seen or heard or experienced if this wasn't authentic.

And, you know, Jennifer, what you just told me about your blindness -- which I was not aware of -- there was one study done of 21 blind people, most of them blind since birth, who had near-death experiences. And during those near-death experiences, they were able to see, many of them for the first time. And so you have a woman -- I'm thinking her name is Vicky -- she was blind virtually since birth. She was in a car accident and clinically dead, she had no measurable brainwaves, she had no heartbeat, and yet she said later, "I was conscious the whole time and I was able to see. I was able to watch these people trying to resuscitate my body. And then I saw birds and I saw trees for the first time."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Lee Strobel: And then what's interesting is in every one of these cases, when they were revived, their eyesight disappeared again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Lee Strobel: And one researcher said this is medically impossible, it's just medically impossible, and yet it's well-documented in the scientific literature. So those are the kind of cases I look at and say, Wait a minute. This is telling us something, that we do continue to exist in some way after at least our clinical death. These people are not irreversibly dead -- they're coming back, you know -- but they're clinically dead, no heartbeat, no brainwaves, and so forth.

So my favorite case of this is a woman named Maria, who died in the hospital. And she said later that, "Yeah, I know I was declared dead, but I was conscious the whole time." And she said, "My spirit separated from my body, I was watching the resuscitation efforts on my body, and my spirit floated out of the ceiling and out of the hospital." And she said, "When I was revived, my spirit rejoined my physical body." And then she said to the people in the hospital, "By the way, there's a man's tennis shoe on the roof of the hospital. It's left footed, it's dark blue, it's a man's shoe. It's got a little wear over the little toe and the shoelaces tucked under the heel." And so they go up to the roof of the hospital and they find it exactly as she said.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

Lee Strobel: Yeah. So something is going on here. And what's really fascinating to me is I interviewed, for the book and for the movie, John Burke. John Burke is the pastor of a wonderful church, a large church in Austin, Texas, but he's also a near-death experience researcher, and he's researched 1,000 cases of near-death experiences over the last 30 years. And his conclusion -- he's actually written a book about this called "Imagine Heaven." But his conclusion -- which he documents this stuff. His conclusion is that when you look at what actually takes place during a near-death experience -- not how people interpret it, but what actually happens -- it is consistent with Christian theology. So that is a breakthrough bit of research that he did in that area.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lee Strobel: So to me, this indicates that -- the Apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So we know biblically that when we die, our spirit, our soul, our consciousness separates from our physical body and we are either in the presence of the Lord or away from him during this interim period, this intermediate state. And then when history is consummated, when Jesus returns at the end of history and we are reunited with our now resurrected bodies, we go through final judgment and then we spend eternity in either a very physical heaven or a very physical hell. And so what these near-death experiences tell me is that the evidence outside the Bible supports this description of what the Bible has.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is such an affirmation to the truth of Scripture. And it's such hope. It's such hope to the human heart. You know, even if they have not yet chosen Christ, it's still hope that there is something greater. And I think we've all been even more sensitized lately because of the pandemic.

Lee Strobel: No question.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've been so aware that we're fragile, you know. It's made more people curious, like what in the world comes next?

Lee Strobel: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm curious, did that affect or influence the way that you've dealt with this evidence?

Lee Strobel: You know, it was in God's timing that I did this project as the pandemic was unfolding. My older brother died at the beginning of the pandemic. And many of us -- 29% of Americans know someone who died during the pandemic. And my wife and I were having lunch at a restaurant in Houston, and we got in a conversation with the server, who was like an 18-year-old young woman. And all of a sudden, she started to cry. And we said, "What's wrong?" She said, "Oh, I'm so sorry. I almost didn't come into work today. We just lost a family member to Covid." And I thought, here's a young woman -- she's probably 18 years old, probably never thought about death. Why should she? She's got her whole life ahead of her. And yet you could see the anxiety, the apprehension in her eyes.

And so I think, Jennifer, you are absolutely right, I think this is a time in history when so many of us have felt fragile, have felt exposed, have felt like we could end up closing our eyes for the last time in this world, so how do we know what really takes place after that? And you used the one word that I hope people walk away from from reading the book or seeing the movie, and that's the word hope.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Lee Strobel: I hope both believers and nonbelievers walk away with hope.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, it is, it's such a source of hope, the reality of heaven. So I'm going to finish up, Lee, with two questions. Okay? And they're really simple to ask --

Lee Strobel: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but quite more complicated for you to answer. So we're going to just try it. Okay? So here's the first of the last two questions. All right?

Lee Strobel: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: What happens when we die?

Lee Strobel: Yeah. Well, when we die, at that moment of clinical death, physical death, our spirit, our soul, our consciousness continues to live on. It separates from our body. We know that because Jesus told the person being crucified next to him on the cross, "Today you'll be with me in paradise." Apostle Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord. So our consciousness, our spirit, lives on. Now, this is contrary to what some atheists say, who say we don't have a soul, we don't have a spirit, we don't really have a consciousness. It's an illusion. We don't really even have free will, we're just a bunch of neurons firing in our brains. I think that's belied by the evidence that I talk about in the book.

And then we continue during that intermediate state to live on. If we're a follower of Jesus, we're in his presence during that time. If we're not, we are separated from him. But it's an intermediate step, it's not our final destination. That comes when the curtain of history is finally pulled shut, when Jesus returns, when we're reunited with our resurrected body and when we go through final judgment. And then our eternal destination is sealed forever. We're either in the presence of the Lord or we're separated from him in a place called hell.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I just have to ask. Even though I said I had two more questions, I'm going to throw this in. Have you read "The Great Divorce" by C. S. Lewis?

Lee Strobel: Yes, years ago, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Because what you're describing -- I find how it's just such an informed, imaginative picture of what you're describing. And I would also highly recommend that to our listeners, too, because I think it just informs your imagination more.

Okay. But here is our very last question.

Lee Strobel: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Why can we believe that heaven is real? Why can we believe that?

Lee Strobel: I think for three reasons. Number one, we do have a soul that can survive our physical death. Yes, our body is declared clinically dead, or it's declared dead, but we're not just a body. And in my book and in the film, we make the case that we are a hyphenated creature. That is, we're a body, but we're also a soul or a spirit. The Bible assumes that. I mean -- you know, there's a couple hundred references to our soul in Scripture, but it never sits down and defines here's what a soul is. And the reason is we all intuitively know that we're not just a physical body, we have a consciousness, a soul. So that's number one.

Number two, near-death experiences tell us with confidence that at the time of death, our spirit, our soul, our consciousness does continue to live on. Now, near-death experiences can't tell us for how long, but I think they're confirming of what the Bible tells us.

And then third and most important reason we can trust what the Bible tells us is that we have strong historical evidence that Jesus not only claimed to be the Son of God, but he backed up that claim by returning from the dead. Consequently, he is an authority on the afterlife. He not only is an eyewitness to the afterlife, because he was dead himself, but he created the afterlife. He is God himself and so we can trust what he tells us about the afterlife. And what does he tell us? Well, the Bible uses a lot of figurative language because -- the Bible says, "No eye has seen, no ear is heard, no mind has even conceived of what God has in store for those who love him." We can't really understand how beautiful and wonderful and secure and grace filled it will be.

But Jesus uses metaphors. And I'll end with one of my favorites when he's talking to his disciples. And he uses a metaphor of home, that heaven is like home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Lee Strobel: And I don't know if you've ever traveled internationally, maybe to a third world country where things are -- conditions are difficult. But I've been to India, I've lived on, you know, a sleeping bag on the ground and eating foods that were strange to me. And you do that for a period of time and you begin to develop a homesickness. You begin to long for home. And when you finally return home from this trip and you walk into the door of your home, it is such a place of wonder and warmth and security and grace that you're just overwhelmed by it, and you crawl into your own bed and it feels so good. And Jesus is saying to his disciples and to us, that's the metaphor I want you to hang on to. Heaven is like a home. It's like a real home. This is not in our world. This is not our home. We're just passing through this world. Heaven is like home on steroids. And so we will experience those qualities of grace and joy and wonder and appreciation, and I believe adventure and creativity, as we spend eternity in the presence of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Heaven is home. So let's go. I'm ready. Whenever the Lord is ready, I am ready, because we will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. So if you're in the valley right now, you are not alone. Your Shepherd is with you. His rod and his staff, they will comfort you. He has prepared a place for you, and you're going to dwell there forever, forever and ever.

K.C. Wright: It is home. Jesus said, "Hey, if it wasn't so, I wouldn't have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." He's building a mansion for you. And, you know, I wonder, when Lazarus died and his sisters begged Jesus to do something, Jesus called, "Lazarus, come forth." And I bet Lazarus said, "Really? Do I have to?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Seriously.

K.C. Wright: "I mean, now?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Because heaven is real.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Seriously, y'all, it is as real as the air that you are breathing right now. So get to the movie. It's in theaters right now. It's called "The Case for Heaven."

K.C. Wright: Yeah. "The Case for Heaven" is releasing in theaters nationwide April 4th, 5th, and 6th, 2022. Take all your peoples.

Jennifer Rothschild: All your people.

K.C. Wright: Heaven is our hope. And because heaven is real, you can trust that everything else God promised is real, too. That includes his power. So remember, you can today, in this moment right now, do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can.

K.C. Wright: (Singing) Let's go to the movies.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oooo, that's good.

K.C. Wright: (Singing) Let's go see the stars. Let's go to the movies, Annie. Okay, sorry.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, it's so good. I need popcorn. I need popcorn. This is good.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. Yeah, we need Skinny Pop, we need --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I need my La Croix because I don't drink Coke anymore.

K.C. Wright: Oh, I'm so proud of you. I'm a big fan of that. Ellie and I actually went to the movies not too long ago and we watched Sing 2.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

K.C. Wright: I hadn't been to the movies for a long time, and I walked out looking like one round circle. The junk food that we ate during that movie, I'm still repenting for it. But when I checked in, I had won all these things because a part of the movie club. And I got a kid's meal and a popcorn and some candy and a fruit snack and a -- oh, it was bad.

Jennifer Rothschild: And then you got indigestion.

K.C. Wright: I just rolled out, rolled out of the movie.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Kelly Minter at Fresh Grounded Faith Melbourne, FL [Episode 248]

Kelly Minter: So, yeah, we had an extra shot, and now we are about to spill some beans. And, Jennifer, don't make me spill all my beans. Okay? I just want us to be able to have a little bit of control up here. And we've got Michael as well, so this is awesome. Are you guys ready?

Jennifer Rothschild: Pack your bags, 413ers. You are going to Florida with me and Kelly Minter. We are in Melbourne, Florida, at a Fresh Grounded Faith and we are spilling some beans. We talk about how to manage our expectations, what to do when you feel God is far away. Kelly even talks about why she's not married. We talk about how to deal with doubt, and I even answered lots of questions that were very interesting about my blindness. This was some really good stuff. So pull up your chair to the bistro table and let's spill the beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast. We're so glad you're here. This is where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom come together to set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you truly can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host -- don't you love her? Here's Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I sure do love you guys and you, K.C.

K.C. Wright: Aw.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you so much for being here today, my friends. We're glad you're here. I'm Jennifer, just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life. And it is two friends, one topic, zero stress, though that actually doesn't apply here. Well, I mean, the zero stress applies, but we got lots more than two friends. Because this was captured live in Melbourne, Florida, though K.C. wishes it were Melbourne, Australia --

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- with 1,000 friends. This was a large group of amazing women.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I just have to tell you what happened in Melbourne. Okay. This was just a very stressful weekend for me. Okay. So we always fly on Thursdays, because the event starts on Friday night, and I've had too many flying nightmares. So we always get in Thursday night. Well, we get literally on the plane Thursday afternoon and I start to feel bad.

K.C. Wright: Uh-oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: By the time I get off the plane that night, like, my joints are aching, I have a headache, fever. I did not feel good. I get in bed, of course, and I can tell I'm sick, like this is a thing. So I determine I'm going to stay in bed until, like, you know, 3:00 on Friday, I'll get up -- because I had to be at the church -- I had to leave it at, like, 4:00 for a meet and greet and sound check and all that stuff.

K.C. Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, as I am in bed at this hotel, then the stomach flu part starts, so I'm up for the bathroom. I was sick.

K.C. Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, it was bad. Okay. But I had gotten some anti-nausea medicine, things were under control, my fever was gone. I just felt terrible, but it was doable.

Okay, so I get up at 3:00, I'm taking a shower. I get out of the shower, I'm feeling like, okay, I can do this, I can do this. Do all my skin care, you know, which for some of us, the older we get, it's like seven layers of stuff. And so anyway -- but when I am about to speak, when I'm going to be on stage, I always do this skin tightener under my eyes, on my chin. And it's this really cool stuff, K.C.

K.C. Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, it works. It's expensive, but it works. And so you put it under your eyes, you put it under your chin. And I think I put on way too much, because I was probably overcompensating because of how loose everything else was inside my body. So anyway -- but the thing about the skin tightener is it kind of has this chalky finish. Okay? So, like, your skin is very tight, it looks good, but it's kind of this chalky finish, which is no big deal because you put makeup on it, over it.

Okay. I leave the bathroom, go to my suitcase. And I go to pull out my makeup, you know, put on my makeup, and I can't find it. And so I'm digging deeply; I can't find it. I'm starting to throw out jeans and yoga pants and socks, and where's my makeup? I can't find it anywhere. I'm starting to panic.

K.C. Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: So our office is downstairs in our home. So I call my office and I say to Gretchen, who's working that day, "Hey, can you run up to my bathroom and tell me, is there a black quilted makeup bag on my sink?" She runs upstairs and she goes, "Oh, no, I hope not." I'm like, "Me too." And it was there.

K.C. Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: I had no makeup. Okay. So I am about to go on stage.

K.C. Wright: Oh, you sure are.

Jennifer Rothschild: I have no makeup.

K.C. Wright: You don't feel good.

Jennifer Rothschild: None. I don't feel good. And I look like somebody has put a death plaster mask on my face because of all the white skin tightener. And I got to leave in 30 minutes.

K.C. Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm like, "Phil, we got to go get makeup." So we go to Walgreens. We rush into Walgreens. I've got 20 minutes at this point. And I didn't even remember I didn't feel good at this point because of adrenaline, right?

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so walk in, this lady named Rose says, "Can I help you?" I'm like, "Yes. I need everything. Like, I left all my makeup and I've got to be somewhere in 30 minutes and I got to have makeup on." She goes, "Okay. Well, what color?" Okay. And so, by the way, friends, if you don't know this, if you're new, I'm blind. So I've got this cane. So I'm blind, Phil's a professor, and Rose has never met me before. She can't tell what color my skin tone is because it's covered with white skin tightener --

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- trying to find me foundation. I'm like, "Mascara, I need mascara. I need blush." "What color blush do you like?" I said, "I don't even care. You just try to figure it out." Anyway, on and on and on. Within ten minutes, I had full makeup --

K.C. Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I'm leaving the place. And Rose is so sweet. She goes, "So why are you here?" I said, "Well, I'm here for a conference." "Oh." And then she said, "Well, why did you come to Florida for a conference?" as she's checking me out. I said, "Because I'm the speaker." And she said, "Oh," like, "Oh, my gosh."

