4:13 Podcast: Can I Experience Angels in My Life? With Melissa Spoelstra

Melissa Spoelstra: Looking at angels from Genesis to Revelation is so beneficial because it does away with the anti-supernatural bias that I think all of us come by just living in the modern era.

If we look at church history, we see that there was a day when this wasn't the case. But the Enlightenment, the Reformation, some of these good things that happened in our history elevated logic and reason so far up that kind of the -- the mystical thought of angels and demons and this whole other realm just kind of got shoved to the side a little bit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Angels are everywhere in Scripture. They were present in the Garden, and all through the Bible they appear to people with messages, encouragement, and help. Angels ministered to Jesus himself after the temptation and before his crucifixion. And then guess what? They shared the good news of his resurrection.

But even though the Bible showcases who angels are, our impression of angels is often shaped by myths and misconceptions.

Well, that ends today, my friend. Author and Bible teacher Melissa Spoelstra is going to traverse the terrain of Scripture to show you who angels are, what they do, and what they have to do with you. Ooh, there is no reason, my friend, to fear or ignore what's happening in the supernatural, so let's dive in.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, our friends. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And it's just Jennifer and KC, two friends, one topic, zero stress. And our goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life.

And I'm telling you, KC, it's going to be a good topic today. I mean, like, how often do you think about angels?

KC Wright: You know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Or do you? You may. You are my friend who is -- you're my charismatic.

KC Wright: I thank God for angels. I mean, this is going to be a really good podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, to me it is too, because it's not something I think about often, I'll be honest.

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I will tell you this. Okay. I was, gosh, six or seven years old, and we went to a Baptist church growing up. And every Sunday and Wednesday when we'd go to this Baptist church, we would pass a Catholic church. All right. This Catholic church was beautiful -- okay? -- compared to ours.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, it was ornate, it was lovely. I had a friend who went to that Catholic church, and she told me, you know, how the priest would bless them. And she even -- you know, she was a little girl too. She said, "You see all those rocks in the parking lot? Our priests blessed each of those rocks." You know what I mean.

KC Wright: Right, right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it was, like, so woo-oo to me because it was so unfamiliar.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Well -- so every Sunday we're driving by this, and I marvel at this Catholic church and I think it's so mystical and beautiful. And by the way, back then I could see. I didn't lose my sight till I was a teenager.

So there was this sign in the parking lot of the Catholic church, and it said -- I thought it said, "Angel Parking Only." Okay, because I couldn't spell. It actually said, "Angle Parking Only." But I was like, See? Oh my gosh, the Catholics have the market on the supernatural because they have angel parking. Like, that's where the angels would park when they would come to the church.

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like we Baptist, we had deacons. That's all we got. You know, but they got angels. It actually said, "Angle Parking Only."

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I thought it was for the angels.

But here's the funny thing. Like, you know, KC, that was a little girl's just misunderstanding because of spelling.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it is true.

KC Wright: It is true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Angels are there.

KC Wright: Angels are with us.

Jennifer Rothschild: All around us. That's why I literally -- I called up Melissa Spoelstra and I'm like, "We need to talk about this." She wrote a whole Bible study on angels.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: For those of you who have done my Heaven Bible study, what a great follow-up, to deal with angels. Because I did not in my Heaven Bible study -- there was just too much, so I just -- I did not deal with angels. I'm so glad Melissa has.

So if she's new to you -- KC, why don't you introduce Melissa. Well, actually, before you do, she's been on before.

KC Wright: Really?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So you are familiar. It's just been a while, y'all. I know you've slept since then. But she wrote a Bible study on the Gospel of John and we've talked about that. We'll link to that later. But anyway...

All right, introduce Melissa.

KC Wright: Melissa Spoelstra is a speaker, Bible teacher, and author who is passionate about studying God's Word and helping women of all ages to seek Christ and to know him more. Melissa has a degree in Bible theology and she enjoys the author of many Bible studies, including Angels, The Gospel of John, and Isaiah.

All right. This is going to be such a rich, deep conversation. Let's get the conversation going.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's do it.

All right, Melissa, I'm really excited we get to talk about this. Because I told you off mic that I actually called -- I called my producer and I said, "Jackie, you've got to get Melissa on the podcast. I've got to know about this Angels Bible study." So I am so glad we get to talk about it.

And that leads me to my first question. Melissa, why did you decide to write about angels? And once you tell us, then I want to know, you know, like, what it is that you did in the study. But first of all we need to know who angels are. So first of all, why angels? Why'd you write a whole study on it? And then tell us who angels are based on a biblical understanding.

Melissa Spoelstra: So good. So for me, actually about three years ago I was at my father's memorial service, and someone made one of those well-meaning comments, you know, that God needed another angel. And I remember just having a little theological moment in my head going, wait, we don't really think that, do we? And thinking this is probably not the appropriate time to address that.

But then it was like everywhere I turned and looked, podcasts I was listening to or angels represented in shows or media. And what I really realized was that I didn't have a very strong angelology. I myself, you know, didn't know that much or really think about angels that much, and just began to ask the question is it worth having a strong angelology? Does it matter?

And I would just say I think there's a lot of good reasons that -- but the most important thing is that God is Yahweh Sabaoth. It's one of the names used for him in Scripture. Most often it's the Lord of Hosts, or some translations say the Lord of Heaven's Armies.

And so really the benefit in studying angels is to know God more, to know what it means that he is the Lord of Hosts. So I think there's a lot of really good reasons to study it. First of all, it just helps us find hope in realizing how big he is.

The second thing is that it helps us prepare for the future, as you know well in writing a study about Heaven --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- that heaven is going to be loaded with angels.

One of the podcasts that I like to listen to, a guy -- a theologian named Joel Muddamalle. He said God is the king of a two-household family, angels in the supernatural and humans in the natural. And that just kind of blew my mind because I don't think that way. I don't think, you know, that way.

And so as I began -- really the number one reason, then, for writing the study was that as I just was in my Bible after all of this, it was like angels were everywhere. I just kept seeing them in so many, you know, men coming to Abraham in Genesis. And then in the book of Zechariah there's all of these angelic encounters. And even just noticing the prayers in the psalms. And, of course, Revelation is the number one book loaded full of angel references, because angels have a huge part in our future.

So I think that looking at angels from Genesis to Revelation is so beneficial because it does away with the anti-supernatural bias that I think all of us come by just living in the modern era.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: If we look at church history, we see that there was a day when this wasn't the case. But the Enlightenment, the Reformation, some of these good things that happened in our history elevated logic and reason so far up that kind of the -- the mystical thought of angels and demons and this whole other realm just kind of got shoved to the side a little bit.

And so as I think about how I live on a daily basis, I often live by logic and reason. And I know there's God, and I know there's people, because I'm bumping up against them all the time, but I forget about this category, the excluded middle of angels. And there's so much going on in that realm.

Jennifer Rothschild: The unseen.

Melissa Spoelstra: The unseen realm. And I think that's -- that to rediscover that and to think about that will bring us hope, because it will point us to the God who reigns over heaven and earth.

So I'm an acronym girl, for those who know how I like to teach. It just gives me handlebars, it gives me help.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: So I just kind of went and did this deep dive looking at angels from Genesis to Revelation and then kind of said, okay, who are angels? What do they do? And what does that have to do with you and me?

And so I took the word "angels" and said, okay, angels adore God. That's the A. We often find them worshiping God. Certainly in Revelation, but even in Deuteronomy you see the angels worshiping God. Job speaks of the angels, you know, worshiping and singing at the creation --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- of the world.

But the number one thing is the N. Angels notify God's servants. I mean, their name means messenger, right? Malik is the Hebrew word, Angelos is the Greek word, and it means messenger. So often they're bringing a message. And I think we think of that often during the holidays. Easter, Christmas we see them in that role. But they're really doing that throughout Scripture. And the prophets. Angels are revealing things to Daniel. Certainly to Abraham. Just playing that role of giving God's messages to his people, intervening in his life.

But then -- so angels adore God, they notify God's servants. They guard God's boundaries. And we especially see this with cherubim and seraphim, which I -- you know, reading all of these different pages of commentaries, I kind of put them all together in the angelic category. Some would separate out cherubim and seraphim. They're the only angels with wings, right? None of the messenger angels in Scripture ever had wings. And their wings are covered with eyes, which always makes me chuckle because I've never seen any --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's kind of creepy.

Melissa Spoelstra: Yeah. I mean, a nativity play, never seen --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- eyes covering the wings and the little...

So the cherubim especially are known as throne guardians, and we see them in that role. Even that first mention in Genesis, right, what is the cherubim doing? He's guarding the way to the Tree of Life. And we also in the psalms see that God sends angels to guard his people. We see it in Egypt when the -- God's people are fleeing Egypt. There's lots of instances throughout Scripture where angels are in that guardian role. We can talk about guardian angels a little bit later if you want.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I do. I want to circle back. But I want to know the rest of the acronym.

Melissa Spoelstra: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Plus, I always misspell "angel" and spell "angle," so I'm about ready to hear how you're going to spell this.

Melissa Spoelstra: Oh, great, great. I love it. So they adore God, they notify God's servants, they guard God's boundaries. Then it's an E. They enact God's judgment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Enact God's judgment.

Melissa Spoelstra: They enact God's judgment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Melissa Spoelstra: And so we see that 185,000 Assyrian soldiers wiped out. How about the Passover story? The angel of death is passing over. And I think where that has to do with us the most in enacting God's judgment is I think about Jesus talking about how the angels will come at the end of the age to harvest the earth. They will separate the weed from the wheat. And to me, that should motivate us to share the Gospel to go, The harvesters are coming. The angels are coming to harvest the earth.

So they also -- the L is they lead God's people. We see this so many times. My favorite place in Scripture where angels lead God's people is with Elijah, because the angel says, "You need a nap and a snack, Elijah."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Melissa Spoelstra: So I'm like, God, if you want to send an angel to lead me, I would love the way of Elijah, the nap and the snack.

And then the S is that angels serve as God's agents. And I wanted to put that in there. It's kind of a catchall. I love -- Billy Graham has a great book called "Angels: God's Secret Agents," so I stole his terminology and agents.

But I think -- I wanted to be careful not to pigeonhole and say, okay, if angels aren't adoring, or they're not guarding, or they're not enacting judgment, or they're not leading, then it couldn't be an angel. Because you know what I do. Angels -- what I know. Angels can do anything that God tells them to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Melissa Spoelstra: They can stand in front of a donkey if God would want them to, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Melissa Spoelstra: And so they serve as God's agents. They can do anything that God asks them to do, except for probably one thing, which is to die for our sins. Only Jesus. Only Jesus could fill that role.

But those are kind of my angelology handlebars to say this is how God chooses to use angels in his people's lives through his Word.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love it too, Melissa. I love acronyms because, like, we can remember that now.

Melissa Spoelstra: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so you just described who angels are in the Bible, and I love that. And so I want to circle back to the "in the Bible" part for us to talk about their activity today.

But before we do, just to continue to be very clear -- which you were with that acronym -- in your study you also mention that these modern images and uses and portrayals of angels, they kind of distort their true nature. So I want to know what some of the biggest misconceptions are, because sometimes we don't know that we're just accepting a lie as truth until it is exposed. So are there some misconceptions that you've tripped up on as you've studied angels?

Melissa Spoelstra: Well, certainly a lot in terms of appearance. I don't even know that I really knew that angels didn't have wings in the Bible except for the --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, me too.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- cherubim and seraphim. So there's that. Certainly the fat little babies with the wings on the clouds. I don't even really know where the whole idea of a cherub being a baby came from in church history.

I do want to mention the whole guardian angel things, especially from our friends that are from a more orthodox, you know, thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Melissa Spoelstra: I've talked to many women who were like, "I grew up praying to a guardian angel, and this is the guardian angel prayer that I memorized as a child." And I would just, you know, point people to really just to pray to the Lord. And we never are instructed to pray to angels, to worship angels in any way.

And the whole idea of guardian angels, angels do guard. Do you and I have a personal guardian angel? People would point to two passages in the Bible.

They would look at where Jesus is teaching in Matthew 18. And he's talking about greatness, and he's saying the greatest in the kingdom are these children. And he makes this side comment. He says beware because -- don't look down on these little ones because their angels are always before me in heaven. So there's that comment.

There's another one where Peter -- it's an angel story. Peter gets released from prison by an angel. And he kind of thinks he's seeing a vision and he's out on the street and he realizes, wait, I'm out on the street. And so he goes to where the church is gathered, he knocks on the door. And a servant named Rhoda comes and sees it's Peter, and she runs back to tell everyone Peter's out of jail. And they don't believe it, they say, oh, it must be his angel.

So those are both descriptive rather than prescriptive passages. And if we look at the heart of those teachings, I don't think that what the Lord was trying to do there was build a theology of guardian angels. I think those were kind of side notions and interesting things to think about.

But I think in a conversation about angels -- which I think is also true in a conversation about heaven -- is that much has often been built on little.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Melissa Spoelstra: And so we want to be so careful that we don't go any further than the text goes, and to be okay with an "I don't know."

And so is it possible that there are angels before -- and if there are angels going before God on our behalf, I think a better question is what are they saying?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: Melissa needs help with that distraction problem, Lord. You know, like, what are they saying, rather than praying a prayer to a guardian angel or spending a lot of time fixated on the created. Because in this conversation, we never want to trade what is primary for what is peripheral. And what is primary is God.

And knowing something about his angels I believe is important only because God has revealed it. Three hundred mentions in Scripture of angels.

And also to know something about the spiritual battles, the wars going on around.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's what I was going to ask you. I'm glad you brought that up, because I was going to ask you that. What about this war in the heavenlies?

Melissa Spoelstra: Yeah. I mean, we see in the Book of Daniel where, for one thing, that our prayers have such an impact in heaven. And I know I need that reminder just that our prayers are heard and that God acts upon our humble requests. Daniel is confessing his sin, he's praying.

Now, I do think it's interesting that never in Scripture do we see anyone pray and ask God to send an angel. Which that kind of bewildered me just a little bit to think, oh. Because I know when my kids were learning to drive, I was praying angels on the fender and the bumper and, you know, all the way around the car.

What I find in the prayers of the people in the Bible is that they seem less inclined to tell God how to do it. You know, Daniel presented his needs and God decided to send an angel. But as we think about kind of this supernatural battle, we think about passages like Ephesians 6 where we're reminded that our battle is not against flesh and blood enemies, but about -- but against principalities and powers and, you know, all of these evil forces.

And I have had some people be like, oh, I don't know if I want to study that because then I might get more attacked or have more trials. And my response to that is I don't know about you, but for me, welcome to life on a broken planet.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Melissa Spoelstra: There's always attacks. And any time we want to know God better, the enemy would want to distract us.

I just heard N.T. Wright on a podcast. He was asked in our modern day what does he think Satan's biggest tactic is? And he didn't even blink an eye. He just said, "Distraction." It's one of the things he's using with all of us.

And I think for me -- I had a little trepidation going I'm going to spend two years looking through these -- you know, some spiritual warfare passages --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's scary.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- when it comes to angels. But you know what I came back to is greater is he that is in us --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- than he that is in the world. And I know this is something Jen Wilkins said in her Revelation study. She said, you know, this stuff is not meant to scare us, but to prepare us. That we are to be familiar with his schemes so that he will not outsmart us.

And I did want to read, if you don't mind, just from Colossians 2. I love -- I had never seen this passage in this conversation about spiritual warfare. It's where he says, "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ and he forgave all our sins. He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross. In this way, he disarmed the spiritual rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by his victory over them on the cross."

And I just -- oh, that passage just reminds me -- and I hope it reminds all of us that when we're in the battle -- because we are. We are in a spiritual battle. If we could cut the knife away, a knife through the unseen realm, and see what's going on, there is spiritual activity that we can't see, but that we can trust God with these -- this Greek word for spiritual rulers and authorities, it's the same ones from Ephesians 6. And, yes, our battle is not against flesh and blood, it's against these. But they've been disarmed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: And I want to live with that kind of faith, that I have nothing to fear, that the God of peace will soon crush Satan.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Melissa Spoelstra: And so my prayer is that by studying angels and demons, which are fallen angels, it will just bring women hope that their -- that our God, he does, he reigns over heaven and earth, and every problem we have today, and that the victory is ours because of the cross.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nailed to the cross and they have been put to shame. Hallelujah.

Melissa Spoelstra: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Melissa, this is so good. Okay, so let's -- let's tick through a couple of biblical angel basics. So when we're looking in the Bible and we see "angel of the Lord," who's that? Secondly, what is the passage that says he will give his angels charge over you? Do we apply that to all of us? There's your two questions.

Melissa Spoelstra: I love that. The angel of the Lord is such a great conversation. And I had never looked at it so deeply as I did -- as I got to dive into this. So here's what I would say...

Scholars are divided over the identity of the angel of the Lord. But here's what we know. He is different than the other angels for two main reasons. For one, he accepts worship and he forgives sin. And there is an intimacy and an authority about the angel of the Lord unlike any other angel references.

And so there are kind of three quick camps in the identity of the angel of the Lord. Some think it is Yahweh himself taking on angel form. Others would say he is the preincarnate Christ, kind of taking that question to say was Christ more active in the Old Testament than we ever imagined? And others would say he's just a regular old angel that God empowered in that way.

And so I tend to take the second view. I'm a see Jesus everywhere kind of a person, which was kind of fun to look at. But within conservative scholarship, it's really about 50/50. So it's -- people on both sides of it, on all sides of it can be people who genuinely love Jesus and love Scripture and just see it differently.

But I think the bigger question for us is not who is it exactly, but to just see the messages the angel of the Lord gives. It's the angel of the Lord who met Hagar, who said, "I am the God who sees you." That was the angel of the Lord. And those pronouns go back and forth between the Lord and the angel of the Lord.

One of the reasons I would probably see it as Jesus is -- in the New Testament, you know how Jesus was God and was with God?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: That's kind of the same type of language we find in the Old Testament surrounding the angel of the Lord, where he seems to be God, but also distinct from God, and that seems very reminiscent to the language of the New Testament. So, yeah. So those are --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. That's good. Okay.

Melissa Spoelstra: -- those are my thoughts on the angel of the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, he will give his angels charge over you. Who's he talking to?

Melissa Spoelstra: Well, we know that Satan -- that's the passage. That's what, Psalm 91, I believe? And that's the passage that Satan tried to rip out of context and throw at Jesus like, hey, jump off, because he will give his angels charge over you. I think that's a psalm, that's a prayer that we can pray. I believe that God can guard us with his angels any time he wants.

I think it's so fascinating that Satan would use an angel passage on Jesus. And we know right after that happened, who came and ministered to Jesus?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It was angels.

Melissa Spoelstra: It was the angels. And I wonder how -- you know, what did that look like? Was it a Texas Roadhouse bread basket? Like, what -- how did the angels minister, you know, to Jesus?

So for me, I think that we can pray any of the psalms with confidence. And I think that if -- you know, that God wants to guide us and protect us, and he can use any variety of ways.

I've had a few people say, Well, do we need angels to guide us anymore, because we have the Holy Spirit, who lives within us. And where -- I had the same question, and I go to the New Testament, the Book of Acts. I love the story of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch. And one of my favorite things about it is that it was an angel who told Philip to go to the desert.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's true. Yeah.

Melissa Spoelstra: And then it was the Holy Spirit that told him to run alongside the chariot. And then the Ethiopian is holding the Book of Isaiah, and then Philip gets into the chariot as a human messenger to explain the Word of God more fully. Here is one man. God used an angel, his Spirit, his Word, and a human messenger.

Jennifer Rothschild: Word. Oooh.

Melissa Spoelstra: And that tells me that if God wants to send an angel today, he can. If he wants to use his Spirit, he can. He often uses his Word in my life, and other people. And if he wants to do a quadruple whammy and use them all at once, he can do that too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Wow. Okay, I've never heard that, and I love that, Melissa. Thank you for putting that together. That is so powerful.

Okay. So what I'm hearing from you is the point is that we don't get angel obsessed --

Melissa Spoelstra: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but because we study angels, we get God obsessed because of what we're learning.

Melissa Spoelstra: I couldn't have said it better myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I love that.

Melissa Spoelstra: Exactly, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So then kind of put it together for us. How does really understanding angels impact our knowledge of God's character? So it might help us maybe get to know God or love God more, but how does it reflect and help us to understand better his character?

Melissa Spoelstra: Well, I think just his power, his all -- like, just how much he is able to do. So many times I cut God down to human size -- right? -- to what logically makes sense to me. And this -- just looking at him in the context of angels just kind of blows who he is out of the water.

But really the two things that I -- were transformative in my life and that I would hope studying angels would be for other women is certainly to see God more clearly, but I think it will directly impact our faith. It will grow our faith to trust God more. But then it will also impact our prayer life. Because if we really believe that God hears our prayers in heaven and acts upon them, I think I would pray more if I really believed that. So, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. There's so many things I'm thinking of that I would like to ask you. Okay, so here's where I want to go with this. So I've listened to you. It's ignited my -- like, a biblical reminiscence of Scripture. Like, oh, yes, I've read that. Oh, yes, I've read that. I've never put it all together. So when you're putting it together, Melissa, like this as one beautiful theme, I'm seeing the sovereignty of God --

Melissa Spoelstra: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- right? -- in all these angel episodes and angel sightings. And so here's the thing, Sister. Everything you talked about, rightly so, is in the Bible. What about in Melissa's life? What about in Jennifer's life? We don't have a proof text that says, well, when I was eight, I was about to be hit by a car, but angels rescued me.

Melissa Spoelstra: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't know. We don't know.

Melissa Spoelstra: We don't know.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how do we apply these biblical truths about angels' activities and God's sovereignty and the hope that it brings us and all the things you've just discussed? This is going to be our last question. Kind of give us an idea, so therefore now how shall we live? Like, how does this impact us? What do we do? How do we exercise our faith differently? How do we engage angels, if we do, or how do we engage God and anticipate angels?

Melissa Spoelstra: Yeah. I wouldn't say that we engage angels in any way differently, but I think we -- we look at the lens of our circumstance and recognize that there's likely more at play than just what I can see. I think about Job and all of his story of suffering. And everyone has a story of suffering. But it can change our lens to say there are things happening that I don't know and that I can trust God with.

I also believe that it should move us to want to adore God. I mean, his holy angels are doing it. Are we going to let them do it without us or are we going to join them? Like the Revelation chorus speaks of how we will all together -- I mean, we're going to worship with them for all of eternity, so let's start now. So adoring him.

But then also I think it should give us an urgency about sharing the Gospel. That was certainly a takeaway for me as I looked at angels. Jesus says when he returns, he's coming back with all the angels. And we know from Revelation 5, it says there are millions of them. And what they're coming back to do is harvest the earth.

And I know I have loved ones that are far from God and that don't know Jesus. And he talks about the weeds and the wheat and the wheat pile and the weeds pile. And the truth is, the invitation of Jesus is extended to every person. No one needs to be in the weed pile. So we want to urgently share that message kindly and in a winsome way, not in a shove-it-down-people's-throat way.

But that was one of the big reminders for me in just looking at angels throughout the Bible. And I would say they're like the theme music in Star Wars, right? When the theme music comes on, you know something really cool is about to happen. And so as we read our Bibles, when angels enter the scene, it always points us to God is intervening in the lives of his people.

And so that is -- just to remember that you're not alone here. That your God hears your prayers, he's intervening in our lives day to day, and he's coming back and we want to be ready.

KC Wright: I absolutely loved it when she said that when angels appear, it's like the theme music in Star Wars begins.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Hums Star Wars theme.)

KC Wright: Something cool is about to happen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: When angels appear, it points to God intervening in the lives of people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Seriously, I loved that. I loved everything about this conversation. So, our friends, let me just sum it up. Angels remind us you're not alone. Angels remind us that God hears and he intervenes. And it's a beautiful thought. He's coming back again with all those angels to take you home.

KC Wright: All right. This again was a really good one. I'm gonna listen to it again. But if you want to check out the transcript, remember, we always have those for you at 413podcast.com/400. And we'll also have links to Melissa's Bible study, plus the other episode on The 4:13 where she talked about the Gospel of John.

And one more thing. The story Jennifer told about angel parking, well, we have that book too on the Show Notes. It was your first, right, Jennifer?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. It was my first book called "Lessons I Learned in the Dark," which is Steps to Walking by Faith and Not by Sight. So, yeah, we'll have that there also.

All right, our people, this was wonderful and rich. So remember, whatever you're facing, whatever you're feeling like today, you can do it, Sisters and Brothers. You can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: The one thing that I always think about in referencing -- you know, talking -- speaking of angels is the Bible says that when one person says yes to Jesus, when there's one salvation, the angels rejoice. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. I can't imagine.

KC Wright: But just imagine what -- think about their everyday life, what they're seeing. They're seeing the majesty of heaven, the splendor of heaven, the city, God himself. But yet when one human says yes to Jesus, they celebrate. That's the most glorious thing to them.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's beautiful, KC. It just shows how much God loves us --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that that's what would make the angels break out in celebration.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Beautiful.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Recover From Trauma? With Mary DeMuth [Episode 399]

Mary DeMuth: Truth is is that God is in the business of redeeming. And think about when Jesus talks about unless a seed falls to the ground and dies -- you know, unless it does that, it won't bear the fruit. So you have to -- there is this part of healing that feels like death. It feels like a breaking apart of the seed. And it's almost as if you cannot see what good could come out of breaking up of a seed.

But death always comes before resurrection. And so if you're in that place of sorrow and death, just know that Sunday is coming and resurrection is coming. And God loves to redeem a difficult story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Today's guest, Mary DeMuth, really knows what it feels like to walk through trauma, loss, and deep brokenness, and she still finds God in the midst of the struggle. So on today's episode, our friend Mary is going to show you how she lived a story that, oh, she would have never written for herself. And she celebrates that God rewrites, redeems, and restores all of our stories.

She is going to introduce you to how Jesus meets you in your past, transforms your present, and sets a new course for your future. Jesus is still writing your story, my friend, so let's trust him with the pen.

All right, here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, that was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy, and we're so glad you're here. I'm Jennifer, and I'm just here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this 4:13 life.

Oh, my friends, I gotta tell you, though, my house is very loud right now. It is so loud that even though KC was planning to come over and record, there is so much banging and drills and saws, and here's why. I'm getting new floors upstairs. And as you know, the podcast studio is under the stairs. So everything was so loud, I had to tell KC not to come.

I've got to tell you what happened. So the other day I was like, "Okay, I want to record, let's" -- you know, "come over," and he's like, "Absolutely." Well, KC and I, we often talk to each other on audio texting. And, you know, KC's a goofball, and you know how hilarious he is. So when I asked him, "Hey, you know, can you come over and -- I finally got my schedule together, come over and record," I want you to hear what his response was.

And by the way, I wonder if he's listening, because I did not tell him I was going to do this. This might have been just for me to hear, but I think you'll like it too. All right. So when I said, "KC, can you come over and record?" this is what I got back.

KC Wright: (Singing) Thank you for asking me. Thank you for asking me. I love to record with Jennifer Rothschild. Thank you for asking me. Thank you for asking me. Yes, I can, I can record. Yes, I can, I can record.

How was that?

Group of Women: We love you, KC. (Cheering)

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it's true, we do love you, KC. How was that? That was excellent. We love you and we miss you. And hopefully my floors will be done soon, honestly, because I want you to get back down here under the stairs with me. And also, honestly, I live in a dust bowl right now. It is so dusty upstairs.

Okay. Let's get to Mary DeMuth, because this was a good conversation. She's been on the podcast before, and, of course, I will link you to her other episode that she was with us. But today we're talking about rewriting our stories.

So Mary DeMuth is a speaker, a literary agent, and the author of over 50 books, including the one that we're talking about today, which is called "Restory Your Life." She is also the host of the Pray Every Day podcast, and she and her hubby, Patrick, have been married over 30 years and they live in Texas.

All right, here's me and Mary. Or Mary and I. Or Mary and me. I forget how you say that correctly. But you get the idea. Here we are. Listen in.

All right, Mary. I told you before we got live here that I'm happy you're back. Your last episode was one of my favorites. And, in fact, you're one of my favorites. So I'm glad we get to talk about this book, because it has a clever title, "Restory Your Life." So this is how Jesus reframes your past, rewrites your present, and redefines your future. I mean, what a huge promise and what a clever title.

So I want to know, what about a restory? Like, what is it? What do you mean by that? And for you personally, did you ever have a time when you personally needed a restory?

Mary DeMuth: Well, I feel like I need a restory every single day --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Mary DeMuth: -- in the times that we live in. But I would say restory means that -- God has given us all a story, right? And we -- a lot of times we come to this world with hard things in our story. I know you have hard things in your story. I have hard things in mine. And yet when Jesus intersects that story, he restories us, he gives us a brand-new story. And that story isn't just that we're healed, it's that we're healed in order to be agents of healing in a broken world. And that's kind of the whole concept behind it.

There's your past, there's your present, there's your future. Your past, you can't change it. Your present, you can revel in the joy that Jesus has brought you today. And then you can look forward to anticipation in the ministry that God has for you, no matter what shape that may take.

Jennifer Rothschild: I like that. Okay, so it's all hopeful. Because you alluded to the fact that we can't change our past. Like, there's some things about your story, some things about my story that we cannot change. Okay. But we can live fully in the present, revel in it as you say, anticipate how God's going to use it in the future. We got all that.

So let's go back to the past, because -- I don't know all the details, but I know that you've been pretty candid about childhood trauma and brokenness, and that was part of your story. So how did that part of your story shape your understanding of God's presence in your story?

Mary DeMuth: Yeah. I didn't know the Lord growing up, but I longed for him. I didn't know what I was longing for, but I had this, like, reach, that I was reaching for something, something transcendent. And in my little life, I'd had -- I'd been a child of several divorces. I'd been in a home with a lot of drug abuse. There was a -- there's crime everywhere. My biological father was predatory. I also was sexually abused my entire kindergarten year by a couple neighborhood teenagers. And so I have all -- almost every adverse child experience that you can get from the ACE study I have, other than I haven't been in a house fire.

So those were some of the things that really marked me and caused me to really get to the point in my life when I was, like, 12, 13 years old, where I was really on the brink of ending it all.

And thankfully, right at that moment in my eighth grade year, I met a counselor in my junior high. He was just like the, you know, random counselor. And he just spent time with me and listened to me, and he really saved my life. And then as a ninth and tenth grader, I started going to Young Life, and I met Christ at 15 through Young Life and a Young Life camp. And so that's kind of where I met Christ, but that's my background story.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so you know what's interesting? Not interesting. That word is not -- it doesn't represent how I feel about your story. But what is -- this is what struck me. After you described everything and then you said, "and a house fire," you know, in a less traumatic childhood, a house fire would have been enough. But -- that's almost an aside. That's like, "oh, yeah, and."

So lots of us listening would say, okay, so without Christ's redemption -- you know, you don't survive a story like that without his love and presence in your life. And so I'm so grateful that he met -- he came and got you and saved you as a 15-year-old.

And so then as you now, decades later, are living the story that God has allowed in your life, I do want us to pause. Because some people just heard your story and they're like, yeah, she sounds so peaceful. I've had a similar story. I'm not there. I am not there. So let's go from just the fact that Jesus saved you to why you are okay. Because your background is not okay. So why are you okay?

Mary DeMuth: Yeah. I really can give glory to the Lord and really testify to the power of prayer. I hoped -- you know, when I met Jesus, I kind of had this naive hope that everything would be better from that point on and I would be completely healed. And, sure, there was part of that, like, there was some really good healing that happened in that very little tiny moment.

But in college I spent time sharing my story. Because I believe an untold story doesn't heal, so I shared it a lot. Probably overshared it. And there were all these people that God placed in my life who loved to pray, and so I had a lot of healing during that time.

But then I kind of made a decision and I said, okay, I'm healed now and I'm never going to revisit this again and I'm just going to move on with my life. Well, that worked for about ten years, and then my eldest child turned five, which is the age I was when all those abuses happened, and I fell apart. And that's when counseling was really helpful. So I don't want to just say, well, just pray it away, it's fine, because it was a lot of different things. It was counseling, it was prayer, it was lots of conversations.

There was a time where I couldn't -- we couldn't afford counseling for a very long time, and so I bought a lot of books and I read a lot of books and I just begged people to pray for me. So I kind of had, like, a patchwork of different ways that brought me closer to the Lord and closer to healing.

But I do want to speak to the person who feels like they're in that place of it's never going to get better, it's so dark, I'm in the slog and I can't get out. And I just want to say that's really normal and that is a part of my story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm glad you said that, because I do think we compare ourselves so quickly to others and think, well, if she's okay, why am I not okay? And it's just -- okay is a continuum. You're okay, the fact that you're feeling it and recognizing it. And as Mary said, you know, let it be revealed so it can heal.

And I love, Mary, that you also said even when you couldn't afford counseling, God gave you counselors through books. And you've written some of those books. So there are resources. And then, of course, there's always hope in Jesus.

And so you also mention in this particular book turning points. Okay. So we all have turning points in our stories. And so what I thought when I read that was, okay. So, Mary, help us know, how do we know that something is a turning point, like for the good, rather than just a detour or a dead end or a speed bump?

Mary DeMuth: Well, it's -- I'm really smart about that after it's happened. I'm really dumb about it in the middle of it. So usually my response is this is not a good turning point and it's not going to go well. But then in retrospect, I look back and go, oh, my goodness, look at all the great things that God did in that tragedy or that pain that I did not anticipate.

So I think it's -- I think the older we get, the wiser we are and the more ability we have to say, okay, wait a minute, I'm just going to slow down and be, like, leaning into this and asking God to teach me through this. But when I was younger, I was just like, this is terrible, I'm pushing against it, I don't like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that makes sense. I think we're all so much smarter in retrospect. I'm a genius, actually, in retrospect.

Mary DeMuth: Me too.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you talked about too, like, when you were in college, even just sharing your story was part of your healing. So I assume that that concept is also part -- knowing what your subtitle is, that with the restory that God wants to do, that there is future redemption. Does that come through just time experience and maturity, or is being honest about your story part of that redemption?

Mary DeMuth: I think you can't heal without the honesty. You have to be honest. And if you have, like, a secret story that you haven't shared yet, you won't heal beyond the secret. So my encouragement to people in that place -- and there's a lot of us out there -- is to -- if you're timid and afraid, which is very normal, is to either write it down or speak it into your phone and then find and ask God for a safe person.

And if you've written it down, just push your story across the table to them or push play. And that way it's not as scary as you directly saying it and being afraid you might cry when you share it. But let me just tell you, when you get a secret out in the open with a safe, kind-hearted person, you will be shocked at the freedom that you will find.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so true. And people -- I think sometimes we over-anticipate how they're going to respond, and it is rare that people don't respond with full embrace and grace.

Mary DeMuth: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I think, Mary -- what about shame? I mean, you didn't cause any of your backstory. You were in many ways just -- you were a child. So many things happened to you. Did you struggle with shame? And do you think that is part of the reason that sometimes we don't share our stories?

Mary DeMuth: I think a lot of people have that. And I certainly have a lot of shame in my childhood. One little gift, to be super honest -- during that one year where all those bad things were happening to me, God gave me a gift even though I didn't know him yet. And that gift was I knew that what they were doing was wrong and that they were to blame.

Now, that doesn't always happen to people, so I don't, you know, hold that up as the way to be. And I was only five, so that was imparted to me, that was not my own wherewithal. And so I knew even then that the shame at that point -- the sexual shame did not belong to me, it belonged to the perpetrators. That's very mature. And, again, that's the Lord.

But I would say that as an encouragement to people. If you have been harmed by somebody else, whether it's been physically harmed or emotionally harmed, the shame belongs to the perpetrator, not the one perpetrated against. And that's really hard to unlearn because -- especially if it involves sexual abuse, because it's just such a shame-filled environment. Very hard to remove that from the equation.

But if maybe you can think about -- if you have been sexually abused and you kind of rethink of it like someone, you know, hit you in the face. Well, of course you wouldn't have shame for someone else hitting you in the face. But it's kind of the same idea, like, it's still an injury to your body.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Mary DeMuth: And your soul too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh, every fiber of your being. Yes, it is.

And sometimes I think, you know, when we experience shame, it's like, well, if I had or I could have. And we're almost angry at ourselves for letting it happen, when most of the time that is just not the case. So there's a gentleness and a kindness that we need to have for ourselves.

I was thinking about those listening who have a story and they might feel just stuck in it, like aaah. They feel stuck in their story. So what is step one? If they're realizing -- they're feeling stuck in their story, what is step one to get unstuck?

Mary DeMuth: I think just that recognition is super important, to say out loud, I am stuck and I don't know what to do. And oftentimes it is other people who can unstick us. Because when we've had -- typically trauma is a relational wound. It's not always a relational wound, but it often is. And a relational wound requires a relational cure. So if you're harmed in bad community, God often asks good community to help you heal. And so part of that moving toward health and unstuckness is to ask someone to help you.

My friend Jim says that we're all salad dressing bottles and we need -- we're all squished inside the salad dressing with our olive oil and our vinegar, but we need someone on the outside to read our ingredients because we're so stuck inside that we can't and we need someone outside of us to do that.

And so I think that's one of my encouragements, is to be a little bit brave and to ask someone who loves you well and just say, Hey, I am stuck. I cannot get beyond this. What do you see in my life? What steps forward do you see for me? Where am I -- you know, where am I not surrendering? What do I keep tripping myself up on? I think it's this, but I'm not sure. And you might be surprised at what they will bring forward to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is so good, Mary, because I think we don't see it. We don't -- because all we can see is what we know. And you're right. What a good, good word. And I love that you brought out that truth that often those wounds are, you know, relational and so God heals them relationally. Wow. Okay, so that's a great first step. All right? So let's say we've got a good first step there. We're going to be honest with our story and be in community, safe community.

All right. Now, someone's listening and they're like, okay, I could do that. I can even identify some people right now in my imagination and my heart, but this feels very overwhelming. So let's say -- let's just give them some hope of what it looks like after step one. Because you clearly -- as you've walked in healing, you've established some habits or daily practices that have helped you. So what would you recommend for someone?

Mary DeMuth: First to saturate yourself in the Word of God and tell yourself the gospel and the truth that you are loved, you're a child of the Lord, he is for you, not against you. We sometimes just have to train those negative voices in our head to believe the truth. So that's very important.

The other thing is -- I'll answer with a story. And this has been a really helpful practice for me, and I don't even know what you would call it.

But when I was in college, I was in the Pacific Northwest, and so it was super rainy, and I loved to run. And we had an indoor track that was like an eighth of a mile long, and so when it was raining, I would run on the indoor track. And I started this practice and -- I don't, you know, even know why I thought of it. But every lap that I ran around that track, I would recount my life. So lap one was year one, lap two was year two, lap three was year three, and so on. And for a while, all I did was just recount the sadness of the story until I got to 19, which is how old I was.

Eventually I began to shift it and I began to look at each year of my life and trying to find God's handprints in them, his fingerprints in my story. And so I would see the rescue that I had at one years old when my parents divorced, which was actually very good for me because of my predatory father. Every year I would begin to see, okay, what were you doing, God? How can I have this curiosity of God's bread crumbs in my story and his beautiful intersection? And that has really been transformative for me.

So you might not need to jog around a track. You can, you know, do anything. But maybe have that practice of recount your life, if you can, in years or blocks of years, and then go back and recount God's handprints in them.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's really good, and very powerful. And I was thinking of the bravery, the courage that it takes to look at those snapshots of memories that might be difficult, but to look close enough to see the fingerprints. Because God's hand was on it, as hard as that is to imagine. Mary, that's really practical.

All right, let's get, though, to our last question. There's so much here. And I'm also mindful that -- I appreciate your depth without you being heavy, because I know for many this is a hard subject. So let's get to our last question here.

So what would you say to the person whose story -- let me put it this way. Sometimes our story is one thing, but then the side benefits, which are not benefits at all, can be just as damaging. So let's say somebody's got a story, but that story makes them feel like they don't have good purpose in life or maybe that God even forgot them. What would you say to them as they are restorying their lives?

Mary DeMuth: First I'll say it's really normal to feel like you are beyond the reach of God, it's really normal to feel like my story's too big. And I've definitely been in those places. So I don't want people to think that I never thought that way, because I certainly did. Because we live in it. You know, we're in our salad dressing bottle, we're swimming in it. But the truth is -- and that's where it's important to preach the truth to ourselves.

The truth is is that God is in the business of redeeming. And think about when Jesus talks about unless a seed falls to the ground and dies -- unless it does that, it won't bear the fruit. So you have to -- there is this part of healing that feels like death. It feels like a breaking apart of a seed. And it's almost as if you cannot see what good could come out of a breaking up of a seed.

But death always comes before resurrection. And so if you're in that place of sorrow and death, just know that Sunday is coming and resurrection is coming. And God loves to redeem a difficult story. And it does take work. So part of it is -- I think some of us think, well, I just wish God would just zap me and heal me. But it is a pursuit. It is active. We must long for it, we must want it, we must grab for it. And we just -- there's no lackadaisical healing. We have to just -- we have to pursue it too.

So it's like you're reaching out of the pit, like out of Psalm -- I think it's 40 or 42 where we're reaching out of the pit. We're doing our reaching, but God does the impossible. He goes down into the miry clay of the pit, pulls us out and sets our feet upon a rock, making our footsteps firm. There's two actions in there. Someone's reaching, someone's grabbing. God's grabbing and stronger, but we need to reach for him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Healing is not easy, but you can do the work. You can reach up from wherever you are down in that pit, because God is reaching down to pull you out. So remember, your story is not too big or too broken for God. God is in it. He redeems it. Oh, there is hope, my friends. So check out her book on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/399.

And also on the Show Notes I'm going to have a couple of my books that I think will really minister to you based on this conversation. One is called "God Is Just Not Fair." It's where I go through the six big questions of faith like, God, do you care? God, do you make mistakes? God, are you really fair? It's just real hope when life doesn't make sense.

Also, if you want to do something more interactive, there is a Bible study I wrote called "Missing Pieces." And it's just going to help you go through the Scriptures and see where maybe those missing pieces are in your blanket of faith to help you get through maybe as you're restorying your life. So go there to the Show Notes, get all the things you need, read the transcript, because Mary dropped some good truth bombs in this conversation. It was awesome.

All right, my people, I am going to head back upstairs to the dust bowl with my combat boots on, because that's what I have to wear to trudge through my subfloors. But hopefully next week it'll be a little quieter around here. So until next week, remember, whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can. And that means you can too. Have a great week.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Start Small Habits To Grow Big Faith? With Hanna Seymour [Episode 398]

Hanna Seymour: If I want to become a woman who loves God, loves God's Word and knows God's Word, instead of setting a goal that is, I want to read the Bible in a year, I actually want an identity-based goal to be what I just said, I want to be a woman who knows and loves God's Word.

Now, reading the Bible in a year can vote towards that, but the science of habit formation says if you have not cultivated a habit of daily opening your Bible, signing up for a 365 from Genesis to Revelation plan, that's going big or going home. We don't have to start with these lofty goals. We start small, easy, make it fit into our lives, and then let it grow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sixty-five percent of Christian women admit that they are not satisfied with their spiritual lives. Hmm. Curious, are you one of them? Well, today author Hanna Seymour is going to combine the science of habit formation with the practice of spiritual disciplines to help you.

She's gonna help you take small steps to grow your faith in very big ways, my friend. You are gonna learn how to start Bible reading and prayer habits. Plus, you will learn how to incorporate solitude, celebration, and community as Hanna gives us super practical ways to develop some life-changing habits. So let's get this podcast started.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And you know the drill. It's just two friends and one topic and zero stress here under the closet. But KC is actually not here today. I just used his recorded voice. I had to get some stuff done quickly and we could not coordinate our schedule. So, my friends, you get me. But you don't just get me. I brought a special guest.

Now, let me tell you why. So since we're talking about small habits today, I thought it would be fun to have a small person show you what it looks like to develop habits. Okay. So you know I've got these grandchildren. In fact, I will just tell you this. Our oldest son, Clayton, and his wife, Caroline, I swear, I think they are building the 12 Tribes of Rothschild. They have had their fifth child already. And so I think we're done, but we're not sure.

But this one that you're about to hear from is little John Robert. Now, they are all adorable. And so John Robert likes to sing. He likes to sing (singing) Who Let the Dogs Out? Yes, that's one of his favorites. And, of course, Baby Shark. But they teach him all sorts of hymns and spiritual songs. And so Caroline, my daughter-in-law, caught this for me and sent it, and I just thought you guys need to hear this little precious boy beginning with small habits. I think this is gonna bless you. Here's John Robert.

John Robert Rothschild: (Singing) Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong, they are weak but he is strong. Yes, Jesus loves me, the Bible tells me so.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, adorable. Didn't get all the lyrics in the right places, but, hey, he got the right concept going on. And it's true, Jesus does love us. But I just wanted you to hear that, because it just shows small habits are gonna grow big faith in that little boy's life. And the same thing is true for you. So that's what we're gonna talk about today.

I can't tell you how much I appreciated this conversation, especially as a psychology major, just seeing how she's applying -- Hanna is applying these habits that we -- we create small habits and our brains learn them. And it just makes a big difference. So let me introduce Hanna, in case she is new to you.

She is an author and she's a Bible teacher and she is also a podcast host. And this woman is passionate about helping people walk passionately and faithfully with Jesus in their normal lives. She's a seminary graduate, she's a wife, and she is a mom of three, and today she's a 4:13er. So settle in and let's learn together.

All right, Hanna, one thing that caught my eye immediately was this survey you did. So I want to start with this survey that you did. Okay. Two thousand Christian women. And it revealed something interesting. So I want you to tell us what it revealed. But then I want you to go a step further and tell us what you think the reasons were for what it revealed.

Hanna Seymour: Sure, sure. So I had the privilege of putting together a survey that over 2,100 Christian women took. These were women that said they were between the ages of 25 and -- oh, I don't remember the cap. Under 50. We were going for the millennial Christian woman.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Hanna Seymour: And I asked them a lot of questions just about their season of life, their spiritual life, and 65% of those 2,100 women reported that they were unsatisfied with their spiritual lives. And so right away I'm looking at that stat going, whoa, what is happening underneath here?

Because there were other answers about, like, there is joy in my life, my life does look pretty much like I thought it would look, so, you know, there's both contentment and discontentment happening in our lives. But the number one desire that I saw over and over and over in these answers was that these women were craving consistency in their spiritual walk, but specifically consistency in what we usually call spiritual disciplines. So Bible reading, prayer, Christian community, daily time with God.

But I think the heart of it was we live very busy, very chaotic lives. And there are a lot of great books out there that tell you, you know, stop it, slow down. But I always kind of laugh. I'm like, I have three children. And I homeschool them three days a week and I have a job outside of that and, you know, like, I don't -- there's not much that I can cut out, you know. My friend that's telling me to stop being busy --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I get you. I mean, you don't even have time to stop to read the book that tells you to stop. I get you.

Hanna Seymour: Exactly. Exactly.

So, you know, these women, they're not craving a rescheduling, restructuring of their lives, they don't want grand spiritual feats, they just want to show up consistently before the Lord and with God's people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And so that sounds so accessible and so doable, yet we all struggle. In fact, when you gave the list of consistent Bible reading, prayer, I thought, yeah, all the things that induce guilt, because we don't seem like we can do it well. But it's an invitation.

So one of the things you contend in your book is that -- kind of the remedy is small habits. Okay? Because we often think of spiritual habits as these long, like, very demanding things. So since your survey was for these busy people -- and let's be honest, that's most of us. It's very few of us that don't have these kind of demanding lives. So how can we, as busy people, pull this off, start these small habits?

Hanna Seymour: Yep. So the thing that we say a lot about the book is that it takes spiritual disciplines out of the pulpit and the monastery, because we think -- just what you were saying about spiritual disciplines being these long, back-breaking things that the professional Christians do, right? But most of us aren't going to become a monk or nun anytime soon --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Hanna Seymour: -- or a professional Christian or a pastor, and it places those practices in your kitchen, your commute, and your everyday routines.

So for me what happened, I was in seminary and I'm reading all of these incredible texts about spiritual disciplines, spiritual formation. And then in my free time, I was nerding out in these science of habit formation books. And I was drawn to that because I was rethinking my own life of fitness and nutrition. I'd had three babies in three and a half years and I was just trying to get some things straight in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah, I get that.

Hanna Seymour: And I'm reading the science of habit formation and I'm learning how to actually create a habit that sticks and lasts and puts you on the path of who you want to become. And I thought, wait a second. Why are we not applying this concept, these ideas of small habits?

Because the science tells us you take the large goal that you want. You want to run a marathon. Okay, that's an objective-based goal. Let's change it to an identity-based goal, which is I want to become a runner, and then we create small habits that continually place a vote, that continually help us show up to becoming a runner.

So all that to say, I started going, oh my gosh, this applies to spiritual disciplines. If I want to become a woman who loves God, loves God's Word and knows God's Word, instead of setting a goal that is, I want to read the Bible in a year, I actually want an identity-based goal to be what I just said, I want to be a woman who knows and loves God's Word.

Now, reading the Bible in a year can vote towards that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Hanna Seymour: But the science of habit formation says if you have not cultivated a habit of daily opening your Bible, signing up for a 365 from Genesis to Revelation plan, that's going big or going home. We don't have to start with these lofty goals. We start small, easy, make it fit into our lives, and then let it grow.

So that was the way I kind of distilled the science of habit formation and then said let's look at that. Let's look at how we can make all these spiritual disciplines small, easy, fit into your everyday life and then let it grow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love this so much. And so we're going to go into these disciplines specifically, but let me just pause here. Because it is so profound and biblical, this science of habit formation, making it identity-based rather than objective-based, because of who we are in Christ, this makes so much sense. So I love that. And it's so logical. I want to be a woman, you know, who follows hard after God's heart. I don't want to necessarily pull off all my disciplines by 9 AM for the sake of being an objective goal meeter.

Hanna Seymour: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I love that, Hanna. And I want that to soak into our listeners because that's powerful right there.

Okay. So now let's kind of go through some of the things that make up these disciplines. Okay? So lots of us feel very defeated when it comes to reading the Bible because we think it has to be this, you know, two-hour event every morning. And so you write that Scripture intake does not have to be long or complicated to be transformative. And so you encourage what you call seed-sized Bible habits. So I want you to explain that. What does that look like on an ordinary Tuesday for us?

Hanna Seymour: Yeah. So again, a seed habit is a small, easy habit that fits into our day. And so I tell a story in the book about Billy Graham. He kept open Bibles in practically every room in his house. And he would stop -- as he walked through a room, he'd stop by that Bible, where it was open to that page, and he would read just a few seconds. And then he'd walk into the next room and read over there a few seconds. And his grandson tells this story, and kind of joking he's like, you know, "Granddad, what could you possibly be getting from the Bible in that short amount of time?" And Billy Graham looked at his grandson and said, "I sip on the Word of God all day long."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Hanna Seymour: And so I talk about that in that chapter of let's sip and sip and sip all day long on the Word of God. So if you have never cultivated a daily habit of opening your Bible -- and I genuinely mean that, just opening your Bible --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hanna Seymour: -- then maybe your seed habit is, if you're a coffee drinker, you leave an open Bible next to your coffee machine. I recommend turning to that book of Philippians. It's probably my favorite book to come back to. And when you press start on your coffee machine, start Philippians 1:1. Read a few verses. Go do, you know, whatever you normally do, come back, fill up your cup, maybe you read a few more verses. But that is the tiniest seed habit that we can start.

And then throughout that chapter I talk about studying memorizing, meditating. And memorizing and meditating Scripture are maybe my favorite ways to sprinkle seed habits of Scripture throughout your day, because you can do that when your hands are busy and your mind's free. So you can work on meditating Scripture or memorizing Scripture when you're in between sets at the gym, when you're in the carpool line, when you're washing dishes, folding laundry.

You know, there's all these things we do all day long, where our hands are busy and our mind is free, and we can be sprinkling seeds, listening to audio -- you know, Scripture being read to us, all these different ways that we can just sip on the word of God all day long.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love this so much. You're my kind of girl, because this is how I do it. Like, I teach Bible study, and I write them and I love it. But this is how I just process the Word during the day. And I will do it through my phone. Because I'm blind, my phone talks to me. And so I will have verses sent to me through different Bible apps. And sometimes it'll show up on a text message, sometimes it'll be a notification.

But I literally -- whatever it is, that's my verse. And I will read it the first time, I will listen to it during the day. I will seek to memorize it, I'll begin to meditate. And that's how I do it too. Because I can't handle a ton more than that because I want to really absorb it.

And when you think about it, Hanna, if you're thirsty, you just need to sip. First of all you need to sip. Otherwise, if you gulp it all down, you're just not going to feel good, you're not going to absorb it. You just need to sip. And so I love this. And I would presume that in this chapter you do give -- like the coffee maker example, you give us some very practical ways to do this so that it'll be easy for the reader.

Hanna Seymour: Yep, yep. And, I mean, just like you were saying, I think -- I love and I care a lot about having an early morning moment with the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same.

Hanna Seymour: You know, I want to be in solitude. I want to have my Bible and my coffee and I want to study the Scripture. You know, I'll read and then kind of go into some commentaries. That's how I'm wired. And I've been trained to do that, and I love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I love that too, yeah.

Hanna Seymour: But what I've found is sometimes I can close my Bible after that time in the morning and never think about it again through the rest of the day. But when I started implementing these seed habits throughout my day, it just re-tethers me to the Lord over and over and over again, rewashes my mind. We are constantly talking to ourselves, constantly thinking things in our head. And for me to be replacing my thoughts, that are either selfish or anxiety ridden or, you know, whatever, with the Word of God, it's radically transformed my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love this. Well, and it moves it, Hanna, from being just informational to relational, which is the goal.

Okay, so let's talk about another one. Because whenever I do any kind of conversation podcast about prayer -- I mean, I cannot tell you how the women respond to this. I think it's because we all feel the angst. All right?

Hanna Seymour: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's another area where we might feel a little guilt or confusion because we think, well, there's a perfect prayer life, and clearly I don't have it. So talk to us about prayer life with seed habits.

Hanna Seymour: So my favorite seed habit with prayer -- and maybe -- let's just back up real quick and say, you know, I think all Christians feel guilt or shame -- and we could talk about the difference between those two -- when it comes to our prayer life. And I take so much solace that the one thing that is recorded for us in Scripture, that the disciples asked Jesus, was, "Teach us how to pray." That is the only thing we have recorded that they specifically asked Jesus to teach them. And so, man, if the guys that hung out with Jesus pretty much 24/7 for three years needed help learning how to pray, I think that should just make us feel better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, amen. Yeah.

Hanna Seymour: But I think prayer specifically, we have this idea of what it should look like, what it should sound like, how long it should be. And so I think making a prayer life, you know, giving it seed habit form and sprinkling it throughout your day, I think it takes the pressure off of approaching the Lord in a certain way with the right things and the right way.

And my favorite seed habit for prayer is start -- so when I say make it small, make it easy, make it fit into your day, when we talk about that make it fit, we want to identify triggers in our day that will remind us to pray or remind us to do whatever habit it is that we want.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Hanna Seymour: And so a trigger that I've started is when I start to wait. We wait on average -- you know, sources say anywhere from 20 to 40 minutes a day. We're waiting in line for things, we're waiting on people. You know, I'm waiting for my children to put their shoes on and get in the car. You're waiting for a meeting to begin. We wait on tech, like elevators, microwaves, you know, all these different things. Twenty to 40 minutes. What if -- and you're not going to catch it every time. But what if today you said, okay, today when I realize I'm waiting, instead of grabbing my phone -- because that's actually what we do usually when we wait --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Hanna Seymour: -- and the trigger is grab the phone -- I'm going to pray. And all I'm going to do is just take a breath and say, "Hi, Lord, I'm here."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Hanna Seymour: What do we need to talk about right now? Will you bring to my mind what have I been worried about? What are some sinful thoughts that maybe I've had, some negative thoughts about other people? You know, just whatever, like, But, Lord, I'm here. Let's talk. What is on my heart that I need to confess to you? And then help me to listen for your guidance and your spirit to work in me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Brilliant. This is so practical. I just love this.

Okay. So these feel very doable, how you just described Bible reading and how you describe prayer. But then there's the biggie, I think, for busy people, solitude.

Hanna Seymour: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So how do we really practice this that's doable? Well, first of all, like, define it for us and then apply it to real people with real lives.

Hanna Seymour: Okay. Biblical solitude is being alone with God. So solitude is not just about being alone and being in silence. It's about being aware of God's presence, that he is with you. And a lot of times solitude is an umbrella habit, meaning we do other things. You know, I'll say I have time of solitude in the morning. Well, usually I've got my Bible open and I'm probably praying in that pocket of solitude.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Hanna Seymour: When I was reading these texts in seminary and digging into solitude, it was very discouraging to me because so much of the advice is getting solitude early in the morning. Which, listen, again, I like that. I love that. But there has been a -- I had three babies in three and a half years, so there was a season of life that I just could -- I could not do it, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I get it.

Hanna Seymour: I could not wake up any earlier than that infant, because that infant woke me up like, three hours ago, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Yeah.

Hanna Seymour: It wasn't a thing.

So early in the morning -- which that was Jesus' habit. And so I think that's where we get that idea from. We needed to wake up early in the morning, still in the darkness before the sun has come up, and have alone time with God. Yes. I love that, and that is -- I think there are seasons of life when we can do that. But it's an invitation, not a command, I would say. Some may argue with that.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I agree.

Hanna Seymour: And then the other side is all of this advice of we'll go on a solitude retreat. Well, again, hello. I am a mom of three children eight and under. I do not have a weekend.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Hanna Seymour: Some may say, well, you just need to prioritize it. But Donald Whitney had this idea of minute retreats. And this is really where I, you know, hung my hat on. I thought, this is a seed habit. This works for us, this works for women in a similar season of life as me, or just a busy woman. I can have a minute of solitude.

And so my moments of solitude started in the pantry with the light off. Sometimes I might be, you know, eating a little snack. But it went from I'm hiding from my children or I'm trying to just be alone for a minute or be in silence, to, oh, wait a minute, I'm alone with God. So again, this is a connection point with the Lord.

And I think solitude -- I used waiting as an example for, you know, a seed habit to pray. But I think waiting is a great time for any spiritual discipline, and we can use moments when we're waiting on something to just go, wait, I'm just gonna shut everything out right now, shut out all the noise and just be alone with God for 30 seconds, for 60 seconds, and re-tether myself to him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And what it does is -- it's reinforcing this virtuous cycle you're creating. Because we're wanting identity-based goals, not objective. And so again, it's putting you back in that situation of you're the daughter; he's the Father.

You know, Hanna, I wish I could remember exactly. So I know I might get this wrong, listeners. But it was Charles Wesley -- it was the Wesley brothers' mother, I believe. She had maybe --

Hanna Seymour: Susanna.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- nine kids. Susanna. Did you hear that story of how she would sit in the kitchen and put her apron over her head?