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway, I walk out with my Walgreens makeup. I get in the car, Phil's speeding to the church. It's like I threw all the makeup up in the air hoping it would land in the right places on my face. But I showed up with decent makeup on --

K.C. Wright: Yes, you did.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- covered all the white skin tightener, spoke that whole weekend. I mean, it was crazy. So if you hear somebody referring to my makeup, that's it.

K.C. Wright: Because you, of course -- I love that about you, you totally tell everybody.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I told everybody. I told everybody the whole story. I didn't tell them about the stomach flu part.

K.C. Wright: What I love about this is the -- Jennifer, you will not be defeated and you will not quit.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, ma'am.

K.C. Wright: And you're always like, hey, if there's a problem, there's a solution.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: Now, I would never go to Walgreens for makeup. That's the part of this story where I'm confused.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, here's why I went to Walgreens. They have absolutely everything you need --

K.C. Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you can get in and out fast. Now, it's not department store makeup, but a lot of it is still very good quality. Dude, I spent $71 in ten minutes --

K.C. Wright: Oh, I'm sure of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- on my face.

K.C. Wright: But I go there for cough drops and Mucinex.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I go there for my Maybelline Great Lash Mascara, and now I found a blush I like.

K.C. Wright: Who knew?

Jennifer Rothschild: Who knew? Rose from Walgreens, she knew.

So we were also, by the way, there at Melbourne Fresh Grounded with Michael O'Brien, and so you're going to hear him ask the first question. So let's introduce these guys.

K.C. Wright: Well, I don't really need to. But just in case you don't know these great people, let me give you some quick intros to Kelly and Michael real quick.

Kelly Minter is an author, Bible teacher, and host of the Cultivate podcast. She's one of our favorite guests on The 4:13, and also one of our favorite guests at Fresh Grounded Faith. She lives in NashVegas, Tennessee.

Then there's Michael O'Brien. He's the former lead singer of New Song and has led worship at Fresh Grounded Faith events for over a decade. He's an amazing singer-songwriter who has had several number one hits you've heard on Christian radio, and has produced six CDs. He lives in Nashville also.

So are you ready? Let's gather together because you're about to hear some good, good laughter and some encouragement for your soul. Let's spill some beans together.

Michael O'Brien: All right, Jennifer, this first one's for you. When did your children first learn that you were blind, and have they ever played pranks on you? I hope not.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I will address that. They -- it's real sweet. Of course, blindness is very abstract for a little person. And so I remember even when Clayton was about three, and I was constantly saying, "Mommy can't see that. Put it in my hands," you know. It was -- he became very alert to just -- not understanding it necessarily, but acting accordingly. So he would put things in my hands for me to feel. I remember one time reading a book with him, he was looking at a book, and he put my hand on the page. It was sweet. But it was about three or four years old when they really started to clue in.

One thing that was so sweet is how intuitive it is, like when -- I remember specifically Connor being a baby in the high chair. And when I would go to feed him, I would literally put the spoon in front of him and he would come toward it. But when Phil would feed him, Phil would put his spoon in the baby food jar and start to bring it, and Connor would just sit there like bring it on. So it's like they just knew. They just knew.

Michael O'Brien: That's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: But playing pranks. So no, they haven't. And I'm just going to say something very honestly to everyone. Don't play pranks on a blind person. It's not kind. It's not funny. I remember one time I was walking with Connor -- he was probably second grade or third grade -- and there was an adult woman in our neighborhood, and as we were walking, I find out later, this adult woman is saying to him, "Shh, shh, shh." And then we get up close and she jumps out in front of me and thinks that's funny. Well, I was particularly ticked off as a mom, like, don't do that to my child, put him in a position, like, which adult do I honor here when you're about to scare my mom and I know it? You know what I mean?

So I guess I would just say to the family of God, it's really not funny, so don't act like it's funny and let's be kind to each other. And the same applies to everything. Like, we don't need to play pranks on each other. It's just not kind. So there you go. Just saying it.

Michael O'Brien: Amen.

Kelly Minter: There we go.

Michael O'Brien: All right, Kelly. How do you do life well as a single woman of God?

Kelly Minter: One person's excited about this. I don't know -- I mean, how do I do life well as a single woman of God, you know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you do do it well.

Kelly Minter: Well, thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whatever that looks like, you do it well.

Kelly Minter: Yeah, I mean, I guess I feel like we're all called to do life well -- right? -- no matter what we are in. But I know what you're asking, and so I will answer that. So it's not always easy. I mean, just be really honest here, I mean, there's some big things that I'm not doing. Right? Okay? There's some big things out there that is not part of my life. And so that's just one of those commitments to Scripture.

You know, you were saying, Michael, earlier that your wife loves God's Word, and I was thinking what does it mean -- I don't know why. The way you said it, it just made -- I thought, what does it mean to love God's Word? And I think to love it is to first know it, right? So you can't love something that you don't know. But then it's to act on it, it's to revere it. And so to be single as a believer in Jesus Christ, as a Christ follower, means a lot of things that are very, very different from what is completely acceptable and natural and normal in our world. Right? I mean, it's just -- that is -- so it's very different. And as a result, that's a sacrifice. But it's also a blessing. Because I have to say that any time we are obedient to the Lord, a lot of times that obedience does require sacrifice, but it also is full of blessing.

And so that's one thing that I think a lot of times -- I never feel like a very good poster child for singleness, because I don't -- it's not a terrible life. You know what I mean? I feel like I should have this off -- like, oh, it's so hard. And I really am so thankful that I've got my brother and his wife and their kids. And I have dear, dear friends, very dear friends and a wonderful community. That doesn't mean that there aren't those times where it's not hard, but it's -- again a little bit alluding to what you talked about, Jennifer, is there is that probably a constant very -- I'm just very aware at how much I need the Lord --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Kelly Minter: -- for just kind of everything.

You know, I did a house renovation last year. And I hate that stuff. Like, that's where I wish I just was like -- had a husband that would handle stuff. But then there are people that are like, "Well, I have a husband and he doesn't handle that stuff," so -- you know.

So I don't know -- to say to do it well is just by the grace of God. And I don't do it perfectly by any stretch, but by the grace of God to be obedient and honoring with the life that you have, and then just enjoy the blessings that he brings as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. Super good, Kelly. Super good.

Michael O'Brien: I will add that I am really good at getting people on the phone and having them come over and fix those things. I'm excellent on the phone.

All right, so this is everybody. Do you have any words of wisdom in how to get our expectations in line with the reality of what Jesus has for us to try to avoid broken expectations?

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let me think about that. I think -- I mentioned last night raising our expectations to the level of grace. And I said that intentionally because -- like, I know somebody who always had this saying -- which sounds so plausible -- "Well, if you expect nothing, then you never get disappointed." Right? But that's not realistic to have low expectations or no expectations in life, because there are certain things that are just reasonable and right. Yet at the same time, even when we have reasonable and right expectations, if they are still not aligned with grace, they can become wrong.

Because none of us are perfect, including us. Life's not going to turn out how we expect. And so I think -- when I say raising your expectations to the level of grace, what that means for me is I determine -- like Paul said, it is by grace that I am what I am. So this is just it. And I'm going to give it my best shot, and my -- I even say to our ministry team, we have excellence as a standard, but not perfection. And sometimes we get them confused. So raising our expectation to the level of grace is recognizing that we are fallen, we're all giving our best. Most of the time, not always. But even when we're not giving our best, we can still expect grace. And so, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at with it.

Michael O'Brien: I would say, too, one of the most misquoted Scriptures, I think, in the Word is Philippians 4:13, I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Michael O'Brien: The context is, as Paul has already said, I've learned to be content with very little and I've learned to be content with much. So whatever the Lord decides. And I think what happens is when we don't get what we want and we start that complaining thing, then we're basically saying God is not good, when we know that God is good all the time. So it's not like he's trying to hold something from you. And so I think that's why that Scripture, you know, when you know it in context, it can minister to the heart. Because wherever you're placed in life, whether you're single or you're married -- when you're married, troubles will come. The Bible says you're going to have trouble in marriage, right? But to be content and to know that God is always working through those things, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: That's a really good answer.

Kelly Minter: I don't think I have anything particularly to add. I think that you guys summed it up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Summed it up.

Kelly Minter: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: All right, question for any of you. What are some ideas that have worked for you when you are feeling far away or disconnected from God?

Kelly Minter: I felt like you had a really good answer for that, Jennifer, back a few months ago.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course, I would not remember it.

Kelly Minter: Yeah. Do you want me to prompt you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, go ahead.

Kelly Minter: I can give you mine, too, but I -- no, when you were just talking about the dark time that you were in, and just some of the books that you were reading and stuff, I thought that was really helpful. It's helpful for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well -- so I went through a season where I really did struggle with depression. And I couldn't even read Scripture. I mean, I wanted to, but, like, I just had this inner dismantling. And the Lord -- I said -- even though I was struggling with my belief, I remember saying to him, "Would you just give me somebody smarter than me that I can just trust," you know, just to help me kind of --anyway, that's how the Lord led me to C. S. Lewis.

And I remember reading those books, and it did bring me to a place of recognition of, okay, if he's got an IQ twice mine, and he can believe, then I can. And it was funny how the Lord did use that to draw me back to belief.

But I will say this. The nature of that question is -- I remember hearing the word "feel" in it. And sometimes we don't feel all the right ways we want to feel, but that doesn't mean that the right realities don't still exist. So when we feel like God is not near, it doesn't mean he's absent. I mean, dude, I can tell you that with blindness. I'm right here. I could feel -- if I'd just let my feelings take over, I could feel totally alone at this table because I don't see either of them. That is not reality. And so there is a remarkable need, I am convinced, for us to constantly align ourselves with our truth rather than our feelings. Let our feelings obey truth, not the other way around.

Kelly Minter: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: But what were you thinking?

Kelly Minter: The ebbs and flows are -- I'm glad you pulled out that word "feel," because our feelings do ebb and flow. So I think just on a practical level, if we're feeling like -- if we feel far away from the Lord, we should do a little inventory. Like you talked about, the four legs of the table. So, like, is something really off emotionally, spiritually, physically, whatever that needs to look like, and so assess. But if you feel like, no, you know what, I'm obedient, I'm doing what I feel like I'm supposed to be doing, I'm just -- this is a really hard time, my -- what I like to do is just keep it simple and go do -- if you can, go do what ministers to you.

So when I am having those days or those seasons, that might mean I go and I take a walk, or I get out in my garden, or I go do the Trader Joe's aisle at the holidays, you know, or whatever. Or I clean something out of my -- just whatever it is that ministers to your soul. I put on a message of someone that I really love listening to, or I put on music. It doesn't even have to be Christian music. Just something that just lightens your soul, and then just practicing the presence of the Lord with you in that. And sometimes that's helpful for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's very practical.

How about you, Michael?

Michael O'Brien: Well, I'm just going to defer to my wife because she is --

Jennifer Rothschild: Smarter than you?

Michael O'Brien: No. She's bipolar. So, boom, ups, manics, low, low. And I remember when she was going through biblical therapy, she's like, you know, you don't want to go and start reading Lamentations when you're in a pit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Michael O'Brien: And so she was having a difficult time just feeling close to God. And she was going back to the things like -- just simple children things, Jesus loves me, this I know. And then she was having a hard time with even believing that, and the counselor looked at her and said, "That's okay, I believe for you." "I believe for you." And was trying to just encourage her that your feelings are not always going to line up because you can get -- well, women can be very emotional -- so can men, but not as much as women, but -- no offense, ladies. But the reality is that, and you have to keep on -- and I guess my response to even this is a lot of times as men, I have to go -- for me, it's the Word. If I don't go to the Word every day and I'm not meditating on it, then how in the world am I going to be able to love my wife as Christ loved the Church, and having cleansed her, washing her in the water with the Word? I have to have a love for her -- well, Christ first, but then for her to love her in that way.

So a lot of times, you know, when you are married, that's one of the advantages, that you have somebody loving you that way. However, you know, there -- you're single because God has you single right now. And praise God for that. And so it's inspiring to me to even hear that. Because I've been in situations where somebody was single -- and I'm not naming names or anything -- but she was a very mean person about her singleness. So it is amazing to me to meet people who are fulfilled and have struggles, but -- so anyway, just encouraging you.

Kelly Minter: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. All right. So this is to me. This is funny. This is so funny. This is to me. Okay. Did I say that already? Okay. What name brand of drum machine or effects does Michael use as a backup when playing keyboard?

Kelly Minter: That's somebody serious.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, 'cause you're --

Kelly Minter: This is a serious musician out there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: So it's an iPad. And I have gone in and I've taken the keyboard out of it, out of the track. So they have these people that --

Kelly Minter: You can't do on your iPad, right? You have to engineer do that.

Michael O'Brien: No. You have to have a thing where you go in -- it's Appleton, I think is what -- that's not it. It's another name. But you go in and then you take what you don't want out of the track, and then you put it on your iPad and you hit the button. And that's my band.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you do it very smoothly.

Michael O'Brien: That's my band.

Jennifer Rothschild: But let me just say this, because you are a one-man band. So -- I forgot what song it was this morning, but you were doing it and I was like -- when you were on the keyboard, I'm like, he sounds like Bruce Hornsby. Did you notice that?

Kelly Minter: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You do several Bruce Hornsby licks. Which I'm just saying --

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, I do --

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that's quite the compliment.

Michael O'Brien: I do steal from people, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it's so good, Michael.

Michael O'Brien: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love it. I just love it. I couldn't be that coordinated up there, that's all I'm saying.

Michael O'Brien: I've just been doing, I guess, this a long time.

And then they ask also another musician question: What mic does he use?

Kelly Minter: The Shure?

Michael O'Brien: A Shure Beta. And by the way, if I sound good, it has nothing to do with me. It has to do with that sound guy back there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kelly Minter: There we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well done.

Michael O'Brien: All right. So this lady, whoever she is, she's got three questions for three different people. So, Kelly -- I'm just going to say them out loud -- why have you never married? Michael, why did you leave Newsong? Jennifer, do you think it would be harder to deal with having sight and then losing it, or never to have had sight at all?

Jennifer Rothschild: Kelly, you were first. Why have you never married?

Kelly Minter: Yeah, thanks, Jennifer. Jennifer's like, "I left this in there for you, I knew you could handle it." I was like, "Well, thank you." Well -- okay. So first of all, it's sort of like the question -- and I get it -- but like it's my choice. Like, it's fully 1,000 percent my choice, I have just decided I am not getting married. No. I have not met that one person that I have fallen in love with and wanted to spend the rest of my life with. So that's probably a pretty... I mean, I don't know if that's --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's the answer.

Kelly Minter: Is that -- do I need to do something else?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. If he's to be, he will come along and you will know.

Kelly Minter: Yes. Yes. So, yeah, that's it, that's the answer.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it, 'cause it's --

Michael O'Brien: It's a great answer.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- the right answer.

Michael O'Brien: My answer is -- I kind of shared a little earlier. But I was on the road 250 days out of a year. And you can't have a spiritually healthy family when the man is gone, the father and the husband is gone that many days out of the year. And also I thought I was -- it's so weird how God will, like, give you a little carrot to dangle in front of you and then you start munching on that carrot before it actually even comes to pass. And I thought I had a record deal with Columbia Records, and then Warner Brothers, to do the love song record. And then after I left Newsong, which I thought was going to be how I was going to support, God just went hmm-mm and he took it away. And then it was like, okay, what am I doing here? And it was because God wanted me out of the group, and that's how he got me out. A false security of thinking that I was going to be in the secular world, which would have just been so stupid for me. So anyway, that's what happened.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm grateful for us for what God did.

Michael O'Brien: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So grateful.

Michael O'Brien: Do you remember yours?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I remember it enough. Would I -- which would be harder, having seen and then not seen and been born blind. I only know one thing. I know what I've experienced, and that was that I could see well until I was 15 and then I did not. So I would say that the best choice is the one I got. But I am mindful -- you know, Elizabeth Barrett Browning wrote, "Tis better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all." I kind of think that's probably true about my sight. But I also believe that grace is -- God's grace is sufficient for all. So if it had been different, then I would probably give that as my first best answer.

Michael O'Brien: That's good. Yeah.

Kelly Minter: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: Can I do that quick quote, Fanny Crosby?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: She was -- well, I guess she was born blind -- or one day and then she was blind. And somebody asked her about it and she said, "It seemed intended by the blessed providence of God that I should be blind my entire life, and I thank him for the dispensation. For if I had been given earthly sight, I may have been distracted by the beautiful things around me and not sung hymns to the praise of our God." She then says, "If I had a choice, I would choose to remain blind, for the first face that I will ever see when I die is Christ Jesus, my Lord." That's beautiful.

Kelly Minter: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Beautiful.

Michael O'Brien: So, Jennifer, when you lost your sight, how did your parents help you through this difficult time? Mostly spiritually.

Jennifer Rothschild: How did my parents help me. Well, they -- if I -- gosh, I've never really articulated it. But I think they were very faith forward. Like, we didn't spend a lot of time mulling over our loss. It was much more about -- I mean, there was honest feelings and honest dealing with it, but it was more like, okay, so how do we do this next? What do we do next? How do we move forward?

And spiritually, I don't remember anyone ever sitting me down and having a conversation. Which I think is super important for us as parents to understand. I more observed them. I observed their faith, I observed their hope. I observed how they handled frustration, I observed -- and I think I just -- I didn't have all that in my emotional spiritual warehouse to draw from personally -- I was 15 -- so I copied them. You know, you've heard that saying it's super important what is caught, even more than what is taught? And I think I caught all the right things from the way they handled this spiritually, and it informed the way I responded spiritually.

Michael O'Brien: That's good.

Have there been -- Jennifer, have there been times you've had doubts in your faith?

Jennifer Rothschild: What Kelly had asked me about, that I alluded to a minute ago, was a time I had doubts in my faith. Let me rephrase that. I don't know that I had doubts in my faith. I think I had doubts in myself. Because when I look back at it and I'm able to really process it, I was really struggling with endogenous depression. Like, when menopause met blindness, none of my brain chemistry worked right. It was a bad scene. And I really did experience some chemical depression.

And during that time with this dismantling, yes, I doubted God. I ended up doubting the reality of Jesus. Then I knew, well, no, I'd read enough to know he was a historical figure. So then it was the deity of Christ I wasn't sure about, then it was God's mere existence. I mean, it was ridiculous. It was a dismantling. And I thought it was doubting my faith. But when I looked back, what it really was was doubting what I knew to be true. There's a difference. Because even I prayed like the prayer of the guy in the New Testament, "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief." I really did say that.

And so I think that doubt is a part of our processing, but I think sometimes we simplify it. That when I sat down on this chair, I never doubted it would hold me up. Right? And so I think that we just need to -- when it comes to doubt, we need to experience it and recognize that -- like, when I approached this chair, if I felt a little doubt, it would be probably more in my trust that the chair would hold me up, not that the chair would hold me up. See, there's a difference.

And so if you're experiencing doubt, I think it's okay to say, you know what, my doubt really is in my ability to trust right now more than it is what I really know to be true, which is God is real, he loves me, Jesus died for me, and I'm going to be okay.

K.C. Wright: That is the truth. God is real and he loves you. Everything that matters to you matters to him right now. Jesus died for you and you will be okay. Those were some sizzling beans you spilled today and I loved this conversation so much.

If you want to read a transcript of this, go to the Show Notes now at 413podcast.com/248. And while you're there, my friend, you'll find links to Michael O'Brien's music and Kelly's books and Bible studies, plus her music, too. The girl can sing and teach. Sounds like you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, Kelly does it great.

K.C. Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, our people. Find some people for you to spill the beans with, too, because we need each other. So until next week, remember that whatever you face and however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: And I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And --

K.C. Wright: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: That means you can too.

K.C. Wright: It's true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

K.C. Wright: This broadcast was not brought to you by Walgreens.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it should have been.

K.C. Wright: But peradventure, they're listening and they would like to sponsor --

Jennifer Rothschild: Walgreens, thank you.

K.C. Wright: -- the 4:13 Podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Big shout-out to Rose in Melbourne, Florida.

K.C. Wright: Who knew Walgreens sold makeup? Not this guy.

Jennifer Rothschild: But now you know.

K.C. Wright: Okay.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Kelly Minter at Fresh Grounded Faith College Station, TX [Episode 239]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need. If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. Covid 19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. You know, we can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name.

So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's time for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on The 413.

Oh, these are some fantastic beans that we are spilling today. This was captured live in College Station, Texas, at a Fresh Grounded Faith conference with Bible teacher Kelly Minter and singer-songwriter Michael O'Brien. You are about to hear what fiction vacations are and how my husband, Phil, proposed to me. Kelly Minter is going to share the unlikely Bible character she most relates to, plus we give some advice for moms of teenage sons. And I share the hardest thing about blindness, and I can guarantee you it is not what you expect. So get ready for what will turn out to be one of your favorite 4:13 podcasts. K.C., here we come.

K.C. Wright: Here we go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, would you welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey there, people. We're so glad you are back with us this week. It just means a lot to us that you are a part of our 4:13 family. I'm Jennifer and I'm here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. We say it often around here, it's two friends, one topic --

Jennifer and K.C.: Zero stress.

K.C. Wright: That's my favorite part.

Jennifer Rothschild: Except, really, I don't think it applies, well, here today, because it's lots of friends with several topics.

K.C. Wright: Yeah. But it's still zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, yes.

K.C. Wright: One thing that is so fun about this Fresh Grounded Faith you did in College Station is that Joseph O'Brien joined you there to lead worship. Now, if you guys don't know who he is, he is Michael O'Brien's son. But what made America know him was that he was on America's Got Talent. And you may remember him. I do. He was the singer-songwriter who had never kissed a girl.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. I love that. And, you know, he has handled his life, his ministry so well. He's now signed with --is it called Gotee Records, TobyMac?

K.C. Wright: Yes, Gotee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. So he is with him, so you'll have to check him out. But what a wonderful young man. It gave me such hope about the future of platform ministry when I got to be with Joseph. Not just his skill and talent, but more importantly even, his heart off stage was just as beautiful as what he expressed on stage. It was a really great event, and you're going to get a great taste of it as we sat around the Bistro table.

Now, you won't hear from Joseph, so you need to check him out on Spotify and online and in all the places, but you're going to get to hear from Kelly Minter and Michael O'Brien.

K.C. Wright: Well, even though Kelly and Michael are already 4:13ers, let me give their official intros, just in case you just joined us and you haven't heard from them yet.

Kelly Minter is an author, Bible teacher, and podcaster. Her most recent Bible study from Lifeway Publishers is called "Ruth: Loss, Love & Legacy." Kelly speaks around the country and also works closely with Justice & Mercy International in the Amazon jungles of Brazil. Kelly is the host of the Cultivate Podcast and a frequent guest at Fresh Grounded Faith. Now, when she's not writing, traveling, or speaking, she enjoys time in her garden, cooking, and being an auntie to her adorable nieces and nephews.

Michael O'Brien is the man.

Jennifer Rothschild: The man.

K.C. Wright: He spent years as the lead singer for Newsong and has been an important part of Fresh Grounded Faith events for over a decade. His concerts range from an upbeat message of praise, to sharing his heart about his own failures and his past that he's worked through with God, and has a powerful testimony --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, he does.

K.C. Wright: -- on how the Gospel changed everything for him. Michael has had several number one hits and has produced six CDs, including the most recent project release, "Crown Him." He lives with his wife, Heidi -- they're a beautiful couple -- on a farm with some fainting goats in Tennessee. I've always wanted some of my own. They make me laugh so much. They just randomly fall over.

Jennifer Rothschild: They do.

K.C. Wright: And I do that several times a day.

Pull up a chair. There's room at the Bistro for you. Let's go.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, Jennifer, for you, first one. How did Phil propose to you?

Kelly Minter: Ooh, I don't know this story.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Most people don't. We dated -- were in college together, Palm Beach Atlantic University. We dated my freshman year, his sophomore year. Then we broke up for two years. And then -- I won't go into that story. It is a good story. Well, okay. He kissed his old girlfriend. But I'm not going to go into that story.

Michael O'Brien: Wah, wah, wah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway --

Kelly Minter: It is called Spill the Beans.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is called Spill the Beans. Those are some sizzling hot beans. Anyway...

But then my senior year -- which he had graduated and he was working at the university -- we started dating again. So we dated for that entire year. And I remember it was Valentine's Day, and in his little apartment he had set up this little beautiful dinner. I'm like, the ring's coming. And the ring didn't come.

And then the next month, he said, "Let's go out on this dinner cruise." We were on the intercoastal waterway in Palm Beach. And so we get on this boat, we're going down the intercoastal. And we get right to this point on the intercoastal across from the place where our first kiss was. Okay, it had been a vacant lot, but since that time a building was built on that lot and it was called Philip's Point. No kidding. So when the boat got right next to Philip's Point, he got down on one knee and he handed me a ring and asked if I would marry him. And then -- he did not plan this, but it was the coolest thing -- the band on the boat starts (singing) start spreading the news.

Kelly Minter: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I said yes.

Kelly Minter: That's great.

Michael O'Brien: Well, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I still say yes every day.

Kelly Minter: Oh, that's awesome. I love that.

Michael O'Brien: That was very sweet, Jennifer. Phil, good job, buddy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he did a good job.

Kelly Minter: Way to go, Phil.

Michael O'Brien: Kelly, this is just for you. Is there a person from the Bible you feel you can truly identify with?

Kelly Minter: Yes. There's so many. Okay, I'm going to -- do I say the real answer or the second real answer?

Jennifer Rothschild: Say the first real answer.

Kelly Minter: Okay, so I -- so don't -- okay, I'm going to tell you the name in just a second. But don't feel like I'm trying to be woe is me martyr -- okay? -- because I'm not. But maybe Leah. Okay? But here's why. And I could have done this talk last night, or this -- I just love that passage. But where it says that the Lord saw that she was not loved and he opened up her womb. Now, I don't mean that I'm an unloved woman. I don't mean it that way at all. But I just love her story, that she struggled with the rejection, she struggled with the singleness, she struggled.

And you go all the way back into the very beginning of Genesis -- I mean, we're not even -- at that point, we're not even to all the major -- I mean, we're in the patriarchs, but I think we haven't even gotten to the Promised Land or anything like that, and it says that God saw one unloved woman. Which really just makes me know -- the reason I identify with her is because she just -- God saw her pain. So I kind of look at it as like the Lord sees the pain when we are single. Or when we have been rejected or when we feel like we're on the outside or we feel like there's a void, God sees it.

But what's cool about that story is that in the very end, you think, well, wait, why did God open up her womb? That wasn't her problem. Her problem was that Jacob didn't love her and hadn't chosen her. But when you get to the end of the story, you realize that God was answering her story, because even though Jacob would never love her or choose her, God opened her womb, she ends up having Judah, which is through whom the Christ, the Messiah, will come. And so even though Jacob had not chosen her, God had chosen her.

So that to me is probably -- like, if I'm going to be real honest, she's probably one that I'm like, that's pretty cool. She didn't necessarily get what culture and what we want exactly in the way that culture says it should be or that we should think it should be, but God had chosen her and then did this incredible work in her life, but it was in such a way that it was so different.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love everything about that. I'm so glad you shared that.

Michael O'Brien: That's great insight.

Kelly Minter: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's excellent insight. I know it resonates with a lot of women here. So thank you.

Kelly Minter: You are welcome.

Michael O'Brien: And men.

Jennifer Rothschild: And men. That's right.

Michael O'Brien: This is for me. Did you ever play with Amy Grant? No. Thanks for bringing up such a painful...

You know what's so weird is that I was doing this event where Amy Grant was singing -- like, I was leading worship at it. It was a big conference. And so I'm standing right -- like, she's ready to go on stage and I'm just kind of standing there going, I know your stuff and everything. I mean, this is like seven years ago, so she's been -- you know. I never talked to her. I just didn't want to be one of those weird people. But, no, I have not. But I guess I shared the same stage.

Jennifer Rothschild: You did. That's -- you shared the stage with Amy Grant.

Michael O'Brien: Okay. Kelly, where are you going to seminary?

Kelly Minter: I'm at Denver Seminary. Which is in Denver, and I'm in Nashville, so I am taking all of my classes online. But they're very interactive, and it's been great. Yeah, I'm getting my masters in biblical and theological studies.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what I was about to ask you, what the degree would be. Okay.

Kelly Minter: Yes. So all Bible and theology, which I absolutely love. But then it's fun to come into the real world. So on Thursday -- Wednesday I was cramming all day for a midterm; Thursday I took it. My head was in all these, like, heady spaces, and then I got to come here and just -- it's like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Breathe.

Kelly Minter: -- oh, yes, there's real life, like, real life. So it's good to merge the two.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes, it is.

Michael O'Brien: I'm just going to say, I took one course because I was going to get my thing in biblical and theological studies. No. It is very, very difficult. Anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I bet.

Michael O'Brien: All right, this is to everybody. Is there such a thing as raising godly teenage boys? Any advice? No. Next question. No, I'm kidding. Go ahead, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, what we saw today with Joseph --

Kelly Minter: Yeah. He's precious.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Kelly Minter: He's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm just saying.

Michael O'Brien: You go ahead. I'll share something. Thanks.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, we have two sons, and I will say they are godly young men. So, yes, there's such thing. But here's the thing, y'all. The goal is not to parent toward a certain outcome. The goal is to be the parent who has a certain heart, and then God takes care of the outcome. You know what I'm saying?