Hanna Seymour: Yes. It's one of my favorites.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it meant I'm being alone with God. I know. Okay. So busy moms, you know, put your hoodie over your head, whatever. But it is a very realistic, beautiful way to just, yeah, build those seed habits.

Now, one of them, though, I gotta say, that you are dealing with in the book, that surprised me and I'm very interested in, is -- you say that friendship is a spiritual habit. Okay, this is very cool. Because I'm curious how you think friendship can affect our spiritual growth. And all of us have friends. So are there small habits that we can develop within these friendships that can, you know, start to develop this spiritual discipline?

Hanna Seymour: Yeah. So in most spiritual discipline books that you'll find, they are going to list fellowship or community as a spiritual discipline. And I think it's vital to our spiritual growth. But as I was chewing on these ideas, I thought, you know, a smaller habit that leads to Christian community and fellowship is just friendship. And so what if we kind of zoom in on what it looks like to have Christ-centered friendship and plant seed habits that grow Christ-centered friendship that will lead us to having Christian community and fellowship.

And to your point, I do not believe -- God did not create us to be in relationship with him, just us and him. And, I mean, I love the term, you know, do you have a personal relationship with Jesus? I think it's -- you know, that came about in the 80s when the Protestant church was really kind of starting to grapple with how do we make sure people actually know God and aren't just, like, doing the things, just showing up at church, and so this idea of a personal relationship with Jesus.

But it doesn't mean it's supposed to be individualistic. We were created for community. And I grew up always hearing my dad say, you know, apart from three things, you will not grow in the Christian faith: God's Word, God's Spirit, and God's people. We need God's people to be rubbing shoulder to shoulder with and doing life with to help us grow.

And so this was probably my most challenging chapter to give actual small, easy habits that fit into your day. Right? Because friendship is not a small or easy thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Hanna Seymour: But neither are any of these other disciplines if you just, you know, take them at face value or whatever.

So ideas that I give is really first just starting to identify, okay, where are the friendships in my life? Who are the people God has put in this season of life for me? And let's write their names out. And then let's think about are there friendships that are good friendships, and they're believers, but we could go deeper. They're not really Christ-centered friendships, they're just good, great friends. I love that.

But how then can we take those friendships -- and my easiest favorite seed habit is, you know, I dare you today to text your top three friends and just say, hey, how can I be praying for you this week? They will feel so cared for. And then you gotta actually pray for them. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right, right.

Hanna Seymour: But that is the smallest, easiest way to just start saying, hey, I want to do this life with you, but in tandem with Christ. And so how can I be praying for you? How can I be supporting you and encouraging you in your journey with the Lord? How can we be -- you know, as iron sharpens iron, how can we be doing that for each other?

Jennifer Rothschild: And then what you've done is -- again it's building these seed habits because then you're praying.

Hanna Seymour: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I will say this, Hanna. One of the things I do with my phone, my text messaging app, is literally that's how -- one of the ways I do these disciplines of prayer is I'll just pray for the first five people that are on there, whoever my last five texts were.

Hanna Seymour: I love that.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's a way for me to have this list in front of me of, okay -- but to actually reach out and allow them to feel cared for and say, "What is your prayer?" I love that.

One of the things I do too -- I'll just mention to our listeners. I have a couple of really good friends, and I will literally text them and say, "What's your adjective today?" And what I'm saying is, I want you to give me one adjective to describe how you are, and then we will pray for each other's adjective. You know, I feel alone, I feel afraid, I feel happy. Well, thank you, Lord. I'm going to, you know, mourn with those who mourn, I'm going to celebrate with those who celebrate.

So there are creative ways, yeah, that you do have access to. But it's intentionality. Everything that you've talked about so far, Sister, is intentional. And it is worthy of taking five minutes to just sit down when this podcast ends and say, okay, how am I going to be intentional about what I've heard today?

And I can tell you one of the ways, 4:13ers, is to get Hanna's book, because it's chock full of practical ways, so you don't have to reinvent the wheel here. You can just take her advice. Because I can tell you live your advice, Hanna.

All right, Sister, we're going to get to our last question.

Hanna Seymour: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because there is someone listening right now and she does feel so spiritually dry. She's like, oh, my gosh, you just -- you know, that's so much to put on my spiritual to do list, and I'm already disconnected and overwhelmed. So help that listener know, what is the first tiniest step that she can take today when this podcast ends?

Hanna Seymour: So first let me say this. Spiritual growth, I don't believe -- I don't believe that it happens usually in big, dramatic moments. It grows through small, faithful habits practiced over time. And so these seed habits, they compound into a life of living faithfully with and for Christ.

So if you're just overwhelmed and, like, I don't even know where to start, first I would ask, where do you want to start? You know, is -- because, again, we want to make a habit that's small and easy. And the easiest habit is the one that you're drawn to. So is it I haven't cracked open my Bible in three months, but I kind of feel like that's what I should do? Okay. Well, pull out your phone -- because you got a Bible on that phone, I'm pretty sure -- and listen or read a few verses.

Or maybe it's I haven't talked to God. I don't remember the last time I prayed. Or I feel so much shame when I think about my prayer life and my lack of it. Okay. Well, let's just say goodbye to that shame -- shame is from the enemy -- and take a moment. The second that this episode is over, sit in 60 seconds of silence, of solitude with God, and pray. And again, the simplest prayer, Lord, I'm here. Hi. What do you have for me today? And just see where he leads.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, my friends, you heard her simple question. Where do you want to start? The easiest habit to begin is the one you are drawn to. So think about it. Pick one, if it's Scripture you need. Well, I loved this. Just open your Bible and put it next to your coffee maker. You just read one verse while the coffee is brewing. Or if it's prayer, you just spend 60 seconds in prayer while you wait for, you know, the microwave to warm up whatever it is you're warming up. Or you get a long prayer time if you're doing microwave popcorn. But just pray. Pray what Hanna suggested, "Lord, I am here."

Y'all, I just thought this was such practical guidance, and I'm just super grateful for reframing habits into small, tiny seeds rather than just what feels like these Mount Everests of effort. So go to the Show Notes to get her book and read the transcript, because you'll also be able to share it with someone easily from there. Because you know somebody also needs it just like we did. I needed it,. so...

All right, until next week, just remember, you can begin just one small habit, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can. Don't forget, you can too. See you next week.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Steward Biblical Self-Care? With Dr. Benjamin Espinoza [Episode 397]

Ben Espinoza: What if that time of solitude and prayer fueled his ministry? And I began to think about this quote from Martin Luther where he says, "I'm too busy not to pray." And that was a paradigm shift for me, right? It was as though -- you know, prayer and that relationship with God and that self-care sort of was like an aside for Jesus' ministry. But what if it fueled everything?

And I started to think about the two greatest commandments. Love God with everything that you are. And the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And when you look at the teachings of Jesus, it's there multiple times in the Gospels. He says do unto others as they would have them do unto you. So there really is that stewardship of self.

Jennifer Rothschild: What do you think of when you hear the words self-care? Well, let's be honest. Most of us think of massages and facials and -- well, me, naps. But is that really the kind of self-care that is going to sustain us in the long run? The truth is those are good things, but they're shallow, temporary fixes at best.

So today's guest, pastor and theologian Dr. Benjamin Espinosa, is going to take us beyond the surface level indulgences that dominate today's self-care culture, and instead he is going to present self-care as a deeply Christian practice rooted in our relationships with God, others, and society.

Ooh, you are about to discover that self-care is an act of faithfulness and stewardship. So let's hit it, KC.

KC Wright: KC, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends, we're so glad you're back with us today. Hope you've had a good week, that spring has sprung where you live. It's me and KC. We're here in the podcast closet. And we have one goal, and that's to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. And you know the drill. It's two friends and one topic and zero stress.

So I gotta give a big shoutout before we start talking about this topic. I am out again this month with Point of Grace for the Hope of Heaven Tour. So if you guys have not been able to come in March, you need to come in April to the Hope of Heaven Tour with me and Point of Grace. And you can find all that you need on the Show Notes, or you can just go to HopeOfHeavenTour.com or to my website, JenniferRothschild.com.

And you can get connected there, because I would love to see you as I'm out and about this spring. But I gotta tell you, we're talking self-care. And one of the best things that you can do to care for yourself is be spiritually fed. All right? So come to Hope of Heaven.

But I have got to tell you something about my friend KC. Okay. So back a couple months ago, we -- I remember texting you. It was Valentine's Day. And I remember texting you and telling you you're my favorite guy friend. Because KC, not so happily, calls Valentine's Day Single Awareness Day.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so, like, that's a day where, like, you need to be kind to yourself --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because that can be a rough day.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So he sends me, my friends, this verse. And I'm like, "Dude, you have got to post this on social media," because it cracked me up. And I thought, what a perfect way to manage your soul, is to laugh, right? And to relate to others, which is what we were doing. And that's what people are going to -- what we're going to be talking about today. But you posted on social media.

All right. So with no further ado, KC, tell them the verse that you posted on Valentine's Day as a single man. And then I want to know what some people said about it.

KC Wright: Isaiah 4:1, New Living Translation. "In that day so few men will be left that seven women will fight for each man, saying, 'Let us all marry you! We will provide our own food and clothing. Only let us take your name so that we won't be mocked as old maids.'" Talk about a verse of the day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, I claim it, Lord.

KC Wright: Oh, my gosh, that's an idea. Maybe we find all the funny Scriptures and put them in a daily calendar.

Jennifer Rothschild: That would be hilarious.

KC Wright: Wouldn't that be funny if that was a verse --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, pull them all out of context.

KC Wright: You'll never find this on a mug at Mardel's or Hobby Lobby.

But anyway, some of my friends -- of course, you know, Sweet Janice, "It'll be okay. You'll be okay. Love you."

Jennifer Rothschild: Sweet.

KC Wright: My friend, Kelly, "Seven women? Yikes! If I were you, I'd run like Joseph." My friend Patricia wrote, "Much better than Judges 9:53 that I read this morning. 'And a certain woman threw an upper millstone on Abimelech's head and crushed his skull.'" Oh, my goodness. And then Jeannie said, "I guess there are seven times more single women." Anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: My favorite part of that verse is the women are like, We'll get our own food and clothes. Just give us your name. I mean, that's hilarious.

KC Wright: But I want to talk about self-care.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Yes, talk.

KC Wright: I'm serious. You know, in my 20s and my 30s, I didn't even -- I didn't even know what self-care was.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But I don't know a better blessing you could bless yourself with would be J.R. and Point of Grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Right?

KC Wright: Because Point of Grace is like the Wilson Phillips of Christian music. And then J.R. and Point of Grace?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's gonna be awesome. That's what your soul needs.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. But in my world, I get blessed with a good haircut.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

KC Wright: You know, a good haircut and a beard trim and -- you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm not going to discuss my beard trimming. But that does happen post menopause.

KC Wright: But also just going to the gym one hour a day. Because, you know, they say if the plane's going down, you got to put the mask on yourself first.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

KC Wright: So self-care is important.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and that's what Dr. Ben is going to talk about today. That it's actually stewardship. It's actually stewardship of the bodies that God gave us. But it's more than just the facial or the gym.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Those are, like, the -- to me, those are like the icing on the cake. Because if you don't have the deeper stuff, like being nourished by God and others, and relationships and your community, then those don't satisfy. They only work when you really are caring for your soul as a steward.

So that was a great setup for this, so let's introduce Dr. Ben and get it moving.

KC Wright: Dr. Ben Espinoza is passionate about developing the next generation of leaders for the church and society. He currently serves as the lead pastor of Riverstone Church in Avon, New York, and previously served in a number of executive level roles at Roberts Wesleyan University in Rochester.

You are going to love this practical family conversation between Ben and Jennifer talking about Ben's latest book, "Good News About Self-Care." Here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Ben. I've looked forward to this conversation when I just read about your book. And here's my first thought. Okay? Because I'm an author. So anytime I notice someone has written a book on something, like for yours the stewardship of self-care, I wonder, hmm, sometimes the author writes books that they need to read, right?

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So my question is, what kind of experience have you had or what have you observed that made you realize, hey, I need to speak into this thing of self-care in the body of Christ?

Ben Espinoza: I appreciate that, Jennifer. It's such a joy and honor to be here with you today.

So this book emerged out of a really difficult experience -- set of experiences I had in 2020, which is everybody's favorite year, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Ben Espinoza: So in early 2020, let me give you a snapshot into what I was dealing with. So I was finishing up my doctoral dissertation, my wife was finishing up her doctoral dissertation. I had gotten this big administrative job at a Christian university here in New York, and my wife was pregnant with our second child, Elijah. And I started this new big job in 2020, early 2020, and in March of 2020 everything kind of fell apart with the COVID-19 pandemic.

So there we were finishing up our education, my wife was going to have our second kid, I was trying to get my feet under me at this new job, and the pandemic happened. And it was a really, really stressful time trying to, you know, handle all these things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Ben Espinoza: So in April of 2020 I started to get these bumps on my hands. And like any thoughtful, discerning, wise adult, I decided to go to Dr. Google and WebMD --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

Ben Espinoza: -- to tell me what was wrong with me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course. Your medical team.

Ben Espinoza: Exactly, exactly. So it came about that these bumps on my hands were just stress bumps. I put some lotion on it. That was okay, it was gone. And then about a month later I started to get these eye twitches. And I started to catastrophize about these things, Jennifer. And I was like, wow, is something really, really wrong with me?

So then after that, after I got the bumps relieved off my hands, after my eyes started twitching -- stopped twitching rather, I started to get this incredible back pain. And it just emanated to every single part of my body. So there I was in the thick of the pandemic, living with my in-laws, 'cause they live locally where the university is, trying to understand what's going on in the world. Just a really, really stressful time.

And, you know, when you go through really stressful times like that, Jennifer, you're not sleeping very much. And if you don't sleep very much, you know, reality and your imagination start to blend together in really unhealthy ways. So I was like, okay, I have to go see a doctor.

So I went and saw a doctor, and he ran a bunch of tests for me and told me that I had a clean bill of health and I was perfectly fine. And I was like, "Look, man, like, my life is falling apart here. My entire body hurts. Something bad is happening." And he was like, "Look, Ben, I think that too many good things are happening to you all at once. You are very, very busy, you are very, very stressed out, and you wrap all of that in a global pandemic, that's a recipe for disaster. You need to go get some help."

So I started to enter therapy, I started to enter some spiritual direction. And I've been a Christian my whole life and was really blessed by reading Scripture and reading what God had to say about Sabbath and solitude and rest, but it really didn't mean anything to me until I had that whole experience.

So the book that you have in your hands, "Good News About Self-Care," I talk about this journey of going from a very, very ambitious kind of person, graduating from college quickly, getting my doctorate quickly, getting all these different kinds of raises and promotions, and writing books at an early age, and realizing I had no idea how to care for myself, and in 2020 I paid the price.

So that's the story. That's where it came from. And the book is really about my journey and really stuff that I'm still working through, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Well, it is a lifelong work-through, because you don't change your inherent drive and your inherent intellect and what motivates you in life --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but you have to learn how to mitigate some of the harder benefits --

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of that kind of personality.

Ben Espinoza: Definitely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, you're speaking my language. This is my family. We're academic, we're -- I get you. I totally --

Ben Espinoza: Good. I like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I get you. Sadly, I get you. And that's part of the reason I wanted to have this conversation, because I think we're not the only ones.

Ben Espinoza: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes we think something's wrong with us. You know, here you had all these good things happening. And you're trying to do your best for your people, for your family, for the Lord, for your career --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and you're falling apart physically and you think, what is wrong with me? And the answer is nothing.

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's learning how to steward this. So I'm glad you've written this book. And we're going to unpack it.

So in this book that you've written, "Good News About Self-Care," you debunk some of the biggest misunderstandings that Christians often have about self-care. And so I'd like you to talk to us about what the myths we have about self-care are, because sometimes we think, well, I shouldn't need this if I've got Jesus.

Ben Espinoza: Right? Exactly. No, that's a really good question.

So some of the myths that I see out in culture, but particularly Christian culture today, is you don't need self-care. You are a sinner, you've got to repent, you got to give your life to Jesus and then give yourself over to the church and the ministry of other people. And there's a lot of truth to that. So that's one sort of idea that's out there.

The other idea is that self-care is sort of resistance against, you know, an oppressive society that just demands all of us all the time, and self-care is really sort of a mini form of resistance. And really I say these are all pretty good ideas, we don't need to throw any of them out.

But at the same time when I look at Jesus' life and ministry, this is somebody who is teaching, he's preaching, he's healing the sick, he's feeding the poor, he's preaching and proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom of God, and yet there are times when he decides to retreat to spend time with his Father to get more wisdom and insight and clarity.

There are times when he's enjoying fellowship with his disciples, with people in Levi -- Matthew, the tax collector's house. There are times when he's just enjoying fellowship with people. And he also had limits too. He understood that he was there for a certain amount of time for a very specific purpose.

So some of the myths out there are you shouldn't care about self-care because Jesus didn't care about self-care, you know, he gave his life for us. And yet when you look at Jesus' life and ministry, there is a lot of self-care that is taking place.

One of the things that I struggle with too, Jennifer, is the Apostle Paul. I mean, he's shipwrecked, he's cold, he's hungry, he's getting beaten up all the time, and yet you can see in his own life that he's spending time with people, that he's encouraging people to bear with one another, to love one another, to care for one another, just as Christ has called us to love and care for one another too. So those are some of the myths that I see out there.

And I'll say this too. That there are a lot of folks, I think, that like the idea of self-care, but don't know exactly where to start. And my hope in this book is, hey, baby steps. Let's just start to focus on some things that you know that you need to do better in your relationship with God and in your self-care. Let's just start walking this path together.

So those are a few of the ideas that I see out there in Christian culture today.

Jennifer Rothschild: I agree with all that, Ben. And I was thinking too, for me, one of the things that's hard for me -- I've gone through seasons where I'm like, oh, well, self-care is -- it's just indulgent. It's just selfish. Like, how can I waste time, valuable time, when people are dying and going to hell --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I just care about, you know, getting a facial.

But what I'm hearing from you is that self-care -- it's a lot more than bubble baths and facials and spa days or naps or whatever.

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think you're talking about something deeper.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So give us an understanding about what real self-soul care is.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely. So one of the things that you see in culture today is a focus on self-care as caring for the physical. As you said, it's Jacuzzis, it's bubble baths, it's facials, it's eating good food, resting, those kinds of things. And those are all very, very important. I do not want to, you know, diminish the importance of going to the spa and just having and just enjoying that time. But what I've found is that true self-care is really finding your joy and purpose in a relationship with the Lord.

So when you look at my book, there are four quadrants that I talk about, four different relationships. Number one is your relationship with God. Making sure that you're in the Word every single day, making sure that you're in communication with the Lord through prayer, making sure that you are spending time in worship and thanking God for everything that you have. So your relationship with God really, really does come first, and then you can talk about your relationship with yourself. So this is where I talk about physical self-care, emotional self-care, because there's a lot of emotional untangling that I find a lot of us really need to do.

And then I also talk about playfulness. And I coined this term "playlessness," because there are times when we're not very playful. We forget to enjoy life, enjoy the good things that God has given us, and I think we suffer as a result. So you have to care for your relationship with God, because if you don't have that right, if you're not in the Word every day, if you're not praying every day, if you're not living a life filled with worship or gratitude, then everything falls apart. It's like a house of cards. So you start with your relationship with the Lord, make sure that is strong. Then we can start to look at the physical, the emotional, the playful self-care.

And then we can start to look at our relationship with society. Because the messages that we get in society today, Jennifer, are, you know, you are not more than what you can produce. You are only as valuable as your contribution to society, right? And yet the Lord says that we are image bearers created in his image, worthy of respect and dignity and love and care. So this is why I talk about Sabbath as, like, a form of resistance against some of those rhythms -- right? -- to work the 70, 80 hours a week while neglecting all the other different kinds of relationships that we have, relationship with God, relationship with ourselves, relationship with our family.

I talk about putting limitations on our technology. Because social media can do some good things, as we know, but it can also be detrimental to our relationships and our sense of self-worth too.

And then finally I talk about our relationships -- right? -- our relationship with our mission in life. I talk about how many of us like the idea of having a life's mission, I was born to do this, and yet the reality is at different times in our lives we are called to do different things. It's, I have young kids, so I'm called to do this here; or my kids are out of the house, I'm called to do this; or this specific opportunity came up, I'm called to do this. We're called to love God and love neighbor wholeheartedly, but how that's manifested in our work and in our relationships changes over time. So we have to give attention to that. We have to care about our relationship with work and getting good work-life balance, making sure it's not overtaking our personal lives and our spiritual lives.

And then finally I talk about relationships that we might want to walk away from. You know, it's really difficult for us, Jennifer, because as Christians, you know, we're called to love and care for everybody, but there are specific instances in Scripture where you see that it is okay and almost preferable to walk away from certain relationships.

So to get back to your original question, then, true, deep self-care starts with a strong relationship with God, relationship with his Word, in prayer, with worship, with gratitude, and then everything else flows from there. Your sense of self-worth, your self-care, physical, emotional self-care, your relationship with society, how you interact with the rhythms of society and your relationship with other folks, that all stems from a strong relationship with God.

And as I mentioned, when you look at the secular resources that are out there, they almost always talk about the physical self-care. And they'll talk about your life's mission and knowing your limits and work-life balance and all that, and that's good. But I'm saying that unless you have a strong relationship with the Lord, everything else is gonna fall apart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, everything else just becomes like a numbing gel --

Ben Espinoza: It's true. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for the real problem --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you know?

Ben Espinoza: That's a good way to put it.

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[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: I will never forget sitting outside Dr. Engels' office right there in Borbe Hall at Palm Beach Atlantic University where he helped me take my statistic exams. Now, some people call statistics "sadistics." And let me just say, there is a reason for that. It was hard. And this was back in the day when computers and accessible software, they just weren't existent, or at least not what they are today. And so being blind, I literally could not navigate all the charts and formulas to pull off statistics.

So Dr. Engels, he would sit outside his office, because he was my stats professor, and he would read the exam to me. He would help me navigate charts and he would read me formulas so that I could take each of those tests. Amazing, right?

Well, that professor, he perfectly captures the spirit of the university where I graduated, Palm Beach Atlantic University.

PBA is a relationally caring, academically challenging, oh, and spiritually enriching university that you need to know about for your kids and your grandkids. But can I just say this? Palm Beach Atlantic University isn't just for your kids or grandkids. It can be for you also.

PBA offers online courses that you can enroll in bachelor's and master level programs that can fit your schedule, your goals, and your timeline. You gotta check it out, all in this amazing, caring Christian community.

So go to 413podcast.com/PBA to learn all you need to know. I promise you're gonna love, just like I know you're loving this conversation, so let's get back to it.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: As I'm hearing you explain this too, what I like is you kind of flip the paradigm upside down. Because a lot of times we think self-care is just, okay, I need to change my calendar, I need to have some downtime, or whatever it might be. But what you're saying is self-care is a mindset.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so to begin, Ben, with a relationship with the Lord and worship, I'll be honest, sometimes to me I feel like, okay, that's my duty, that's my spiritual discipline.

Ben Espinoza: That's right. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But what you're saying is if you really want to care for yourself, then you seek God and then you get your soul needs met right there first and foremost. And, of course, what blesses God blesses you.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, wow, what a good paradigm shift. And so I want you to make the connection, then, for us between living purposefully, caring for ourselves, and caring for and serving others. Okay? Make that connection. How do those things all go together?

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely. So let me go back to the life and ministry of Jesus. So as I mentioned, he's busy all the time. He's teaching, he's healing, he's preaching, he's recruiting his disciples, he's standing up to the Pharisees. He has a very, very robust life and ministry, and yet, as I mentioned, he retreats often to have talks with his father.

And to me, that is just so important. We often miss that. Because sometimes we'll say, okay, his business is really the business of the Kingdom, and then when he has some downtime, he'll go and talk with his Father. But in reality, one of the things that I talk about in the book is what if that time of solitude and prayer fueled his ministry?

And I began to think about this quote from Martin Luther where he says, "I'm too busy not to pray." And that was a paradigm shift for me. Right? It was as though -- you know, prayer and that relationship with God and that self-care sort of was, like, an aside for Jesus' ministry. But what if it fueled everything?

And I started to think about the two greatest commandments: love God with everything that you are, and then the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. And when you look at the teachings of Jesus, it's there multiple times in the Gospels. He says do unto others as they would have them do unto you. So there really is that stewardship of self.

And one of the things I talk about in the book too -- and actually, the original title of the book, the one that I pitched to my publisher, was "Honoring the Divine Image." Because when you look at us created in the image of God for a purpose worthy of value and dignity and care and love, we are called to steward the great resource that God has given us, which is our bodies, which is ourselves, right? And if we don't steward ourselves, if we don't steward our bodies and our souls and our minds and our relationships well, then nothing that we do can be stewarded, right?

So one of the things that we talk about a lot sort of in self-care circles is the analogy of the airplane mask, right? So, like, you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, putting on our mask first?

Ben Espinoza: Exactly. Put on your mask first before you help other people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Ben Espinoza: And it's such a cliche, but you know what, there's so much truth to that. Because unless you are healthy, unless you are prayed up, unless you understand God's Word, unless -- things are going well in your life, unless you care for yourself in a deep way, you're not going to be able to care for others. So that's the connection that I would make, Jennifer, is as image bearers, we need to make sure that we are in a strong relationship with God, that we are caring for ourselves in a deep way so that we can care for others, otherwise we're ministering out of something that we don't have.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. And then it becomes counterfeit --

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and fake and just the precursor to burnout.

Ben Espinoza: It's true. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, speaking of burnout -- okay? -- let's go back to 2020.

Ben Espinoza: Oh, wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're in the midst of all of this. Now here we are six years later, that little baby is five or six years old.

Ben Espinoza: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm curious, now that you have gone through the school of hard knocks, learning the reality of all of this, where are you now? What do you do with your life? How do you in a practical way experience self-care? And I believe it is a discipline. How do you exercise the discipline of self-care?

Ben Espinoza: Well, that's good. Yeah, so I'm very intentional, so every morning is prayer, it's Bible study, it's writing in a gratitude journal that I have about the things that I'm grateful for. And I pray for people in my church, pray for people in my community. If I say I'm going to pray for you, I have to write it down so I remember. So that morning routine is very, very important.

Most of the time it's going and hitting up my punching bag. You know, somebody asked me, "So you're a boxer?" And I said, "I don't think I'd call it that. I just put on gloves and I go punch something for 20 minutes."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Ben Espinoza: It sounds really angry, but it's -- actually, I get a lot of joy out of it. You burn a lot of calories and everything. So it's really trying, like, to follow my own advice here of making sure I have a strong, solid foundation with God in the very beginning of the day, making sure that I'm caring for myself and getting in the right sort of physical head space, and then looking at my relationship with society and thinking more about different pauses that I can have throughout my day. If I'm in the middle of a big project, I need to take a break or two to remind myself, okay, I'm more than my project. You know, if this succeeds, amen, I'm so glad for that. If it fails, I am more than what I produce, right?

And then also it comes back to your relationships and making sure that I have strong, healthy relationships, people that can build me up in my walk with Christ, who can hold me accountable. So, you know, I have several friends that I go to for that. There are a couple friends I talk to weekly just as an accountability measure. Hey, what's going well? What are you struggling with? How can I pray for you? These kinds of things.

And I say this at the very end of my book, Jennifer. I'm not perfect at this, sort of that -- like we'd talked about, when you're an academic, when you're in ministry, you want to serve, you want to do, you want to create, you want to build, and that tendency is just so real to all of us. So it's something that I'm still working through.

And even when I was writing this book -- I mention this at the very end of the book. Maybe I'm too honest in my book, Jennifer. I don't know. But I mentioned this. It's like, you know, I probably stayed up way too late to write the chapter on physical self-care. It's like, you know what, I shouldn't do that. I shouldn't do that. So I'm learning. I'm learning.

Like you said, Jennifer, it's one of those things that's a -- it is a lifelong pursuit of learning how to do well. But that's the relationship with Christ, right? It's something that we're going to be continuing to hone throughout the rest of our lives. So I'm nowhere near perfect, but those are some of the rhythms that I have in my life today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't think any of us want to read a book from someone who's standing up at an ivory tower saying, "I have perfected this --

Ben Espinoza: Oh, exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- let me lead you therefore."

Ben Espinoza: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think we'd rather have a guide walking us through who's just maybe a step ahead and stumbles every now and then --

Ben Espinoza: That's what I tell people.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and so I appreciate that honesty.

Ben Espinoza: I'm glad.

Jennifer Rothschild: I appreciate that honesty. And I think we all do struggle. And you know what? I think it's a worthy struggle too, Ben --

Ben Espinoza: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we want to live in that tension of --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of serving Christ well, serving others well, and still taking care of us. We don't want it to be so easy to just self-indulge or give up our lives in a martyrdom sort of way --

Ben Espinoza: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- for others.

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it's a good tension to have.

I appreciate the practicality of the book too, so --

Ben Espinoza: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. I can't wait. We're going to have at the very end, y'all listening, a link to his book, to Ben's book, "The Good News About Self-Care."

And by the way, one more thing. If I were on your publicity committee or your PubCo, I would have so chosen the "Honoring the Image of God In You." I love that concept. Or the Divine Image --

Ben Espinoza: Noted.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- whatever you called it. I love that. I love that.

Ben Espinoza: "Honoring the Divine Image," yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: "Honoring the Divine Image." That's what we're doing when we take care of ourselves. Yeah --

Ben Espinoza: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we belong to him.

Okay, we're going to get to our last question, brother.

Ben Espinoza: Great.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So you addressed very clearly, which I appreciate, what your book explores, which is this self-care exploration through these dimensions of our relationship with God first, then self, then society and others. Okay. So some of us have listened, and we got some Type A's. They are taking notes, they're like, okay, I gotta do this, I gotta do this.

Ben Espinoza: Oh, yeah. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So let's end with this. How can we begin to apply this, like today when the podcast ends, without getting totally overwhelmed?

Ben Espinoza: I appreciate that. So what I would do is just baby steps. We know what we struggle with. If you're not in God's Word every day, get in God's Word five, ten minutes. Just pick one of the Gospels, start reading through that. Start to submit your life to what God has to say through his Word. Start small.

If you don't have a regular prayer life, go ahead and start praying for a few things. If you don't have a regular worship life, if you don't have a gratitude journal, start doing those kinds of things. Start with baby steps. You know, it doesn't need to take a lot of time. You know, if we have a lot of time to spend in God's Word, great. That would be wonderful. But I'd encourage people to start with these small things.

And we know our tendencies, right? If your tendency is to go, go, go, go, go, stay up late, wake up early, then I would encourage you, try and focus on your sleep patterns, right? What's keeping you up late? What's getting you up early? You know, go see a doctor. Get a checkup if you haven't. Really figure out if you have, like, some sort of physical issue going on.

And I would also look at your rhythms of Sabbath. And when I talk about Sabbath, people are like, okay. You know, I'm so busy. I'm working three or four jobs just to try to make ends meet here, Ben. Are you asking me to take a day off? And I usually say, if you can, go ahead and do that and spend it wisely. But if you can't, you know, try and find pockets of time where you can spend recovering that sense of joy and recovering a relationship with the Lord there.

And then finally I would say look at the rhythms of your life and say, okay, what gives me deep joy, what gives me purpose, and what detracts from that, and really do that work of evaluation. So it doesn't need to be perfection. I'm still working on this six years later, Jennifer.

But I would encourage somebody, as soon as you get off the call, if you haven't cared for any of these dimensions, your relationship with God, yourself, with society, with others, then start to look at one of those and start to really try and figure out what rhythms you can get into your life today that will help. And start small and be gracious with yourself, because you're not going to perfect it. I still haven't. Jennifer, as holy as you are, you will not.

Jennifer Rothschild: No way.

Ben Espinoza: And neither will any of your listeners. But we can try. We can do it because it really is about stewarding this gift that God has given to the world, which is us.

So those are a few ways I would say. Just take baby steps. Go easy on yourself. And I think over time those habits are going to form and shape you in a powerful way.

KC Wright: Think of the dimensions he listed. Which one needs the most attention? Pick one and start small.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's a good word. And like Ben said, be gracious to yourself, you know? Most importantly, take baby steps. First and foremost, though, you start in God's Word, even if it's just five minutes a day, and then do what the Word says and pray.

And, you know, I loved what he said too, KC, about, like, going to bed early, getting up early, because I think there's some of you out there, you know, you may be a late-night person and an early riser all at once. And so -- you also could be a person who maybe just drives in the fast lane all the time.

You know, I thought as Ben was saying all that -- my brother Lawson is a therapist. He's fantastic. And one of his things he always challenges his client, consider your opposite impulse. So, like, if you're always going 100 miles per hour, what is the opposite impulse of that? Slowing down. If you stay up late and get up early, what's the opposite impulse of that? Well, you go to bed a little earlier or you sleep a little later, whatever. But I think that's an important thing to consider.

KC Wright: This is a book that needs to be read for sure. This can be your first step actually to some self-care. And because we care about your self, we're giving one away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: So simply go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/397 to register to win and read a transcript. And, of course, you can go straight to Jennifer's Insta @jennrothschild to enter to win Ben's book "The Good News About Self-Care."

All right, I will say this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Say it.

KC Wright: You did this already today. You showed good care for yourself by joining us here at The 4:13.

Jennifer Rothschild: True.

KC Wright: You are caring for your soul every time you tune in, and we are so thankful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: So until next week, care well for yourself because God cares for you. One translation says he cares for you affectionately. He cares for you so deeply. You can be a good steward of your self-care, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: Okay. If you're going to do some self-care today, J.R., what are you going to do?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, what am I going to do?

KC Wright: What are you going to do to bless yourself?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I'm going to eat a grilled cheese sandwich.

KC Wright: Because you do work all the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do work all the time. But you know what? I like to work.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like, it brings me joy.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I love grilled cheese sandwiches. I'm gonna eat a grilled cheese sandwich. And you know what I do, KC?

KC Wright: Yeah?

Jennifer Rothschild: I put a slice of cheddar, I put a slice of Colby, and I put a slice of pepper jack.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: That right there is some self-care.

KC Wright: Oh, that is.

4:13 Podcast: Behold and Be Held - Easter Reflections [Episode 396]

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, 4:13ers. This is a wonderful weekend, and I'm so glad you're hanging out with me and KC. This is Jennifer. And it's Good Friday, or it's about to be, depending on when you're listening. Or maybe we've just experienced it and now we are experiencing the celebration of resurrection.

So wherever you are in this beautiful Holy Week celebrating Christ's resurrection, we're so glad you're celebrating it with us. We do want to behold the Lamb today, and we know that what we behold, we will be held by.

We have got just a special time for your heart today, because we have a singer, Layne Victoria, with us, and she is going to lead us to the heights of worship and take us to the depths of gratefulness as she sings over us "Behold the Lamb."

So let's get this Easter reflection started, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. So glad you are with us. KC and I are in the closet. We just wanted to pop in and give some Easter reflections because we want you to be spending time with your family.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Maybe you're doing Easter egg hunts, maybe you're at a service for Holy Week for Good Friday. Whatever it is you're doing, thanks for letting us pop in.

Layne Victoria is a singer-songwriter, and she is going to sing over you just to prepare your heart and allow you just to experience the gratefulness of the beauty of Easter and what it means to behold the Lamb.

But speaking of lambs, because you're a pastor, KC, Easter is like the Olympics for you. It's a big weekend.

KC Wright: Okay. Yes, Easter is the Super Bowl for any pastor.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

KC Wright: I'm here to tell you, I'll never forget this past Christmas service. You know, you're driving home and you're like, "Oh, we got through that Christmas service." And my daughter, who I call the Holy Spirit with a hair-do, she goes, "Easter's next." And honestly, you start planning for your Easter service in January.

Jennifer Rothschild: You really do.

KC Wright: You really do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

KC Wright: I'll never forget my very first Easter as a lead pastor. I've always been your college pastor, your youth pastor. But now I'm like, oh, wow. Lord help.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm in charge.

KC Wright: Well, I always say Jesus is the Great Shepherd.

But I had in my mind -- we had vision of our parking lot turning into a small carnival, because it's all about families and kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And so we had the bouncy houses and the snow cones and all the things, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Aw, that's fun.

KC Wright: And the photo booth and all that. But we wanted a petting zoo. And -- okay, let me rephrase that. I wanted a petting zoo for the kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC did, yes.

KC Wright: So I went to Orscheln's -- or Tractor Supply now. Or whatever.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. One of those places.

KC Wright: A farming store.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: I bought a bunch of bunnies and chickens and ducks.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Ones with heartbeats and feet?

KC Wright: Real ones.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Because I pictured a little fenced-in area, and the kids can come up. And then, by the way, you talk about some cute pictures. Picture these kids now in their Easter outfits holding bunnies and ducks and chickens. Nothing is more cuter.

Jennifer Rothschild: You're right. That's adorable.

KC Wright: But me being the sanguine personality, I'm like, "Let's do this." There's no business like show business, right? And so, you know, you -- an extrovert always does that. Then you have to have a reality check.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's why you and I work together.

KC Wright: Perfectly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Because I could finish the gig. I can almost tell you how I know it ended.

KC Wright: So souls were saved, baptisms happened. The Easter photos happened, everyone left with gifts. And we're leaving the church parking lot, and I'm like, "Hold on. What are we going to do with all these chickens? What are we going to do with all these chickens?"

Jennifer Rothschild: KC.

KC Wright: And so, praise God, I had to sit in that parking lot for a while and text some church members. And I found homes for the chickens. Which, by the way, are still alive, producing eggs for our church family.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, see, that's the gift that keeps giving.

KC Wright: And then I found a home for the ducks. And that rabbit, that bunny, that came home with us. Elly twisted my arm. We had Leo for a long, long time.

Jennifer Rothschild: I remember Leo. I did not realize that Leo's origin story was the petting zoo.

KC Wright: And I'm here to tell you parents, if your kid is begging for a rabbit, don't do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Say no.

KC Wright: Don't do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just say no.

KC Wright: Are they cute? Are they adorable? Do they make the best photos? All the yeses. But they are so nasty.

Jennifer Rothschild: And they -- yes.

KC Wright: Yeah, they are so nasty. And that cage, oh, needs cleaned and -- ooooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ugh.

KC Wright: Anyway, they belong in the great outdoors.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, they do, where God created them to be. Yes. Little Bunny Foo Foo -- we all know the song -- he doesn't live in your living room.

KC Wright: But, you know, as parents, we end up taking care of the pets --

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

KC Wright: -- not the kids.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course.

KC Wright: But anyway, yeah, I've got lots of Easter memories. But I will tell you -- you know how much I love Christmas. I love Easter even more.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I do too. Well, it's the pinnacle of our faith.

KC Wright: It is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's where it all matters. And that's why I think, KC, it's so important for us just to take a minute and really behold the Lamb, behold him.

And part of the reason I wanted us to behold the Lamb -- well, I mean, those were the words of John the Baptist -- right? -- when he's baptizing and he sees Jesus walking up. And, like, with this astonishment in his voice, he says, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." And I think what we need to realize is all Jesus had done at that point was walk up. We think, well, when he died on the cross, he took away our sins. No. His whole reason for existence here incarnate was to take away the sins of the world.

That's what he's done for us, y'all. That's why we need to behold the Lamb.

And, you know, I was thinking, KC, because -- I was part of a Bible study called "The Names of God." It'll be out in August of this year. It's a Lifeway product with many authors, you know, like Kristi McClelland, Kelly Minter --

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- me, several others. Okay. And I got to teach on the Lord of Hosts, which meant I also used Psalm 46. Well, there's this verse in Psalm 46:8 that says, "Come behold the works of the Lord." And then it goes on to list how he makes desolations in the earth, how he cuts the spear in two, he breaks the bow in half, he burns the chariot with fire, like, he explains the works of the Lord. But the first part of that verse says, "Just come behold the works of the Lord."

And as I really studied that, I thought we have to conscientiously fixate on, focus on, behold the works of the Lord, behold the Lamb, because what we behold, we will be held by. Like, what we attach our gaze to, what we fix our mind on is going to hold our attention. It's going to hold our very souls --

KC Wright: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- our very essence, you know, when you think about it.

So in college I was a psych major, so I'm always loving psychology theories. And this whole concept of beholding something so that you will be held by it, I mean, psychology proves it out. There's this thing called the mere exposure effect. Okay.

So this originated in the '60s. And what it asserts is that the more that we're exposed to something -- okay? -- the more we like it. So in other words, familiarity is going to breed preference. So that means you just keep repeating your exposure to something and it's going to increase your desire for that thing. All right?

Now, here's the dark side. That is also going to apply to unvirtuous familiarities. Like, whatever you behold, you're going to be held by. So just think of the negative side of that, what that means. We all know what that means.

And so that means we've got to keep just increasing our exposure to God's works, to God's Son, to God's truth. We got to behold the Lamb. Because what we behold, we will be held by. It's like we just need to get enamored by Jesus, you know, just captivated by him, and then he will hold our hearts.

And so that's what the purpose of Easter is. Yes, we behold the works of the Lord, that the power of God raised Jesus from the dead. Yes, we behold the works of the Lord, that God himself became man, sacrificed himself for us so that we could know him. Yes, we behold the works of the Lord, we behold the Lamb.

And the fact that Jesus, the Lamb of God, he was the only one who could carry our sins and who could bear our sins. And that means, our friends, when we behold the Lamb, we are going to be held by the truth; therefore, we don't have to carry our sin anymore. We don't have to bear the heavy load of our sin because Jesus did it for us.

So as you're contemplating that, I'm just going to ask KC to pray over us just a brief prayer that we will behold the Lamb. And as he gets to the end of that prayer, you're going to begin to hear Layne Victoria sing over us to let the eyes of our heart really behold the Lamb.

KC Wright: Father, we love you so much. I pray that we would all keep our eyes locked on you, the author and the finisher of our faith. That we would fall more in love with you like never before. That we would be like Paul, who said, "For my determined purpose is to know you." That is beholding you and being held by you.

Lord, we love you. We thank you for Easter. We thank you for Resurrection Sunday. We thank you that we can boldly say, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" Because when death stung death, it stung itself to death, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, Lord.

KC Wright: Father God, we thank you that you defeated death, you defeated hell, you defeated the grave, and we behold you today. We love you, we praise you, we glorify you. We thank you that you're our risen King, our risen Savior. We love you, Jesus. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Layne Victoria (Singing):

You spoke the world in motion, breathed life into the void.
You speak from on your throne and all nature knows your voice.

The Word made flesh among us, Creator cloaked in rags.
Fulfilled the Father's purpose, the plan of ages past.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.
Saints and angels crying worthy, all praise unto the Lamb.

Pure hands that hold all power on a cursed Roman cross.
And in that sacred hour, we thought all hope was lost.

But you trampled death and darkness, put every foe to shame.
You rose to life victorious and all shall know your name.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.
Saints and angels crying worthy, all praise unto the Lamb.

One day we'll stand in glory, behold Him face to face.
We'll tell the wondrous story, by his stripes we're saved.

We'll join the song of heaven, O crown the King of Kings.
The gates of hell will tremble at the sound of the redeemed.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.
Saints and angels crying worthy, all praise unto the Lamb.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.
Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.

This Gospel won't be silenced, your kingdom stands through time.
We trust our Rock the Lion, all honor be to Christ.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy,

The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Holy, Holy, Holy, Holy, all praise unto the Lamb.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Understand Spiritual Warfare? Dr. Joel Muddamalle [Episode 395]

Joel Muddamalle: Spiritual warfare is -- and I think this is actually seen pretty prolifically in the Garden of Eden. The issue isn't simply about the appearance of the serpent, the issue is about the substance of what comes out of the mouth of the serpent. It creates doubt.

And so the issue here is, like, oh, angelic beings, supernatural beings, would come to and fro from Eden, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve -- this is in Genesis 3. But what was uncommon, what was, like, odd, is for somebody to dare challenge the integrity and the character of Yahweh, of God, the goodness of God, to introduce doubt into relationship.

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know that God has both a heavenly and a human family? Have you ever thought about that? Well, me neither. Not until this insightful conversation with author and theologian Joel Muddamalle.

On today's episode, Joel is going to give you some straight-up sound Bible teaching that is going to cut through all the confusion that lots of us have about spiritual warfare. You are going to get a biblical and balanced understanding. So no matter what you've heard or been taught about this topic, oh, I promise you are about to get a brilliant framework for winning this unseen battle. So are you ready?

Here we go, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, our friends. Did you hear that voice? If you're here every week, you know we have missed KC.

KC Wright: Oh, it was only two weeks.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. Well, you know what, though?

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Technically --

KC Wright: Technically.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- it was even more because I did those conversations with my sons.

KC Wright: You're right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, like, people are in KC withdrawal right now because that's, like, four episodes in a row.

KC Wright: It's great to be back in the saddle again. And can I just say, you are looking -- oh, my goodness. You're looking fresh, you're looking sly.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm looking light blue, aren't I?

KC Wright: You're looking -- I love those sassy glasses.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so --

KC Wright: She's got sassy glasses.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, describe them. They're rectangle, right?

KC Wright: They are. And I noticed them as soon as I walked in. They've got a beautiful light tint blue that actually, in J.R. style, I'm telling you, match her pants right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Her pants.

KC Wright: And her shoes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Thank you

KC Wright: And her shoes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: I'm telling you, I come over here and I'm -- I live in gym attire. I'm in a Nike ball cap right now, a hoodie, and I'm wearing, like, gym pant things, whatever they are. Joggers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, joggers.

KC Wright: And J.R., every time I come over here, she's dressed for television.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no, I'm not. Well, so let me tell you why I'm wearing my light blue glasses. Okay. Well, first of all, let me say this.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, we've had the Hope of Heaven Tour. It's going on. And I've told all the ladies who come to the Hope of Heaven Tour to wear blue. And there's a reason.

KC Wright: Oh, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because of the blue flower. And if y'all don't know about this, you need to do the Heaven Bible study or come -- even better -- to the Hope of Heaven Tour. You can still come in April. But it's -- I call it the color of heaven, so, of course, so I'm always attracted to blue.

But I'm wearing these light blue tinted shades right now because -- I didn't tell anybody this, because, you know, when you're in the middle of it, it's hard to discuss it. But I started the new year with a bad situation with my eyes. I thought it was a migraine. It turned out to be what they call -- oh, what did they call it? Acute angle closure glaucoma.

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Anyway, it was like -- I thought my eye was going to explode out of my head, and technically it probably would have. So what happens, KC, is we have natural eye pressure in our eyes, which should be 20 or below. Mine was 75.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: So here's the thing. If I could have seen, like, if I did have some eyesight, it would have damaged my sight. But there's a silver lining; it didn't. But anyway, it was very significant. And it ended up with having to go to the emergency room, some treatments. I was actually in Florida, so I had two emergency treatments. Then I had to fly home by myself, because Phil's parents were so sick -- which, by the way, let me give that little -- they both died within 25 days of each other, which we did not anticipate.

So this was also in the month of January. I came home and ended up having two eye surgeries. They corrected -- well, they did what they could to fix the left eye. But then they went ahead and did surgery on the right eye because they knew it was going to happen to that one eventually. So anyway, the month of January was quite a thing.

But here I am in March, and my eye -- my left eye, which was the most damaged one, is still dilated. So it has terrible light sensitivity. Which is a weird thing with blindness, because I can't see light, but my eye can still perceive it. So if you imagine what it's like being out on a really bright day or with your eyes dilated and seeing sun, it's painful.

So that's why I'm sporting some nifty shades. And I'm still not wearing mascara. I still will try to do it, but I'm trying to protect because I've got new lenses and new all sorts of stuff in my eyes. So anyway, there you go. That's my story.

KC Wright: My goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: But there is also always a fashion remedy to every situation.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's my silver lining, is I'm sporting cute glasses and not wearing mascara. Life is good.

But anyway, I did just gloss over real quickly, and I will say this. Phil's parents -- his dad died on Christmas Eve, his mother died, well, the day before my first surgery, January 18th. And Phil was such a stud. I mean, the way he took care of his parents and walked them Home was beautiful. And to see how he has grieved with hope, which is how we do grieve according to Scripture, it's been a beautiful thing. So, yeah, the Lord was good.

But I will be honest. I'm just now into my new year, here I am late March, because I decided it didn't start till February.

KC Wright: Right. I'm with you. Hey, lots of prayers for our Rothschilds, and lots of tears shed. And I'm just so proud of both of you, how you just keep standing and your faith is so strong and the ministry goes forward. And we don't grieve as those with no hope --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, we don't.

KC Wright: -- right?

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't.

KC Wright: But you're battle tested, which makes you stronger, which makes all of us stronger.

Jennifer Rothschild: It does.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And not only are we battle tested, but we were victorious before it started.

KC Wright: Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And listen, we didn't do that on purpose, but what a perfect segue, KC, to what we're talking about today.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because Joel is going to talk to us about this unseen battle that we're always fighting. Where it came from, why it's a thing, and, even better, why it is not thing because we are victorious. So, yeah, let's get to Joel. Because I had a long conversation, and I want you guys to hear every bit of it from Dr. Joel Muddamalle.

KC Wright: Dr. Joel Muddamalle is the Director of Theology and Research at Proverbs 31 Ministries and the theologian in residence for Haven Place Ministries. He also co-hosts the popular podcast, it's called Therapy & Theology. Joel serves on the preaching team at Transformation Church with Pastor Derwin Gray and is the author of "The Hidden Peace." He lives in Charlotte, North Carolina, with his wife, their four children, and dog.

Here's Dr. Joel and Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Joel. I already told you before we got on mic how happy I am that you're back with us. And we're going to link to your last conversation that we had together because it was so good. But this one, I told you, I'm looking forward to it because of the subject.

So let me just ask you this first off. Okay. Sometimes we're a little wary or maybe freaked out about spiritual warfare conversations because sometimes it feels like, well, hyperbolic or sensational or maybe scary or just a little out of our league. So let's start with a biblically sound and healthy framework of what spiritual warfare is.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. One, Jennifer, thank you for having me and for this conversation. I think it's important.

I would say that a definition for spiritual warfare -- I kind of like to simplify things down to its kind of very foundation. And so I want to start with what is the story of Scripture? So the story of Scripture is simply -- and if I were to just, like, very -- like I explain this to my kids, you know. If I were to explain this to my kids -- and I do. I've got four kids that are 14, 12, 10, and 5. And so my daughter Emmy the other day was like, "Daddy, tell me about Jesus. Like, why do we read the Bible? Why do we go to church?"

And this is what I would say to her, and I did say to her. I said, "Babe, the story of Scripture is a story of a good dad who wants to have his family back together. And the way in which he gets his family back together is through his son, Jesus." And so that simple kind of statement is simple, but far from simplistic, because it kind of sets the stage for the question and the conversation around spiritual warfare.

The reality is that God is a good father, who's also the king of heaven and earth. Right? Like, he is the cosmic king. And he made his royal children -- Genesis 1:26-27 -- in his likeness and in his image, and yet sin and chaos and evil creates a series of separations between God and humanity. One theologian, I think, helpfully says "despoils Shalom," creates hundreds of thousands of ruptures in the created order that God always intended to be together.

And so spiritual warfare is simply this reality that there are two competing households. You have the household of God and then you have what Paul talks about in Ephesians as the sons of disobedience and elsewhere the prince of the power of the air. You have the reality of evil forces that absolutely hate God, and they hate us, and they want to work through deception, division, and destruction.

And so when we talk about spiritual warfare, I think it's really helpful for us to frame it within the conversation of a good dad who's determined to have his family back together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I love that picture. And you just mentioned that the big idea is that God has both this supernatural and human family.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So unpack that just a little more so that -- because I know for some, as you said that, that was like -- they're still processing. So unpack that a little more for us, Joel.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah, absolutely. Often I think sometimes we come to the Bible with our kind of 21st Century understanding of Scripture or just what things have been told to us. And one of the things I've been passionate about in my book "The Unseen Battle" is to read the Bible on its own terms and to try to, for a moment, be hesitant to jump into the Bible with our own preconceived notions. So I just want to kind of jump from the text from the Scripture.

So this idea that God has a heavenly family and a human family might be, like, odd to some people, but let me just read from Ephesians 3:14-16. It says this: "For this reason, I kneel before the Father" -- look at those familial terms -- "from whom" -- this is so wild, Jennifer -- "from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name."

And so in the New Testament, Paul already presumes an understanding that God is a father, and as a father he has, what I try to argue in "The Unseen Battle," a two-family household. This household is made up of supernatural beings and humanity.

And the other evidence for this -- and we can go kind of wherever you'd like to go. But one of the distinctive phrases throughout the Old Testament to describe a part of God's family or these heavenly beings is the Hebrew phrase "sons of God." The Hebrew term there is "bene Elohim." And it's framed in the context of family. You've got sons of the Most High God. And in the context -- like, if you look at Job 1 through 2 or Job 1 and then 2, I think it's the first two verses of Job 2, and then it's Job 1, I think, like, 6 through 7 or 6 through 8, or Job 38:4-7, you have the exact same phrase, "bene Elohim," to describe a divine council scene where God is king and he's kind of doing his business as a king. And then you've got these angelic beings who are described as his sons, his children.

And so that kind of sets the framework for us to recognize that, once again, God is a good father, who's also a king, and he relates to humanity and all of creation-- I think it's kind of important -- not as a distant, disconnected, far-off deity, as all the other competing myths of the time, ancient or Eastern.

Think about the Mesopotamian and the Cainite myths, you know. Even in the New Testament, you get -- the Hellenistic world grows, and you've got Greek mythology and Roman mythology. And all of these deities are, like, almost bothered by humans, you know? And it's really fascinating to me because it's like all humanity wants to do is try to just get a glimpse of the deities' attention, try to just get them to pay attention. And the story of Scripture is the complete opposite. It's about a God who would dare to enter into humanity through the incarnation, through his son Jesus, and he's working in intimate ways and relating with all of creation in an intimate way.

And so hopefully that gives just a 30,000-foot kind of view that these are actually not new or novel ideas. In fact, we have -- in the 1st Century you've got Paul, and then you have Peter and James that are all -- and even in the letter Jude, you have this same understanding that's being presented. And in the medieval time with the church fathers, you get the same kind of concept that's happening with Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen, where they just kind of received and understood the cosmic element of the Scriptures.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is really good. And so much. And for so many right now, it could be a paradigm -- I was going to -- not even shift. A paradigm breaker and re-creator.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So in a moment I do want us to talk a little bit about the heavenly family, the angels, the divine council, that thing. Okay? So let's press pause on that part because I want us to go back to that. But in this family vein that you're talking about -- okay? -- that makes so much sense. I get it, I'm resonating. And so with any family, with any father, sometimes the children rebel.

Okay. So I know that in your book you talk about three rebellions in Genesis.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Which are, I think, Eden, the flood generation, and Babel. So you contend that -- like, you frame this conflict -- these rebellions actually frame this conflict we live in right now.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So kind of give us an understanding of that.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. So I did my Ph.D. under two incredible scholars. My first reader is a guy named Dr. Patrick Schreiner. Patrick is a New Testament scholar, has done incredible work, "The Ascension." His dad, Tom Schreiner, is kind of like a prolific legend in Pauline studies.

And then my second reader was an Old Testament legend. His name was Dr. Michael Heiser. Mike was a Hebrew Semitic scholar. I kind of joke about Mike. Mike -- you know, it's -- original languages, Jennifer, it's like you're great if you can have a conversation and you're kind of thinking in the original language. You're a whole different level of intuition with the original languages when you can tell jokes in the language.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And Mike would, like, dream in Hebrew and Greek and Semitic languages, like -- he was that type -- I mean, he just was a legend, just so brilliant.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And so Mike was my second reader. He wrote an incredible book called "The Unseen Realm," which obviously you can kind of hear the title play off of words. In fact, my book "The Unseen Battle" was dedicated to Mike. As I was finishing my dissertation, Mike was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and I ended up being the very last Ph.D. student that he saw across the finish line. And defended my dissertation underneath him, and then, sadly, tragically he passed a couple years after that.

And so this idea of the three rebellions is actually something that Mike once said to me that absolutely shook me. Because I kind of grew up in the church. My grandparents are missionaries in India. All I've ever really known is the story of Jesus kind of all around me. And yet once Mike said -- and he's kind of famous for this statement. He said, you know, when you ask a Christian today why is there so much evil in the world, they would go, "Well, Genesis 3." Like, Genesis 3 and the fall. And then Mike would say, "That's so true."

But if you asked a person who lived in the Second Temple period, it is the time period of the second temple that was constructed and kind of those -- what we refer to as the 400 years of silence was anything but silent for many of the Jewish people who were trying to write and make sense of where they were in human history and what was taking place in the Old Testament. So there's a lot of writing that took place in that kind of 400 years.

And so if you asked a person who lived in that time period, "Why is there so much evil in the world?" they would respond, "Oh, you know, Genesis 3, absolutely." But, hey, don't forget that odd story in Genesis 6 with the sons of God and human women and the issue of the Nephilim. And then for sure don't forget about the Tower of Babel fiasco and the rebellion that took place there and the origin story of the gods of the nations.

And so this actually helps us, and it helps us, I think, today frame what spiritual warfare is. Because in each of these rebellions, you find rebellion in two spheres of existence, both the supernatural realm, which is, you know, God's angelic family or supernatural family, and the human family.

And so in Eden you have this serpent that shows up. The Hebrew phrase is "nachash." And that word in Hebrew can mean a guardian cherubim. It can mean a fiery bronze image and a literal serpent. I tend to believe all three are at play there. Jennifer, I don't know if you've ever kind of wondered, how come Eve doesn't just freak out when a snake starts talking?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Yeah. Because we would. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: Absolutely. Well, in the ancient world, whenever an animal started to speak, this was an indication that the gods were speaking, that there was some supernatural element to it. And also, if we remember, there are two guardian cherubim that are placed outside of Eden to protect Eden after the fall.

And so part of spiritual warfare is -- and I think this is actually seen pretty prolifically in the Garden of Eden. The issue isn't simply about the appearance of the serpent, the issue is about the substance of what comes out of the mouth of the serpent. It creates doubt. And so the issue here is like, oh, angelic beings, supernatural beings, would come to and fro from Eden. God walked and talked with Adam and Eve. This is in Genesis 3.

But what was uncommon, what was, like, odd is for somebody to dare challenge the integrity and the character of Yahweh, of God, the goodness of God, to introduce doubt into relationship. And so you have supernatural rebellion with the serpent, but you also have human rebellion because they succumb to that deception.

I always wonder, Jennifer, what would have happened if even Adam -- if they're like, You know what, Nachash, that's a really good question. You know what? Every day, at the cool of the evening breeze, Yahweh comes and takes a walk with us. Just hang out for a second, and why don't you wait until Yahweh shows up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Wow.

Joel Muddamalle: What's the serpent going to do? Run for its dang life, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: Like, it's not going to stick around.

Jennifer Rothschild: He can't appear before Yahweh. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: Exactly. And so the issue here is that Adam and Eve entertain a curious thought, and that curious thought leads them into temptation and doubt of the goodness of God. So you've got rebellion one.

Then rebellion two is Genesis 6, the phrase "sons of God." The clearest understanding of the sons of God from my perspective -- and there are theologians and scholars who would disagree with this interpretation. And I deal with that in my book and try to give a response to those views. The common kind of human view of Genesis 6 is what was referred to as the Sethite view. I personally don't think the Sethite view is convincing for a couple of reasons.

One, you have to kind of impose a lot of things into that. The Hebrew term "Adam" means humanity. And in Genesis 6:1-2, you would have to then say that humanity in the first instance is the righteous line of Seth. But in the second instance, it now refers to the daughters of Cain. Which you just don't find in the text, and you don't find that kind of elsewhere in the Bible, so that's a challenge.

And the second probably biggest challenge is how do you get Nephilim from just a group of people who marry based off of, like, a lack of morality? You know, you've got a righteous line versus an evil line and they produce these giants. Like, that kind of doesn't -- you know, that's not super coherent for me and so I kind of have a challenge with that.

And so I like to interpret the Bible -- at least this is my hermeneutical method -- based off of what we find clear. And what we find clear, I then want to try to track that onto these unclear passages, right? So where do we find the Hebrew phrase, "bene Elohim" the clearest? Well, you actually find it in Job 1 and Job 2 and Job 38. And that exact same phrase, "bene Elohim," is seen in context as angelic divine beings.

And so I would want to then take that and then another famous passage, Psalm 82, and then read that and say, I think the clearest way to understand this and to see the coherence of it is that you have angelic beings who in rebellion go into and exchange -- have unholy union with human women, and the production of that are these giants called the Nephilim. The Hebrew word "Nephilim" in the Septuagint, the Greek Bible -- the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, they translate that word as "gigas," which is giants. And Goliath comes from the line of the Nephilim. He is a giant from the giant clan of Gath. I mean, you kind of find this issue that is coming up.

And there is a story -- this is going to sound a little interesting, Jennifer. So just understand that for people, it's like, wait a minute, Joel, what is kind of going on? Let me give an example.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: So today -- I grew up in Chicago. I'm a Chicago kid through and through. So, Jennifer, you and I have never had this conversation, so this is risky for me to even say this -- right? -- in the interview.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. No, good. I love risk. Go.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay, okay. So here we go. If I were to say to you, Jennifer, who is the GOAT, MJ or LeBron, what would be your response?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. I don't know because I'm not from Chicago. But I'd say Michael Jordan just because -- isn't he older? I would assume he's the greatest of all time.

Joel Muddamalle: You're the best. You're the absolute best. Okay? And here's why. Because without me giving an ounce of the context -- and this was a little bit scary for me because I don't even know if you're a basketball gal or anything, right? It was kind of scary. Like, wait a minute. How did you know that when I said MJ, I was talking about Michael Jordan?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because I just remember from back in the day. Wasn't his number even 21 or 23? I don't remember.

Joel Muddamalle: Twenty-three. Yeah, 23, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And then when I say GOAT, what am I referring to?

Jennifer Rothschild: The greatest of all time.

Joel Muddamalle: Okay. But how did you know that I wasn't, when I said MJ, referring to Michael Jackson? And how did you know that when I said GOAT, I wasn't referring to a furry animal called a goat?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I don't know. Because you said you were Chicago, yeah --

Joel Muddamalle: Right, context.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and so I know basketball. Yeah, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: And you live in a contextual moment where that all makes sense. I don't feel the need to explain all those details to you because you understand it, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Joel Muddamalle: Now, in 500 years from now, maybe even a thousand years if the Lord tarries, those terms are going to have to be defined, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they will. Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: People are going to have to figure out, wait, what did they mean in that podcast interview about -- like, are they talking about a furry animal and that animal's name is MJ? And why are they putting two furry animals named MJ and LeBron in competition? Like, you can see how this can --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: -- go sideways really quickly without the context.

Well, at the time of Genesis 6, there was a story that was already well known in that time period, that the biblical authors themselves knew. In fact, Peter and Jude both quote this book. It's a book in Second Temple literature called the Book of Enoch. And I want to be very careful here. The Book of Enoch is not canon. I don't view it as canon, I don't view it as inspired, none of that at all.

But what the Book of Enoch is is insight into the cultural context of that moment. And we know that God in his sovereignty chose to give us the canon of Scripture through human authors who lived in time and space, and he divinely inspired them and protected the text and guarded it, and yet still allowed for there to be personality. Like, when I read Paul, I'm always like, man, Paul's kind of passive-aggressive, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Intense. Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: You know, when I read John, I'm kind of like, man, John's kind of a goody two-shoes. Like, he's always bragging about his relationship with Jesus. You know? Like, oh, gosh. But I love that because it brings the Bible to life.

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[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, friends, picture this. A Christian community committed to learning, loving people, and equipped to change the world. And put all that right by the beach in dreamy West Palm Beach, Florida. Well, that is the university where I graduated, Palm Beach Atlantic University. PBA's world-class main campus is located in downtown West Palm Beach, Florida. It's nestled right beside the Intracoastal Waterway and, get this, it's just a mile from the Atlantic Ocean. I remember with my boyfriend and with my friends walking across the bridge and hanging out right there at the beach. Oh, yeah.

The campus, it is beautiful. The surroundings are stunning. But the most beautiful thing about Palm Beach Atlantic University is the students and the faculty. The university is full of Christ-centered opportunities for learning, growing, oh, and it does have the most fun campus life. So PBA is going to equip your student to grow in wisdom, lead with conviction, and serve God boldly. So you need to check it out at 413podcast.com/PBA.

Let's get back now to our conversation.

---

Joel Muddamalle: So in Genesis 6, there was already a pre-understood story, and the story is the story of the watchers who came to Mount Hermon. And when they came to Mount Hermon -- this is the background of this entire story of Genesis 6 -- they come into an unholy union. They give humanity access to knowledge that they were not prepared for. I mean, that sounds like an echo of Genesis 3, doesn't it, right --

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure does.

Joel Muddamalle: -- the knowledge of good and evil, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure does.

Joel Muddamalle: And then the production is these giants, these half-breed beings that cause havoc and evil throughout the world, which is what necessitates in Genesis 6 the story of the flood. And so what you have in Genesis 6, this second rebellion, is a rebellion of a transgression of domains. Angelic beings were given a task and a vocation and responsibility, and yet these beings transgress. They go past the domains that they were given, and the result is evil and chaos in the world.

And the last one, for the sake of time, I'll summarize it -- you can read all about this in "The Unseen Battle" -- is the Tower of Babel.

Genesis 11 opens up with the story of the people going to the plains of Shinar. And in the ancient world, mountains were very, very important because the mountains were the place where you communed with God. And if you go to a plain and there's no mountains, you're like, uh-oh, we're in trouble. And so what do they do? They build what's called a ziggurat temple tower. In fact, archeologists have found these exact figures -- there's actually one archeologist who thinks he might have even found the actual Tower of Babel itself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Joel Muddamalle: And there's a phrase for it, and I'm blanking on the name. It's like, Entemenanki or something like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, we wouldn't know if you were right or wrong, so you could just fake it.

Joel Muddamalle: Yeah. Well, it means, like, the tower of heaven or something like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gotcha.

Joel Muddamalle: And what they found was -- at the very top was a room for the deity to come down, and then there was a priestly kind of housing location at the base of the tower. And so what you find with the rebellion here in Genesis 11 is -- you see that humanity is tasked to make the name of God great. That's the goal.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's our goal, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: What happens in Genesis 11 is they want to make their own name great.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: It's an inversion of it, right? It's arrogance and pride. And so they try to force God to come down by building a tower that goes up, and yet God comes down and diversifies their language. He takes the one language away so that they disperse.

And this is one of the things that I kind of just think is so amazing, is that even in the midst of human rebellion, God still works so that his mission and his vision is executed throughout the world. And the goal was for them to go out into the world. And even in the midst of the rebellion, his task, his mission, his vision still happens.

Now you might be wondering, Joel, how do you know that there's -- like, this just sounds like human rebellion. Where do you get the supernatural aspect here?

Well, there's a phrase in Genesis 11 where God says, "Let us come down and confuse their tongues." That Hebrew phrase, "Let us come down," is a telltale sign of God speaking to his heavenly host, to the divine council. And it's kind of fascinating. It's the same verbiage that's used in Genesis 1:26. And Hebrew scholars call this the plural of majesty, and it's used actually in other places to describe the divine council.

And then you have a more explicit reference, which is Deuteronomy 32:8-9. It says this: "When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind." Well, when did God divide mankind? The Tower of Babel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: "He fixed the borders of the peoples according to" -- and this is amazing -- "the number of the sons of God. But the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob is his allotted heritage." And so if you've ever wondered where did the Jew and Gentile distinction come from, it came right here in Genesis 11. Because in Genesis 12, you have the story of Abraham and the Abrahamic covenant that God would take Abram out of Ur of the Chaldeans -- which in interesting detail, Ur of the Chaldeans, Jennifer, is geographically in the same area of Babel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, I never knew that.

Joel Muddamalle: It's amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so cool.

Joel Muddamalle: So God reaches into the epicenter of rebellion -- right? -- grabs one family and says, Actually, through your family I'm going to create a path to have my family back together. Because all the nations of the world actually belong to me, and so through you, you, Abram, will be a blessing to all the nations. And this is restated in Genesis 12, 15, 17, and 22.

In Deuteronomy 32:8-9, it's this phrase "the sons of God," which is really important. There's a little bit of textual stuff that's going on here. If you look at some of your Bibles, like NIV or CSB, it might say "Sons of Israel." ESV says "sons of God." Well, why the distinction there? It's because in some manuscripts -- it's called the Masoretic text -- the phrase is "Sons of Israel."

But the challenge is in the Septuagint, the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, the earliest trans- -- which the Septuagint is actually earlier than the Masoretic text -- the language there is "the angels of God." So it's like, wait a minute, why would the Septuagint have a cosmic view of this, but the Masoretic text has a human view of this?

And then the Dead Sea Scrolls are found, Jennifer. And this is where things get really interesting. Because the Dead Sea Scrolls are significantly earlier in dating than the Masoretic text, and arguably the Septuagint as well. And so with that, guess what they found? They found the phrase "bene Elohim" for Deuteronomy 32:8-9. And that affirms that the appropriate reading, the right reading, is this cosmic reading, which actually sets the framework of the gods of the nations.

Because you'll notice after this and throughout Deuteronomy, throughout Leviticus, all throughout the Old Testament, the issue is for the people of Israel not to be tempted by the gods of the nations. Don't follow after Baal, don't worship at the Asherah poles, don't -- you know, if you read 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles, I mean, these deities are everywhere. They're the ones who lead Solomon astray. I mean, he marries all these wives, and the gods of the wives lead -- I mean, it's just like it's chaos. And it's like, well, where did all this happen? Right here, Deuteronomy 32:8-9.

Deuteronomy 4:19 and elsewhere, there's this warning, which is to the Israelites, don't look to the heavens, the starry heavenly host, don't look to the moon and the stars, and don't bow in worship to them because they are not allotted to you. They were never given to you.

And so what we're told is just that this happened. We're not told how it happened or the details behind it, just that this was the fact that the gods of the nations entice humanity to worship themselves, and in so doing they become the false gods of the Old Testament that are absolutely trying to deceive people, to divide the people from God, and ultimately lead people into their own self-destruction.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. And this right here, my friends, is why we study Scripture. I'm telling you, Joel, you answered some questions for me that I have been asked before and I truly have not really known, like the sons of God. And that was so thorough and so helpful and such a great foundation to where I want us to go next.

I want us to go from that global understanding of basically our human history to the history we're living right now. Let's make this very personal right now, in Joel's life, in Jennifer's life, in all of our listeners' life, where do you see this unseen battle that began with these three rebellions? Or at least was made manifest in these three rebellions. Where is it being waged most right now in our lives?

Joel Muddamalle: Well, we could do a whole other episode on this. But Paul's language in the New Testament is powers, principalities, authorities, and thrones. And what Paul is talking about is -- he's actually got a play on words here where he has in mind both cosmic beings and human institutions or systems and structures that the enemy uses to entrap us. And so think about Genesis 4. You've got God's warning to Cain, Be careful, the enemy is waiting. Sin is crouching and waiting for you. This is the tactic of the enemy. The enemy is so incredibly patient, Jennifer. The enemy is laying traps and watching and observing.

And a couple very important theological clarifications that I want to make. One, the enemy is not God. This is not like the Asian yin and yang idea that you have co-equal powers and there's this eternal tug of war. That is not what we're talking about. We're talking about the victorious King of heaven and earth, Jesus himself, the uncreated Creator who creates everything. And it's the created order that goes into rebellion. And so God is already victorious, we're just watching in human history as he accomplishes his victory in and through humanity and through the church primarily.

And why I use that as a starting point into the practicality of this is because the enemy is not omniscient, they don't know all things; they are not omnipresent, they cannot be in all places at all times; and they're not omnipotent, they're not all powerful. They do have a high degree of knowledge because they've been around for a very long time and they're observing. They have a high ability of even power as supernatural beings, and yet they are not in totality those things.

And the biggest issue is their limitation in time and space. And this is why, if we think about spiritual warfare today, I would suggest that we don't get distracted by -- this might sound interesting -- but we don't get distracted by what people often refer to today as power encounters with demons, you know. It's like demonic exorcisms and these power encounters and hauntings. And hear me clearly. I believe those things happen. I think that there's a real enemy who hates us. So I'm not saying that those things don't happen. I want to distinguish between what is normative and what is non-normative. And so the non-normative would be exorcisms and demonic possessions or extreme levels of oppression.

But what is normative in terms of spiritual warfare? Here's what it is. I remember, Jennifer, when I first got Instagram. And you would scroll to the bottom, and you would get done and it would say, "You're all caught up. Congratulations." The first thing that left Instagram was that feature.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Joel Muddamalle: Now you and I have the endless scroll. And as we are endlessly scrolling at night -- I mean, I find myself doing this sometimes. Sometimes -- this is so wild -- I will reach for my phone to scroll, my phone is in my hand, and I start to panic like, Where's my phone?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Yes, I've been there.

Joel Muddamalle: You know? And it's like, Oh, wait. This is an indication that there's an issue of dependence that is being exposed in my own heart. And so what the enemy wants us to do is to be dependent on anything and everything other than the total source of dependence, which is God himself. And so I'd want us to just be very keenly aware of these vices. Paul uses the vice lists throughout his letters, the vices of the flesh, the vices of the heart, the vices of the mind, that the enemy loves to use neutral things to make them ultimate things so that they always become idolatrous things.

And this is why I go back to these kind of three words, that the enemy wants to deceive us, you know. It's like, it's not a big deal, it's just social media. Of course you want to know what your friends are up to, until you're comparing yourself with every one of your friends. You're not a good enough mom, right? Because look at the other moms that are doing all the things and taking their kids to all the travel sports and doing -- and here you are just trying -- and it's like, Wait a minute. That's not what God thinks of you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Joel Muddamalle: This isn't the truth of God's identity for who you are, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Joel Muddamalle: Or it's the dad who's like, Man, I'm just working as hard as I can. And you scroll and you're like, well, look at this, dad. He's taking his kids and his family on Disney trips and this and that, and they're -- and it's like, well -- it's like, Wait a minute. That's not what God thinks of you. This is an enemy who's trying to expose us to more information than we know what to do with to allow the sinfulness of our flesh and the insecurity and the anxiety that is inside of us to actually create our own spiritual turmoil and our own spiritual warfare.

And so I want us to be aware of the systems and the structures that the enemy loves to establish so that the enemy can go spiritual warfare mass market. Things like social media, things like -- I'm just amazed at the opioid addiction that's happening right now. Over-the-counter pills. Pornography. My goodness. The rise of AI. I mean, I think that there's something really amazing about AI, and I think there's something that is very devastating about the potential of AI being misunderstood, misused, and really weaponized against humanity in our own hearts.

And so I think these are the ways that -- all of what we talked about, if you think about the three rebellions, it's like Genesis 3 and knowledge. Look at ChatG -- look at what's presented to us. We have more knowledge than ever before, and yet I'm kind of convinced we're becoming a dumber people, not a smarter people because of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. We're not thinking. Yes.

Joel Muddamalle: We're not thinking. Exactly. We've lost discernment in the process, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, right.

Joel Muddamalle: Think about Genesis 6 and the sons of God, the phrases that they use. They see human women, they desire the human women, and they take the women. Whenever those three phrases in Hebrew are put together, see, desire, and take, it's always bad, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: This is the exact same phrase of David. When he sees Bathsheba, he desires her and then he takes her for himself. Like, this is how the enemy wants to present something that is in a neutral sense beautiful, but then wants to make you believe that you deserve it, and the only way that you can get it is if you take it of your own accord. And so that's what we're finding with sexual addictions, that's what we're finding with pornography, that's what we're finding with alcoholism, that's what we're finding with these kinds of vices. And really, Genesis 6 puts that in the forefront for us.

And then the last one is Genesis 11, is that pride. Like, I want to make a name for myself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: I want to make a name -- and I remember once, Jennifer, John Piper in a Passion Conference early, early on -- and I remember I was so -- just convicted -- he used this illustration of asking, what scenario would you be more satisfied in the Lord with? If your name was exalted, God used you -- I mean, I think -- let me personalize it for myself. He uses your books, you become a best seller. Like, you speak all over. Like, you do all these things, and in that God's like, I'm going to make my name glorified.

Or the second option God determines is, like, actually nobody will ever know your name, nobody's ever going to read any books of yours. It's actually in the sight of the world to all be flops and failures. And yet, in and through that, that is the way my name is going to be the most magnified and the most glorified. What does your heart actually rest in? And the sinfulness in my heart always says I want one. I would hate two. And yet the Lord is saying, like, And by the way, either/or, are you satisfied in who I am?

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah.

Joel Muddamalle: And so that for me has been like, oh, this is the crux of spiritual warfare. It is a question of dependence, it's a question of aim and ambition of my loves being rightly ordered and my allegiance ultimately to King Jesus. The enemy wants us to be in a conflict of allegiance and in disorder with our loves.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course he does. I'm so glad that you made that so clear, Joel, because that really is where we live. And I've often thought when I don't live circumspectly and humbly, then I inadvertently just turn over all those things. My pride, my messed-up allegiance, whatever it may be, I just turn it over to the enemy, like, with an open hand and say, Here you go. Here you go. Destroy me. I'm here. I've gotcha. And that -- we belong to Jesus and so, yes, may we humbly bow at his throne and confess sin and walk humbly, Micah 6:8, our whole life. You know, seriously, walk humbly with our God.

Okay. I am so thankful, number one, for your scholarship, your thoughtfulness, your ability to communicate with such clarity some very difficult and deep things. So I am highly recommending this book. We're going to have a link to it on the Show Notes 4:13ers. We're going to get to our last question, Joel, because clearly this can't be covered in a conversation. We need to go deep in the book. And, of course, your Therapy & Theology Podcast with Lisa. Just so many resources that God has gifted you with.

But let's get to our last question. Because I'm listening to you -- okay, so as a scholar, Ph.D., you've done this great work. As a follower of Christ, you've fought this battle. Okay. So now let's say that this is not the 4:13 Podcast, but you are talking right now to either a very thoughtful skeptic, or maybe it's a Christian journalist and they're very curious and they ask you, Come on, Joel, why does this unseen battle really matter for me? Okay? You just gave us the history of it, but why does it really matter for me, like, right now this week? How would you answer them? Why does this really matter?

Joel Muddamalle: Okay, I'm going to answer in two ways. Here's the first one. I want to ask a hypothetical question. If you are a follower of Jesus, would you say that this is a true statement?

That the foundation of our faith is built on the belief that God created all things, that he's the uncreated Creator, that he sent his son Jesus, who is 100% God, but takes on humanity, comes into humanity through the incarnation, immaculate conception, literal virgin birth, lives a perfect life, dies on a literal Roman cross, goes into the grave, defeats sin and death through death itself, rises on the third day, hangs out for a period of 40 days, just to kind of prove the point, and then literally, in front of his disciples and eyewitnesses, ascends to the right hand of the Father, which is where he rules and reigns today.

What part of that, my friends, is not supernatural and cosmic in nature? I mean, all of it is. And so it's like -- the question of why should this matter, I would just say, like, if we lose one of the cosmic elements of the story of Scripture, particularly in the Gospel, the Good News of Jesus, it's like we've lost it all.

So why would we want to intentionally or unintentionally live a life absent of the supernatural element of the Scriptures from Genesis through Revelation? Why would we want to allow ourselves to be confused instead of seeing clarity that comes through the cosmic Christ? So that's that part.

And the second part is very simple, but far from simplistic. It's a quote from our friend Jim Cress, who is an incredible therapist on the Therapy & Theology Podcast. It's because you have an enemy who hates you. Like, you have an enemy who actually hates you. And this enemy knows that he and they could never defeat the King of heaven and earth. But you know what could grieve the heart of God, who is a good father? For this enemy to deceive, to divide, and to destroy God's human children.

And so I kind of think of ourselves as that frog, the illustration of the frog in a bowl, you know, on a burner.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Joel Muddamalle: It's just cool and the frog's totally chill, totally fine, and the burner heats up. But then the frog just gets desensitized to the heat until eventually it is just burnt alive.

And my concern for us today is that we are that frog in that water and we're living in a climate that is becoming more spiritualized than ever before, and yet we're becoming desensitized to the truth of the Gospel, and we're being conned and deceived into alternative spiritual practices that will not make us better people, it will not save us. It will lead us into destruction. And the answer to this is the Gospel, and the Gospel is cosmic in nature.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you heard Dr. Joel. He quoted Jim Cress, You have an enemy who hates you. And here's the thing. He knows he can't defeat Jesus, but he can sure try to defeat you. He is ready to deceive you, defied all of us, and destroy you. He wants to do it to you because he knows that's how he can get to God. That's how he can most hurt God. So we need to be alert and awake.

KC Wright: And get out of the pot on the stove that is slowly heating up. We do need to live awake and aware and like the victors that we are. We're the head and not the tail, we're above and not beneath.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: This book is a rich, rich resource, and it's such a deep biblical exploration. I am really thankful for this resource, for the body of Christ, and I'm going to really think through those three rebellions he taught.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? That was new to me.

KC Wright: I'm going to listen to this again. And I want to go to the Show Notes, just like you do. But I've never thought of all this this this way.

So we will have a link to this book on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/395. That's 413podcast.com/395, so you can get the book. But really, you and I need to read this transcript. It was so good. There was so much there.

So friends, family, 4:13ers, we love you. But here's the word. Stand strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Put on the whole armor of God. And when you have done all you can stand, keep standing --

Jennifer Rothschild: Keep standing.

KC Wright: -- just like J.R. is. Just like I am.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, me too. I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can.

KC Wright: And notice that armor is only for the front. It doesn't cover the back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Why not?

KC Wright: Because we're not supposed to be running backwards.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: We're supposed to be advancing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: We're a force to be reckoned with because greater is He that is in us that he that is in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Flourish and Live Fruitful? With Christine Caine [Episode 394]

Christine Caine: We are truly rooted and grounded in Christ, and all the promises of God are in Christ Jesus "yes" and "amen." And Jesus is still the same yesterday, today, and forever, no matter what has happened to us or around us. Because the promises of God are "yes" and "amen" in Christ, if we're rooted in him, we can still flourish.

And we may have lost --and everyone has lost something in this last decade, something that means a lot to them. But the fact is, if we're rooted in Christ and the promises of God are in Christ Jesus "yes" and "amen," and he's still the same, even though the world has changed, I want Christians to believe we can flourish again, because the promise is in him, the hope is in him, the peace is in him, the joy is in him. It's all in him, and we haven't lost him, no matter what has happened in the world around us.

Jennifer Rothschild: God has created you and called you to flourish even in the most difficult times. Did you know that you were made for more than just surviving?

Well, on today's 4:13, speaker and best-selling author Christine Caine, is going to show you that it is possible to thrive in every single season of life, including the hardest ones, by grounding yourself in God's truth and activating the peace, resilience, and purpose that he gives you. She's going to use the olive tree to show you how you can develop steep spiritual roots and bear fruit that is going to last. So get ready to dig in. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. And it is my goal just to help you be and do more than you feel capable as you are living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. I hope you have had a good week. I will tell you, around here we've had a good week because it's getting close to spring break. And, in fact, that leads me to this...

Last week KC had a head cold. I told you that. That's why he couldn't show up. Well, this week it's spring break, so he's not here again. But I promise you, my friends, we are getting close to being back in normal territory around here with two friends and one topic and zero stress. But right now it's still just me in the studio because he already had plans, and so I just decided we were just going to do this together, you, me, and Christine.

But I got to tell you, because it is spring break around here where we live -- and I don't know what it is around where you live -- but because it's spring break around here, I've had the grandkids over. And I will tell you the funniest thing that just happened.

So one of the little guys -- we have five now. We have five. Okay? Eight, six, four, two, and a newborn. Is that five? Eight, six -- anyway, whatever. One of them, the four-year-old, John Robert, sometimes he just wants to get out and have time alone with Gigi. And so his dad called and said, "Hey, Mom, do you mind if John Robert comes over? He wants to come over to your house." I'm like, "Oh, that's so awesome." I felt so honored, you know.

So he comes over and I'm letting him watch PAW Patrol and I'm making him popcorn. I'm doing all the things. And so I sit by him on the couch and I say, "John Robert, I am so happy you wanted to come over to Gigi's house." And he did not miss a beat. He said, "Well, Grandmommy was not home," meaning his other grandmother. So I was second choice.

But it's okay to be second choice because we had a top rate time and it was still very fun. And I got a little bit of that snuggle time in before I hit the road, because that's what I'm doing this weekend.

I told you last week about the Hope of Heaven Tour. Well, I'm out on the road, and we are heading toward Georgia and Alabama and South Carolina. I'll have a link, of course, so that you can see where we are on the Hope of Heaven Tour, or you can just go straight to hopeofheaventour.com. But if you're out and about this weekend in the southeast, come see us, me and Kelly Minter. I would love it.

All right, my people, we are going to go to Australia, at least through Christine Caine's beautiful accent, because she and I got to talk about her latest book. And I can't wait for you to hear it because, oh, my goodness, it was so inspiring. So let me introduce Christine.

She is a speaker and an activist and a best-selling author who inspires people, including me, to discover their God-given purpose and live transformed for Jesus. She and her husband, Nick, they have two daughters, Catherine and Sophia. And she is the host of the Equip & Empower Podcast, and she and I are about to talk about her latest book, "The Faith to Flourish."

So lean back, settle in, and let's go.

All right, Christine, before we even hit your book, I've got to tell you something. You don't realize that you have great influence over my husband's life. Did you know this?

Christine Caine: Oh, I have? Have I met him?

Jennifer Rothschild: You've never met him. But let me tell you why that is. Okay. You know how on your GPS on your phone, you can choose any voice you want? Well, he chose this Australian woman. And so I started nicknaming her Christine Caine. I'm like, "Honey" -- he says, "Do you remember what the address is?" I said, "No. Just ask Christine." So that's the thing I'm always saying. And then if he doesn't listen to me, but he's listening to his GPS, I'm like, "You listen to Christine Caine more than you listen to me." So there you go.

Christine Caine: Can I tell that story? That is the best story I've heard. My husband would be like -- he got a GPS like that, and it had a -- we were living in Australia, so it had an Aussie woman's voice, and I called her Matilda. And I used to say the same thing. I'd go, "Why do you listen to Matilda, but you don't listen to me?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly, Christine. That's what I'm saying. So I give him a hard time all the time. I said, "If Christine Caine tells you to do it, you'll do it." So, yes, you are affectionately -- I named our GPS after you.

Christine Caine: It's made my day.

Jennifer Rothschild: So don't steer us wrong, sister, don't steer us wrong.

Christine Caine: No, I won't.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's get to your book. So your latest book, "The Faith to Flourish," you use the olive tree. Okay, so I'm so excited we get to talk about this, because you're using the olive tree as a metaphor. So I want to know why you chose the olive tree, and what does it represent?

Christine Caine: For sure. Well, Jennifer, I have to ask you, do you like olives?

Jennifer Rothschild: I love olives. And I love olive oil. Yes.

Christine Caine: See, you're my kind of chick. Okay, this is awesome.

Well, I don't know if you know, but I am Greek and I come from a Greek background. My parents were Greek immigrants in Australia.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Christine Caine: And so -- I don't know -- there was the movie "My Big Fat Greek Wedding," you know that was like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Christine Caine: Yes. Okay, so --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's you?

Christine Caine: That is my big fat Greek life. 100% that was it. And so you probably were raised drinking milk out of your bottle. I had olive oil in my bottle as a baby. You know, like, my mother was -- olive oil was the answer to life, the universe, and everything. So we just always had olives.

Now, you know, my husband and I oversee a global anti-human trafficking organization that started in Greece, and so we have an office in Athens. And then a few years ago, you know, I was there with our team, and we had gone up to the Parthenon. And there in the Parthenon there's a little plaque, it says, "The Sacred Olive Tree."

And how the whole book came around was I had been reading Psalm 52. And in Psalm 52, David, after he had been being chased by Saul and, you know, he was in a time of -- one of the many times of just great peril and darkness and betrayal and slander and just people were trying to kill him. I mean, the whole thing. So his external circumstances were a mess. But right in the middle of that, in Psalm 52, he says, "But I am like a green olive tree flourishing in the house of God." And it just really had struck me. I had red and green olive trees, so I was thinking, like, of all the trees, that's amazing.

Now, so you go -- as the Lord would have it, I'm reading that psalm. I'm now at the top of the Parthenon and there is this green olive tree in the midst of all of this barren -- it was dry, it was arid, and yet there is this thriving green olive tree that has grown, flourish, produces fruit in the most barren conditions.

And it was really in that moment, you know, that verse from that psalm, that green olive tree and all my Greek background, and the Mediterranean background of going, of all the trees in the Bible -- I mean, the Bible mentions obviously a lot of trees, but there's over 200 mentions in Scripture of the olive tree, olive oil, olive branches. So, of course, the nerd in me, it sent me down a trail --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Christine Caine: -- of going, I want to look up these 200 plus verses that have anything to do with olive oil, olive branch, olive leaf, olive tree. And it struck me. It was like the lights went on of just how much the imagery of the olive tree is threaded from Genesis through to Revelation, how important it is in our faith, and why of all the trees -- and I was really -- Jennifer, to be honest, the world is -- maybe where you are it's normal, but the world has lost its ever-loving mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Christine Caine: I travel everywhere and I'm like, y'all, this place is...

And, you know, there's no real sign that anything's going to get better certainly in the immediate future, or perhaps even in our lifetime, should the Lord tarry. So what is it, then, if an olive tree can flourish in barren and difficult conditions, and really flourish, produce -- it's the most fruitful of all the fruit bearing trees -- and produce oil. And how are we, as believers in the midst of a very, very chaotic and divisive and broken and dark world, supposed to flourish? And are we?

Anyway, I hope -- I think in the day in which we're living, where so many believers are languishing -- really, I called it "The Faith to Flourish" because I truly believe in this hour we need faith to start flourishing again in the way God created us flourish.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Because you're right, we do need the faith to flourish. The world needs us --

Christine Caine: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to have the faith to flourish. Because just as the olive tree is life-giving and nourishing to those who sit under its shade or partake of its fruit, that is how we can be, too, to this world.

Christine Caine: Well, totally. And our world desperately needs it. And so if we're sort of languishing and not flourishing, it has huge implications, not just for our own life, but everyone within our sphere of influence, you know, our families, our neighborhoods, our workplaces. And so I think this is an hour where we go, okay, what does it really mean to flourish and what -- you know, I sort of designed it like here are our 14 lessons from the olive tree --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love it.

Christine Caine: -- she's going to teach us, everything from the root system through to bearing fruit in the midst of it all.

And I just really loved -- I went to eight different countries, Jennifer. I visited olive farms in eight different nations, Spain and Italy and Morocco and Slovenia and Peru and, you know, here in America, and I spoke to the owners of the olive tree farms. And I learned more than anybody would ever want to know about -- I ate more olive tapenade and I tried more olive oil than anybody will in a lifetime. But, wow, it taught me so much as a believer.

And then to see in Scripture -- I mean, when you see so much of the imagery from -- you know, when the flood -- when the dove brought the olive leaf back from the flood that signified there was life on the earth and that God had not destroyed all of the earth, and the fact that you've got an olive leaf.

And then what does an olive branch mean? And in our world of chaos and division, what is it to be peacemakers like Jesus tells us to be? And why is the olive branch so symbolic of peacemaking around the world? And the wood of the olive tree that is used all the way through the tabernacle, why did God choose that? And what is it that we make of wood today? And how are we supposed to be sturdy and strong and enduring?

You know, it takes about ten years for an olive tree to bear fruit. We all, in our very instant generation, you know, social media world where we sort of want to, you know, the next day kind of be producing fruit, what does it mean to endure in a very instant generation world? And I think -- like, unpacking those eternal truths, I think is so important for the day in which we live.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, the inner nerd in me is jumping up and down because I want to know a couple of things here. So first of all, I didn't know it took about ten years for an olive tree to bear fruit. That right there preaches.

But then the other thing that I've got to understand is why? Why is it? Now, I know you're not necessarily, you know, a horticulturist, but what did you glean? Why is it that an olive tree can flourish, not just survive but flourish, even when things are very arid and barren?

Christine Caine: Because of the root system. Now, the thing is it not only flourishes, it is the most profuse fruit bearing tree of all the fruit bearing trees. Like, it produces more fruit than any other tree, which is, like, stunning, given that if you've ever sort of been into the Mediterranean or -- some of those places are so barren, and olive trees are growing up in just kind of really odd places and in hilltops, and you just kind of go, How did you get there?

But it is the interconnected root system. The olive trees, it's got a dual -- now, again, I'm not going to get too technical. But for the nerds, it's all in there and it's all explained.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, good.

Christine Caine: But the way those roots go deep and then interconnect, and the fact that one olive tree really needs the other olive tree, but the strength that that brings. But it takes time for those roots to go down deep, for it to grow up out of the ground. But it's the depth of the roots that cause it to flourish.

Which, of course, you know, for anyone that's kind of thinking of John 15 and the roots going deep and are staying, you know, connected to Jesus, again, this is a different metaphor. But it does show you the importance of the strong roots that cause it to be able to grow despite the external conditions. I mean, and even after a fire -- I mean, I've got a couple of examples in there where entire olive groves were wiped out by the worst fires in Italy and yet grew back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Christine Caine: It really is stunning. Like, some of these places where I went and really researched and thought, I can't believe, nothing else grew back but the olive trees. And I thought in light of what we have experienced -- and particularly the last 10 years, I think, have been challenging for believers -- I'm like, you know, this is a time you can grow back. A lot of people think they're finished, they're done, there's no hope, but we are truly rooted and grounded in Christ.

And all the promises of God are in Christ Jesus "yes" and "amen." And Jesus is still the same yesterday, today, and forever, no matter what has happened to us or around us, because the promises of God are "yes" and "amen" in Christ. If we're rooted in him, we can still flourish.

And we may have lost -- and everyone has lost something in this last decade, something that means a lot to them. But the fact is, if we're rooted in Christ and the promises of God are in Christ Jesus "yes" and "amen," and he's still the same, even though the world has changed, I want Christians to believe we can flourish again. Because the promise is in him, the hope is in him, the peace is in him, the joy is in him. It's all in him. And we haven't lost him, no matter what has happened in the world around us.

Jennifer Rothschild: You are so right. Okay, I love that imagery that we are rooted and grounded in him.

But what I did not understand is that the olive tree's strength is gained from how their roots intertwine also --

Christine Caine: Very much so, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- which says why we need each other. Which is why we continue to love each other well and be for each other and with each other. So wow.

Okay. So we're going to have a link to the book, 4:13ers, after this conversation, so stick with us because I know you're ready to jump on Amazon. Just hold out, Sparky. Wait a minute. Okay? Because we need to talk about some more of this. I'm loving this so much.

Pruning. Okay? I am not a big gardener. But my understanding is for things to grow, you have to prune them. So I'd like for you to talk to us a little bit about pruning.

Christine Caine: Well, for sure. And I think -- I saw this especially in Peru. And the way that -- and here is the bottom line. And, of course, you know, Jesus himself said every branch that doesn't bear fruit, of course, is going to be cut off. But he also said and every branch that does. And I think Christians have forgotten somewhere along the line that basically you're pruned if you do and you're pruned if you don't.

And so this is like -- and sometimes we think that pruning is, you know, maybe a sign of judgment, I've done something wrong. But it's actually not. It is -- pruning, it is for the sake of bearing more fruit.

I think even in -- you know, Jennifer, the last couple of years -- we have spent 20 years building a global anti-trafficking organization, so we have offices all around the world. And the pruning, the work that we do that really isn't bearing fruit, that's not difficult. Like, cutting off the branches that -- you know, even in our own lives, you know, you kind of go, okay, that one's got to go, that's not bearing fruit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it's not working.

Christine Caine: What is really hard is allowing the Lord to chop off the stuff that you love and that is bearing fruit. And I think the longer we grow with the Lord, the more resistant we are to allowing the Lord to cut off things that we actually love that are not sinful, they're not bad and -- you know, we can justify it. We go, "Look, it's bearing fruit." But the Lord's saying, if you would let me prune this area, you would be stunned at how much more fruit you will produce.

And I see the loving -- the guys that were running the olive farms that I visited, you know, they're so intimate with their trees, and they sort of, like, go -- they're talking to them, you know, like, this is going to be painful. And I feel like -- there was one guy in particular, the guy in Peru, and I'm like, oh, my word, I think this is what the Lord must feel like when he goes, okay, I know you think this is going to hurt, and it is, and I know you're going to miss this fruit, but if you would just let me do this, the other side of this, you will be stunned at how much more fruit is going to be born.

And I think -- I'm 60 this year, Jennifer, and so I've been walking with the Lord for nearly 40 years. And it is amazing that if you don't really stay intimately connected with the Lord, knowing that he loves you and that even a little bit of short-term pain is going to yield long-term gain and long-term fruit, you can become resistant and sort of say to the Lord, you know, you can deal with this area, but not this area.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Christine Caine: I remember when I was first saved -- so go back four decades -- I was such a mess. I'm like, "Lord, cut it all off." You know, every day you kind of wake up, you're in the Word, whatever you're reading, you're like, oh, I've got to get rid of this and get rid of this. And if we're not careful, you can become comfortable with some things that the Lord wants to come in and say.

You can continue to bear fruit even in old age. Of course, those verses really mean a lot more to me now that I'm turning 60, and so it's kind of like --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Christine Caine: You know, but I can continue to bear fruit even in old age, but there's a correlation between bearing fruit and a willingness to be pruned.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, and in your book you write that pruning is not punitive --

Christine Caine: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but restorative.

Christine Caine: Very much.

Jennifer Rothschild: So deepen that thought. How is it restorative? I understand that it can help you bear fruit in different areas. But how is it restorative?

Christine Caine: Well, I think what it does is it keeps us in it. The restorative -- I think what I was writing then very much is that -- John says it's to our Father's great glory that we bear much fruit. I think we forget that sometimes. Not just bear a bit of fruit, but much fruit.

So where I say restorative is -- we are on the earth to bring glory to God. So what is at stake here is glory. So the more glory I'm bringing to him, well, the more I'm being conformed and transformed to his image, the more like him I'm becoming. That's the restoration part. That to me is the restorative part. It's not that I'm becoming more like Christine, but I'm becoming more like Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Christine Caine: So if I'm limiting how much fruit bearing I'm having this side of eternity because I don't want to go through the discomfort or maybe the pain of pruning, what is at stake is glory. What is at stake is the image of God on the earth. And so I think the restoration of being restored to his image and increasingly bearing his image on the earth, again, that's the correlation. I think when we think it's punitive, when we think God only prunes when I'm doing something wrong, that's a very limited view of pruning And I think it limits --

Jennifer Rothschild: And of God. And of God.

Christine Caine: Oh, very much so, very much of the character of God. And then it really limits how much fruit we're going to produce.

And, of course, I'm very mindful of women my age because I see it. And I see it very much in this sort of youth-obsessed culture and anti-aging culture, where I'm going a Scripture tells us repeatedly that we can bear fruit even into old age.

And nothing breaks my heart more -- as I look around at women my age and I'm thinking, why do you think God no longer wants to use you? Why do you not -- with all this wisdom you have, all these decades of walking with the Lord, all the knowledge of the Word of the Lord that you have, you should be bearing more fruit now than ever.

And the olive trees -- I mean, the oldest one that is on the earth, I think, is in Crete, and it's around 3,000 years old. Continuing to bear fruit today.

And, you know, Caleb -- if you remember in Scripture, Caleb was 85, and he said, "I'm as strong now as I was then. Now give me this" -- you know, he said, "Moses promised me Hebron." And he had born fruit right through to 85, and he goes, oh, I'm not stopping now.

And I feel -- and I hope somebody listening to this and listening to us right now, or watching us, is stirred to know you're not a -- if you woke up this morning and there was not a white chalk mark around your body, it means you're alive. And it means that God still wants to use you and there is fruit to be born that will bring glory to God. It's not like, well, I've done my time. I mean, we haven't done our time until we step over the threshold --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Christine Caine: -- into the other side of eternity.

So part of even my motivation in writing this was for women like 40 and above, like me -- I mean, I'm now 60 -- and going, Girls, if you're still breathing, God still has a plan. And there is -- you know, it is to our Father's great glory that we bear much fruit. You will not bear fruit if you're not willing to be pruned.

And so I really wanted to -- I wrote those chapters because I want to inspire -- I just think we've got a generation that has lost a generation of mothers in the faith. And so if I can encourage the mothers -- spiritually speaking now. It's got nothing to do with biology. But spiritually to say, Please don't abdicate your role. Please continue to bear fruit.

Because we have a generation of young women -- Paul wrote and he said, you know, "Teachers, you have many fathers." I would just add to that, "and mothers are lacking." And we need spiritual mothers and fathers. So we need women not to tap out before they're done, because we have much fruit to bear for God's glory.

But can I say that that means equally we're not exempt from the pruning process.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Christine Caine: The degree to which I am willing to allow the Lord to keep pruning me is the degree to which I will keep bearing fruit. When I thwart that pruning process, you know what? I'm going to stop bearing fruit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And sometimes I think, Christine, when we have been planted in Christ a long time and we bear beautiful fruit, sometimes we get very possessive of it thinking it's ours. Like we did something to grow this fruit and to produce it, you know?

Christine Caine: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And really, an olive tree does nothing but be an olive tree. It stays deeply rooted and it doesn't achieve anything. It just receives the olive tree life that God gave it and it does the olive tree thing. It's the same with us.

So I think, therefore, too, you're right, we need to grasp loosely. If God wants to prune something we think is a good thing, well, then so be it. It is for his glory.

---

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know that back in the '80s, I got a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Palm Beach Atlantic University, and I snagged a bachelor named Phil, who is no longer a bachelor because now he is my hubby. I got both from Palm Beach Atlantic University. Yeah, that's where I met my very own Dr. Phil in 1982. The degree I got, though, at PBA, it prepared me for the life and the calling that God had for me. And, to be honest, the guy I met there, he also made my life better, oh, and my calling even more rich.

So PBA is a premier Christian University in West Palm Beach, Florida, that offers whole person education that prepares every student from around the globe to tackle the big problems of their day with Godly character, open arms, and a servant's heart. Oh, that's what it did for me, and I want that for you. So if you have kids or grandkids who are wondering about their next step, well, step onto the campus of Palm Beach Atlantic University and I bet you will find that you belong. You can check it out at 413podcast.com/PBA.

All right. Now let's get back to this amazing conversation.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: But you know what else I was thinking as you're describing this -- and by the way, this is so inspiring. It's such a good perspective reminder, and I appreciate it. And I'm thinking as I'm visualizing this olive tree is the fruit, you know, the olive. The only way we get olive oil is for that olive to be pressed, you know, just like smushed.

Christine Caine: Oh, yes. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So make us that spiritual application about the fruit being pressed to produce the good stuff.

Christine Caine: Sure. And the pressing is -- you know, the fact is with olives, again, they can be pressed up to five times. Because there's medicinal qualities, there are food qualities.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I didn't know that.

Christine Caine: There are so many things that come out of the pressing. And so they get pressed and pressed and pressed and pressed, because with each pressing -- of course, you get the greatest olive oil with the first pressing, and then another layer of -- quality of olive oil.

But further to that, there are different things that you get out of -- when it continues to be pressed, that are beneficial for -- that have medicinal properties. You have other things -- you can make soap out of it. There's so many different things. So it's actually -- again, the more you allow it to be pressed, the more things that are produced from it.

And that would be the same in our life. The degree to which we are willing to go through the pressing process is the degree to which, you know, fresh oil -- I mean, of course, in Scripture, the oil and anointing are so intertwined. And the anointing, you know, to use the language, would be like the divine enablement of the Holy Spirit of God to do what we otherwise could not do. And who does not need the divine enablement of God --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

Christine Caine: -- in this world today? A lot of times people say to me, "Chris, how do you live your life?" you know. You're a wife and a mom, and you run a global anti-trafficking organization and travel and teach. And I go, "I couldn't do my life without God." It's actually not possible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Christine Caine: You know, I know that you're stunned. I'm stunned as well. But there is such a reliance on the spirit of God to fulfill the purpose of God. I think the Lord, Jennifer, actually very much has woven into our calling the impossibility to fulfill our calling without him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Thank you, Lord.

Christine Caine: It's like, You aren't going to be able to do this without me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Thank you, Lord.

Christine Caine: You know, like, What I've called you to is impossible, so just deal with it. And that's how he keeps us utterly dependent upon him.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Christine Caine: So to me -- and, of course, the imagery there is the Garden of Gethsemane, which is the olive grove. It's just -- all the olive trees are in Gethsemane. And that's where Jesus experienced a great crushing.

I mean, where he was praying to the Father, and, I mean, literally the anxiety was so strong that it was, you know, like -- it was actually a medical condition, you know, you're sweating drops of blood because there's just such -- none of us could even begin to understand that moment of when he's saying, "Father, if there's any other way, take this cup from me."

But that crush -- that's where Jesus' victory was, in Gethsemane. And many of us -- because that's when he said, "But nevertheless, not my will, but yours." So that was when it was all a done deal. Then there's the Cross and, yes, all the victory that's attained on the Cross. The decision, though, was in Gethsemane.

And I think many of us, we've had a lot of Gethsemane moments that really are the making or the breaking of our spiritual life, where everything in you maybe wants to take another path or make a decision in a certain way, but -- and I have to ask, when was the last time we were on our knees going, "Nevertheless, Lord" --

Jennifer Rothschild: Nevertheless.

Christine Caine: -- "not my will, but yours."

And in the culture in which we live, there's a very fine line between my will being celebrated and my will being subordinated to the will of God. And I think we have to be very careful that that doesn't cross in where in our -- you know, the age and the culture in which we live in, which is all about, you know, living your best life, you do you boo --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Christine Caine: -- self-actualization, self-fulfillment, that truly the way of the Cross and the way of the Gospel is that we deny ourselves. We take up our cross and we follow him. But there are moments that we all come to.

And I think -- when I think, Jennifer, the fruit of my life and where there has been the greatest healing in other people's life -- you know, you use the oil for medicinal properties. You know, I come from a background of -- I was left in a hospital unnamed and unwanted when I was born. I was sexually abused for many years in my childhood. I was adopted out. I mean, so many things that were very traumatic.

But as I brought those things and allowed the Lord to do a deep work -- which at times felt so crushing internally. Out of that, so many people across the globe have found freedom and healing and wholeness in Christ, and God has allowed my past and my past pain to give other people a future.

But I've got to tell you, it didn't come without a lot of Gethsemane moments of, "Nevertheless, not my will, but yours." And the more I do that -- even at 60 years old. And the more there are those Gethsemane moments that you feel like are going to crush you -- but they're not. They're producing oil through you that will bring healing to other people.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I can testify to that. I have seen that in your life. I have seen that in many people's lives. May we all live the nevertheless in Jesus name.

Christine Caine: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I want to loop back to something you said, Christine, earlier about extending the olive branch, talking about peace. So I'm curious your take on that and how -- like, why that has such cultural ramifications, how it deals with our own flourishing, and what it really means.

Christine Caine: Well, totally, Jennifer. I'm like -- we're recording this in 2026. We need olive branches around the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, all over.

Christine Caine: The divisiveness and the chaos and the pain. You know, the fact is that -- I mean, of course, Jesus -- we're called to be peacemakers on the earth. That's part of our mandate. We can't do this in our own strength. And I think, again, what we'll find with the faith to flourish is we've got to keep coming back to our source. I mean, Jesus himself is our peace. He is the Prince of Peace.

And I think it's a time to remind believers -- for some reason, I just think -- especially when it comes to things like social media, believers have forgotten that Jesus actually really knows what we're posting and what we're saying and what we're doing. I'm kind of like, y'all, you do realize he knows what we're saying.

And, you know, when I think of the -- obviously, I've been involved in women's ministry for decades, and in youth ministry, so you become really aware of just how many homes are not peaceful and how many people's internal world isn't peaceful, let alone the state of the world and the wars and the chaos and the divisiveness. And I think truly what we're seeing externally played out in the world is the condition of so many of our hearts.

And so I think what we need to do is get back to our source, Jesus. Again, everything in the faith to flourish comes back to he is our source, he is the person. We have to go to the Prince of Peace himself. We have to come to this place where Jesus is our peace internally. Because if we're waiting for this world to get peaceful before we find peace, or our husband to change, or our kids to change, or our neighbor to change, or our boss to change, it's not going to happen.

So if we're rooted and grounded in Christ, we're drawing our nourishment from him, we're drawing our peace from him, then the byproduct of that is in our homes, in our workplaces, in our communities. We ought to be the bearers of peace, the peacemakers, the ones that extend the olive branch. And in a world where everyone is canceling everyone and everyone is writing everyone off, do you realize what a testimony and a witness it would be to a lost and a broken world if we proactively were the bearers of the olive branch -- metaphorically speaking, of course, if we were the peacemakers?

And, you know, when I look at it, even think in Romans when we were grafted in, I mean, we were the ones that were out -- and again, it's the olive branch that is used. You and I were grafted in. We were the olive -- like, God was so gracious to us that he grafted us in the olive branch. He took the -- you know, we were the unhealthy one of the dead one and he put us into life, into himself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, gave us life, yeah.

Christine Caine: So therefore, we should, at the very least, be the people that are extending olive branches everywhere we go and being advocates for peace and proactively not adding to the chaos and the tension. And, you know, I'm talking to you as someone that obviously advocates for the victims of human trafficking and, you know, puts traffickers in jail and all of that, so I'm saying that there are some things that we should be angry about, like that kind of injustice in the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course, yes.

Christine Caine: Human trafficking is wrong. There are so many -- abuse is wrong. There are so many things.

But again, the way we go about bringing peace is very important. And I think just adding to -- the Bible says that the anger of man does not bring about the righteousness of God. So there is a way we ought to go about doing what we need to do as we bring justice and righteousness into the earth. And we do it through being pacemakers.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we do.

Christine Caine: There has to be love undergirding it. And I think when you look at the olive tree and the olive branch and -- I mean, you just think so many places around the world that that olive branch and olive leaves are used as signs of peace, and yet we should be the greatest carriers of peace because he is our peace. Peace and joy and love, that ought to be fruit that is a byproduct of being a Christian. If the same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead lives on the inside of you and me --

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach.

Christine Caine: -- we ought to be bearing this fruit. That ought to be a sign that you're in Christ. Because if you're in Christ -- just like the olive tree doesn't sit there and go, Oh, I'm going to make olives, I'm going to make olives, I'm going to make -- it doesn't force itself. It's a byproduct.

So love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, long suffering, these are not little Sunday school lessons for the kids in kids' church. This should be a byproduct of being a Christian. The same spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is who lives in us. We are sealed with the spirit of God until the day of redemption.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah.

Christine Caine: We ought to be producing this fruit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, it reminds me -- I just last week got to talk, Christine, to Shannon Bream. She is with Fox News Sunday, and she is a woman of God, deep abiding faith. And one of the questions I asked her was, you know, how do you -- because her book was about nothing being impossible with God. And I said, "Let's talk the impossible," which is like peace in our culture, because we other each other and we disagree. And she's, of course, on the front lines dealing with people with great political fervor. And she always keeps her cool. She's so respectful. And I know it is because of Christ in her.

But I asked her about it. And you know what she said? She said, you know, we're not here to build our own kingdom, we're not here to build our political opinions. We're not here to build anything but Christ's kingdom. And she said, so everything we do should be toward that end, making peace, and to love each other well. Those whom we disagree with, to love them well, to be the peace of Christ in their life. That is what you're explaining here, too. It's not even just something we do. It is who we are. It should be an outgrowth. Just like the olives are the fruit of the tree, the peace should be the fruit of our lives.

But as I'm thinking about this too -- like even with what you do with human trafficking. Okay? So I'm curious, can you make peace without disruption and disturbing what, you know, seems to be peace? Like, is that always possible?

Christine Caine: I mean, I wrote a chapter on that. Because it's true, there are some tables that need to be flipped, there's no doubt about it. You know -- and I wrote this with caution because, of course, you know, we go into nations and we disrupt systems that are unjust that enable trafficking. So that has to happen.

But it seems like in the culture that we're in, that some people think that flipping tables is their whole ministry. I'm like, there's only one example of that in Scripture that Jesus did it. There is not -- you know, you've got to look at it sort of as a precedent. It's not that every day everything we read in the Gospels is Jesus flipping tables.

And I'm wondering, if you've sort of got the ministry of flipping tables incorporated, maybe, just maybe, you know, there's something not right. So very definitely is there, you know, systems of toxicity or abuse or injustice where you are going to have to disrupt the peace in order to bring peace. There is no doubt about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word. Good word.

Christine Caine: And I am very committed to that. Obviously, I've got whole decades of that in my life.

But also in the midst of a chaotic, divisive culture, where sometimes you're just adding to the noise and venting and it's not really to bring peace, it's not disrupting the peace to bring peace, it's just adding to the noise in order to continue the chaos, I think we need the wisdom of God in this age to know the difference. And you can't do that unless you're deeply rooted and grounded in Christ.

And I think obviously because of social media, we could just sort of, you know, just write everything and somehow just send and post as if it doesn't matter or use our mouths to both bring good or destruction. You know, we really have to come back to our basic Christianity, you know, watch what we're saying and watch what we're posting and just ask the Lord, is this adding -- is this something I'm supposed to be doing? Is this enabling peace? Or, like, do I need to disrupt the peace in this case to bring peace or am I just venting out of my own unhealed wounds?

I think this is what we can learn from the olive tree. We have got to -- I'm going to keep coming back to it. We've got to be rooted and grounded in Christ. I mean, truly we've got to go deeper in our root system than we've ever gone.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Okay. Well, that leads me to this. Because you talk about abiding. In your book you say the degree to which you are abiding in Christ is the degree to which you will experience fruitfulness. So first of all I want you to talk in practical sense what does it mean to abide, because that's a church word that we may not know what it actually means. And then secondly, what kind of fruit do we expect if we're abiding?

Christine Caine: Well, for sure. And I think abiding is, to me, any way that you are walking daily intimately with Jesus. And, you know, we can use our spiritual disciplines to help us do that. I love that because, you know, you're in the Word or you're in worship, part of a church community, things that to me -- these are not legalistic practices, these are things that help us to abide. That is what keeps us close to Jesus.

And it's the reality. It's not some deeply mystical, ethereal, weird thing. It's walking with Jesus every day, like, you know, and staying connected to him. You could be going for a walk along the beach, you could be walking out in nature, you know.

But to me, our spiritual disciplines -- over 40 years of following Jesus, staying daily in the Word, you know, worshiping the Lord -- thank God we've got access to such phenomenal worship music -- being part of a strong, you know, Jesus loving, Bible believing church. These things for me are what have kept me. They have kept me abiding. They have kept me connected to Jesus.

You know, the practice of, for me, silence and solitude. I have a very sort of public life, so me just withdrawing where I can for any amount of time that I can find of just where it's me and the Lord. Like truly, when I say things like he's my most intimate friend, it's not -- I'm not just saying that. It's like -- you know, the longer you walk with him, just the more natural -- it's an overflow.

You know, I'm with him when I'm reading the Word and when I'm driving, you know. And I'm playing worship music in the car, and it's me and him, and I'm worshiping him. And when I'm just going for a walk along the beach -- I live here in Southern California -- and I need to think things through. And when I say talk things out, you know, I'm talking to him.

To me, the abiding is this minute-by-minute just reliance on him, you know. And it truly is as natural as the air I breathe nowadays. Like, you know, my thing is I very quickly know if I'm not more than I know that I am. Like, I'm just -- it's just such a part of -- after four decades of -- it's not like, oh, now I'm going to step into me and God time. It's like -- to me, Jesus time is just like -- the more intimate you become, the more he becomes part of your just normal everyday life. You could be cooking, you could be driving to work, you could be having a conversation.

You're just more and more aware of the presence of God, that God is just with you. God is with you wherever you are. But then the intentional moments I have of time in the Word, time, you know, in community, those things strengthen me in many different ways.

So to me, that's what I mean by abiding. If you're trying to get through this life on Planet Earth, 168 hours a week, by just dropping into church for an hour a week, it's going to be really hard. That's what I'm saying.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Christine Caine: You know, that's not really -- you have 168 hours. And say you're in church for one hour, if you go. The other 167 hours, you are being bombarded with everything that is designed to take you away from God. So unless you are staying connected to him with great intentionality, the byproduct is you are just going to drift during the week. You go, "But I go to church on Sunday." But the other 167 hours, there is so much else going on.

And my dad used to always say, Jennifer -- he'd take us swimming. We'd go to this particular beach in Australia, in Sydney, just an hour north of where I grew up. And there was a huge undertow, a rip current in this beach. And every year people would die. I always say I'm not sure why our parents took us there, whether there was a subliminal message. But anyway...

So we would go and -- but my dad would always kind of put up two beach umbrellas, you know, a distance apart. And he would say to us three kids -- he'd always say to us, "Make sure that you're checking your markers regularly. Look up at these two beach umbrellas, make sure that you're swimming between the beach umbrellas. These are your markers."

And he said, "Because kids, you will go out there, and you're going to be swimming and having fun and just enjoying the sea, but here's what's going to happen without you realizing it. There's a tow, there's an undercurrent underneath, an undertow, that is going to be carrying you out to sea. And so you've got to check your markers, because, kids, always remember, all you have to do to drift is nothing." Just do nothing and you will drift.

So when I talk about abiding and then having certain disciplines that help us to abide, what I am saying, these are not things that make you a Christian or in and of themselves make you any closer to God. They make sure that I'm within the markers and I'm not drifting away, that I'm staying connected. That's why I have those checks and balances in my life, to make sure that I'm not drifting. Because all you have to do to drift away from Jesus and stop producing fruit is nothing. Nothing. Just do nothing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is so profound and so scary and so -- I mean, I'm so glad you said that. What you have to do to drift is nothing.