Kelly Minter: That's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: So as a mom, I'm super -- always was -- super careful -- and I'm mindful now as a mom, not to be a hover mother. I want to grow men. And so I never want to emasculate them, I never want -- I don't want them to feel like they have to rescue their mama either. You know what I'm saying? I want to grow men who can stand on their two feet, who can be leaders, godly, kind, shepherding leaders. But I'm not responsible for that outcome. I'm responsible for what I do in the daily, what Phil and I do, and then the Lord takes care of the outcome. So I just say you give your best, you live a pure life before them. You apologize when you're wrong, you treat them like men, expect them to be men, and I believe they will rise to that occasion.

Kelly Minter: That's awesome.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah, I would just add, as a dad, too, I think you have to be really proactive, especially with social media today and all the dangers. It was the same back in the 60s when I was being raised, but different in a sense that -- I mean, there's still an enemy that's wanting to get your children.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Michael O'Brien: And so I don't think we ever stopped praying for them. I also -- always pointing them to the Scriptures, always pointing them to dying to self, which is what we would do for daughters as well. But we don't want to raise grownup baby men.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, we don't.

Michael O'Brien: That's my wife's little --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what I say, too, no grownup baby men.

Michael O'Brien: And so, yeah, they're going to be different -- when you're raising them, especially if you have a father in their life -- which I think it's just as important, if not more important. I heard a statistic -- and I could be wrong on this, Jennifer, so forgive me. But if the father is a believer in Christ, 97 % of the family follows. They've talked about mothers, and it's like 17%. And if the child is, it's 3%. So there's a huge influence that a dad has, on his sons especially, in his family. But it doesn't take away from the mom's role. She is a huge -- I mean, my son loves his mama. So I think there's a well-balanced -- God knew what he was doing when he set up the family. That's all I'm saying, he knew what he was doing when he set up the family.

Jennifer Rothschild: And he is kind if there is a broken family. And if we stay in the community of Christ in the church, he will compensate.

Michael O'Brien: Yes. That's that family that we were talking about.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is the family.

And I will say one last thing about this. So our kids were never -- never were and never have been, never will be perfect, of course. And we went through a hard spell with one of them when he was 13, and Phil was especially concerned about it. And we were at the Focus On The Family campus, Shirley and James Dobson, and they had a teenage son about the same age as ours. And it was just a gift from the Lord. Shirley comes right over to Phil and talked just a little -- he must have given some clue -- and she said, "Listen, I just want you to know. Do not assume the child they are at 13 is who the adult they will be at 23."

Kelly Minter: That's a good word.

Jennifer Rothschild: It gave him hope. And it's a good word.

Michael O'Brien: That is a good word.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is a good word.

Kelly Minter: That's good.

Michael O'Brien: We're all just little sinners, aren't we? Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're all just little sinners, yes, we are.

Michael O'Brien: Michael, you have goats? That's correct. Why no chickens? Because I don't want to deal with chickens. Why would I want to do that? Chick-fil-A is the place I need to go if I want to deal with chickens.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right. That's where you get your chickens, at Chick-fil-A. That's funny that they asked. I love that.

Michael O'Brien: That is a funny question.

Okay, Jennifer, how do you remember everything without visual prompts? Great question.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, like I said last night, I think visually. So I do have some visual prompts in my head if I can keep my head clear. And so like when I'm paying attention to keeping a message in my head to present, I do one thing uniformly for every presentation I do. I have a ladder in my head. You know the ladder, Michael? You tried to remember that word last night?

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. Hey, there's that word again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Rung after rung after rung, yeah.

My ladder has three rungs, which means I'm only going to pretty much make three points. They're going to most of the time be obvious. But I don't think most people have the absorption rate for a five-rung ladder, so I do three. But underneath the first rung of the ladder is anything I'm going to use as an introduction kind of. I have some pictures of it.

Then the first rung of the ladder, I literally will write Isaiah 6:1 on top of that in my mind's eye. And then on top of that, I have a picture of King Uzziah. I have his crown, I've got a throne, because you remember the Scripture I shared with you this morning in Isaiah 6:1. And then I'll have the train of the robe.

And if you notice when I'm talking, I literally -- I do talk with my hands, but there's a reason. I will say, "and he was highly exalted," and I'm going up. And then the train of his robe fills the temple. Because literally in my mind, I am tracing all those pictures I drew in my head. And so I shape the air with my hand, tend to, just because it helps me see those pictures in my head well.

So that's how I do it. I stack things on my ladder, I give visuals to them. And I will do, you know, pneumonic devices, little hints. Like, I know that Isaiah 6:3 is, "Holy, holy, holy," the seraphims are calling to each other. Why? Because verse 3, there's three holies. So I do little things like that to help keep me oriented so I don't get lost.

Kelly Minter: That's awesome.

Michael O'Brien: That's amazing.

Kelly Minter: It really is, yeah.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah. I've heard you say that so many different times, and I'm still amazed at how you do it. And also, when I look at you, I don't even -- it's like I don't even think you look blind. I know that sounds weird. Because you look over at me when you're talking or something --

Jennifer Rothschild: The Holy Spirit knows who I need to, like, help convict. He's like, "Michael, look to Michael, Jennifer." That's what it is.

Kelly Minter: That's funny. She's, like, never looked at me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I've never looked at Kelly. I'm just saying.

Kelly Minter: No pruning over here.

Michael O'Brien: Okay. This is for all three of us. There's a serious question and there's a fun question. So the serious question is -- and I'm not going to answer this one -- What is your best advice for young single Christian women? For those of us who are single or for those we disciple? And then the second question is, What's the best chocolate?

Kelly Minter: That's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, let's wait for the second. Kelly, I just feel like because you are single at this stage of life, what would your advice be?

Kelly Minter: Yes. So for me, I have to -- I always have to preface this. The answer to this question is that I am actually a very, very content single person. Now, that doesn't mean that that's always been the case. I mean, it ebbs and flows. Singleness is like anything, it ebbs and flows. Some days you're so happy when all of the people around you, like, their marriages are falling apart or they're so mad at their husband or -- and you're like, okay, wow, there are worse things than being single. There really are. You could be trapped in a bad -- you know, or whatever.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Kelly Minter: But then there are those times where it -- because I am one of those believers, I think marriage is absolutely fantastic and there's no replacement for it. There are different paths. There's not a substitute for being married, there's not a substitute for having children. There are other things that the Lord does that are also not substitutes for -- you know, they're not substitutes for one another; they're different. But I will say that I do feel very content. And as I talked about last night, the idea of productivity and fruit bearing and production, that's not just for married people. So if you actually trace the fruit bearing, it actually starts in Genesis with, "Go bear children." That's how that -- you know, bear fruit means to have --

Jennifer Rothschild: Be fruitful.

Kelly Minter: "Be fruitful" means to have physical children. That's how it starts in Genesis.

But by the time you get to the New Testament, it is totally different. It's all about kingdom fruit. It includes physical children, but it is not exclusive to that. So that means that my life -- there is still a call on my life. And there is a call on all the single people's lives, or the people who are married that are struggling, or the people who are married that don't have children but want them. There is a call for all of us because he has chosen us. He's appointed us to go and bear much fruit that will last.

So in a lot of respects, like, I have a very -- God has blessed me with a very full life. In fact, sometimes it's almost, like, too much where I'm like, oh, my goodness, like, my parents really need me tonight, and then I've got my nieces and nephews and I want to run to their baseball game, but I also need -- I have a test, but I'm heading out to this event. And so I actually have a hard time at this stage in my life being able to even decide what things are the best things to do, which is a blessing. That's a gift. It's not always been like that.

But a few years ago my brother and his wife moved to Nashville, and they came with Will and Lily. Will is 11, Lily -- I'm sorry, Will and Harper. Will is 11, Harper is 10, and then Lily was born in Tennessee. She's 5 now. So we got her from scratch, is what I like to say. And they're over all the time, and I love being an aunt. They spend the night at my house, we do things. I absolutely love it. And then when I stop loving it, they just go home. It's incredible. I mean, I stuff them in car seats and drive them right back to my brother and his wife. So the Lord is giving me a lot of influence.

So I guess to encourage the single people here, there's no question in my mind that the full life, the abundant life, there's nowhere in Scripture where it says that the abundant life is caught up in a husband or in a wife or in children or in grandchildren. The abundant life is caught up in Jesus. Now, it doesn't mean that those aren't incredible gifts that should be sought after. They are good gifts, and we don't want the culture that we live in to diminish those good gifts. And at the same time, if those aren't the gifts that you have right now, Jesus is the ultimate gift, and he tangibly -- he tangibly gives us good things, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Beautiful answer.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. I love it.

Michael O'Brien: Back to the more frivolous of the chocolate.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, and now to chocolate.

Michael O'Brien: Go ahead. Yes, Jennifer, what do you think?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, affordable or non-affordable, I'm going to go with a newly affordable Godiva dark chocolate. You can get it at Walgreens, you can get it at Target. It looks like it's a bar -- okay? -- one of those thin long bars like Lindt chocolate, but when you open it up, it's like eight little skinny bars. They look like Kit Kats and they're little pieces of dark chocolate. They're so good. I'm just saying.

Michael O'Brien: All right. Back to Kelly.

Kelly Minter: I mean, there's nothing comparable to Trader Joe's peanut butter -- dark chocolate peanut butter cups.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I agree.

Kelly Minter: I have a stash in my refrigerator at all times. And I'm very gracious with my nieces and nephews. But the other day, I saw Harper in the fridge just reaching into my stash of --

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh.

Kelly Minter: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's not good.

Kelly Minter: It's like, "Harper, listen, you're going to have to have a talk with your aunt." So, yeah, the dark chocolate covered peanut butter cups from Trader Joe's. If you don't have a Trader Joe's, I am so sorry for where you live.

Jennifer Rothschild: Then you'll just have to buy the Godiva dark because everybody's got a Walgreens.

Kelly Minter: There we go. There we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: What about you, Michael, are you a chocolate man?

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm just going to have to say something that's going to be shocking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

Michael O'Brien: First of all, I don't like dark chocolate. But I do love white chocolate, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not even chocolate.

Michael O'Brien: Okay, would you please --

Jennifer Rothschild: It's not the same. It's not chocolate.

Michael O'Brien: You're right, it's not white or chocolate --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Michael O'Brien: -- but it's good and I'm going with it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Michael O'Brien: All right, Jennifer, what's the hardest part about dealing with your kindness? Oh, your blindness.

Kelly Minter: Michael, I am going to take your job over. I'm about to take it over.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's very funny.

Kelly Minter: It's the handwriting, isn't it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Kindness, blindness. Well, some days kindness is harder than blindness. It just depends on the situation.

Okay, what is the hardest thing about dealing with my blindness? Oh, y'all, sometimes it depends on the day. You know, I just get tired. I get tired. There's nothing more draining than blindness. I mean -- well, it's the only thing I know, so maybe there is something. But for me, it is very draining. And I think it's because my brain never gets to shut down. I've got too much going on in it all the time. And then you combine that with traveling a lot and keep trying to remember things, so that's probably this season the hardest things, the hardest thing.

Then the other hardest thing has nothing to do with what I can see or can't see. The other hardest thing probably has to do with managing the emotions that come with blindness. It could be extreme frustration, it could be a lack of contentment, it could be despair, it depends. But often it's the emotions that go with blindness that are probably the hardest things to learn and manage. But the Lord gives grace for all of it. He gives grace for all of it.

And I guess the last thing I'd say about that is I don't go through blindness and manage it with an expectation that I'm going to figure it out and it's going to get better. I just don't. I look at it as if God has allowed it, it's going to be hard, so it can either enslave me and take me down or I can learn to walk with it in such a way that it actually serves me and strengthens me and it becomes an ally. And so that's kind of how I've chosen to do life with blindness, and it helps me manage the hard parts.

Kelly Minter: Can I ask a question? Is this allowed? In relation to that, what is rest for you? And maybe it's the same thing for -- but I would imagine it would look a little bit different.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah, rest -- I mean, this is a tough subject for me because I don't sleep well. And part of that is blindness. You know, your body doesn't get to register the difference between sunlight and darkness, and it is an illusion that a blind person can take melatonin and go right to sleep. That's just not how it is. So I get the endogenous issue of sleeplessness anyway. Then I have the issue of the brain that doesn't shut down. Because literally, when I fall asleep -- you know, I usually wake up right before REM usually hits in -- and literally my mind, it's like all the windows in my computer open up. You are in your bed, the bathroom is to your left. On your right is the exit door. I mean, so my brain constantly reconfiguring my locations. Okay, so then you get that.

So for me -- so I'm leading to this odd answer. When I said earlier that I take fiction vacations, in a very odd way that is rest for me. So I will literally go sit on the back deck and just silence myself. And I listen to Scripture and all. But I got to be honest, when I get into Scripture, I will get totally focused and study and learn and wonder what the Hebrew is, I have to take a mental vacation. And so I will listen to a fiction book, and I will go across the world to wherever that is, and in a weird way, it's rest for me.

Kelly Minter: No, that's -- totally, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It really is. So physically I rest, my mind rests, my emotions rest, my spirit rests. And I do believe that helps strengthen me. So it is -- you're right, it looks different. But that's a way that I've learned to rest.

Michael O'Brien: I'm learning more -- one of the first times I've even thought about sleep for you because of -- you don't get the light and the dark.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Michael O'Brien: That is -- wow. I've always said that Jennifer sees more clearly than most sighted people that I know, so -- but, wow, that's incredible.

All right. Does your wife -- oh, this is for me. Does your wife ever travel with you to events? Sometimes she does. She lives with chronic pain. She has an incurable disease that gives her pain 24/7, so traveling just accentuates that, so she doesn't do it a lot. But sometimes when she's really missing me, she will come with me, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: She's an incredible lady.

Michael O'Brien: She's obviously not here, so she's not missing me that -- no.

Jennifer Rothschild: But she really is an incredible woman, she really is. Talk about somebody who knows the Word and lives the Word, Heidi does.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

So this is the last question. It says, "Tell a funny thing that has happened to you."

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, tell a funny thing that's happened to you. Michael, let's let you go first so Kelly can think.

Kelly Minter: I know, I got to think.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can think of a couple if you need help.

Michael O'Brien: So I have one. I was, about two years ago, asked to go sing at this place called The Rusty Bucket. It's kind of an indoor-outdoor thing in the middle of a really broken downtown of this little town that nobody lived in. And this guy was trying to do this, so I did it as a favor and I drove out there. Everything was fine. The sound system was fine. And I got my sound check, and he came over and he brought a T shirt to me and said, "Hey, would you mind wearing this tonight?" And so I said, "Sure." It said, "I'm An Artist That's Sung at Rusty Bucket." It was something that simple.

And so I put the shirt on. I was in jeans. No, I was in shorts, but they did not match the shirt now. And my wife lives in my head. And so I thought, well, nobody's here, I'm just going to go -- I was parked in an alley. I mean, it's a dead town. So I went and I had it all set up. It was going to be a quick change. And long story short, I finally did the look to the right, look to the left, yanked the pants, got my shorts, started lifting them up, looked to my right. A grandmother, her daughter, and her daughter -- so three generations -- literally were walking around the corner as I had my pants -- okay? And then it was like it hit them and they started walking backwards a little bit. Come to find out, it was the promoter's wife, their daughter, and their granddaughter, and I had to have lunch with them. And the granddaughter, who was 16, never looked in my eyes. Not once. So there you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can understand why that's a little awkward, Michael.

Michael O'Brien: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's funny.

Kelly Minter: Oh, that is funny. I'm trying to think. I'm sure that there have been a million things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, think of embarrassing. Has something -- because, like, Michael's is not only funny, it's funny to us, but embarrassing.

Kelly Minter: Yeah, I know. I feel like I've got a lot of those, too.

Well, this happened a long time ago, but it was one of those ones where you're like, if anybody ever asks you this question, now you have the answer for the rest of your life. But I was actually out on tour, and it was about 15 minutes -- it was very cold, it was -- Halloween, was the day. I was out with Sonicflood. And it was right before I was opening up, probably 10 minutes before showtime. And I was looking for my guitar backstage and I got confused, which is -- I'm very directionally challenged. So I thought I was on the left side of the stage in the back, but I was on the right side. And so I was like, Where's my guitar? Why isn't it not here? And I start walking across the stage, and it's pitch black because it's backstage and it's pitch, pitch black, and all of a sudden I step and I start sinking and having this really weird feeling. And all of a sudden I'm in water and I have fallen into a covered baptismal that was full. And I had a wool sweater on, leather boots, jeans, the whole thing, and I'm, like, completely covered.

And then I pull myself out, I come around the corner and there's the radio station that is there to interview me, like, after. And I'm soaking wet and I have to perform in, like, five or ten minutes or something like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

Kelly Minter: Trying to find your stuff in a tour bus, you know, is not easy.

So then from there on out, the guys in the Sonicflood band, every time we went to a church, they had a big sign that said "Kelly Minter Baptismal" on all the doors, so just like -- it was like a thing that carried on in every single city.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's awesome.

Kelly Minter: And I called a friend at the time and she goes, "Well, if anybody ever asks you what your most embarrassing story is, you now have it for the rest of your life."

Jennifer Rothschild: Now you have it.

Kelly Minter: So, yes, there you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh. Well, I've had a couple -- I will say this -- that it reminds me of this. This was, gosh, 10 years ago-ish. Do you remember -- Robert Schuller was on the Hour of Power --

Michael O'Brien: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- right? Okay.

Kelly Minter: I'm just going to say, that was before my time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Oh, yes. I'm sorry. Me and Michael.

Kelly Minter: I'm just going to use that --

Michael O'Brien: Gramps over there, we know about this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So Robert Schuller had this show called The Hour of Power, it was at the Crystal Cathedral. And I had been invited to do several things at their church, and they were super kind to me. And Dr. Schuller is a very dignified man. Okay? And his wife, very dignified. I mean, just the whole thing, very -- dignity. That should be the word we all need to keep in mind for what I'm about to tell you.

So after one of the sessions, he invited me and my travel assistant to come up to the top of this beautiful tower, have dinner or lunch with Mr. and Mrs. Schuller and some of the other pastoral staff. Dignified, dignified. Crystal, china, cloth napkins, lovely. Dr. Schuller is sitting where Kelly is, to my right, and Mrs. is where Michael is. Well, somebody, who I wish I could remember who it is because I would like to say, "Why did you ask me that question?" Whoever this was sitting over to my left starts to ask me a similar question than we just answered -- asked and answered, "How do you remember your messages?" Okay. So I start to answer this question.

Well, you know how when you're in a group, you're kind of always listening to other people? Well, evidently they all want to know the answer, so it gets really quiet, just in time for me to have explained -- I have just said, "Well, if you noticed" -- you know, I talked about the importance of faith, and then I dealt a little bit with fear, and da da da, and I'm going on and giving my points. And then I said, "So if you notice, I just literally said the F word four times." And they're all silent. And then it dawns on me, I meant four words that start with F. I said, "Four words that start with F. Dr. Schuller, I did not say the F word." Anyway, he finally laughed and I felt so much better.

K.C. Wright: I say this every time, this is why I love Fresh Grounded Faith. And I know you do too. In fact, if you have ever been to a Fresh Grounded Faith and you haven't left us a podcast review, would you care to leave us a review --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, please.

K.C. Wright: -- and tell us if you've been to a Fresh Grounded Faith and where it was. We would absolutely love to know that. And if you want to attend one, you can go now to freshgroundedfaith.com to find out where Jennifer will be.

And let me just say one more thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

K.C. Wright: On the Show Notes at 413 podcast.com/239, we will have all the links to Michael O'Brien's music and Kelly's Bible studies and music too. So everything you need is right there on those Show Notes. 413podcast.com/239.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. Listen, y'all, you need Kelly's books, Bible studies, and Michael's music. It will make your life better, because both those people, they just bless me so much. So get with your friends and spill some beans. Your life will be richer when you do.

All right, our people. So until next week, remember that whatever you face and however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

K.C. Wright: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that is a wrap.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Angela Thomas Pharr and Meredith Andrews at Fresh Grounded Faith Hattiesburg, MS [Episode 232]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. I want you to meet somebody. She's my precious girl that I sponsor through Compassion International. She's a little girl from Ecuador, who has no dad, but she has a Heavenly Father who is meeting her every need.

If you're like me, you can feel overwhelmed with all the needs of the world. COVID-19 has affected all of us, but it has devastated those who already live in poverty. We can't do everything, but we can do one thing, and that's what Compassion International allows us to do. It's a one-on-one relationship with a child who needs you, and it releases children from poverty in Jesus' name. So go to 413podcast.com/Compassion to meet my precious girl from Ecuador. And while you're there, I invite you, I challenge you, and I encourage you to sponsor a child along with me. That's 413podcast.com/Compassion. And now it's time for some practical encouragement and some biblical wisdom on the 4:13.

We are coming to you live from a Fresh Grounded Faith in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and we are spilling some beans with Author Angela Thomas-Pharr and singer-songwriter Meredith Andrews. Angela is going to talk about being a single mom of five kids and what it was like for her new husband to become an instant dad. She also gives her best advice for single moms, and it's not what you may think. Meredith is going to share her songwriting technique and how to know if you are living out God's purpose for your life.

And then finally, I'm going to tell you how I craft and memorize teaching messages. Plus, I'll spill the beans about the shade of my lipstick and how to endure when you feel stuck. Oh, my friends, this is all the stuff we need to know. So pull up your chair for the bistro table and let's spill some beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, our friends. That was K.C. Wright, my seeing eye guy, and I'm Jennifer. And my goal, along with K.C., is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. There's a lot we deal with in life, but there is nothing more powerful than our God, and it is Christ in you who empowers you, enables you, and equips you to be and to do.

K.C. Wright: Come on. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So there's your encouragement for the day.

But we are heading to Hattiesburg, Mississippi, together, because this was from a Fresh Grounded Faith event. And if you don't know what those are, Fresh Grounded Faith are my conferences that I do all around the country. We call them kingdom- minded conferences. And it's just a bunch of women gathering together for Bible teaching, connecting with God's Word and with each other. It's a refreshing experience. And if you want to learn more, you can go to freshgroundedfaith.com, or you can go straight to our show notes where you'll find a lot of other good things at 413podcast.com/232.

But I will give you a heads-up. All right? In just a couple weeks, February 24, we will be in Jackson, Mississippi. That's where Fresh Grounded Faith will be. And I've got some Southern women sipping their sweet tea right now who are close to Jackson. Listen, girls, you need to come see us because Lysa TerKeurst will be with me --

K.C. Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- at Fresh Grounded Faith Jackson.

K.C. Wright: Oh, man.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, so go to those show notes at 413podcast.com slash -- whatever I said. What, 234? I can't remember. You can't either.

K.C. Wright: It's 232.

Jennifer Rothschild: 232. Thank you.

K.C. Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or you can go to freshgroundedfaith.com.

But today you are going to love pulling up a chair to the Bistro 'cause it's going to give you a great taste of Fresh Grounded Faith and you're going to hear some good stuff from Angela and Meredith.

K.C. Wright: (Singing) I'm going to Jackson. I'm going to get there soon. I'm sorry. You know me. Everything's a song.

Jennifer Rothschild: Everything's a song.

K.C. Wright: All right, let me introduce these ladies.

Meredith grew up in Wilson, North Carolina, where she started singing when she was only six years old. She attended Liberty University, and following graduation she became a worship leader at the 12,000-member Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago. She gained a national platform as a recording artist with Word Records, and in 2011 she won two Dove awards for "As Long As It Takes." Meredith is married to Jacob, and they have three adorable children --

Jennifer Rothschild: Adorable.

K.C. Wright: -- adorable --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

K.C. Wright: -- Maverick, Remington, and Little Frankie.

Jennifer Rothschild: She's so cute.

K.C. Wright: Angela Thomas-Pharr is the best-selling author of numerous books, including "Do You Think I'm Beautiful?" and "My Single Mom Life." She's a gifted teacher, storyteller, speaking to thousands each year. Angela teaches and transparently shares life experiences that draw her and others into a deeper passion of knowing God. She graduated from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and Dallas Theological Seminary. Angela has filmed and written four video studies with LifeWay, including "When Wallflowers Dance." She lives in North Carolina with her husband, Scott.

All right, I'm ready.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm ready.

K.C. Wright: Let's spill the beans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Spill the beans.

K.C. Wright: Here we go.

Meredith Andrews: Jennifer, this first question is for you. It says, "Thanks. You are amazing. What color lipstick do you wear?"

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Ooh, it changed my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right? Okay, I got to tell you this.

Meredith Andrews: Show them where you put it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's in my storage units. It's down here in my desk. I have my cane in here. Earlier in the message I had my phone in there too. But I have my lipstick. I know it's Clinique. I've worn the same color --

Meredith Andrews: Let me look at it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Who has the best eyes? Meredith?

Meredith Andrews: She's got glasses, so she can probably see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Shy. 37 is Shy.

Jennifer Rothschild: S-h-y?

Angela Thomas-Pharr: S-h-y.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I'm not. My lips are not. Okay, yeah, it's Clinique, and I love it --

Angela Thomas-Pharr: It's beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and it stays on.

Meredith Andrews: It is so pretty.

Okay, next question. "Do you ever bring K.C. to your Fresh Grounded Faith conferences?"

Jennifer Rothschild: K.C. is my seeing eye guy on the 4:13 Podcast. And when we do one in our hometown, in Springfield, Missouri, K.C. is a part of it. Otherwise, no. I bring my main guy. Not my seeing, my main guy, my boyfriend, Phil. But, yeah, I -- I wish K.C. could come to these things. That's why you have to come to us on the 4:13 Podcast.

Meredith Andrews: Awesome.

Angela, how did your husband adapt to being an instant father to four?

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Well, that's a great perceptive question, because we didn't have to adjust at all. He said he had always wanted a family, and, ooh, he got a family. What fun, he got a family. But I didn't -- I thought, well, he doesn't -- how could he know about teenagers and preschoolers or pre-teens? Pre-teens. I keep saying preschool, but they act the same.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, they do. It's not a big difference some days.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: But Scott's heart was ready. And he had been a big brother in the Big Brother/Little Brother program for 27 years. And in that program, you commit to spend four or five hours a week with your little brother. And so he had taken these little eight, nine, ten-year-olds. And he would always let them invite a friend to whatever they did. So for 27 years he had been hanging out with little kids and God just made him ready.

Jennifer Rothschild: He prepared him.

Meredith Andrews: That's so awesome.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Of course, he does still ask sometimes if the marriage license -- I think it's valid, you know. He said, "You think they filed that?" I'm like, "Look, you're stuck."

Meredith Andrews: Okay. This is a question for me. It says, "What is your songwriting process like?" Well, it looks different. It's not the same every time. I would say that when I first started writing songs, I was writing only by myself, because that's all I knew to do. And I was just basically -- I would write journal entries and then I would put music to them. That was when I first started. I mean, my first song, I was 12 years old, it had six verses and no chorus. I guess I thought I was a modern-day hymn writer, you know? But you got to start somewhere, and that's how you grow.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

Meredith Andrews: But when I was in college, I started writing with other people. And by the time -- well, my first album is actually -- my first album on my record label is actually the only album that I have out that has three songs that I wrote by myself. The rest are co-writes. And then from then on, everything else is a co-write. Because I so enjoy the collaboration process. I so enjoy getting to be in the room with other people and hearing their story and what they're walking through and...

So usually now what it looks like is I schedule a co-write with people that I love to write with, people that I know, people that I don't know. And we sit down in a room and we just get to know each other, and we talk about life and what's going on in life and what God's saying and what God's doing. And it's crazy how a song comes out of that more often than not.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you go into it with a -- I'm feeling like I want to write a song about such and such?

Meredith Andrews: Sometimes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Meredith Andrews: But, yeah, there will be certain writes where I go in and I just say, "This has really been on my heart," or -- even just from listening to you guys talk -- Jacob has written a full-blown song today just from listening to y'all. He won't let me hear it yet. I think he's still working on it. But, like, he's a songwriter-songwriter. I'm not as -- he is, like, truly creative.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, he's a technician too.

Meredith Andrews: Yes, absolutely. But I get inspired by messages too, by hearing other people relay their stories or talk about what God has said or the way that they interpret Scripture, and walking us through that. So a lot of times I will go in with an idea and say what if we -- and for me, a lot of times it's just a phrase, or it's a thought, or this overarching idea. Every now and again it will be --

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Do you have a little book and you're like, gotta put that --

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Like a songwriting book?

Meredith Andrews: Well, I have notes in my phone. I have notes in my phone. I'll just type out, like, sentences or like a --

Angela Thomas-Pharr: More like a play book?

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Meredith Andrews: That's kind of -- I mean, I could go on and on, but that's just kind of the gist of how songwriting happens.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's inspiring.

Meredith Andrews: Yes. But I do love writing with other people. It's really fun.

Okay. Jennifer, how do you memorize everything you say?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I -- out of necessity, by the way. You know, you've heard the old saying necessity is the mother of invention. And it is. I spend a lot of time -- I get a global thought first. I make sure I really totally understand the global concept that I'm going to communicate before I start memorizing. I don't just memorize for the sake of memorizing.

So once I'm really secure that I understand the global understanding of what I want to communicate, then I will actually create visuals. Which is strange for a blind woman. But I create visuals for remembering and memorizing. Which I learned later, Cicero did the same thing. I mean, it's like a thing.