Okay. So there's some people right now who might feel a little of the drift, and suddenly they've had this epiphany and they don't want to just stay drifting or languishing. So you write about this concept of moving from languishing to flourishing. So someone listening, they're there, what can they do if that's the case?

Christine Caine: I love that. And, you know, there's so many different things, and it depends -- part of this is on your personality. Now, firstly, here is -- the great beauty of the Gospel is, you know, you cannot out drift the love or the grace or the mercy of God, which is beautiful. We thank God for all of us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes, yes.

Christine Caine: So someone listening to this might think, Christine, you know, I knew better, and here I am languishing out here somewhere and just -- and why would God want me back? Well, let me tell you first and foremost, God wants you back. And he never left you. Anyway, no matter -- you never out drifted his love or his grace or his care or his attention.

And that's the beauty and the mystery of the Gospel. And so the first thing is just acknowledging it and knowing you don't even have to do the hard work of coming back. He will draw you back. He will already do that.

But I think it's the recognition of just saying to him in your own way, "I long to come back," whatever that might mean and however that might look. And if certainly you've got any people that were -- you know, I'm a big believer in community. If there's somebody that you can reach out to is a great start. Like, any of my friends -- and I've had -- over the last ten years, I can say -- especially in the last two years -- several people that sort of kind of drifted by the wayside for different things, but kind of contact me out of the blue and -- I mean, it's nothing but a delight for me to come back and go, Come on, let's start walking together again, let's start running together again.

And a lot of us have done and said things in the last few years that we wish we hadn't, and I think you're going to find that there's more grace than you realize. And don't allow the enemy to lie to you. Because I think a lot of people want to come back into community, want to come back into relationship with the Lord, want to pick up the Word again, want to listen to worship again, but almost feel this sense of sort of shame because of -- you know, it's been a brutal season. And I just want to say to them that, you know, your God loves you and you can always come home. That's the beauty of the Gospel.

And so whether you're reaching out to someone or, you know, you want to pick up a book or you want to pick up the Word, just take the next step and you will be stunned at how God will meet you in that place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. That is the grace, the grace of Jesus to us and through us.

Christine Caine: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Christine, this is so good. I cannot wait -- I just kind of skimmed, and now I cannot wait to read your book fully. The nerd in me, this is Christ in me, all of me. And I know my people are going to feel the same. But we're going to get to our last question. Okay?

In your book you also write about having evergreen faith.

Christine Caine: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So just tell us, how do we have -- or foster that kind of faith?

Christine Caine: You know, again, you're going to go -- everything --

Jennifer Rothschild: Same answer, right?

Christine Caine: Abiding in Christ. Because -- you know, and Isaiah says -- in Isaiah 40:31, it says, "Those that wait upon the Lord." So you can insert whatever, abide in God, be rooted and grounded in Jesus. So those that wait upon the Lord shall what? Renew their strength. They will mount up on wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not faint. And can I just say, Jennifer, you know, I've been -- I keep saying I'm 60 because I love it. I love saying my age. Well, I'm going to be this year, but I'm celebrating all year.

Jennifer Rothschild: You should.

Christine Caine: So that's my thing. But my deal is that I probably have been speaking this verse over my life for over three decades. So there's a few verses that I might say out loud every day. This would be one of them. And even when I was, like, 30, I would say, "Christine, you know, you're going to wait upon the Lord, and you will run and not grow weary. You will walk and not faint." The key is waiting upon the Lord. The key is being rooted and grounded in Christ.

And I can testify that here I am in my 60th year, and by God's grace I am more pumped up than ever. I mean, listen -- and I've seen more than ever. I mean, if I had any reason to be cynical or disappointed -- I mean, I've got more reasons four decades later than I did four decades ago, if that was the case.

But can I say, as I've learned to fix my eyes on Jesus and to be rooted and grounded in Christ, I feel more peace than ever, more joy than ever, more love than ever. I love him more than ever. I don't know how you could fix your eyes on him and be rooted and grounded in him and not be more full of him and love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, long suffering, self-control, and becoming more like him.

And I just think that's a byproduct of really just being rooted and grounded in Christ. And I don't have to then think that my fruit bearing is depending on what's happening around me. I know that my fruit bearing is dependent on how deep my root system goes into Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, you heard the woman, Simply put, fix your eyes on him and be full of him. Stay rooted and grounded and flourish. Isn't that the way we want to live? I mean, and didn't you just love all the olive tree insights? Doesn't it make you just want to read more? Me too. Me too. And it also made me want to add a few olives to my lunch here when we're done.

Even better, though, my people, we need to add her book to our libraries. So we're going to have a link to Christine's book, "The Faith to Flourish" at 413podcast.com/394, so that you can get a copy. And while you're there, of course, you can read the transcript of this conversation.

By the way, I'm also going to link you -- so you need to go to the Show Notes, because I'm going to link you to another great podcast conversation I had a while back with author Margaret Feinberg. Because she touched on the olive tree and olives in Scripture and just the spiritual ramifications. So I think that would be a super nice complement to this conversation.

All right, our people. I told you, I've hit the road. I'm out and about for the Hope of the Heaven Tour with Kelly Minter. We're in Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina. Here we come. And I hope you can come too.

All right. But with this conversation, that's it for today. It's a wrap. So remember, no matter whatever you face, no matter how you feel, oh, my friends, you can flourish. I can flourish. Because you know what? All of us, we can do all things through Christ who gives us strength. I can. And that means you can.

All right, we'll see you next week. KC, get back in town. We miss you. I need a friend in the closet. (Singing) I'm lonely. I'm lonely without you. One is the loneliest number.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Believe Nothing Is Impossible With God? With Shannon Bream [Episode 393]

Shannon Bream: I learned so much from it because all I had was the Lord at that darkest valley. And I try to describe to people -- it's bittersweet. Like, I wouldn't have chosen this, I didn't want to walk through that valley, I wanted to get out of it as quickly as possible, but the closeness and the realness and the depth of my relationship with him was a blessing from this.

And it was different. It was a different way than learning when you're on the mountaintops and when things are good. And like I said, I wouldn't have chosen it, but I learned so much of his presence and of his realness and empathy for other people with whatever they're struggling with.

Jennifer Rothschild: Shannon Bream, the number one New York Times bestselling author of "The Women of the Bible Speak," is with us today, and she has got just what you need if you are facing something that feels impossible. So on today's episode, Shannon is going to chronicle some very unlikely biblical heroes, from Jonah, who ran away from his mission; to Elijah, who went from miracles to a flat-out meltdown; and to Peter, the impulsive fisherman who became a rock of our faith.

And even better, Shannon herself is going to share her own impossible, and, my friend, you are going to be blown away by God's grace and that woman's perseverance. This conversation is going to comfort you, inspire you, and equip you for all that you face, because the truth is, nothing is impossible with God.

So, KC, let's do it.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, this is Jennifer. And that was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. And I always say that it's two friends and one topic and zero stress.

But full disclaimer, right now it's one friend. KC's not here. I used the recording of his voice, my friends, because he woke up with a head cold. And he didn't want to get me sick, because we're stuck in the closet, and also because, you know, he probably wouldn't have sounded like his normal self.

But anyway, so he's not here, so it's just us, you and me with one topic. And, yes, there will be zero stress because, oh, my goodness, today's conversation, Shannon Bream.

Now, some of you may know who she is because you might watch Fox News Sunday Morning. Phil and I do before we head off to church. I just love Shannon because she's so balanced. She's got such kindness about her, such discretion. And, yeah, let's just be honest, the woman is brilliant.

But I got to meet her -- and I'll mention this in the conversation in a minute -- at the College of the Ozarks, because she was the commencement speaker. And she was amazing. And I received an award, so we had an opportunity before the event started to just kind of connect, and we found out we both lived in Tallahassee, Florida. She's just so down to earth, so I can't wait for you to hear from our sister.

But I wanted you to also know that I am hitting the road soon this month and next month for the Hope of Heaven Tour -- we've already told you a little bit about it -- with Kelly Minter in March and Point of Grace in April. So it's going to be in eight different cities. That means there's a good chance it's going to be near you, and I don't want you to miss it. So you'll want to check it out on the Show Notes later, or you can just Google my name and Hope of Heaven Tour.

All right. Now, since KC's not here, I'm going to try my very best to introduce Shannon as well as I can. And I can't wait for you to hear this conversation.

So Shannon Bream serves as the anchor of Fox News Sunday, and she is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, "The Women of the Bible Speak." Shannon also serves as the Chief Legal Correspondent for her network, and she is the host of the Livin' The Bream Podcast, which if you haven't heard, you must check it out. She's married to Sheldon, who I got to meet, and he is an amazing man, and they have a cute little dog named Biscuit.

All right, my people, you are going to love this conversation, so settle in and listen to Shannon.

All right, Shannon. I got a little bit of an opportunity to get to know you just a little bit at the College of Ozarks back in the fall. It was such a treat. And so when I had this opportunity, I could not wait to talk to you. I can't wait for my 4:13ers to get to meet you. Now, I know I already gave you, like, your fancy intro, but this is going to be a sister conversation, and so it's just going to be -- we're going to talk about your book, which is entitled "Nothing Is Impossible with God."

But before we get there, I just got to tell you, I cannot help but think of, like, an impossible situation that I know you face. Now, people may not know that you really endured this difficult and painful eye condition. So I want us to start there. I want you to take us there and then talk about how that season either shaped or shook your faith.

Shannon Bream: Oh, boy, I would say both for sure. I was around my 40th birthday. And I've always had vision trouble. I was the little kid with the big thick glasses, like, in third grade and -- you know, my peepers have not been the best. But it wasn't until around that time that I started to have real pain. And I jolted up one night in bed and knew something was wrong. Ran to the bathroom, my eye is tearing. I really can't open it, it's so light sensitive, and excruciating pain.

And, you know, I eventually kind of -- I tried compresses, I tried eye drops, but eventually got back to sleep. And I woke up with this terrible migraine, double vision from whatever had happened to me. And I thought, well, that was so strange. What a one-off kind of thing.

And it was only a matter of weeks before it started happening in both eyes. And I couldn't figure out what was going on. Went to my regular eye doctor and he said, Listen, women around their 40s -- your birthday is coming. You will experience dry eye and different changes, and maybe it's that. So we followed up a couple of times, but it was really within a matter of weeks getting to be a very serious problem where I was in this excruciating pain with whatever was happening with my eyeballs.

So I went to go see a specialist. And he was about an hour from where I lived, but highly recommended. Went to him, got some initial feedback from him on what may be going on. He sent me away with a couple of, you know, lotions and potions and things to try. And within a matter of months, I was just crippled by this thing. I couldn't even take a shower without taking eye drops in there with me. Which sounds bizarre, but even water touching my eyes was painful.

And so I just fell into this really dark hole where I couldn't sleep, because I knew whatever this was, when I fell asleep, it was going to happen. I started setting alarms to try to get ahead of it, put additional eye drops and things in my eyes, because I knew if I woke up with this, it was going to be a 10 out of 10 on the pain scale.

Went back to that doctor now deeply into the situation, and he said to me, "You know, you seem very emotional." And I thought, oh, I'm emotional. I was real emotional. But that devastated me. I thought, this guy can't help me, I'm not getting -- I'm getting progressively worse, and my life has been taken over by this thing. And no one but my husband understands this. I'm hiding it from work, I don't want to seem like I can't do my job, but I'm holding on by a thread.

And so I didn't go back to a doctor for months after that because I was so discouraged, but really got to a place where I thought, you know, my life is not worth living. I'm living just trying to exist in pain all the time. And I started searching online. Which I always tell people don't do that because you will quickly find out that you have all the worst diseases and maladies and you're not going to make it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Shannon Bream: But I did find a chat room where people were talking about very similar symptoms, and so I thought, all right, I'm not alone in this. These other people were talking about being turned away from emergency rooms and from doctors who didn't get it and, you know, all the things. And so I sat down at one point with my precious husband, Sheldon -- which, by the way, he says hello to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: I loved meeting him. Yes, he's awesome.

Shannon Bream: I mean, he is a lifesaver and just such a great partner in life. I thank God for him every day.

And I said to him, you know, these people on this website, on these chat rooms, are talking about just taking their own lives. They can't live like this anymore. And it didn't sound crazy to me. I mean, in my mind it made sense. You know, I just want to go to sleep and wake up with the Lord. I can't do this anymore.

And I think we both were startled enough by how deep I'd gotten at that point that we knew I needed other help. So we prayed. And I prayed, Lord, if you're not going to heal me, if this is going to be my thorn in the side, I need a doctor to at least walk this through with -- I need a diagnosis. I need some help. And I prayed that night. We prayed to find a doctor.

And the next day I started working the phones. A really amazing cornea specialist in D.C., who was very in demand, wasn't really taking new patients, I kind of made my case on the phone with his receptionist, who was so kind. And she's like, "Can you hold on just a minute?" And she came back and said, "We just had a cancelation. Can you come in tomorrow"? So I say to this doctor every time I see him, "You know you're an answer to prayer," which kind of weirds him out, but it's really true.

So I went into that appointment the next day. I prayed, "Lord, get me through tonight. Just get me through one more night to this doctor." I got there, we filled out all the paperwork. His P.A. worked with me, did the file workup. And I heard the doctor pick up the file before he came in the room in that little slot outside the door. And he came in and he said, "I know what you have."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Shannon Bream: He hadn't examined me yet, but he was very sure. Sure enough, he did this exam and realized I have a genetic condition, that I'd never been diagnosed with before, which causes my corneas to constantly tear. And so if you've ever scratched your eye, ever had that problem, I was doing that for really a couple of years constantly. And what would happen is my eyes would just dry out, like they do at night for all of us, and my eyelid would adhere to my cornea. And then when my eye would move, it would tear the cornea. And so I was never getting better and I was just getting tear on top of tear on top of tear.

And he described it to me, he said, you know, like if somebody goes out and plays football or soccer and the cleats are ripping up that field and it never gets repaired, and they just keep playing game after game on it, you're like -- your corneas are a disaster. So I got it. And it all made total sense to me about why it was happening at night, why the dryness was such a problem, and I just felt the first flicker of hope in almost two years at that point.

But before we wrapped up, he said, "Let's get you a follow-up appointment," this, that, and the other. "But what you need to know is there is no existing cure for this." And I was so distraught in leaving there. I don't even remember getting out of the office, but I clearly made another appointment. But I somehow stumbled out to my car. Sheldon was waiting for me to call. And I sat in my car just sobbing and sobbing and sobbing.

And you know the story. I don't feel I audibly heard God say this, but in a way that could only be said that he was speaking in my spirit, I felt him say to me, "I will be with you." Not that I'm going to heal you and this is all going away, but "I will be with you." And that was enough to keep me going to that next appointment, to that next medication we tried, each new thing.

And I eventually got to a place where I had a surgery that doesn't always work. Thank the Lord, in my case it's been successful. It was a real tough recovery, but I learned so much from it because all I had was the Lord at that darkest valley. And I try to describe to people it's bitter sweet. Like, I wouldn't have chosen this, I didn't want to walk through that valley, I wanted to get out of it as quickly as possible, but the closeness and the realness and the depth of my relationship with him was a blessing from this.

And it was different. It was a different way than learning when you're on the mountaintops and when things are good. And like I said, I wouldn't have chosen it, but I learned so much of his presence and of his realness and of empathy for other people with whatever they're struggling with too. So there were plenty of good lessons to come from it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, I hear it, and I think too -- it reminds me, Shannon, of Psalm 23. You know, when you read Psalm 23, the first few verses, it says, "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He restores my soul; he guides me," et cetera. But when you get to that -- maybe it's verse 4 -- "Even when I walk through the valley," the pronoun changes from "he" to "you." And that's what you're describing.

The psalmist says, When I'm in the darkest valley, you are with me. Your rod, your staff. And that's what you're explaining, is that nearness. That you would have never chosen the setting, but you experienced a nearness. And I just think that's such an encouragement.

So now do you have any more pain or any more residual, or are you well from it?

Shannon Bream: Listen, I'm well probably 98% of the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good.

Shannon Bream: And so it truly gave me my life back once I got to the point where I had the surgery, which I knew would be very difficult. It, for me, has been a huge blessing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you, Lord.

Shannon Bream: So I would occasionally -- yes, thank you, Lord.

I mean -- and the fact is, when they did the surgery on my corneas, they did correction too. Because like I said, I was the little kid with the Coke bottle glasses. So the fact that I'm not wearing contacts and that I can see, it's just -- I sometimes will see a bird or a street sign and just say, "Thank you, Lord," I mean, "just for the healing that you've given me." And when I do have a cornea tear now, it's much less severe and the healing is much quicker than it used to be, so I'm just so grateful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, I hear all this too, and I'm hoping that our listeners remember when we introduced you earlier, you are on the news all the time. Like, you're reading on the news, you're on camera. It's not like you can just put on your glasses and say, "Hey, guys, I don't feel good today, I'm not coming in."

So the fact that you could show up and be 100% during this season really is an attest to your tenacity and to the grace of God, and I marvel at that. Because I do podcasts on audio for a reason. I'm not putting on makeup and getting in front of a camera if I don't have to. So, well done. Thank you, Lord.

So here's a question, though, I'm curious about. You know, your book is called "Nothing Is Impossible With God," based on a Scripture, of course. And it's true, right? Nothing -- nothing is impossible. But you dealt with this difficult season. So I'm curious, during that time did you ever wrestle with that question? Like, God, if nothing's impossible, why don't you fix it?

Shannon Bream: Luckily -- like, we would talk about Scripture comes alive in a different way when you're struggling and walking through that valley of the shadow of death. Because I knew Paul's story. I knew in Corinthians where he says -- you know, he asks for this thorn to be taken from him. And God didn't do it, but he said, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in your weakness."

And I knew those verses, I'd always claimed them, but I knew them in a different way when I walked through this. Because that was that prayer that I had. "All right, Lord, if this thorn isn't going away, I need you to walk me through it."

And I know that sometimes when we hit challenges, we can become angry or frustrated with the Lord. He can handle our questions. All throughout Scripture we see people who try to argue with God, which from our vantage we're like, "How crazy are you?" And then I'm like, "Oh, yes, I've argued with God," you know. So I think that he can take our questions.

And I never, though, felt distanced or angry at him, like, why am I walking through this? I might have had the why, but not ever you're not a good God or you don't love me. I never got to that point. I knew he was the bedrock that I had in the midst of all of this.

And, yes, I prayed for healing. Yes, I prayed for those miracles. But I also knew that might not be his plan. And he does answer, and he's provided me a way forward, but I learned so many lessons through this about being vulnerable. I am super independent. Let other people help you. Be empathetic. You don't know what that person -- the coworker next to you, what they may be walking through right now. They may be broken and barely hanging on by a thread. Like, I got so many things from it, so I never felt --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's worthy.

Shannon Bream: Yeah, I never felt abandoned by the Lord. And I just -- I'm sure I had whys along the way, but -- and I know that a lot of things won't be answered for us this side of heaven, but I feel grateful that I've gotten some answers this side of heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and who knows if the real answer is the greater gift of empathy and vulnerability --

Shannon Bream: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because that just really allows you to relate more deeply.

You know, I was thinking too -- because I've been asked with blindness if I ever get angry with God. And I had to really examine, Shannon. Like, I was a psych major, so I'm like, I'm not angry with God, so what's wrong with me? Shouldn't I have latent rage that I'm not acknowledging, you know? So I really have studied my soul.

And I think for me, I -- I have never had the burning why or the anger toward God, like an angry why, because I need him so much. Number one, I love him so much. But then also, I need him. And why would I ever separate myself from my only true source of stability and health by being angry?

Shannon Bream: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's counterproductive. It's not worth it. And I also just love him too much. I don't want to give that toward him. But I do understand someone who's listening may be struggling. And that's part of the process, you know, it's part of the process.

---

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, my friends, I am not sure if I've ever told you this, but I went to Palm Beach Atlantic University in West Palm Beach, Florida, and that one choice, oh, man, it shaped my life in all the best ways.

Palm Beach Atlantic is a Christian University located in dreamy West Palm Beach, Florida, overlooking the Intracoastal Waterway. Oh, it is so beautiful there. But the most beautiful part is that PBA offers a Christ-centered, academically rigorous education that equips students to lead fulfilling lives through learning, leadership, and service. That's what it did for me, and I want that for you and your people. So check it out at 413podcast.com/PBA.

All right. Now let's get back to this great conversation.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: I do know that sometimes Christians think that faith means, oh, God's just going to take care of this. He's going to quickly remove this thorn or this hardship, right? So what did your experience teach you about God's timing or his apparent silence? Did you have any takeaways about his timing or his apparent silence during this season?

Shannon Bream: Knowing that he is sovereign over everything and everything comes through his hands, I had to believe that there was a reason for all of this and his timing and the seeking of answers. And, listen, I loved his timing when Sheldon and I prayed and said, "Please help me find the right doctor," and the next day I had that doctor. I mean, sometimes it is an immediate answer to you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shannon Bream: And so sometimes there's that.

But I also know that that period, as difficult it was, it did mature my faith in a different way. And I joke about -- in telling other parts of my story when I got fired from my first TV job by this boss who told me I was the worst person ever and I would never make it, that wasn't fun either. But I'd already walked through that and seen how God had used that valley for me professionally, so I knew that he was going to do something personally.

Like, I knew that he did not want me to just live in existence of complete and utter and total pain all the time and have no reason in it. Because sometimes we don't get physical relief. But I think that we do get spiritual relief and growth and help from him in those valleys.

And you're right, somebody listening now may be in the worst part of one of those valleys. Maybe it's them or someone they love. Or, you know, they've lost a job or lost a loved one or they're struggling with their own diagnosis, and it can feel really, really painful in that place. But I know that God's timing was perfect in leading me to that doctor, in allowing me to grow these empathy muscles that I needed to develop, frankly, and just learning to grow closer to him.

So I had to just rest in the fact that there was something going on and that he hadn't just left me to drift with no hope of a connection with him or his purpose.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there was purpose. And the purpose is still being realized.

You know, I know a little bit of your story. So you've already mentioned that one of the Scriptures you held on to was the 2 Corinthians 12 about God's grace being sufficient. But was there a song that you really resonated with during this season?

Shannon Bream: Yeah, you know, I did. I love Lauren Daigle. She's so talented. In fact, I was just listening to her "Let It Be A Hallelujah," which is such a glorious song of praise.

But this is years ago. Laura Story, to me, is very much like Lauren in that they tell these stories that are beautiful and personal and painful through their life stories. And if you know Laura Story's story, it is amazing. And she's written a book. I would encourage people to read it too, because it's also about walking through trials and suffering and how God works through that.

But back then, she had a song called "Blessings." And I'd heard it a million times. It played all the time on Christian radio. I played it all the time. I loved it. But it wasn't till I was kind of getting to the back end of starting to get some healing with my corneas that the songs hit me -- the lyrics to the song in the chorus hit me like a ton of bricks.

"What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know you're near?" You know, this idea of what if your blessings come through raindrops and tears? And I thought, oh, my goodness, Lord, I probably had a thousand sleepless nights through this, but I did learn your nearness through that. And I just think Laura is such a gifted songwriter, and that was born of her own pain.

And so again, it's kind of that cycle of someone else suffering, them being transparent and the Lord giving them a beautiful message through that suffering. And her song was just such a -- truly a blessing to me, this song called "Blessings," and those lyrics just jumped out at me and were so, so true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I think that is one of the songs that the Lord has used for this generation, kind of like "It Is Well With My Soul" was for that generation behind us.

Shannon Bream: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've had Laura on the podcast -- and 4:13ers, we will link to that also so you'll be able to hear some other episodes with Laura. Because Shannon's right, her books are wonderful. She is an incredible woman. So, yeah, I'm so glad you shared that. It is one of the most meaningful songs, I believe, of this generation.

All right. So, Shannon, let's move to your book. Okay? So in your book, you cover 11 faith heroes. So now you've shared with us a lot of your story, so I -- or part of your story. So I'm curious, in those 11 heroes, did you see your story in any of them?

Shannon Bream: Well, you know, in so many of them. And I think different days, it's like you feel a different, you know, connection to one of these characters. Because you've got people who were willing to go into what God asked them to do immediately, like Nehemiah, somebody like that. I love his story. And sometimes you feel like, yes, Lord, I'm stepping up, I'm ready to go.

But there are many other stories, like Moses or Jonah, who are like, no, Lord, I'm going to sit here and argue with you about what you're telling me about myself or what you're asking me to do. So I definitely have days where I do that as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Bream: So I feel like in every one of these stories, I think all of us can find part of our journey probably. But the thing that's so great is whether these people started out faithful and ready to go or they had some apprehension, or just out and out fought and tried to argue with the God of the universe, he ended up using their stories. I mean, he works through all of us whether we've messed up, whether we're faithful. I think every one of these stories has that redemption arc to it for sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that was what I was going to ask you. If you could determine one red thread or just distill one common thread from all 11 stories, what would it be? And you think it's the redemptive story?

Shannon Bream: I think, sure, yes. Whether we're on board or not, God can redeem when we do come to him ultimately and say, Okay, I get it. Use me, let's move forward with this thing.

I also think that -- you know, every one of these situations that I write about, the idea is of overcoming. And it's based on John 16:33 where Jesus says to the disciples, "You're going to have trouble in this world, but take heart because I've overcome this world." And every one of these stories has that same overcoming aspect. Whether it's overcoming loneliness, people scheming against you, your own self-doubt, there's that threat of overcoming too.

And I think you and I, and probably all your listeners, know when you're facing an impossible situation, whether it's in these biblical stories or our own lives, when God overcomes something that seems by human standards impossible, we can't take the credit. And it just ends up glorifying him, and that thread is in all these stories too.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. Well, it's because it's God who works in us, you know, both to will and to work for his good pleasure, for his glory. So I love that.

And so here's just a rando question. Did you write this book for you or someone else? Because sometimes I write the books I wish I could read because of what I'm dealing with. So I'm curious how your life impacted your desire to write this book about overcoming.

Shannon Bream: That's a great question. And I had always wanted to write this book. Because I see this collection of these overcomers and I do feel like I have a bit of that where the Lord has shown up and overcome my circumstances in it.

So I definitely love these stories and wanted to spend some more time with them. But I am always thinking ultimately about who's going to read it and whether it will encourage them, and that's -- I'm always thinking I want to encourage, but I want to equip as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Shannon Bream: So there are principles to pull from these stories. I want you to read them and be like, okay, God's working, he's aware, everything's going to be okay. But also, what did these people do? You know, in each story there are different things you can pick up. They were still, they watched for God's salvation, they waited for how he was going to work. They trusted him.

And so, yeah, I think everything that we write, probably we've got our own little bit of interest in it. And I've always selfishly really loved these stories and wanted to put them together in a collection, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Bream: But yeah. And to put them out into the world, I hope it will be a blessing to people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, what blesses us, blesses each other, you know. So I just love that.

Now, here's another left field -- we're about to wind up, but I got to ask you this left field question.

Okay. So I, when I met you, I told you Phil and I, before we go to church, on Sunday mornings we watch Shannon Bream, Fox News Sunday. And I think you are brilliant and do such a stellar job moderating and stewarding these conversations with all these thought experts and political people. And I am also mindful, in our culture there is a lot of -- political fervor is a nice way for me to put it. And so to me, it feels impossible, Shannon.

So here you are, a woman of faith, and you show up every Sunday and you keep your cool and you show such discretion and kindness. So talk to us, just your body of believers, your family of God, your brothers and sisters, how do we deal with the impossible of our differences, the alleged impossibility of our differences, when it comes to politics and culture?

Shannon Bream: Yeah. And it's such a great question, because I think we all feel the tension of that if you're plugged in at all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shannon Bream: And listen, I have a lot of friends who will say -- and even my husband at times -- like, "I'm just checked out. I cannot take the news right now, so you just tell me if I need to know anything really important because I just can't take it." And I'll say to people, "I get it, I 100% get it."

So, I mean, I try to do a couple of things. I think my morning mental reset, my faith investment, you know, resetting to that eternal perspective. I think, okay, the Lord has called us to love each other. We are all created in his image. Even the person you think, "I would never agree with them, they're a horrible person," someone maybe looks at you that way too. So we all have to remember that we are creating in God's image.

And Dr. Robbie George, this amazing Princeton professor, strong believer, I always think about what he says too. That you've got to go into these conversations, and we have to have, you know, conversations with people that we love, that we are in different places, with the open mind that maybe you can learn something. Maybe you're wrong about something. Or even just understanding someone else's perspective, you don't compromise your own core principles and your beliefs, but at least you hear people out so you understand where their fear is coming from, where their anger is coming from. And I think if you understand each other better, you can work towards some kind of common ground.

And listen, I don't think, as I said, you should compromise your core beliefs on anything, but we should be able to have a conversation. Even if you walk away, like, okay, we're going to agree to disagree, but I hope that you felt I respected you in that conversation. Because eternally what we're called is to build God's kingdom, not ours. Not our political kingdoms, not our favorite candidate's kingdom, not our favorite issues kingdom. It's about bringing people to Christ.

And if we have such division that we look at people in a way that they're the other, quote/unquote, how are we ministering to them or bringing them to Christ, you know? And it's not easy.

And I write about in the book this is Jonah's story. Because we know that he doesn't want to go to Nineveh when God tells him to go. And part of that's because the Assyrians were horribly brutal people. I mean, I write in the book that I was hesitant to even include the things that they did to their enemies because they're so grotesque. But I always thought as a kid, well, that's why Jonah didn't go, he was afraid.

But if you really dig into Jonah's story, part of the reason he didn't go is he didn't want the Ninevites to have the same grace from God that he did. He didn't think they were redeemable or should be forgiven in a lot of ways. If you read his story, it seems that he's actually upset when they come to God and he redeems them.

So are we looking around at other people and thinking, oh, yes, I deserve God's grace, but not that group. They're so awful and terrible, they don't need Jesus. They don't deserve Jesus. Are we having our Jonah moment or are we looking and saying God's called me to go to everyone, and that means I'm going to have to not be about winning sometimes, I'm going to have to be about building God's kingdom, and that can look very different than winning a political argument.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whew. Okay, preach. Amen. Thank you for that. And it shows in the way that you steward your calling on the morning news. I appreciate it so much, Shannon. I love that about you. I appreciate that. That is the grace of God and the maturity of Christ. So thank you, Lord, and may we all learn.

Okay, Shannon, I'm recommending your book highly, just because I recommend you. I was telling your PR person, Sophie, before we got online, I said, "Listen, I just love to talk to Shannon. We could discuss her grocery list and I'd be edified."

Shannon Bream: We have a good time.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I can guarantee we are going to love this book.

So let's get to our last question, though, Shannon. All right. There is someone listening and, oh, they feel so stuck. Like, they feel stuck in an impossible situation. It might be physically, it might be emotionally, it might be relationally or spiritually. Okay? What can you say to them, from your own journey and Scripture, to just help them with their impossible?

Shannon Bream: I think sometimes when I've been in my stuck place or my doubts or questions about the Lord, I've just said, "Lord, please just meet me where I am." We don't have to have it all figured out. We don't have to be spiritually perfect. We can't be. Our life doesn't have to be organized. Sometimes I just say, "Lord, you know where I'm at. Please just come meet me in this place with this doubt, with this question, with this frustration."

And like I said earlier, he can take it. I mean, he can handle human questioning and prodding and frustration. I think he just wants us to at least be willing to come to him.

And so, you know, this book is written for people who may have some understanding of the Bible. For sure you'll have some familiarity with these stories. But even if you are not a person of faith, I think that if you come with an open mind and heart, you'll be encouraged and see how God is working. And if you are a person of faith and you feel stuck somewhere, you'll see yourself in these stories as well, I mean, that God was always weaving things together.

Think about Joseph. He's one of my favorite stories. I mean, sold into slavery by his own brothers, thrown in jail for something he didn't do. I mean, years of his youth were just taken from him in these oppressive situations, that he'd done nothing to bring on himself. But we never see him say, That's it. I give up, God. You've allowed me to land in these horrible places that I don't deserve.

Instead, when it all comes full circle and he's been lifted from prison, he's been elevated to the number two ruler of Egypt, and his brothers who sold him into slavery show up and need his help, don't even realize it's him, but in this terrible famine he's able to provide food that preserved Jacob's family, which is the genesis of Israel. He was perfectly placed. So he had to suffer all of those things, and he could not have known in all those intervening years that this is what it was about.

But he has that famous verse in Genesis that people often quote, "What you meant for evil, God meant for good." And it's not that you did something evil, God then scrambled in there unexpectedly and turned it around. No. What you were doing, God knew about it. He meant it for good. And so I take great hope in Joseph's story that God is always aware and working wherever you feel stuck.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my people, Shannon is right. You do not have to figure it all out. Just ask God, "Meet me here." And that's what he does. He will meet you right there. I'm telling you -- you already figured this out, didn't you? She is the real thing. And I just love how she loves the Word.

I'm so thankful that we have a sister out there on mainstream media who really does carry the light of Christ into every single thing she does. So family, we got to pray for her. We need to be the family who prays for our sister. Pray God will protect her and that he will give her grace every day.

All right. And you know what else you need to do? You need to get her book and you need to get encouraged. So we're going to, of course, have a link to Shannon's book on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/393. And the transcript is there too. So I'm going to make sure that you guys know right where to find that, because there was so much that was so good.

All right. So, KC, I know you're listening, probably blowing your nose and taking some Sudafed, but I know you're listening. We miss you, KC. We can't wait for you to be back with us.

All right, family, this one is a wrap. So remember, you can trust the truth that nothing is impossible with God, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can. And that means you can too.

4:13 Podcast: Jennifer's Sons Interview Her - Part 2 [Episode 392]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends, Jennifer here. If you enjoy the 4:13 Podcast, you are going to love my new Hope of Heaven Tour. Kelly Minter will be with me, Point of Grace will be with me. It's one night, learning, laughing. We're going to bring the Hope of Heaven to earth today. I want you to come, so get your besties, get your tickets. Hopeofheaventour.com. And you might be interested in bringing it to your church or your city. Go to hopeofheaventour.com. All right, let's get to the podcast.

Well, hey, 4:13ers. For the last five years on The 4:13, and for the last 18 years at Fresh Grounded Faith Conferences, you have heard me Spill the Beans and interview guests. But today we're going to do something that we've not done before, and that is this. My two sons, Clayton and Connor, sat down with me for a conversation about the story behind the ministry and the heart behind the microphone. Well, in this two-part mini-series, you are going to hear a spontaneous, curious, revealing conversation about ministry, blindness, writing, speaking, and legacy. So last week you got to hear part one. So now settle in, here's part two.

All right, my friends, I'm glad you're back for the rest of this conversation. I saved you a seat with me and my boys sitting around the table. Now we're going to pick back up where they asked about C.S. Lewis, and then I got into growing up and not being a reader and my first exposure to audiobooks. Okay. We also talked about how depression led me to C.S. Lewis. There's a lot here, so settle in. Here we go.

Clayton Rothschild: You mentioned C.S. Lewis earlier. And I am curious to hear more about C.S. Lewis and who he is to you and what he means and where he came into your life, like, when and what stage of life were you in when you discovered C.S. Lewis, and why is he important to you today?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I had never read C.S. Lewis as an adult. I'd heard about him, I hadn't read him as a child, none of it. Because here's the bottom line. When I was a girl, I was not a big reader. I just wasn't. I was busy with other things and creativity. Okay, so that's one thing.

I was involved in school. I got good grades. I was naturally smart, and didn't know it, and had no interest in it because it was easy and it just wasn't that big of a deal. I enjoyed music and art. Okay, so that's that segment that will lead to this.

When -- Clayton, when you were born, I somehow got involved with the Division of Blind Services of the State of Florida. And in their intake interview, they asked me what kind of books I read, and I said I couldn't read -- because I couldn't read Braille. This was back in the day. I did not have access to audiobooks. And they set me up with the Talking Books Library.

And back in the day, it was chunky. Like, I'm holding my hands showing almost like this -- you know, a foot by a foot. I mean, it was a giant tape player with these giant buttons like a toddler would use. And they would send these tapes to me of different books. Well, because when I was interviewed and, "What kind of books do you like?" I said, "I have no idea. Just send me everything."

And so the very first book I listened to -- it was not C.S. Lewis, but it's going to lead to this. The very first book I listened to -- and if somebody is literary, they will go, "Are you kidding me?" It's like your first cup of coffee being Starbucks. Okay? It was hefty. It was Henry James' "Portrait Of A Lady." Henry James was a writer in the late 1800s. This is a long book and very sophisticated. Okay.

Well, something happened. I came alive when I listened to it. I learned that I probably had dealt with more mental boredom in my life than I realized. I came alive. So that began me on this book of reading. And because I cut my teeth on classic literature and dead authors, I was just hooked.

All right. Fast forward now to I'm in my 40s, and I went through a season of depression that was extremely dismantling. And because -- I would read Scripture -- because at this point I did have audio Bible, et cetera. It just wasn't there, and I was beginning to fall deeply into this season of doubt. And I knew C.S. Lewis' stories, I had read some of him at that point. And I liked him, but I didn't really get it.

And I really believe that God led me to C.S. Lewis. Because I literally thought, he used to be an atheist; then he became a theist, meaning that God did exist; but then he had this conversion experience with Christ which was so genuine and so un-walk down the aisle at a Baptist Church. Like, everything about his life, because -- just really, I got very curious. God used him as an authoritative guide in my life to bring me back. When I read his stuff, it also came alive and something came alive in me. And he was used by God to bring me back to a very -- not just an intellectually sound faith, but an emotionally comfortable faith, comfortable with the mystery of faith.

The whole thing was a total package for me. I kind of found someone in my life that I was like, oh, my gosh, I get you. Like, if you knew me, you would get me. Now, he's a million times smarter, but, like, I got him. Like, I felt like we had walked down the same path and we could walk together. And so at that point is when I started reading absolutely everything he wrote.

Clayton Rothschild: Have you read everything he's wrote?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Not a lot of his academic stuff, because it is just too academic. And I appreciate his medieval stuff and -- because he was a medieval scholar. I appreciate it, but I haven't read all of it.

Clayton Rothschild: It's not the same path that you're walking now --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Clayton Rothschild: -- and you're not --

Jennifer Rothschild: But I've read everything that inspired him. Like, he liked Norse mythology. I've read Norse mythology. He liked George MacDonald. I've read all George MacDonald. You know what I'm saying? I dived deep --

Clayton Rothschild: Interesting.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and it has made a difference in my life.

Connor Rothschild: That's awesome.

Clayton Rothschild: C.S. Lewis is intellectual without being cold, and he's emotionally attached without being, you know --

Jennifer Rothschild: Academic and aloof.

Clayton Rothschild: Yeah, without -- yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: And that's really interesting. What was, other than his fiction, your first exposure, I guess, that made you have that aha moment? Was it "Mere Christianity" --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Clayton Rothschild: -- or was it a different title?

Jennifer Rothschild: It was "Surprised by Joy." "Surprised by Joy" is his spiritual memoir, and he basically talked through his childhood up to just how he found Christ. But he was super honest about all the things he experienced and how he grappled.

But one of the things that first caught me in the first chapter, he talked about being a votary of the blue flower. And when I got to the Heaven study -- fast forward in my life -- I remembered that phrase. And I began to research it and realized, you know, that he always had this ache for eternity, this ache for transcendence. Blue flower in romantic German literature represents longing, beauty, that which is greatly other.

And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's it. You know, I've always had the seeds of the blue flower in my own spirit and didn't know that's what it was. And then, of course, I associated that with Heaven. So, yeah, there's just been myriad -- myriad things about C.S. Lewis. And then, of course, as I read his Narnia, my deep appreciation for his unbelievable skill, unbelievable skill to communicate huge truths in small ways.

But one of the things that has inspired me, because I've studied him as a human, as a person, as a writer, as a believer, you know, and getting to go to Oxford, he genuinely loved people. He cared about them. He was willing to even sacrifice his reputation. Like, Narnia, he was a college -- an Oxford Don, and he's writing children's books. And he was highly disrespected among academic circles for doing that. But he was ready to take the reputational hit because he cared so much about the message, and he had found the truth and wanted to express the truth.

You know, he was paying for children's colleges, he was -- every letter he received from a reader, he took the time to write back. As a man, he influenced me because I knew he was 100% committed to what God had called him to be. Not just to do, but to call him to be, and that has influenced me.

Clayton Rothschild: So as you consider your career up to at this point, and the audience you have, the type of books you've written, do you see the next phase of your career taking on more of a philosophical, theologic -- more C.S. Lewis-like --

Connor Rothschild: Or do you wish?

Clayton Rothschild: -- or do you tend to stay accessible?

Connor Rothschild: Yeah. Like, if not you plan on it, is there a part of you that longs for that, like, you kind of wonder if you can flex those muscles?

Clayton Rothschild: Just to go nerd out?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love to nerd out. Well, here's what I've learned. No. I believe it is still my calling to make accessible God's Word, you know, and the truth. And God's truth is embedded in everything. It's embedded in literature, it's embedded in philosophy, it's embedded in nature. So it is my -- I know that is my calling, to continue to make God's Word accessible to women. And because of the way I'm wired, I always want to show how it's all connected. Okay? So that's one thing I know I will continue to do.

And I'm willing to sacrifice the being known as, oh, wow, she's so smart -- because there's so many who are out there who are smarter. But I'm willing to sacrifice -- I don't have that -- whereas one day -- okay. I don't have the need to prove like maybe ten years ago I did. Like, I want them to know I really know this stuff. Well, who cares what I know? It's about what I'm making known. And I've learned that, and I'm -- there's much more freedom in caring less about what gratifies me and my reputation when I know I can fulfill a calling that I'm known to -- okay, so that's one thing.

Secondly, would I still want to write like that on C.S. Lewis? Yes. But you know what? I get just as gratified going and learning and then writing out all my notes and writing my thoughts about it. I don't have to publish it is my point. I really don't. I don't care about that.

Connor Rothschild: And do you make a hobby out of that? Like, how do you --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes. Every --

Connor Rothschild: Do you just kind of write as kind of a thought process?

Jennifer Rothschild: I do. Everything I read, I write about, just for my own -- because then I learn what I know.

Connor Rothschild: I'd like to read the archives of that. That'd be cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: The other thing I think I will do someday is write my memoir. Which is very different from an autobiography. And so I've already got some files going that I'm playing with and trying to figure out. But I think I will do that. That will be very gratifying.

Connor Rothschild: And you described that the first book that you encountered from C.S. Lewis -- what was the name of it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: Well, it was his memoir, right?

Connor Rothschild: But you described it as a spiritual memoir?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: Does that differ in that it has a little more infusion of kind of like spiritual principles, or what is -- how would you describe the difference?

Jennifer Rothschild: He calls it a spiritual memoir. Or his early life, a memoir of his early life, something like that. But it is spiritual in that everything is spiritual. You know, that his first longing when he sees a little garden in a tin can lid, he has this longing for eternity. That's spiritual, though he has no idea what that means when he's eight years old or six years old.

So, yeah, when I write a memoir, I am trying to discover -- because you always want one angle, you know. And I don't what my angle would be yet. But the difference in a memoir and an autobiography is an autobiography, I'm just sitting down from -- I was born here, I'm dying here, and this is everything in between. That's the biography.

A memoir, you get to pick out parts of your life that, for whatever reason, are significant to you that are communicating a message to a reader. You never tell them what the message is, you communicate it through the choices of what you include in your story. And I'm looking forward to that challenge. I think that will be a fun, interesting thing to write.

---

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, I bet by now that you know that I graduated from Palm Beach Atlantic University with a psychology degree and a husband. Okay. Now, if you check out my alma mater, I cannot guarantee that you will get a husband or a wife out of the deal, but I can guarantee that you will gain a quality education that is academically challenging. And you're going to get a great campus experience where you will grow and find a community to do life with. And that world-class education you're going to get is going to prepare you for life.

Anyway, Palm Beach Atlantic, you know where it is by now. It is located in dreamy West Palm Beach, Florida, right over the Intracoastal Waterway. It will equip you to grow in wisdom, lead with conviction, and serve God boldly. So you have got to check this out for you and your student. Go to 413podcast.com/PBA.

And speaking of great, let's get back to the conversation.

---

Clayton Rothschild: So as you look back on your life and, like, a memoir, you know, potentially that you'd write someday, do you identify yourself through your blindness significantly, that that would be a common theme, or do you think that there are aspects and elements of your life that transcend blindness that you want to talk about?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good question. Yeah, because you can't separate blindness.

So one thing I've already written -- and I couldn't figure out why I was so attracted to this. But I think it might communicate what the real plot and subplot is. When I was a little girl, Dad's mom and dad, Mama and Papa, lived in Clearwater, Florida. And they lived kind of on a lake and they had this stone bench under a -- it was called a Kapok tree, I think. It had these big hard shells. I don't remember what it was called. But anyway, she had a box of books in her garage. And, of course, I could see then.

So I pulled out this Hans Christian Andersen fairytale book. It was really thick. And I remember as a girl, I read this story called "One Blind Daughter." This was far before I ever knew I would be blind. And the basic premise of the story was -- she's the blind daughter, but somehow she has to go on this grand journey and she has to somehow bring something back -- I don't remember all the details -- to save her father. And it was this whole concept of -- she does it. And, like, she's the only one who can almost, you know.

Okay. When I was writing about that and how I recalled it, I thought, I think that's more the plot of my life, that there's been this overt higher calling, deeper purpose, stronger drive, and yet there's this subplot of blindness that you would think would disrupt it and be the detour, when really it's become the path. And it's the thing that has always been the challenge, the drive, the ally, the issue, the interruption, but it's always been the thing that's made the higher path possible of whatever that is that my calling and attainment is. And so I think that's where -- that's, I think, what I will communicate. I'm kind of glad you asked me --

Clayton Rothschild: That's super profound.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because that gave me a chance to answer it --

Connor Rothschild: That's cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to see what I thought.

Clayton Rothschild: Yeah. That's very profound. And not necessarily what I would expect, because -- well, I don't think of you as, oh, my blind mother. But it is a big part of your life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: But I actually would kind of expect the answer that you gave, which is, hey, this is a big part of my life, it's a tool towards this greater, actually, story of my life. It's not the main story. It informs the story, though. That's what I heard you say at least. I don't know if that's accurate.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think that's accurate.

Connor Rothschild: Yeah, that's cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I think it's accurate.

Connor Rothschild: I'm curious just a little more on the topic of writing. I think we've all known that C.S. Lewis has been your go-to.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: He's number one on the intellectual podium, on the kind of inspiration and --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: I'm curious if you were to put a second and third place up there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

Connor Rothschild: Is it easy? Does it come to mind immediately? Do you have to labor a little more to think about, like, authors that have been very influential for you in that second and third position? Or maybe just second position, if you have any thoughts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, one of the things that I have done is -- I don't read very often living authors, because I'm terrified of plagiarizing. Okay? So I don't read within my genre, my friends. Now, I will read parts of their books. Or if they ask me to endorse, of course I'll read that. You know what I'm saying. But otherwise, I don't read a lot of it.

Now, I will read a lot of Christian living books and I will read a lot of fiction. And there are some fiction authors that I marvel at their ability to tell a story. I marvel at their ability to write sentences. I like Hemingway's -- dead author -- I like Hemingway's short sentences. I think F. Scott Fitzgerald's sentences are unbelievable.

There is a biographer, who lives today, named Ellen Vaugn, who is an exceptional storyteller, and she does this beautiful job of giving information and facts and making you feel like you can see it with your eyes. So she influences me. And I like to study -- those are the kind of writers I like to study and see how they do it.

Connor Rothschild: Interesting. Speaking a little on fiction and autobiography, because those -- I mean, really you could kind of split this into three genres, I feel like. There's nonfiction, there's fiction, and then there's the art of autobiography or biography.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Connor Rothschild: That's kind of a whole different genre, I feel like.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whole different.

Connor Rothschild: Technically it's nonfiction, of course. What are the transferrable skills -- like, you admire those authors, you speak about you're impressed by their short sentences. Do you think that they improve you as a writer in a very material way? Like, are your short sentences better as a result or -- how much is kind of lost in translation between a fiction book, and how that is written, and a nonfiction book?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah. And how do you know what you're just observing and what you're going to eventually absorb, right? It's hard to know. Because that's, I think, the insidious effect of influence. You kind of can't tell sometimes when you grabbed it. Which is why I say I'm careful about reading living authors who are in my genre, because I'm afraid I'll grab it and think it's my idea.

I do think that I -- I never read first to study it. And I do think anyone who's a writer has to be a reader. When I have met women who say, "I want to write a book," and I ask, "Well, what kind of books do you read?" "Well, I don't really like to read." And I think, well, you'll never be a writer. You'll never be a writer. Because if you don't have the discipline or interest to read, you will not have the discipline and ability to write.

Connor Rothschild: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so that's two things.

But I know for me -- like, I will read Anne Lamott. She is one of the best living writers out there. And the reason I enjoy reading her is some books are like music. Just like you enjoy a song the first time, you love it more the second time. The third time you might notice what key it's in, the fourth time you might notice, oh, wow, I love how the strings come in on the third verse. That's how I read Anne Lamott. And so I will read her stuff over and over and over because I will study it.

And I will see why did I feel that emotion on this sentence? And then I'll look back to see what she did. Did she tell me how to feel? Did she draw a word picture? Did she -- was it humor? So I can't give you a lot of one-to-one transferables because I'm not sure if I have figured that out. I could, you know, show you -- I will write down some things that I think, oh, that was a good sentence, and here's why.

Sometimes I will write down quotes from books, that I don't even know why I like them. And then I'll go back and study them and think why does that -- what about that quote hits me? Why does that matter? Why is that significant to me? Why do I remember?

Now, I will say one other thing with writing. I do carefully write sticky statements into my books.

In other words, I may have told a story, I may have made the point, but then I will literally summarize it into what you could tweet and you could remember that's sticky. Like, "It may not be well with your circumstances, but it can be well with your soul." Boom, sticky statement. They'll remember that. They'll remember how they felt about the story and they'll see that picture in their mind. They'll kind of remember the truth that I just told them, and they'll often remember the statement.

Connor Rothschild: That's very cool.

I'm curious, because you don't read as many living authors -- and I bet a lot of living authors do read all of their peers --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: -- it probably is this kind of, like, language that is adopted and -- a lot of similarities. Not to say they're --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, there may be, uh-huh.

Connor Rothschild: -- plagiarizing. But have you ever heard, like, "Your books are very different," or, "Your writing is different"? Like, is there any indication of that based on that? Because it is kind of interesting to, like, mostly read people from 100-plus years ago or something.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: Maybe it's not 100. Fifty years ago, and use that as kind of most of the inspiration for how you write today. I wonder if other people have a different writing style or if that's -- if you ever heard anything like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I haven't. But I will say this. People can read something of mine and say, "I knew that was your writing."

But I will tell you one of the detriments of reading a lot of dead authors and living in the 2000s and trying to communicate to women. Early on my writing was too stiff. I've gone back and read --

Connor Rothschild: Yeah, what's an example?

Jennifer Rothschild: -- "God Is Just Not Fair," and I'm like, Jennifer, chill out. So that was also partly because I was trying to prove myself. I'll be very honest. I think I didn't have the intellectual humility at that point to realize you don't have to be smart. You need to communicate a message. It's not about what you know, it's about what they need to know. And so some of my word choice was so stiff, and I don't appreciate that. So if I could ever rewrite that, same content, same stories. It's still warm. It's not that it's not warm.

But I'm like -- I also am a big believer, if there's a word that has three syllables, and you can use one, you use one syllable. Whereas back in that day, oh, no. If I could prove I knew a three-syllable word, I was going to use the three-syllable word. And that wasn't necessary.

Now, I'm not saying you should never use three-syllable words. I'm not saying that. But your motive cannot be, "Let me show you what I know." Your motive has to be, "Here's what I want you to know." And you need to speak the language of the person who's reading the book.

Clayton Rothschild: What do you think your audience needs to be hearing now? Are you mindful of current moderns from a cultural perspective or from your audience? You know, what are they hungry for? What are you looking to write about in the next decade, if you've identified that yet?

Jennifer Rothschild: I think for me it is biblical literacy combined with biblical love. Because I think there is a deficit of biblical literacy in that we know about the Bible, we know what the Bible says, we know what the pastor says about the Bible, but to equip women to be able to read the Bible themselves, know how to study it themselves and -- so to have the literacy, because that will change their life.

But then not just to stop there so we all lead these legalistic perfect lives, but skip that part and go from literacy to love. Because when you really -- when I can help women love the Bible, then their literacy will grow. The more their literacy grows, the more their love grows. And it's this virtuous cycle that then they can pass down through generations. And so, you know, that would be my preferred legacy.

Clayton Rothschild: Cool.

Connor Rothschild: Very cool.

Clayton Rothschild: Excellent. Well, thank you.

Connor Rothschild: Those are my questions. How do you normally end the 4:13 Podcast? We can do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: With the hokiest way you've ever ended it.

Connor Rothschild: Yeah. Do we need to --

Jennifer Rothschild: I say remember, no matter what you face --

Connor Rothschild: No matter what you face.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- no matter how you feel --

Connor Rothschild: No matter how you feel.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- you can do all things --

Connor Rothschild: You can do all things.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- through Christ who strengthens you.

Connor Rothschild: Through Christ who strengthens you.

Clayton Rothschild: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Clayton Rothschild: I can.

Connor Rothschild: And you can.

Clayton Rothschild: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can. Right? It's so goofy.

Clayton Rothschild: No. That's good. That's great.

Connor Rothschild: That's cool. All right. Well, we can consider that wrapped. Well, thanks for doing that, Mom. That was really special.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you.

Connor Rothschild: That was cool. That was fun.

Jennifer Rothschild: I appreciate it, because I never know what I think until I talk. So that's helpful.

Connor Rothschild: Sure enough.

Clayton Rothschild: Thanks.

Connor Rothschild: Signing off.

Jennifer Rothschild: They thanked me? I mean, I'm the one who is so thankful to God for these men. I learned so much my whole life for being their mother. I've learned so much from them, and I'm so thankful. I'm a grateful mom. Anyway, like I said, now I know what I think.

So again today we talked about a lot of things and a lot of people who have made an impact on me. So I'm going to have links to everything and everyone that you might be curious about on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/392.

So I'm not going to end this thing by repeating our beloved and kind of, let's be honest, goofy ending that my sons were good sports to already recite. So until next week -- you know the drill -- through Christ, whatever it is, oh, my friends, just do it. Okay, we'll see you next week. KC will be back with me on The 4:13. Have a great week!

4:13 Podcast: Jennifer's Sons Interview Her - Part 1 [Episode 391]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends, Jennifer here. If you enjoy the 4:13 Podcast, you are going to love my new Hope of Heaven Tour. Kelly Minter will be with me, Point of Grace will be with me. It's one night learning, laughing. We're going to bring the Hope of Heaven to earth today. I want you to come, so get your besties, get your tickets. hopeofheaventour.com. And you might be interested in bringing it to your church or your city. Go to hopeofheaventour.com. All right, let's get to the podcast.

Well, hey, friends. For the last five years on The 4:13 and for the last 18 years at Fresh Grounded Faith Conferences, you have heard me Spill the Beans and interview guests. But today we are doing something that we have never done before. My two sons, Clayton and Connor, sat down with me for a conversation about the story behind the ministry and the heart behind the microphone. So in this two-part mini-series, you are going to hear a spontaneous, curious, revealing conversation about ministry, blindness, writing, speaking, and legacy. So here we go with part one.

It was a Sunday afternoon and I had just finished my last Fresh Grounded Faith Conference -- and Kirk Cameron happened to be there, and comedian Anita Renfroe -- and Connor asked if he and Clayton could just unpack my life and ministry. Like, I was so surprised. In other words, they wanted to interview their mother. So here we sat around the table, I was kind of tired -- you'll probably be able to hear it in my voice -- and we just looked back to the origin of ministry and we talked about all the moving parts of my life. So I shared my funniest moments and what I've learned about reading the audience when I'm speaking, especially without being able to see them at all.

So I just thought it would be fun if you guys could come along. So I'm inviting you in with me and my boys. We've saved you a seat so you can sit around the table with us. So the first voice that you're going to hear is our youngest son, Connor, and then you will hear Clayton join in. So here we go.

Connor Rothschild: All right. I started recording. This is the 3:14, the 4:13 reverse podcast. We just finished Jennifer Rothschild's final Fresh Grounded Faith, which is very exciting. Got the whole family there for the final shebang celebrating 18 years of Fresh Grounded Faith. And I don't know how many conferences it's been in total. Was it --

Jennifer Rothschild: It was 164.

Connor Rothschild: 164.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm. Over 18 years.

Connor Rothschild: And we have a lot of stats --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: -- like how many women were saved.

Jennifer Rothschild: 150,000 attended. Over 1,000 were saved, came to Christ. Over 4,000 are now in Bible studies. And my favorite number, 7,600 children released from poverty in Jesus' name with Compassion because of Fresh Grounded.

Connor Rothschild: Just remarkable.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: That's awesome.

And obviously I'm here. Clayton's also here. And I think we've kind of grown up with it, but something I was remarking on yesterday at our dinner together was, like, we've seen it change and, like, we've been behind the scenes, and so it's just really cool to kind of see the culmination of it all after 18 years.

So I'll start out with a soft ball about those conferences, about FGF. Any funny stories? A funny thing. You got 18 years, you got 100 and something conferences. What's, like, a funny story?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: If you can think off the top of your head, a funny story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I've got one immediately, because it was one of the most funny and stressful all at once.

So Michael O'Brien, our worship leader, was new with us. And maybe he had done two or three conferences, but, you know, he still knew the drill. But for whatever reason, this particular Saturday morning I'm presenting that morning teaching, and he's supposed to follow me immediately because we're going to do this invitation to the women to come to the front and pray, and he's supposed to play behind it and sing.

And so I'm kind of landing the plane in my message, I'm saying my final lines and I'm not hearing him on the keyboard. And so I'm still kind of lingering, like, making -- give him some time. I'm still not hearing him on the keyboard. Finally I start walking back toward the keyboard and I realize he is not here. So I literally -- and it wasn't a keyboard at that time, it was a grand piano.

So I sit down at the grand and I'm starting to play, to do his job while I'm inviting the women to come pray. And then I start singing -- I don't even remember what I start singing -- and then all of a sudden I hear this panting voice behind me. And he taps me on the shoulder, "I'm here, I'm here, I'm here."

So then I have to ease out. He sees what key I'm in. I ease out on one side of the bench, he eases in, he starts playing in the same key and leading, and I go back up to the front and start -- and I was like, "You are so fired."

Connor Rothschild: What's the story? Where was he? Did he just -- was the timing just off?

Jennifer Rothschild: He went out -- he got a phone call and he lost track of time. And he was out in the lobby. And so at that point, our conference director was Theresa Wiggins.

Connor Rothschild: She's probably chasing him down or something.