And when it comes to specifically teaching, I will create a ladder. So I have a ladder that I create in my own mind. Usually it has three rungs, because I'm usually only doing about three points. And underneath the first rung of the ladder, I know what I'm going to share as the opening, and I usually tuck under there the opening Scripture, the thesis thought for me. Like this morning you may have noticed I said, you know "Live faithful." And I said, "What is faithfulness?" It's long obedience. So I literally have this path that has the words "long obedience in the same direction." So you might have noticed when I say the phrase, I literally will do "loooong obedience," because I'm following the path I'm seeing in my head.

And then the first rung will be the first point, you know, that God repairs broken things. And then on top of that, I put a broken balloon. And then in the middle of that, I put Ezekiel looking at some bones and a broken wall. And then I end it with Trip holding Legos in my mind's eye. And so all those things trigger me to go to the next thing, and so that's how I do that.

And then Scripture memory, I memorize between the punctuations. I memorize phrases between punctuations and I just listen to them over and over and over and over and over and over and repeat them. That's about it.

Meredith Andrews: That's so amazing. That's about it. Oh, my goodness.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: It's a lot.

Meredith Andrews: It's so incredible. Jennifer. You're a genius.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I don't know if I'm genius. Like I said, it's necessary. We become what we need to be.

Meredith Andrews: Sure. And it's the Holy Spirit through you too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

Meredith Andrews: That's so evident. That's so evident, the Holy Spirit speaking through you when you speak. And it's amazing. My kids are amazed by you. They're just in awe.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm personally amazed by Frankie. And both your boys are so kind and gentlemen, by the way. When Frankie sang today, that was beautiful, Meredith.

Meredith Andrews: Well, thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It really was.

Meredith Andrews: Praise God. Thank you.

All right. This question says, "How can you endure when you feel stuck in a deep place of deep hurt?"

Jennifer Rothschild: We've talked a lot about endurance this weekend. I thought that was an interesting theme from all three of us. So let's be practical. Meredith, how do you endure? Angela, how do you endure?

Angela Thomas-Pharr: I know that some people need to sit with their pain and process, think, write, and that is a little bit a part of it for me. But the way I'm put together, that can begin to feel like it's choking me, like -- yeah. And so I have learned to go outside --

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: -- and pick up sticks -- I've never had time for gardening or all that kind of thing before. I called them frivolous flowers. But what I found out is that God restores me moving shovels of dirt or pulling weeds. And if I just pull two or three, there's something about the way God ministers to me in nature and in the outdoors and in the wind, and it takes my mind off sitting in that pain. And a lot of times the Holy Spirit gives a clarity and he gives, like a lift. And what Meredith sang about in that last song, what you talked about is that lift to see above it. And I try to picture myself, am I standing underneath this with it just weighing on me or, Lord, will you help me get to the rock that's a little higher so I can see over this.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: And that for me is a perspective changer. I mean, there are a million ways staying -- I mean, God has healed me and is healing me, but he didn't do that when I was alone in my room sucking my thumb. That was grieving. And it is right and natural and it is exactly on par for what God has wired us to do when we are hurt and we're in pain, we're traumatized. But my healing has come in community with people who just -- not one of them had the answer, but they stood beside me in my pain and helped me walk to that place where God wanted to carry me to.

I remember one day calling my friend -- and she lives in Texas -- and I was just talking about my pain and how awful and -- you know when you go on, and he done, and she done, all that stuff you do. And she didn't know what to say, but she said exactly the right thing. She said, "I hate the devil." And I'm like, "I hate him too." And that's all I needed, was somebody to hate the devil with me.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: The body and the mind, sometimes we tend to go to an alone place. If you can force yourself out of that.

Meredith Andrews: Yes. I really like what you --

Jennifer Rothschild: God will make physicality of what you're describing --

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because I think that's a -- I think that's a game changer.

What about you, Meredith?

Meredith Andrews: Yeah, I agree. I absolutely concur with all of that.

I can think back to times in my life where it was one of those days where it's like I really don't want to get out of bed. There's no point. There's no point. I don't have the energy; I don't have the motivation. I'm hurting too much to get out of bed in this situation. How do I put one foot in front of the other in this situation? How do I choose to believe that God is not finished with me, that he's going to actually turn this pain around and use it for good? Because the enemy wants to keep us isolated. He wants to keep us in that place of feeling stuck. But God is always -- he's wanting to move us from glory to glory. He is our glory and the lifter of our head. And so if we can just see him as such and remember that we are a daughter. I am a daughter. Okay, so start there. As a daughter of the Most High God, what does that mean for me? What does that look like for me? How do I act as a daughter of the King? And start there and just see where God takes you. Maybe just go for a walk and just be like, "I'm a daughter. I'm a daughter."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Meredith Andrews: And God has a purpose. He doesn't cause our pain. He is not the catalyst or the cause of our pain. But he takes what the enemy meant for evil and he uses it for good. And I just -- this is the thing that I could, like -- I believe this for you, whoever you are, that God -- he has a way through this where you will look back and you will say, I didn't see how I could get out of this deep, dark place, but God. But look what God did. And he wants to bring you out.

And everything Angela said. Grief has its place, and it's necessary. I think especially for us women in the south, we want to just be like, "No, we're fine. It's fine. We're fine," and then we deal with it in secret. But that's not how we're meant to. We are meant to bring it to, confess our sins, confess our stuff to one another, not isolate, and really just get to this place where, okay, I'm going to have the season of grief, I'm going to deal with my disappointment. God is actually going to sit with me in it and then he's going to say, "All right, baby girl, let's go."

Jennifer Rothschild: It's time.

Meredith Andrews: It's time to move forward.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: I want to jump in. One more thing. If you can do something for somebody else, it will help you.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: And the Lord has taught me this, not because I actually thought of doing something for somebody else. But I remember going to the grocery store one day, and I was just -- because I had to feed people. You know, I'm going in, not because I'm wanting -- I'm in pain. I'm just hurrying. And then an older lady needed me to help her do something. I didn't -- she's like, "Honey, could you help me" -- something. And then I ended up helping her get out to her car and put her groceries in the car. Well, y'all, I was better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: The Lord will -- it's -- we'll get to heaven, and I hope that we get the joy of understanding some of how we got made like this. But he made you to be comforted when you're giving -- when you're just helping somebody else, it gives you a comfort. Anyway...

Meredith Andrews: That's so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I think it's good. I love that you both in so many ways said similar things. And I think it's the wisdom asking -- well, first of all, knowing endurance is hard. So sometimes we think if something's hard, then it's wrong. No, endurance is hard. It's not supposed to be easy. That's what it's called endurance.

But you do have to guard yourself, as both of you wisely stated, against staying in the indulgent part of your pain too long. Because if you indulge too long, you will not endure. You become totally self-absorbed, and that's when you don't endure.

Meredith Andrews: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But putting one step in front of the other. I am a real believer in the physicality of this process. Because sometimes, like I said earlier, you got to make your stubborn soul move, and sometimes you got to let your body help that process along, so...

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do that. I walk on my treadmill, because I can't go outside, which can just exacerbate my feelings of frustration.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I will literally get on the treadmill and walk. And I will blast songs about heaven in my earbuds and just remember this ain't all it is.

Meredith Andrews: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: This ain't all it is.

Meredith Andrews: That's so good. Heavenly perspective.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, like you quote.

Meredith Andrews: And just remembering, I'm not a victim; I'm victorious.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Meredith Andrews: Because the enemy wants to get us sucked into that victim mentality. But understanding our position and our daughtership, I am not a victim; I am victorious. This may have happened to me, but God gets the final say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, he does.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: And if you're feeling like that, I would also encourage you not to look at your social media.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah, agree.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Meredith Andrews: Just take some time off.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Book, not the Facebook.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Watch the Andy Griffith show or something.

Jennifer Rothschild: True, though. Happy.

Meredith Andrews: That's true. So true.

All right. Angela, what is your advice to a recent single mom?

Angela Thomas-Pharr: So, in the same vein, some of my best advice was something I finally learned to do, was take a Tylenol PM after you get the kids in bed. And if there's a doctor here that disagrees with that, I'm so sorry.

But what I figured out was that the devil couldn't have me in the morning. I'm getting the kids ready, day's crazy and I'm doing the day. I pick the kids up at school, it's all I can do to get them fed and get them in the bed. Hallelujah, amen. And if the devil was going to get me, it was going to be between about 9:00 and 11:00. Because it was too early to go to bed, I'm too tired to do anything really constructive. And the depth of that loneliness is so great. And when I realized I am just a human being like any other human being, and right here -- if I was going to do something stupid, it'd be between 9:00 and 11:00. Like, that's when people start watching things they don't have any business watching, and that's when you, "Well, I'll talk to that old freak show," because you don't have anybody else to talk to, or you -- like, I realize --

Jennifer Rothschild: That is brilliant.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: -- that I could be stupid.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: I could really make a bad choice most of the time between 9:00 and 11:00. I mean, you got to figure out what it is for you. Yours might be completely different. But I decided it would be better for me to be asleep during those hours, because the devil couldn't have me in the morning.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so practical.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: And so I would take those Tylenol PM for about four or five years, and I'm like, "Listen, y'all, I got nothing to stay up for." Nobody. My neighbor across the street called -- she told me one morning, she goes, "Yeah, we looked out the window, and your house is just dark at 9:00." And she's like, "I guess you took a Tylenol PM." I'm like, "I am over here with all my integrity. Fighting for it. Fighting for it."

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's so practical. I love that advice. And then you're also rested and you can do the day the next morning.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Well, just cut that -- if you got sin hours, cut them out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Cut them out. You don't need to be awake for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. Awesome.

Meredith Andrews: Okay, anything else?

Angela Thomas-Pharr: No. That's good enough.

Meredith Andrews: Great. Good. Okay.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: That'll get you going.

Meredith Andrews: All right. Perfect.

Okay. This question's for all of us. It says, "How do I have a right estimate of myself, and not think too low myself, when I long to be all that I'm just -- when I long to be all that I'm just not? I often dream of being a musician, singing and playing piano and worshiping, or being a speaker to encourage and motivate others, to write a book that touches lives. I want to change and inspire others. I want to have and know a talent. I often feel like there is something inside, but won't come out. How do I accept that I'm just not any of these? I don't believe I" -- help me. "I covet. I'm just sad." Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: She doesn't believe she covets, she's just sad.

Meredith Andrews: Yes. "I'm just sad from time to time in the waiting, hoping to be more than just what I am currently, but at the same time trust in him and not put him or myself in a box. I don't want to have those feelings or" -- sorry -- "or thoughts that I'm not much, but I do. How do I let go and let God?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, sister girl, I would ask you this question. Have you ever heard of Mordecai Ham? If you have, I don't want you to say anything. But just think about that. Now, has anybody in here heard of Mordecai Ham? Don't say who he is, but just say yes if you have. Okay. Only a few of you, though, right? The majority have not. And Mordecai Ham could have easily had a -- you know, not a right estimate of himself, because he could have thought, I don't know how I'm being used by God, I don't know if anybody's going to know my name in 100 years. Am I really having any significant effect?

But if I asked everyone in this room, "Have you heard of Billy Graham?" what would you say? Mordecai Ham was the one who preached the Gospel. Billy Graham heard Mordecai's voice preaching the Gospel, and Billy Graham received Christ, and the world has been different ever since.

And so I would say to you, my sister, having a right estimate of yourself is having a reasonable view of your life. Am I living in obedience? Am I saying yes to every opportunity God gives me? Am I doing what he's called me to do, whether it's on a platform or whether it's in the grocery store? That's having a right estimate of yourself. Not looking at yourself too highly and associating your identity with what you have accomplished; not looking at yourself too lowly and saying, therefore, because I have accomplished nothing, I am nothing. We have a right estimate of ourselves, we base our sense of self on our obedience and on God's value that he places on us, whether anybody ever knows our name or not.

What Angela and Meredith and I do up here is not a reflection of women who are more greatly blessed or capable than you are. It's just the calling God gave us. But it's not any more significant than the calling that you live out in your ordinary life, whether anyone ever hears you lead worship or whether you never write a book. So rightly esteem yourself based on how God esteems you, and couple that with your sense of faithfulness toward him, not on if anybody ever knows your name.

Meredith Andrews: So good, Jennifer.

You know, and those -- I think maybe it's easy to look at people on a platform and just go, wow, it must have just fallen into their laps. I think we can all say -- and you've heard a lot of our stories -- it's cost us something. Not because God's cruel, but because in order to endure, in order to have a story to tell, in order to have a message to sing about, you have to walk through the trenches and you have to be willing to say -- and I have no self-righteousness in saying this at all. It's like, Lord -- there are days when I'm like, "God, why did you ask this of me? I don't know that I can take it. I don't know that I can handle it." And yet God always comes through and he shows himself strong and he shows himself faithful.

And when I was 17 years old, I went to a Rebecca St. James concert and I said, "God, I think I'm supposed to do something like this." It's, like, burning inside of me. And the Lord said, "Meredith, be faithful where I've placed you." And at the time I was leading worship for our youth group, and sometimes on Sunday mornings in our 80-member church. And my life is a testimony of just learning how to be faithful to God as he has been faithful to me. And I haven't always gotten it right. I have not always gotten it right. But he has always been faithful and he has always been merciful to me.

And I think for anybody who has a dream or a desire in your heart, God put it there. And he will outdream you any day. So continue to press into him. Continue to let him make you who you're meant to be. Because your identity isn't tied to what you do. I am a worshipper. I'm not a worship leader; I am a worshipper. But all of us are. You know, he just -- I have a different way that it looks, I guess, for my life, or a different calling on my life. But each of you has a call on your life, and neither one is more or less significant than the other. And it's all about us just going, "God, who do you say that I am? What is the assignment that you have on my life?" Because it's easy to look and see, oh, it's supposed to look like this. No. What has God called you to pioneer? What has God called you to strategize for? What has he called you to lean into, the audience that he's put in front of you? It could just be your kids right now, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Meredith Andrews: And I could keep going on that. But just to be faithful in these places, in these spaces, and then the Lord will open the doors.

Jennifer Rothschild: He does.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Okay, I got to jump in. If God is prompting your heart and you've got that thing, you're like, "I want to do what you do," I'm like, "Girl, come on. We need you. The world needs you."

And when I came home from college, I started working with the youth group at my little United Methodist Church. And there were three kids there when I first started. I didn't know what -- I just said to them what they said back at FCA in college. And so that ran out after about a year. But I was so thirsty for more, I went to my parents and said, "I think I'm supposed to go to seminary." They're like, "What in the world?" And then I -- they said, "Where do you think you want to go?" I'm like, "I don't know. But this man writes these books and on the back it says he went to Dallas Theological Seminary." His name was Chuck Swindoll. So that's where I went, to Dallas Theological Seminary, because I thought they would teach you to teach the Bible like that. Turns out he had a gift.

I got to Dallas Theological Seminary and it was some of the best years of my whole entire life. Because if God is calling you, can I encourage you to get training.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Be a good steward.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Like, learn how to write and -- like, every -- you can do it right from the safety of your bedroom right now online. There's so many great classes. If God is calling you to be a Bible teacher, learn the Bible.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Angela Thomas-Pharr: Like, don't be coming up here telling no jinky-jank in Jesus' name, you know. How to rightly divide this Word that the Lord -- and keep learning how to do that. So if God is calling you, then you -- like, let's go. Let's go. Don't waste his time wondering if he is. If there's something inside of you go, "I could do better than that," then get up and go.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. I love it.

Meredith Andrews: So good. Well, that is such a good word. And that's kind of all we have time for.

K.C. Wright: This is why I love Fresh Grounded Faith. So real, so practical, so honest, and so encouraging. I know the women in my life, they come back changed and rearranged for the glory of God --

Jennifer Rothschild: Rearranged.

K.C. Wright: -- after a Fresh Grounded Faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that too. It's true. And you need to come join us at one near you. As I mentioned before our conversation, you need to find the tour dates at freshgroundedfaith.com or at the show notes at 413podcast.com/232.

K.C. Wright: Yep. And don't miss the chance to connect with God's Word and connect with other women at a Fresh Grounded Faith.

And you can get Angela's book and Bible studies, plus purchase or download Meredith Andrews' music. We will have all the things, all the links to Angela and Meredith at, you guessed it, the show notes at -- let's say it together -- 413podcast.com/232. That's 413podcast.com/232. Good job. All right?

Thanks for hanging out with us here at the 4:13. Our lives truly get better when you show up. And until next week, we love you, and we mean it. And remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and K.C.: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: That was some good stuff today.

K.C. Wright: Good.

Jennifer Rothschild: By the way, have you ever seen Meredith Andrew sing? She's, like, this teeny-weeny little body with this ginormous voice.

K.C. Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, she's a tiny little package with a giant gift, that's what I'm saying.

K.C. Wright: There's some dynamite in there.

Jennifer Rothschild: There is.

4:13 Podcast: Spill the Beans LIVE with Kelly Minter and Meredith Andrews at Fresh Grounded Faith Little Rock, AR [Episode 214]

Jennifer Rothschild: Pack your bags, 4:13ers. We are heading to Little Rock, Arkansas, for a Fresh Grounded Faith conference with author Kelly Minter and singer songwriter Meredith Andrews. We are spilling some sizzling beans today, and the questions from the audience were fantastic. You're going to hear my answer when I was asked if I could see when I dream. Kelly and Meredith also gave great answers about how to deal with silence from God. And then somebody asked even how K.C. and I met. And then Kelly talked about being single in the church, and what that was like, and how to know your purpose. And finally, I cannot wait for you to hear what Meredith Andrews said about my husband, Dr. Phil. I am just saying, this is fun and it's rich and it's meaningful, and we saved you a seat.

So, K.C., let's spill some beans.

K.C. Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host and my soul sister, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hello, our dear people. Welcome back again. I know that some of you are here with us every week, and it means so much to us. So thank you for hanging out and being part of the 4:13 family. I'm Jennifer, here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you live, alongside me and K.C., this "I Can" life.

It's a busy season around here. October, I'm always -- that's the time of the year when I'm traveling every weekend. I call it the season of the three-day week, because I'm only home three days. So K.C. and I jump into the closet and we get to talk to y'all while I'm home, and so we're super grateful.

So what I thought I'd do this week is take you on one of the Fresh Grounded conferences with me. This one, I was in Little Rock, Arkansas. And it was such a good weekend, you guys. And so what happens is we ask the audience to let us know what questions they have, and they jot them down on these little Spill the Bean cards, and then we sit up at the bistro table and we answer these questions. So what you are about to hear is me and Kelly and Meredith at the table.

But I don't know if you know this about Kelly Minter. She is also a singer songwriter. So the weekend was just so beautiful and musical. And Kelly had just sang this old song, and of course she gave it a new spin, "I'd Rather Have Jesus." And it was really beautiful. So after K.C. introduces these ladies, when you hear us begin to speak at the bistro table, you probably need to know that so it'll make sense to you. Kelly had just finished singing "I'd Rather Have Jesus."

So let's introduce them, K.C.

K.C. Wright: Kelly's got some good stuff to say, so let's get to know her right now. Kelly Minter is a singer songwriter and Bible teacher. When she's not on the road speaking, she loves picking homegrown vegetables with her six nieces and nephews or riding a boat along the Amazon River with Justice and Mercy International. She is God's girl for sure. She's written ten books and Bible studies and lives in Nashville.

Meredith Andrews is a Dove award winning Christian artist and worship leader with six albums to her credit. And that doesn't even count her singles and EP's. She's married to Jacob and they've got three kiddos. And like Kelly, she also lives in Nashville.

Now, let's pull up our chairs to the bistro table -- there's room for you -- and join in. Lean in on this great conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: That was so beautiful. I love Kelly's story. I love that song. My daddy, who could not sing -- was the true picture of making a joyful noise -- he loved that song. And he sang it so I could hear his voice.

Phil, did we move the table? Then I'm moving my chair. Sorry. I'm way too far.

Kelly Minter: Jennifer, you gotta get where you want to be.

Jennifer Rothschild: I got to be where I need to be.

Kelly Minter: That's right. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. I feel like I'm in an island over there.

Kelly Minter: No islands.

Jennifer Rothschild: No islands.

Okay. That was just beautiful.

Kelly Minter: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Meredith, beautiful too. What a morning, right? What a morning.

Kelly Minter: I feel like we all need to, like, sing something one of these times.

Meredith Andrews: When you were singing that, I just wasn't singing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Take those.

Kelly Minter: Thank you.

Meredith Andrews: -- because I was just listening. It was so beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was beautiful.

Meredith Andrews: And then Jennifer was harmonizing on the front row, and I was like, "Oh, yes, Lord." It was so sweet.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you don't know this, Meredith, but Kelly and I have been your backup singers all morning.

Kelly Minter: I know, we have been. We've been harmonizing together with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: We have.

Kelly Minter: Yeah, uh-huh. It's awesome, I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we should. It was beautiful. Don't you just love seeing how the body of Christ is woven together as one voice? It's just a beautiful thing.

Y'all asked some really neat questions. Terrie Bitter, our National Conference Director, and I go through the questions. She reads them to me. And I got to say, what an interesting, fun group you are. I want to have coffee with all of you. And that's what Kelly and Meredith are going to think, too, when they see these questions. Y'all asked some really, really good questions. So let's spill some beans.

Meredith Andrews: Okay. Well, I don't know if my mic's working.

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't think it is.

Meredith Andrews: I can talk really loud.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, let's get you working.

Meredith Andrews: It's on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, there she is.

Kelly Minter: There we go.

Meredith Andrews: Hello. Okay. This first question says for Jennifer. "When you dream at night, do you see in vision?"

Jennifer Rothschild: That would suggest that I sleep. I am a very notoriously bad sleeper, so I don't know that I ever get in REM enough to actually dream. But here's the thing, when I do dream, yes, I do see pictures. And I think that's so weird. But I think it's because my brain once saw, so I still think in pictures. What's very interesting, though, I do not see facial features in dreams. Like, I might see a body there and know -- you know, even see what they're wearing, but the facial features are totally blurred, which is interesting.

Kelly Minter: Yeah, it is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, analyze that.

Meredith Andrews: All right. Second question says -- and I guess it's for all of us. "Have you walked through a season of silence from God? How did you keep from getting discouraged?"

Kelly Minter: Well, I -- since you're looking at me, Jennifer --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Go.

Kelly Minter: -- and really staring at me --

Jennifer Rothschild: Waiting for you.

Kelly Minter: No, No. I think all of us go through these seasons. And I'm not 100 percent convinced that the Lord doesn't allow us to go through those seasons so that it will drive us --

Meredith Andrews: Yes.

Kelly Minter: -- closer to His Word. Because the thing is is that the Lord ultimately really doesn't stop speaking to us, because he has spoken through Jesus. And we find that out in Hebrews. So he has spoken through his Son and -- and I know what the question means, though, when we just don't feel him --

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't feel it, yeah.

Kelly Minter: -- we just don't see -- we don't think about -- or we can't sense him in our lives, we don't feel like he's working in our lives. And all of us have been there. But I do think that there's something to be said for being in that season and asking and seeking and knocking and what we learn in those seasons about the Lord, about ourselves. Because if he was always speaking and if we were always hearing super clearly, what would we -- how would we dig down, you know? What would we really -- and I think it's -- in a weird way, it's almost like we get to know him more deeply when he is quieter.

Meredith Andrews: Yes.

Kelly Minter: I don't know.

Meredith Andrews: I agree 100 percent. I think it's almost like a -- it's almost like you graduate to a different place and God is saying, "How much more do you want?" Because there's so much more to be had. Like, he's such a vast, mysterious God, like, we could never find the end of him, you know? So I think when we do walk through those seasons, that's where faith comes in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Kelly Minter: There you go. There you go.

Meredith Andrews: We are meant to walk by faith and not by feeling. And we can't be led by our feelings. They're terrible leaders. I think you even talked about that --

Jennifer Rothschild: They are terrible leaders.

Meredith Andrews: -- Jennifer, you know? They're important, 100 percent, but we can't base what we know on what we feel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Kelly Minter: Right. There you go.

Meredith Andrews: And so we go back to the Word and we -- I think in those moments what I do is I'll remind myself of God's promises and what he's said to me in the past, or I'll go back through my journal and just be like, God, I remember when you said this to me or I remember when you were working in this way in my life, and I remember.

It's kind of like the Old Testament when they would build an altar when God did something. They would put a literal pile of rocks right there to remind them of what God did. Because it's kind of that same thing, like, if he did it before, he'll do it again. And so many times he is just inviting us into this deeper space with him when we get to know him in ways that we haven't before. Yeah.

And I thought about a quote, even as you were talking, Kelly, that -- I heard this before. Pruning is the reward for growth. And I know that that doesn't speak to silence necessarily, but it really is -- that kind of thing is like -- if we're growing, if we're maturing, then we can anticipate there are going to be some things cut out of our lives or there are going to be some things that we walk through that just kind of solidify our dependence upon God.

Kelly Minter: Yeah. That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Refines us.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think it's important -- you know, how can I keep from being discouraged? You can't necessarily. I think that's part of the process. That we feel uncomfortable emotions that perhaps -- seasons where it does not feel silent, we don't hear -- we don't feel those emotions because we keep them at bay.

But I had a crash, is the best way I can call it, seven or eight years ago of depression, and I was, like, totally internally dismantled. To the extent that once I entertained one thought, it led to another. I got to the point of trusting the goodness of God, then trusting the existence of God, then trusting the deity of Christ and trusting -- the whole deal. It just was a dismantling.

I share that with you because I'm not ashamed of that. I wish it hadn't been that way because it was painful. But even in the midst of that dismantling and what felt like silence from God, I still had, like, this vapor of awareness, to the extent that I prayed, Lord, I -- God, it just -- everything feels wrong. I'm having trouble believing everything I believed is real. But I know it is, so help me get back to that.

And literally, the rescue I found came through reading C.S. Lewis' books. Not Scripture initially, because I had so much trouble even processing Scripture. Not because it wasn't good and true, but I just was not in that place. But when I began to read C.S. Lewis, I learned this guy was a million times more bright than I ever could have been. He was an atheist. Then he converted to basically deism and acknowledgment that there is a God, and then came to faith in Christ. And we all know how that impacted him and culture.

And so truly during that season I was like, okay, I'm going to just trust him until I can trust God again. And he became for me this authoritative God. In the discouragement, when God felt silent, God used another person to bring me back to that place, a full, complete, strong, solid faith in Christ, hearing his voice again.

So if you're in that season of discouragement -- even though my ally came from a dead author, there are humans around you who can walk with you through that process. And you need her. You need her.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah. So good.

This question is for Kelly. It says, "How do you deal with always fitting in at church when church is geared towards families or people with children?"

Kelly Minter: Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I totally get that question. So -- that's a hard one. I mean, it is just the reality most places. I was blessed in Nashville to find a church, for the first 15 years that I was there, where the pastor and his wife actually did not have children. So that was kind of a unique thing, and I think it kind of geared them toward being more aware of people who weren't just married with kids. Which is great, and I love that, and I get why church is geared that way, but -- so that kind of attracted people that were more like myself, I think, in certain stages of life.

Now I'm at a church that is, like, massively family oriented. I mean massively. But I am so -- and I don't even want to say but, because I like that. I'm not for that. I love it. But I do have some really dear friends that don't have children or -- you know, just for whatever reason are not married, and I have a really, really rich community. I just have a really rich community. And so I always feel bad in some ways when I get that question, because it's not a pain point for me. Just honestly, it's not. And there's a lot of Sundays that I go to church by myself, and it just doesn't bother me.

Jennifer Rothschild: You don't even notice?

Kelly Minter: It doesn't -- yeah. And I don't know if that's just -- I don't know why that is. But I think if you just have even -- you know, making any kind of connection friendship-wise with marrieds or with singles, it just helps so much. And I would also say that there is a place for you in the local body and that your singleness doesn't need to be a disqualifier, that actually can be -- it can add. And, you know, it's sweet, like -- and this is not a normal -- this is actually not normal for me. But tomorrow night, a couple in our church, they're having, like, five of us over. And we're all really dear friends and we all are single. But it's not weird. It's just like -- but I can tell that they are -- you know, they want us to be over and they want to be with us, and it's natural. And so I appreciate that. And I have a lot of kids in the church that I'm an aunt to.

And so I think if we go into the local body thinking I don't fit, this isn't geared to me, this is so annoying, you know, then, yeah, it's going to be an uphill climb. But if we can go in seeing that we are needed and really just even find some people in the local body, it's such a game changer. I have so many little kids that I just love over there. And so in some ways I wish I could say, yeah, I know how hard it is -- and I don't want to say that it's never been hard -- but I'm really just blessed in my body of life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I think you also said you have made choices, and so have the people in your local family --

Kelly Minter: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that gathers, they've made choices so that there is a sense of belonging.

Kelly Minter: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which to me is always a good thing to be reminded of --

Kelly Minter: Uh-huh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- especially in a family-oriented church.

Kelly Minter: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Meredith Andrews: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'd have you over for dinner tomorrow night.

Kelly Minter: I know. I know, right? I mean, I'm so excited I don't have to cook and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, come on. I know.

Kelly Minter: Well, and that's another thing. I do a lot of stuff at my house, so I cook a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you invite in?

Kelly Minter: Yes. And so that's the other thing, too, I think when you're single, or if you're married without kids and you want kids, or whatever, we can focus on what we don't have and let that be the defining factor, as opposed to like, Hey, I don't have three kids that I've got to get into the bath and all this stuff, so I can cook today and have people over. And so I just think if we can see how it can be a plus is helpful.

Meredith Andrews: That's good. It's a mindset, right? I love this perspective. It's so good.