Jennifer Rothschild: She ran up, she's like, "Get in there." He has never stopped apologizing for that. It was the funniest thing, though.

Connor Rothschild: And so there was an audience and, like -- so you started playing, then you segued into letting him play. Is that what you're saying?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Like, I moved off one side of the bench and he moved onto the other.

Connor Rothschild: And did it seem like to the audience that there was, like -- like, that was intentional, or do you think they kind of could tell, like, something's probably up, but you guys played it off okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: I think they could tell something was up. Because probably he ran in panic-stricken, because I could hear him breathing behind me like he was running to get on stage.

Connor Rothschild: That's funny. You imagine that versus, like, if you were Anita Renfroe. And if you were Anita Renfroe, you would have just been like, "Where's Michael?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly.

Connor Rothschild: "I need to summon Michael up to the stage."

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I would have liked to have done, except I was in such as contemplative spiritual --

Connor Rothschild: Oh, yeah. It's like the end of your phase where you're kind of like really fading in. I know the music in the background. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Like, it would have been very disruptive if I had --

Connor Rothschild: Oh, interesting.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah, that was one of my funniest moments.

And then we've also had funny ones where -- you know, one time I was doing some kind of gesture like I was throwing something and all my bracelets fell off and scattered across the stage, you know. There's times when my mic pack got loose and fell between my legs on the floor.

But, yeah, the best one is definitely when Michael didn't show up for the invitation.

Clayton Rothschild: Your message and theme for the conferences has changed over the years, as well as your season of life that you've been in while you're doing the conferences. I'm curious if there's a particular season of Fresh Grounded Faith that you look back on with a lot of purpose or fondness.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's interesting. Well, when I first started Fresh Grounded, I didn't recognize I needed to theme them. And as it began to grow and -- I realized, you know, okay, this thing's going to be a thing.

And we were -- especially coming back to, like, Springfield, Missouri, every year, I realized I had to theme it. So I think it was probably three or four years into it that I finally started theming it. Because I was looking at my records the other day. I probably have 14 different themes I've done. So that makes sense. Which is a lot of themes.

My favorite, though, is probably Grace. I don't know when I started that. Maybe around 2021. But the Grace, Grace, Grace theme has been my very favorite because I've seen how it's transferable to where everybody is because it's helping us have grace for each other, receiving grace from God, living in the grace of God, and I think we just -- that's something we need desperately. So, yeah, that's been one of my favorite themes.

Clayton Rothschild: You haven't turned that into a book, though?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. I should, shouldn't I? I should.

And I also thought this weekend, the Devoted theme for this last one, I thought -- as I kind of began to teach it through, I thought this could be a really good book too. Yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So we'll see.

Okay. But that's interesting you asked that question, because Grace is not a book, Devoted is not a book. But some of the themes I've done have been based on books. So it kind of goes both ways.

Clayton Rothschild: And what was your ministry like pre FGF? Because I know that you started out as a singer-songwriter --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: -- going to churches. And I imagine you began to speak more as a larger segment of your presentations. But then it turned into FGF.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Clayton Rothschild: So what was it like before FGF?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, before Fresh Grounded, you're right, I just went and sang places. And women's conferences were just starting to become a thing, but there weren't a lot of female worship leaders. And so I began to just lead worship from a keyboard at some of these women's events.

And I was at one in South Florida, and there was this little-known Bible teacher from Houston, Texas, who had not published a book or a Bible study yet, named Beth Moore. She was the speaker; I was the worship leader.

And from that event, Dad got a phone call -- we got a phone call, but Dad, you know, received the phone call asking if I would come speak at another women's event in South Florida. Because this lady had invited Beth Moore, and Beth wasn't available, so she wanted to know if I could come, and did I speak? And Dad says to the lady, "Oh, yes, she does," which I never had.

Connor Rothschild: And you had to?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: Yeah, you were locked in.

Jennifer Rothschild: And the lady said, "Well, what would her theme be?" And Dad knew that the song I sang the most was "It is Well with My Soul," and he said, "Her theme will be 'It is Well with My Soul.'" And I remember when he told me, I was panicking. But I went and did this event. I mean, I asked the Lord to give me content. And, you know, I couldn't type, I couldn't write. I couldn't see what I was doing, it was all just happening in my head.

Anyway, I remember when I gave that first presentation. It was like suddenly I became a spectator and I began to watch myself do something I didn't know I was capable of, and realized that God had gifted me with communication. So music, songwriting, was communication. A different form of it was speaking.

So if you fast forward, then word got out and I was invited to speak at different things. And so we would travel the country, speak at these different events. And Dad began to notice two things. One, my invitations were growing. And I did not have the capacity to fulfill them all. I did not like to say no. A lot of them were little churches. So we had to make hard decisions. I hate this, but it's the truth. When you only have so much time and you have children at home, we couldn't say yes to everything, so we had to say yes to larger things. And I didn't like leaving the little churches out.

And so Dad also began to see how every church did things differently, and perhaps there was a way to do it uniformly so it was more efficient for the body of Christ and for us, thus Fresh Ground Faith was born. So it was really Dad's brainchild.

Clayton Rothschild: Interesting.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: That's a really interesting model, because what it does is it takes local small congregations, empowers them, unites them under a common conference, and allows them to, you know, partake in what would otherwise be maybe not possible for them to --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. It empowers the locals, which I love, because I love the church. And we don't want to say no to the little churches, and this gave us a chance to say yes to every church. And obviously God blessed it and grew it.

Clayton Rothschild: Yeah. Because the model is you have a host church and then you have -- what do you call -- are they all host churches?

Jennifer Rothschild: They're co-host.

Clayton Rothschild: Co-host churches.

Jennifer Rothschild: We have one host church, which is the large venue, and then we have as many as -- you know, sometimes up to 25, 26 co-host churches. And they all bring their women and get out the word, and then it's this uniting event for a community.

Clayton Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: That's cool.

Clayton Rothschild: That's really cool.

Connor Rothschild: It's cool to hear, like, the origin story of it all.

I'm curious, like -- so yesterday, for example, we sat through the final one. There was another guest speaker, there was music, and there was kind of a presentation from Sean with Compassion.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Connor Rothschild: I'm curious -- and you've already talked a little bit how, like, your message in particular has changed over those 18 years, like, now you have a theme and you kind of, like, organize and do themes. What else palpably was different about last night versus some of the early years of FGF? Was there something that was there that you decided halfway through to nix totally --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: -- was there something that you've added in the last ten years that you think has really done well? How different would 18 years ago been to today?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. Well, it's interesting that you ask that. Because Sean Groves, who's been with me at many events doing the Compassion presentation -- and we're friends, we're good ministry friends -- he said, "Wow, are you just -- you just seem so much comfortable here. Is that because it's your home church?" He said, "Because usually things are harder for me at my home church."

I said, "No." Usually I am more stiff. It's harder at my home church. I said, "I think I'm just more comfortable because" -- I'm comfortable in how I know God has led me, but I'm also like, well, this is the last one, you know. I wanted to go out in a blaze of happy. So one of the things about this weekend was I just decided no matter what, I was going to enjoy every minute.

Connor Rothschild: That's cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that was one thing, which is a blessing. And why not apply that to everything? I don't know. I wish I had learned that sooner.

But one thing I've done consistently every event for 164 of them is we all lift our cup and we ask God to fill it up. And then at the end I ask -- you know, we say, "Thank you for filling our cups." Okay, so that's one thing that's been consistent.

Yesterday one thing I did not -- I had planned to do that I did not have time to do because of the dynamic with the conversation with Kirk and then with Spill The Beans -- and I could tell that the dynamic with Kirk was going so well with that conversation -- I'm checking my watch the whole time. I know the two other things I need to do. I realized this is going to be more enriching than me interrupting and moving to the next thing for the sake of time. So, of course, that's where you use discretion and you trust the Holy Spirit.

But I was going to do this fun little Friends medley on the keyboard that I was going to lead the group in. It was just going to be kind of fun and sentimental. Well, I realized that wasn't as worthy as getting more of the conversation with Kirk.

Connor Rothschild: Yeah. And so you would have done something like that had the conversation been a little bit more stale or if, like, it just weren't flowing so well?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, or if it just needed the -- yeah. But I realized it would have been too much of an emotional interruption.

Connor Rothschild: So just inviting Sean up, that was kind of a game-time decision, like, in the moment?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it was, that was game time.

And then when I went from the stool -- I mean, from Sean and Kirk to the stool, I introduced my team and the video, that's not what I had planned to do there.

Connor Rothschild: Gotcha.

Jennifer Rothschild: But the audience needed it at that point, and so...

Connor Rothschild: How many times do you think you'd do that in a given weekend? Like, kind of an --

Jennifer Rothschild: A shift?

Connor Rothschild: Like, in football it'd be like call an audible, you just, like, know -- based on the circumstance, you're like, we're going to change course.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, a lot.

Connor Rothschild: A lot?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Because there's audiences -- I describe them as sitting on the edge of their seat or leaning back with their arms crossed. And so a couple of weeks ago we had an audience that were sitting back with their arms crossed. In other words, like, Prove it to me.

Connor Rothschild: Just not as bought in?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I am not here until you invite me. Well, I caught it real quick and so I started using some of the things that I would normally use. It's almost a little -- not -- I don't know how to describe it. It's almost flirtatious with the audience. They weren't responding. Nothing was happening. And so I had to totally shift. I dropped one story, added a different one to try to feel out if that was their thing. That wasn't their thing. I never really figured out their thing until I finally, after -- near the end of the evening. And my two guests that were with me said the same thing. It was a hard audience. They were just a hard audience. They were tired. It was a very stiff building with stiff views.

Connor Rothschild: Yeah, I wonder if physical environment matters.

Jennifer Rothschild: The environment mattered. And so I realized that -- near the end of the weekend, they were like, "This is the best conference ever," and I thought, Really? Because my expectation and theirs were different. So no matter how much I pivoted, they were going to have a good time based on their expectation, not what I provided.

Clayton Rothschild: How do you sense the audience? Is it a vibe or is it --

Connor Rothschild: Laughter?

Clayton Rothschild: -- laughter? Or what is it?

Jennifer Rothschild: It's both. It's both. So there are certain things that I know are going to work. No matter what, they always work. I always get the same audience reaction, whether it's an "aw" or a laugh or a gasp or a -- and when I don't get those right away, then I start to really try to read. And I can feel the room. I can feel it. Like I said, I can almost tell, are you -- like, there's some audiences, I can feel them sitting on the edge of our seats and they're saying, Make me laugh. Help me. I'm ready. And then there's some that I feel the lean back, prove it to me. And I don't how I can tell, except I can just sense it. Some of it is through how they sing, some of it's through if they laugh at the places that everyone else does or if they don't.

Connor Rothschild: So you can probably tell within the first two minutes of you talking --

Jennifer Rothschild: Absolutely.

Connor Rothschild: -- if they're going to be a softball audience or not?

Jennifer Rothschild: Absolutely.

Connor Rothschild: Interesting.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, absolutely. You know, some of it's just intuitive from doing it a while. One of the things Patsy Clairmont taught me early on, without her knowing she taught me -- she's a master speaker and storyteller. The way she used her pauses and laughing at herself basically told the audience, Your turn. You're supposed to respond here. I'm laughing at me, you're laughing with me. I have employed a lot of that technique. I will spend longer in pauses with facial expressions.

Connor Rothschild: I noticed yesterday you did this kind of -- you make a joke and you immediately smile at the audience, almost like inviting you in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's your turn.

Connor Rothschild: I don't know if I've noticed -- I don't know if I've just been more conscious of that or if that's a new thing that you've done. But I did notice you're kind of like -- and I think stand-up comedians do it too. I think I saw Anita Renfroe do stuff like that. It's like if in the .5 seconds after I make this joke you don't know for sure if you're supposed to laugh, I'm letting you know, like, yeah, you can laugh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly.

Connor Rothschild: And I think it works. I think it definitely works.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. So, like, sometimes when I do this music stuff with them, I'll kind of be holding out a note, and I'll just hold it out until it goes for -- when I'm doing this Southern Gospel thing, I'll hold the note out until it goes, like, ridiculously out of tune. The laughter will start, the laughter will start, the laughter will roar. You know what I mean?

So what I've noticed is -- whereas back when I first started, I was probably so mindful, get it in, get in the content, do it, now I let it kind of ebb and flow, give a lot more pauses, give the audience a lot more time to realize this is their deal too. Like, we're in this together and you need to respond here and -- you know, and it works. And I think it esteems the audience too. I think it says we're together and I'm esteeming you by asking you to be involved.

Clayton Rothschild: Hmm. Interesting.

---

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, guess what? I bet you didn't know this. Did you know that I used to live in Hollywood? Okay, not that one. I lived in Hollywood Dorm when I was a student at Palm Beach Atlantic University back in the '80s. And I just happen to be one of those students who loved dorm life. It let me develop lasting friendships that I still enjoy today.

The whole campus culture at PBA promotes face-to-face, life-on-life learning, academically, spiritually, and relationally. It's located in dreamy West Palm Beach, Florida, and it is the perfect place to find your people, find your calling, and find what makes you come alive. It offers challenging real-world academic degree programs that launch careers of success and meaning across every discipline. It did that for me, and I want that for you and your student. So check it out. 413podcast.com/PBA.

Okay, now let's listen in to the rest of the conversation.

---

Connor Rothschild: So obviously conferences are a big part of what you do, and it's the reason I'm here and, you know, I wanted to talk a lot about Fresh Grounded Faith. I also want to talk a little bit about the other facets of your career, because you're obviously multi-talented, you know. You do conferences, you speak, you also write. And just yesterday we learned about some of the highlights of your recent Bible study and some of the records that you're breaking. That's really cool.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Connor Rothschild: I had a good number of questions about writing, because writing is kind of like a parallel line with speaking in some ways.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Connor Rothschild: I think it's very similar, because how you write inspires how you speak. But it's also very different because, you know, how you pack information in is different, how you tell jokes, for example, is different, if you tell jokes at all. Your books are also unique because they're often, like, Bible studies, and they're read in a group setting, and so you probably have a different lens by which you view how things need to stick --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Connor Rothschild: -- or, like, about how things are talked about within groups. So I'm just very interested in that as a topic.

I want to start with something kind of separate from, like, your writing you do every day, and it's a question that I was just curious about. Is there any book that you wish you could write, that you can't for some reason? And that could be because it's controversial or it's obscure or wouldn't be commercially successful. Like blank slate, no audience exists, you just wish you could kind of write.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Connor Rothschild: Is there a book you wish you could write?

Jennifer Rothschild: A hundred percent. A woman's year with C.S. Lewis. I would like to write a book on C.S. Lewis and the unique relationship, as one woman, that I have had with him intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually. And what I would like to do with that is then translate that to an invitation to another woman and let her have a year with C.S. Lewis. And what I would do is highlight his best works, his most essential thoughts. I would want to connect a quote with a real-life story, with the Scripture, and then take them on an intellectual journey that would bring spiritual gratification.

Clayton Rothschild: Well, I think you can have very sophisticated, intellectually-rich content tied with emotionalism without it being academic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same.

Clayton Rothschild: Because I think academicism --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Clayton Rothschild: -- you know, oftentimes has, you know, specific words that may be specific to the domain of knowledge. I read a trade book recently that I realized halfway through, oh, this is really for an academic theological audience, and it didn't sit with me. But it wasn't that the concepts were too sophisticated, it was just that it was academic.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wasn't written as warmly?

Clayton Rothschild: Exactly, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that's what I do with Bible studies, because that is academic.

Clayton Rothschild: Yeah, sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: But what I do is I have a model I use in my mind that -- I have two models. When I am writing a Bible study, I have two people sitting across the table from me. And because mostly my audience is women, they're two women.

There was a friend of mine, who was an atheist, who loved me and respected me. And her name was Carrie. And I used to have Carrie sitting at my table. And then I would have, like, my friend Lori Cooley, who knows the Word and has walked with the Lord forever. I would have both of them -- I still have both of them sitting at my table in my mind when I write a Bible study.

Because I want to be able to communicate so clearly to the atheist who's listening to me, and in such the way that the Bible teacher is not bored, and both of them feel loved and accepted in what I'm writing. So, therefore, I try to make it that very warm conversational style with both audiences in mind.

I used to think you could only write to one audience, but I don't believe that anymore. Because I think when you're authentic in your messaging and in your story and in the way you're processing your messaging with them, then both the atheist and the Bible teacher are like, "I'm with you." I got that. Because I live a real life too, and here's what mine feels like.

So that's how I write a Bible study, very -- I mean, I'm still doing all of the study, and I'm inviting them to study with me, but I'm doing it in a much more relational way.

Clayton Rothschild: You know, what's notable is that you are a speaker and teacher, and you do these big conferences, and then you're also a writer. And I think to someone like me that hasn't really considered it, you think, oh, yeah, those are the same thing. But really those --

Jennifer Rothschild: Very different.

Clayton Rothschild: -- maybe are not two sides of the same coin. I bet maybe there's some people that are really great speakers, that maybe aren't so good at writing -- maybe -- but you do both. And so the process and even just the frame of mind that you have to be in to be successful in the conference space versus the writing space is very different, I would imagine.

Jennifer Rothschild: They're two different frames of mind.

Clayton Rothschild: And what do you find most fulfilling --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, just because of the way I'm wired --

Clayton Rothschild: -- or natural?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Yes to all of that. Here's why. Okay.

So I find very fulfilling the writing, only because I have to really study. I love research and I love learning. And one of my favorite things that is most fulfilling to me is to take a giant concept into little bite-sized pieces so someone else can process it, and then they feel esteemed because they learned something. Okay, so that's highly fulfilling to me.

And I do like to take the bigger, complicated things -- almost like I'm just getting a machete and walking them through a jungle and making a path for them. I love that. Okay, so that's fulfilling to me.

But I love the challenge of speaking because of the craft. Both of them are different crafts. But the craft of speaking, I have learned it's almost a performance art. And the creativity that God wired me with is fulfilled by the performance art of speaking.

When I first started speaking, I thought it was just communicating a message. Now I've recognized it is the performance art of communicating a truth.

So when I'm doing Bible teaching, I'm still mindful that I am drawing word pictures for people, I'm creating images with my body gestures that they're going to see a space come alive on a stage. That if I'm going to draw something on a banner on the floor that I'm describing, I'm going to physically get on the floor and show -- I'm going to physically be as performance art as I personally can, without being able to walk across the stage well.

So those are two different ways of crafting. And so it's hard to say which is more natural and which is more fulfilling, because anything challenging is fulfilling to me.

[INTERVIEW ENDS]

Yep, I do like anything that is challenging, that's for sure. And my sons' questions, oh, my goodness, they were exactly that, challenging. But there's more. So next week you are invited to listen in to part 2. We're going to talk about C.S. Lewis, how I grew up and really never read any books hardly at all. And we're also going to talk about the book that I will eventually write and what it'll be about, and it might surprise you, so...

Today we did talk about a lot of things, and I mentioned a lot of people. So I want you to check out the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/391, because I'm going to have links to anything or anyone you may be curious about. All right?

Until next week, why don't you get with your people and you ask good questions and have great conversations. You can. And you know why? Because you cand do all things through Christ. All right, see you next week.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Learn From C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien’s Friendship? With Joseph Loconte [Episode 390]

Joseph Loconte: The other thing that Tolkien and Lewis are doing is they are using the existing crisis that they're in and they're turning around and they're using it for good. And they're offering a hopeful vision of the human story at a time when many men and women, particularly after the First World War, had become deeply disillusioned, cynical, morally agnostic. They had rejected any kind of basis -- rational basis for hope.

And these two men are using this disastrous situation, yes, the First World War, but particularly now the Second World War, the sense of urgency that they must have felt, because it's an existential crisis for Great Britain during World War II. And they're using the crisis of that and they're pushing back. And they're saying, even in the midst of this crisis, the choices of individuals matter.

Jennifer Rothschild: During a season when the world was devastated by war, two authors and friends, J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis, gave us a path back to goodness, beauty, and faith. So how did they do it? Well, on today's episode, historian Joseph Loconte is going to explain how the catastrophe of World War II transformed the lives and the literary imaginations of Tolkien and Lewis.

Now, I got to say, I admit, I did nerd out a little bit in this conversation. But you do not have to know these authors or what they wrote to enjoy this life-giving, funny, and insightful conversation about their lives and their friendships. The good professor will show you a Christian vision of our earthly journey through the eyes of Lewis and Tolkien and you will get a glimpse of divine goodness and truth that will serve as an antidote to lies and to hate. Oh, it is just what we need for our day.

So, KC, it's time to nerd out. Here we go.

KC Wright: Let's go. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you and I up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it's so good to have you guys back with us again. And listen, whether you're a C.S. Lewis geek or a Tolkien geek or not even a geek at all, like, no matter where you are, I'm telling you, this is such a life-giving, funny conversation. First of all, Joseph Loconte is a historian, and he's a professor, and he's hilarious. And he's Italian and he can hardly contain his energy. Okay? So he's funny just to -- he's so engaging. You're going to love this conversation.

But what I think you will get as a takeaway is something all of us can relate to, whether you're literary or not, and that is friendship and how we make each other better through friendship and how friendships and solid, cohesive relationships that are based on Christ and biblical truth can change our world.

KC Wright: So good.

Jennifer Rothschild: So tune in and stay with us, because you are just about to love this.

Now, I will tell you this.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: C.S. Lewis --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- he's, like, with me and KC all the time.

KC Wright: All the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: I admire J.R. Tolkien, but, like, I really connect with Lewis.

And KC and I were talking. We both didn't know we did this. But we both went and saw -- it was in December, I think.

KC Wright: Yes, December, in Branson.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Logos Theatre.

KC Wright: Of Narnia on stage.

Jennifer Rothschild: They did Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe, and they did such a good job.

KC Wright: I was center, front row in the center, and it was perfect --

Jennifer Rothschild: It was.

KC Wright: -- amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was word perfect.

KC Wright: It was just phenomenal.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. So if you've not ever seen anything by the Logos Theatre, oh, highly recommend. But you need to watch The Lion, Witch, and Wardrobe with some Turkish delight.

KC Wright: Yes. Elly and I did that over Christmas. We had a C.S. Lewis Christmas --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, you did?

KC Wright: -- where we watched all three movies back to back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. That's awesome.

KC Wright: Well, you know, a couple days in between. But we so enjoyed it. I love it that my girl is into C.S. Lewis.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do too.

KC Wright: So Jennifer has made an impact on me with C.S. Lewis, therefore rubbing off on my daughter, and so we are all majorly C.S. Lewis geeks now. And I just was -- I did a deep dive over Christmas into his life, and C.S. Lewis remained single -- did you know this? -- until he was 58 years old --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, I knew this, of course.

KC Wright: -- where he married a woman named Joy Davidman in 1956. So most of his life he assumed he would never marry, and even wrote skeptically about romance, then unexpectedly love found him later in life. And their relationship deeply shaped his later writings, especially "A Grief Observed" after Joy's death.

So anyway, just a powerful reminder to those of you listening that God's timing isn't rushed, calling and fruitfulness aren't limited by age, and some of the most meaningful chapters open late in life.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC, that's a very good word.

KC Wright: So Lewis himself said Joy brought him a happiness "I had never dreamed of."

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and you know what? It wasn't just a gushy romance. She was his intellectual equal. Which it's not easy to find an intellectual equal. Except, of course, J.R.R. Tolkien was too.

Okay. I'm just saying, enough from us. Let's hear from the historian, the professor, the expert, Joseph Loconte.

KC Wright: Dr. Joseph Loconte is an author, historian, and filmmaker. He serves as Director of the Rivendell Center in New York City. He is a presidential scholar at New College of Florida and the C.S. Lewis Scholar for Public Life at Grove City College. He's from Brooklyn, New York, and he's a frequent traveler to sunny Italy. He hosts the YouTube History channel "History and the Human Story." I'll say that again, because you need to go to YouTube and find it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. Right?

KC Wright: It's called "History and the Human Story." He is also the author of the New York Times bestseller, "A Hobbit, A Wardrobe, and A Great War," and his new release, "The War for Middle Earth," which is the book he and Jennifer are talking about today.

So get ready, get comfy, get smarter.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: This is what is about to happen. Okay, here we go. Dr. Joseph and Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. I am so excited -- I told you off mic that I'm so excited that we get to have this conversation, Dr. Loconte, and so we're going to start with this. Most everyone listening, you know, they know who Lewis and Tolkien are, but that may only include knowing a little about them. Like, they may not really know. So I think we need to start with that, with some introductions.

Who are these two men? And then also give us a picture of what their life was like, what their world was like in Oxford, England, at the time.

Joseph Loconte: Yeah. Thank you, Jennifer. Great to be with you.

You know, these are two of the most important Christian authors of the last 100 years, without exception. And what both of these men did was to reintroduce into the modern mind the concept of the epic hero. And the reason that's so significant is because they're living in a time, they're coming of age in the 1920s and 1930s and right into 1940s, when the whole concept of individual heroism, virtue, faith, it is being deeply challenged by the various ideologies that they are awash in in that period during the 20th century.

When I say ideologies, I mean things like Fascism, Nazism, Communism, Totalitarianism, eugenics, scientism, materialism, all of these ideas that are so contrary to the Christian understanding of the human person. And Tolkien and Lewis have come of age as scholars, as authors, in the midst of this ideological fight, this battleground.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and some people may not know that Oxford -- I mean, they think of Oxford, England, as a town. But it's also a university. So tell us about that and what life was like, therefore, in Oxford when these two guys were coming of age either as students or professors.

Joseph Loconte: Yeah, They both studied and got their degrees at Oxford in English literature. They both fought in the First World War. Tolkien in 1916 at the Battle of the Somme in France. C.S. Lewis arrived on the battlefields of France on his 19th birthday in 1917. They both survive, but they lose most of their closest friends in that battle, in that war.

And so here it is, these guys, they fought in the First World War. They didn't know each other then. They meet each other at Oxford when they return to Oxford to begin their academic careers. They meet in 1926, as far as we know, for the first time at a faculty meeting. And, Jennifer, if you think about the impact that these two men have had through their writings on millions of people around the world throughout the decades, that was probably the most important faculty meeting in the history of faculty meetings.

And they don't start out as friends, but they pretty quickly become friends because of their shared love for epic literature and myth. And, of course, eventually their common Christian faith is going to bind them even more closely together.

But Oxford in the 1920s, this was a university that had -- in a sense it had been through the war. So many of its young men had gone off to fight and never returned. So it's recovering academically now as a premier university in the world, and these two men are there now, both chasing their professions in the 1920s as scholars of English literature.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and we could also say that's one of the most productive faculty meetings ever.

Joseph Loconte: Exactly right.

Jennifer Rothschild: But here's the thing. Some listening may not realize the faith impact that Tolkien had on Lewis, because some may believe that Lewis just grew up a Christian. Tolkien, I believe -- I don't know him as well. I believe he was a Catholic believer, very strong faith. Give us just a picture and even maybe take us to Addison's Walk. Let us understand that part.

Joseph Loconte: Wonderful question. And, you know, there are many influences on C.S. Lewis' life. You can read about those in his autobiography, "Surprised By Joy." Many voices spoke into his mind over a period of years.

Because remember, Jennifer, when he went into the First World War, he was an atheist. He was an atheist in a foxhole literally. And his poetry in 1919, a book of poems, "Spirits In Bondage," he is raging against the God of the universe. "Let us curse our Master ere we die. The good is dead. Let us curse God most High." That's C.S. Lewis in 1919. So he remains an atheist through the 1920s. He begins to kind of shed his very militant materialism and is open to maybe spiritual influences. He becomes more of an agnostic. By the time he meets Tolkien, he's really on a faith journey.

And then by the time you get to 1931, as these two men have become great friends, they have this discussion -- let's call it a debate really -- after they have dinner. And another friend joins them, Hugo Dyson. The three of them are walking along this footpath called Addison's Walk. And I've been there. It snakes along the river there in Oxford. And they start having a debate about myths and the meaning of myths. Because both of these men, Tolkien and Lewis, are really drawn to these ancient mythic stories, the Greek and Roman myths, Beowulf. They love these big epic stories with this idea of sacrifice.

And the problem -- the hang-up for Lewis is he thinks that Christianity is just like these ancient pagan myths, that there's no truth to it, it's just made-up stuff. There's no truth value.

And what Tolkien helps him to see is, now, wait a minute, the things -- he says to Lewis, the things that you love in these older myths, this idea of nobility and virtue and sacrifice, these elements, they are intimations of a greater story, a true story, a true myth. Christianity, the myth that became fact. The God man in Jesus comes to earth, dies for our sins, rises back to life to open up a path to heaven for us. That's the myth that became fact. And all these other great stories that you love, Lewis, they are splintered fragments of the True Light.

That is the intellectual breakthrough for C.S. Lewis, Jennifer. I think only -- this is in the grace and the mercy of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joseph Loconte: I think only J.R.R. Tolkien, because of his intelligence, because of his friendship with Lewis, I think he's probably the only person on earth who could have spoken to him at that moment and taken down his prejudices against Christianity. Because it's just within a matter of days that he really converts to Christianity, becomes a believer as he writes about to his brother, and then later in his autobiography. It is a pivotal transformational conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: It blows my mind. And it's a reminder to us as believers in Christ to never shy away from debate, to never shy away from someone who seems like they're not really interested in anything but a fight. Love them, walk with them --

Joseph Loconte: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and see what God does.

Okay. So obviously this friendship -- and we're going to talk a little more about this. But this friendship changed -- well, God used it to change C.S. Lewis' life. But it also impacted their works. And we're going to talk about that. But before we do, I want to talk about Tolkien first. And he's not my guy. I'm not as familiar with him. But I know people love him. I've tried. I just haven't gotten there yet. I love him as a person. I just haven't gotten into his writing yet.

So I want us to understand him a little better. I want to know how his experiences in World War I show up in, like, his epic work "The Lord of the Rings."

Joseph Loconte: Yeah. In numerous ways. And then also the Second World War, which also works very powerfully on his imagination, I think, in general.

But let's take the First World War. For those Tolkien fans out there -- and if you've seen the movies, you'll get some of this too. The attempt to destroy the ring, Sam and Frodo in the Dead Marshes. And there's a scene there in the movie, and also in the book, where Sam falls on his face into the marsh and he sees these dead faces in the water. Dead faces. It's this hideous kind of scene.

And you think it's just complete fantasy, but it's not. Because anybody who served -- any British soldier who served in France, particularly at the Battle of the Somme, that soldier would have encountered men, soldiers dead in pools of water, large craters that would have been created from the mortars, the powerful artillery. And those bodies would lie there for days or weeks at a time and you would just discover them.

So that literary image, it has to be drawn from an actual war experience. That's just one example.

Another I'll give, though, which really got me thinking about these two men and the impact of war on their lives, Tolkien says explicitly that his Sam Gamgee is based upon the ordinary English soldier with whom he served during the First World War "and considered so superior to myself." So think about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Joseph Loconte: One of the most beloved characters in all of modern fiction, "The Hobbit," is based on the ordinary English soldier doing his bit for king and country there in a trench. Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Joseph Loconte: Wow. Heroism, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: That makes me want to read it again. Yeah, that makes me really want to read it differently. I love that.

Joseph Loconte: Yeah. It's so impressive. Go ahead.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I was also thinking -- and I'm glad I'm talking to you because you'll know. Maybe it was in "Surprised By Joy" where C.S. Lewis describes these men like crushed beetles --

Joseph Loconte: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- in the war. I mean, they saw devastation that we can't conceive of.

Joseph Loconte: Yes. It was heartbreaking. And this is what kind of takes you back to the Second World War. I think it's so important for your audience and for people who love Tolkien and Lewis to realize that their lives were bracketed by two global conflicts. And there's no one alive who can tell us anything about that, right? So 20 years after the First World War, they have to endure a Second World War.

And here's an excerpt, if I could, a quick excerpt.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, please.

Joseph Loconte: Tolkien wrote a letter to his son Michael. His oldest son is serving in the British military. He's an anti-aircraft gunner. This is in 1941. And his son is understandably anxious about his own life. You know, is he going to survive?

And here's what Tolkien writes to his son Michael. "I never expected to survive," thinking about his own war experience, "and the intense emotion of regret. The vivid perception of the young man who feels himself doomed to die before he has said his word is with me still. A cloud, a patch of sun, a star were often more than I could bear."

I mean, think about the poignancy of that. What he's sharing his raw emotion with his son of I'm not going to get to finish. My life is going to end in this trench or under fire here now. I'm not going to get to taste again what it means to be a human being, to experience beauty.

I mean, that's what life was like for these men, not only in the first World War, but even more so during the Second World War. And that's really what my second book is about, "The War for Middle Earth," how did the cataclysm of that war press upon their imaginations?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, let's move there. And by the way, those were -- just hearing you read them, I felt the weight of them. Those are heavy words.

So let's move to the Second World War and to Lewis, "Mere Christianity." Okay. That book that we all love, "Mere Christianity" it's based on wartime addresses.

Joseph Loconte: Of course.

Jennifer Rothschild: So tell us about that and what the impact of those broadcasts had on Britain. Because you just talked about the morale of soldiers. What about the morale of Britain? And how did his radio addresses impact his morale? And I'm curious, did those radio addresses impact other writing besides "Mere Christianity"?

Joseph Loconte: Those are fabulous questions. Let me take a stab at it, Jennifer, and remind our audience here. Okay, this is England. England's at war. 1939 is the beginning of the Second World War. America is on the sidelines until Pearl Harbor at the end of 1941. So Britain is hanging by a thread. Let's keep the context in mind. It's an existential struggle for Great Britain because everyone's expecting an invasion at any moment from Nazi Germany. That's what they're bracing for.

So it's in the midst of that that the religious director of the BBC, he goes to C.S. Lewis -- because he's read C.S. Lewis' book "The Problem of Pain, and he thinks, you know, this guy can communicate Christian truth to a broad audience. Let me get him to do a series of radio broadcasts explaining and defending the Christian faith. That's what the BBC was willing to do --

Jennifer Rothschild: Remarkable.

Joseph Loconte: -- in 1941.

Jennifer Rothschild: Remarkable.

Joseph Loconte: Well, how far they have fallen, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joseph Loconte: But that's where they were in 1941-42.

So they go to Lewis, who doesn't even really listen to the radio. He's not inclined to do this, this is not his medium, but he decides, no, this is an opportunity. I'm going to get out of my comfort zone and I'm going to do this. He travels from Oxford to London by train, not without risk to himself, Jennifer, because the Nazis are still bombing London and the BBC has been bombed several times.

So here he goes to do his broadcast. Fifteen minutes is what he gets, 8:45 to 9:00. How does he start his broadcast in Anglican England in 1941-42? How does he start his -- here's the opening line, Jennifer, which is the opening line of "Mere Christianity." The opening line is, "Everyone has heard people quarreling." "Everyone has heard people quarreling."

Now, what do we do when we quarrel? Well, we say things like, you know, "You told me you were going to do that, and you didn't. You broke your promise." "Hey, you took a piece of my pie. Give it back." We appeal to a standard, a moral standard that the other person seems to be violating. And we realize that we ourselves violate our own standards.

But the point is, we appeal to an absolute, an absolute moral standard. That's where Lewis has to start in Anglican England because it's so secular. He can't start with Jesus. He will take his audience to Jesus, but he can't start there. That's maybe something we should think about now --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Joseph Loconte: -- 80 years later -- right? --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Joseph Loconte: -- as we try to reach people with the Gospel.

But the point is, those broadcasts become "Mere Christianity." They're put together in that book, which most people would say probably the most influential work of apologetics in, like, the last 200 years, right? But it was produced in a period of absolute civilizational crisis. Will Great Britain even survive the war? That's Lewis living out his vocation, because he cares deeply about people and he cares about the Gospel.

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---

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I'm curious too. My understanding is that in his academic circles, he was respected as a medieval scholar, but he was not respected by his colleagues with his imaginative works. I'm curious, how -- do you know how that went over when he's on BBC talking about Christianity?

Joseph Loconte: That's a great question. I think -- we have to read a little bit between the lines. But I think there was a real professional jealousy and kind of a condescension that he experienced from his colleagues. And not from Tolkien on this, but from his other colleagues who are not Christians. You know, why is this academic, who's supposed to be doing academic work -- who does he think he is trying to educate us about Christianity, which, by the way, is a mythological belief system anyway? That's what his peers are thinking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Wow.

Joseph Loconte: And I think we can conclude this because Lewis was never offered a full professorship at Oxford. He got that at Cambridge. It's one of the reasons he left Oxford to go to Cambridge in the 1950s. So I think there was this professional envy and jealousy and condescension that he had to battle against as his Christian credentials became more obvious. He's really believing this stuff that the Christians have been talking about for 2,000 years, and most academics at Oxford, at least many, they don't.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. I think that's such an example of humility --

Joseph Loconte: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- of the sacrifice of the call. You just do -- you just do and let the chips fall as they may. But, you know --

Joseph Loconte: That's exactly right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Oxford's loss anyway.

Joseph Loconte: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So Tolkien and Lewis, you mentioned earlier during their lifetime they saw the rise of such, you know, Totalitarianism, Fascism, et cetera. Okay. So how do you think that shaped -- or do you think that shaped the way they portray evil --

Joseph Loconte: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- in their fantasy worlds?

Joseph Loconte: Oh, that's a fabulous question, Jennifer. Let me give you a very concrete example. 1940, summer of 1940 -- and by now, all of Western and Central Europe is under Nazi control. France has fallen. Britain is still alone in this, and the Battle of Britain has just begun to rage, the Nazis trying to take over Britain. And Hitler gives a triumphant speech, and it's broadcast over the BBC. It's simultaneously translated into English. Guess who's listening to that Hitler speech in 1940? C.S. Lewis. He's listening to it with his doctor friend, Dr. Havard. And when Lewis writes to his brother the next day, he says this. He says, "I don't know if I'm weaker than other people, but while the speech lasts, it is almost impossible not to waver just a little."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

Joseph Loconte: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joseph Loconte: This is C.S. Lewis we're talking about.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Joseph Loconte: This is not some gullible personality. And he finds himself drawn into the propaganda and the power of this message from this man who is demonic. So what happens now? That's a Friday.

What happens on Sunday? Lewis is in church. The sermon is going on and on and Lewis starts thinking about the devil. Now, I don't know how bad the sermon was, but he starts thinking about the devil. And he gets the idea -- as he writes to his brother, he gets the idea of a diabolical fantasy, with a senior demon corresponding with a junior demon about how to capture a human soul and drag it into perdition. He calls his book "The Screwtape Letters."

Jennifer, I don't think it's any accident that on a Friday he hears this broadcast from Hitler, on Sunday he starts thinking about the devil in "The Screwtape Letters." And the amazing thing -- back to your question. How is he going to portray evil? Yes, there's evil outside of us, and it can actually capture entire regimes, like Nazi Germany, but there's evil in us, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Right.

Joseph Loconte: We are fallen creatures, and there's darkness all around and within us. And that's what "The Screwtape Letters" is about, isn't it? It's kind of a moral diagnostic every time you read it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Joseph Loconte: So that is one of the ways in which the evil that's going on outside on the battlefield -- there's a war of ideas, there's a war for the souls of men and women, and that's going on all the time regardless of the battle out there in Europe or in France or wherever. That, to me, is such a powerful lesson for all of us, isn't it?

Jennifer Rothschild: Huge. And it's easy to focus on the out-there evil. But if we disregard the potential for our own corruption, then it doesn't matter what's happening out there.

Joseph Loconte: Yes. And think about it. Let's think about Tolkien now. Same for Tolkien in "The Lord of the Rings." You know, what does the ring represent?

You know, when the book was published, when "The Lord of the Rings" was published in the early 1950s -- and, you know, by that time, we're into atomic power and there's an arms race going on. So a lot of people assumed that "The Lord of the Rings," that the ring itself, it's really just kind of a metaphor, a symbol for atomic power.

And Tolkien sets them straight. He says, of course, the ring is not a metaphor for atomic power, but of power exerted for domination. He tells us what the book is about. It's about power exerted for domination. Well, that's exactly what they saw from their vantage point in Great Britain, the rise of these Totalitarianism states.

But also, of course, what is "The Lord of the Rings" about? It's about our ability, the capacity to be drawn into that evil. Just the lusting for power, the lust to dominate, right? That's our problem. That's not somebody else's problem, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. And that's what creates the problems.

Joseph Loconte: Exactly right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Joseph Loconte: That's what's so important about these authors. Yes, they're aware of the global conflict, the cataclysm that's going on around them. You can't avoid it. And I think it influences their writings. But both men in their writings are trying to draw attention to the inner struggle, the struggle for our own souls.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. I just love that both of them are so circumspect.

Joseph Loconte: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's just part of the humility and brilliance of both of their lives. So here I'm curious listening to you. You're clearly a scholar who knows so much more than most of us have even ever thought about with these guys.

So I'm curious in your research, for any of the books or even for this book, is there anything that surprised you? Like, did you learn anything different or go, like, "Wow, I had no idea," when you were researching this? Maybe their letters or their wartime correspondence?

Joseph Loconte: Well, it's a wonderful question. There were many, many things that surprised me, Jennifer. Let me just mention one.

I didn't appreciate how -- because these men were scholars and they were rooted in the classical medieval Christian tradition, the great epic works of Western civilization: Homer, Vergil, Dante, Milton. This is their intellectual furniture. They didn't think of these great stories from a vacuum. If they don't have that intellectual foundation, you don't get "The Hobbit," you don't get "The Lord of the Rings," you don't get "The Space Trilogy," you don't get "The Chronicles of Narnia" without that great classical Christian inheritance.

And I'll give you one example of this. One of the students of Tolkien and Lewis, a woman named Helen Tyrrell Wheeler, she writes this little reflective essay about her time with them. It's so impressive to read from this young woman during the Second World War, sitting in on their classes where they're teaching Beowulf. Lewis is teaching about Vergil's "The Aeneid." And here's how she described the impact of their teaching on her. Here's what she said.

"Well, what it meant for my generation of English language and literature undergraduates was that what happened in the great books was of equal significance to what happened in life. Indeed, they were the same."

Now, think about that. What happened in the great books was of equal significance to what's happening in life, the war that we're in right now. What does she mean? It's so perceptive. I think she means that the truths about the human condition that are embedded in those great works about virtue, about heroism, about betrayal, about sin, about redemption, those great truths embedded in the great works of Western civilization, they speak to us now in the present crisis. What a perceptive young woman, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joseph Loconte: That was a surprise for me. I didn't anticipate how these men were able to bring together this classical Christian tradition. In their teaching, yes; in their scholarship; but then, of course, through their imaginative works. There's no one -- they have no rivals. They have no peer in their ability to do that, to bring those things together.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Which is why they still stand as giants and why we still -- every time I read anything -- like I'm re-reading Narnia right now leading up to Advent -- I'm sorry -- Easter. A book a month. And I've read them before, and every time it's just like, wow, there's more, there's more, there's more, because it's so embedded and woven in.

Joseph Loconte: Yes. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So there's a concept you write about, that I'm going to mispronounce, so you're going to need to correct me, Professor. And then you're going to need to tell us what it is. Okay. Eucatastroph.

Joseph Loconte: Oh, yeah. You're close. Eucatastrophe.

Jennifer Rothschild: Eucatastrophe. Okay.

Joseph Loconte: Eucatastrophe.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. What is that? What is that, and how does that show up in their lit?

Joseph Loconte: Well, this is a phrase that Tolkien invented. And what he means by it is the undoing of a catastrophe, the reversal of a catastrophe. And another way he described it was a sudden miraculous grace. And you see this, of course, in "The Lord of the Rings."

Now, this is a spoiler alert for your audience now, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. We're warned.

Joseph Loconte: Okay. You know, Frodo, at the end of the day he doesn't really succeed in his quest, does he? Not fully. Because at the end of the story, what does he do at the Cracks of Mount Doom? He says, "I shall not do what I came to do. The ring is mine," and he puts it back on his finger. And then Gollum, this hideous creature, this self-absorbed creature who desires the ring, bites his finger, bites it off of him. Just grabs the ring by biting it off of his finger. And then Gollum slips and falls into the Crack of Doom and the ring is destroyed.

And that's the eucatastrophe. The catastrophe is Frodo is about to fail in his quest. He's gone all this way with his great companion, Sam, to try to take the ring and destroy it. And at the end, he succumbs. But then at the end there's a reversal, a eucatastrophe, a sudden miraculous grace. I mean, it's right -- it's the Gospel.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is the Gospel.

Joseph Loconte: We need a force outside of us to save us from the great evil. We can't save ourselves.

And think about "The Chronicles of Narnia." You know, the children at the end of the day in the last battle -- again another spoiler alert, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's okay. You're on a roll. Keep going.

Joseph Loconte: The children do not save themselves from the demon Tash, right? Aslan has to save them. Aslan has to break in, break in and lead the way to Narnia, that great kingdom beyond the sea.

So a sudden miraculous grace. All hope is lost despite all of their efforts, despite all of their heroism and their struggle, which they're required to do. They are called upon to be brave and heroic and to fight against evil, but in the end they cannot defeat these dark forces on their own. They need grace, grace outside of themselves, of course, the grace of Christ ultimately at the center of their stories. Both their stories, I would say.

Jennifer Rothschild: And all of our stories. That is what we need. May it be, Lord.

Joseph Loconte: Yes. Beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So some are listening right now, and they're creatives. They want to write or whatever artist. I'm curious, in your opinion what can a creative learn from how Tolkien and Lewis used their creativity back in the day?

Joseph Loconte: Wow, what a rich question that is, Jennifer. Let me take a stab at it. Because in a sense -- I'm not a creative in the sense that Tolkien and Lewis were creatives. I'm a history guy, so I try to write fact, not fiction. Although my nattering critics will accuse me of writing fiction, I'm writing fact for the most part.

Jennifer Rothschild: I got you. I'm with you.

Joseph Loconte: Now, I come from an Italian American family, so we do embellish just a little bit, you know, just a little bit. But if I'm giving advice to young authors, there's a couple of things I would say. I've already alluded to one of them. Get yourself grounded in great works of literature.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Joseph Loconte: Don't discard that literary canon, as many people have done, unfortunately, out there in the last, you know, 10, 15, 20 years, discarding the literary canon. Homer, Dante, Vergil, Milton, I mean, these great works. We've got to get them into our minds and let them do some moral formation on us. So we need that. I'm speaking, I think, probably to a largely Christian audience.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Joseph Loconte: But even if you're not a believer, you know, the Bible itself is such a powerful story. The narrative arc of the Bible, of course, is a story about freedom and redemption, isn't it? The Jewish people taken out of slavery and become land owners and free men and women. They're saved from slavery, rescued.

And, of course, the New Testament, the story of God rescuing his people from the slavery of sin and the fear of death. It's a freedom story, the Bible, in so many ways. And getting the literature of the Bible, the themes of the Bible also into your mind will be a great help as a writer, I believe, as well. So that's -- at the level of intellectual furniture, that's a good thing to do.

But, of course, the other thing that Tolkien and Lewis are doing is they are using the existing crisis that they're in, and they're turning around and they're using it for good. And they're offering a hopeful vision of the human story at a time when many men and women, particularly after the First World War, had become deeply disillusioned, cynical, morally agnostic. They had rejected any kind of basis -- rational basis for hope.

And these two men are using this disastrous situation, yes, the First World War, but particularly now the Second World War, the sense of urgency that they must have felt. Because there's an existential crisis for Great Britain during World War II, and they're using the crisis of that and they're pushing back and they're saying even in the midst of this crisis, the choices of individuals matter. Whether you're a little hobbit or a mouse named Reepicheep --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Joseph Loconte: -- your choices matter, and they can echo into eternity. And you have to decide are you going to join the side of the good, the side of light, or are you going to join the side of darkness and the forces of darkness? Because it's going to shape your soul. And that is a tremendously hopeful story, it seems to me, given the impact of their works. We're still talking about them 80 years later.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, you may have just alluded to how you may answer this last question. And I really hate that it's the last question. I'm glad you've written the book, because this is -- this is just such a deeply satisfying conversation. I appreciate your scholarship, I appreciate your -- wow, how excessively you communicated. It's super inspiring to me. So this will be our last question, though.

All right. You describe Lewis' and Tolkien's works as a blueprint for resilience. Okay?

Joseph Loconte: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So how can we apply their blueprint to our world today?

Joseph Loconte: Boy. You know, it is a blueprint, because what these men did was they created a kind of beachhead of resistance in a deeply destructive, dark time. So if we think about ourselves -- and I think this is deeply biblical -- we're also living in a fallen world and there are spiritual forces of darkness raging around us. So we have to ask ourselves, are we going to be part of the resistance or not? Are we going to be part of the resistance or not? Because we live in enemy-occupied territory, as C.S. Lewis put it in "Mere Christianity." We live in enemy-occupied territory and we need to be part of the resistance.

So I want to quote you, if I could -- I think a partial answer to your question, Jennifer, I want to quote you from this piece of a letter that Lewis wrote to Tolkien after he had completed "The Lord of the Rings." I think this will help offer some guidance to young people, older people about how to get on with our callings, our vocations, in any station. Here's what Lewis wrote to Tolkien, the impact of "The Lord of the Rings" on him.

He said, "So much of your whole life, so much of our joint life, so much of the war, so much that seem to be slipping away without a trace into the past is now in a sort made permanent."

I don't know if we even grasp what he's saying. But I think what he's saying is that somehow what Tolkien has done through his creative work, he's captured something of the common journey, life's journey, that he and Lewis have had together through the darkest of times, but also with all the great joys they've experienced. And he's hidden that story, a piece of it, in the pages of "The Lord of the Rings." That's what I think he means.

And what that tells me is this is what friendship, deep Christian friendship, can achieve when it reaches for a high purpose and when it's watered by the streams of loyalty and love. And I think if we can think in those terms and order our lives in such a way that we bring a band of men and women around us who are life travelers -- they had one another, they had a larger circle of friends, the Inklings. They were committed to something larger than themselves.

And I think that's part of the -- the way we pass through this life with joy and with significance is with others in a common task to advance God's purposes in this world.

Jennifer Rothschild: This is what friendship can achieve when it reaches for a high purpose. So let's do the same. Let's order our lives accordingly. So get your fellow life travelers and travel this life together.

KC Wright: As Lewis would say, "Onward and upward."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

KC Wright: I am so glad we're giving away one of Dr. Loconte's books. Go to Jennifer's Insta, @jennrothschild on Instagram, to enter to win, and go to the Show Notes to find the transcript. Because this conversation was so full and so rich, if you're like me, you're going to want to review.

Plus, you can go to Oxford with Jennifer in her audio pictures.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. We're going to have a link to those.

KC Wright: All of that on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/390.

Well, I feel like I need a sip of some stout British tea.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Using British accent) Yes, darling, you do.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it's going to taste better, KC, with a friend.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you do that too, our 4:13ers. Find a friend, share life together. You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, by the way, you know, I've been to C.S. Lewis' home, The Kilns.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I had the privilege of having tea there once. And I was served what allegedly --

KC Wright: Allegedly.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- was his favorite blend called the Yorkshire blend.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness. I love it because it's -- speaking of stout. Like, it could grow legs and walk out of the house by itself, it is so strong.

KC Wright: Whoa.

Jennifer Rothschild: I loved it. I brought some home and I served a little British tea to my friends. All of them, their hearts started racing. They're like, "What is this? It's got so much caffeine." I didn't even notice.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Figure Out My Own Love Language? With Dr. Gary Chapman [Episode 389]

Gary Chapman: But what it does is not only give you your primary secondary love language like that, but it also tells you, in your primary language here is your primary dialect. There might be two or three or four dialects in speaking this particular language, but here's the one that's most important to you. And that is very insightful about yourself.

And when you're sharing this information with your partner, for example, in a marriage, man, it's really important to know not only the language, but also the dialect within that language that's most important. And then what's the second most important?

Jennifer Rothschild: Dr. Gary Chapman has helped more than 150 million people discover their own love language. I'm curious, do you know yours? Well, discovering it, though, is just the beginning. Love is not one size fits all, because what says "I love you" to one person might not mean a thing to another person.

So on today's episode, Gary Chapman is going to reveal why love often gets lost in translation and how learning to speak the right dialect of a love language at the right time is the key to deeper connection. So whether you're dating, married, or seeking to deepen lifelong friendships, this conversation will give you tools for all your relationships. Plus -- guess what? -- you're going to get to figure out your own love language.

And lastly, when we're done, I thought that I would just sing over you a song that I wrote for my stud husband since it's, you know, near Valentine's Day and all.

So, KC -- (singing) love is in the air -- let's go.

KC Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Jennifer here. It's me and KC Wright here in the podcast closet, and our goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13.

This might be a fun weekend for you, Valentine's weekend, or it might not be quite as fun. What did you once call Valentine's Day?

KC Wright: Single Awareness Day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Single Awareness Day. And you know what? A lot of my best friends are not married. They are single women. And, yeah, I hope that all of the single people out there are not seeing this as an indictment on a lack of relationship, but a celebration on the diversity of relationships. Some of our best friends -- you know, I told you about my tattoo that I got a few weeks ago.

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I went with my BFFs, and all three of them are single. And we all three got our tattoos together and had the best weekend ever.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So even if you call it Single Awareness Day, just know that this is about all of our relationships.

And let me say this too, KC.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: If people have done the love languages -- you know, cause it's like 20 years old -- this is different. This is deeper.

KC Wright: Oh, okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: He's going to slightly different -- it's like he deepened it with tactics and dialects. And I did the assessment, and I'm telling you, it taught me so much about myself. Even though Phil may know that my love language is words of affirmation --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- sometimes it just feels shallow to me, and now I understand why --

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because it's a different dialect that he is speaking than the one that I need to hear. Okay, that's your tease.

But speaking of words of affirmation --

KC Wright: Good tease.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and relationships, we've gotten the sweetest reviews, and we just got to shout out to some of these people we love. Okay. The one that was posted on Apple Podcasts, why don't you read that one first. And then we've got an email.

KC Wright: "The Best of the Best" is the title of this from precious Sherry Meyer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sherry.

KC Wright: Love you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank you, Sherry.

KC Wright: "Jennifer and KC pack an incredible punch," she says. "Their podcast perfectly blends faith, humility, laughter, love, and everyday realities. I tune in faithfully and always feel motivated to do better and be better in my spiritual journey. The only fault I can find is purely my own. While recently running a half marathon, I was completely engrossed in their amazing content and I neglected my pace. It was my slowest half marathon ever. A testament of how captivating their podcast is. I am grateful to have them running alongside me in this marathon called life. This is a warm hello from Melbourne, Florida. Please pass along our love as well to the wonderful Dr. Phil."

Jennifer Rothschild: Isn't that the sweetest?

KC Wright: So sweet.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm telling you, these -- listen, I'm happy to be running along with Sherry. That will be the only running I will do, Sherry.

KC Wright: Right. We only run unless there's a bear chasing us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or unless there's a really good sale at Target or Starbucks is giving away half-price drinks.

KC Wright: We are on the way. Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway, sweet words of affirmation. But really what it shows is just the relationships.

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm so grateful.

Okay. Did you read all of them, or is there one more?

KC Wright: By the way, every time you leave a podcast review, you are saying Amen to the podcast, and each review is like a little -- it's like a stone being thrown in a pond and it gives a ripple effect and helps us reach more for Jesus. And so thank you so much for leaving the reviews.

Now, these came in through the emails.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Yes. And this one just says, "Many thanks to you for your teaching, Jennifer, for all the years you've given us your wonderful teaching. You and KC, by the way, on the 4:13 Podcast are always so joyful and encouraging, with your Bible teaching so amazing and wonderful. Thank you for the interesting and helpful interviews on the variety of topics to explore God's Word."

You know, the other day somebody was going through something, and they were sharing with me, and I'm like, "I think we have a podcast on that." I got to pull out the Rolodex of my memory. I'm like, "Yeah, we do have a podcast on that."

Jennifer Rothschild: Probably so, yeah. And you got one more there. Let's just give her a shout out.

KC Wright: So that one was from Nancy. And this one is from sweet Lisa. And Lisa just took some time out of her busy day to send a little email that said, "Thank you for your podcast. They are always so uplifting."

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, thank you, Lisa.

KC Wright: So thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Your words are uplifting. Y'all, I just -- thank you for your friendship. So many of you have been with us from the beginning. Or maybe you've just found us in the last few months, but you've gone back to the beginning -- I've heard that from many people -- and you're just listening and -- listen, we are so grateful for you. You are part of our 4:13 family. We love you. And I just hope you know this -- especially this weekend of all weekends, you are absolutely loved. And I wish we could all be shoved in this closet together and you could just feel how much KC and I genuinely appreciate and --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- affirm and love you.

And this conversation, I think, is going to be super helpful. And speaking of people we love, Dr. Gary Chapman. He has been such a steadfast voice for us as believers when it comes to relationships, so I think you're going to really benefit from what the good doctor has to say today.

KC Wright: It truly is an honor to have him on the podcast. Dr. Gary Chapman is an author, speaker, pastor, and counselor. He has practiced family counseling for more than 30 years, and his nationally syndicated radio programs air on the Moody Radio Network. You're going to learn a lot today. So get ready, the doctor is in.

Jennifer Rothschild: The doctor is in.

KC Wright: Here's Jennifer Rothschild and Gary Chapman.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Gary. I've been looking forward to this conversation because I personally just did the love language assessment. But for those people who might be listening right now, who are brand new on Planet Earth, they may not know that you are known for the love languages. This book, I believe it was first published -- the first book was, like, in 1992. I was a newlywed. I remember this 'cause Phil and I --

Gary Chapman: Oh, yes, that's correct.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we read it. I remember.

All right. So this concept, though, might be new or unfamiliar or just need a refreshment to some people. So just give us the general idea. What is love languages, and what are specifically the five love languages?

Gary Chapman: Okay. Well, the basic idea is that what makes one person feel loved doesn't necessarily make another person feel loved. And I discovered that in my counseling, where one of them would say, "I don't feel loved by my spouse," and the other one would say, "I don't understand that. I do this and this and this and this. Why would you not feel loved?"

So eventually I went through my notes, because I heard this over and over again in my office, and asked myself -- and read the notes that I made when I was counseling and asked myself, when someone said, "I feel like my spouse doesn't love me," what were they complaining about? And their answers fell into five categories.

And I later called them the five love languages and started using the concept in my counseling. That if you want her to feel loved, you've got to learn to express love in her language. And if you want him to feel love, you've got to learn to express your love in his language.

So here are the five languages I discovered. And these are no particular order. But one of them would be words of affirmation. "You look nice in that outfit." "I really appreciate what you did." "You know one of the things I like about you?" It's just using words, you know. There's an ancient Hebrew proverb that says life and death is in the power of the tongue. So affirming words is for some people their love language.

And then number two would be acts of service, doing something for the other person that you know they would like for you to do. In a marriage, that might be such things as cooking a meal or washing dishes or vacuuming floors or mowing grass or walking the dog or changing the baby's diaper. Okay? That's a big act of service.

Jennifer Rothschild: For some, yes, for sure.

Gary Chapman: And then number three would be gifts. It's universal to give gifts as an expression of love. The gift says they were thinking about me. Look what they got for me.

And then number four is quality time. Giving the person your undivided attention. I do not mean sitting on the couch watching television together. Someone else has your attention. I'm talking about sitting -- the TV is off, the computer is down, we're not answering our phone. We're giving each other our undivided attention. You don't have to be sitting down. You can be taking a walk together for that matter.

And then number five is physical touch. We've long known the emotional power of physical touch. That's why we pick up babies, hold them and kiss them and cuddle them. Long before the baby understands the meaning of the word "love," the baby feels love by physical touch. So in a marriage, this would be such things as holding hands and kissing and embracing and the whole sexual part of marriage. And arm around their shoulder. Driving down the road you put your hand on their leg. You know, if they're walking by you at the house, you just trip them, you know. I'm kidding, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: I knew you were.

Gary Chapman: Let's not tell people to trip their spouse. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Trip their husbands or start fights? Yes.

Gary Chapman: But those are the five. And the basic concept is that out of those five, each of us has what I call a primary love language, that is, one of these speaks more deeply to you than the others. All of them are fine. But if you don't receive love in your primary language, you will not feel loved, even though they may be speaking some of the other languages.

Jennifer Rothschild: That makes so much sense. And I'm glad we reviewed it too. Because there are some listening who, you know, like me, have known about this for many years. But just getting the refresher, just knowing something doesn't mean we practice it. So this is a good refresher.

But I also am mindful, Gary, there's someone listening, and maybe she or he is not married or in a romantic relationship. So here's the question. Do these five love languages, do they apply also to friendships or family relationships or work colleagues?

Gary Chapman: Yes, absolutely. In fact, I wrote a book especially for single adults. It's "The 5 Love Language for Singles." And I apply this to your relationship with your parents, your siblings, your college roommates, your dating partners, your work associates.

And then I also wrote one especially for work relationships. It's called "The 5 Languages of Appreciation In The Workplace." We use the word "appreciation" because work relationships are different from home relationships or family relationships. But it's the same basic concept. And if you want people to feel appreciated at work, you have to learn which language communicates to them.

Now, we did find in the workplace, almost no one had physical touch as their primary language. Okay? And all of the HR people said, "No, no, no --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Right, right, right.

Gary Chapman: -- we don't touch at work."

Jennifer Rothschild: No. That's so funny. But that makes so much sense. Because it is, it's an avenue, it's a way to esteem someone. And, man, do we all need it, because we've all got this thing that you also call the love tank. Okay. So tell us what the love tank is. Like what fuels it, and, like, how we can make sure our love tanks stay full. Or can we even do that ourselves?

Gary Chapman: Well, it's a metaphor. You know, a gasoline tank in a car, if it's empty, you're going nowhere. I don't care how great the car is. But if it's full, you can drive a significant amount of space if the tank is full.

So I like to picture inside each of us there is an emotional love tank. And if the love tank is full, that is, you genuinely feel loved by the other person, then the relationship is wonderful and life is wonderful. But if the love tank is empty and you feel like -- for example in a marriage, you feel like they don't love me, they wish they were not married to me, life begins to look pretty dark.

And for children it's the same thing. If children don't feel loved, there's going to be a lot more misbehavior and there's going to be a lot more breaking of the discipline rules that you have for them. So keeping the love tank full is the goal. And so if you first of all learn their primary love language and you choose to speak it on a regular basis, chances are you will keep the other person's love tank full. And if they do the same for you, that's true.

We can't really fill our own love tank. Now, obviously we have -- there is a healthy love for yourself, you know, and because we care about ourselves, we take care of what we eat, and we sleep and we get exercise and those things, you know, to enhance our health. But we're really talking about love from the other person.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. This is relationship.

Gary Chapman: And if you feel love, then the love tank is full.

Jennifer Rothschild: Got it. Okay. Well, and that makes sense. Because when everybody is operating -- reminds me a lot of -- oh, I don't know where it is in Philippians 2. Early in Philippians 2, like 3, 4, or 5, where Paul tells us to consider each other almost as more important than ourselves. Not just to look out for our own needs, but for the needs of others. That's what you're talking about here, is paying attention --

Gary Chapman: Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to others' love tanks. Okay, I love that.

Now, one of the things I think about, when you're talking about this, is if our personalities -- okay? So we might have a really driven person, or an introvert or an extrovert. Okay. Our individual personalities, do they impact or influence our love languages? Is there a connection there at all?

Gary Chapman: They interface with our love languages, to be sure. For example, let's just take the extrovert or the introvert. Maybe their language is words of affirmation. But an introvert wants to hear those words in a private setting.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Gary Chapman: An extrovert would like for you to brag on them in front of other people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes. That makes so much sense.

Gary Chapman: So that's the way that personality interfaces with the love language. And if you don't take into account their personality -- you know, you're serious and you're genuinely communicating love, and they appreciate it, but they can also be embarrassed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. You just -- you have no idea. You just described my husband and me. Because even though I have a public ministry, I am an introvert. And he's very kind with words of affirmation, but when he does it in public, I about die. I just can't stand it. He does not mean that. He thinks he's esteeming me, which, of course, he is.

Gary Chapman: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I get this. But I've never really thought about that interface. That's so fascinating. Whereas, I'm married to the extrovert, and if I give him word of affirmation, I better do it on a microphone at a party, and he'll hear it really loud.

Gary Chapman: You got it, girl.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, man. Okay. That's so interesting.

Okay. So you also talk about, in your book, that each love language has its own dialect and tactic.

Gary Chapman: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So give us some examples of that. Like, how do we make this abstract into concrete here?

Gary Chapman: Well, let's take -- let's take words of affirmation, for example. I described them briefly. It's just simply giving affirming words to the other person. But also -- here are, for example, three dialects in terms of speaking words of affirmation. One is words of encouragement.

You know, your spouse says, "Honey, I've been thinking about starting a podcast or writing an article, you know, for a magazine." And your spouse says, "Well, tell me about that, Honey." And so you tell them about it, and they say, "You know, I think you would be good at that. Yeah, I really think -- you obviously have something to say. I think you'd be good at that." That is encouragement. They're giving him words of encouragement, and they probably will write that article or start that podcast. Because if this is their language especially, you're giving them words of encouragement.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Gary Chapman: And then another dialect is expressing appreciation for what they're doing. It's saying to the person that cooked the meal, "You know, Honey, I don't always tell you this, but I really appreciate all the meals you fix for us. You're a wonderful cook." You know, it's just looking for things about the person that you can genuinely express appreciation for.

And then another dialect is giving compliments. Something about maybe their personality. Just say, "You know, one of the things I just really like about you is your smile. When you smile, you are so beautiful." But it's giving compliments to the other person.

So those are three dialects within the framework of words of affirmation. And so it's really important not only to know a person's love language, but also to know which of those dialects is the most important for them. For example, words of affirmation is my language, it's my primary language. But the dialect that speaks to me most deeply is when my wife gives me appreciation. Because I do a lot of stuff for her because her language is acts of service. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, right. Okay.

Gary Chapman: So I vacuum floors and wash dishes and take out the trash. And when she tells me that I'm the greatest husband in the world, oh, man, my love tank fills up.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good example. Because I'm also words of affirmation. That is my primary. And it's interesting, when my husband encourages me, man, I come to life. I appreciate compliments, but, I mean, I don't really care if my hair looks nice. But if you -- I mean, I do care. But you know what I mean.

Gary Chapman: Yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That doesn't meet my needs. And I've never thought about that, but that's so interesting that we need to even dig deeper and learn these dialects. I really appreciate that, Gary.

Gary Chapman: Yeah. And I think that's what this new book is going to do. That's why I'm really excited about it. Because in the original book, I just mention dialects, but I didn't talk about what they were. But in the new book, we're talking about -- in all the five languages, we're talking about the different dialects within that language.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and what's interesting is, if that's not your native language, you need that guidance. You know, if you want to speak that language to someone else, you need the guidance of, okay, so it's not just words of affirmation, it's here's a way I can do that, you know. And sometimes we need that concrete path. So I appreciate that.

---

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, so I'm going to tell you about a certain elevator in the student center at Palm Beach Atlantic University. That's the university where Phil, my husband, and I graduated. Okay. We call it the kissing elevator because, yep, that is exactly what happened there.

Almost every Thursday night of my senior year, Phil would be on his way to a student government meeting and I would be on my way upstairs to the campus Bible study where I led worship. And wouldn't you know, we would end up in the same elevator at the same time most Thursday nights. So the doors would close, we would kiss on the way up [Kissing Sound], doors would open, and off we went to our meetings. So I've got some really fun and fond memories from my time at Palm Beach Atlantic University.

But I have something even better, a Christ centered, excellent education that prepared me for life, career, and ministry. Palm Beach Atlantic University equips students to grow in wisdom, lead with conviction, and serve God boldly. You need to check it out, because it also equips students, obviously, to find creative ways to use elevators. All right.

Go to 413podcast.com/PBA to learn more. And now let's get back to the podcast.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Let's go to some other details, very practical details that you deal with in the book, like empathy. Okay? So what does it mean to be a good listener, and how do we know when we should, like, show our thoughts or just be quiet and listen?

Gary Chapman: Well, you know, by nature some of us are listeners and some of us are talkers. I mean --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Gary Chapman: There are people that I call babbling brooks. They just talk all the time, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Gary Chapman: And there are others that I call dead seas, which means they can just have everything in their mind and have no compulsion to share, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Gary Chapman: And often they marry each other. But -- and nothing wrong with either one of those. Those are basic personality traits.

But I do think that there's a difference between just listening to someone and listening with empathy. Empathy means that as they talk, you're trying to look at the world through their eyes. You're not necessarily sitting there thinking about what you can tell them, but you're trying to -- maybe later, but you're trying right now to understand what they're saying and what they're feeling, what their perspective is whatever the topic.

So, you see, by nature we tend to -- if a person makes a statement of any kind, we come back to either agree with it or disagree with it. We say, "Well, Honey, I don't think that's right. I mean, I think you're looking at that the wrong way." And people get into arguments over that. But if they share something that maybe strikes you as not being right, rather than coming back with an answer, you say, "Well, Honey, explain that to me a little bit. I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying."

And you keep asking questions so that eventually you can say, "Oh, now I see how that can make sense." It doesn't mean you necessarily agree with it. But when you listen to them and you keep asking questions about what stimulated them to think that way or feel that way, you can honestly say, "You know, Honey, I can see how that makes sense. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Gary Chapman: Then you can give your perspective, you know, "Would you like to hear my thought on that?" you know. And now if they listen to you with empathy, they're going to be able to say, "Well, I can see your perspective also."

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and interesting, Gary, because you prefaced even that with a question, "Would you like to hear my thoughts on that?"

Gary Chapman: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because sometimes the answer is, "No, I don't. Thank you."

Gary Chapman: Yeah, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which doesn't necessarily end well. But I'm just saying, sometimes you're not ready to hear the thought, and it's very respectful to ask.

Gary Chapman: Yeah, absolutely. We all should have to -- should learn how to develop the art of asking questions. So whenever somebody's talking, we want to come back with a question. And by nature, many of us, when somebody shares something with us, they'll say, "Well, you know, my grandmother had that same disease," and, you know, we go off on grandmother.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Gary Chapman: Well, look, they're sharing their heart with you. You know, their mother has cancer or whatever. Far better to say, you know, "Tell me about it. How long has it been going on? And how is it affecting her or him, you know, in terms of their behavior and that sort of thing." Now they get the sense you care about them, you want to know the details of what they're sharing. Because they're sharing it because they need to share it with somebody. You know, they're struggling, they're hurting over what's happening in this other person's life.

So rather than jumping off in your grandmother who had the similar thing, keep asking questions and show them that you're concerned. And you can eventually say, "Is there anything, you know, that you think I might do? I know I don't know them, but anything you think I might do?" and now they realize, well, what you really care, you've heard them out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. And it's so other centered, which is, you know, counterintuitive, sadly, for most of us, me included. But what a good discipline and what a Christ-centered discipline to be other centered that way. Okay, I love that.

And it isn't natural, I get that. For a lot of us, it is not natural. Because sometimes when -- I have a family member who calls me to unload. I'm the family unloader. And when they call me to unload, I am quick to fix. I'm telling them, do this, do this, and then literally next day they don't do a thing and I'm so frustrated. And I realize it's because they don't want me to fix it, they just needed to talk.

Gary Chapman: Yeah, that's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm learning to ask, "Well, how do you feel about that?" and then say, "That's interesting. How do you feel about that?" you know. And it's -- you're right. But it's a hard discipline. But it's not about me, it's about them. So that's a really good reminder. Maybe this conversation, 4:13ers, is just for me and Gary, so thanks for tuning in. But it's really helpful to me, and I know it's helpful to so many.

So let's stay on empathy, because I know in your book you talk about -- well, in fact, I just want you to unpack, what does it mean to be fluent, faltering, frustrated, or frozen in showing empathy?

Gary Chapman: Well, I think a lot depends on our personality. You know, sometimes we listen to a person talk and we have no response. You know, we're just -- we're just kind of frozen, we just -- we just listen and let them talk. Maybe we nod our heads or say, "Uh-huh." But because we don't ask questions, they don't have the sense that we're really even hearing them. And we really can walk away and ten minutes later we forgot what they said, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Gotcha.

Gary Chapman: So I think the whole thing of empathy -- it starts in the heart really. Because as you mentioned earlier, Jesus said about himself, the Son of Man didn't come to be served; we came to serve. And he's our model, and we're to have the same attitude toward people.

And so when it comes to empathy, we have to not, first of all, be frozen and not have any response, and we have to be, as we've already talked about, not giving them a response that jumps off into some other topic. Or also, not giving a response that says, Let me fix this for you. Let me tell you -- you know what I think you ought to do? Da, da, da, da, da, da, da, you know.

And so empathy is first of all trying to see the world through their eyes and affirming their thoughts and their feelings. You know, "I can see how you could think that and I can see how you could feel that way. That makes a whole lot of sense." And then you can say, you know, "Is there anything that I might do that would be helpful to you?"

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. So good.

Gary Chapman: Now they really feel heard. And that's what -- if we're hurting and we choose to speak to people, whether it's a spouse or some other close friend, we're sharing because we need somebody -- to feel that somebody cares about me and what I'm going through.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I know there's some listening who are like, okay, this is either new to me or I need a refresher. So as they're hearing your speaking about it, they're thinking, okay, what is my love language? And so you -- and this is why we're having this conversation. You have this new assessment for love language. So tell us about The 5 Love Language premium assessment, and how is it different from that free quiz that we can all take?

Gary Chapman: Yeah. Incidentally, my publisher that runs that website told me that 165 million people have taken that free quiz.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Gary Chapman: Which is very, very encouraging.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is.

Gary Chapman: But what we're doing with the new quiz -- and the new quiz is not free. You have to pay for it. That's why it says premium. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Gary Chapman: But what it does is not only give you your primary, secondary, you know, love language like that, but it also tells you, in your primary language, here is your primary dialect. There might be two or three or four dialects in speaking this particular language, but here's the one that's most important to you. And that is very insightful about yourself.

And when you're sharing this information with your partner, for example, in a marriage, man, it's really important to know not only the language, but also the dialect within that language that's most important, and then what's the second most important.

So that gives you that information about yourself when you take the quiz. It also gives you your personality and information on how the personality then impacts the speaking of the love language, which we alluded to earlier in our talking earlier. So that's why I'm really excited about this premier assessment, because it's going to give you information that you didn't necessarily have before, the dialect and also how the personality interfaces with that.

And that's one thing that motivated us to write the new book, because the new book goes along with the premium assessment, and it lists -- the new book lists all the dialects on each of these things and all. So you get exposed to the idea even before you take the premium assessment. Or you can take the assessment first and then read the book. Either way, you're going to find it helpful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I did it and I thought it was so helpful and very insightful, and I loved it. My husband has not yet taken it. It's interesting. I kind of wonder what his is going to be, because I wonder if -- you know, how well I understand him. So I just -- I highly recommend it. And what a great way to just love each other well, you know, and learn more about yourself and more about your partner, more about your friends, your work colleagues, your people. Your people.

Gary Chapman: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right, so, Gary, we're going to get to our last question here. All right? And I want Pastor Gary, Counselor Gary right now. Because someone is listening and they're loving this. They're like, oh, my gosh, this is so insightful. And I love it, but I don't love how I feel right now, because suddenly I just understand why my love tank is empty and why I feel so empty and alone and isolated, or whatever their fill-in-the-blank word is.

All right. So we can't control someone else and help them fill our love tank always. So what can they do right now, you know, to finish up this opportunity and feel loved and kind of manage this emotion that they might be grappling with?

Gary Chapman: Yeah. I think what I would say to that person is remember, love starts with an attitude, not a feeling. And so think also in terms of how -- if you feel unloved, ask yourself, "I wonder how my spouse feels. I wonder how much love they feel."

And you could say to your spouse, "You know, I heard this conversation today on a podcast I was listening to, and it talked about everybody having a different love language, and that if you don't speak their love language, they don't really feel loved. And I got to thinking about us and I wonder if I'm speaking your love language. I wonder -- you know, like maybe on a scale of 0 to 10, how much love do you feel coming from me?" And let them give you a number. And then if it's a low number, you say, "Now, tell me why that would be."

And they say, "Well, you know, I don't ever hear any words of affirmation from you," or, "You're always complaining. I feel like I never do satisfy you." They may not use the word "affirmation" because they hadn't heard of the program --

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, sure, sure.

Gary Chapman: -- but they say, "I just don't feel appreciated by you, you know. It just feels like everything I do is never enough for you." Wow. They're giving you valuable information.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Gary Chapman: They're telling you that words of affirmation is their language and they're not getting it. They're getting the opposite from you. And then you say, "Oh, I need to -- tell me more about that. I want to understand this, because I really -- in my heart, I love you, but obviously it's not coming across that way."

So what I'm saying is you start with focusing on your spouse. Because if you do this, I can almost guarantee you they're going to come back -- maybe in that same conversation, or maybe tomorrow, they're going to come back and say, "You know, we talked about that love language thing yesterday, and I'm wondering what your love language is and how much love, on a scale of 0 to 10, do you feel from me?" And you can say, "Well, Honey, to be honest, it's probably about a 4." "Well, why would you say that?" And then you tell them why. Because, you know, you realize now they're not speaking your language, whatever your language is. So you can open up the conversation.

But, see, most people start with themselves and they say, "I heard this program about love languages, and I realize you're not speaking my love language." Oh, man. Now you're just driving a wedge between the two of you. No. Always start with the other person. And that's why the title of this new book is "The Love Language That Matters Most." And what is that love language? The love language of the other person. That's where you want to start. And love stimulates love. If they see you really concerned about speaking their love language, I can almost guarantee you it's going to turn their heart toward you.

Jennifer Rothschild: You heard what Gary said. Don't start with an agenda. Start with an attitude of humility. You know, that's what love starts with. It starts with an attitude, not a feeling. So if you might happen to feel unloved, think about how the other person may feel. I mean, just have enough courage to ask them, "Am I speaking your love language?" Like, how much love do you feel coming from me right now, and why?

KC Wright: It makes so much sense. If we start with focusing on the other, they will likely eventually do the same. And we want to be like Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: He came to serve, not to be served.

Well, this is so good. And I am glad this love language concept transfers to our kids, our friends, and all of our relationships. So even if you think you know this stuff after hearing this conversation, you know you need to read the book. And you can win one right now. Go to Jennifer's Instagram to enter to win a copy, @jennRothschild. And pop over to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/389 to read a full transcript and get links to Gary's books and Jennifer's songs, which you are about to hear.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep. You know, KC, I actually wrote this song for a wedding way back in the day.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: It wasn't my wedding, but it was somebody else's wedding. But, of course, Phil, my stud husband, was the person who was on my mind when I wrote it. So it is called "Through The Seasons," and it's just going to be a sweet way to end this podcast.

So enjoy and get ready for next week, because speaking of love, we have a C.S. Lewis scholar on next week talking about the friendship between C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, and you do not want to miss it. All right, see you next week.

(Singing) In the spring of our romance, I offer my heart, true as the morning, tender as the lark. Along with the hatchlings, we'll test out our wings and welcome the season our promise will bring.

Through the seasons I love you, through the seasons we'll soar, through the seasons I'll cherish you till the seasons come no more.

On the long days of summer, we'll fashion a nest, dance 'neath the raindrops and ride ocean crest. Each day like the solstice, in sunlight we'll sing and soar over valleys with hope on our wings.

Through the seasons I love you, through the seasons we'll soar, through the seasons I'll cherish you till the seasons come no more.

When the autumn wind blows in, I'll dress you in gold, while leaves fall around us and birds leave the fold. Plenty the harvest, yet empty the nest, still we'll gaze toward the heavens for we have been blessed. And when winter chill finds us and crowns us with snow, we will warm by the fire and bask in its glow. The days will grow shorter, the night will come soon, but I'll always remember my seasons with you.

Through the seasons I love you, through the seasons we'll soar, through the seasons I'll cherish you till the seasons come no more.

Through the seasons I love you, through the seasons we'll soar, through the seasons I cherish you till the seasons come no more.

Through the seasons I'll cherish you till the seasons come no more.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Live Like Heaven Is Real? With Philip De Courcy [Episode 388]

Philip De Courcy: Our aspiration should be heaven. A man was asked one day, you know, "Do you expect to get to heaven?" He said, "I already live there." And there's that sense that I've got to have heaven on my mind. Heaven can't wait. It's not just a destination -- which it is, we started the broadcast -- it's a place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Philip De Courcy: But it's an orientation. It's a mindset. And as a Christian, I've got to bring that mindset to everything I ought to do. It's an aspiration. It's a longing. It should shape my thinking. It should affect the way I think about money, right? Because my treasure is in heaven. It should affect the way I pray, because we're told to pray, "Your Kingdom come." It should affect the way I sorrow and suffer because my suffering is not to be compared to the glory that awaits me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sometimes when we think of heaven, we might imagine, you know, like, chubby cherubs and pearly gates and glowing halos and endless, endless, endless singing. But if that is all that heaven really is, what hope and relevance does it even have for us today? Well, fortunately, a biblical view of eternity can give us far more, way more.

So today's guest, author and pastor Philip De Courcy, is going to reveal the impact that a heavenly mindset can have on your everyday, right now life. You are going to hear engaging stories -- with, by the way, the most lovely Irish accent -- you're going to get theological insights, and, best of all, you are going to get a deep knowledge of Scripture. So let's get a very clear understanding of our inheritance so that we can live the hope of heaven right now.

Here we go, KC.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: That is my Seeing Eye Guy, my friends, KC Wright, with a little bit of sinuses going on. Did you notice? Our friends who have known you for a while --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- they heard just a little bit.

KC Wright: A little bit.

Jennifer Rothschild: A little bit. I think it makes you sound manly.

KC Wright: Oh, thank you. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Anyway, I'm Jennifer, and I'm here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. And it's just two friends here in the closet, with one topic -- one of my favorites, by the way -- and zero stress, because we are talking about heaven.

KC Wright: Ooh.

Jennifer Rothschild: I've written a Bible study on heaven. You know it's one of my favorite subjects.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: (Singing) Heaven.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's not just for someday; it's for this day. So you're going to love hearing from Philip De Courcy.

But before you do, you've got to hear from my friend KC, because he and I have been talking, talking, talking. I finally said, "You just need to stop" --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we need to tell our friends, Because what you do not know, my people, over the holidays -- well, right before Christmas --

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and then we've had holidays -- it's been busy -- KC went to Vietnam on a mission trip. So besides all the beautiful spiritual fruit -- okay, you know the man. It's funny.

All right. So let's start -- tell them why you went to Vietnam. Give us just a brief overview of the beautiful spiritual fruit. But, like, I just want us to go to the funny things like you getting your suit tailored and how you preached and what they ate. All right, go.

KC Wright: Okay. Loved it, loved it, loved it. It was a trip of a lifetime. Ten days in Vietnam. The flight over there is a humdinger. Sixteen hours --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- from Los Angeles to Hong Kong. Then, wait, you're hopping on another plane to go to Hi Chi Minh City. Anyway, it was magical, it was phenomenal. One hundred said yes to Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah.

KC Wright: Yes. You know, with me, everything is a comedy show.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

KC Wright: I mean, there's just never a boring moment in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you preached?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you had an interpreter?

KC Wright: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you didn't wear normal clothes when you preached, evidently?

KC Wright: So it is custom over there, you do not enter the House of the Lord with shoes on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Well, I love that idea.

KC Wright: So you must be in socks. Now, if I would have known that I was going to be preaching in socks, I would have packed some nicer socks, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: I mean, I just packed some boring socks because I didn't think anybody was going to be looking at my feet. But they are so sweet over there. I love them so much. They love to laugh. The Vietnamese love to laugh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, no wonder they love you, because you're funny.

KC Wright: So we connected instantly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: So you would kind of tell a one-liner, like, "Hey, good thing I'm leaving Tuesday because I've ate my weight in mango." And then the interpreter would repeat that and then the church would laugh, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's funny.

KC Wright: And then some of the pastors found out that I was single, and they were trying to find me a wife in the congregation.

Jennifer Rothschild: A little cute Vietnamese wife.

KC Wright: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But you didn't come home with a wife?

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: You came home with a suit though?

KC Wright: I did.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Tell us about the suit.

KC Wright: So it is a tradition with a lot of people -- and I just learned this -- that when you go over there, make sure you get fitted for a suit. Because a suit there, probably valued with U.S. dollars is over $1,000, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: But you can get a suit there for $100.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's amazing. And they're amazing seamstresses.

KC Wright: They're beautiful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Right. So I got fitted for a suit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: I ate things I never thought I would eat.

Jennifer Rothschild: Like?

KC Wright: A lot of -- I watched a lot of people eat snail. I never did that. They were popping snail like I pop popcorn. Not this guy.

But I love the Vietnamese coffee. I brought J.R. home some coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. And some Vietnamese tea --

KC Wright: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- I'm very excited about. I haven't even opened it yet because I'm still eating my way through Christmas leftovers and gifts, like chocolate and coffees from that. So I haven't even opened your Vietnamese yet.

KC Wright: Another sweet thing they did is every time I would preach, they would present me with a bouquet of flowers. Well, you know, as a guy, no one's ever given me flowers.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's beautiful.

KC Wright: You just don't do that here. But they want to honor you and love you with a bouquet of flowers.

They're so hungry for the Word of God. They worship like I've never seen people worship before. The children stand in the aisles of the church, hands lifted, weeping and crying. The hunger for God is incredible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: So God is moving in Vietnam, and I will go back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you will.

KC Wright: They love to laugh, I love to laugh; they love Jesus, I love Jesus. But next time I'm bringing an empty suitcase to bring back more treasures for the people that I love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? Well, and who knows, you might need another suit.

KC Wright: Yeah. Right.

And one thing, one last thing. Like I said, my life is never boring. But when we were coming back into the country, we got through customs again. And when we hit security, of all the people's tickets to get flagged, mine got flagged.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no.

KC Wright: So I got pulled into the back. My team actually --

Jennifer Rothschild: But the way -- and which country was this?

KC Wright: This was in Vietnam.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: I was leaving Vietnam.

Jennifer Rothschild: So you're in the Ho Chi Minh City airport?

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: And I'm leaving. Yeah. So my entire team moves forward, but I'm being held back. My team was concerned. I was covered with the peace of God. Anyway, long story short --

Jennifer Rothschild: Why'd they pull you over?

KC Wright: Because I had an iPad and a ridiculous amount of magnets I bought for family and friends, and the magnets with the iPad was triggering the alarm, whatever it was, saying that there was a battery in my bag. Anyway, they laughed --

Jennifer Rothschild: Only KC.

KC Wright: -- they laughed it off and sent me back to my group. But when I returned to my group, I'm telling you, they were having a prayer meeting. They thought KC's going down.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

KC Wright: This is the end for him.

Jennifer Rothschild: He's going straight from --

KC Wright: They thought I was being interrogated, but it was just magnets and an iPad.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, that makes so much sense.

KC Wright: Once again, never boring in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Never boring. Never boring.

KC Wright: But I can't wait to go back.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I can't wait to see you in your nice new suit.

KC Wright: Yes, I'm going to wear it on Easter Sunday and preach.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, you're going to look so nice. A man in a good suit, that's a good look. That's what I'm saying.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I remember when Phil and I were dating, and he worked at the university and they had to still at that point wear, like, tie and -- I just thought he was so cute in his tie and his dress shirts and his suits. Mmm. Anyway...

KC Wright: You got to look sharp.

Jennifer Rothschild: You got to look sharp, that's right. A man in a suit is a good thing.

All right. Well, let's get on to this conversation with Philip, because, oh, my goodness, you know this -- because this is one of my favorite subjects. But I love this guy. He is charming. He just has the joy. When I got to go to Ireland, there's just a lightness and a joy just as a culture. He's got it. You can hear it in his voice. Anyway...

So let's introduce Philip De Courcy.

KC Wright: Philip De Courcy is the senior pastor of Kindred Community Church and a dynamic speaker on the national media program "Know The Truth." Born in Belfast, Northern Ireland, Philip became an engineer and also spent six years as a reserve police officer in North Belfast, where civil tension and terrorism were commonplace. After being called to full-time ministry, he pastored a church just outside of Belfast and then came to the United States where he graduated from the Master's Seminary and served in churches in Southern California and Central Ohio. He and his wife, June, have three grown daughters and one son-in-law.

Okay. Get ready for a great conversation. And you are going to love his accent.

Jennifer Rothschild: You will.

KC Wright: So here we go.

Jennifer Rothschild: So let's start with this, Philip: definition. Because so many people have so many different definitions of what heaven is. So tell me, what is heaven?

Philip De Courcy: Yeah. Well, before we go there, Jennifer, thank you for having me on the program. I appreciate you, your ministry. I know you've written on this subject yourself, and so I'm glad you've added to the church's knowledge of what lies ahead.

In terms of a definition of heaven, I think at the baseline, heaven's a place. In some sense, heaven's an orientation. But at the end of the day, in John 14:1-6, Jesus tells us, "I go to prepare a place for you." And I think we need to, you know, nail that one down to the floor. I think people think that heaven's a mindset, heaven's an experience on earth perhaps. But biblically, heaven is a place.

Paul talks about the third heaven, which I think is the heaven where God dwells and where the departed live until a new heaven and a new earth. And I think it's something we need to underscore. I think throughout church history at times, the church has been affected by Greek philosophy rather than biblical theology, where there was a discounting of the body, a discounting of the material, where things are ethereal and spiritual. But ultimately, heaven is a place where God dwells, where his throne is, where the angels abide and serve God, where departed souls of the saints are with God. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

And then ultimately -- let me get into this, Jennifer. I think this is something I wanted to get in towards the end of the book when I talk about the new heaven and the new earth ultimately. So there's a present heaven right now. And in some senses, we could say it's a temporary heaven, because the ultimate heaven and the eternal experience of God's people will be back on earth, according to Revelation 21 to 22, where God will renew this earth, remake it, and we will be back on this earth in a resurrected body, exploring it, enjoying God. Almost Eden restored, Eden regained.

So I'll stop there. But fundamentally, heaven's a place where God resides, where the saints will dwell. It's a place marked by peace, joy, holiness, by the affluent presence of God and his glory, and it's a place I want to get to sooner than later.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. The more you know about it, the more you understand why Paul says, "I long to be there." I long to be there.

Philip De Courcy: It's better, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, it's better.

Philip De Courcy: It's better to be with Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's better.

So here's the question, Pastor. Because what I heard you say is there is a present heaven. And I know, you know, people smarter than us call it the intermediate state. And then there's the eternal state of that, like, forever heaven of the new earth. But what does that mean for someone right now who just lost someone they love? They were a believer in Christ, they were in Christ, and they just died. So where are they right now, and are they alive in that place?

Philip De Courcy: Yeah. I deal with that in a chapter in the book. I call it "During the Interval." That is the interval between now and the eternal state of the world to come. And Paul addresses that. If someone's listening today, my heart breaks for you as your heart breaks. And it's not unspiritual to weep. It's not unspiritual to ache for the presence of a loved one. Paul doesn't dismiss that in 1 Thessalonians 4 when he addresses those who have loved ones who have fallen asleep in Jesus. But he would remind them, "We sorrow, but not as those without hope." And then towards the end of that Chapter 4, verse 18, "Comfort one another with these words."

So that's the beauty. We will sorrow, we feel the sting and the thievery of death in this present experience. But as Christians, if we're in Christ, if we have embraced the Gospel of Christ's atoning death and Christ's physical resurrection and him as the only mediator between God and man, then we have hope in the Gospel because Jesus is the resurrection and the life, and though a man die, yet shall he live.

Jennifer, I love that story about D.L. Moody, the Billy Graham before there was a Billy Graham. And he said to his congregation one day in Chicago, "Someday you're going to read in the papers that D.L. Moody is dead. Don't believe it. D.L. Moody will be more alive than he's ever been before."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: So to your question are our loved ones alive, yes. And sadly, there's a dark side to that. The dead are alive whether with Christ or without Christ, whether in heaven or in hell. There's a consciousness. There's an eternal conscious punishment for those who rejected Christ and trembled underfoot the blood of the cross, but there's an eternal conscious joy for those who are in Christ.

In the chapter -- we'll not get into the depth of this, but I'll hopefully whet the appetite. Whereas -- my mother died just a couple of years ago and it got me thinking a lot more about heaven. And she's with the Lord. So Paul talks in 2 Corinthians 5 quickly about three states. He talks about we're clothed. That's our present existence. We've got a body and we've got a soul. The body is subject to death, the soul is eternal. And when we die, there's a separation takes place where the body is put to rest in the grave. The cemetery means a place of sleeping. The body is kind of laid down like someone's sleeping to be resurrected.

The spirit goes to be with Christ. Absent from the body at death, present --immediately present. We don't believe in soul sleep, we don't believe in purgatory, we don't believe in some intermediate existence. It's earth to heaven or it's earth to hell. And that's the reality Jesus talks about, right? Two roads, two destinies, Matthew 7.

But you go from being clothed with the body to being unclothed. So I believe our loved ones are in -- their spirits are with Christ. Some theologians wonder, are they given a temporary body? I'm not going to fight that, but I don't see that. I don't see that promised anywhere. I think Paul says we're unclothed, we're naked. So the spirit is with Christ. And again, that doesn't mean they're less than what they were. Our identity's certainly tied to our corporality, but it is not the fullness of who we are. And God is spirit, without a body, until the incarnations, and God's real. So you can be in a real state as a spirit.

And then they'll be clothed again or clothed further. That's when Jesus returns with those who the spirits that are with him, perfected and returns, and their bodies are resurrected, 1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15, and now they're in that perfect state.

So long answer, but, hey, our loved ones are alive.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We need that.

Philip De Courcy: If they're in Christ, they're with Christ. And they are enjoying his presence and they've no desire to come back, they have simply a desire for us to join them.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I've often thought how Lazarus must have felt when Jesus called out Lazarus, "Come forth." I wonder if he thought, No. Really? Don't make me.

Philip De Courcy: It's true --

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't make me come back.

Philip De Courcy: -- you know. That's a great thought. And he came back to die again --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

Philip De Courcy: -- you know. Poor man had to die twice.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: But again, a wonderful illustration of what we will enjoy. But it's a good thought. You know, it's a bit like -- again, Paul got a taste -- right? -- of heaven and saw things that no man should see. And you can sense, you know, the struggle as God humbled him back on earth, waiting. And in some sense when Paul says it's far better --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: -- he should know because he got a peek.

Jennifer Rothschild: He should. He did. He did.

Well, and what's interesting to me is -- you know, as I ask you these questions about heaven, I'm reflecting a lot, of course, of what the believer in Christ wonders about heaven. But here's the thing, Pastor. You write in your book that most people, humanity in general, has this innate belief in heaven. So talk to us about that. Because it's not just believers in Christ who thinks there's something that comes next. You contend that all humanity does.

Philip De Courcy: Absolutely. I talk about that in a chapter on John 14. You know, it's innate to the human nature. There's a desire for a heavenly state. There's a sense that this can't be it. There's a James Bond movie called "The World is Not Enough," and I've always kind of been -- you know, thought about that titling. People know this world is not enough. It's not.

And in the book I talk about three things that kind of fuel our desire for heaven and inform it. It's God's Word to us. Thankfully God has pulled back the curtain. I mean, 25% of the Bible is prophetic. The Bible is historic, but it's also prophetic. God wants us to understand there's a world beyond this world.

One of the striking words in the Book of Revelation is "behold" or "see." God wants us to see something beyond what our eyes can view, right? We walk by faith, not by sight. So God's Word to us fuels that. Where we read the Scriptures, the God who came from heaven wants us to be with him in heaven, and he helps us see something of what we can look forward to.

Then there's God's witness in us. The Holy Spirit has been given to us, according to Jesus, as an engagement ring, a sign of, hey, the bridegroom -- I'm coming back for my bride, and the spirit within you causes you to desire heaven and desire me.

And then as I've said, God's world around us. This is a fallen world. It's a sin-cursed world, it's marked by death, it's less than what it was. And we know innately Ecclesiastes 3, God has put eternity in our heart. You and I were talking before the broadcast here about my upbringing in Belfast. C.S. Lewis, he -- I'm paraphrasing. But somewhere C.S. Lewis talks about if we have got desires that can't be fulfilled in this life, it's got to be a harbinger or a telltale that maybe we're made for something more than this life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: And the world around us -- I was going to say I love it. I appreciate Romans 8. We groan longing for the liberation.

And so God's Word to us, God's witness in us, God's world around us. But it all fuels this sense that, hey, there's a life beyond this life. That's why I call the book "Life After Life."

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I love, by the way. I love that phrase, "Life After Life."

And, you know, Pastor, as you describe that too, speaking of your kindred, C.S. Lewis from Belfast, he also talks about just these desires that we feel, as you quoted, but he talks about, like, a baby doesn't have a -- a baby's hunger doesn't mean necessarily that baby's going to be fed immediately, but it's a representation that food exists. And so as we've got this ache in this life for something more, it represents that something more exists. Even that groan of the beauty of this world, it's an imperfect beauty, but it makes us ache for more. So, yeah, it's all this -- they're all pointing. They're pointing to the reality.

Philip De Courcy: That's why the New Testament talks about looking, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: I mean, the first chapter in my book is called "Heaven Can't Wait," and it's based on -- all my chapters are based on an exposition of a passage because I'm committed to biblical exposition. It's Colossians 3:1-4. Seek those things that are above. Set your affection. You know, Jennifer, our longing, our aspiration should be heaven.

A man was asked one day, you know, "Do you expect to get to heaven?" He said, "I already live there." And there's that sense that I've got to have heaven on my mind. Heaven can't wait. It's not just a destination -- which it is, we started the broadcast -- it's a place.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Philip De Courcy: But it's an orientation. It's a mindset. And as a Christian, I've got to bring that mindset to everything I ought to do. It's an aspiration, it's a longing. It should shape my thinking. It should affect the way I think about money -- right? -- because my treasure is in heaven. It should affect the way I pray because we're told to pray, "Your kingdom come." It should affect the way I sorrow and suffer because my suffering is not to be compared to the glory that awaits me.

And it should affect my appetite. I mean, Philippians 3:17-21, Paul talks about, you know, there are those whose God is their -- their belly is their God. They've got earthly appetites. But we don't. We desire the heavenly, the lasting, the eternal. It should affect the way we bury our dead. 1 Thessalonians 4, "Don't sorrow." Christian funerals should be marked by dignity, mourning, but there's got to be an element of celebration. We're not like the Greeks, we're not like the Romans, we're not like the pagans where we stare into a grave, a hole, and think that's it, that's where it ends.

And then it affects the way we face persecution, because we're willing to suffer for righteousness sake knowing that God will reward us, Matthew 5:12. And I could go on, but the point is this. Heaven, while it's a destination, it's a mindset. It's something that should, you know, shape our thinking and our living.

My dad's still alive, Jennifer. He's 92. He's a deacon, was a deacon for many -- he's not a preacher. But I heard my father preach a message once, and I've never forgot it. Here's a verse maybe your listeners have never thought much about. I don't know if you've reflected on this. It's Jeremiah 51:50, where the exiles of Israel who were in Babylon were told this as they worship and prayed towards Jerusalem. There's a little phrase that says, "Let Jerusalem come into your mind." And my father preached that very devotionally one day at my church in Ohio. And he said, "There's coming a new Jerusalem and a new world, and we've got to let Jerusalem come into our mind."

We're exiles. We're pilgrims. And I'm bothered -- maybe a subject you and I can talk about briefly. Why is it, Jennifer, the church doesn't let Jerusalem come into its mind? Why aren't we thinking more about heaven than we do? What's your own thoughts on that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, I think part of it is we hesitate because that which we don't have certain knowledge about, we avoid because we don't like uncertainty. But the thing is, Pastor, we can have -- we may not have perfect knowledge about heaven -- I'm sorry, I got that wrong. Well, we don't have perfect knowledge. If we can't figure out all the answers to our questions, we avoid thinking about it. But we can have certain knowledge. Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place."

So unfortunately, I think sometimes we are all so committed to self-preservation, we don't want to think about death because we don't get to heaven until we die or until Jesus returns. We get too attached to the things of this earth, we get too involved in what's relevant and what's about me. And when you really think about it -- well, let me tell you this, Pastor. Okay, let me just say this.

When I first started studying heaven myself, the Lord really revealed to me that the reason I wanted to go there was very self-centered. I missed my dad. My dad died. I happen to be blind. My vision -- I will see, I will know, you know, I just -- I will be relieved of my suffering. So for me, heaven became this very Jennifer-centric experience, and that's why I wanted to go, until I really studied it and I realized that's not the point of heaven. Jesus is the Treasure of Heaven. It's that full union that my soul was made for. And when God began to shift my longings, I cannot desire earth more than heaven, because I know every longing I have will be fulfilled in heaven.

Philip De Courcy: That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I think -- you know, I gave you a lot right there. But I think that's part of the reason. We're so self-oriented that we just don't really clue in to -- if we really love ourselves the way Jesus loves us, then we would love heaven more, because that's where every desire is met.

Philip De Courcy: Yeah, I love that. And look, we don't want to discount the new body --

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Philip De Courcy: -- and we don't want discount to the reunion of loved one. That's held out to us as the carrot on the end of a stick. But at the end of the day, you're right. You know, one of the things about Revelation 21:22, the new heaven and the new earth, the Lamb is the light.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: I talk about the splendor of the city in my last chapter. And Christ is the splendor.

And you know what the inverse of that is? I was convicted even as you talk. On the days I don't long for heaven, there's something missing about my love for Christ. Because if I truly long for him -- and that's what Paul challenges us. For me to live is Christ, and dying is gain. And when we don't want to die, or death becomes this -- it overwhelms us, if we've got more negative thoughts about it than positive thoughts, more fear than hope, we have lost sight of Christ.

And if I'm living for Christ -- I think John Piper talked about this one day in a sermon. I heard him at the Shepherds Conference. Here's the little syllogy he puts together. If I'm living for Christ, and heaven is more Christ, then death is gain, bring it on. Bring it on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: And I want that. And I need to be in that state of looking onto Jesus, the author and finisher. Or I love -- Jude 24, is it? Looking for that mercy from heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: You know, old Vance Havner talks about -- you know, he imagines a girl standing -- it's wartime -- standing on the platform. She's longing for the train that's about to arrive. But why is she longing for the train? Because of her soldier boyfriend on the train. And we long for the world to come. We long for the kingdom to come. We long for a world without sighing, crying, and dying. But, boy, it's who's on the train. It's who's -- it's who is coming, not what is coming.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. I'm telling you, Jesus is the Treasure of Heaven.

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[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: I will never forget sitting outside Dr. Ingle's office right there in Borbe Hall at Palm Beach Atlantic University, where he helped me take my statistic exams. Now, some people call statistics "sadistics." And let me just say there is a reason for that. It was hard. And this was back in the day when computers and accessible software, they just weren't existent, or at least not what they are today.

And so being blind, I literally could not navigate all the charts and formulas to pull off statistics. So Dr. Ingles, he would sit outside his office -- because he was my stats professor -- and he would read the exam to me. He would help me navigate charts, and he would read me formulas so that I could take each of those tests. Amazing, right? Well, that professor, he perfectly captures the spirit of the university where I graduated, Palm Beach Atlantic University.

PBA is a relationally caring, academically challenging, oh, and spiritually enriching university that you need to know about for your kids and your grandkids. But can I just say this? Palm Beach Atlantic University isn't just for your kids or grandkids. It can be for you also. PBA offers online courses that you can enroll in bachelor's and master level programs that can fit your schedule, your goals, and your timeline. You got to check it out all in this amazing, caring Christian community.

So go to 413podcast.com/PBA to learn all you need to know. I promise you're going to love it, just like I know you're loving this conversation. So let's get back to it.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: But, you know, like you said, there are side benefits to heaven, of course.

Philip De Courcy: Sure. A bunch of them.

Jennifer Rothschild: A bunch of them. In fact -- yeah, Revelation is full of the "no mores" and the "no longers."

Philip De Courcy: There you go.

Jennifer Rothschild: But here's a question that I have, that you talk about in your book, and I would love for you to address this. Because when we're talking about heaven, sometimes we hear about the beauty, the benefits, and then I think it leads to the question that some of us believe that there are different levels of heaven or levels of hell. Can you address that?

Philip De Courcy: Yeah, I believe that myself. I think there are degrees of reward and there are degrees of punishment. We'll concentrate mostly on what that means for the believer. Because in my book, I have a chapter on the Judgment Seat of Christ, which I think is a lost doctrine. And Paul talks about it in 1 Corinthians 3 and he talks about it in 2 Corinthians 5 and Romans 14. But as there are degrees of joy or reward in heaven, there are degrees of punishment in hell. I believe that hell is a place. I believe -- I don't believe in annihilation, I believe in the conscious eternal punishment of the lost. That's a hard doctrine to swallow, but it's in my Bible. It fell from the lips of the greatest lover of all mankind, the Lord Jesus himself.

And if we wanted an area to think about, Jesus talks about those -- there were some cities in Israel who rejected him and his disciples. And he says, "It'll be worse for you on the day of judgment than Sodom and Gomorrah." And the point was the greater the light, the greater the damnation. We live in the -- we're post Christ's birth. We're post Christ's death, resurrection. We're post his atoning death. We're post his miracles, his displaying of his deity. God has come and centuries of ignorance have passed, and God calls all men to repent everywhere. And so it's clear there are degrees of hell.

Now, we don't want to deduce from that, well, then, you know, hell at its lightest is a heavy thing, if I can put it that way. There's no comfort in that other than it does tell us God is just. And we are all accountable for everything we did, the works we do. You know, there's that scene in Gladiator -- and sorry, it's a guy illustration. But as that started -- right, Gladiator? Maximus, the beginning of the movie they're facing the barbarian hordes, the Germans, and he says, "What we do today will echo into eternity." And that's such a good little phrase. It's in the contemporary culture, and it's true. What we do today affects our eternity.

And for the believer, according to 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, we will receive reward and the pleasure of God and the commendation of God based on the things we did in the body, whether they be good or bad. We're saved by grace, by faith alone in Christ alone. But, Jennifer, faith in Christ gets us to heaven, but our work produced by faith will determine what we receive in heaven. And it's clear, Jesus says, you know, I'm coming quickly and my reward is with me, Revelation 22:20. You can't read anything other than that.

There's going to be different rewards for different Christians, you know. Has some person had dedicated their life to the mission field, with all its attendant sacrifices and hardships? You know, are they going to get treated equal to the believer that was -- you know, we'll see them in church twice a month? They dip their toe in here and they drop a little offering the plate. But where's that passion? Where's that ongoing pursuing of Christ?

And the doctrine of the Judgment Seat of Christ is a sobering one, and that's why we've got to make it our ambition, whether absent or present, to be found pleasing to him. We've got to live, you know, coram Deo. We've got to live with that sense that I will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ. The word "appear" there is a strong Greek word. It means where our life will be made manifest. The hidden, the seen, the thought, the word, the deed, it's all going to get examined. Now, thankfully, you know, our sin has been judged.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, thankfully.

Philip De Courcy: We will not be judged for our sins, praise God. There's no condemnation to those who are in Christ. But there will be a judgment of our works. And I think there will be degrees of responsibility in the new heaven and the new earth in the reign of Christ. There's a theory, possibly our resurrected bodies may have different elements of radiance and displaying God's glory.

I think it was Pentecost, Dwight Pentecost out of Dallas Seminary, said, Look, we're all going to shine, you know, but there's 25-watt bulbs and 50-watt bulbs and 100-watt bulbs. If there's any truth to that, I want to be a 100-watt bulb.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Philip De Courcy: I want to be Daniel 12 or Matthew 13. The righteous will shine.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: So I get into that in the book on the Judgment Seat of Christ. There's several aspects to God's reward. And that should motivate us, right? There's an old -- I forget. It's an old British missionary who said we have all eternity to enjoy our rewards, but only a few years to win them. So we got to get after it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, and he deserves it.

Philip De Courcy: The lukewarmness has got to stop.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: We got to be on fire for Christ.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes. Well, and he's worthy of that. He deserves that.

Philip De Courcy: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, as I studied this -- and I'm glad you addressed it. And I want to recommend, you guys that are listening, Philip's book here, "Life After Life," because judgment seat is a question I get a lot. And you need to study this. So I want to highly recommend that you look at his book and go deeper here.

But here's what I want to say about this also. As I studied it, the more I studied, I thought, why in the world would Jesus even regard us that much that he would even care to give us rewards, like, when he is our reward? When we deserve nothing from him, that he would honor us as his joint heirs enough that he would say, I see your good works, and you've glorified your Father, and now here's your reward. That's mind blowing. So our motivation alone should be just to honor him for that kindness he shows us.

Philip De Courcy: Absolutely. And then the other side, let's not forget, we were made -- I think I'm paraphrasing something I read years ago. We're made in the image of a working God. When God put man in the Garden, he made need him to work. Tend the garden --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: -- be a coregent with me, be a steward along alongside me. The fall comes, man becomes self-centered, works for himself. We're then redeemed in Christ and we're getting back to that, hey, let's be -- we're co-heirs and joint heirs with Christ. And we want to reflect the image of God that's now being remade in Christ, and that means working. Jesus said, "My Father works and I work, and the night comes when no man shall work."

So you're right, it's -- I mean, Jesus is enough. And we're trying to think through, so, you know, what's all the purpose of this? But you go back to our original purpose in the Garden, we were made to work and subdue -- exercise dominion. So we're getting ready. The Judgment Seat of Christ reminds us we ought to be working, we ought to be serving, we ought to have a resume that will please God, because our works will follow us, which is a very interesting little phrase --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

Philip De Courcy: -- and a wonderful thing. My works will follow me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes.

Philip De Courcy: And the quality of them, the quantity of them. But while I will rest -- I talk about this in the -- what we'll do in heaven. One of the things we'll do is rest. But I don't think that means fold your arms, kick up your feet, where's the nice leather easy chair?

Jennifer Rothschild: Me neither.

Philip De Courcy: You know, it's rest from the works you once did, and find joy in them and you'll be rewarded for them. Like, God, after six days of work rested. He took -- it's good. He looked over his work and he said, "It's good." I want to get to the Judgment Seat of Christ with my life in this earth, the books are closed, and I hope there's enough there to hear the, "Well done, good and faithful servant," and I'll rest from my work.

But then I'll turn around in the new heaven and the new earth and I'll work again. And we'll be back to Eden where with God we will exercise dominion over this world. And I think Randy Alcorn -- I don't know if you touched on this, Jennifer, in your own book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Philip De Courcy: We will have dominion over the galaxies.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: Our bodies may be able to travel from place to place quickly. So it's all fascinating. The world to come is a place of work. It's not a five-star resort.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Philip De Courcy: It's a place of work where we will achieve what man failed to achieve first time around. Does that make sense?

Jennifer Rothschild: Totally. Well, and if we are really made in God's image, which we are, of course, he's a creator.

Philip De Courcy: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: He made us to create and to be creative.

Philip De Courcy: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes we associate wrongly work here on earth and work there on the new earth. Work here is sin stained. There's drive, there's failure --

Philip De Courcy: Frustrating.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, it's so draining. But that will be work that is to the glory of God and that gives us joy. So, yeah, I don't think we can compare the two because we live on a fallen planet and work here is fallen.

Philip De Courcy: And people have a mistake, right? You've touched on it. People think that work is a result of the fall and the curse. It's not.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Philip De Courcy: The curse is the frustration of it. The curse is it's less fulfilling. The curse is it can be turned towards idolatry and our own self-aggrandizement. But again, we're made in the image of a working God and, therefore, the life that God designed in a state of perfection in Eden will be returned to us in the new heaven and the new earth. And I'm glad for that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too.

Philip De Courcy: I mean, we'll be given projects, we'll build, we'll create, we'll subdue, we'll exercise dominion. It just blows apart this silly idea of, you know, the bodyless soul, you know, fluffing up a cloud as a pillow and strumming on a harp. That's not heaven. That's not even close to it. It's a caricature.

I mean, Mark Twain speaks for a generation around us where he talks about, you know, the caricature of heaven. He says heaven is like hell. Well, that's not. It's not boring, it's not tedious, it's not repetitive. It's expansive. It's glorious. I love the phrasing of Ephesians 2:6-7, where in the age to come he will show us the exceeding riches of his grace. Eternity will be a time of exhilaration and exploration, where our souls will expand increasingly in our experience of God, our knowledge of him, as he shows us and keeps on showing us the exceeding, never-ending treasure and riches of his grace. It's just phenomenal.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we'll need eternity to even begin --

Philip De Courcy: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- to absorb a tenth of it.

Philip De Courcy: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you just talked about the potential of our glorified, resurrected bodies on the new earth, so let's go there. Because according to Scripture, we don't know exactly what it will be like, but we do know we will be like him when we see him as he is. Okay. So what is the hope of heaven? What does heaven's hope tell us about our earthly bodies even now?

Philip De Courcy: Yeah, I love it. I have a chapter in the book called "The New You." And I begin it with kind of this analogy -- and if you go back to maybe a high school retreat or a reunion and the years have passed and you see someone and you go -- you don't say it to their face, unless you just want to get whacked on the nose, but you might say in your mind, man, they're a shadow of their former selves. You know, boy, they have changed. They have aged. You know?

But if you flip that, when you and I look into each other's face as the saints of God, we are a shadow of our future selves. You know, 1 Corinthians 15:35-48 describes the transformation that's going to take place. I love Philippians 3:20-21 where, you know, we're waiting for Jesus to come when he will transform our vile body. The Old King James. I grew up on that. And I'm not going to run from that, because the Greek word carries the idea that this present body, ultimately -- if you're in your 30s, your 40s or 50s, whatever. But as you get up into your 60s and 70s and 80s and gravitation takes its toll and all of that, you begin to see what Paul's talking about.

We have a body that will ultimately humiliate us, that will ultimately deteriorate. And there's a vileness and an ugliness. I've been there as a pastor, have seen the ravages of cancer and how it can leave a body in a very ugly state. And Paul's saying, but -- that's our present condition, but here's our hope. We're going to be transformed when Jesus returns and he resurrects that body that's been laid to sleep in the grave into his glorious body. The Christian faith is the only faith that boasts an empty tomb. Buddha's dead, Abraham's dead, Muhammad's dead. Jesus is alive in endless life.

And I have a friend, H.B. Charles, African-American pastor, who said Christianity is the only religion where the adherents go to the grave of its founder to make sure he's not there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: I love that. I think he joked there's no skeletons in the Christian's cupboard.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Philip De Courcy: Right? We have a resurrected Christ who was resurrected bodily. It's a tenant of orthodoxy. You must believe that Jesus was raised from the dead bodily. And if you don't, according to Romans 10:9-10, you're not a Christian. But Jesus was raised physically, and we're going to be made like unto him.

And in the chapter, I -- we'll not get into this. It talks about six things about our resurrected body. It'll be physical. We're getting a body. C.S. Lewis said Christianity is the most materialistic of all the world religions. You know, there's views of nirvana and some kind of perfect state that's ethereal, spiritual, bodiless, you know, where we're all some little Casper floating about the place. No. We're going to be resurrected with a physical body that will endure.

Second, it'll be personal. We'll look like ourselves. Hopefully a little bit better, you know. I didn't get the beauty genes. My daughter said -- you'll like this, Jennifer. My youngest daughter is not married yet, and dying to find the right guy. She said to me one day, "Dad, I want to marry somebody like you, just better looking." So we'll be better looking, but we'll look like ourselves. Jesus was recognized, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. We'll be recognizable, yeah.

Philip De Courcy: Matthew 17, Moses and Elijah were recognized by the disciples, which is interesting since they never met them --

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

Philip De Courcy: -- which I think tells us we'll know each other in heaven -- right? -- you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: Number three, it'll be permanent. It's a body that will be a glorious body, sowed in dishonor, raised in glory.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: It'll be a perfect body. It'll be a powerful body, you know, sown in weakness, raised in strength.

But the one I love, it's a pure body. It was sown as a natural body, be raised as a spiritual body. I think what that means -- not that it's -- spiritual in the sense it's not corporal or material. It's a body now no longer subject to sin.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: I get tired fighting sin. Don't you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, so tired.

Philip De Courcy: Sadly I have to admit, the things I would do, I don't, and the things I don't want to do, I do. But there's going to come a point where my desire to please Christ will be matched by a body no longer subject to unredeemed flesh, to sinful tendencies, and that's the thing I'm looking forward to most. So, I mean, we are a shadow of our future selves. We've got this living hope based on the resurrection of Christ.

I love this story. Have you gone cruising?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: All right. I've gone. I like it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Philip De Courcy: So I heard a story about this guy's on a cruise. You know, the ship hits a bit of rough water, it's bobbing up and down, he starts to get a little seasick. So he goes out onto the deck, get a bit of fresh air. He's leaning over the rails. He looks like death warmed up. And this crew member comes by and he realizes -- he's seen this a thousand times. He goes over to the guy and he says, "Look, I know how you're feeling, you know, but I want you to know that in all my years of sailing the seven seas, no one has ever died of sea sickness, although you might feel like you're about to." And the poor soul looks at him and says, "Don't tell me that. It's the hope of dying that keeps me alive." And -- look, that's no hope, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Philip De Courcy: The hope of dying -- the hope of dying is not a hope. The hope of dying and to never die again, that's a hope.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes.

Philip De Courcy: And that's ours. We're born on to a living hope. We've got that blessed hope of the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior and so...

You know, my daughter Beth, who was the one who said she wants to marry somebody like me, just better looking, she's over our disability ministry at our church. Or she calls it Indispensables. They're the indispensable part of the body.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

Philip De Courcy: But think about the hope that Christianity brings --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: -- to the broken body --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: -- to those who are -- your own self has dealt with a physical ailment that's limited your ability to see. Christianity is promising a new body, a fully functioning body, with no downside, no death, no decay, no limitations, no disabilities. This is a message to sell. Amen?