"Jennifer, was it difficult to take care of your children without your eyesight, and how did you overcome that trial?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Challenging, probably difficult. I'm not sure because it was all I knew. But I would -- when the little guys were toddling around, I would pin jingle bells on their back, on their shirt. That's how I would know where they were. The house was, of course, very childproof, but I was home alone with the babies most of the time. And they just learned -- I was probably one of those mamas who was in my baby's faces a lot. They got a lot of one-on-one attention out of necessity.

Interesting, when they would sit in the high chair and I would go to feed them, I would put the spoon in the baby food jar and I would hold it up and they would come toward it. When Phil would go to feed the children, they'd just sit there and wait for him to put it in their mouth. They learned -- they knew the difference.

So, yeah, there were some challenges, especially when the little guys were little. But the Lord, you know, he compensates. He helps us to grow in whatever situation he's allowed us to be in. And he did for me with the babies.

Meredith Andrews: That's so awesome. I love the jingle bell story.

Kelly Minter: That's so funny.

Meredith Andrews: Okay, this question was to me. It says, "What was the inspiration for your song 'Can Anybody Hear Me'?" Well, first of all, just side note for that song, it's not one that I sang this weekend. It's an older song of mine. I feel like sometimes songwriters write the same song over and over in different iterations of it. And every album, I feel like I have a -- my first album, I had a song called "You're Not Alone." The second one was "Can Anybody Hear me?" My third one was "Not for a Moment." And it's that thought that even if I don't feel God -- it's kind of like what we talked about in the first question -- I know that he's there and I'm going to stand on his promises.

But I remember this song in particular, I was kind of walking through that season and feeling like God was silent. And I was praying and I was in the Word and it just felt like everything's bouncing off the ceiling. And I remember being on tour with Phil Wickham -- this was probably 2008 or '9 -- and I sat down at this church piano in Texas, just in this back room, and I started just playing out this honest prayer, like, can anybody hear me? The silence is deafening. I don't remember the rest of it. Again, it's been a long time.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's been a while, yeah.

Meredith Andrews: And what's just -- side note -- funny about this song is that whenever -- it was a radio song and nobody could ever get the title right. It was like, "And here's Meredith Andrews with 'Is Anybody Listening?'" Or "Does Anybody Know My Name" or -- it's just like all these different -- I'm like, it is what it is.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so funny. That's awesome.

Kelly Minter: That's great.

Meredith Andrews: All right. Next question is for all of us. It says, "I'm having a tough time finding my purpose in life. How did you find your purpose?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, let me bust the myth that purpose is an arrival. I think purpose is a path. Because sometimes it -- it looks different in different seasons. So if you're not, like, living in full-blown sin and selfishness, likely you're living your purpose. Whatever God has put before you to do, whatever you are drawn to or people ask you often to be a part of because it's like your wheelhouse, likely that's your purpose. It doesn't have to be something huge and elaborate that involves a great following or a platform. It's what obedience looks like.

Kelly Minter: That's so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: And don't assume that once you arrive there, it never changes. It can change. It can change. I've always said -- you know, for me in ministry, I started out with music, and then a little bit of speaking, and then writing, and then writing Bible studies, and then teaching. This whole gamut. And I realized you could look at my life and say, well, clearly her purpose was to sing, or her purpose was to write. No. My purpose is to communicate. There's different vehicles by which I do that. And so I think we can take a little pressure off ourselves when it comes to finding our purpose. Like I said, unless you're big in sin and selfishness, you're probably living out your purpose.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah. That's really good.

And you know that verse in Psalms that says, "Delight yourself in the Lord and he'll give you the desires of your heart," I think we sometimes misread that as like, well, if I just do everything God says, then he's going to give me everything I want. It's not that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Meredith Andrews: It's that when we delight ourselves in him, our desires begin to change and we begin to love what he loves and want what he wants, you know, even for our own lives. And he begins to put things in us that we're drawn to, you know, the things that we feel that are life giving for us. I mean, I've struggled with this so much, but I think we really can overcomplicate it and overanalyze it. And it's not about what we do. I think we actually have to get back to, like -- instead of asking the question, like, What am I doing with my life, it really is, like, Who am I becoming? Who am I? What is our identity rooted in? It's not about -- because I think you meet somebody and you go, "Oh, what do you do?" and that kind of defines -- that can define us. Especially in America, it really can define us so deeply sometimes.

But when you strip all that away -- and that's what 2020 was about for me, because I couldn't travel. And I find so much joy in getting to be with women especially and see them encounter God, you know? And so then I was, like, at home, homeschooling. What? And then I'm like, Who am I? Like, What has happened, you know? So it's this midlife crisis. But it was beautiful because it was like the Lord just stripped all that away and -- like, you're not a human doing, you're a human being, and I've called you to be first a daughter, and everything else comes from that.

And then last thing I'll say -- I love this quote. I said it last week. One of my favorite authors and speakers is named Graham Cooke. And he says, "We treat the will of God like a tightrope, but it's actually a wide-open green pasture." I think the closer we get to the Lord, the more we understand his heart and the more we know our purpose on the earth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. That's good.

Kelly Minter: That's great. That's awesome.

Meredith Andrews: All right, next question. It says to Jen. "Have Jennifer and Phil ever had a serious disagreement --

Jennifer Rothschild: Holy cow.

Meredith Andrews: -- and how was it resolved?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Glad we get to bust the myth that we're perfect. Yes, we have disagreements. Sometimes on the way to conferences or on the flight home, especially when we're tired. Oh, my gosh. Yes.

Here's the thing. Phil and I have this unique relationship in that I am always right and he's never wrong. So you put that together and we're both very strong-minded and strong-willed and, yes, sparks fly because of that. But that's okay. We haven't always handled conflict in the most Godly way, absolutely not, but we're learning over the years to do that better. But when you love each other, there's going to be moments like that.

Early on in our marriage, we were really stuck. Went to marriage counseling. Which I highly suggest a Christian counselor. It helped us so very much. And there's still so much we have to constantly learn from the Lord and other married couples who do it better, or at least we think they do it better. By the way, that is the illusion. We get to see -- just like on Instagram, we see everybody's five seconds of perfect. When you see all those people at church and you're like, I wish my husband acted like her husband, trust me, when they're in private, he's not all that. All right? We've all got our stuff. We've all got our stuff and we need to be humble and honest about it.

Meredith Andrews: Amen.

Okay, can I really just -- side note. I've told Lydia this, I told my husband this, and it was so beautiful to me. Last week we were praying before the night session last Friday, and Dr. Phil was praying, and he was kind of praying for Jennifer. And it was -- I mean, I was like -- nobody knew this, but I was, like, bawling at the dinner table because of your humility, and the way that you have given your life to support this woman is so beautiful to me.

Jennifer Rothschild: He has.

Meredith Andrews: I just want to honor you in a room full of women, the way that you serve, Jennifer.

Kelly Minter: That's good, Meredith. Thank you. That's good. That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: He is the real deal. I will say that, he is the real deal. Yes, we can be sparky with each other as a married couple. But he is the real deal, no question.

Kelly Minter: That's sweet.

Meredith Andrews: Well, I just wanted a chance to say that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Thank you.

Meredith Andrews: Yes. And, Jennifer, you couldn't see it, but half the people stood up. They gave him a little standing ovation.

Jennifer Rothschild: What's wrong with the other half of you?

Meredith Andrews: This is a question for Jennifer. It says, "How did you and K.C. meet and when did you start working together?"

Jennifer Rothschild: So I chose to answer this question because of my main guy. Okay. So my 4:13 Podcast -- I have a seeing eye guy on my podcast. His name is K.C. K.C. and I have been friends for 15 years. He's a radio guy. Used to do a lot of morning radio in our town, and I would come in and do radio shows with him. And he said, "Someday if you ever have a podcast" -- I'm like, "I'll never do that." "If you ever have a podcast, I want to be on it."

Well, when the Lord drew me to have this podcast, I wanted to have a seeing eye guy. I did not want it to be my favorite guy, Phil, because we don't need another area where we have to work together and have potential conflict, let's just be honest. We just didn't need that. And he's a busy guy. He's a full-time professor. He doesn't have time. So K.C. and I have done this for years together now, and he is just a delightful friend, who is single, by the way.

Kelly Minter: Hey. All right.

Jennifer Rothschild: He's a really good guy. So that's K.C. Yeah, you'll hear him on the podcast.

Meredith Andrews: Awesome.

Kelly Minter: Cool.

Meredith Andrews: Okay. I can't -- oh, there it is. Thanks, Dr. Phil. Thank you.

Okay. For Kelly, "As a single woman, is there a point where you'd give up hope of marriage? Or how do you continue to hold on to hope when it's still a desire and your life doesn't seem to be moving in that direction?"

Kelly Minter: Yeah, so --

Jennifer Rothschild: I wonder about that too. I do. As a married woman looking into a single woman's life, I wonder about that.

Kelly Minter: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: How do you do that?

Kelly Minter: Well, I think it's different for everybody. And that's the thing that it's just -- everybody has a different story of this. And a lot of times people will come up and they'll be like, Oh, you know, this has been so hard for me. And I will say, it was a lot harder for me in my 20's and into my 30's. It was really hard then. And I don't want to say that it's never hard now. I think there's seasons that you go in and out of the hardness. And you talked about, like, the quasi midlife crisis. I feel like a little bit going through that too where you start to all of a sudden -- because my parents have moved to town, and I'm watching them, and I'm like, oh, like, so how am I going to do this when I'm by my -- like, if I'm by myself?

But the reality is no one has a guarantee of -- nobody has a guarantee that you will all grow old with one another and then die five minutes apart or -- you know, we all -- so I would say -- have I given up hope? No, I don't give up hope because of the Lord, I mean, obviously. But do I think I'm going to get married? I don't. I mean, I'm just going to tell you that, because I just don't think I will at this point, because it just hasn't come close for so long.

So I really have a very full life, and I -- but it didn't always feel that way. So I guess -- that's the hard thing, is, like, I want to be able to really connect with whoever's asking that question, because I get it. I get that life can be lonely. It gets hard to do everything by yourself. I've had this remodel going on, or construction addition, for a year. I hate making the calls to the builders. I wish I had a husband that was like, Are you kidding me? Like, Where is that -- I hate doing that stuff. I don't like having to always deal with my finances or have to stand up for my --

Jennifer Rothschild: Carry the whole load.

Kelly Minter: Carry the whole thing. But then, like, my mom will remind me -- it was my dad who was so sweet. But she's like, "You can be married and Dad's still not going to hang that picture ever," you know. And so -- and I know that about my dad.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is so funny.

Kelly Minter: So it's kind of like --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Kelly Minter: But God has given me -- and I will say this. He has given me community in the body of Christ, and I really do have a family. Like, I really do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you do.

Kelly Minter: I have a family family. When God brought my brother and his wife and the kids, I mean, that was amazing. But I also have friends that are family. And we do go to the Amazon together, we go to Moldova together, we go to trips, we have dinners. I have a home, I have people in my home. I cook. I have a full life. And so I guess I would say this, that -- don't give up hope in having a full life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's a good way to put it.

Kelly Minter: I mean, I don't have hope that I will necessarily be married, but I'm very fulfilled. I'm very fulfilled. Like I said, it wasn't always like that. The first several years in Nashville were very painful while I was trying to find my place and my friends and my community and my church and all of that. But the Lord really is sufficient, and I have found him sufficient in extreme seasons of loneliness and disappointment and stress and depression and anxiety. But I've also found him extremely sufficient in fullness and in rest and in peace. And so I don't think anybody, whether you're married or not, whether you have kids or not, whether you have grandkids or not, no one is meant in the body of Christ to live hopeless and alone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Kelly Minter: That is -- no. So I have full hope for everyone here that no matter your season or status, that in Christ we really are to live fully.

Meredith Andrews: Yeah.

Kelly Minter: And so that is what I would say to that question.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is a good answer.

Meredith Andrews: That's a good answer.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is a good answer.

Meredith Andrews: Awesome.

Okay. Well, we've only got 25 seconds, so what is your favorite kind of dessert, and why?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, we're going to end on a sweet note.

Meredith Andrews: Yes, we are.

Kelly Minter: That's easy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Because you are the cook among us --

Kelly Minter: Well, I don't know about that. But tiramisu. I love tiramisu.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, tiramisu.

Kelly Minter: But you either love it or hate it. There's not really anybody that's like, Oh, yeah, sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's like boiled peanuts, you love them or hate them.

Kelly Minter: Yeah, you get in or you get out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

Kelly Minter: But I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Tiramisu. Okay, what about you?

Meredith Andrews: I mean, I'm such a kid. I love Sour Patch Kids and Funfetti cupcakes.

Kelly Minter: That is awesome.

Meredith Andrews: But I can't even have gluten right now, but I'll eat them anyways if somebody makes them for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's awesome.

Okay. Well, I love dark chocolate on anything. The darker the better. But if I'm really going all out, creme brulee.

Meredith Andrews: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, now the beans are officially spilled. Would you thank these ladies. That was awesome. Thank you, guys. That's great.

K.C. Wright: This is why I personally love Fresh Grounded Faith. And these are some of my favorite podcasts. I mean, my favorite podcasts are when, Jennifer, you have a full teaching. I love Jennifer's teaching, because I'm over here taking notes in the podcast closet. But I love the Spill the Beans because it's so live.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

K.C. Wright: Well, I don't know how it could get anymore live.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

K.C. Wright: You're there, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. Exactly.

K.C. Wright: So if you've never been to a Fresh Grounded Faith, you gotta go. You gotta go. Make it a goal. Put it on the bucket list.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

K.C. Wright: We will have a link to the tour on the show notes right now at 413podcast.com/214.

Jennifer Rothschild: And weren't those women in Little Rock -- you could hear them, the audience. They were awesome. They asked great questions. And Kelly and Meredith, I just thought gave exceptionally insightful and compassionate answers. I always learn a ton from these women I get to partner with in ministry, and I learned a ton from them. I always do.

In fact, y'all, there were two things that Meredith said that I just want to remind you. She said our feelings are terrible leaders. I don't want that just to get past you. Meredith said our feelings are terrible leaders, and she is correct. And then she also said pruning is the reward of growth. And I thought that was such a good point, because you might be feeling the pinch right now. And that is the reward of growth.

So, our people, come join me and my friends at a Fresh Grounded Faith conference near you. And if you can't come, then you need to get with your own people, you need to sit around the bistro, and y'all need to spill some beans, because life is better together.

K.C. Wright: It is definitely better together. Check out their books and their music. You need to hear their voices speaking into your life or --

Jennifer Rothschild: Or singing.

K.C. Wright: -- singing into your life, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

K.C. Wright: We will have links to Kelly's and Meredith's books and music at the show notes right now, 413podcast.com/214.

All right, we're signing off. Leave us a kind review if you have time. And remember, we love you, and we mean it. And whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

K.C. Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: You sure can. All right, K.C.

K.C. Wright: Nobody ever asks me to sing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I'd ask you to sing, but I'd turn off the mic first so no one else could hear it.

K.C. Wright: When I sing, dogs howl, garage doors open by themselves.