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. Hallelujah.

And here's the thing. The same Jesus who is going to restore and give us that resurrected body is the same Jesus who honors the body we have now, and so we need to honor it. Just treat it well.

Philip De Courcy: I like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, treat it well because this is the body that God is going to resurrect someday and make new. So let's treat it well.

Philip De Courcy: I love that. Because again, we mentioned earlier in the broadcast -- and I think Randy Alcorn in his book deals a lot with this -- that at times the church has been affected by Platonism --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

Philip De Courcy: -- Plato, by Greek mythology, that -- or even we talk about Gnosticism, which was beginning to enter the church in Colossi. And basically Gnosticism or Greek mythology is redemption. Salvation is to escape the body, to shed the body --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. No. Right. Right, as if it's inferior.

Philip De Courcy: -- and to get into some kind of pure spiritual experience. And that's not Christian.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

Philip De Courcy: God is going to redeem our body. We're going to -- as we've said, we're going to have a material existence forever. And I love your point. So this is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Philip De Courcy: Our bodies are not to be abused. They're not to be cut. They're not to be -- we're not to abuse them through lack of sleep. Good diet, exercise. We're to take our stewardship of our body seriously so that -- I just downloaded an article I want to read called "Longevity," as in, hey, I want to get to heaven, but I'm on earth. This is my stewardship --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Philip De Courcy: -- this is the preface of the never-ending story. So I want to have a body as much as I can that's under my control. Some things are not under my control. Some things you're born with, some things are hereditary. Get that genetic. But where I can control, I want to extend the life of my body. For what ends? That I may present it a living sacrifice so that I might prove what is that good and acceptable will of God. I want to have a life of full service to Jesus Christ. I want to die exhausted, I want to fall over the finish line and go to my eternal reward.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Well, okay. So since you just talked about the finish line, that's where we are in our conversation, unfortunately. And so can I just say, I'm so glad you've written this book, because what a rich resource. And 4:13ers, we're going to have a link to it at the end of the podcast, so hang on, because we're going to get here to the very last question, Pastor. Oh, my goodness. So hard for me to just pick one last question. But I guess this is it. Okay?

So we've heard all this about heaven, that it's a literal place, it's material, it's not just ethereal, and that it is a very present reality and can affect our today reality. So last question, what would it look like from this day forward if our present life right now was fully governed by our future life in heaven?

Philip De Courcy: I love that. We're back to kind of where we started, the Colossians then -- or Philippians 3, your citizenship is in heaven. That's such an interesting phrase. Because Philippi was 800 miles from Rome, but it was a Roman colony. And Paul is drawing from the world of politics there and he's saying to -- hey, if you're in Philippi, while it's not Rome, the language of Rome governs it, the architecture of Rome governs it, the politics of Rome governs it. Eight hundred miles away, but it feels like Rome in terms of commerce, politics, architecture, all of that. And he says, hey, we're not yet in heaven, but our citizenship is there.

Or Colossians talks about, you know, we are seated with Christ. Our life is hidden. We are ready in that sense in heaven. Our Savior's in heaven, our Lord is in heaven, we're in union with him through the Holy Spirit. So in that sense, heaven is a reality that ought to govern our present experience. It ought to govern our choices, it ought to govern our priorities. It ought to give us hope, it ought to help us redeem the time.

Maybe if I finish -- I remember hearing a preacher tell this story. I think it'll put an exclamation mark on what we've just said. We've got to set our affections on things above. We've got to let the New Jerusalem come into our mind. We've got to, you know, bring the thoughts of the throne of God, what's going on in heaven, the ultimate end of all men, that's got to determine our actions and behavior even today.

The story was told about a pastor who got ganged up on in his church and he got booted out in an angry members' meeting and congregational meeting. And so he goes around to his office, he's done, gets his stuff kind of into the box, and he's walking out to his car. And this old deacon who loved him and was so disappointed in how the meeting turned out goes -- and with a heart of concern for his pastor, he says, "Pastor, what are you going to do? What's your next step? How are you going to handle this?" And the pastor said to him, "It's okay. I'm going to heaven." And the deacon goes, "I know you're going to heaven. I'm talking about now. You just got booted, your life's been upended, things are upside down. Pastor, are you going to be okay? What are you going to do?" "It's okay. I'm going to heaven."

Now, the point of the story, Jennifer, is that's the way we ought to think. When the downturn in the economy comes, it's okay. I'm going to heaven. When we get a bad doctor's report, it's okay. I'm going to heaven. When things are tough, when we're persecuted for righteousness's sake, it's okay. We're going to heaven. Because you know what? Five seconds on the other side of this life, it'll all be washed away, and the incoming tide of eternal blessing will cause us to say it was worth it all when we see Jesus. So folks today, it's okay. We're going to heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's okay. We're going to heaven. So whatever you face, it's okay. We're going to heaven. As I love to say, earth is short and heaven is long. So my friends, the reality of heaven, it really can change how we live right here, right now, here on earth.

KC Wright: Our citizenship is in heaven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it sure is.

KC Wright: And everything we do, the way we talk, the way we live, all should reflect where our true country really is. Man, this was so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wasn't it?

KC Wright: And it was even better because of his accent, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: I know.

KC Wright: So you need to get this man's book. Jennifer recommended it, and she wrote a whole Bible study on heaven, so she should know. It's going to be a fantastic read. Get yours today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I really do think it is a great resource. And I just think you cannot, my people, read too many books on heaven. So, of course, do my Bible study, absolutely, and read Philip's book.

KC Wright: We will have links to both at 413podcast.com/388. And you can win one of Philip's books right now by going to Jennifer's Instagram @jennrothschild.

And, of course, the Show Notes will get you more info on Philip's book as well, on Jennifer's video-based Bible study on heaven, and anything else that will make your life better.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Amen.

KC Wright: So let's live like heaven is real. Let it give you hope. You can, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And --

Jennifer and KC: You can.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Start a Morning Prayer Routine? With Tara Beth Leach [Episode 387]

Tara Beth Leach: I realized that the stories that we tell ourselves, I'm not a morning person, I'm not a morning person, really begin to shape how we live. And I do believe that we can become morning people. Not that everybody needs to wake up at 4:00 AM or even 6:00 AM, but that we would rise early enough to set our intentions in alignment with God at the very first moments of the morning hour.

Jennifer Rothschild: Are you a morning person? How about praying in the morning, morning prayer, how is that going for you?

Well, did you know that the practice of waking early to seek God is woven throughout the fabric of the Bible? From the Gospels to the Psalms, from the wisdom literature to the historical books, the Bible resounds with the call to seek God early so that we can set the tone of our day with prayer and then surrender the unfolding hours to his presence.

Well, on today's 4:13, author Tara Beth Leach is going to share how she adopted the ritual of rising early and discovered the transformative power of mornings with God. And she invites you to do the same. Now, you're going to get some practical guidance, some spiritual encouragement, and a structured yet very flexible approach.

So if you're not a morning person, do not fret. You're going to wake up, Buttercup, and we're going to do this.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Jennifer here to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. Don't you just love it when you hear KC's cheerful voice? KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. It's just two friends in the closet here --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- down under the stairs, one topic and zero stress.

But you know what, KC? This topic could be stressful --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because if you're not a morning person, you're like, oh, no, thank you. I don't need to feel guilty that I'm not a morning person. You're right, you don't need to feel guilty --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and that's not what's going to happen here.

So I got to ask you, KC, are you a morning person or a night owl?

KC Wright: Well, okay, so I've gone back and forth. Okay. Years and years and years of doing morning radio on three or four different radio stations in my career, I've had to be in my chair at 5:00 AM.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is miserable.

KC Wright: Okay? So I used to be a morning person. And then after I got out of morning radio, I went headfirst into being a night owl --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

KC Wright: -- and staying up till 1:00, 2:00, 3:00.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh.

KC Wright: But now at my young age --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, at your young age, with a daughter who has to get up for school.

KC Wright: Okay? So now here I have found myself in this season of life where Elly needs to go to bed early, because I'm taking her to school in the morning, and so I have found myself, like, when she goes to bed around 9:00, I'm like, I'm out. I'm clocking out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Dude, I get you. I, like, get giddy. When I get to get in bed between 9:00 and 9:30, like, I giggle sometimes when I get in bed.

But you know what's funny? I think I told y'all last year I got this Oura ring that tracks your sleep and your steps and your health. Okay. So I always wear it. And you sleep in it, of course, and it tells you what kind of sleep you get.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so it will give you a sleep score. And, like, you can even earn a crown if you had good sleep. It'll tell you about your sleep efficiency. So that's really helped me --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- understand my sleep.

But here's one thing I resent. Okay. It does determine whether you are a morning chronotype or an evening chronotype, which just means a morning person or a night person. It's just using a fancy ten dollar a word. Okay. But -- because you physically are wired usually toward one or the other. And so I am definitely a morning person. So I go to bed around 9:00-ish, 9:30. It doesn't mean I go to sleep, but, like, I get in bed, I listen to a book.

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, my Oura ring now will tell me at 7:30 PM, "Start getting ready for a good night's sleep." I'm like, Dude, this is -- I am not geriatric. What are you telling me to get ready for bed at 7:30 PM? I do not need to wind down, I do not need chamomile tea. Like, this is ridiculously early.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's an embarrassment.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, like I'm a geriatric. So I don't know why Oura thinks I need to have an hour and a half bedtime routine.

KC Wright: Prepping for bed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. But -- anyway...

But here's the thing. When I first saw this book by Tara Beth, I thought, not sure. Not sure. Because I don't want to feel guilty or like I should get up because there's one way to do it.

If you're not a morning person -- my hubby is not -- it's okay. The point is spending time with the Lord. But also it is good to challenge our thinking and to consider -- just like it is not natural for us to fast, we would rather eat, perhaps there's a season of life where it is not natural for us to get up early, but that might be what we need spiritually.

Okay. There's even a quote there -- look at that, KC -- from Tara Beth's book that talks about, like, why we need this.

KC Wright: "In the stillness of the early morning, when the world is still quiet, a sacred moment beckons your soul to awaken. The day is yet untouched by the noise of chaos and clamor, and the heart can commune with God in ways the rest of the day simply cannot offer." Wow. See why we want you to listen to this and consider getting up early?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, seriously. Okay, I'm inspired. You're going to like this conversation.

All right, KC, let's introduce her.

KC Wright: Tara Beth Leach is a graduate of Olivet Nazarene University and Northern Theological Seminary and serves at Good Shepherd Church in Naperville, Illinois. She's the author of four books, including "The Great Morning Revolution." A frequent speaker at conferences, retreats, and universities all across America, Tara Beth addresses topics such as church leadership, women in ministry, and the spiritual practice of morning prayer. Tara Beth and Jeff Leach have been married for almost two decades now. They live near Chicago, Illinois, where they are raising two rambunctious sons.

All right. Take a sip of coffee, which is why I wake up in the morning. I start craving that coffee late at night. I even smell it sometimes at night looking forward to my coffee in the morning.

Jennifer Rothschild: I dream about it.

KC Wright: So take that sip of coffee, lean back, and listen in to Jennifer and Tara Beth.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Tara Beth, I'm so glad I get to meet you. This is going to be a fun conversation. And part of the reason I wanted to talk to you is because the title of your book, "The Great Morning Revolution." Okay. So some people hear that and go, "Yes!"

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And some people hear that and go, "Ugh." So my questions, two as we start. Are you a morning person, or have you always been? And for those who are not, those who are night owls, why do they need to tune in and consider maybe getting up a little earlier?

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah, I was a self-proclaimed night owl for years. I was the student in college who waited to write my paper until 11:00 PM, and I would stay up all night long. I was the student in college that would set my alarm for 7:50 AM if I had an 8:00 AM class, and sometimes even oversleep for important things. I hated mornings. There was even a time where my husband came in our bedroom, when we were married early, and I had unplugged the alarm clock from the bed and I was holding it in my arms as I was sleeping.

And so when I began this journey, I remember thinking, Really, Lord? You want me to start rising early in the morning to be with you? And I realized that the stories that we tell ourselves, I'm not a morning person, I'm not a morning person, really begin to shape how we live. And I do believe that we can become morning people. Not that everybody needs to wake up at 4:00 AM or even 6:00 AM, but that we would rise early enough to set our intentions and alignment with God at the very first moments of the morning hour.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love that. Because that's worthy. Whether you enjoy staying up late or whether you enjoy getting up early, all of us who are in Christ need a minute, whatever that looks like, in the morning. And so we're going to talk about the importance of that time of day, but before we get there, I would love if you'd share -- because I read that this book was born out of a very difficult season of your life. So if you could tell us how that challenge of that season led you to this new spiritual morning practice.

Tara Beth Leach: Yes, it truly was born out of the wilderness and darkness. It began in 2020. Which all of us lived 2020, I don't need to remind everyone what was going on. But I was living in beautiful, sunny Pasadena, California, serving a church that I loved, living in a home that we loved.

And in February of 2020, my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and my mom was diagnosed with dementia, a rare form of frontal temporal dementia. And then my parents lost their home. And during that pandemic, I was flying back and forth from LAX to Chicago to drive my dad to his treatment. And by August, we really just kind of hit a point where we -- my husband and I and children felt like God was calling us to move back to the Midwest to honor my mother and father. And so we did that and I was able to care for my dad for ten months before he passed. And eventually my mother moved in with us so we could care for her.

And around '21, I was in such a dark place, Jennifer. I was waking up most mornings completely despondent. I was questioning God's call on my life and the purpose of us moving back to blistery cold Chicago and no longer around the cackling parrots in Pasadena, and I was struggling to connect with God. And one blistery cold morning -- or day, the Lord just spoke very clearly to me, "Tara Beth, it's time to wake up. It is time to wake up." And I knew that God was calling me to a spiritual awakening, but I also knew that something had to change in my life and the patterns in my life.

And so that next morning I set my alarm for 4:30 AM, and I said, "Okay, God, here I am. I'm ready to wake." And days turned into weeks, weeks turned into months, months turned into years, and I began to look forward to waking up in the morning and beginning my day with God. And eventually I remember I would say to my husband, "You know what? It has been such a great day, and it's been such a great morning because God set the agenda of my day." God set my intentions. Not my phone, not my social media, not my email, but God.

And eventually, great morning became a double entendre as it not only meant that it was great no matter what came my way, but it stood then for gratitude, reflection, exaltation, asking and trusting, which is the pattern by which I pray every morning and meet with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So when I read that, I loved it. And I want us to unpack that a little further. But before we get there, you mentioned something I want us to circle back to, Tara Beth. Because many of us, when we start the day, we do reach for our phone, you know, like to turn off our alarm. And then automatically it's like, oh, I got to check the news, oh, I got to check my email --

Tara Beth Leach: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- before we're even out of bed.

Tara Beth Leach: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I'm curious, in your opinion, how do you think that does affect the way our day goes?

Tara Beth Leach: So I'll give you an example. Recently my husband and I were praying together. And when we got to reflect, we typically will read Scripture then. And we didn't have physical Bibles and so we said, oh, let's just read the Bible from the phone. And I grabbed my phone and a notification popped up for an email. And I opened the email and my husband said, "What are you doing?" I said, "Wait, wait, wait." And I just started scrolling and reading the email. And it was a hard email to read. It was work related. Someone was upset about something.

And, man, I tell you what, bitterness and anger sunk its teeth into my heart and impacted the rest of my morning. Whereas I think if I had begun with God first and allowed God to set my intentions for the day, and even my emotional patterns, I think that I would have received that email very differently.

And we are consumers, and everything that we consume as humans have a profound formational power in our minds and our hearts and our souls. And when we reach for our phones, immediately everything that we are reading from that device is forming our minds, it is forming our intentions, it is forming our emotions even. And if you think about offering our first fruits to God, the morning hour is an opportunity for us to give God our first fruits. Not our leftovers, but our first fruits.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And it's interesting when you say it that way too. When we don't, when we pick up our phone, that's who we give our first fruits to?

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: The news media? I mean, I've even thought recently -- there were some notifications. I would get on my phone. And every time I'd get one, I'd get this -- like just -- my spirit would get seized up, I'd get mad. And I think, you know, Jennifer, if this were an actual human, you wouldn't invite them in your home and say, "Here, come disrupt my life."

Tara Beth Leach: Amen.

Jennifer Rothschild: So why do we do that? I just think it's a mindless habit that we have developed because it's culturally normal. And so we do need to kind of jar ourselves.

And so with that in mind, I think of people listening that are like, okay, yeah, I get that, I need that, but I don't know. I don't know if I can make time in the morning, like, to pray, because I leave for work early or I have little kids or whatever. Okay? We'll talk about the practicality of how to do it.

But before we go there, I want to know what do you think the benefits are? Why does it matter that it's morning? I know you've kind of touched on it. But why does it matter that it's morning?

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah, when we wake up in the morning -- so we know the Scripture from Lamentations 3:22, "His mercies are new every morning." There is something about the morning hour where our minds are a blank canvas and we get to decide what are we going to allow -- who or what are we going to allow to have input on that blank canvas? And morning hour is an opportunity to let God do that.

And we see throughout Scripture -- there's Scriptural precedence. Yes, we see Jesus staying up late to pray, of course, many times. But we also see him rising early in the morning. And we see others in the morning who rise to be with God.

I think about Moses. Multiple times, especially in the time when he was meeting with God on Mount Sinai, we have a couple of different examples when it says explicitly "He got up early the next morning and built an altar at the foot of the mountain." Later on, again after a mountain meeting with God, in Exodus 34 it says, "So Moses chiseled off two stone tablets like the first one and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning to meet the Lord." These are just two examples. But we see -- just a quick Google, friends, you can see so many examples of people in Scripture choosing the morning hour, giving their first fruits to meet with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: And he's worthy of that. He's worthy.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So someone is listening and thinking, yes, my spirit says yes, but my flesh is just so incapable -- okay? -- so they think. Or the enemy of our soul can hijack this concept and turn it into legalism and we think, okay, it's just one more to-do list on my got to please God thing.

Tara Beth Leach: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So you write in your book that rising early is not about grinding through our exhaustion. Okay. Now, that's interesting. So I'd like you to unpack that.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah. So it's not about grinding through our exhaustion, nor is it a legalistic ritual, but instead, we are rising because God is victorious. We are rising in response to the victory and the battle that has been won. And so this isn't a legalistic ritual, a chore, a to-do list, something to earn favor with God. We already have favor with God. We are already beloved. The victory has been won, Christ has risen. Christ has ascended to the throne. And so this is about opportunity. It's a privilege to be able to rise and align our lives with God.

And not everyone needs to be 4:30. By the way, I'm waking up between 5:45 and 6:00 AM right now. It's not 4:30. And that's just because we're in a different life stage. My boys are teenagers now and they are pretty independent in the mornings. But find a way, even if it's just a few moments, to have those transformational moments with God, not for God's favor, but because of God's favor.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, I like that. Yeah, we're not earning anything, we're responding to what we've been given.

Tara Beth Leach: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's motivating right there. That is very different than grinding through exhaustion. And I hear this too, Tara Beth, and I think, well, it doesn't mean you might not be tired some mornings, you know, but that doesn't mean that it's still not worthy.

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[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, friends, picture this. A Christian community committed to learning, loving people, and equipped to change the world. And put all that right by the beach in dreamy West Palm Beach, Florida. Well, that is the university where I graduated, Palm Beach Atlantic University.

PBA's world-class main campus is located in downtown West Palm Beach, Florida. It's nestled right beside the intracoastal waterway and, get this, it's just a mile from the Atlantic Ocean. I remember with my boyfriend and with my friends walking across the bridge and hanging out right there at the beach. Oh, yeah.

The campus, it is beautiful. The surroundings are stunning. But the most beautiful thing about Palm Beach Atlantic University is the students and the faculty. The university is full of Christ-centered opportunities for learning, growing, oh, and it does have the most fun campus life. So PBA is going to equip your student to grow in wisdom, lead with conviction, and serve God boldly. So you need to check it out at 413podcast.com/PBA. Let's get back now to our conversation.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, let's swing back now. The acronym that you use in the book that you just kind of went through with us is this great acronym. Okay? So it's Gratitude, Reflection, Exalt, Ask, and Trust. Okay.

Tara Beth Leach: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Take us through each one of those and kind of give us a feel for what it looks like when you get up at 5:45 and what this looks like for you and it can look like for us.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah. Well, first of all, one of the things I've learned is waking up is moving my body immediately. And so one of the things I learned that doesn't work is staying in bed for this practice. There's something about getting that blood flowing and having a space, a designated space where you can connect with God. And I know for some mamas, for example, who have littles, that might be on the chair while you're nursing your baby, or maybe on the move while you're changing diapers, or maybe in the car after you drop your kids off at school.

But for me, I immediately go downstairs, I have my coffee, and I sit on the couch and I have that space. I have worship music on in the background. And I begin with gratitude. And sometimes it's verbal of saying out loud, God, I am so grateful for my home, I am so grateful for my children, I am so grateful for these amazing dogs that I have, and my husband. And it's simple things. It doesn't have to be profound. It is really just aligning ourselves to remember the very good things that God has given us.

And then on to reflection. Reflection, you think of holding up a mirror and you see your reflection. That's where we allow the Holy Spirit and God's Word to examine our hearts, examine our lives, and to show us the gap between righteous living and how we've been living. And my husband and I, we do that through reading Scripture. We read in the Gospels, then we go on to a psalm or proverb, and then we go into the Old Testament. And then we say, what has this Scripture reading revealed about areas in my life that God is asking more from me? Or is there something from this passage that God convicted me?

And then into exaltation. Then we are praising God in response that God has spoken, that God has revealed good things to me in Scripture and that God is speaking. And so from exaltation, sometimes we will say praises out loud. Sometimes, like this morning, it was worship music and we allowed the music to guide us in that song of praise. Sometimes we read Psalm 145 together.

And by the way, if you haven't caught on, I now do this morning practice with my husband. This is something that we do together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I was realizing that, which is really cool.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah, yeah. It's been, just really honestly, pretty profound for our marriage. And what God is doing in our prayer life together, it's been really transformational. There were seasons where my husband and I never prayed together. And it has just been completely transformational what God is doing. And that's lingering beyond the morning, by the way. I mean, we're finding that we're driving somewhere and we're like, "Let's pray."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah. And then on to ask. This is our prayers of petition where we bring our requests before God. And we pray for our children, we pray for our church, we pray for our community, and we will just kind of go back and forth doing that.

Then this next part, trust, is really important. I am a person that tends to run anxious, and sometimes my prayers will get caught in this anxiety circle where I am using prayer as a way to cope with my anxiety. Which, great thing to do. But we also got to get to the place where we're able to say, "God, not my will, but your will be done. I surrender this to you." And it is amazing the release that happens in my body, mind, and soul when we pray that prayer of surrender. And so oftentimes for me, that looks like praying Psalm 23 and reading it. Psalm 23 is such -- just an incredible prayer of trust and surrender to God.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love -- you know what I also have noted, not only that you do this with your husband, but that you pray Scripture. You exalt with Scripture, you petition with Scripture, you trust with Scripture. And I think that's such a comforting notion. Because sometimes someone might think, oh, well, that's easy for her because she's like a professional Christian. She writes books. But I don't know what to pray. Well, you don't need to. You have Scripture.

Tara Beth Leach: That's right. That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so -- okay, that might be a barrier for someone. But I'd also love for you to kind of talk through, are there some other barriers that you're aware of that might show up if somebody tries this? I mean, give us heads up so they don't become stumbling blocks.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah. Don't start off too long. I think a barrier could be, Oh, my goodness, how am I going to find that time? Start short, start small. This can feel really overwhelming to people. And so it might look like keeping it as simple as possible. What's really important is that you begin with God.

Another barrier is work schedules. Perhaps you have an unpredictable work schedule where you might be called into a morning shift. Or maybe you're working two jobs right now and you think, wow, lady, that's really quite the privilege that you can do that, but I'm working two jobs right now. And so it's possible that someone might even be able to do this prayer practice when they're on the bus in between jobs and going from one place to the next. Get creative. A barrier is that we could get too rigid with this and, therefore, fail, not be able to do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Right.

Tara Beth Leach: And by the way, like -- again, this isn't about failure and succeeding really. Again, this is not about earning God's favor. But this is about bringing our lives, our souls, our minds before God so that we can be aligned with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, too, Tara Beth, when you say that, just hearing your story, ultimately this is an act of worship because God deserves it. But what blesses him always benefits us.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because you described how you started just because you felt like the Lord was saying do this and you did it. So I would love to know the transition -- because you said then at one point you couldn't wait, you just couldn't wait to get up the next morning. How long did that take for you?

Because I think sometimes we think, okay, God told me to do it. This is going to be like -- I'm going to Tigger out of bed, run in and have the best coffee of my life and just take on the day. Is it hard? Was it hard? How long did it take before it became delight, moved from discipline to delight?

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah. Oh, almost immediately. Because when we begin our days -- again, those morning hours are precious. And when we begin with God, we are going to experience the blessings of God. And the first morning I did it, I thought, why have I been waiting so long to do this --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Tara Beth Leach: -- like this, in this kind of way? And I could hardly wait until the next morning.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Tara Beth Leach: And there are mornings when we're on vacation or, you know, I had a really late night before, and the morning hour might get a little jumbled and I feel it. I feel it. You know, this morning I had so much joy, so much joy after being able to have that kind of prayer time with my husband, and it was right away. Not to say, like, that's everyone's story.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Right.

Tara Beth Leach: But what I will say is if you begin with God, you're not going to go wrong.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. You're not going to be disappointed, are you?

Tara Beth Leach: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's no way.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm curious, do you journal when you're doing -- you know, the gratefulness, the reflection, the ask -- or exalt, ask, trust, do you journal your thoughts, your prayers, or is this just kind of a real time moment for you? How do you manage that?

Tara Beth Leach: I used to when I was doing this by myself. And if my husband is on travel for work, I will journal it. And so I do think independently for someone, if -- you know, most people are going to do this prayer practice alone, journaling is an incredible tool. Because I'm doing this with my husband right now and we're in a season where God is really calling us to deepen and increase our prayer life together, this is something that we are doing out loud together in the moment.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Which I love that you said the word "seasons" --

Tara Beth Leach: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because there are seasons for all.

Tara Beth Leach: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what I've also heard you say, there's no one way to do this. You offer a framework.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, oh, girl, we're just responding.

Tara Beth Leach: That's right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, we're just responding to the spirit with us.

Tara Beth Leach: Our God is not a rigid God. God is a creative and open God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah. And what a privilege that he wants us to meet with him in the morning.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, that's just astounding.

Tara Beth Leach: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Wow. All right. I'm so glad you've written the book.

Tara Beth Leach: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm highly recommending this to our people. This is going to be a great way just to start over. It's a revolution. It can be a start over for you. And sometimes when we don't know what to do, when we just sense, okay, Lord, maybe this is what you're calling me to do, do it. Do it. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Tara Beth Leach: You have nothing to lose.

Jennifer Rothschild: Nothing. Maybe a little sleep. But, hey, I don't think that's a big deal. Especially the older we get. I sleep less anyway, it just seems. I'm up and down all night, so whatever.

All right, Tara Beth, let's get to your last question here. Because I feel inspired, I know our 4:13 family does too, so last question. All right, leave us with some encouragement. So what encouragement can you give to those of us who are thinking, oh, I need this. I am so spiritually fatigued and I'm just unsure how to begin this morning routine. What encouragement can you give us? Because she can't even think straight right now. She just needs you to tell her what to do.

Tara Beth Leach: Yeah. I would say make a decision right now. Which I know that sounds really like a bold statement because I don't know where your listeners are in life and what they're experiencing.

But I do know what it's like to be groggy and weary and in the spiritual wilderness. What's the worst that could happen if you wake up a little bit early tomorrow and allow the Spirit of the Living God to shape your intentions and agenda of the day? God delights in your sleepy head. God delights in your groggy eyes. God delights in that, and God delights in meeting with you. And so give it a chance. Make a decision now.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, our friends, you heard her. Decide right now. Don't wait. So, like, what is the worst thing that could happen if you actually got up early and invite God to shape your day? Oh, our friends, he delights in you. So give it a chance.

KC Wright: Yes and Amen. You have nothing to lose but sleep. No. You have nothing to lose. We have a prayer podcast, actually, with Laura Johnson on prayer journaling, so it would really be nice to complement this podcast with that convo.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it would.

KC Wright: So we have a link to it and her steadfast prayer journal on the Show Notes right now just for you. It's simply found at 413podcast.com/377. And, of course, we're giving one of Tara Beth's books away at the Show Notes right now, or go straight to Jennifer's Instagram @jennrothschild.

Okay. Well, our cups are full for sure. This was such good stuff. So remember, you can do this. You can get up early, you can meet God in the morning, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: But honestly, mornings, it's where it's at spending time with the Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: I agree. Your brain is uncluttered.

KC Wright: It's the first thing, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. He deserves the first fruits.

KC Wright: Right. And life isn't a picnic. We are in a spiritual war, and you need to put on the armor of God. I pray Psalms 91 over myself. Praying in the Spirit, having the Holy Spirit produce your day. He'll tell you things in prayer. Do this, don't do this.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. I want the Holy Spirit to produce my day.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good.

KC Wright: He does. He does.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Survive an Unwanted Divorce? With Lysa TerKeurst [Episode 386]

Lysa TerKeurst: The journey of easing the ache of that sorrow is going from the grief stage of denial, like I can't believe this is happening; to getting into a place of accepting this happened; accepting I'm not going to get the answers to all those questions; accepting even if I got the answers to those questions, I probably wouldn't agree with them anyways; and accepting the fact that I have to make the decision at some point to detach my ability to heal from the other person ever owning what they did, saying they're sorry, and having that epic conversation.

Jennifer Rothschild: A failed marriage does not make you a failure in God's eyes. When Lysa TerKeurst experienced the unwanted death of her 30-year marriage, she didn't even know who to turn to or what would actually help her. She needed to get her bearings on what the Bible really says about marriage and divorce, and she also needed the tools to work through this fallout that she was walking through. Well, now she offers you the resource that she wishes she had.

So in this conversation, Lysa is going to answer some of your toughest questions like does God hate divorce? And, like, how can I move forward if I'm divorced? And what about the anger? How can I get over the anger that I still feel?

So whether you are in the throes of a divorce, or maybe you're still processing a marriage that was lost years ago, or maybe you're walking with someone who's in the middle of a devastating season, you are going to find the hope, empathy, and truth that you need. So let's get it going.

KC Wright: Welcome, welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, good good -- I was going to say morning, but you might be listening somewhere else. KC and I are here in the closet, and it's morning, so good morning.

KC Wright: Good afternoon, good evening, good night.

Jennifer Rothschild: And good evening. We're so glad you're with us. I'm Jennifer, and my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" live along with me and KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. Here we are in the closet. And you know the drill. It is two friends, one topic and zero stress, which is good. Because the nature of this conversation, some of you might think, oh, no, I don't want to listen to this. Listen, you do want to listen to this --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because this is a hopeful conversation and a practical and comforting and empathetic conversation. It's not going to bring you down, it is going to lift you up and give you what you need.

We're still in a new year. As long as it's January, to me it's new year. And so I've already told you about a couple new things, you know, like Palm Beach Atlantic is one of our partners. I told you last week also a new thing. I have a tattoo. If you don't know, you'll have to go back and listen.

But let me tell you another new thing, KC.

KC Wright: Yeah. Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: This year I am doing a tour. It's called the Hope of Heaven Tour. You can find some links on the Show Notes. But we're going to be in the southeast first of all in March, in Georgia, Tennessee, South Carolina. So if you're in that area, it'll be me and Kelly Minter and Point of Grace. And we want you guys to come join us.

It's just going to be one evening in different churches, and we're going to be talking about the hope of heaven and how to live it now. So check out the Show Notes because that's a new thing also for this year.

Anything else new this year, KC?

KC Wright: I love all things new.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do too.

KC Wright: I love that his mercies are new this morning because we used up all of yesterday.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we did. They evaporate.

KC Wright: Well, I'm just so excited about the Hope For Heaven tour.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's going to be cool.

KC Wright: It's going to be amazing.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's going to be very cool.

Okay. I can't think of anything else. Oh, I can tell you one thing that happened yesterday.

KC Wright: Okay. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because we're recording on a Monday right now. So I was at church yesterday, and all the little grandkids were sick. And so we picked up one of them to bring him to church, little John Robert. And John Robert is hilarious. He is the one who wants to grow up and be a Pokémon. He informed me yesterday that he is too old for PAW Patrol. Yes. He's four.

Okay. So we are leaving church, and it's just he and Pops and me. And Pops is trying to train these little boys to be gentlemen, so he's like, "John Robert, go open the door." Well -- so John Robert's already running up there to open the door for us. He holds it open for me. And as I walked through, I said, "John Robert, thank you so much for holding the door open for me." And he said, "It's okay. I like you. I will do that for a week."

Okay. Well, my statute of limitations on being liked will only be for a week. But, yeah, that's why he did it, because he likes me. He will do that for a week. I just laughed out loud. I said, "Well, thank you, darling. That's so sweet."

KC Wright: So cute.

Jennifer Rothschild: "Maybe we can renew our commitment next week and the week after also."

KC Wright: We could do a whole podcast on the things kids say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's great. It's great.

KC Wright: I remember once Elliana hopping in the car, picked her up at her little elementary school, and she informed me that she had told all of her classmates, including her teacher, that she was an Indian. And I said, "Elly, baby girl, you're not an Indian." And she said, "Well, you said I was born in Carmel, Indiana."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. That's awesome.

KC Wright: Because she was born in Indiana --

Jennifer Rothschild: She's an Indian.

KC Wright: -- girlfriend thought she was an Indian.

Jennifer Rothschild: She's an Indian. Well, she's obviously very smart. I love that.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Someone else who's smart is Lysa. We're about to talk to her. And I like her for more than a week. So do you. We like her forever.

All right, let's introduce Lysa.

KC Wright: Lysa TerKeurst is the President of Proverbs 31 Ministries and the author of eight New York Times bestsellers, including "I Want to Trust You, But I Don't," "Good Boundaries and Goodbyes" -- which I recommend to everybody in my life -- "Forgiving What You Can't Forget" -- another gold star book -- and "It's Not Supposed To Be This Way." Lysa is now remarried. She and her husband, Chaz, enjoy life with their blended family of seven kids and a whole crew of really fun grandkids.

Now, settle in for this life-changing, hopeful conversation with Jennifer and Lysa.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, Lysa, we've been friends forever, and I've watched your life, and most of us know that you have survived a very unwanted divorce. So we're going to start with, like, the most awkward, uncomfortable, and hard question. Okay? So what do you say --

Lysa TerKeurst: Let's do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? Let's get it out of the way. What do you say to somebody who says, "Oh, but God hates divorce"? Start there.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah, I would say -- you know, I'm passionate about God's Word, so I'm sure that you would welcome the opportunity. Let's open up the Bible and let's really examine that verse. And I think if they were using ESV, CSB, or NIV, I think they might be a little stunned to see that Malachi 2:16 doesn't actually say, "God hates divorce."

What it says in my NIV Bible is, "When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect, thus says the Lord." That's a pretty extreme departure from, "God hates divorce."

And, you know, I don't say that to bring any kind of discreditation upon the other person or in any way to shame them, but I think it's just really important -- sometimes phrases that we say or incorrect interpretations of verses are so widely used that we make assumptions without checking them out for ourselves. So my encouragement would be let's check it out.

So that verse actually -- the interpretation of the verse "God hates divorce," we get that from the King James Version. And that's not the first version of the Bible, so we can't use that as the original text to go back to. So we go back to the Hebrew Bible. And if you were to hand the Hebrew scholar Malachi 2:16 in Hebrew, they would go, ooh, that's a tough one.

So then a lot of clarification was brought when the Septuagint came about, which is the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek, and that's where we get the clarity that I believe is the correct interpretation of this verse. And the direction of the hatred is very important.

The direction of the hatred and what's actually being addressed is not God's hatred toward the people getting divorced, it's not God's hatred toward, in my case, the woman who's been devastated by the decisions of another person. The direction of the hatred is actually when the man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect.

So I would say, you know, let's open up the text. Let's make sure that we're not weaponizing verses or heaping more hurt and pain on people and let's really dive into what the Bible actually does and does not say about this very delicate and heartbreaking topic, divorce.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's good. And, you know, that can be applied to everything scripturally. We always need to just not assume and check it out for ourselves, because the Holy Spirit is the ultimate teacher. I'm so glad we clarified that right up front.

And so that leads me to just this whole line of thought. So I'm curious, were there some things that were said to you -- with the process of finally having to get a divorce, were there some things that were just harmful and difficult that people said to you during this time for you?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. You know, one of the statements that was so painful for me is, "Well, you know, Lysa, there's always two sides to every story." And I get the sentiment of where they're trying to get to, you know, but I just think this isn't a spectator sport. Why are we picking sides?

I mean, this is a family that's being devastated. So why don't we just go to the ones being hurt by the decisions of another person and let's just start there. Let's don't spend time trying to pick sides, because that can just cause a lot of pain. So again, I get the human reality of the sentiment of that statement, but I also think we have to be very careful that we don't look at marriage and all marriages and treat them the same.

My good friend Leslie Vernick taught me something so profound. She said, You know, Lysa, there's a big difference between a difficult marriage which we should fight for, and that's when we go to conferences and get counseling and seek to fight for that marriage in every way that we possibly can, when there's two people that are willing to come together and work on that marriage. But there's a big difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage.

And when you enter into that destructive patterns of abuse and addiction and adultery and abandonment, you know, we cannot take garden variety difficult marriage advice and just put it on someone who's in a destructive situation, because it's a whole different ball game, and so we have to treat it as a completely different scenario.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And the way you said it's not a spectator sport, sadly, people get really pumped up about gossip and drama. And sadly, a divorce, a family falling apart, is not a spectator sport. I'm glad you made that so very clear. And we can't lay a blanket template on it all. I think just the whole concept of just let's be people of grace and be quick to listen and slow to speak is such an important mandate for all of us.

And on that same note, Lysa, in your book you write about the misguided messages that Christian women often receive about being a godly wife. Okay, so let's talk about that.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. Well, I think it's important for me to say in no way, shape, or form do I ever want to glorify divorce. I don't. I am very pro-marriage. I'm not pro-divorce.

But the reality is in some situations -- what I was taught is respect your husband, and that meant respect him in every way at all times. And, you know, we do want to honor what is honorable, but we don't want to honor what is dishonorable. And so there's such a fine line between loving in respect to your husband, which is what we absolutely should do, there's a fine line between that and inadvertently enabling bad behavior.

You know, Jesus modeled for us that we are to lay our life down for others. Jesus did that. He laid his life down for others. But Jesus laid down his life to accomplish a high and holy purpose. He did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue. So I think we need to take a real individual look at individual situations, peel back the curtain, and let's look at what's really going on, because you don't want to encourage a wife to respect her husband and she takes it to the point where she's enabling things like abuse, you know.

And I know we have to handle it so delicately, but there are real dynamics happening in real marriages all around us, and I think we need to be concerned that we don't elevate the institution of marriage over the health and well-being of the individual image bearers of Christ.

And again I say that with such delicate -- I hope you can hear the delicate tension in my voice. Do we need to hold the institution of marriage up as sacred? Yes. And as honorable? Yes. God intended marriage to be a beautiful picture between Christ and his bride. But at the same time, we don't want to take the institution of marriage and say that that is more important than the image bearers of Christ that are in that marriage.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, when you think about it, since you conjured that's what the picture is, it's of Christ and the church. If Christ were the groom and the church is the bride, Christ is not abusive. He did not abandon. And so he did not create destruction in the relationship, he brought life. And so, yeah, to elevate it higher than us being his children and the image bearers and the holiness of who he is would do a disservice to the purpose of marriage.

So one of the things you write in your book, Lysa -- and by the way, I do hear this delicate tension in your voice. We all do. And so I will reiterate, I understand and agree that you are pro-marriage and this is a sad reality that sometimes there are unwanted divorces. And so in your book you talk about -- I want to just go a little further with this -- that respecting him should not mean that you cover things up for him. And is that what you're talking about when you say enabling? When we cover things up, is that enabling? Kind of help us understand that even a little more.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. So part of respecting him can be holding some things private. But there's a big difference between holding some things private and keeping secrets. Holding some things private is for the sake of healing. So we don't want to be disrespectful and, like, go out and tell the whole world about the struggles of our husband. That would not be honoring. But again, is he on the path of healing so that we're not hiding?

So yes, we can hold some things private for the sake of healing. But we don't want to keep secrets, which is a completely different thing, and it's for the purpose of hiding, which then enables bad behavior to continue.

And, Jennifer, I got this wrong, you know, for many years in my marriage, and I wish -- looking back now, I wish I would have not told the whole world about what was going on, but I wish that I would have confided in some safe people who could have helped me bring some of this out into the light so that I didn't suffer alone in the darkness. And again, that doesn't mean telling everyone. It means picking a few safe people who are equipped to give wise advice in the specific dynamics at play.

So for me, that would have been I needed to get some wise advice from people who understood addictions. I needed to get some wise advice so that I could see that these weren't isolated mistakes, but these were patterns of behavior that we kept cycling through, creating chaos and dysfunction. And I needed help to see things clearly, that I was just so confused.

You know, there was also a lot of gaslighting at play, which is when we're told that we don't see what we see, we don't hear what we heard, we don't experience what we've experienced, and that gaslighting can start to make you feel crazy. If you are in a relationship and you start questioning your sanity and you start saying, "Gosh, am I the crazy one?" that is a huge red flag that you need to get other wise people who are trained to help you clearly see what's really going on.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. And I think I read that -- I don't know if it was in your book. I read something that you had said that kind of this book is what you wish you had had when you were in the middle of this. And is that because you add -- you give us some of that very practical? Like that phrase right there, if you think you're the crazy one all the time, then that's a red flag. So is that the kind of stuff that this book kind of guides a woman through if she's in -- or a man, if they're in the midst of an unwanted divorce?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yes. And it can certainly go both ways. I think that's an important point to make. The picture I give people, Jennifer, is when I was hit with the reality that my then husband was living a double life, I felt as if I had been in the equivalent of a physical head-on collision and, like, some part of my body had been severed, you know. Because when you're walking through the death of your marriage, there's a severing.

The difference was if I had been in a car accident and there was a physical severing, everybody would have known what to do. They would have known, call 911. The emergency workers would have been there. They would have put a tourniquet on me so I wasn't bleeding out, they would have given me medicine to help numb the excruciating pain, they would have taken me to the hospital, the doctors would have taken me into surgery. And there would have been a gentle approach to the medical realities of the kind of trauma that I had been through so people wouldn't expect you to return emails and live life normally for a while, you know.

So that was happening to me, but it was in the emotional sense. And people don't know necessarily what to do when there's emotional trauma that is just as hurtful and just as devastating. You know, there's not a 911, there's not medics that show up for emotional trauma like this, you know, and people don't know what to do with you. And they can feel empathetic, but I needed more than empathy. I needed help.

And so what I say is this book is like giving someone that initial emergency room visit. It's a short book. It's not intended to be the finish line. It's intended to be that urgent care so that you can start to get an emotional fortitude and biblical confidence and get some tools in your toolbox to be able to survive this. And not just survive it, but to get your bearings and heal from it.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that because it's so practical. It's just triage. Because when your head is spinning and you're just a wreck, you can't read a long book. You don't need to deal with a lot of philosophy. You just need a friend who's been there to say, Here, let me walk you through it. Here's what we do. Here's the first steps. So that's so good, Lysa.

And your clarity too in writing, I know will be a gift for the woman or the man who's dealing with this.

---

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know that back in the '80s I got a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Palm Beach Atlantic University and I snagged a bachelor named Phil, who is no longer a bachelor because now he is my hubby. I got both from Palm Beach Atlantic University. Yeah, that's where I met my very own Dr. Phil in 1982. The degree I got, though, at PBA, it prepared me for the life and the calling that God had for me. And to be honest, the guy I met there, he also made my life better, oh, and my calling even more rich.

So PBA is a premier Christian University in West Palm Beach, Florida, that offers whole person education that prepares every student from around the globe to tackle the big problems of their day with Godly character, open arms, and a servant's heart. Oh, that's what it did for me, and I want that for you.

So if you have kids or grandkids who are wondering about their next step, well, step onto the campus of Palm Beach Atlantic University, and I bet you will find that you belong. You can check it out at 413podcast.com/pba. All right. Now let's get back to this amazing conversation.

---

Jennifer Rothschild: And one of the things I love that you do is you always bring it back to the Word. Okay? So in your book you talk about how the Bible actually does protect women in the context of divorce. So give us some biblical history on this.

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. So let's go all the way back to the ancient world where rabbis were very involved in people's relational dynamics. And so I think this is a really important thing to understand.

Women were in a patriarchal society then and they had very little rights. And if their husband abandoned them in any way, whether it was physical abandonment, whether it was emotional abandonment, you know, just tossing his wife aside and going out and doing whatever he pleased, or it was financial abandonment, you know, in all these different ways that a husband was abandoning the care that he should give to his wife, the rabbis would step in. And they would certainly try to see if this relationship could be saved, and they would encourage that.

But if the husband's heart was hardened -- and I think that's a real key here -- and that husband was unwilling or possibly even emotionally incapable of doing the right thing, then the rabbis would require that that man give the woman a certificate of divorce so that she could leave that marriage and not bring shame upon her family.

You know, if a woman left a marriage back then and they didn't have the certificate of divorce from the rabbis, not even their family would take them in usually because it would bring shame upon the family. So then she would be left destitute, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Lysa TerKeurst: And the other interesting thing that would happen is the man would be required to give the woman the dowry so that she would have financial provision to care for herself. And why that was important is because she could not survive in this patriarchal society without financial provision like what was provided for in the dowry. Otherwise she would have to turn to professions like prostitution and all of that and just create devastation upon devastation.

So, you know, the rabbis were very clear that a certificate of divorce had to be given, which then provided a way for the dowry money to be returned to the woman so that the husband's abandonment did not utterly destroy her.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that because it just shows the protective, sheltering nature of God. I mean, even remember -- it just reminds me somewhere in the Old Testament when God himself said, "I, the Creator, am your husband and your Maker," you know. And he really does treat us that way, takes care of us.

Which leads me -- so as I'm having this conversation with you, Lysa, I'm mindful that now here you are, you know, you're in just such a happy marriage. And I've met your hubby and I think he's a wonderful man. I'm so glad you have each other now. But, you know, this may be a little personal, but I'm curious if you ever feel the old feelings that were a part of this or the old triggers of divorce pop up and, if so, what does that mean? Does it mean anything to you, and what do you do about it?

Lysa TerKeurst: Yeah. That's such an honest question. I'm glad you're asking it, Jennifer.

Yes, I am remarried now to a wonderful man who seeks my highest good, which is what love should be. Love should be two people coming together seeking each other's highest good. And I'm grateful. That doesn't mean that everything's going to be perfect, but it does mean that it's not a toxic, dysfunctional dance where one person's getting harmed over and over and over. And so I'm grateful, I'm so thankful for that.

It's interesting, I was just with my son a couple weeks ago and he asked me, you know, "Mom, do you ever miss Dad?" And, you know, I was very slow to answer because I wanted to handle it so delicately. And so here's how I answered him of that question. I said, I miss the man I thought your dad was, and maybe was at some point. I miss that man. That's the man that I fell in love with, that's the man that was an amazing father and leader and protector and provider of our family, you know, so I miss the man that I thought he was, or maybe he was at some point.

But I don't know -- I don't know him today. I don't know this version of him and so I don't miss this version of him. I pray for him, and, you know, I don't wish harm on him, but my feelings have shifted now into one of acceptance rather than of a pull that I wish I was back with him. I don't have that wish at all.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I can understand that. Do you have the need, or has it been satisfied also or just surrendered, to explain what happened? To yourself. Like, do you still have the well, if only, or I wonder why, or has that been just buried in the grave with Jesus?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I wouldn't say that it was automatically buried. I would say, you know, I've come to the point of understanding that questions like that, you know, what if and how and when and what and, you know, all of that, the answers to those questions are not going to ease the ache of any kinds of sorrow that I've ever been through, nor will the answers to those questions provide a way for me to move forward into healing.

You know, I find it interesting in Mark 14, starting with verse 32, when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane, the soldiers were about to come and arrest him and then the process of the Cross and his crucifixion would start. Jesus, in the Garden of Gethsemane, prays and cries out loud, you know, two very, very crucial prayers.

One, Jesus says, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death." And then he goes on to say, "If possible" -- like, "God, everything is possible for you, so take this cup from me." You know, those two statements by Jesus, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," and, you know, "God, everything is possible for you, take this cup from me," I relate to those statements of Jesus probably more than just about any other statements that Jesus made.

And here's what's amazing about that. Jesus was fully man and fully God, which means that he felt the angst of humanity like we feel, and at the same time he was full divinity, so he had the answer to all questions. He knew everything. He knew the what-if and hows and whens and whats and -- you know, all of those questions, he knew the answers of everything, and those answers did not ease the ache of his sorrow. He still cried out, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death."

So having those answers, that's not what will ease the ache of our sorrow. I think the journey of easing the ache of that sorrow is going from the grief stage of denial, like, I can't believe this is happening, to getting into a place of accepting this happened, accepting I'm not going to get the answers to all those questions, accepting even if I got the answers to those questions, I probably wouldn't agree with them anyways, and accepting the fact that I have to make the decision at some point to detach my ability to heal from the other person ever owning what they did, saying they're sorry, and having that epic conversation where they, you know, beg for your forgiveness and acknowledge how much they've hurt you and say that they wish they would have never done that to you. You know, that epic conversation is one that may never, ever be possible.

So we have to detach our ability to heal from choices another person may never, ever make, and we have to put a stake in the ground and say, I deserve to stop suffering because of what another person did to me. So I'm not going to wait for that epic conversation. I'm not going to wait for them to own what they did or say they're sorry. I'm not going to wait to get the answers to all these painful realities of my life. Instead, I'm going to detach my ability to heal from them and attach my ability to heal to what God says to do. And God says he loves me, God says he will provide for me, God says that he will protect me, and that's where I have to park my mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: So glad I asked you that question. Thank you, Lysa. That was -- I think somebody really needed to hear that.

All right, girl, we're going to get to our last question. This is so life giving. We've got all sorts of people listening right now. Some love somebody who's in an unwanted divorce, somebody right now is in the middle of it, somebody's just been through it. Like, we're all in different places. But I want you to speak to that person who is in the middle of all this and she feels completely alone in this unwanted divorce. What is that last thing that you would say to her?

Lysa TerKeurst: Well, I would say don't go at this alone. Find somebody who understands the unique dynamics that you're in, whether that's a counselor or a wise friend who understands some of the harsh realities of whatever the dynamics are at play here causing the destruction in your marriage. And I would not go at it alone. I would tell that friend exactly what has been done to you, what that has been said to you, all the ways that you've been hurt.

And then my prayer is that friend would take a step back and say these two things. And if you don't have a friend saying it, I'll say it to you. I believe you. I believe you. What happened to you was wrong and it shouldn't have happened. And if no one else ever dares to bear witness to your pain and says that they are sorry for all that you've had to endure, I'll say it. Friend, I'm so sorry. I'm so, so sorry.

And now, just like I said before, you deserve to stop suffering because of what another person has done to you. So put a stake in the ground and say, My decision to heal will never be dependent on the choices of another person. My decision to heal is my declaration that I will forgive, that I will live, and that I will trust God in the process.

KC Wright: Don't go it alone. Tell a trusted friend what was done to you, what was said to you. Be honest about the ways you were hurt. Let someone bear witness to your pain, then put your stake in the ground. Your healing is not dependent on his apology or her repentance. You can declare, "I will heal."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. "I will heal."

And by the way, if you're the one who loves somebody who's going through this unwanted divorce, don't treat it as a spectator sport. I thought this was really good that Lysa pointed out, you know, where you're trying to figure out, ooh, which side of the story wins? Let's just be listeners. Let's just listen and love. Let's be present in their life. Don't try to be the fixer, the judge, or the therapist. They are professionals who can give legal and psychological counseling, who can do all those things. Okay? But no one can fill the friend role better than you, so be that friend that she or he needs.

KC Wright: And get her a book.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right. right.

KC Wright: As Lysa said, it's a short one, so it's an easy resource to read. In fact, you can win one right now at 413podcast.com/386, or go to Jennifer's Instagram. Follow her for daily encouragement and behind-the-scenes goodness. But you can find her @jennrothschild right there on Instagram to win this book.

Plus, the Show Notes will link you to other Lysa books, and you can read a transcript of this conversation all right there for you. I think this one is going to be shared a lot. It needs to be shared.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it should be.

KC Wright: You know someone in your life with a broken heart from divorce, and this conversation can be a part of their healing, and all it takes is for you to do your part and share it.

All right. We know this was a tough one for some of us to listen to, but remember, you can not only survive an unwanted divorce, you can heal, you can thrive, you can walk in victory because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can, our friends. Yes, you can.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Unlearn the Lies I Believe? With Gary Thomas [Episode 385]

Pastor Gary Thomas: And if we Christians would recognize the fate that God has rescued us from, eternal separation from him, and what that world would [audio cuts out] like that, that we would have to live life without the comfort of the Holy Spirit, without the affirmation of God, living under the wrath of God. That we would have to live being slaves to our sin, not having the power to say no to our sin. If we would see what we've been rescued from, then we would recognize whatever situation we're in, God has treated us better than we deserve.

Jennifer Rothschild: Pastor and best-selling author Gary Thomas knows from personal and pastoral experience the letdown that lots of us feel when it comes to our daily experience as Christians. I mean, we really want to grow closer to God, don't we? But often we just grow more confused and wonder why. Why is it that our faith isn't as satisfying as we had hoped? But the key to the truly abundant new life that God has promised us starts with unlearning lies that we don't even know we have believed.

Well, today Gary is going to help us recognize the deceptions that keep us from the life that the Bible promises us by revealing 12 lies that we need to unlearn. Ooh, get ready, my friends. We are going to renew our minds and renew our lives. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. We're glad you're with us. Happy New Year. I know it's been a couple weeks, but it's still new. And we're talking about renewing our minds by unlearning lies today. What a great time. I love new years, new things.

So in case you are new to us, welcome. Jennifer here. And my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life. And you heard that voice. That's my Seeing Eye Guy. That's KC Wright.

KC Wright: Hey, hey.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's just two friends --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- one topic and --

Jennifer and KC: -- zero stress.

Jennifer Rothschild: So if you're stressed, take a break. You don't need to feel stressed for 30 minutes here.

KC Wright: Inhale/exhale, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? Anyway, new year. KC and I were just talking about a word of the year. He doesn't have one yet.

KC Wright: Right. Well, you know, several years ago some pastor came up with the idea, instead of making all these resolutions that are created in January and they end, they fall off by February --

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm, they do.

KC Wright: -- that you should just make and pray for that one word that would be the theme, the banner over your life for the entire new year.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which I love that idea. And last year yours was "strong," right?

KC Wright: My word was "strong." Everywhere I went, it was the word "strong." It was awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and here's what's interesting, KC. You are strong. Like, he's Mr. CrossFit now. You know, and we have inventory here in our warehouse, a/k/a the garage, and KC helps lift all these boxes of books. I mean, you are strong, man.

KC Wright: I want to be. But, you know, also spiritually strong.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what's most important.

KC Wright: Yeah. There you go. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Do you have one yet this year, or are you still thinking and praying?

KC Wright: I think I'm going to choose the word "forward."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I like "forward."

KC Wright: Still praying about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. We press on.

KC Wright: But "forward." I like "forward."

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Moving forward.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Well, then I have a surprise. I have three words of the year.

KC Wright: Drum roll, please.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let me preface my three words of the year by telling you what I did on my birthday. Okay. I had a birthday in December --

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I went with some friends to Kansas City. And we had this big weekend planned. Because there were four of us, and three of us were December birthdays. So one of the goals was to go to Cheesecake Factory.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Y'all, they have the best low carb, low sugar cheesecake.

KC Wright: They do. They do.

Jennifer Rothschild: I loved it. That was my whole goal. And then I wanted to go to Trader Joe's because I like their snacks and their skincare, so we went to Trader Joe's.

KC Wright: Those are my two favorite places.

Jennifer Rothschild: Of course, KC, because we were separated at birth.

KC Wright: We're twinning again.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. But this we may not be twinning about.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because the other thing we did --

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- we all got tattoos. And my tattoo is three words. Okay, I'm going to show you, KC. It's three words. Can you read it?

KC Wright: I love it.

Jennifer and KC: "It Is Well."

Jennifer Rothschild: "It Is Well." That is my tattoo.

KC Wright: I love it. I really do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Now, for those of you who are thinking that's the best thing ever, I know, me too. But those of you who are a little hesitant and might even be borderline judging, okay, let me just explain some things to you.

KC Wright: Yes. Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Max Lucado, America's pastor, the most spiritually awesome man I know, got a tattoo in 2025. If Max can do it, Jennifer can do it.

KC Wright: Joyce Meyer, she stood on stage at her women's conference and showed hers off.

Jennifer Rothschild: What was hers? Do you even remember?

KC Wright: I don't.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Oh, and mine, by the way, it's on my forearm, y'all. It's in a -- because I do want to be respectful. So, like, when I'm on stage teaching, most of the time I'm in long sleeves or jackets, so it doesn't show. But what a great witnessing tool.

KC Wright: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: So when I'm wearing short sleeves, it'll be like, Oh, what does that mean? Well, let me tell you what that means. God has made it well with my soul --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- even though it wasn't well with my circumstances. So there you go.

KC Wright: Oh, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know. So those are my three words for the year.

KC Wright: Love it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or for the rest of my life.

KC Wright: Life. For real.

Jennifer Rothschild: Until it fades.

KC Wright: For real.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. But on to another thing.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And by the way, I will have a picture for you on social media so you can see my big milestone.

But this is also something cool this new year that we're doing. We have a partner...

Okay, my alma mater, Palm Beach Atlantic University, has decided to partner with the 4:13 Podcast, because the university and the podcast and our ministry, we just share the same mission and the same heart. So you're going to hear, in the middle of this conversation with Gary Thomas, an opportunity for me to introduce you to my university, and it's going to be really fun. But for now, I just wanted to say how grateful I am to have Palm Beach Atlantic University on board as part of the 4:13 Podcast. So welcome.

KC Wright: Yes, welcome.

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome, PBA. And also now, let's intro and welcome Gary Thomas.

KC Wright: Gary Thomas is a best-selling author and international speaker who strives to bring people closer to Christ and closer to each other. He has sold over 2 million copies of his books, and they have been translated into over a dozen languages. Gary currently serves as a teaching pastor at Cherry Hills Community Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado. Gary enjoys running in his spare time and has completed -- I'm so impressed with this -- 14 marathons --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I'm -- wow.

KC Wright: -- including the Boston Marathon three times.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

KC Wright: Go, Gary.

Jennifer Rothschild: You go.

KC Wright: He and his wife, Lisa, have been married for 41 years, and they have three adult children and two grandchildren.

All right. This is going to be so good, like it always is. Here is Gary and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Gary, we're going to be talking about your new book. And for those listening, the title is "The Life You Were Reborn to Live." I love that. And so what it does is dismantling 12 lies that rob your intimacy with God. Okay, so that's huge.

So let's start with this, because I think this is a big deal. The problem with lies is that we don't know it. Like, we can't identify them because they're so familiar to us. So start with that, Gary. How do we know if we're believing lies?

Pastor Gary Thomas: Jennifer, I think we need to become just devoted students and learners of Scripture. We need to assume that we're being lied to hundreds of times a day. I grew up, and there were a lot of cultural lies, like margarine is better for you than butter --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Pastor Gary Thomas: -- cracking your knuckles causes arthritis. It doesn't. It might cause divorce. It doesn't cause arthritis. Things that we just accepted are true that we now know aren't.

And I think that same thing is happening to us spiritually. Paul warns us in Romans 12:2, don't conform to the pattern of this world. Another way to translate world -- it's "aion" in Greek -- is "age." And Paul has this vision that the world wants to shape us. You will think this, you will believe this, you will value this, you will focus on this so that we become good little citizens of the world. And he says you must not let that happen, but be transformed -- this is active -- by the renewing of your mind.

Well, what's the best place to renew our mind? It's to go into Scripture, where we know, I believe, when Scripture speaks, God speaks. Now, we have to understand it. Poetry is poetry. Proverbs are general truths, not absolute commandments. But properly reading and understanding Scripture, I think, is our lifeline. Because if we begin to believe a lie, we'll live a lie, and our whole life can crumble accordingly.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's so good. And I think sometimes we just -- it's almost like we're the frog in the boiling water. We don't realize that the lies are seeping in and we're believing them until all of a sudden we can't breathe and we're like, What has happened? And so I'm glad you're going to deal with dismantling some lies.

But, you know, you just mentioned casually and for fun, like, the world's lies, like margarine versus butter. Okay? But I'm curious, when you're talking about lies in this book, are these lies that you're talking about that we believe, are they always like worldly lies, like you are what you do kind of thing, or are they also some spiritual lies that we believe?

Pastor Gary Thomas: No. I believe I've heard several of them in the church. One of the lies I talk about is dismantling a self-centered salvation, where I grew up thinking that Jesus lived a perfect life and died on the Cross so that my sins could be forgiven and I could live with him in eternity. Now, that's a true statement, but it's not a complete statement. Paul would add 2 Corinthians 5:15, "And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for him who died for them and was raised again. Or Jesus in Matthew 6:33, "Seek first the Kingdom of God."

And so it's not just about being saved, it's about being enlisted. It's not just talking about the Cross, it's talking about the Kingdom. It's not just about waiting to go to heaven, it's about being filled with the spirit to bring heaven to earth. So that's a whole different view of life that we could spend our whole lives, instead of waiting for heaven, that we're here to be servants of heaven, to help others experience God's goodness.

Another lie that I think I heard in church, that will surprise some people because of what I've written on so much in marriage and family, is Dismantling Family First. That while I believe family living is essential and should be a good focus, in some sectors I think we've made an idol out of our family.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And when we do that, we don't love our families as well as we might. Jesus claims complete allegiance.

And, Jennifer, when I dealt with the Scriptures where Jesus warned that some families will be torn apart by faith, that son-in-laws will be turned against their mother-in-laws and parents against their children, Jesus even mentions in the Book of Matthew a husband and a wife. We have to come to terms that Jesus said, Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? It's those who hear the Word of God and obey it. He does put the spiritual family above the physical family.

Now, that's not to downplay the importance of the earthly family. But if we don't prioritize our spiritual family and God as our heavenly Father over every other relationship, then we'll fail to love our families best. And so that was a difficult lie for me to grapple with, one that I believe I heard first in the church, not so much from the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting, as I'm hearing this too, Gary, like, your whole paradigm is the truth of Scripture. But you go further. Because an incomplete truth in Scripture then can create a lie that will live --

Pastor Gary Thomas: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- and I just don't think we recognize it. And so I'm curious for you -- like, those are some very powerful and difficult lies that I can see that we believed in Christendom. But I'm curious for you personally, what lie is it that makes you stumble that you've believed, or that you have believed, and what did you do or are you doing about it?

Pastor Gary Thomas: I think two lies from this book that impacted me the most was not understanding the path to true peace and the sense of feeling entitled when I never would have thought of myself as entitled.

When we go back to peace, I don't think as Christians we emphasize peace enough. The Bible tells us in Isaiah 9:6 that the Messiah would be the Prince of Peace. So what does that mean that God says when the Messiah comes, peace will come with him? And the highest blessing in the Old Testament ended with peace. You've heard this many times. Number 6:24-26. "The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine on you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace."

In the Old Testament, they were longing for the coming of peace. And think about it, it was a violent world. You didn't know when you would be attacked or where you would be attacked or how you would be attacked. It could be an enemy, it could be a plague, it could be a famine, a drought, you name it. And so it says but when the Messiah comes, you can finally live with peace. You can let go of this sense that the next shoe is always about to drop.

Nineteen of 21 New Testament letters begin or end with an exhortation to or a blessing based on peace. Now, where the world lies is it thinks, yeah, peace is something to value, but you get peace by fixing everything in your life so that you're comfortable, so that you don't have any ongoing ailments, you have a certain level of financial security, all your family members are good with you and they're all following the Lord, the person that you voted for is in charge of whatever government you're most concerned about. And so we think to get peace, we strive to make all of those things come true. But biblical peace isn't situational; it's relational. It's when the Lord comes, he brings his peace. Jesus says, "My peace I give you."

And so in the book -- I know we don't have time to go here in a short podcast -- but I lean heavily on Henry Drummond, who wrote an incredible book a few hundred years ago on the recipe. What does that mean? How then can I experience peace?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, no, you got to tell us.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Well, it's really long. But what he says -- again, I'll just try to summarize.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, summarize it.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Restlessness has a cause is what he says. So restfulness has to be understanding the cause of restlessness. And one of the great causes of restlessness is our pride and our ambition. If I don't worry about how others view me, if I'm content with how God views me, then when somebody slanders me or attacks me, I'm not going to lose my peace. If I think my security is based in my reputation or how others think of me and that reputation is sullied, I have no peace.

And so he talks about the humility and gentleness of Jesus. Comes from Matthew when Jesus I said, "I'm gentle and humble in heart." If we're truly humble, we're going to be able to live a life of peace. And then gentleness comes from just not having to put ourselves above others. We don't have to strive above others. That's what demolishes our peace.

So here's an example of that. I talked with a physician, young, successful orthopedic surgeon, originally from East India. He taught internationally. Really good surgeon. He had a patient come in who had a really messed up elbow, and he did the best he could and he knew it was never going to be perfect. And the patient had an enterprising clever lawyer who sued him for malpractice for just $50,000. Now, the reason I say that's clever is that a plaintiff lawyer is going to know that the hospital system is going to say it's going to cost us five times that to defend this. $50,000 is just give me a little bit of money and I'll go away.

But he was at the start of his career, he was teaching internationally. He thought, Am I going to lose my practice? What will this do for my reputation? It'll be on my record forever. And he told me, "Gary, I lost two years of losing sleep, living with anxiety, struggling with anger. How could this guy do this? I know I did a good job." Just this entire sense of disease. Eventually the hospital did settle, they paid the $50,000. And so I asked him -- this had happened a decade prior. I go, "So, Vian, how much did this malpractice impact your career from a scale of zero, meaning not at all, to 100, meaning it was devastating?" And he said, "Yeah, about a negative 10."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Pastor Gary Thomas: But he recognized, "But it cost me two years of not focusing on my family, of living with anxiety, of having this sense of disease." Because he thought peace was situational. If I can fix this, I'll have peace. When he understood that peace is relational, even if it's not okay, I'm okay because I know the one who holds me.

Everybody listening to us can have peace right now. Even if you don't know if the diagnosis is going to be cancer or not, even if you don't know if your loved one's going to get well, if you're going to find the job at the right time, if your spouse isn't going to leave you, all of those things that we think we have to fix so that we can have peace, Jesus says, "No. I bring my peace to you now." It's a glorious recipe to understand that peace is relational, not situational.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's so powerful. That alone right there -- I mean, we could stop now, because that alone right there was just so powerful.

But we're not going to stop right now because I want to hear about entitlement. But before -- I just realized, you know, the listener's probably I'm thinking, okay, I'm into this, I want to know the lies. So there's 12 of them. So if you could just kind of list them. Because I'm hoping that as we listen even to them, we'll be able to identify what might -- at least it'll make us think. And then I want us to move into entitlement. Okay? So list the lies for us, Gary.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Sure. Well, we talked about the first one, Dismantling Restlessness, learning the true path to peace.

The second one I like, Dismantling The Need To Be In Control. Learn the way of the wind. We can't control everything in life. It's sort of -- life in Jesus is more like living in the jungle than on an automated factory line, assembly line. Jesus says, you know, the wind blows where it pleases, you don't know where it comes from or where it's going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.

And so for me, I've always tried to control things, but realizing I need spiritual adventure. My marriage needs spiritual adventure. Churches need spiritual adventure. But that means letting God control, not me. That was a wonderful lie to let go of.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: We talked about Dismantling Family First, learning the preeminence of Father God.

This was a big one for me, Dismantling Isolation. That's number four. Becoming relational instead of isolationist.

Dismantling Self-Centered Salvation. I talked about that. That it's not just about waiting for heaven; it's understanding our role of service.

Dismantling The Need For Comfort. Learn the value of adversity. I didn't realize, Jennifer, how addicted I am to comfort. And it's not just surrendering to adversity, but recognizing we all need adversity, whether it's social adversity, physical adversity, emotional adversity, God uses those things to grow us. Instead of trying to make the discomfort go away, sometimes it's about learning what lessons we need to learn through the discomfort.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, good.

Pastor Gary Thomas: I'm not saying you should continue to live with an illness that could be cured or what not, but no longer [audio cuts out].

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Dismantling the demand for a sin-free life and, instead, learning the lessons that struggles against sin can teach us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I love this. I need you to take a minute with this, because I think we all feel like we live in defeat if we struggle with sin. So explain this.

---

[PARTNER INTRO - Palm Beach Atlantic University]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, my friends, I am not sure if I've ever told you this, but I went to Palm Beach Atlantic University in West Palm Beach, Florida, and that one choice, oh, man, it shaped my life in all the best ways. Palm Beach Atlantic is a Christian University located in dreamy West Palm Beach, Florida, overlooking the intracoastal waterway. Oh, it is so beautiful there.

But the most beautiful part is that PBA offers a Christ-centered, academically rigorous education that equips students to lead fulfilling lives through learning, leadership, and service. That's what it did for me, and I want that for you and your people. So check it out at 413podcast.com/pba. All right. Now let's get back to this great conversation.

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Pastor Gary Thomas: Well, it was so refreshing reading so many of the Christian classics talking about how the best of us will be tempted the most. Because Satan lets those who aren't doing any damage to his kingdom go free. But Paul says in Romans 7 -- which I believe he was talking about his experience -- "I hate what I do. I don't do what I want to do, I do what I don't want to do." The Bible is clear, there is no one righteous, not even one. That's from Romans. James says, "We all stumble in many ways." James 3:2, "We all" -- that means there isn't exception -- "stumble." Not just occasionally, in many ways.

And so why do I need to learn that? Two reasons that I can think of...

One, learning what lessons I can glean from my struggles against sin, knowing they're never going to go away, so that I can face them instead of deny them. There are some Christian movements that have talked about perfection, but what I find is that they so diminish the concept of sin that they ignore its remaining power.

And I just spoke to a group of pastors last week, and I said the danger is we think if we can avoid the things that might get us fired, if I'm not looking at porn, if I'm not stealing money from the church, if I'm not getting drunk or high, then I'm good against sin. But Paul says in Colossians 3, take off anger, rage, malice, slander, filthy language, and lying. How many times does that slip in? He said, and then put on -- this is what holiness is -- compassion, kindness, gentleness, patience, and love. It's a sin to be impatient. It's a sin not to be kind. It's a sin to be judgmental over compassion.

The reason we want to get rid of a lot of the quick physical sins is so that we can become more aware of, I think, some of the spiritual sins that are polluting our souls, damaging our relationships, impairing our ministry, so that we could be the holy people God has called us to be.

The second part of that is so that I live with Jesus as my hero. I will never be the hero. There's only one hero in Scripture, and that's Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Every major figure in Scripture was embarrassed and had their clay feet exposed except for Jesus. Even John the Baptist. We didn't see him sin, but then he had to ask his disciples, Is he really the one? Can you ask him? I think he might be.

But Paul talked about his great struggles. Abraham has to live with eternity people knowing he offered his wife to two men just to save himself. Peter's humiliations are there. David lives with the fact that everybody knows he had his share of issues. But we all find refuge and grace and acceptance in Jesus. And so we don't have to present ourselves as the hero to our church, to our spouse, to our kids, we point to the One True Hero who is Jesus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And that took a while for me to get over that one, to accept and to be public. Yeah, I'm going to struggle with this, I'm going to struggle with that. But it really did help me understand there's much more to sin than the two or three ones we focus on.

And second, living with Jesus as the hero and not me being the hero.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Because if we could pull it off on our own, we'd be our own hero. And, yeah, there's something about it, constantly acquainting it -- acquainting -- when we struggle with sin, it acquaints us with our need for Christ and draws us toward it.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, yeah. But I know for me, I think, oh, here we go again, one more defeat. But I'm going to look at it more as an invitation to just press into Jesus and receive the grace and be grateful he's the hero. That's really good, Gary.

I don't even know how many you listed. How many you got left there?

Pastor Gary Thomas: There was seven.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay,

Pastor Gary Thomas: Eight is Dismantling Apathy Toward The Church. I think this is a common one. They say, I love Jesus, I can't put up with his church.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. I've heard it a million times.

Pastor Gary Thomas: But to love Jesus is to love his bride. Jennifer, I know you have a great marriage, too. I've met your husband, he's wonderful. But if somebody said, Gary, I love you, I just hate your wife, I don't want anything to do with her, I'm like, well, yeah, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, we don't love each other. Hmm-mm, no.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And it's recognizing Paul's attitude. I'm a servant of the church, I work hard for the church, I go through all of these Scriptures. We have a mercenary attitude. What can the church give me? And Paul was the opposite. We want to suck the marrow out of a church and then we leave for a better church, quote/unquote. Paul was like, no, I will give my blood. I will donate my blood for the health of the church. And he did. He went from being the persecutor to the persecuted to serve the church. And so we have to dismantle apathy toward the church.

Nine, Dismantling A Materialistic Worldview, learning to worship a supernatural God. It's really a chapter about angels.

Jennifer, I'm embarrassed how little I've spoken or written about angels. Because they're so lampooned and they're so misunderstood. But when you go from Genesis to Revelation, how every major work of God, angels were heavily involved. And the New Testament teaching, the angels are still involved. And sharing stories of contemporary saints that had experiences that have no other explanation than angelic influence. Remembering angels helps you go on the offense instead of playing defense. That it's a special thing that says if you put your hope in God, then he will send his servants to protect you. In the New Testament we're told that angels are sent as servants for those who follow God.

And so one widow who read the book told me, "Gary, I cried tears in this chapter because when my husband died, I felt so vulnerable. I'm a senior citizen, a woman alone. And realizing that these are powerful warriors that God has sent to protect me," she goes, "I've never lived with this assurance before." So when we're embarrassed to talk about the reality of angels, we withhold a lot of good, a lot of comfort from God's people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Okay, that alone is worth reading. I'm not -- I don't do angels much. Like, when you were describing that, I thought I need to read that chapter. Okay, that's powerful.

Pastor Gary Thomas: It blew me away, Jennifer. It was ignoring something that had no business to be ignored. If Scripture emphasizes something as much as it does angels, we should emphasize it.

I grew up in a denomination that you'd be afraid of demons and demonic possession and this or that. For every mention of demons in the Bible, there are about six or seven mentions of angels. So if we preach according to Scripture, we'll mention angels six or seven times for every one time we warn people about demons.

Jennifer Rothschild: Word. Good.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Okay. Ten, Dismantling The Allure of Earthly Splendor, learn the rich toward God life. How the world views us, what the world values is so opposed to what God values and what God will reward in eternity that we just have to become like those horses that run with blinders, where we don't even -- we're just not looking at earthly glory, we're looking for what God pleases. That really helps me with what I value.

We're going to talk -- maybe I've run out of time, but --

Jennifer Rothschild: No, you haven't.

Pastor Gary Thomas: -- Dismantling A Sense of Entitlement and learning what it means to be rescued.

The last and 12th one is last but not least. It's Dismantling Complacent Ignorance and learning the value of wisdom. We can understand the Gospel in five minutes. But Proverbs tells us wisdom is worth more than gold and silver. And, Jennifer, I could say this gently to your many listeners. How many of us spend far more time thinking about how we accumulate a number for retirement more than will I be wiser at the end of this year than I was at the start of the year?

Scripture says we should value wisdom over wealth. And it says it may cost you. Though it costs all you have, get understanding. It'll cost us some screen time. It may cost us some frivolous entertainment. But it says it will exalt us. The best thing we can give to our spouse, one of the best, most wonderful things we can give to our kids is greater wisdom that we could share with others. And so I've just found that we just don't value the accumulation of wisdom as much as Scripture says we should.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So what I'm loving about this, Gary, a lot of times when we're talking about lies, they're just more on the shallow end, we splash around on the shallow end. And they're lies about our identity or things like that. Which is very important. I am not in any way diminishing that. But what I love is you dove right into the deep end and you're getting at the real stuff of life, the core of who we are. And so I just can tell, I can't wait to read this. I'm so appreciative of what you're sharing here.

And so you did mention the entitlement. Okay. So I want to know about that, because you struggled with it yourself. But I also want to know how, like, it is -- because I think you even say it's like the greatest spiritual trap of our age. So give us an idea of what that means and why it's such a big deal.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Nobody likes to think of themselves as entitled. But as a pastor, when I talk to people, entitlement comes out. And what entitlement is -- it comes from a sense that life should be this way. God owes it to me. If I'm faithful to him, that he'll fix this or change that. And that if life isn't the way we want it to be, that God hasn't already given us more than we should deserve.

So I've talked to some singles in their 30s and they say, Look, I've kept myself in shape, I haven't compromised by marrying -- considering marrying a nonbeliever. I'm responsible financially, I'm a good relational person. God hasn't brought somebody for me to marry. I feel like I did my job keeping myself pure, living a responsible life. How come I'm still single? Or parents. Look, we trained our children up in the way of the Lord, we brought them to church, we prayed with them. The Proverb says to do that. We have a couple children that aren't following the Lord. We did our part. How come God hasn't done his?

I've even seen people use their sin and blame God. Look, I should be able to spend everything I make, run up debt on the credit card, never save for retirement or emergencies because God says he will provide for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, all I need.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And so when finally the bottom drops out, where is he?

And even -- this might sound extreme, but here it is. A guy wouldn't put it in these words, but basically he's saying he's entitled to drink and then drive, but not get a DUI, because he would say, Well, I don't know that I've ever done it before. I didn't think I was that drunk. I know people all around me who don't go to church, who don't tithe, that have never once been pulled over. Why couldn't God give me a break? And that entitlement thinking comes from us not realizing what God has already saved us from.

And I use this powerful story from Fyodor Dostoevsky, the great Russian novelist, who almost never got to write any of his novels. Because when he was in his 20s, he was arrested. He had just done some non-fiction pamphlets for what the Russian government called anti-government activities. And so they sentenced him to a firing squad. So here he is in his 20s looking down the barrel of a gun, that in seconds would take away his life, thinking it was all over, and then there was a last-minute reprieve and they sentenced him to four years in a Siberian labor camp.

Now, we laugh about a Siberian labor camp like it's the worst thing you could imagine, because it kind of is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Nine months of winter, no days off, heartbreaking labor. But Dostoevsky had a sweet spirit, and it came through his other novels, because he didn't compare being in a Siberian labor camp to being in Santa Barbara. He compared it -- I should be dead. And he realized that.

And if we Christians would recognize the fate that God has rescued us from, eternal separation from him, and what that world would [audio cuts out] like that, that we would have to live life without the comfort of the Holy Spirit, without the affirmation of God, living under the wrath of God. That we would have to live being slaves to our sin, not having the power to say no to our sin. If we would see what we've been rescued from, then we would recognize whatever situation we're in, God has treated us better than we deserve.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Pastor Gary Thomas: We talked earlier about going into Scripture. The Bible is honest. It says what we can expect is that our sin without Jesus would separate us from God. That's Isaiah 59:2. Accordingly, we deserve the wrath of God, Romans 1:18. We're told that we live in a fallen world where relationships will be hard, Genesis 3:16. The struggle against sin will be fierce and ongoing, Romans 7:15. The non-believing world will persecute us, John 15:18. And according to 1 Corinthians 15, our bodies will get sick and experience death.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: The Bible is honest, this is what you will face. Jesus doubled down when he said, in John 16:33, "In this world, you will have trouble." And Paul set the bar very low when he said in 1 Timothy 6:8, "If we have food and clothing, we will be content with that." And so Paul said, That's all I need, if God feeds me and I'm clothed. I might be sick. He had, you know, that thorn in the flesh. I might have people that want to kill me, I might have no finances set aside, but I've learned how to be content with that. And when I realize what the Bible promises and what I expect, it raises a sense of gratitude and worship.

I was -- and I know you spend a lot of time in hotels, as I do, Jennifer. It's what we do when we travel.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: I was in a place and it was the worst shower of my life. It was either scalding hot or freezing cold. Have you ever had that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes. Yes.

Pastor Gary Thomas: And then when I got out, I realized the worst shower I've ever had is better than the best shower the Apostle Paul ever had.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Pastor Gary Thomas: Who lived in prisons, who was in the open sea for an entire night. Who was hunted and persecuted his entire life. I live with such entitlement, which robs me of gratitude. It robs God of my worship where I would be exuberant. We've got to get away from a sense of entitlement and to remember what we've been rescued from already.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. You know, and when I hear you -- you know, of course, I can identify. We all can. And so I can say this about me, and anyone who wants to agree can. But for me, when I have an entitlement mentality, it's because I'm selfish. Bottom line, it's all about me. And I've told my boys growing up, selfish people are not happy people. You want to be unhappy? You get really into yourself and you're going to be the most unhappy person. And when you think about it, you're never happy when you've got an entitlement mentality. You just aren't.

And then I also think, Gary, of Job. I mean, how can you read the Book of Job, right? He says, "Though you slay me, yet will I praise you." Right there is our standard. That is the standard for not having an entitlement mentality.

Okay, my brother, this is so good. I could talk to you forever. And I know my people are getting your book because -- just hang on, 4:13ers. We're almost done here. Because then you can go to the Show Notes and get the book. But I'm going to get to our last question, Gary. Okay?

Pastor Gary Thomas: All right.

Jennifer Rothschild: So someone listening, they're like, okay, wow, I have recognized a lie, or two, that they believed. Okay? So what do they do now? When this podcast ends, what is the very first thing that they can do to begin the dismantling?

Pastor Gary Thomas: Well, I don't want to sound like a shameless huckster, but it's why I wrote the book. That we could discover the lies that we -- like margarine and butter, you know, or wait an hour before you go swimming after you eat -- that we followed slavishly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Pastor Gary Thomas: First we have to not be conformed to the pattern of this world. Identify the lie. Then Paul says, Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Find out what the truth is that the lie is trying to cover up. What is the power that the lie is trying to keep you from? So we talk about entitlement. That lie will keep you from gratitude and worship. I believe when entitlement drops, happiness rises. The lie that you have to fix your life, that peace is situational, is actually keeping you from one of the best blessings of being a Christian, experiencing true relational peace.

So it's -- we don't often know what the lie is, and that's part of the purpose of the book, is to help you identify, man, I believe that, and, oh, I fell into that, and, yes, I never considered that, so that then we cannot be conformed to the world, but can be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, man, as soon as I finished this conversation with Gary, I downloaded his audiobook. He reads it. And I just sped through, like, two chapters while eating peanut butter and jelly. I mean, it was amazing. So before my conversation with Gary, I had only been able to skim it. And, wow, I'm so glad I am getting to listen to every single word in the audiobook. It is so good, you guys.

Okay. In fact, let me just give you one quote from the beginning. If there's one thing Gary says that a Christian cannot take for granted, it's the truth. What we believe impacts us emotionally, spiritually, relationally, and physically. Okay, right? See what I mean? This is why we want to unlearn these lies.

KC Wright: So, so good. So let's review real fast. He said identity those lies, our people. Find out the truth that the lie is covering up. Get in the Word. Read Gary's book and you can un-conform yourself to the world --

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that phrase.

KC Wright: -- and be transformed by the renewing of your mind one truth at a time.

See why you need this book? We'll have a link to it at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/385. And as usual, you can enter to win a copy at Jennifer's Instagram. So go there and enter to win it. And if you haven't, please leave us a review. Your reviews about the podcast really do make a difference.

Until next week, our people, we love you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we do.

KC Wright: Feel the podcast hug.

Jennifer Rothschild: Feel it.

KC Wright: You can unlearn those lies and replace them with truth, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you supernatural strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know what? Somebody -- one of my friends said, "You should get a "4:13" as your tattoo."

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I was like, "I love that, but I still think I'm going to stick" -- you know, I wanted the "It Is Well."

KC Wright: "It Is Well."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I mean -- now, I will tell you, you pay more per character, so it was a little more expensive than four colon one three, but, you know. Hey, all those of you out there are thinking now you're inspired. Max has done it, Joyce Meyer, Jennifer Rothschild. Come on, come on.

KC Wright: Jeremy Camp.

Jennifer Rothschild: Jeremy Camp. Well, he's cool. He's got nice arms.

KC Wright: Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I don't. I'm going to -- like, hmm-mm.

KC Wright: No, you do have nice arms.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Well, yeah, mm-hmm.

KC Wright: But "It Is Well" -- "It Is Well" is more meaningful for you because --

Jennifer Rothschild: Big time.

KC Wright: -- every time I see that phrase, I think of you because of your quote. "It may not be well with my circumstance, but it's well with my soul."

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: I love it.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Recover From Bad Decisions? With Nicole C. Mullen [Episode 384]

Nicole C. Mullen: My hope, honestly, is Christ, because the rest is changeable. Whether it's through death, divorce, separation, whether it's through -- whatever it might be. A bad choice that was not mine to make. And so I have gone through the peaks and the valleys, but my steady has been Christ. And so at the end of the day -- because if I give you any other hope, then you think the carrot may not be attainable for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Happy 2026, our 4:13ers. We are so glad you are starting this new year with us. And it is going to be a good one. And we are starting out with not just good, but great. Excellent, actually, because she is one of my favorite people. Nicole C. Mullen is on the podcast today. And she is talking about her latest book which is titled -- I love this title, listen up -- "It Is Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing." Great title, right?

Anyway, you know her as a singer-songwriter, but, oh, she is a certified Bible nerd, who knows the Word, and she can teach it. So today we are going to learn what the Bible says about making wise decisions, and she's going to give you all the biblical examples you will need and some straight-up Scripture guidance that you need.

So no matter what choices you are facing, or maybe no matter what choices you have made that you might regret, ooh, you are going to get all you need to know to manage all that well through the grace of God.

So, KC, here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can truly do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey. Aren't you glad you're here in this new year? New mercies, new beginnings, new year. But it's still just me and KC, your old friends in the podcast closet. Two friends just talking about one topic, with zero stress. I love new years.

And so if you've joined us brand new this year, I'm Jennifer. And along with KC, my Seeing Eye Guy, we just have a goal, one goal, and that is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable as you are living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. All that God has called you to be, all that God has called you to do, you can do through his power in you.

And new years give us an opportunity to kind of recalibrate, don't they, KC?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know? And I think it's interesting, we're starting a new year talking about maybe things that we regret and how we can recover, because we've all had them. But, oh, it's a new year, so it's full of hope.

But you know what, KC? I was thinking as I was thinking about what we're going to talk about with Nicole, I thought, what do I really regret in life? You know, the beautiful thing is, the longer you live, you still have things you regret. But they are so buried under the grace of God --

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that you don't feel the sting of them anymore --

KC Wright: Yeah. That's good.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- which is a gift.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But I did have one mortifying thing that came up in my mind, I will say, that if I could go back and tell my younger self to behave differently, I would have. And it's really not a big deal. Like, it wasn't sin or immoral or terrible, but it's just like I wish I had behaved differently. Okay, so here's what it was. I'm just going to tell everybody.

KC Wright: Oh, she going to spill that tea.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm going to spill the tea. All right. So I was a senior in college, Palm Beach Atlantic University. Big shout out to Palm Beach Atlantic. I was a psychology major. And they give all these academic awards, you know, at the end of a school year or at the end of a degree year. I don't know what it was. I can't remember, I'm too old now.

But anyway, I was not given the biggest academic award, but I was given some kind of award in the psychology department. So I was in this big conference room with all of these professors that I had had, like, six of them, and they were all saying really kind things to me. They presented me, like, half a dozen roses. I mean, it was the nicest thing.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I was so overwhelmed with absolute discomfort, I was so -- here I was a psych major, and I really needed to work on my own level of insecurity and self-awareness.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I was so awkward that literally when they finally finished their kind presentation, I said, "Thank you. Can I go now?" like I was ten years old. Like, here I was, 21 or '2 years old -- I don't know how old I was when I graduated from college -- but I was like -- what in the world? "Can I go now?" That is literally what I said. I regret that so much.

KC Wright: Yeah. We've all had a moment like that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? When you just feel like -- oh, I wish I could go back and say, "Jennifer, don't let your insecurity speak for you. Be a grownup." Anyway...

KC Wright: Open mouth, insert foot.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. It was so embarrassing. And they were all like, "Well, sure," thinking, why did we give her this award? Anyway...

That is such a small regret in the scheme of life. Like, I get it. Sometimes there are things we have done, choices we have made that are so much worse. I get it.

KC Wright: I think in my life, my biggest regret -- well, there's been many. But honestly, if you fly a plane over it, it's the decisions you make with an unrenewed mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh. Okay.

KC Wright: With an unrenewed mind --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes.

KC Wright: -- the things you did in your 20s, your 30s because you didn't have a renewed mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: And that only comes from the washing of the Word of God --

Jennifer Rothschild: It does. It does.

KC Wright: -- and a constant casting down thoughts and replacing lies with truth. Insert "Buy Jennifer's book" right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: But it's true, KC.

KC Wright: Yeah, it's an unrenewed mind.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you know, what is the Scripture that says that if we walk in the flesh, we're going to fulfill the desires of the flesh. But if we walk in the Spirit --

KC Wright: The Spirit.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that's when we fulfill the desires of the Spirit, which is how we want to live.

And, KC, I'm glad you said the word "renewed" for renewing our mind, because, honestly, Nicole is going to show us how we can move from regret to renewal, no matter what the choices or the consequences of those choices have been. So there is hope, my friends, for this new year for every bit of your life. So let's introduce Nicole and hear this great conversation.

KC Wright: Nicole C. Mullen, God's girl, woman of God. She's a multiple Dove award-winning and Grammy-nominated singer and songwriter, known worldwide for songs such as her soaring declaration of faith and hope in "Redeemer."

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't we love it?

KC Wright: Oh, my --

Jennifer Rothschild: Are you going to sing it? (Singing) And I know --

KC Wright: (Singing) -- my Redeemer lives.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. Now, that right there, my friends, that set you up to want to hear from Nicole. Because that was the bad singing of it, and now you'll get to know -- you'll get to hear the voice of the woman who can actually sing it. Okay, go ahead, KC.

KC Wright: Oh, I remember one year in Nashville. I had never heard of Nicole C. Mullen. I'm at the Gospel Music Association. And Nicole C. Mullen walks out on that stage and sings that song --

Jennifer Rothschild: Chills.

KC Wright: -- and your goosebumps gave birth to goosebumps.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: Anyway, "Redeemer," hello. What a song. Life-changing.

She began her career as a background singer before flourishing as a solo artist. Nicole has also become a sought-after speaker on stages across the globe, proclaiming the truth of Scripture and the power of God to bring healing and wholeness. Nicole made her acting debut in June of 2025 as Elizabeth Freeman in the Heroic Pictures film "American Miracle." Is there anything this woman cannot do?

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what I'm saying.

KC Wright: Anything?

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

KC Wright: Oh, my goodness. Okay, settle in for Nicole and J.R.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Nicole. Most of us know you as, obviously, the amazing singer-songwriter, mostly because of your song, like, from back in the day -- and it is still on the radio -- "Redeemer." Okay? Just for you people who landed on Planet Earth last week, yes, Nicole C. Mullen, (singing) and I know my Redeemer lives. That one. Okay?

Nicole C. Mullen: You better sing.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can't sing it like you, but I just want to make sure they know the song. Okay. Because that's how we know you, from that song. And many others, of course, not just that.

But, you know, that -- I was curious. Like, to me, that just puts you on this national -- international stage. And so I'm wondering how that impacted your path going forward, and I'm curious if you still sing the song. Because that's kind of like Michael W. Smith's "Friends." Like, do you still sing it? Give us an update on, like, how that changed your life and what you're doing now with that particular song and music in general.

Nicole C. Mullen: Okay. So just so you know, I think I'll be singing that song until I am 120 years old. I'll be singing, "I know that I know that I know," yes. So it is definitely a song that has changed my life. And it was also a song, Jennifer, that was born out of hardship.

Let me just back up and say, first of all, thank you for having me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Nicole C. Mullen: You know I love you two pieces. I love you to pieces and you're one of my all-time sheroes. You know that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same. Thank you, dear. Same.

Nicole C. Mullen: I want to say that, make sure I put that out there.

But, yeah, "Redeemer" was written in -- I think oftentimes we think that songs that may have impacted our lives, or people that we see from afar, we sometimes think that they just have, you know, dreamy lifestyles and everything is always roses and, you know, things of that nature. But I've found that in the hard times is where Christ shows up and where he shines the brightest.

And so in one of my night seasons -- you know, I'm sure we've all gone through them. I don't think anybody's going to leave this earth unscathed. And so we all have something that is redeemable. We have ashes that we need to give to Christ so that he can make a masterpiece out of.

And in the midst of my night season or night seasons is where Christ began to download a song of hope. And that song of hope was initially my own song that I sang, you know, in the midst of what I was going through as my song of hope, but I didn't know that he would allow my little seed of a song to become hope for many other people, millions of people around the world.

And so 25 years later, I'm still singing it because it is still true. No, it's not just still true, it is still truth. And it is still effective, so...

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, it is. And I can just imagine private Nicole singing that truth to your own soul, I know that my Redeemer lives. And that's from the Book of Job, isn't it? And at the end, he will stand on the earth.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. And though my body be destroyed, in my flesh I'm going to see God. You're right. And as you said, Jennifer, Job wrote it in the midst of his night season. He was not on a mountaintop. And after reading that story one day -- you know, and normally we don't read Job to be cheered up. It's not like one of those stories, oh, let me go and feel good about myself or good about life.

But I was led to it, I was drawn to it one day. And after I read it, I thought if Job can praise God in the midst of his night season, how much more can I, when I've only gone through an nth degree of what he's gone through?

And so I picked up my guitar that day and it became my sacrifice of praise. And I put it upon my altar of, you know, just -- of hardship. And I found that when I did that and when I do that, then it's like my perspective changes. You know, even if my scenario around me doesn't change, I'm changed because I see God in a greater way. So he's shown up and he has taken my broken pieces and he is working them into the masterpiece that he has already designed. And so for me, it is well with my soul.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love that you said, "It is well with my soul." And here's the thing, Nicole. He's done a good job taking all those broken pieces and making something even more beautiful.

And so, yes, we know you as music. And I love the truth of the Redeemer. But, see, like, if I didn't stop you, you'd just start preaching out of the Book of Job, because deep down you are a Bible nerd. I know this about you.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So let's move from your music, singing to writing. Because you've written this new book, and it's called "It's Never Wrong to Do the Right Thing." I love that title, by the way. And in it you open with a story that I think gives us a glimpse of this -- what you just called night season. And it was based kind of on a choice you made when you were just 20 years old that led to, ooh, such a dark time. So tell us about that, please, and then how you eventually got free from the shackles that it created.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. So when I was 20 -- you know, after going to Bible school in Dallas, Texas, and growing up in a healthy home where my parents loved Jesus -- you know, now I'm not in Cincinnati any longer, I'm in Dallas. And I meet this guy and I thought, okay, he was just like yeah. And he said the right things and he looked as if he was going to be able to, you know, play the right part. And when he proposed to me on the first date, I should have --

Jennifer Rothschild: Wait, wait. First date?

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. I know. That's what I call it. See, that's young and dumb. So you can be young, but you don't have to be dumb.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Nicole C. Mullen: But --

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, proposed on first date. Continue. This is juicy.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. And I should have -- and let me just say this before I tell you my answer.

My mindset was that I thought that the will of God was going to be something I just didn't want to do, so I would just reverse engineer. So if it was something I didn't want to do, I'd just say yes because that was God's will. Because I know a lot of people think that. It's crazy, but we kind of think that if I don't want to go to Africa -- you know, you hear that all the time, God's probably going to send me to Africa, but I don't want to -- well, that was -- even though I had a relationship with Christ and I loved him and I knew him, I kind of had acquired some stinking thinking along the way.

So when the pressure was put on me and the proposal was met, was given, it was given along with the caveat of "and if you say no, basically you're going to miss out on the will of God and you'll always have to settle for second best." So, Jennifer, the last thing my 20-year-old self wanted to do was settle for God's second best. And I didn't want to get married, but I thought this was probably the thing God wanted for me. Oh, I was so wrong.

Anyway, so I tried it out on my mom, my mom said, "No, this is not God." But at that moment my pride began to surface, because now I had to prove that I had heard from God when I had not. So I went ahead and said yes. And by the time I had said yes, it was the end of the year and I was weeks away from being 21.

And I didn't have the heart to tell my parents, who arrived at the wedding, that he had already hit me the first time. And so I just thought, well, he said he was sorry, so sorry means that I am to completely forget, right? Wrong. That there are no consequences, right? Wrong. That I am to trust him now, right? Wrong.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wrong, yeah.

Nicole C. Mullen: And so -- but that was what I thought. And so I chose, well, I'm going to forgive him and he said he'll never do it again. And then for the next three years, it was full of drama and drama. And, you know, there were a series of being punched in the face, pulled out of the bed, dragged by my heels, kicked in the ribs, just things of that nature, physical, emotional, and spiritual abuse.

And then, Jennifer, he would scream this question at me often. And he would ask me, he would say, "Nicole, what is your purpose in life?" And then he would answer, "That's your problem, you have no purpose in life."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh.

Nicole C. Mullen: But can I tell you that even in the midst of him yelling and screaming and punching, the seed of the Word of God that had been planted in me was stronger than the blows that were given to me. Because not for one second, Jennifer, did I ever think I did not have a purpose, even though I knew that he was a puppet and the enemy of our souls was the hand underneath the puppet trying to beat the purpose of God out of my life, trying to silence the voice that God had given me, trying to intimidate me out of the will of God. It was really the enemy using him as a tool against me.

But in the midst of that, the Lord would comfort me with his Word. He would remind me of what had been spoken over me in the past. He would remind me of what he was able to do in the future. And I knew that if I wanted whatever God had on reserve for me, I would have to clear the path, to the best of my ability, from any unforgiveness, and so I would have to forgive him. And so after every beating, I did just that.

And eventually the Lord delivered me and the Lord showed me that I didn't have to have my own purpose. Because according to Romans 8:28, he worked all things together for my good. And he's still working them together for my good. Even things that are not good. And he said because I love him, I am called, not according to Nicole C. Mullen's purpose, but according to his purpose. And that was all I needed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's powerful. So let's stay in that setting for just another uncomfortable minute here, because none of us want to hear that this is what you went through. But clearly you're not there anymore.

Nicole C. Mullen: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So for the person who might have a similar situation -- and it may not -- you got it on all levels, dude. You got emotional, spiritual, and physical abuse, like, all of it at once. Somebody listening may not have all of it at once, but they may have one of them, and they're kind of waking up and going, oh, wait a minute. You forgave this person --

Nicole C. Mullen: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- but you still left.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And can you speak to the person who is struggling in the midst of this. What do I do? The person says they're a Christian, but they are being abusive. What do I do? Nicole, just give us a little bit of an insight. What does she do?

Nicole C. Mullen: Perfect. Great question. This is also addressed a little bit in the book "It's Never Wrong To Do the Right Thing."

And the story that I surround it with is Abigail's story. And she was married to Nabal, the narcissist, Nabal probably the abuser more than likely. But I would say to her, that woman, my sister who may be listening in, that the best thing you can do first of all is to cry out to God and then to run for help. Abigail ran for help. But she had the mind of Christ in doing so because she was like, okay, what do I do? And she was able to think quickly and had a plan that she'd put together and then she executed that plan.

So my encouragement to you would be to reach out for godly help. Reach out to Christ first, call -- even if it's, "Jesus, I need help." "Lord, help me. Give me wisdom." And ask for it and believe by faith he will, and then do what he puts in your heart and your mind to do. You might need to call a pastor. It might be you need to reach out to a grandmother, a counselor, the police. You need to get help, you need -- for the safety of you and your household.

And this is also what the story of Abigail in the Bible shows us. Abigail decided, I'm not going to go along with the dangerous decisions that are being made for my household. It's going to bring death to all of us. And so she ran interference and God gave her victory.

We see the antithesis in the New Testament with Ananias and Sapphira. There may not have been abuse, but it was a dangerous decision because the wife went along with the foolishness and the ungodliness that she knew was in error against God. She went along with it and it became destruction for she and her husband.

And so we are called to be Abigails. We are called to stand up in the face of evil, even when it means I cannot side with my spouse, because I love God more. We're not being disrespectful, we're not dishonoring. We're honoring the Lord and what he has said and what he has called us to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, thus the title "It Is Never Wrong To Do the Right Thing." And so you mentioned seeking help. Maybe it's a pastor, maybe it's a counselor or grandma. Okay? So in your situation, were there people who supported and inspired you through that difficult time?

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. God gave me great sister girls during that time. And he gave me family. And it was their hands, it was their extra bedrooms at times. It was their, you know, car picking me up from the hospital. It was their words of encouragement that carried me through. It was their listening ears. Now, some of my girlfriends were going through the same thing. Some of them had gone through the same thing. And we were all loving Jesus. And some of our counterparts professed to love Jesus too. But God sent them to help me.

And then he also gave me a mom that -- you know, I have a whole chapter dedicated to her. It's, you know, "A Shero Named Mom." And a lot of us may have mother figures if we don't have a mom like her. She spoke truth into my life. She was a steady. Even when I made wrong decisions, Mom never put it back in my face saying, you know, You got yourself in it, get yourself out and then come talk with me. No. Mom was full of grace and mercy. She covered me, she prayed for me.

And for a while she pretended that she did not know, but she was talking to him on the other side, telling him, I dare you to put -- you know. But didn't let me know until afterwards because -- you know, so God gave me great women and great men, my dad.

You know, my dad has always been a peacemaker. But he was there to receive me back and to say, We're here for you, that we're covering you. And so I am grateful for the unsung heroes that are among us, that sometimes we fail to acknowledge as much as they deserve. And my prayer is that not only will we see them and honor them, but that eventually, Jennifer, all of us will become heroes and sheroes too for someone else.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, that's what I was just about to ask you. So you've got this faith-filled family tree, and clearly, you know, you've been supported by them, influenced by them. I'm curious what you've learned from them. Like, what is it that has been downloaded into your DNA that you've learned from observation, from your experience when they have given you grace, et cetera? What have you learned from them that you transfer now to your relationships?

Nicole C. Mullen: Wow. I have learned, I will say, practical, steady, faithful faith from my family members. Like, really just that consistent faith in believing God for what he said, but that manifests itself in practical everyday ways. It's not just a faith that is just on its knees praying, but it's a faith that gets up and has hands and eyes and feet and a voice, and it stays true and consistent until it actually sees the manifestation of what it is that it's believing for.

And so I've seen that in my parents, I've seen that in my grandparents. It's a baton that they've passed on to me. And I love it when I talk to my three children and I see them holding on to that same baton, carrying it forward.

And for me -- you know, my dad, one of his favorite songs before he went to heaven was by Steve Green, and it was "may all who come behind us find us faithful." And that was what he lived by. That's what my mom lives by. That's what they have sewn into our hearts, to be faithful in faith to Christ, because Christ has been faithful to us.

And so that's also what I see in the book that I've written. That's what I want to highlight to other people, that faith is the foundation for our right decisions. Faith in Christ is our best foundation. And then from there, we can do the exploits that he's called us to do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And faith is not always big drama.

Nicole C. Mullen: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: Faith is daily, you know?

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what, Nicole? I did not know this about your dad. That was my daddy's song that he wanted at his funeral.

Nicole C. Mullen: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Nicole C. Mullen: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: May those who come behind us find us faithful.

Nicole C. Mullen: Can I say this really quickly?

Jennifer Rothschild: Uh-huh.

Nicole C. Mullen: Is that at his funeral -- my dad never met Steve Green, even though I know Steve. I asked Steve if he would come and sing it at my dad's funeral, and he did.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's wonderful.

Nicole C. Mullen: And it was just -- yeah. So your dad and my dad had great taste.

Jennifer Rothschild: They sure did. And I bet they are talking in heaven about their girls.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's what I bet.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. They're cutting up. Yes. You're right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that, Nicole.

Okay. So it's obvious how God has used your family to -- these heroes and sheroes in your family to influence faith in you. But I'm curious about someone I read about. Okay. Elizabeth Freeman. So I want you to tell us who she is. But also, Nicole is not just a singer, she's not just an author, but she is an actress. Because you played her in the movie "American Miracle." So I want to know who Elizabeth Freeman is, and then you got to talk about this movie and what you did in it.

Nicole C. Mullen: Okay. Thank you. Okay, so Elizabeth Freeman was a shero I had never heard about until the producers of the movie "The American Miracle" -- you can see it now because it's out and about -- they called me to ask me if I would play her part. And so I had to, of course, go educate myself. And they educated me on her even more so.

But she was a slave who lived in the 1700s. And she lived in Massachusetts. And she had heard her master and one of his friends and some other guys -- one of his friends was a lawyer. They had written something called the Sheffield Resolves because they were wanting to be free from the tyranny of England, and so they had put in there that all men were created equal and independent of each other. And so she heard that.

And then later on, a few years later, she heard something else that was crafted from, like, the influence of the Sheffield Resolves called the Declaration of Independence. So in 1776 she's hearing now the language. She can't read, but she can retain. And she hears that all men are created equal and independent of each other, and she's thinking, okay, that's the second time. And then she hears it again the third time when her state designs their Constitution and it has the same thing, all men are created equal.

So eventually, after an altercation with her mistress, she runs away. And she goes to the lawyer that's a friend of her master who helped write the Sheffield Resolves. And she asked him, she said, "So I've heard these things. But am I all-mankind?" Basically, should I not qualify? Like, you wanted freedom from England. I want freedom from slavery too. And so the lawyer, he heard her out and he decided to take her case.

So they took her case before a judge and jury, and all of them unanimously agreed that she should be granted her freedom, and they gave it to her with backpay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Nicole C. Mullen: And so she eventually became a nanny and a businesswoman. She bought her own home, she did good in the community. And two years after she was granted her freedom, Jennifer, all of the slaves in Massachusetts were granted their freedom. And this was about -- almost 100 years before all of the slaves in America would be free. But what stood out to me is that had she not heard, retained, and inquired and asked for her freedom, it would not have been granted to her. She would have died a slave.

And so it awakened me to the fact that there are things that God has already said yes for me, for you, for us, that -- we have to make our request. We have to say, Lord, I'm laying ahold of this, and I'm going to believe you with tenacity until I actually see it come about. I'm going to bug you. I'm going to come before you. I'm going to remind you of what the Word says. Not because you're being stingy, but because I heard it and I'm putting my faith with what you've already said. And so he tells us to ask. Said if you ask, you will receive. If you seek, you will find. If you knock, the door will be open.

And I think sometimes we want to receive without asking. We want the door to be open without knocking. We want to find without seeking. And he says, no, we have to put works with our faith. And that's what Elizabeth did. And so it just encouraged me to up my game, to up my requests. You know, it encouraged me to lay ahold of freedom for myself and for other people and just really, when I hear it, to act upon what I hear. The Bible says faith comes by hearing. And hearing what? Hearing the Word of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: The Word of God, yeah. Girl, that is so powerful. Thank you, Lord, for Elizabeth Freeman. She had courage. She really had courage.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So here's a hard question. And if you don't want to answer it, we're going to edit it out.

Nicole C. Mullen: Ask. Ask.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right. So you're an African-American woman. I'm a white woman. I am so deeply disturbed and disgusted by slavery in our nation. I mean, totally disgusted. So was that particularly difficult for you as an African-American woman, knowing that we still have a long way to go in our country, to play a slave? What was that like for you emotionally?

Nicole C. Mullen: That's a really good question. You know, it's so interesting because I guess you would probably think -- or maybe one would think that, you know, playing a slave as an African-American would make me feel just enraged.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Nicole C. Mullen: But actually, for some reason I think because I know the outcome, I knew the outcome, my chin was raised and my shoulders went back. And it was like this is where we were, but this is not where I'm at.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

Nicole C. Mullen: So because of that, when I would sit in a movie theater and I'd hear the music change and I'd feel the mood, you know, go sour, I could hold on to hope because I knew this has a good outcome. This is going to end well.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know how the story ends, yeah.

Nicole C. Mullen: I know how the story ends.

And the same is true for us in our lives. There are twists and turns. There's trauma and there's drama. Like, you asked me, you know, the one word that I would describe my life in, and I said -- you and I were talking prior to, I said I'm under construction. But it's an under construction that is hopeful because I know how my story ends. I don't know all the details, but I know it ends with me in Christ. It ends with me in eternity with him. It ends with love, joy, peace, patience. You know, it ends with greatness.

And so the rest of it -- you know, like it says over in Romans 8, for the sufferings of this present time, they're not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us, Jennifer. Therefore, we can live a courageous life.

Jennifer Rothschild: We can. And I'm just going to say, that glory that will be revealed is not just what happens on the other side. I see it in you right now, my sister, I really do. There is a glory that has been revealed. I love you. I appreciate your honesty there. That's super impactful to me personally.

Nicole C. Mullen: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. So I think you're one of the sheroes. But let's go to some biblical ones. Okay? You already mentioned Abigail.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so in your book, of course, you talk about several women, like Abigail, Rahab, you know, that made hard decisions that required lots of courage.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm curious how these ancient women -- you just showed us in Abigail -- can really help us modern women make good wise decisions. So I don't know if you want to go more into Abigail, or you want to talk about Rahab, but give us another picture of that.

Nicole C. Mullen: Yes. Well, I love Rahab as well. Rahab was my make-a-deal girl. You know, she knew how to make a deal. And we need deal makers in business, in our families, in our relationships, in our health. She made a deal, and the deal turned out to be effective in the sense of it gave life to her and her whole family because she was able to seize the moment, see what needed to be done. She was able to side with the God of the universe and his people, not with her own people.

She said, No. You know what? I'm willing to trade in my own culture for the Kingdom, for another culture, the culture of God. And I think that's also something we have to reckon with too, Jennifer. You know, before I am even an African-American, I'm Kingdom of God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you are.

Nicole C. Mullen: Jesus said it too. When his family members came and they were like, you know, "We want to talk to Jesus," his mother, his brothers, his sisters, he was like, I'm not trying to diss my mom and my sisters and brothers, but really these right here, the ones who do the work of my Father, the Kingdom citizens, they are my family first. And so my point is, Rahab was able to make a deal because she was willing to be born again into another family, the family of God. So I love her. And she's one of my sheroes.

Jochebed. Jochebed was --

Jennifer Rothschild: Now, who's that?

Nicole C. Mullen: Oh, I love her. Now, she's one of those unsung heroes that we all know her child, but very few know her. But when the government gave a mandate to kill all the firstborn sons in Egypt, Jochebed was a Hebrew woman. And she said, "You know what? I'm not going to do it. Like, I'm just not going to do it."

And so she had a little baby boy. He was cute, he was smart, and he was a good little boy. But she was like, "He's three months now, he's" -- he was probably getting a little noisy. And she said, "Now, I'm not going to kill him, like we're told. I'm not going to drown him in the Nile as it was commanded." But she said, "I'm going to make him a little ark, kind of like Noah's ark. And I'm going to cover it with pitch on the outside so it's buoyant. And I'm going to put him in the Nile in the boat and I'm going to have my daughter follow it to see where it lands, and I'm going to pray that God protects him."

Long story short, God protects this baby. He winds up being rescued by Pharaoh's daughter, the princess, and she has mercy and she has compassion on him. And she's like, "Oh, this is one of the Hebrew babies," and she pulls him out. And then the little sister -- or the big sister to the little baby, she comes up to the princess and she says, "Would you like for me to find a Hebrew nursemaid for you to take care of the baby?" And the princess is like, "Absolutely." So the little girl goes home and she gets her own mama, Jochebed. And Jochebed now is nursing this baby. And she's getting paid because the princess said, "I'm going to pay you to do it."

So the same baby that the princess's father, the Pharaoh, had commanded to be killed is now the same baby that the princess is now going to pay Jochebed to take care of. And eventually, after she has nursed the baby, she gives the baby back to the princess, who adopts the child, and she names him Moses. She says, "Because I drew him out of the water." And eventually we know God uses this Moses to deliver millions of his people out of slavery to go to the Promised Land. And he also gives this same Moses the Ten Commandments that our Western civilization, the laws that we have, are built upon.

Jennifer Rothschild: Miracle.

Nicole C. Mullen: And so it would not have happened had we not had the courage and the right decision of a mother that is an unsung hero named Jochebed, had she not had cooperation from a daughter that looked out for him, and a princess who adopted him as her own. And so this has been a part of the encouragement in my family. And I've seen the legacy of adoption played out by them, and also by me, because of also the example of a woman named Jochebed.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's incredible. And, you know, when you describe that, there's moms listening, and grandmothers listening, just -- Moses' sister behaved just like the mama, with the same ingenuity and, "Hey, you need a Hebrew nursemaid? I got one." Like, that doesn't happen by accident. That's because so much of who we are is caught by our children and grandchildren. Not just taught. Taught matters too. But it's going to be caught.

Nicole C. Mullen: Caught. Absolutely. I say it all the time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. That's a good word right there. Oh, man, Nicole. Okay. I could talk to you forever. We're going to get to our last question, though. But I know that our 4:13ers are feeling like me, so inspired and so grateful. But here's our last question.

Okay. So your personal life, you have moved from some regret, obviously, to some incredible renewal. So I want you to explain that process. Because we can hear a story and think, boom, music changes, new scene, everything's cool. Okay? So you move from regret to this beautiful sense of renewal in your life. So tell us what that process was like, and then end with giving us some hope. If someone has found themselves in a situation where, like, man, I made some bad decisions, how do I get out of it and what does that process look like for me?

Nicole C. Mullen: Okay. Well, thank you for asking that question. And I want to frame the hope before I even tell the story a little bit. Not in a person or a status -- because sometimes we can think, okay, I've been single, I've been divorced, I've been a single mom, been married again, the whole nine, and the hope is a status of X, Y, and Z. But my hope, honestly, is Christ. Because the rest is changeable. Whether it's through death, divorce, separation, whether it's through -- whatever it might be. A bad choice that was not mine to make.

And so I have gone through the peaks and the valleys, but my steady has been Christ. And so at the end of the day -- because if I give you any other hope, then you think the carrot may not be attainable for you. You may think that I can only have hope when I get whatever she has, or whatever Jennifer has, or someone else has, instead of I can have hope now, I can have victory now, I can have joy now. And I've experienced my greatest joys oftentimes in the midst of my greatest disappointments.

I am currently living in a season where I've been disappointed. I've been disappointed. But guess what? I have great hope. And not hope in what I want to happen, but I have hope in Christ. And so it's that hope that defies all other odds. It defies the enemy. It's the mantra of what I sing and I started singing 25 years ago, I know my Redeemer lives. The one who buys back my pain, my shame, and my heartache.

Because life does have peaks and valleys. Ask my mom. She was successfully married to my dad for 54 years, 5 months, and 16 days, and he went to see Jesus, you know. They had a great marriage. But things change. But her hope never changed. Her faith never changed because Christ never changed. And he is our ultimate champion.

And so I've gone through abuse, betrayal, abandonment, heartache, but I've also gone through triumph and victory and grace and peace and joy and love, success. The Lord has taken me around the world singing for him. I've met millions and millions of people that have celebrated what the Lord has done in their lives personally because of the loaves and the fish that he's multiplied through me. But it's for his glory and for our good.

And so at the end of the day, he's my champion and he is my hope. And not only mine, but he's your hope. He's your champion. He is the apex of all of our stories. And he walks us from this life to the next, and he gives us victory here before we have victory there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Yep. Actually, double wow. Okay? So did you hear her powerful words, our friends? Hope is not in a status or in a person. Hope is Christ. The rest is changeable. Oh, but Jesus, he is not changeable.

KC Wright: Yes. And Nicole made sure to point out that there will be peaks and valleys, but Jesus, only Jesus, stays the same. You can have hope right now because you have Christ right now. And she said that her greatest joys are often experienced in the midst of her greatest disappointments. So true.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: You need her book. Go to the Show Notes now at 413podcast.com/384 to get a copy and read the full transcript.

Plus, you need to share this, because you and I both know somebody who desperately needs to hear what Nicole shared today. So go to the Show Notes and share. Or just go to the podcast platform where you're listening right now and hit "share."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We're also going to have a link -- KC and I were just talking about this -- to this incredible -- it's almost like an oratory kind of musical drama thing she does --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- Nicole does, called "The God Who Sees," that she did with Kathie Lee Gifford. Okay, it is stunning. We will have a link to that also on our Show Notes.

But when you are on your -- sorry. I should have had more coffee before we started. When you are on your podcast platform, wherever you're doing that to share, also it will be super easy for you to leave a review, so why don't you go ahead and do that.

Okay. Also, one more thing I wanted to let you know, that Nicole's book is on Audible. You heard that velvety voice -- right? -- as we just talked. Don't you want to hear that velvety voice read her book to you?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you do. So we're going to link directly to Audible also on the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/384.

All right, our people, our dearly loved people, remember that Jesus is your hope. He is the apex, as Nicole said, of all of our stories. And so you can have victory here even before you have victory there. Why? Because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Also, one more last thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: What?

KC Wright: We have links to other Nicole podcasts.

Jennifer Rothschild: We do.

KC Wright: One with Jo Dee Messina spilling the beans.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes. Yes.

KC Wright: So we'll link all that as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: We've got so much Nicole for you, you're about to have a good week, our friends.